I'm 4 months on T and my face and all passes I'm pretty sure...I pass as a 14 year old, 16 at most due to my height and baby face (that even my dad has). I have pretty male mannerisms, always have since I was a young kid...elementary school. But I'm resizing the more femenine things, especially in my voice and the way I talk.
Passing tips and male mannerisms? Advice on anything is appreciated. Like what do you do?
One thing I've noticed that men say to one another often and that women don't seem to say at all is "I appreciate it." or just "Appreciate it."
Dealing with store clerks, waiters, professional interactions... Any time one transacts any kind of business. Maybe it's just where I live. Ionno.
Also i don't think I've ever heard the word "pretty" pass a man's lips, except maybe when talking to a small female child.
Quote from: Christopher_Marius on November 21, 2012, 05:44:12 PM
Also i don't think I've ever heard the word "pretty" pass a man's lips, except maybe when talking to a small female child.
I think men sometimes say "pretty" in terms of "that's pretty sweet" etc.
Men tend to say things like "buddy", or "mate" or whatever word is common in your area. I would die of happiness if someone called me "ba", or said "yes ba" to me, and sometimes almost use it myself but I don't have the accent to pull it off (it's sort of a regional term for mate or boy here).
In the U.K. "cheers" is more common than "thank-you" from men, not sure about in the US, it might not even be used there. Men tend to be a lot more blunt than women in there speech I think.
I've never seen a woman spit, but that's a pretty disgusting habit. As for another habit, men seem to smoke rollys more than straights than women -- that might just be because the men I know earn less than the women I know (hows that for anti-sexism? :P )
Men tend to put their hands in their pockets more often as well simply because they have big enough pockets to put their hands in.
It's all pretty regional, so I'd just suggest looking at what guys your age do.
men extend their hand to shake hands first. also men say "thanks man" women do not. men tend to not face each other when talking they usually are perpendicular to one another or side by side. men dont touch one another, a girl and a guy touch girls touch each other, but guys dont. when guys do touch each other its usually with the back of the hand not the palm, like to get another guys attention a guy will tap him on the shoulder will the back of his hand. guys tend to keep it brief and will use as few words as posible to comunicate their point.
thats about it ill add to it if i think of any more.
Quote from: Alex000000 on November 21, 2012, 06:00:29 PM
I think men sometimes say "pretty" in terms of "that's pretty sweet" etc.
I think it was pretty obvious what was meant.
Women tend to give the ends of their sentences a bit of an inflection, while men keep it more flat/monotone.
Most things would depend on your region, and also what kind of environment that you're in--there's going to be differences in just haning out at a bar somewhere and a professional environment.
I think it's usually just best to just sit somewhere and quietly observe people.
Quote from: Alex000000 on November 21, 2012, 06:00:29 PM
In the U.K. "cheers" is more common than "thank-you" from men, not sure about in the US, it might not even be used there. Men tend to be a lot more blunt than women in there speech I think.
The only people I hear say "cheers" in the US are people who are obsessed with BBC America or theater majors.
Um, pardon my French, but I think that the only guy mannerism is not giving a f***. Guys can sit with their legs apart, leaning back on their chairs, and basically do anything else that is more comfortable, mainly because they don't have to suit the whole barbie-doll stereotype women have to deal with. Honestly, do you think some women sit with their legs together, perfectly erect, and poised because they like it?
Quote from: DianaP on November 21, 2012, 10:02:13 PM
Um, pardon my French, but I think that the only guy mannerism is not giving a f***. Guys can sit with their legs apart, leaning back on their chairs, and basically do anything else that is more comfortable, mainly because they don't have to suit the whole barbie-doll stereotype women have to deal with. Honestly, do you think some women sit with their legs together, perfectly erect, and poised because they like it?
I think there's times when men can't just not give a f***, and it wouldn't be acceptable for them to lean all over the place and sit with their legs widely spread. In job interviews, formal meetings, etc. I think it would be inappropriate to slouch and sit with your legs too wide. In general, men can get away with a lot more than women but times are changing, especially in more informal environments. I think women can sit more comfortably now than before and people don't think too much about it. In job interviews, meetings, etc. women have a higher standard than men to live up to when it comes to mannerisms, and I hate how women aren't seen as powerful/good managers if they don't wear tasteful makeup to work or fit in with other expectations and stereotypes.
And, I do think some women sit with their legs together and poised because they like it-of course not all women. Back when I was trying to pass more as a man, I would try to force myself to sit with my legs apart and take up more room, but I found it uncomfortable. I think sitting with my legs crossed (either in the girly way of crossing or the more masculine way) is much more comfortable, and though I tend to have horrible posture, I like sitting straight and poised most of the time since I think it makes it more comfortable over time to type all day or to drive for long periods, I feel more powerful and assertive sitting/standing straight, and it makes me less afraid that I am going to end up with a horrible hunchback once I get old.
Ok, don't take me so seriously, I was messing around for the most part. :laugh: I was poking fun at how silly it is to focus on "male" mannerisms and your comments about appropriateness of situation//personal preference rather than gender conformity only work for that point.
Quote from: anibioman on November 21, 2012, 06:09:26 PM
men extend their hand to shake hands first. also men say "thanks man" women do not. men tend to not face each other when talking they usually are perpendicular to one another or side by side. men dont touch one another, a girl and a guy touch girls touch each other, but guys dont. when guys do touch each other its usually with the back of the hand not the palm, like to get another guys attention a guy will tap him on the shoulder will the back of his hand. guys tend to keep it brief and will use as few words as posible to comunicate their point.
That's all horrible. Probably mostly true but horrible.
When in doubt scratch your neither regions. When you fart make it a major production. Always be drinking. Belch as often as you can. Criminal records are not a bad thing. And when in doubt as to what you should say - of even if its not in doubt - go with: "You're saying that like I should care."
If you do some typical male things and don't pass it just screws with people's minds. >:-)
For instance, males nod to each other and not to women. Nodding to them annoys them. I also think saying "thanks man" is upsetting. I feel males are more informal to each other than they are to women. I feel these things are rather interesting probably make a good sociological study.
BTW, I think some ways women sit aren't really less comfortable, they are just different. I have never worried too much what other people think, but now i am trying to teach myself to sit differently. I don't find it really more comfortable. (Some things are just kind of practical-- if you wear a skirt opening your legs will let some idiot look up the skirt.)
They might not be comfortable to you, Diana, in all seriousness, as you just are less used to them. Or maybe they have more to do with your size.
--Jay J
Quote from: DianaP on November 21, 2012, 10:50:09 PM
Ok, don't take me so seriously, I was messing around for the most part. :laugh: I was poking fun at how silly it is to focus on "male" mannerisms and your comments about appropriateness of situation//personal preference rather than gender conformity only work for that point.
I apologize if I sounded angry, and if my posts don't make much sense. :) I just usually feel strongly when I think people are saying that men have little standards to live up to. Also, I am just a serious person most of the time, I can't help it, it's just who I am. I do think focusing on "male" or even "female" mannerisms can seem silly, because everyone should just do what makes them comfortable, and acting in accordance with these expectations further fuels gender conformity; but I realize that when someone is trying to pass as one gender, they sometimes have to do what's typically expected for that gender if passing is that important to them, at least until they reach a physical stage where people wouldn't question them. I also feel like the barbie-doll stereotype is more strongly enforced upon women by other women, so sometimes it just mind boggles me when some women get peeved at men because they perceive men as having less to live up to. (I wasn't thinking you were peeved at men, I did realize that you weren't being serious, I just think outloud sometimes, and I am getting a little tired so my words weren't the most articulate but I can't go to bed yet since I have something in the oven.)
I'm not one to conform to the stereotypes also because I like the way I am and some of the slightly femme things I do (which isn't even much). It's just for passing purposes at this point. Thanks guys.
The difference between typical male and female inflection has been touched on already in this thread... but there's one other difference in speech patterns that ought to be mentioned: men give orders; women try to get other people to like them.
If you listen to typical male speech patterns, they're very direct, to-the-point and decisive. He's not trying to get you to like him or (necessarily) agree with him; he's simply asserting himself and telling you how it is. If necessary, he'll use humour to deflect any apparent offence.
Typical female speech patterns use a choice of words, tone of voice, and questioning intonation to make them sound a little unsure of what they're saying because they don't want to hurt your feelings; their main aim is to get you to like them so you'll agree with them. If they try to use humour, it often falls flat.
So the typical male speech pattern is very matter-of-fact and the female speech pattern is rather more emotional.
This has always been a problem for me because I've always had a very typical male speech pattern (due to my Asperger's) which meant that people who saw me as female would find me quite rude. But in actual fact I was much more polite than my brother, who wasn't seen as rude.
When it comes to mannerisms: when women walk they lead from the chest; when men walk they lead from the hips and they assume more space for themselves than women do. You'll know you're getting it right when you notice that women practically walk into you - it'll mean they're presuming you'll get out of their way like most guys do. ;)
Quote from: aleon515 on November 21, 2012, 11:28:34 PM
BTW, I think some ways women sit aren't really less comfortable, they are just different. I have never worried too much what other people think, but now i am trying to teach myself to sit differently. I don't find it really more comfortable. (Some things are just kind of practical-- if you wear a skirt opening your legs will let some idiot look up the skirt.)
I used to cross my legs like this, in a more traditional male-style. There is a totally practical reason for this. It doesn't smoosh your junk. And if you're wearing a packer, you might find it more practical as well.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FANqTs.png&hash=3d939a4b9d4f22cb5080fb0a0aad0028b9e3a9ea)
However, I retrained myself to cross my legs in a more traditional female-style even though it's not as comfortable on the junk and might even require a dramatic and ungraceful re-positioning (hopefully when no one's looking). The reason? Because I was actually getting callouses on the top of my thighs where my leg was sitting and I really didn't like them. They faded reasonably quickly when I stopped. I was only mildly self-conscious about this looking more feminine because I am gay, after-all. So I look more gay (the guy in this pic is openly gay, btw). So what?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqvPRW.jpg&hash=83f169ac5129f91641ed0939e54c685f29e5a71f)
Quote from: dalebert on November 22, 2012, 10:40:51 AM
I used to cross my legs like this, in a more traditional male-style. There is a totally practical reason for this. It doesn't smoosh your junk. And if you're wearing a packer, you might find it more practical as well.
I'd love to be able to sit in that more masculine style - but my hips are gynaecoid (i.e. they flare quite widely) and I'm slightly knock-kneed - so it's
very painful for me to sit like that. That more feminine seating style would be comfortable for my hips & knees, but I'm trying to disassociate myself from femaleness.
So instead I cross them at the ankles, or just spread 'em. :P
Quote from: aleon515 on November 21, 2012, 11:28:34 PM
If you do some typical male things and don't pass it just screws with people's minds. >:-)
For instance, males nod to each other and not to women. Nodding to them annoys them. I also think saying "thanks man" is upsetting. I feel males are more informal to each other than they are to women. I feel these things are rather interesting probably make a good sociological study.
BTW, I think some ways women sit aren't really less comfortable, they are just different. I have never worried too much what other people think, but now i am trying to teach myself to sit differently. I don't find it really more comfortable. (Some things are just kind of practical-- if you wear a skirt opening your legs will let some idiot look up the skirt.)
They might not be comfortable to you, Diana, in all seriousness, as you just are less used to them. Or maybe they have more to do with your size.
Ok, once again, I was not being serious about any stereotypes (Then again, I can't sit with my legs perfectly together due to my external genitalia, but that's beside the point). I am just saying that over-thinking everything won't make people think you are male//female, so much as just a weird person trying to overcompensate.
Quote from: Brayden on November 22, 2012, 04:18:31 AM
I'm not one to conform to the stereotypes also because I like the way I am and some of the slightly femme things I do (which isn't even much). It's just for passing purposes at this point. Thanks guys.
If it makes you feel better, if that's you in your avatar photo, I think you look plenty male, albeit a pretty-boy male.
Quote from: DianaP on November 22, 2012, 12:08:03 PM
If it makes you feel better, if that's you in your avatar photo, I think you look plenty male, albeit a pretty-boy male.
I agree--a cute young guy. Are you having passing issues?
Thanks :) and yeah just getting shed a lot more than usual lately. I generally pass rather well, always have (thankfully). Yeah im thinking its my voice tho. And my height.
Ok, I think you may just be paranoid. MTFs don't necessarily have voice issues as bad as MTFs because guys today have all sorts of voices, from the gruff man-voice to the femme voice some guys talk with, whereas if a lady were to speak with a deep voice like a man's, she'd be immediately recognized as trans. I guess it's a benefit of having less awareness of FTM transsexuals? ???
I can't describe the femme guy voice I brought up except with saying that it's the stereotypical gay guy voice, which is nonetheless accepted as a male's voice, albeit a weird one. Do you get what I'm trying to say?
Yes guys nod to each other but NEVER make eye contact or smile as a -response- to another guy. As a MTF it took me a long time to unlearn the "nod reflex". Open doors for women never hurts either :) Guys stand very differently than women, most have pretty bad posture. Also guys like "space" around them so don't ever stand or sit close to other people unless there is no other option, note guys usually try to take up as much space as possible. And of course NEVER touch another guy for any reason.
Geez, Stephe, I must be a real girl, because I violated every one of those rules! :laugh:
But seriously, never smile? No eye contact? Never touch?
What if someone tells you a joke? What else are you supposed to look at? What if he needs CPR?
Ah, I am so delightfully annoying. ::)
What? No BroHug, no terrorist fist bumps, no proper handshake? And everyone I know smiles all the time, perhaps we just like our lives.
Quote from: DianaP on November 22, 2012, 04:14:03 PM
Geez, Stephe, I must be a real girl, because I violated every one of those rules! :laugh:
But seriously, never smile? No eye contact? Never touch?
What if someone tells you a joke? What else are you supposed to look at? What if he needs CPR?
Ah, I am so delightfully annoying. ::)
Of course guys smile and laugh etc *sigh*
I'm talking about walking down the street in public around strangers. Guys don't -look- each other in the eye and smile at each other like women do. They glance and nod. Of course personal friends etc don't follow these "rules" but for example a guy wouldn't stand close to another guy in an elevator unless there wasn't enough room. Guys as a rule don't do things like touch another guy on the arm in conversation. Or sit extra close next to a guy they are talking to. Very few guys hug other guys as a casual hello unless they are very close friends and even then not too often.
The op asked for examples of male mannerisms, I hope they have enough sense to know not to be so extreme in their use...
I'm not going to act 'male'. That destroys the whole point of transsion. I do not have any 'girly' ways of acting I need to cover up with 'male' acting anyway.
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on November 22, 2012, 05:37:14 PM
I'm not going to act 'male'. That destroys the whole point of transsion. I do not have any 'girly' ways of acting I need to cover up with 'male' acting anyway.
YES YES YES. I completely agree. I read all the 'tips' I can find, they're so subjective. I feel like my mannerisms as a male, albeit not a bio-male, should speak for themselves... If only my gumption and mannerisms could make up for my hips...
Quote from: Liam Erik on November 22, 2012, 09:09:53 PM
When I was little, people like my classmates, extended family and an array of church ladies didn't appreciate how masculine my mannerisms were. In order to make my life just a tad easier, I learned a few simple little things to do to make the annoyed looks and corrections go away. Now I can't begin to remember what they all were, and I've been doing them long enough I don't necessarily notice them, so I find topics like this useful in re-locating and eradicating as many as I can. I'm not changing myself to suit a standard of masculinity. I'm de-programming myself back to what actually does feel right and congruent. For me, habitual is not the same as natural.
The whole point of transition is to make yourself more comfortable. If adapting your mannerisms makes you more comfortable, then in my opinion it doesn't contradict the purpose of transition at all.
+1 for this. Most of this stuff is learned behavior from watching others, it's social conditioning. It's like speech patterns, people aren't born with male or female speech patterns, they learn them. Given some of these are different from region to region, I don't think you are born with them either.
Like you said, the whole point of transition is to be comfortable and happy. I have gotten a LOT of very useful tips from other women that have helped me fit better into my new gender. Clearly I don't fit as the 'stereotypical dainty women' when I show up for a neighborhood cleaning day with a big chainsaw :P I'm not so obsessed that I pretend I can't do things I can still do etc just because it isn't something you normally see a woman doing. But I also like to be seen as a woman and so this learned behavior, for some people, has to be reprogrammed when you change from one gender to the other. It surely doesn't "destroy transition" if someone does this.
I know about the "guy nod" as I have been greeted this way a few times since presenting more male. The stranger male will nod and you nod back. The funny thing about it to me is that I think that it might start at a bit of a distance, so that btw the time that the guy has realized I am not exactly what he thinks I am he has already committed the guy nod. I can almost hear him thinking, "I can't take away the damn guy nod!!"
I have also purposefully given the guy nod out.
>:-)
It is mild bits of genderf***ing that I can do given as I don't pass.
BTW, I go to a ftm support group, maybe it is that the body language isn't quite "guy" but I feel like I am in a group of gay guys, even though most of the group is not really gay.
--Jay J
Oh to bring this into perspective >:-)
A friend is pregnant and she is close to term, meeting her people (woman) ask the usual female questions which I won't bore you with. I was present when someone asked her partner how he was looking forward to the birth etc. His reply "I just want to know when I can have sex again" and he wasn't joking. >:-)
I think one of the worst things someone can do when trying to pass is over thinking the whole thing. People will pick up on the fact that you are trying to "act" and they will start to question why that is if you're making an over the top effort to change your natural behaviors.
As much as it sucks to admit there are just things in transition that take hormones and time to accomplish when it comes to fully passing.
Just be true to yourself and keep working at your personal goals. Everything else will fall into place.
I've just remembered one other thing that I do: it's something I've done since I was 10 years old so I don't even think about it any more, but here goes.
I have the most extreme type of female hips: gynaecoid hips. That means I have wide, flaring hip bones that produce a sharp contrast between the width of my hips and the natural position of my feet. As a result, my natural gait should involve a lot of typical feminine hip-sway.
I noticed this when my hips started to flare at age 10, and I decided to negate the sway by simply walking with my feet further apart. So if I walk with my feet just under shoulder-width apart it cancels out the sway and my walk looks much more masculine.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on November 23, 2012, 09:24:09 AMSo if I walk with my feet just under shoulder-width apart it cancels out the sway and my walk looks much more masculine.
Woah woah, this actually works? I absolutely have to try this.
Quote from: AscendantDevon on November 23, 2012, 10:04:30 AM
Woah woah, this actually works? I absolutely have to try this.
Yup, it totally does. It completely changes your gait. :)
Quote from: Simon on November 23, 2012, 03:04:31 AM
As much as it sucks to admit there are just things in transition that take hormones and time to accomplish when it comes to fully passing.
Interesting, I was living full time and had no real problems 'passing' for 3 years with -no- HRT. I didn't realize HRT changed mannerisms, how we walk, body language and other learned behavior!
Quote from: FTMDiaries on November 23, 2012, 09:24:09 AM
I've just remembered one other thing that I do: it's something I've done since I was 10 years old so I don't even think about it any more, but here goes.
I have the most extreme type of female hips: gynaecoid hips. That means I have wide, flaring hip bones that produce a sharp contrast between the width of my hips and the natural position of my feet. As a result, my natural gait should involve a lot of typical feminine hip-sway.
I noticed this when my hips started to flare at age 10, and I decided to negate the sway by simply walking with my feet further apart. So if I walk with my feet just under shoulder-width apart it cancels out the sway and my walk looks much more masculine.
Yes this should work, for a male to walk more like a female, one of the key things is to keep your feet closer together so the opposite would probably be true. The other thing is guys "lead" with their foot (swing foot out more), women lead with their upper thigh (push upper thigh out more). It changes your gait which one you lead with.
Quote from: Stephe on November 22, 2012, 10:55:00 PM
Clearly I don't fit as the 'stereotypical dainty women' when I show up for a neighborhood cleaning day with a big chainsaw :P
Yeah! Can you come to my house cleaning tomorrow? There will be pizza and beer! :)
Okay, I always thought that gender-based mannerisms are silly. I agree that you should do what makes you more comfortable, but that doesn't have to mean following "male" mannerisms; disregard the gender of what you're doing and just do what you like.
As proof that gender-based roles are irrelevant, take this: One of my friends saw that his GIRLfriend was listening to Crush 40's music, playing video games, and talking about football like a stereotypical MALE, and he said (and I quote), "I have never loved you more than I have right now."
I'm sure the same could apply to guys. ::)
I think that T is a bit more important in transition for ftms than estrogen is for mtfs.
Without T, after a certain age, most ftms will never pass regardless of how much knowledge of body language, etc. I've heard of mtfs passing without it.
--Jay J
I have a lesbian friend who is in their 50's, has never been on T and other than her voice, she easily could pass for a man. She isn't trans and really isn't trying to look like a guy but she does. And IMHO most of it is how she carries herself, her mannerisms etc.
I do believe saying things like "Without T, after a certain age, most ftms will never pass" is simply incorrect and I hear the exact same thing on the MTF side. People think "I can take this pill/shot and transform without doing anything else", it's wishful thinking for most people. Yes HRT helps but that isn't the end of it.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on November 23, 2012, 09:24:09 AM
So if I walk with my feet just under shoulder-width apart it cancels out the sway and my walk looks much more masculine.
That's how I've always just naturally walked, and I am usually described as walking like a caveman (not like there's anything I find wrong with that :) ). Probably due to my bad posture...
Quote from: Stephe on November 23, 2012, 10:40:21 PM
I have a lesbian friend who is in their 50's, has never been on T and other than her voice, she easily could pass for a man. She isn't trans and really isn't trying to look like a guy but she does. And IMHO most of it is how she carries herself, her mannerisms etc.
I do believe saying things like "Without T, after a certain age, most ftms will never pass" is simply incorrect and I hear the exact same thing on the MTF side. People think "I can take this pill/shot and transform without doing anything else", it's wishful thinking for most people. Yes HRT helps but that isn't the end of it.
Yes, for some people (FTM or MTF), hormones aren't needed to pass though they can be helpful in making it easier. I used to be able to pass without anything, but now if I start trying to pass again I know I would just look too young for what I am; T would be the most helpful for me in making me not look like a 12 year old boy.
Quote from: aleon515 on November 23, 2012, 09:33:14 PM
I think that T is a bit more important in transition for ftms than estrogen is for mtfs.
I agree, but I think as far as passing hormones are equally important for the majority (not all) of transsexual people. Once we reach a certain age ftm's often have a hard time not passing for little boys. Not just in physique but also with their voice without the benefits of T.
For the record, no I'm not saying everyone SHOULD go on hormones. It is at whatever your personal comfort zone is that someone should stop and not conform to society or even the Trans community when making those choices.
Quote from: Stephe on November 23, 2012, 10:40:21 PM
I have a lesbian friend who is in their 50's, has never been on T and other than her voice, she easily could pass for a man. She isn't trans and really isn't trying to look like a guy but she does. And IMHO most of it is how she carries herself, her mannerisms etc.
I do believe saying things like "Without T, after a certain age, most ftms will never pass" is simply incorrect and I hear the exact same thing on the MTF side. People think "I can take this pill/shot and transform without doing anything else", it's wishful thinking for most people. Yes HRT helps but that isn't the end of it.
Depends on your size and build. There are women with very naturally high levels of T. I have fb friends like your friend.
However, I am 5'1" and weigh about 115 lbs. I have thin little arms and legs. Always considered petite-- though boy do I hate this word. I work out but can't build muscle to save my life. Of course at my age it is hard to build muscle for certain reasons.
When I was 20 I could have passed (and sometimes did). I would not have passed as a 20 year old, but as a young kid.
I agree it takes effort beyond T, and some people do give themselves away in other ways.
--Jay J
Thank you for starting this helpful thread. I admit I'm surprised by the no touching rule. I come from a long line of "huggy" people both male and female. Most of my cis male friends that are comfortable with their sexuality have no problems hugging other male friends, cis or not. Or is that rule meant for men just meeting or people they aren't familiar with? Perhaps it is regional as well.
Quote from: FullThrottleMalehem on November 26, 2012, 09:19:34 PM
Thank you for starting this helpful thread. I admit I'm surprised by the no touching rule. I come from a long line of "huggy" people both male and female. Most of my cis male friends that are comfortable with their sexuality have no problems hugging other male friends, cis or not. Or is that rule meant for men just meeting or people they aren't familiar with? Perhaps it is regional as well.
I think it's more for people who don't know each other, a handshake's more appropriate than a hug for a stranger. I don't really see any guys that hug, the only touching that happens between them is generally only within play fighting. If a woman saw a loose thread on someone's (a friend's) jumper they would just pluck it off for them, men would just point it out, or ignore it, something I have to remember not to do.
I think the most important thing is just to do what the people around you do if you want to blend in though.
Ok, enough with the no touching rule. As is said in the following video, you're only human. I like hugs and I don't think gender matters. :P
Of course, that's not to say you should hug everyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ue9QzgqUHk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ue9QzgqUHk)
Beautiful Song \/\/\/\/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL4L4Uv5rf0)
Thank you both for taking the time to respond to my post. That makes more sense with strangers. I've personally never been terribly comfortable with hugging complete strangers and always preferred a hand shake, even before I was being honest with myself about being trans. I just try to be respectful, I have a couple of cis female friends who aren't big on hugging or being hugged.
Quote from: Stephe on November 23, 2012, 10:40:21 PM
I have a lesbian friend who is in their 50's, has never been on T and other than her voice, she easily could pass for a man. She isn't trans and really isn't trying to look like a guy but she does. And IMHO most of it is how she carries herself, her mannerisms etc.
I do believe saying things like "Without T, after a certain age, most ftms will never pass" is simply incorrect and I hear the exact same thing on the MTF side. People think "I can take this pill/shot and transform without doing anything else", it's wishful thinking for most people. Yes HRT helps but that isn't the end of it.
The gender counselor I briefly saw could fit that exact description.
Also, I don't think HRT is the "miracle drug" that fixes all problems but it seems that after being on it long enough people do tend to pass better.
I'm still not totally sure about what keeps people guessing more female than male for me, but I don't have the benefit of hormones so I'm stuck with what I've got. And at best, I'm a bit of a "dandy" in the fashion department (and a bit of a "rocker" in the hair department) but those things are just me and I'm not going to change certain things about me just to fit society's mold. What pisses me off is the days when I do happen to fit society's mold and people still go, "Ma'am". Pfft. I'm really more curious as to what exactly people are seeing that I don't, or certain other people don't.
That said, I'm really over society's b.s. gender "rules". I think if more people broke them, more often, there would be more of a shift from the strictly male or strictly female and those in between the two (or little bit of one or the other) wouldn't have to take so much flack and stress so much about "passing".
I see that we see eye to eye quite a lot, inside. If I come across gay (even though I don't think I am) or whatever gender binary rules I might cross don't interest me too much. OTOH, I think maybe being seen as male is more important to me, though moot at this point. Yes, a few butches will pass without any T at all-- there is a varying amt. of T in FAAB, but I don't think I ever would regardless of what I did.
--Jay J
Well, I think passing for every guy out there is different.
There's basic things you can do as far as 'beauty routines,'
Since I began 'trying' to pass, I definitely started doing some things, and stopped doing certain things.
I let my beard grow out as soon as possible.
I get my sideburns cut flat, not pointed.
Obviously, I don't shave much of anything anymore.
I bind.
I pack.
I layer my clothing like crazy; Three loose sportsbras, one high impact sportsbra, a football compression shirt, one to two tanktops, a t-shirt, and usually a button-up collared shirt, or a hoodie to make my chest look flatter and to hide my curves.
If I feel like my lips are too rosy one day, I'll rub a teeny tiny amount of foundation on them to lighten them up, since most men don't have a lot of color in their lips.
I feel like you probably already do it, but...men's underwear...
My pants always manage to wriggle down, and there's nothing more emasculating than having girly panties ride up your backside, and nothing will cause people to give you stranger looks...I speak from experience, unfortunately.
As far as mannerisms;
This is where I don't even try anymore.
I tried to adopt guyish mannerisms, but I started to feel like I wasn't being myself anymore.
I'm a particularly girly type of dude, but I'm fine with that, and I get told by my friends that it 'works' and that I pass often because society seems to think that artistic guys can be flamboyant and feminine, so hey, go me.
I can't seem to walk like a man, but I do walk differently when I wear my packer, because it gives me something that I can actually feel, and have to adjust to.
I guess the only man thing I really do, is sit like a man.
Men sprawl and take up space whenever possible (I learned this from drawing, believe it or not)
Men also walk differently, instead of walking on an invisible line like most women do, men walk with their feet on either side of a larger line with space between their feet while they walk.
The best advice I can give you, is just to watch men of all ages.
Without T, I do an excellent job of passing as a 12-year-old girl. :(
Quote from: FullThrottleMalehem on November 26, 2012, 09:57:03 PMI've personally never been terribly comfortable with hugging complete strangers and always preferred a hand shake
Same here, never been a hugger (unless it's a cute girl then I'll huge her, lol). I've always had a saying "stay out my bubble"...that is MY personal space and I don't like it invaded. Now with a guy friend in the past I'll slap them on the arm or something but never walk up and hug them.
I seen someone talking about walking also. I walk with zero bounce. It's natural to me but I roll my foot all the way threw the stride and don't bob up and down. I also keep my hands out of my pockets and let my arms just hang (swinging the arms looks femme).
Quote from: Simon on November 27, 2012, 01:59:03 PM
Same here, never been a hugger (unless it's a cute girl then I'll huge her, lol). I've always had a saying "stay out my bubble"...that is MY personal space and I don't like it invaded. Now with a guy friend in the past I'll slap them on the arm or something but never walk up and hug them.
I like hugging my friends, male or otherwise. It makes us feel better, especially after a crummy day. :)
Quote from: Simon on November 27, 2012, 01:59:03 PM
I seen someone talking about walking also. I walk with zero bounce. It's natural to me but I roll my foot all the way threw the stride and don't bob up and down. I also keep my hands out of my pockets and let my arms just hang (swinging the arms looks femme).
Read that over to yourself again, and see if it doesn't sound so anal. Putting so much thought into something as simple as bipedal locomotion just shows how silly focusing on mannerisms is. Seriously, stop thinking so much, people; it's not worth it. Is a girl manly-looking if she puts her hands in her coat pocket since it's cold out?
Note that I'm not speaking with angst. :)
Quote from: DianaP on November 27, 2012, 03:27:48 PMRead that over to yourself again, and see if it doesn't sound so anal. Putting so much thought into something as simple as bipedal locomotion just shows how silly focusing on mannerisms is. Seriously, stop thinking so much, people; it's not worth it.
Well, Diana you're looking at this through the eyes of a female and not a male. These are things that we talk about to help each other. Tried methods that have worked with us. They're just suggestions and not absolutes. I walk how I walk. It was actually pointed out to me by a friend who commented that I "walk like a ghost"...kinda like glide with no bounce in my step. It was not a "taught" behavior. I did make a conscious effort not to sway my arms when I walk. The not putting my hands in my pockets is more about looking self assured than anything else.
I am SURE in the MTF thread you girls give suggestions to each other about swaying your hips or whatever. That is all we are doing here. I'm not over there giving girls suggestions on what they should or shouldn't be doing because (regardless of my gender marker on my documents) I have NEVER been a female mentally.
...so even though you say you're saying things without angst it seems like you're demeaning our efforts. We're just learning to navigate the World as men. Just like you have learned to navigate the World as a woman...so cut us some slack lady! lol :laugh:
Quote from: Simon on November 27, 2012, 03:52:04 PM
I am SURE in the MTF thread you girls give suggestions to each other about swaying your hips or whatever. That is all we are doing here. I'm not over there giving girls suggestions on what they should or shouldn't be doing because (regardless of my gender marker on my documents) I have NEVER been a female mentally.
...so even though you say you're saying things without angst it seems like you're demeaning our efforts. We're just learning to navigate the World as men. Just like you have learned to navigate the World as a woman...so cut us some slack lady! lol :laugh:
I have never given advice like that to any MTF. Hip-swaying looks so silly when it's actually tried. :laugh:
As for demeaning your efforts--> That's not what I'm doing. I'm just saying that they're not necessary. Over-thinking every little detail will only drive you nuts.
I hope you guys don't mind me chiming in. I spent nearly 30 years trying to be perceived as male. I have noticed that a lot of men take up more space than women (these are just generalizations). They tend to sit with their legs apart. When they walk, they lead with their shoulders, and make their chest appear large. They tend to take large steps as well. When men talk with their hands, they make large, fast gestures. It is easier for me to compare men to women when I see them talking with each other. I hope this helps a little.
Quote from: DianaP on November 27, 2012, 03:58:36 PM
I have never given advice like that to any MTF. Hip-swaying looks so silly when it's actually tried. :laugh:
As for demeaning your efforts--> That's not what I'm doing. I'm just saying that they're not necessary. Over-thinking every little detail will only drive you nuts.
Call me crazy but not everyone sees transition in the same light. If people want advise then it is far more helpful to give them a heads up about things then to say what they are attempting isn't necessary.
I am one of the people who think there is only one way to pass 100% of the time and it is by hormones. However, I'm willing to try to help people as much as I can when they ask questions...and that's not silly.
Quote from: Simon on November 27, 2012, 04:14:00 PM
Call me crazy but not everyone sees transition in the same light. If people want advise then it is far more helpful to give them a heads up about things then to say what they are attempting isn't necessary.
I am one of the people who think there is only one way to pass 100% of the time and it is by hormones. However, I'm willing to try to help people as much as I can when they ask questions...and that's not silly.
I never said helping people was silly. I'm just providing an alternative perspective, and couldn't that be helpful too?