Passing tips and male mannerisms

[DriftingCrow]

So if I walk with my feet just under shoulder-width apart it cancels out the sway and my walk looks much more masculine.

That's how I've always just naturally walked, and I am usually described as walking like a caveman (not like there's anything I find wrong with that  ). Probably due to my bad posture...

[DriftingCrow]

I have a lesbian friend who is in their 50's, has never been on T and other than her voice, she easily could pass for a man. She isn't trans and really isn't trying to look like a guy but she does. And IMHO most of it is how she carries herself, her mannerisms etc.

I do believe saying things like "Without T, after a certain age, most ftms will never pass" is simply incorrect and I hear the exact same thing on the MTF side.  People think "I can take this pill/shot and transform without doing anything else", it's wishful thinking for most people. Yes HRT helps but that isn't the end of it.

Yes, for some people (FTM or MTF), hormones aren't needed to pass though they can be helpful in making it easier. I used to be able to pass without anything, but now if I start trying to pass again I know I would just look too young for what I am; T would be the most helpful for me in making me not look like a 12 year old boy.

[Simon]

I think that T is a bit more important in transition for ftms than estrogen is for mtfs.

I agree, but I think as far as passing hormones are equally important for the majority (not all) of transsexual people. Once we reach a certain age ftm's often have a hard time not passing for little boys. Not just in physique but also with their voice without the benefits of T.

For the record, no I'm not saying everyone SHOULD go on hormones. It is at whatever your personal comfort zone is that someone should stop and not conform to society or even the Trans community when making those choices.

[aleon515]

I have a lesbian friend who is in their 50's, has never been on T and other than her voice, she easily could pass for a man. She isn't trans and really isn't trying to look like a guy but she does. And IMHO most of it is how she carries herself, her mannerisms etc.

I do believe saying things like "Without T, after a certain age, most ftms will never pass" is simply incorrect and I hear the exact same thing on the MTF side.  People think "I can take this pill/shot and transform without doing anything else", it's wishful thinking for most people. Yes HRT helps but that isn't the end of it.

Depends on your size and build. There are women with very naturally high levels of T. I have fb friends like your friend.

However, I am 5'1" and weigh about 115 lbs. I have thin little arms and legs. Always considered petite-- though boy do I hate this word. I work out but can't build muscle to save my life. Of course at my age it is hard to build muscle for certain reasons.

When I was 20 I could have passed (and sometimes did). I would not have passed as a 20 year old, but as a young kid.

I agree it takes effort beyond T, and some people do give themselves away in other ways.

--Jay J

[FullThrottleMalehem]

Thank you for starting this helpful thread. I admit I'm surprised by the no touching rule. I come from a long line of "huggy" people both male and female. Most of my cis male friends that are comfortable with their sexuality have no problems hugging other male friends, cis or not. Or is that rule meant for men just meeting or people they aren't familiar with? Perhaps it is regional as well.

[AdamMLP]

Thank you for starting this helpful thread. I admit I'm surprised by the no touching rule. I come from a long line of "huggy" people both male and female. Most of my cis male friends that are comfortable with their sexuality have no problems hugging other male friends, cis or not. Or is that rule meant for men just meeting or people they aren't familiar with? Perhaps it is regional as well.

I think it's more for people who don't know each other, a handshake's more appropriate than a hug for a stranger.  I don't really see any guys that hug, the only touching that happens between them is generally only within play fighting.  If a woman saw a loose thread on someone's (a friend's) jumper they would just pluck it off for them, men would just point it out, or ignore it, something I have to remember not to do.

I think the most important thing is just to do what the people around you do if you want to blend in though.

[Kevin Peña]

Ok, enough with the no touching rule. As is said in the following video, you're only human. I like hugs and I don't think gender matters. 

Of course, that's not to say you should hug everyone.





Beautiful Song \/\/\/\/

[FullThrottleMalehem]

Thank you both for taking the time to respond to my post. That makes more sense with strangers. I've personally never been terribly comfortable with hugging complete strangers and always preferred a hand shake, even before I was being honest with myself about being trans. I just try to be respectful, I have a couple of cis female friends who aren't big on hugging or being hugged.

[insideontheoutside]

I have a lesbian friend who is in their 50's, has never been on T and other than her voice, she easily could pass for a man. She isn't trans and really isn't trying to look like a guy but she does. And IMHO most of it is how she carries herself, her mannerisms etc.

I do believe saying things like "Without T, after a certain age, most ftms will never pass" is simply incorrect and I hear the exact same thing on the MTF side.  People think "I can take this pill/shot and transform without doing anything else", it's wishful thinking for most people. Yes HRT helps but that isn't the end of it.

The gender counselor I briefly saw could fit that exact description.

Also, I don't think HRT is the "miracle drug" that fixes all problems but it seems that after being on it long enough people do tend to pass better.

I'm still not totally sure about what keeps people guessing more female than male for me, but I don't have the benefit of hormones so I'm stuck with what I've got. And at best, I'm a bit of a "dandy" in the fashion department (and a bit of a "rocker" in the hair department) but those things are just me and I'm not going to change certain things about me just to fit society's mold. What pisses me off is the days when I do happen to fit society's mold and people still go, "Ma'am". Pfft. I'm really more curious as to what exactly people are seeing that I don't, or certain other people don't.

That said, I'm really over society's b.s. gender "rules". I think if more people broke them, more often, there would be more of a shift from the strictly male or strictly female and those in between the two (or little bit of one or the other) wouldn't have to take so much flack and stress so much about "passing".

[aleon515]

I see that we see eye to eye quite a lot, inside. If I come across gay (even though I don't think I am) or whatever gender binary rules I might cross don't interest me too much. OTOH, I think maybe being seen as male is more important to me, though moot at this point. Yes, a few butches will pass without any T at all-- there is a varying amt. of T in FAAB, but I don't think I ever would regardless of what I did.

--Jay J

[GentlemanRDP]

Well, I think passing for every guy out there is different.
There's basic things you can do as far as 'beauty routines,'

Since I began 'trying' to pass, I definitely started doing some things, and stopped doing certain things.
I let my beard grow out as soon as possible.
I get my sideburns cut flat, not pointed.
Obviously, I don't shave much of anything anymore.
I bind.
I pack.
I layer my clothing like crazy; Three loose sportsbras, one high impact sportsbra, a football compression shirt, one to two tanktops, a t-shirt, and usually a button-up collared shirt, or a hoodie to make my chest look flatter and to hide my curves.
If I feel like my lips are too rosy one day, I'll rub a teeny tiny amount of foundation on them to lighten them up, since most men don't have a lot of color in their lips.
I feel like you probably already do it, but...men's underwear...
My pants always manage to wriggle down, and there's nothing more emasculating than having girly panties ride up your backside, and nothing will cause people to give you stranger looks...I speak from experience, unfortunately.

As far as mannerisms;
This is where I don't even try anymore.
I tried to adopt guyish mannerisms, but I started to feel like I wasn't being myself anymore.
I'm a particularly girly type of dude, but I'm fine with that, and I get told by my friends that it 'works' and that I pass often because society seems to think that artistic guys can be flamboyant and feminine, so hey, go me.
I can't seem to walk like a man, but I do walk differently when I wear my packer, because it gives me something that I can actually feel, and have to adjust to.
I guess the only man thing I really do, is sit like a man.
Men sprawl and take up space whenever possible (I learned this from drawing, believe it or not)
Men also walk differently, instead of walking on an invisible line like most women do, men walk with their feet on either side of a larger line with space between their feet while they walk.
The best advice I can give you, is just to watch men of all ages.

[FTMDiaries]

Without T, I do an excellent job of passing as a 12-year-old girl.

[Simon]

I've personally never been terribly comfortable with hugging complete strangers and always preferred a hand shake

Same here, never been a hugger (unless it's a cute girl then I'll huge her, lol). I've always had a saying "stay out my bubble"...that is MY personal space and I don't like it invaded. Now with a guy friend in the past I'll slap them on the arm or something but never walk up and hug them.

I seen someone talking about walking also. I walk with zero bounce. It's natural to me but I roll my foot all the way threw the stride and don't bob up and down. I also keep my hands out of my pockets and let my arms just hang (swinging the arms looks femme).

[Kevin Peña]

Same here, never been a hugger (unless it's a cute girl then I'll huge her, lol). I've always had a saying "stay out my bubble"...that is MY personal space and I don't like it invaded. Now with a guy friend in the past I'll slap them on the arm or something but never walk up and hug them.

I like hugging my friends, male or otherwise.  It makes us feel better, especially after a crummy day.

I seen someone talking about walking also. I walk with zero bounce. It's natural to me but I roll my foot all the way threw the stride and don't bob up and down. I also keep my hands out of my pockets and let my arms just hang (swinging the arms looks femme).

Read that over to yourself again, and see if it doesn't sound so anal. Putting so much thought into something as simple as bipedal locomotion just shows how silly focusing on mannerisms is. Seriously, stop thinking so much, people; it's not worth it. Is a girl manly-looking if she puts her hands in her coat pocket since it's cold out?

Note that I'm not speaking with angst. 

[Simon]

Read that over to yourself again, and see if it doesn't sound so anal. Putting so much thought into something as simple as bipedal locomotion just shows how silly focusing on mannerisms is. Seriously, stop thinking so much, people; it's not worth it.

Well, Diana you're looking at this through the eyes of a female and not a male. These are things that we talk about to help each other. Tried methods that have worked with us. They're just suggestions and not absolutes. I walk how I walk. It was actually pointed out to me by a friend who commented that I "walk like a ghost"...kinda like glide with no bounce in my step. It was not a "taught" behavior. I did make a conscious effort not to sway my arms when I walk. The not putting my hands in my pockets is more about looking self assured than anything else.

I am SURE in the MTF thread you girls give suggestions to each other about swaying your hips or whatever. That is all we are doing here. I'm not over there giving girls suggestions on what they should or shouldn't be doing because (regardless of my gender marker on my documents) I have NEVER been a female mentally.

...so even though you say you're saying things without angst it seems like you're demeaning our efforts. We're just learning to navigate the World as men. Just like you have learned to navigate the World as a woman...so cut us some slack lady! lol 

[Kevin Peña]

I am SURE in the MTF thread you girls give suggestions to each other about swaying your hips or whatever. That is all we are doing here. I'm not over there giving girls suggestions on what they should or shouldn't be doing because (regardless of my gender marker on my documents) I have NEVER been a female mentally.

...so even though you say you're saying things without angst it seems like you're demeaning our efforts. We're just learning to navigate the World as men. Just like you have learned to navigate the World as a woman...so cut us some slack lady! lol 

I have never given advice like that to any MTF. Hip-swaying looks so silly when it's actually tried. 
As for demeaning your efforts--> That's not what I'm doing. I'm just saying that they're not necessary. Over-thinking every little detail will only drive you nuts.

[Brooke777]

I hope you guys don't mind me chiming in. I spent nearly 30 years trying to be perceived as male. I have noticed that a lot of men take up more space than women (these are just generalizations). They tend to sit with their legs apart. When they walk, they lead with their shoulders, and make their chest appear large. They tend to take large steps as well. When men talk with their hands, they make large, fast gestures. It is easier for me to compare men to women when I see them talking with each other. I hope this helps a little.

[Simon]

I have never given advice like that to any MTF. Hip-swaying looks so silly when it's actually tried. 
As for demeaning your efforts--> That's not what I'm doing. I'm just saying that they're not necessary. Over-thinking every little detail will only drive you nuts.

Call me crazy but not everyone sees transition in the same light. If people want advise then it is far more helpful to give them a heads up about things then to say what they are attempting isn't necessary.

I am one of the people who think there is only one way to pass 100% of the time and it is by hormones. However, I'm willing to try to help people as much as I can when they ask questions...and that's not silly.

[Kevin Peña]

Call me crazy but not everyone sees transition in the same light. If people want advise then it is far more helpful to give them a heads up about things then to say what they are attempting isn't necessary.

I am one of the people who think there is only one way to pass 100% of the time and it is by hormones. However, I'm willing to try to help people as much as I can when they ask questions...and that's not silly.

I never said helping people was silly. I'm just providing an alternative perspective, and couldn't that be helpful too?