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Most of us are so familiar with the story but what is the real meaning behind it? What was so special about Jesus birth? Could it be that His birth was the beginning of the fulfilment of a promise? A promise made along time in words,pictures, and imagery.

God Will Provide a Lamb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxYXQmSDsYo#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

In The First Light (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l8-QfH0opg#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

A friend asked me to post this  :)


Christmas With a Capital "C" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAckfn8yiAQ#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

The Promise by Michael Card (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyX-uriW3qk#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

Quote from: SarahM777 on December 05, 2012, 04:29:57 PM
The Promise by Michael Card (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyX-uriW3qk#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

I used to own the 2-cd set he put out with this song on it.  The set was comprised of songs all about the life of Jesus Christ; I think it was called "The Life".  I think.  Don't quote me on that. 

The heart and soul of the Christmas story is the entire sacrifice of Jesus Christ, beginning with the incarnation we celebrate on or about Dec. 25th.  He was born to die for the salvation of mankind.

Granted, there are other applications we could draw: self-sacrifice, giving, being kind, sharing, singing Kum-ba-yah, etc., but the primary focus of the announcements of the birth of Christ in Matthew and Luke was that Jesus would be the sacrifice that would be the salvation of His people, that the promise of the Messiah was finally fulfilled.

Simeon (in Luke 2) recognized the focus of Jesus' birth being that salvation was come unto both the Jews and the Gentiles.  Perhaps the best part about Christmas is that Jesus didn't stay in the manger, just as He didn't stay in the tomb!

:)  I am eternally grateful that he didn't stay in the grave

Quote from: Incarnadine on December 05, 2012, 04:38:16 PM
I used to own the 2-cd set he put out with this song on it.  The set was comprised of songs all about the life of Jesus Christ; I think it was called "The Life".  I think.  Don't quote me on that.

The song was put out on three CD's. The first was on the album"The Final Word",the second was on
the album "The Promise:A Celebration of Christ's Birth" the third was the album "The Life" which contained the three albums "The Final Word","Scandalon" and "Known By The Scars"  ;)

Michael Card The Final Word (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U768-gCY0ds#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

A promise to an older couple barren and childless,that they would have a son. A son who would go before the Lord,who would someday point Jesus out and proclaim "Behold the lamb of God who comes to take away the sin of the world" A son who in Zechariah's words

Luke 1



Prepare the Way (Zechariah's Song) - Todd Koeppen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxVJg4A5GRI#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

I find myself rather distant from most Christians these days. I've never identified with the post 19th century American influence. But that's OK.

For me, the story of Christmas begins with two, very remarkable women, each finding themselves, somewhat miraculously, with child.

Like so much of the Gospels, I never understood any of it, nor really believed any of it, until I read it. No songs, no passionate preaching, no judgements, just tow, very remarkable women, both finding themsleves with child.

If we are truly seeking He will touch us through different styles yet through the same message. Some He touches through song (I am one I love music and I see through the music so to speak),others through preaching,some He has to slap upside the head to get them to pay attention IE Saul who became Paul.

Perhaps this one will speak to you also as this song talks about two remarkable women and the children they are to give birth to.

Phil Keaggy - And On That Day (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7faB3yHAVGI&feature#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

Did Mary really understand what was yet to come? Did she even have any idea what it would cost her?


Mary Did You Know (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1oHJR2g7Tw#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

I reckon that it really takes faith to please the Lord and a willingness to lay down your life.
She pretty much received a death sentence with the news considering the law, cutoms and her state of being unwed.
The Lord will try people to see if they esteem him above everything.

Quote from: SarahM777 on December 07, 2012, 02:21:45 PM
Did Mary really understand what was yet to come? Did she even have any idea what it would cost her?

The story says she did. But I get the impression that she would have submitted herself to the will of God in any case.

According to the word of God Christ dwells in our hearts by faith.
Those who have had the baptism of the Holy Ghost have the Spirit within them. Jesus said that his Father was in him and he in his Father.
When told his mother and brethren were asking for him he said that those who know the will of God and do it are his mother and sister and brother.
Like Mary, through a similitude we as Christians have Jesus within us and must bring him into this darkened world.
Like Mary, we know that the promise of a Messiah that would save man of his sins must be revealed, or birthed through us and it may cost us everything to bring him into this world.
Mary said that the Lord had regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. As Christians we know that the word of God says the common people heard him gladly and that he preached to and delivered and healed the poor. It is also written the Lord said blessed are the poor in spirit.
Through the birth of Jesus we can see that being a Christian is a great honor of the which we cannot boast nor take lightly. We can see that as his bride we are blessed and found favor with God over women and men of the world. It is written that he that finds a wife findeth a good thing and favor of the Lord. Through Jesus we as his wife are that good thing and have favor through him. (Not of ourselves)
Mary who would carry the child of promise was carrying the one spoken about by the prophets from the beginning. The one so highly esteemed of God that he would destroy nations, change times and alter anything that would stand in the way or corrupt the bloodline of his birth. She would carry the one that would deliver her when she put off the tabernacle.
This is an awesome topic as it can show us that being a Christian isn't just some goody-goody name we can call ourselves while we refuse to follow his word but is an undeserved honor that was revealed through parables and similitudes from the beginning of time.
If we carry him and bring him unto the lost he will guide us and deliver us at the appointed time. Therefore we should be willing to forsake everything for him and as Mary was probably looked upon as a whore by those who knew she conceived out of marriage we should be willing to face ridicule from those who cannot see that which is conceived in us of the unseen Lord.
There are just so many types and shadows here. So many things to both fear and feel blessed. So many things that should cause us to praise his holy name every day.

A question from my ignorance and not in anyway meant to demean any beliefs.

The Christian Churches or Faiths hold a similar  belief on the Birth and Death of Jesus. Although there are obvious differences in the belief systems between the Faiths. I have to admit I do not understand them and it is one reason I have problems with religion. Why do Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox religions differ on the same set of writings in the gospels etc? I would have thought that the common concept in the Holy Literature between these faiths is the birth and death of the Saviour. We celebrate the birth at Christmas time, if the date is accurate or not is totally immaterial, it is a celebration of the birth of the Saviour. Easter is the same, whether the dates are accurate or not is equally irrelevant it is a celebration (?) of the sacrifice given by Jesus.

Why does Judaism reject (if that is correct) the concept of Jesus as the Saviour? My understanding is that Judaism is a Faith that is still awaiting the birth of the Saviour. Why is this so? Particularly as Jesus appears as a very strong willed and dominant teacher in the society of his time, which was a Jewish society.

Is the heart and soul of Christmas a concept or a factual belief that requires 'Faith' to accept?

As people know I'm very easy in discussing such matters and none of my posts are in anyway anti-belief or anti-religion. But I do have a genuine interest in how we make these decisions.

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy James on December 08, 2012, 01:41:31 AM
A question from my ignorance and not in anyway meant to demean any beliefs.

The Christian Churches or Faiths hold a similar  belief on the Birth and Death of Jesus. Although there are obvious differences in the belief systems between the Faiths. I have to admit I do not understand them and it is one reason I have problems with religion. Why do Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox religions differ on the same set of writings in the gospels etc? I would have thought that the common concept in the Holy Literature between these faiths is the birth and death of the Saviour. We celebrate the birth at Christmas time, if the date is accurate or not is totally immaterial, it is a celebration of the birth of the Saviour. Easter is the same, whether the dates are accurate or not is equally irrelevant it is a celebration (?) of the sacrifice given by Jesus.

The birth, death and ressurrection of Jesus is celebrated in most churches. Sadly, in most churches these are the only parts not tainted by man's teaching and division. Jesus said a kingdom divided would come to nothing and a house divided would fall. These divisions are brought about when men use their own mind rather than the Spirit of God to lead their lives and the things they teach. As written, lean not unto thine own understanding and as Paul said in 1 Corinthians the word of God is spiritually discerned.
These divisions have caused confusion among Christians and the word says God is not the author of confusion. It is written the warfare of the enemy is with confused violence. The enemy of our soul and God is Satan. It is the Spirit of God that can give eyes to see and ears to hear and give faith unto those willing to believe.

Why does Judaism reject (if that is correct) the concept of Jesus as the Saviour? My understanding is that Judaism is a Faith that is still awaiting the birth of the Saviour. Why is this so? Particularly as Jesus appears as a very strong willed and dominant teacher in the society of his time, which was a Jewish society.

The Jews are still awaiting a Messiah to save them while Christians see through the Spirit the Messiah has come as a Lamb of sacrifice.
The word of God says that God is just and holy in all his works. It says he has caused a partial blindness unto the Jews that he might have mercy on us Gentles. Not that we could boast but rather be thankful for his grace. In the end those Jews who believe shall be saved. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come.
The word of God says Jesus had the fullness of the Godhead and the fullness of the Spirit. The Spirit of God being seven Spirits, or parts.
1- Romans 1:1-4 declared to be the Son of God by the Spirit of holiness - The Holy Ghost reveals who Jesus is and what he says unto the churches and saints.
2- Romans 8:2 the Spirit of Life - The Spirit of God renews our spirit and gives us life. This changing of the law brings us from the old law unto a law in which we have grace through Jesus.
3- Romans 8:15 Spirit of Adoption - This is the Spirit which shows us that we as Gentiles have been adopted into the kingdom of Christ making God our Father.
4- Galations 6:1 Spirit of Meekness - This is the part of the Spirit which brings forth a meek and quiet spirit in those who are baptized in the Holy Ghost. It is a change that is both noticeable and requires no struggle to be meek regardless of circumstances.
5- 2 Corinthians 4:8-13 - This is the Spirit that allows us to have faith regardless of what comes at us. When everything goes wrong and we lose everything and it seems as though the whole world is against us this Spirit reassures us we are saved. It gives a faith that endures anything such as Abraham knowing God could raise Isaac from the dead and countless scriptures whereby men of God stood against stronger enemies and such. The faith to fight impossible battles and believe when everything speaks contrary.
6- Ephesians 1:17 - Spirit ofWisdom and Revelation - That Spirit which rightly divides the word of truth and reveals who Jesus is from the laws and prophets. That which reveals things to come. things the spirit of man and mind of man cannot understand and deem foolish.
7- 1 Peter 4:12-14 - Spirit of Glory and of God - That Spirit which brings us through great trials and tribulations allowing the glory of God to be seen on us. That spirit which manifests the Lord being with us in the worst of times.
These Spirits gave Jesus all power in the days of his flesh so to speak and the boldness to stand against everything. They gave him the power to hold his peace when men spit in his face, pulled his beard out, scourged and crucified him. He had the power and if he had lost his temper in his darkest hour he could have spoken this whole world out of existance and we all would have been damned. Thank God he endured as an example unto us as the importance of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Is the heart and soul of Christmas a concept or a factual belief that requires 'Faith' to accept?

It is factual as it is Jewish history. The Jews in their history have the entire lineage going back to Adam regardless of what scientists believe.
These facts all reveal the Messiah that came whom they did not recognize. These facts and history prophesied by the Spirit of God through prophets chosen of God that man could one day dwell with God for ever if he would have faith to believe.

As people know I'm very easy in discussing such matters and none of my posts are in anyway anti-belief or anti-religion. But I do have a genuine interest in how we make these decisions.

I can't speak for others but I have always felt a sincere interest in your posts and pm's. In no way have I ever been offended kiddo.
I enjoy the question and sadly it is the mind and spirit of man and their desire to be a god that has corrupted Christianity and caused this confusion and these divisions. Sadly these things have stopped people from experiencing some of the power and miracles the Lord has for those who would believe the whole word of God and not just the parts they like.
Your posts are a blessing.

Cindy

I am sorry if my post is hard to read. I'm not good with computers as is evident.
Christmas is indeed a fact that we must have faith to believe.
May God bless.
del

Del,

Thank you for replying and yes you need Computers for Dummies in your Christmas stocking.


I think we have a common bond in the belief of  discussion in a friendly and open way.

As a scientist with a deep knowledge and understanding of  genetics and genetic mutations I have to raise my eybrows about the concept that anyone can trace their people of any belief to Adam. Sorry just silly and against scientific proof. I have to draw lines in the acceptance of logic and belief. I have, as you know, no problems with belief , but if  a God created this reality she used principles. I do not accept Gods but even if I ever do, I will never accept stupid Gods.

For the record the genetics of human evolution are becoming clear.


I'm lost in your explanation of people of the Jewish Faith. It sounds like we are right you are wrong. I'm not good in that logic.

I understand Cindy's point and will say that, like much of the Bible, I accept it in an allegorical sense. I know form personal experience and others I trust totally, that each of us may be infused with something higher and the results can, unsurprisingly, be rather astonishing, to say the least to others.

As for the point about Jews.

I appreciate that many, Jews and Christians have been struggling, especially for the last 400 or so years, to find a theological justification for the Jews rejection of Jesus and the subsequent negative reaction.

The sad reality is, there is none. What has emerged has been little more than a confusing mish mash of compromise and fabrications. The reason is quite simple, the truth is so much more prosaic and the evidence is right there.

The Romans had occupied that part of the ME, occupied by a notoriously independent people, principally traders and merchants, who dominated most of the trading ports on the E Mediterranean. It's difficult for us, today especially, to fully appreciate the importance of the ME in the ancient world. The world was beating a door to India. Because India produced, in huge quantities, spices which flavoured food. The major economic power houses, at that time were China, which had almost direct access, N Africa and Southern Europe, which didn't. They needed to rely upon the peoples of the ME and especially the ports, to transport those spices.

Now much like their essentially direct descendants today, who are known as Palestinians, many among those people simply refused to submit themselves to Roman occupation. Their history records previous occupations, even whole scale abductions. They had come to believe they were special and chosen. Most uniting under a single god, which was remarkable itself, for the time.

The occupiers, Romans, had little compunction is applying some of the most horrible methods of retribution. Crucifixion was, sadly, a rather common place method.

Now, there seems to be evidence, from Josephus and some Roman commentators, of a number of uprising, by Jews, at that time. Like now, most claimed to be action on behalf of or under instruction from god. Like now, most were silly, expreem and brutally suppressed.

The problem with commentators at that time is, like the latter half of the 20th century up to the present, information tends to be produced, as much to create impressions, as record hisorical fact. But since both Josephus and Roman commentators, both make not dissimilar claims, we can accept these to an extent.

From the perspective of the people of Palestine, at that time, Jesus would have been just another rebel leader. But what seems to have made him so different is that he refuted the teachings of resistance, conflict and taught people, if a robber takes your cloak, give him your coat as well. Love your enemies. Do not judge. Do not kill. Do not fight and most crucially, pray in a locked closet, because clergy have no authority.

Now the evidence seems to indicate that the only substantive Jewish leadership remaining, was the local clergy. We know the Romans took great pains, usually, to integrate local religions and religious leaders from most territories, into the Romans empire, in part indicated by their enormous number of personal gods. The resistance among the Jews, in Palestine, was led by the clergy. The majority of the people would have looked to them for their guidance and deliverance. It would be the clergy who would tend to hand over trouble makers and such, to the Romans for punishment. Presumably hoping for realistic opportunities themselves.

The gospels record that the clergy were openly hostile to the teachings of Jesus, even before the Sermon on the Mount. But what Jesus said, in that Sermon would have been enough for those clergy to finally decide he needed to be disposed of. Not only was he creating enormous trouble for the local people, he was also openly telling people to defy the authority of the local clergy.

That is why they would have handed Jesus over to the Romans.

Any claims about his divinity would have meant no more to them than that of a child goddess in Nepal means to many in the west. (With deepest respect to Buddhists in Nepal).

It's sad that reality has given way to disputed belief. But we live in an age when seemingly intelligent people are claiming the world was created in 6 days, so things remain quite silly.
 

Quote from: Cindy James on December 08, 2012, 01:41:31 AM
A question from my ignorance and not in anyway meant to demean any beliefs.

The Christian Churches or Faiths hold a similar  belief on the Birth and Death of Jesus. Although there are obvious differences in the belief systems between the Faiths. I have to admit I do not understand them and it is one reason I have problems with religion. Why do Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox religions differ on the same set of writings in the gospels etc? I would have thought that the common concept in the Holy Literature between these faiths is the birth and death of the Saviour. We celebrate the birth at Christmas time, if the date is accurate or not is totally immaterial, it is a celebration of the birth of the Saviour. Easter is the same, whether the dates are accurate or not is equally irrelevant it is a celebration (?) of the sacrifice given by Jesus.

We as Christians have made a total and complete mess of things. We spend way to much time on hair splitting doctrines,creeds and formulas. Which we were never told to do. Do we somehow think that God is going to test us on the 5 points of Calvinism,Vatican I and Vatican II,Luther's large and small cathes isms,the CMA's four points,etc,etc etc,ad nauseum? Do we really believe that it's in following Fred Phelps,Joyce Meyers,Joel Olsten,Chuck Swindoll,Pope Benedict,or even my or someone else's pastor? Is it in the liturgies,robes,or some sort of formalized ritual? Is it going to the "Temple" every Sunday? Is it in our understanding of what communion and baptism is? Or is the question that we will be asked who do you say Jesus is and what was His purpose for coming into this world?

Jesus makes the point that He is the way back to the Father,Jesus points to the Father,even to the point that if you believe Jesus you are believing in the Father who sent Him because the words that Jesus spoke were not Jesus own words but that which the Father had given Him. Jesus came to restore us so that we could come to know the Father,love the Father,trust the Father and obey our Father in heaven. How much of what is done,is done because it's seen as appeasement or out of duty,yet Jesus talks of doing so out of love for God. It becomes relational out of love. Love in that sense is not a feeling but an action. Somewhere along the line we have lost that,we replaced a good portion of showing our love of God to each other by loving each other,with form,rituals,
creeds,and doctrines. And is it any wonder that the world sees the church as being dead and lifeless? How many of us really ever see the radical transformation that takes place,that swept over a nation and shook an empire to it's very core in less than 35 years? How many of us have ever really seen the radical kind of love that goes above and beyond that which is typical of human beings? It's what marked the early church,and we so rarely see it.

The dates and times we do not really know for sure. I think that was something that God wanted left out. The point of it was not if it was three wise men,more or less,it wasn't about the shepherds,the angels,the manger,the trip to Bethlehem,if it was winter,fall,spring or summer,etc,etc. The point is that those things were the beginning of the fulfillment of what was fore told about the Messiah,and that Jesus is the one that was promised of old. He was and is the one to be the savior.
Because even within the message Zechariah,Mary,Simeon,and others point out that Jesus is the one.

Quote from: Cindy James on December 08, 2012, 01:41:31 AM

As people know I'm very easy in discussing such matters and none of my posts are in anyway anti-belief or anti-religion. But I do have a genuine interest in how we make these decisions.

Cindy

I still remember that you were one of the first to post when I was struggling with how I was going to bring my issues up to my church. I did and still do appreciate it. And you did so in a gentle manner. I remember i was close to panicking and you really helped. Thank you.

Sarah

Quote from: spacial on December 08, 2012, 05:15:32 AM

The occupiers, Romans, had little compunction is applying some of the most horrible methods of retribution. Crucifixion was, sadly, a rather common place method.


From the perspective of the people of Palestine, at that time, Jesus would have been just another rebel leader. But what seems to have made him so different is that he refuted the teachings of resistance, conflict and taught people, if a robber takes your cloak, give him your coat as well. Love your enemies. Do not judge. Do not kill. Do not fight and most crucially, pray in a locked closet, because clergy have no authority.

Now the evidence seems to indicate that the only substantive Jewish leadership remaining, was the local clergy. We know the Romans took great pains, usually, to integrate local religions and religious leaders from most territories, into the Romans empire, in part indicated by their enormous number of personal gods. The resistance among the Jews, in Palestine, was led by the clergy. The majority of the people would have looked to them for their guidance and deliverance. It would be the clergy who would tend to hand over trouble makers and such, to the Romans for punishment. Presumably hoping for realistic opportunities themselves.

The gospels record that the clergy were openly hostile to the teachings of Jesus, even before the Sermon on the Mount. But what Jesus said, in that Sermon would have been enough for those clergy to finally decide he needed to be disposed of. Not only was he creating enormous trouble for the local people, he was also openly telling people to defy the authority of the local clergy.

That is why they would have handed Jesus over to the Romans.

I have to respectfully disagree on these two points. It is recorded that Pilot did not really want to do it. He gave in to them to try keep the peace.

The religious leaders knew what Jesus was saying and many times they wanted to put Him to death for one reason and that was for blasphemy,it wasn't because of what He did,it was because of His claims.

Luke 5 20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

21 The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

22 Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? 23 Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 24 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 25 Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. 26 Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, "We have seen remarkable things today."

John 10

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'[d]? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Mark 14

53 They took Jesus to the high priest, and all the chief priests, the elders and the teachers of the law came together. 54 Peter followed him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest. There he sat with the guards and warmed himself at the fire.

55 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find any. 56 Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree.

57 Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58 "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.'" 59 Yet even then their testimony did not agree.

60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?"

62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

63 The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64 "You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"

They all condemned him as worthy of death. 65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him.

They knew what He was saying and their only to their mind "provable" accusation was blasphemy. When they tried multiple times to stone Him,throw Him off a cliff,or finally to have Him executed it was because of His claims as to His identity.

Thank you Sarah, for your considered response. I confess I'm not entirely sure where the first point ends and the second begins, so I will attempt to adress it as a single point.

But first, I do not seek to undermine anyone's faith. I am simply attempting to look at the historys from a rational perspective. You will agree, that the inclusion of emotion in any historical argument makes reason impossible. It seeks to force us to take sides. I am simply attempting to address the issue of the apparent antipathy between the Jews and the Christians, from a rational perspective, based upon what we know of the actual history, rather than a theological perspective.

To your point about Pilot. That is, of course true and has been recorded as such. The Romans were quick to exact terrible punishments on those who transgressed their law, but they were a society, based upon law. They would refuse to impose their punishment upon someone, known to them as a rebel, but who had not broken their laws. Blasphemy, was not a serious crime under Roman law at that time. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm)

What this demonstrates is that, up to that point, the Romans had no serious problem with what Jesus was doing.

They changed their minds when Jesus was accused of treason or insurection, which was the crime for which he was eventually executed. From another perspective, it could also be argued that Jesus was fermenting insurrection against the then king, by apparently claiming to be king himself. That would have amounted to the same thing.

But, since the Romans did not initially arrest and charge Jesus with treason, as evidenced by the insistance of Pilot that he had broken now law, the charges would have been based upon subsequent information.

However, these are simply the details. As such they could be argued over until protestants love catholics.

The point I was making is that the reason Jesus was turned into the Romans in the first place, then essentially, fitted up under false charges was because those in authority among the Jewish clergy feared what he was saying.

If you read what he actually said, the only point which could seriously cause them such alarm as to seek his death, would have been the injunction to pray in a closet, in contradiction to Jewish practice then and now.

It was as simple as telling the people that the bosses are rubbish.

Further evidence for this can be suggested by the effective hijacking of the Christian movement post Jesus.

It essentially split into 3 parts. The Ecclesiastical, which was the foundation of the church, the Zionist and the literalists.

The literalists seem to have ended in Roman arenas where they were heard, by thousands, singing as they were mauled to death by wild animals. Many were also put int cages, covered in pitch, hung on street corners where they would be set fire to as street lighting. I understand that there were a number of instances where these people were given opportunities to recant. But since that would mean swearing to abide by Roman law, including waging war, they preferred their grizzley fate.

The Zionists seem to have sought to keep the movement Jewish. insisting upon their traditional laws regarding food and mutilating baby boys' genitals. Along with the Literalists, the Zioists Christians seem to have disappeared.

The Ecclesiasticals set up the church, appoint themselves as leaders then arguing endlessly over issues such as, was Jesus literally god or infused with the spirit of God and similar.

Again, I fully acknowledge that there were many different Christian Ecclesiastical groups, many very disparate. But what all had in common was their insistence upon their own doctrines and the imposition of a clergy.

A Strange Way to Save the World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBCVIJBB7o4#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

And what about Joseph? A man that finds his wife to be is with child,in a time that it could have meant death for Mary. A man who was faithful to the law and whose compassion for her leads him to divorce her quietly. And what should take place but as he sleeps a heavenly mesanger appears to him in in dream

Matthew 1

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[d]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins."

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[g] (which means "God with us").

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Once again pointing to what Jesus had come to do.

Joseph's Song -Michael Card (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BARVAg0gl6w#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

My apologies I keep forgetting Joseph.

I there a history of what happened to him?

he would have had family as well.


How do people who have a belief in scripture select the areas they want to believe? Sounds far harsher than meant. I'm sort of a bent at the moment reading Scripture with my mind. I was given a mind that leaps and travels. There is scripture that is not accepted. Why is that. Some is fanciful Books of Enoch for example but seem to have links in the OT. The OT is discarded by some and hung on by others. If that is so how can scholars discriminate between text. To be blunt if one text is crap why isn't the other? And Vice Versa.

C

Quote from: spacial on December 08, 2012, 09:58:05 AM
Thank you Sarah, for your considered response. I confess I'm not entirely sure where the first point ends and the second begins, so I will attempt to adress it as a single point.

Jill,
I do apologize for the confusion. I combined the two and I should have been more clear.

Quote from: spacial on December 08, 2012, 09:58:05 AM

To your point about Pilot. That is, of course true and has been recorded as such. The Romans were quick to exact terrible punishments on those who transgressed their law, but they were a society, based upon law. They would refuse to impose their punishment upon someone, known to them as a rebel, but who had not broken their laws. Blasphemy, was not a serious crime under Roman law at that time.

What this demonstrates is that, up to that point, the Romans had no serious problem with what Jesus was doing.

They changed their minds when Jesus was accused of treason or insurection, which was the crime for which he was eventually executed. From another perspective, it could also be argued that Jesus was fermenting insurrection against the then king, by apparently claiming to be king himself. That would have amounted to the same thing.

But, since the Romans did not initially arrest and charge Jesus with treason, as evidenced by the insistance of Pilot that he had broken now law, the charges would have been based upon subsequent information.

The point I was trying to make with Pilate is that even with all the so called charges Pilate tried every which way he could think of to get Jesus released. First he sends Jesus to Herod,then Pilate questions Him,at the same time Pilate gets a message from his wife,not to have anything to do with the innocent man Jesus,because she is having very bad dreams. Pilate than tries to get Jesus released by offering a choice between Jesus and Barabbas,who was not known to be a winner by any means. He then asks the crowd what to do with Jesus and even proclaims Jesus innocenice. The crowd wants Jesus crucified. Pilate appeases them and washes his hands of the whole mess.
I believe that if Pilate at any time believed the charges he never would have in any way,shape or form would it let get as far as it did. Jesus would have been convicted far earlier.

Quote from: spacial on December 08, 2012, 09:58:05 AM

The point I was making is that the reason Jesus was turned into the Romans in the first place, then essentially, fitted up under false charges was because those in authority among the Jewish clergy feared what he was saying.

If you read what he actually said, the only point which could seriously cause them such alarm as to seek his death, would have been the injunction to pray in a closet, in contradiction to Jewish practice then and now.

It was as simple as telling the people that the bosses are rubbish.

I agree but it was more than that. I believe it had far more to do with one thing for the religous leaders to have to get "rid" of Jesus. I think it had to do with one thing,they knew that if they accepted Jesus as Messiah it would have caused their world to crumble. They saw that they could lose everything. It meant that they would have lost all religous and earthly power,authority,
prestige,privilege and maybe wealth,because they would have had to acknowledge that Jesus is high priest and King. It would have changed their world over night.

Quote from: spacial on December 08, 2012, 09:58:05 AM

It essentially split into 3 parts. The Ecclesiastical, which was the foundation of the church, the Zionist and the literalists.

The literalists seem to have ended in Roman arenas where they were heard, by thousands, singing as they were mauled to death by wild animals. Many were also put int cages, covered in pitch, hung on street corners where they would be set fire to as street lighting. I understand that there were a number of instances where these people were given opportunities to recant. But since that would mean swearing to abide by Roman law, including waging war, they preferred their grizzley fate.

The thing was that the apostles themselves were literalists. It was always their claim that they saw Jesus alive again,they walked with Him,talked with Him,touched Him,and ate with Him,for forty days after the resurrection. John at the end of his gospel attests to that he was an eye witness to the events,and Matthew also was one of the twelve. They give no indication that any of the things they say or heard were allegories,but were factual events that they saw and heard.

Quote from: spacial on December 08, 2012, 09:58:05 AM


The Ecclesiasticals set up the church, appoint themselves as leaders then arguing endlessly over issues such as, was Jesus literally god or infused with the spirit of God and similar.

Again, I fully acknowledge that there were many different Christian Ecclesiastical groups, many very disparate. But what all had in common was their insistence upon their own doctrines and the imposition of a clergy.

And it's still this way today in those groups.

Quote from: Cindy James on December 10, 2012, 06:30:56 AM

I there a history of what happened to him?

he would have had family as well.

Outside of the Christmas story,there is only one other mention of Joseph and that was when Jesus was twelve and they went up to the temple for Passover,and on the way back they finally noticed that Jesus was not with them and they returned to look for Him and found Him at the temple. Somewhere between then and when Jesus started preaching and teaching,Joseph had died,when and how we don't know. Jesus mother,brothers and sisters are mentioned. (Not by name) The other thing that would indicate the Joseph had died was when Jesus placed Mary into John's care.
It was the eldest son that usually took care of their mothers after the death of the father.

Quote from: Cindy James on December 10, 2012, 06:30:56 AM

How do people who have a belief in scripture select the areas they want to believe? Sounds far harsher than meant. I'm sort of a bent at the moment reading Scripture with my mind. I was given a mind that leaps and travels. There is scripture that is not accepted. Why is that. Some is fanciful Books of Enoch for example but seem to have links in the OT. The OT is discarded by some and hung on by others. If that is so how can scholars discriminate between text. To be blunt if one text is crap why isn't the other? And Vice Versa.

C

Short answer,the Bible can be blunt,harsh and to the point. There are some very scary things if one sees the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah as being factual. If they are factual then what does it mean? Not everything Jesus said is light,easy and breezy. Nor is Peter and Paul.

Why some of the others have not been included? That one I will leave to those a bit more scholarly,the answers are a bit more in depth than I myself can answer.

You may be right Sarah. But as I said, I look at this religion the the same way as others, from an historical aspect. We can choose to dismiss anthing we wish, but to dismiss or ridicule, the feelings of several billion people, is stupid.

If we look at what happened in the context of the day and the beliefs and attitudes of the day, then it actually can be better understood. I was attemting to demostrate that the source of the supposed antipathy between the Jews and Christians, that is Jesus, had a political origin. There is no theological justification for Christians, certainly not before the 19th century anyway. For Jews there probably is. But only because their theology is complicated by their xenophobic politics. On a purely theological basis, they have no reason to be antipathetic to anyone, least of all Christians.

Incidently, if I may, can I ask you if you have ever given any consideration to the person Barabbas? His name actually means, from the father. Bar - from, abbas - father?

Quote from: spacial on December 10, 2012, 08:11:45 AM
You may be right Sarah. But as I said, I look at this religion the the same way as others, from an historical aspect. We can choose to dismiss anthing we wish, but to dismiss or ridicule, the feelings of several billion people, is stupid.

I do agree. But we do need to be careful that just because one disagrees,even in spirited and heated discussions,that it means that one is putting down or ridiculing someone else.

Quote from: spacial on December 10, 2012, 08:11:45 AM

If we look at what happened in the context of the day and the beliefs and attitudes of the day, then it actually can be better understood. I was attemting to demostrate that the source of the supposed antipathy between the Jews and Christians, that is Jesus, had a political origin. There is no theological justification for Christians, certainly not before the 19th century anyway. For Jews there probably is. But only because their theology is complicated by their xenophobic politics. On a purely theological basis, they have no reason to be antipathetic to anyone, least of all Christians.

I agree that it was partilly political,but I do believe it was more then that.

On the comment in bold above,could you clarify it. I want to make sure I understand it as the way I read it could mean two different things.

Quote from: spacial on December 10, 2012, 08:11:45 AM

Incidently, if I may, can I ask you if you have ever given any consideration to the person Barabbas? His name actually means, from the father. Bar - from, abbas - father?

I may have heard that along time ago.

I'm sorry Sarah, but I'm afraid that, as much as I'd like to, I cannot spend too much time clarifying that point here. Firstly because it references a sequence which you don't appear to be aware of and secondly, the matter may serve to hijack this thread as well as risk offending some of those who identify as Christians.

Your claim: I may have heard that along time ago. It does seem a rather significant point. But I won't pursue the matter.

This thread is about the Heart and Soul of Christmas story, I gave my response in #9. I apologise that I seemed to have diverted the discussion in #19. I accept full responsibility. I was attempting to offer a perspective but ended up provolking a reaction on the specifics.

Quote from: spacial on December 10, 2012, 11:06:42 AM
I'm sorry Sarah, but I'm afraid that, as much as I'd like to, I cannot spend too much time clarifying that point here. Firstly because it references a sequence which you don't appear to be aware of and secondly, the matter may serve to hijack this thread as well as risk offending some of those who identify as Christians.

That's OK Jill,if you want you can PM about it. For some reason I don't see if things go off a bit on a tangent that it's a bad thing. I guess I am more like my mom in that respect. (Somehow we start off on one thing and by the time we end up it can seem a 100,000,000 miles a way from what we started talking about)  Tangents can be interesting as you never know where you end up.  ;)

Quote from: spacial on December 10, 2012, 11:06:42 AM

Your claim: I may have heard that along time ago. It does seem a rather significant point. But I won't pursue the matter.

I think it was something we were taught in passing but not in depth.

Quote from: spacial on December 10, 2012, 11:06:42 AM

This thread is about the Heart and Soul of Christmas story, I gave my response in #9. I apologise that I seemed to have diverted the discussion in #19. I accept full responsibility. I was attempting to offer a perspective but ended up provolking a reaction on the specifics.

It was me too,I just like talking about these things. Sometimes when we are talking someone can bring up something that we never thought of and it can strengthen our faith. I think for me it's not just saying I believe,but it's also the question "Why do I believe,what I believe?" is just as important for me to answer to myself,and then when I hear or see things like that,I like sharing what's in my heart and mind,because I think it's really important.

Thank you for your response Sarah. I too enjoy conversations going where they may. Some of the best conversations I've ever had, started with one subject and over time, covered almost everything.

But one lesson I've learnt in socialising on forums is that 'going off thread', tends to be frowned upon.

As for Barabbas, the importance of that single incident is really quite important. It is mentioned, almost identically, in all the Gospels and in other writings. Always in the same context.

Unfortunately, it isn't part of the Christmas story and I'm sorry to say the associated antisemitism in Europe has a considerable more prosaic basis, the Biblical justificaion coming later.

If you wish, I can try starting another thread and present you with some of this. But I will do so in the main Spirituality section so that it cannot be seen as an attack upon anyone's beliefs within the Christianty section.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins."

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[g] (which means "God with us").

Immanuel - Michael Card (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSEqXbnOrQU#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

Then there were the shepherds. A lowly social class. They too are given a message by a heavenly messenger about this new born baby,about who He is and what He came to do.

Luke 2

8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. 9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. 12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."

13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

14 "Glory to God in the highest heaven,
    and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests."
15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."

A message to point that Jesus is the savoir,Messiah and Lord.

Shepherd's Watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liZdnvqwf5o#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

Shepherd's Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDGhZw70s5I#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

Another promise to an old man,a promise that with his own eyes he would not die till he saw the Lord's Messiah.

Luke 2

25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Messiah. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:

29 "Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
    you may now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31     which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
    and the glory of your people Israel."
33 The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."


Michael Card - "Now that I've held Him in my arms" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBZiPRPogn0#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

Out of the East came some men,who saw a star,that proclaimed the birth of a king.

Matthew 2

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him."

3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born. 5 "In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

6 "'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
    are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
    who will shepherd my people Israel.'"


We Will Find Him - The Nativity Story (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPYDEsbOFj0#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

Matthew 2

7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."

9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. 12 And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

My King and My God (Wise Men's Song) - Todd Koeppen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT6oDa4E1Oo#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

Jackie Evancho O Holy Night - O Holy Night Christmas Album CD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWcq6JCL1cQ#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]