do you think you're beautiful?
what makes you beautiful?
what steps have you taken to make yourself 'beautiful'?
Katia,
We have an image of physical beauty and for me it has gone with time.
We also have an inner beauty and that we can always develop.
W
Do I think I'm beautiful? No. But that was never a goal that I believed I could reach, so I haven't tried.
Subjective question Katia. What do you think makes one beautiful?
I am beautiful! It's true! (I saw my face in a crowded place...) Because people tell me all the time that I am. I must be.
Actually, I think it's mostly my presence or aura (and that I am blonde and statuesque) that they are responding to, these are mostly guys on the street but lately I have been getting a lot of compliments from women (look fabulous, really cute, style to spare) but with women, some of it is based on my style of dress, which is unique, and that says a lot because women in San Francisco are among the most stylish in the US.
Quote from: togetherwecan on May 10, 2007, 12:21:42 PM
Subjective question Katia. What do you think makes one beautiful?
my questions are very straightforward.
Quotedo you think you're beautiful?
what makes you beautiful?
what steps have you taken to make yourself 'beautiful'
what i think of beauty does not matter (on this thread at least)
Quote from: Katia on May 10, 2007, 12:58:48 PM
Quote from: togetherwecan on May 10, 2007, 12:21:42 PM
Subjective question Katia. What do you think makes one beautiful?
my questions are very straightforward.
Quotedo you think you're beautiful?
what makes you beautiful?
what steps have you taken to make yourself 'beautiful'
what i think of beauty does not matter (on this thread at least)
are you talking about visual beauty or the whole enchilada?
Quote from: togetherwecan on May 10, 2007, 01:02:19 PM
Quote from: Katia on May 10, 2007, 12:58:48 PM
Quote from: togetherwecan on May 10, 2007, 12:21:42 PM
Subjective question Katia. What do you think makes one beautiful?
my questions are very straightforward.
Quotedo you think you're beautiful?
what makes you beautiful?
what steps have you taken to make yourself 'beautiful'
what i think of beauty does not matter (on this thread at least)
are you talking about visual beauty or the whole enchilada?
physical beauty. i already know that all of you have beautiful "souls" and blah blah blah, so let's keep the discussion on topic.
Interesting question Katia, but beauty is seen differently in each persons eyes.
I don't consider myself to be "beautiful", but, I am more pleased now with what I see in the mirror that what I used to see.
Sarah L.
No, I'm not beautiful. Far from it. But my goal right now is to look female... I haven't had a chance to be vain yet, lol.
Weirdly, although I think I'm kinda ugly, it's actually encouraging in a way - because I'm starting to see myself as a woman with icky masculine features, rather than a male with somewhat feminine ones.
Yea, I know I'm weird...
~Kate~
Dare anyone answer you! lol! When I saw your question it took me back to primary school..and I will not say how long ago that was. There was this georgous girl there. She walked like she was a princess and her face was like an angel. Everyone was speechless around her because her beauty was unreal. I can see her face like it was yesterday. Well, as this beauty's personality came to bloom in front of us over time she became very ugly. She had a cold heart, was completely self-centered, had a foul mouth and very unpleasant to be around. Sure she had boyfriends but they were for very short terms and they never went back. I felt sad for her, it was as if her beauty was.... deceiving.... her. In conlusion, I will say that, as for myself I do not think I am ugly, I feel beautiful at times, but my body will become very wrinkled and probably arthritic someday with those age spots too, the only beauty worth noting comes from inside. I know it sounds cliche or idealistic but I think it is so true. The personality, character, and soul is what makes someone beautiful.
Not really, my legs are my best feature :) I had acne real bad as a kid so my face is not real smooth without a ton of makeup.
Sometimes I do think I'm beautiful and sometimes I don't. I think it's more about self perception. Unfortunately, right now I don't think I am. :(
Well, I'm feeling beautiful once again. I got a glimpse in the mirror and was happy with what I saw. For some strange reason my lips tend to look better without lipstick. ??? Oh well.
Now to answer the other questions. I think my overall appearance and demeanor make me beautiful. Plus people tell me all the time.
I wear makeup and dress nicely usually, but even on days I only wear capris and eyeliner I think I look good as long as I do my hair and my clothes match. I also think a lot of beauty is a reflection of how you feel about yourself. I dress for myself and wear what makes me happy and it shows.
Quote from: Katia on May 10, 2007, 11:59:56 AM
do you think you're beautiful?
Of course I am. I'm gorgeous! :-*
Quote
what makes you beautiful?
I look at myself in the mirror everyday. Specifically, my eyes, my hair, my soft skin, my youthful appearance make me beautiful. I have also been told that I'm beautiful by many guys. ;D
Quotewhat steps have you taken to make yourself 'beautiful'?
Surgically? very little. I guess I am just lucky to have good genes but most importantly, to have transitioned when young.
Christina Aguilera Lyrics
Beautiful
Every day is so wonderful
And suddenly, it's hard to breathe
Now and then, I get insecure
From all the fame, I'm so ashamed
I am beautiful no matter what they say
Words can't bring me down
I am beautiful in every single way
Yes, words can't bring me down
So don't you bring me down today
To all your friends, you're delirious
So consumed in all your doom
Trying hard to fill the emptiness
The piece is gone and the puzzle undone
That's the way it is
You are beautiful no matter what they say
Words won't bring you down
You are beautiful in every single way
Yes, words won't bring you down
Don't you bring me down today...
No matter what we do
(no matter what we do)
No matter what they say
(no matter what they say)
We're the song inside the tune
Full of beautiful mistakes
And everywhere we go
(everywhere we go)
The sun will always shine
(sun will always shine)
And tomorrow we might wake on the other side
All the other times
We are beautiful no matter what they say
Yes, words won't bring us down
We are beautiful no matter what they say
Yes, words can't bring us down
Don't you bring me down today
Don't you bring me down today
Don't you bring me down today :P :-*
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Katia on May 10, 2007, 11:59:56 AM
do you think you're beautiful?
what makes you beautiful?
what steps have you taken to make yourself 'beautiful'?
Yes
My smile
I brush my teeth and visit the dentist often!
;)
Cindi
No, last time I went out, men began clawing out their eyes and women were slipping in the juice from the leaking eyeballs clawed out by those desperate hands.
The sight of me will spawn legends and myths of a beast that terrorized a hapless town. A he/she/it thing that was so hideous to look at my entire blood line was sought out and destroyed so my ugliness could not infect the world.
My beauty inside has turned black and vile from those that have shunned me for not having any exterior beauty. I have taken that hatred and turned it in and absorbed it in such quantities that if it were to leak it out, it would make a Paris Hilton.
Vanity is stupid, seriously. All women are vain to a point or there would be no cosmetics or heels. But to answer a thread such as this one would have to take either a sense of humor side or go to the other side and be mean.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I find beautiful may be ugly to somebody else. True beauty comes from within. This thread should be locked for stupidity.
Just because you look so good on the outside doesn't mean you are beautiful. Could mean you are just a pretty Bitch.
Quote from: Lori on May 10, 2007, 08:33:07 PM
Bitch.
That, I am as well, I can assure you. ;D
tink :icon_chick:
H
Quote from: Tink on May 10, 2007, 08:38:16 PM
Quote from: Lori on May 10, 2007, 08:33:07 PM
Bitch.
That, I am as well, I can assure you. ;D
tink :icon_chick:
Hey... no hoarding! I want in!
Cindi
Beautiful? Me? He heeee....
It would be a plus.....
but all I ever wanted.....needed, was to be a woman.
Happy Woman, Bev
Three's company, right. Ask Melissa. I qualify in the bitch department.
I think that one of the fallacies of western culture is that we try to disconnect body and soul. It is not an either/or kind of thing. It is a both/and. If you think you look ugly, for instance, you probably will feel that way. And the reverse is true. Just look at how many average-looking women got to be really popular because they had a personality that outshines their acceptable, but less than stellar looks. Or to put it another way, can't we spot someone who is in the midst of depression by the look on their face? Why are all brides beautiful? It's not just the makeup or the dress. It's joy inside.
OK, I'll try to answer the question:
Not yet. But I hope I am beautiful inside and that it is beginning to show outside. Towards that end I have enrolled at Tranni-U here at Susans, I have had a professional teach me about makeup, and designed experiences for myself to develop confidence.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Im stunning! It took me a few years (and FFS) to find the confidence to see the beauty in me. When I was a child I hated myself but when I look at pickies of myself now I dont know why. I was so sweet with a pretty face, and beautiful eyes. I can only put it down to lack of confidence, partly because of being bullied about my gender issues. Now there may be things I would like to change about myself (still) but fundamentally Im very happy with my looks.
DO I THINK IM beautiful? ummmm most of the time, but not allways... sometimes have those horrable disphoria attacks where I think IM some sort of hidious swamp creature that dried up in the desert sun and was messed on by some pidgions........
Am I beautiful.... Hell yes. I most deffinatly am :) thankyou.
What makes me beautiful? Well, mostly Attitude, if your confident and believe in yourself it shines through... Physicaly I take good care of myself, try to eat healthy, maintain my weight with in a certian range, dress appropriatly for my bodyshape and age... makesure to keep clean *SHrugs* stuff most everyone should do.... OH, HRT ofcorse... that has made a huge physical diffrence LoL. But in the end its all ATTITUDE!! yeah! and anyone who dosnt believe me needs to meet me face to face >;) or anyone else who is beautiful for that matter.
Shame on you Tink, Cindi and Kristi for use the B**** word for describing yourself.
You are 3 of my great friends here and you all have help me out in so many ways in my times of need. Do not put yourselfs down if you are moody ETC - you have all been throught a lot and come out (or are coming out) the other side. I do not want to hear you describe yourselfs with that type of language again. You are 3 wonderful and caring people.
Tink :icon_hug: - I would be no where without your encouragment and honesty when I needed it.
Cindi :icon_hug: - You know how much I value talking to you - it seams I am on your path.
Kritis :icon_hug: Your stories have been fantastic - thank you for chatting to me and allowing me to get to know you. We are on similar paths SIS.
Alice
Quote from: Tink on May 10, 2007, 05:43:07 PM
Quote from: Katia on May 10, 2007, 11:59:56 AM
do you think you're beautiful?
Of course I am. I'm gorgeous! :-*
your beautiful inside and out :) :) :) :icon_dance: see, eveybody loves u. ;)
& I'm dancin :icon_dance:
Its one of these things. Talking about beauty and attractiveness is one those hot tamale subjects amongst TS; I wish it wasn't!! That way, people wouldn't do the most extreme form of FFS when all they needed was a tweek.
Others seek beauty in FFS the beauty nature didn't give them under the excuse of looking more feminine; its like straight on saying they want to be an attractive women, not just a women, would get them thrown out of the TS community.
My opinion, If your were passable before and do the most extreme form of FFS, your not doing it only for looking more like a women; saying that is kind of insult to the hundreds of millions of women with one of these imperfections: big chins, large jaws, large noses, etc. In fact, most women have one of the "male" imperfections we are trying to dump!!
People do FFS for vanity as much as for congruence; I'd just wish they'd admit this. Its like a bad thing to admit your ripping all your face open because you want to look pretty, oh the horror of vanity... Any cosmetic surgery, until 10 years ago, was seen as a pretty extreme thing to do to oneself; having the FFS works in great part for vanity, I'm sure carries a certain stigma. Better to say its for removing those ugly male trait and avoid scrutiny.
If FFS was seen esthetic decision instead of core identity thing, TS in between them, would be more open in slapping some sense in those that think they need tons of it to look more feminine. For now, we walk on pins and needles and rarely confront those that we think go to far.
Anyway, I do think I look pretty after nearly a year of HRT and a light FFS surgery that I did in parts to alievate my disphoria and in parts because I couldn't stand to be an ugly woman! (there I've said it, slap me now :-). I'm attractive not in a girl next door way, many here are attractive in this way, more in a femme fatale, eat males for breakfast, way (I can live with that... hehe). Now, I just have to put these looks to work and start eating men ;-).
Kiera, we 've basicaly have the same name.
Keira and Kiera are alternate british spellings of the irish name Ciara.
(You know that of course :-).
My mother preferred Kiera, but I really liked Keira Knightley's name since the first time I heard it and it stuck in my head. In my 20's I was using another name when I almost transitioned "Nadia", because I idolized Nadia Comaneci (the gymnast star of the 1976 Montreal Olympic).
Beauty is relative, I just looked at my old passport photo (taken in 97) and my new one and it is quite remarkable. (Wish I could post them)
I
I am still not happy with my appearance though, I need to tone up, lose 20 more pounds and get a BA.
I also wish I had more mature looking breasts, I have been spending a lot of time at the gym and have seen more boobs than I think I have seen up close in my life (and that is alot) What I notice is that my nipples still look like a pubescent girl's not like a mature woman's.
Anyway, I am pretty comfortable with my body (except that one part) I have found myself engaged in conversations with other women while I was undressed from the waist up and it's just like we were chatting at Starbuck's. The socialization that is taking place for me at the women's gym has been more beneficial for my confidence than any other post-transition experience. I can't wait until I get back form Thailand and not have to worry about the towel slipping off.
Right now, I have a bad zit on my lip so I don't feel so beautiful.
Quote from: Lisbeth on May 10, 2007, 12:18:37 PM
Do I think I'm beautiful? No. But that was never a goal that I believed I could reach, so I haven't tried.
I am cute, though.
I think Im beautiful. I had better be after spending so much money on FFS ~laugh~ I dont feel like a supermodel or Hollywood material though...
Even though nay people consider my girlfriend ugly she is to me the most beautiful looking woman over the face of the earth, and I love her deeply...
My point is... No matter how you look, you will always be beautiful to someone different to yourself...
Moi? Not even close. Oh with the right makeup and lighting, I don't scare little children but beautiful? No.
Beverly
I don't think I'm bad looking for an old broad.
Robyn
Only 25 more days of being a youthful 69
Quote from: Robyn on May 11, 2007, 11:01:10 PM
Only 25 more days of being a youthful 69
Robyn, I love this attitude!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on May 11, 2007, 11:04:38 PM
Quote from: Robyn on May 11, 2007, 11:01:10 PM
Only 25 more days of being a youthful 69
Robyn, I love this attitude!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
kristy's a hottie to. her soul is beautiful as what she look like :) :) :)
Quote from: Hidrix on May 11, 2007, 11:50:13 PM
kristy's a hottie to. her soul is beautiful as what she look like :) :) :)
Than's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said to me. I may just have to join that dance!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi44.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff8%2Flittleblue71%2Fsmilies%2Fthblushing.gif&hash=c0a2385cdc6ce5a1e69006824af9041d77f837ac)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Lori on May 10, 2007, 08:33:07 PM
No, last time I went out, men began clawing out their eyes and women were slipping in the juice from the leaking eyeballs clawed out by those desperate hands.
The sight of me will spawn legends and myths of a beast that terrorized a hapless town. A he/she/it thing that was so hideous to look at my entire blood line was sought out and destroyed so my ugliness could not infect the world.
My beauty inside has turned black and vile from those that have shunned me for not having any exterior beauty. I have taken that hatred and turned it in and absorbed it in such quantities that if it were to leak it out, it would make a Paris Hilton.
Vanity is stupid, seriously. All women are vain to a point or there would be no cosmetics or heels. But to answer a thread such as this one would have to take either a sense of humor side or go to the other side and be mean.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I find beautiful may be ugly to somebody else. True beauty comes from within. This thread should be locked for stupidity.
Just because you look so good on the outside doesn't mean you are beautiful. Could mean you are just a pretty Bitch.
i'm only interested on what the topic of this thread asks. so i have crossed out the rubbish. let's leave the crying and moaning for our therapists. i dont want to hear it nor am i forcing anyone to post on this thread. if you're not able to post constructive criticism on a thread, move on. plain and simple. period.
Quote from: Katia on May 12, 2007, 03:44:36 PM
i'm only interested on what the topic of this thread asks. so i have crossed out the rubbish. let's leave the crying and moaning for our therapists. i dont want to hear it nor am i forcing anyone to post on this thread. if you're not able to post constructive criticism on a thread, move on. plain and simple. period.
In response to Katia's call for constructive criticism:
Oh, I don't know about that Katia, I think Lori made some very important points in her post.
Quote
True beauty comes from within. [...] Just because you look so good on the outside doesn't mean you are beautiful.
I'm apt to agree with the idea that beauty is only skin deep.
Inner beauty is infinitely more important than outer beauty in my life philosophy.
In the Southern USA we a fine old saying - "Pretty is as pretty does."
Beauty, once again, is in the eye of the beholder.
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: EmeraldBeauty, once again, is in the eye of the beholder.
-Emerald
Very true. Beauty is subjective. The hypothesis I kind of favour for this is that we are instantly attracted to certain people based on characteristics that we subconsciously or consciously look for. One explanation is that our genes may drive us to appreciate one look after another in an attempt to limit our affections to a reasonable pool of partners. This would tie into our affinity for pair-bonding, ensuring that a couple stays together simply because there would be less of a chance of a random stranger catching the eye of one or the other. It focuses the attention on the other person. It cuts down unnecessary competition. There is also the school of thought that beauty is a cultural phenomenon, that we come to associate certain traits with beauty that may or may not be shared with people from other cultures.
However, beauty also is limited to appearance, and beauty might be an indicator of physical health, but we are social creatures. Anyone of any aesthetics may be completely alienating in their interpersonal relations. We are complex animals and the appreciation for beauty is something that is sparked by the senses, not by higher thinking. Someone who is beautiful may be smart and nice, but not any more often than someone who is not beautiful.
I think its desingenous to disregard beauty and attractiveness in a social settings. There's been plenty of studies stating its advantage; and my purely anectodal observations bear this out.
Of course, if your a beautiful [idiot], you may run into problems, but people will still give you more leway than someone less attractive. Its a fact that people right away assign good qualities to a more attractive person. That's why beauty, attractiveness often go hand in hand with charisma; you've already have a leg up, if you've got the attitude to exploit this favorable bias people have for you, you are set!! All of this is a sad but true fact. We can moan about the unfairness of such a thing, but who said life was fair...
The whole inner beauty smaltz for me sounds a bit like sour grapes. Like beautiful people somehow where more [idiots], or duplicitous than average and the way to compete with them is to be a better person!!!
Maybe people are just tired of the favorable bias that exists for them (assuming they are not [idiots]) and people wished they'd start on a level playing field with the all the rest.
Let me be serious now, and I am sorry Katia if you find my comments to be rubbish. ::) FYI beauty is all around us, it's environmental. Take a look at a blossoming flower and tell me if it isn't beautiful, or a butterfly that is coming out of its pupa, or a newborn's litte eyes or soft skin. All you have to do is to wake up in a sunny day and look at the sun when it first rises, this is true beauty IMO, and not some silicone-filled woman with a face made up like a circus clown or some handsome weirdo with a fat bank account.
tink :icon_chick:
And that is why I'm beautiful! ... because of the butterflies! Fer real.
Cindi
I consider myself to be beautiful, at least most of the time I do.
Physically speaking, there is now a lot that I like about my body. The height and shape of my body, my green eyes, the way my dimples show when I smile, the shape of my breasts. All quite subjective I understand, but still, I look at who I am in the mirror and what I see is something that I consider to be beautiful. I guess that hormones have done a lot for me in the 15 months that I have been taking them. I can barely see the person that I used to be there anymore.
In a way I think it may be a matter of finding beauty in truth. It's like my body is no longer lying to the world on my behalf, my internal view of myself has been externalised for the whole world to see. When I see myself I see the woman that had been hiding from the world for way too long. The simple fact that she isn't hiding anymore is a big factor. And really, if no-one else in the entire world could look at me now and tell me that they thought I was beautiful, I would still see myself that way. I'm not going to need FFS and bigger boobs, or expensive jewellry and designer clothes to feel like that.
I'm beautiful the way I am. Which is something I never thought I'd be able to say.
Megan
Nice to have you back Megan! You are beautiful. On the outside and on the inside too!
Cindi
I think theres allot of truth in beauty being only skin deep nowadays. Too many people are fixated on looking good and the part that they don't develop their personality. The most ugly people I have met have outward beauty.
I do think that taking care of yourself (however you define this) is good for you and will make you shine. Even if you dress yourself up once a month and take yourself out to let you hair down, its good for you.
It doesnt help the shallow and self centered society that we now live in. People can be cruel to people who might not quite look how they should and this gives people the insecurities that drives them to be fixated on their looks.
I think so, to a degree.
I've taken care of myself, and when I see myself in a mirror, I like what I see.
Also, others have expressed this to me.
I wish time would just stop or turn back so I could "do the right thing"
yea, everything sounds sugary and kinda corny to tell you the truth. tsk tsk tsk but take a look through a magazine like Maxim, FHM, Stuff, etc. How could women not feel the pressure to be "perfect"? The society we live in today has set very unrealistic expectations of "beauty". its not me, its not you, its not her, its society.
i know that beauty is subjective, yet, let's be honest here, if you are not carrying a large amount of weight and are generally toned, then you are almost there, right? or am i just a shallow, pretty bitch?
Well I'm up at esprit right now and Dr. O is going to be up on friday, so just for fun, I'll see what HIS opinion of my face is. I bet he'll suggest the works. :P
You bet Melissa, O would suggest the works to Cindy Crawford... She does have a good jaw and a some "ugly" masculine bossing.... How can a het male not see that!! ;-) ;-)
In your case it wouldn't be a question of "passing" anyway, more of a vanity issue. Which I'm all for unless it gets out of hand and narcissic. Almost everybody can look better with plastic surgery; many models have had surgery!!
Well, in the end, its not O who decides, its you.
Do whatever you think you need. Only you know your needs and all others are just spectators to your already beautiful life.
Quote from: Melissa on May 13, 2007, 11:59:25 PM
Well I'm up at esprit right now and Dr. O is going to be up on friday, so just for fun, I'll see what HIS opinion of my face is. I bet he'll suggest the works. :P
thats terrific melissa. someone i know had ffs with dr. ousterhaut. he did everything he could do to that face and at the end she looks more or less the same but female. ;) she paid almost 45k for her op. :o
u gotta be beutiful inside and out. ppl can tell when ur pretty on the outside and messed up inside.
Quote from: Katia on May 10, 2007, 11:59:56 AM
do you think you're beautiful?
what makes you beautiful?
what steps have you taken to make yourself 'beautiful'?
I don't personally think I'm oh so beautiful, but I do know I have some gorgeous features and try to show them off as much as I can to take away from the other not-so-great ones... lol
What makes me beautiful? I guess my demeanor more than anything, I have a wild sense of confidence (even if I have to fake it at times teehee) I'm also very courteous to people, other than than.... I dunno, I will say I have really cool eyes...
I guess the only steps I've taken is to learn everything I can about make-up, fashion, clothing, and lots of trial and error to find my own style, or at least one that works for me...
That's pretty much what I hear about him: that he suggests the works to everyone with perhaps 1 procedure left off just to throw off suspicion.
Quote from: Keira on May 14, 2007, 12:18:23 AM
Well, in the end, its not O who decides, its you.
Exactly and even if I did have FFS, I certainly wouldn't go to Dr. O. But hey, this will be free, so why not?
Dr Ousterhout gives everyone an honest assessment, the fact is most patients need the works, I was lucky in that I didn't need a rhino (only one of three patients out of a thousand) or a "tracheae shave" Female skulls are different from male skulls, that's all there is to it.
Dr O is one of the most respected surgeons anywhere in any field.
I totally disagree that almost everyone "needs" the works; that's saying that almost everybody need it to pass. What he's doing is beyond passing and veers into something else. Most women have a masculine facial trait and removing all of them is overkill and playing up to TS's insecurities.
Not to mention the whole esthetics thing, there are standards of beauty in plastic surgery and O veers off from them to create a wholy hyper-feminine face that corresponds to his own esthetic views. The most esthetically pleasant face is not necessarily the most extreme form of feminine face.
Just in my support group in montreal I'd say that only 1 really needs a lot of surgery to make her life as a women easier. In the others, almost none has substantial bossing, a big nose, a strong jaw or strong chin. They need at most some burring to smooth angles and a rhino (There are dozens of excellent doctors who do rhinos) Brassard, Z and several others do this kind of light work). The older women often would most benefit from a lip lift and plumper lips (not angelina jolie size though!). The fun thing with light work is that it can easily be done piecewise and recovery is usually quicker.
All those in the group would look better with a tweak, but none need a buldozer to "fix" them.
I find it hard to imagine changing my face, it's a person's signature on the world...I am my face.
on to the questions in hand.
do you think you're beautiful?
No. My body has very little shape, and is certainly impossible to fantasise about. However, I don't feel I am hideous for certain reasons I will list below.
what makes you beautiful?
Well, what saves the ugliness.
My hands; they are wide, rough and pitted with scars - they are hands that tell a story, and when I do tell a story there various flutterings help tell it.
My face; it is a bit chubby, freckly and prone to horrid looking shaving rash. It is also lopsided with a tiny mouth, huge eyes and a little weird nose. However...It is expressive and playful and seems to keep up with my moods well enough, so I love it.
what steps have you taken to make yourself 'beautiful'?
none, but i need some, what shall I do with my hair?
What Dr O does is correct the male dimensions of the skull to conform to the norm of the female skull, as far as the evaluation goes, it's pretty much all science. None of you here have a clear understanding of what Dr. Ousterhout does but instead base your opinion on hearsay.
Anyway, when people everywhere become as trans-aware as they are in San Francisco, some of you may have second thoughts about how well you "pass."
Maybe I should have stayed awake in French class, moved to Montreal and saved myself $32,000.
Just kidding of course, I never dreamed I would look like this, I will post a new pic soon, wish you could see my passport photo. (Oh I thought I passed too)
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:44:57 PM
It doesn't really matter if you can't foot the bill anyway.
I think that's a huge consideration, no matter who you go through. There are a few things I'd love to have done, but really I don't need them to pass. That is, unless everyone is just being polite to me lately. And the cost is rather prohibitive at this point. I keep being told that my features are naturally pretty feminine.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
i'm not interested in hearing about dr o dr l or dr x, i believe the topic of this thread is clear enough. you can always create a new thread and brag about the doctor you want.
Quote from: Kristi on May 14, 2007, 10:52:34 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:44:57 PM
It doesn't really matter if you can't foot the bill anyway.
I think that's a huge consideration, no matter who you go through. There are a few things I'd love to have done, but really I don't need them to pass. That is, unless everyone is just being polite to me lately. And the cost is rather prohibitive at this point. I keep being told that my features are naturally pretty feminine.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Based on your avatar, I would say they are right, is that your hair?
Quote from: Katia on May 14, 2007, 10:54:16 PM
i'm not interested in hearing about dr o or any other doctor for that matter. the topic of this thread is clear enough. you can always create a new thread and brag about the doctor you want.
Then just use the scroll button, I am not the one who turned the thread into an FFS discussion.
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:57:08 PM
Then just use the scroll button, I am not the one who turned the thread into an FFS discussion.
you are too funny. doesn't work with me though.
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:57:08 PM
Based on your avatar, I would say they are right, is that your hair?
Sure it's mine. I bought it. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg117.echo.cx%2Fimg117%2F1743%2Fsmile0094tm.gif&hash=43771e65460edfe9ba19843121f7ef7a846df9c1)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Katia on May 14, 2007, 11:00:17 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:57:08 PM
Then just use the scroll button, I am not the one who turned the thread into an FFS discussion.
you are too funny. doesn't work with me though.
Here is 50 cents,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftbn0.google.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AulmWDZ7JqrEbLM%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftonbladet.se%2Fnoje%2F0309%2F16%2FNOJE-16s34-fifty-82_368.jpg&hash=2f91ad10817408f9d4c2b981f14a39d1183fe594)call someone who cares
Quote from: Kristi on May 14, 2007, 11:00:28 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:57:08 PM
Based on your avatar, I would say they are right, is that your hair?
Sure it's mine. I bought it. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg117.echo.cx%2Fimg117%2F1743%2Fsmile0094tm.gif&hash=43771e65460edfe9ba19843121f7ef7a846df9c1)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Well, it looks beautiful, you look beautiful. I am tired of talking anatomy but very few mid-late transitioners do not need a scalp advancement.
Quote from: Keira on May 14, 2007, 05:45:48 PM
I totally disagree that almost everyone "needs" the works; that's saying that almost everybody need it to pass.
I have no need to change my face. It's a very nice face. It looks like a combination of my mother's and father's faces. What I find incompresensible is when I have told the few about what I am, the first thing out of their mouths is, "I never would have guessed. The surgeon did a good job." What is this about our society that jumps straight to a hypothetical surgeon?
Quote from: Katia on May 14, 2007, 11:00:17 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:57:08 PM
Then just use the scroll button, I am not the one who turned the thread into an FFS discussion.
you are too funny. doesn't work with me though.
Amen.
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 11:12:03 PM
I am tired of talking anatomy but very few mid-late transitioners do not need a scalp advancement.
Some people, like me, get by with creative hair arranging. I remember one night when I was standing at the bar in the TownHouse chatting with a guy, and a woman behind me pulled my hair just to see if it was real. Ouch. That wasn't very nice of her.
Quote from: Keira on May 14, 2007, 05:45:48 PM
I totally disagree that almost everyone "needs" the works; that's saying that almost everybody need it to pass. What he's doing is beyond passing and veers into something else. Most women have a masculine facial trait and removing all of them is overkill and playing up to TS's insecurities.
Not to mention the whole esthetics thing, there are standards of beauty in plastic surgery and O veers off from them to create a wholy hyper-feminine face that corresponds to his own esthetic views. The most esthetically pleasant face is not necessarily the most extreme form of feminine face.
Just in my support group in montreal I'd say that only 1 really needs a lot of surgery to make her life as a women easier. In the others, almost none has substantial bossing, a big nose, a strong jaw or strong chin. They need at most some burring to smooth angles and a rhino (There are dozens of excellent doctors who do rhinos) Brassard, Z and several others do this kind of light work). The older women often would most benefit from a lip lift and plumper lips (not angelina jolie size though!). The fun thing with light work is that it can easily be done piecewise and recovery is usually quicker.
All those in the group would look better with a tweak, but none need a buldozer to "fix" them.
Keira in short order you basically described my problems with Dr. O and "the works" better than I could.
Also Kristi wears a wig. Some girls its a no choice thing. I am in that same boat, even at 28. Plus I rather look bookish then beautiful.
Well beauty would be going a bit far ....
But I sure do look a lot prettier than I used to :) !!!!
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Before_and_After.jpg (1 year hrt)
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/changes06min.jpg (2 year hrt :o )
No surgery yet (well besides SRS) !
Laura x
Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 15, 2007, 07:44:18 PM
Well beauty would be going a bit far ....
But I sure do look a lot prettier than I used to :) !!!!
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Before_and_After.jpg (1 year hrt)
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/changes06min.jpg (2 year hrt :o )
No surgery yet (well besides SRS) !
Laura x
The metamorphosis is unbelievable, Laura. I'd say that estrogen is your friend ;) welcome to Susan's! :)
tink :icon_chick:
Yeah good old estrogen :-), it is, I was considered a pretty good looking man (except I didn't care!!) but everybody says I look even better as a woman (which is always good to hear and I do care about that :-). I just love the extra fat its put on my face and between E and retin-A my complexion is 10000 times better than before and I have 1/10 the wrinkles! I look 10 years younger; they all think I'm 30 (Oh I wish I was..) This is yesterday.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2F47weeks.jpg&hash=54092a5407ade5e4a3f13b246f264ee3e58336b2)
Before I loathed my long thin neck (6 inch from collar bone to ear, only 13 inch around!!) with my big honking head on top (23 inch!!), now I kinda like it. I look like like ET's sister ;-).
My profile has changed so much, and I like it even more than my front view, between HRT and rhino-brow bossing, that's its hard to believe that anyone could mistake me for a man before... ;-). Of course, they were always mistaken in identifying me that way; I just didn't have the courage to tell them.
Laura, the "pre" pictures of you are absolutely painful. I mean, I can see the agony behind the eyes. And those more recent of you display the very vibrance of life. Not only are the physical changes remarkable, but your happiness shines through every pixel on my screen.
Keira, I think that a long neck is a very feminine feature. Mine is a short stub! I don't complain about it much... for it is better than having no neck! I too wonder how anyone could mistake you for male.
And Tink... well, you are just a natural beauty all around. The world is a much better place with you in it.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 15, 2007, 11:53:46 PM
And Tink... well, you are just a natural beauty all around. The world is a much better place with you in it.
Cindi
yep shes hot. a princes :laugh: :icon_dance: :icon_dance: :icon_dance:
Quote
I totally disagree that almost everyone "needs" the works;
Keira in short order you basically described my problems with Dr. O and "the works" better than I could.
Also Kristi wears a wig. Some girls its a no choice thing. I am in that same boat, even at 28. .
It's not "a no-choice thing" There is surgical help available for that too. Wearing a wig is an absolute dead giveaway. I am not into being a reasonable of facsimile of a woman. I am at Ground Zero as far as trans-awareness goes, the Tenderloin of San Francisco, the standard for "passing" is higher here than it is anywhere else in the world. However, the way it is here may be the way it is everywhere 20 years from now,so one might consider that when planning for what one needs.
I did all this in my fifties, if I were in my twenties, I damn sure would make a plan to ensure that I would be read as female anywhere, anytime.
Then again, most seem to think that they will never be able to afford to pay for SRS. That is a negative mindset that only becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I have this real crazy attitude that I can get anything I want if I decide that I want it bad enough.
I showed my therapist my old passport photo yesterday and my new one and she was shocked by the change , she said no one would ever believe these were the same two people.
Quote from: Keira on May 15, 2007, 10:08:00 PM
Yeah good old estrogen :-), it is, I was considered a pretty good looking man (except I didn't care!!) but everybody says I look even better as a woman (which is always good to hear and I do care about that :-). I just love the extra fat its put on my face and between E and retin-A my complexion is 10000 times better than before and I have 1/10 the wrinkles! I look 10 years younger; they all think I'm 30 (Oh I wish I was..) This is yesterday.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2F47weeks.jpg&hash=54092a5407ade5e4a3f13b246f264ee3e58336b2)
Before I loathed my long thin neck (6 inch from collar bone to ear, only 13 inch around!!) with my big honking head on top (23 inch!!), now I kinda like it. I look like like ET's sister ;-).
My profile has changed so much, and I like it even more than my front view, between HRT and rhino-brow bossing, that's its hard to believe that anyone could mistake me for a man before... ;-). Of course, they were always mistaken in identifying me that way; I just didn't have the courage to tell them.
Hehehehe I have this weird fetish with the whole neckline area (and eyes, I'm big on the eyes... lol)... it's like my "make or break" area....
You look to have a very feminine neckline, and all-around feminine features in general.... I think you're beautiful :D
....And, for the record, TINK YOU ARE SOOOOOOO CUTE!!!! LOL
*and, off she goes!* Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....
No.
No, I'm not beautiful. Steph and Cindi are, but I am not. But it is not a concern.
I would however say that I am attractive and actually, sexy.
--The [continuing] DIY electro has done wonders for my face and skin.
--HRT has had a nearly miraculous feminizing effect on the body in general.
--I'm athletic and very fastidious about my diet.
--I use skin moisturizer regularly.
--I use 'dermabrasion' with outstanding effect on my facial skin.
--Some facial plastic surgery has been accomplished, vastly improving appearance.
--My style of movement is ballet-like and graceful. Controlled.
--I smile and laugh much more now than I ever have, in over 50 years of life.
And do you know what Katia? :'( I started to cry, as I wrote that last statement....
There were far too many years, girl.... :'( :'(
Well, considering I never liked the body I have now, the answer is no . I don't find myself beautiful (not that I don't think men are beautiful. They are. Its just I was not meant to be one). But I love myself for what I am inside, and try to make my outward appearance look as much as what I feel It should be, and one day hope that I will have a body that completely matches up with my gender. That day is far off, since I can only dream of affording surgery at this time, but I'm ready to start hormone therapy and other presurgery therapies, and atleast get half way to my goal for now ^_^
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 16, 2007, 07:18:23 AM
Quote
Also Kristi wears a wig. Some girls its a no choice thing. I am in that same boat, even at 28. .
It's not "a no-choice thing" There is surgical help available for that too. Wearing a wig is an absolute dead giveaway. I am not into being a reasonable of facsimile of a woman.
Well Melissa, thanks so very much for enlightening us. I guess I never realized that every time I go out it is a dead giveaway. Apparently when I leave my house only stupid people congregate around me. And it IS a no-choice thing. At least for me. I truly wish it were not so, but it is. Please don't make assumptions and blanket statements like this unless you know someone's whole story, medical history, and goals.
From the dead giveway,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
While I don't condone blanket statments, I do a agree that wigs can often be a giveway; in Brassard's office, I could spot 2 right away out of 6 TS there (there may be others I didn't see, so some are indeed hard to spot). Although, I admit that context made discovering those easier (since I know many older TS do wear them).
Its the style, too dense hair, uniformity of color (which gives a unatural sheen) and too perfect hair at all time, not quite natural movement, color and reflectivity in daylight. I would agree that most people don't pay that much attention to the hair of the person in front of them so in most cases all of this really doesn't matter and nobody will know.
All of this can be taken care off if you're willing to pick a top quality wig and have it cut to suit your face; reducing density by having the wig layered almost always a good thing, almost nobody over 50 has the extra dense hair most wigs have.
My aunt is on quasi continuous chemo and has no hair and her wing is very very good even at close range. So, its very possible to get a very good wig that's unnoticeable, yet not everybody gets one for whatever reasons.
Also, I do agree that its not always possible to fix baldness through medical means yet so you have a female like density. They can somewhat restore a male like density.... But that's not what were looking for.
Very soon, with hair cloning (they are experimenting this right now), maybe it will be possible for everyone to get dense hair.
Quote from: Keira on May 21, 2007, 11:04:50 PM
While I don't condone blanket statments, I do a agree that wigs can often be a giveway; in Brassard's office, I could spot 2 right away out of 6 TS there (there may be others I didn't see, so some are indeed hard to spot). Although, I admit that context made discovering those easier (since I know many older TS do wear them).
Its the style, too dense hair, uniformity of color (which gives a unatural sheen) and too perfect hair at all time, not quite natural movement, color and reflectivity in daylight. I would agree that most people don't pay that much attention to the hair of the person in front of them so in most cases all of this really doesn't matter and nobody will know.
All of this can be taken care off if you're willing to pick a top quality wig and have it cut to suit your face; reducing density by having the wig layered almost always a good thing, almost nobody over 50 has the extra dense hair most wigs have.
My aunt is on quasi continuous chemo and has no hair and her wing is very very good even at close range. So, its very possible to get a very good wig that's unnoticeable, yet not everybody gets one for whatever reasons.
Also, I do agree that its not always possible to fix baldness through medical means yet so you have a female like density. They can somewhat restore a male like density.... But that's not what were looking for.
Very soon, with hair cloning (they are experimenting this right now), maybe it will be possible for everyone to get dense hair.
Exactly Keira. I literally either have to wait to see if HRT is effective or nothing can be done. I may have to wait for the new methods (cloning and wound therapy). My hair is severly thin on all sides, in addition to receding hair line (this goes well beyond simple male pattern baldness, this is the entire scalp thinning out. Transplant and scalp advancement CANNOT be done, I simply do not qualify because of this). Basically if HRT does not work its either a weave or a wig. I am SMART enough to do Human Hair with a color blend and darker hair (no unnatural sheen, it acts like real hair, and there is only one spot that you have to be ultra aware to catch it to be a wig, and I am going to get it cut and styled where that spot is hidden). I also picked a wig that fit my face. I was very smart about buying a wig. For some people it is a no choice thing Melissa, whether you like to admit it or not, including some younger GG I know. The thing is if you are smart, it takes a very trained eye to spot a wig, and most of the time, its not going to be a TS wearing one.
I cannot afford the annual cost of a hair system.
If a year from now HRT works I would be very excited, but if it doesn't I will get over it. and get on with wearing wigs. Contrary to your belief, some things cannot be solved through surgery. Do not make blanket statements or blanket assumptions. Do not make comments without knowing a persons situation. I will say do not make comments without knowing a persons goals either.
The thing is last I checked, I am on the YOUNG side (28). When there is severe hair loss...everything goes rather quickly, and the ONLY possible fix is HRT, and if that works is no garuntee, surgery is NOT an option, and how well HRT works is no garuntee either. If I was not transitioning I would literally have no hair by the age of 34.
The thing is most of the problems of wigs that make them a dead giveaway are avoidable if you get a Hand tied Human Hair wig and are selective and get it styled. The issue is you have to get one that matches your face. The thing is most TS are pretty dumb about picking one out, get artificial wigs, but they also have quite a few other things that prevent them from passing that is why it is so readily apparent. It is a lack of asthetics, and there are other things there that are problems. I also know some who pull it off brilliantly. If you avoid artificial wigs, you avoid the issues with wigs being readily apparent, this is how the GG I know pull off wigs, they avoid artificial wigs, because well..they look fake because everything is too perfect and all the problems Keira was describing are present.
I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I am just giving my opinion, and I am steadfast in my belief that, in my world, a wig on a white woman is a dead giveaway, unless it's Halloween or Bay to Breakers, whatever. And I don't know anyone who can't spot a wig a mile away, sometimes I think I live in some parallel universe, maybe I do.
Some women are more confident about their looks than others and some seek confirmation of their attractiveness from other females, or males! Beauty is a matter of opinion. But yes, I do think I am beautiful. ;) Quite a few people have told me that too.
I do not consider myself beautiful. I have been called beautiful, attractive, pretty, etc but ultimately still have never found that someone special. Besides I still see pieces of the old me in the mirror and that drives me nuts.
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 22, 2007, 01:59:35 PM
I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I am just giving my opinion, and I am steadfast in my belief that, in my world, a wig on a white woman is a dead giveaway, unless it's Halloween or Bay to Breakers, whatever. And I don't know anyone who can't spot a wig a mile away, sometimes I think I live in some parallel universe, maybe I do.
I don't have much contact with people who wear wigs from day to day. I'll admit that. I am, however, a member of the cosplay subculture. Wigs are the order of the day. I have PERSONALLY seen probably.... well, if I consider that Anime North last year had over 11k people, and that I've been going for a few years and maybe a quarter of all cosplayers use wigs and half of all con-goers are wig wearers... I figure I've seen somewhere around 5-6 THOUSAND wigs. Of those, I have seen wigs in all colours, shapes and sizes that I honestly COULD NOT TELL were wigs until a cosplayer got too hot and pulled the wig off to scratch underneath. I've seen at least a hundred people, likely more, that fit this description, in hair colours ranging from bubblegum pink, to white, to black, to brown, to red.
There is such a thing as good wigs. You just have to do your research.
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 22, 2007, 01:59:35 PM
I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I am just giving my opinion, and I am steadfast in my belief that, in my world, a wig on a white woman is a dead giveaway, unless it's Halloween or Bay to Breakers, whatever. And I don't know anyone who can't spot a wig a mile away, sometimes I think I live in some parallel universe, maybe I do.
That is probably the case.
You have to realize, it may be harder to pass in SF because being TS is more common, but it is not as big a deal when you don't pass.
It is different in different cities. I have only been clocked once...even up close, and it was not because of my wig...but my credit card (and even then it took them awhile to figure things out). To most people with the wig, I just look like a waifish flat chested woman. Even if somebody caught onto the wig, the first thing that pops into thier mind is not TS, but rather cancer.
The truth is the first things that will give you away is height, frame and then facial features, not whether or not you are wearing a wig. I know perfectly passable TS who have to wear wigs. They pass because their complete presentation is right. Even if people catch onto the wig, that may be ALL they catch onto, and they will not necessarily leap to the TS assumption if everything else looks right.
I am fortunate enough to be a waif. My height is 5'9". The only thing that ever screamed male on me regarding my face was my facial hair. Not saying there is not other masculine features, but my face has always been this wierd mix of masculine and feminine features. Nothing really masculine enough to justify FFS, I have things I would personally change (minor teaks to the nose and brow, and my ears, but thats not a masculine/feminine issue, I just think they look weird), but nothing that keeps me from passing. Quite literally my only issue is my hair.
I am not beautiful by any means (nor do I want to be, again consider goals, not everybody wants to be beautiful)...but I also don't scream male. Even during the male days, I was to androgynous, even with the thinning hair to really be seen as male.
i never answered my own thread. tsk tsk tsk yes, i'm beautiful. i don't need words from a man [or a woman] to make me feel beautiful or to justify to myself that I am beautiful. a truly beautiful woman knows she is beautiful because she exudes beauty in everything she touches, says, thinks and does.
Makes beauty sound a little like a disease.
Katia,
I feel like I have the ability to be beautiful, that keeps me going. I definitely feel beautiful on the inside. I think that with a little surgery, I'll be sey :) Meghan
No I don't.
Because I own a mirror and an objective mind.
Jessica
beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I happen to love myself and think I am very beautiful. Beauty does not have to be covergirl hotness. Simply accepting and loving ourselves makes us beautiful to the world around us and most importantly to ourselves.
Really?
Yep ;)
Because I'm quite keen on myself, but there is no way I'd describe myself as beautiful. Expressive perhaps, but not beautiful.
Quote from: Katia on May 22, 2007, 03:37:20 PM
... a truly beautiful woman knows she is beautiful because she exudes beauty in everything she touches, says, thinks and does.
Hmm that sounds like inner beauty. I can design a beautiful garden that all can admire, or cut the molding for a room and give it character, or make a meal that can make your mouth water, or make people laugh. However I look like a gorilla without the hair. I would opt for the wig that cousin It uses on the Adams family.
Quote from: Katia on May 22, 2007, 03:37:20 PM
i never answered my own thread. tsk tsk tsk yes, i'm beautiful. i don't need words from a man [or a woman] to make me feel beautiful or to justify to myself that I am beautiful. a truly beautiful woman knows she is beautiful because she exudes beauty in everything she touches, says, thinks and does.
Well by that definition, I am not beautiful as there are many times when things I say, touch or think and do exude things other than beauty.
Quote from: Amy T. on May 22, 2007, 03:17:00 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 22, 2007, 01:59:35 PM
I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I am just giving my opinion, and I am steadfast in my belief that, in my world, a wig on a white woman is a dead giveaway, unless it's Halloween or Bay to Breakers, whatever. And I don't know anyone who can't spot a wig a mile away, sometimes I think I live in some parallel universe, maybe I do.
That is probably the case.
You have to realize, it may be harder to pass in SF because being TS is more common, but it is not as big a deal when you don't pass.
It is different in different cities. I have only been clocked once...even up close, and it was not because of my wig...but my credit card (and even then it took them awhile to figure things out). To most people with the wig, I just look like a waifish flat chested woman. Even if somebody caught onto the wig, the first thing that pops into thier mind is not TS, but rather cancer.
The truth is the first things that will give you away is height, frame and then facial features, not whether or not you are wearing a wig. I know perfectly passable TS who have to wear wigs. They pass because their complete presentation is right. Even if people catch onto the wig, that may be ALL they catch onto, and they will not necessarily leap to the TS assumption if everything else looks right.
In that case, I would just shave my head. I suspect that your threshold for passibilty is a lot lower than mine. Almost all TS woman will be read when closely scrutinized by someone who knows what to look for and wearing a wig is a sure way to get that scrutiny.
BTW I "clock" transwomen several times a day, I don't run up to them and taunt them, in fact, I try to avoid them. So how does one know when she is clocked?
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 12:29:32 AM
Quote from: Katia on May 22, 2007, 03:37:20 PM
i never answered my own thread. tsk tsk tsk yes, i'm beautiful. i don't need words from a man [or a woman] to make me feel beautiful or to justify to myself that I am beautiful. a truly beautiful woman knows she is beautiful because she exudes beauty in everything she touches, says, thinks and does.
Well by that definition, I am not beautiful as there are many times when things I say, touch or think and do exude things other than beauty.
Quote from: Amy T. on May 22, 2007, 03:17:00 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 22, 2007, 01:59:35 PM
I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I am just giving my opinion, and I am steadfast in my belief that, in my world, a wig on a white woman is a dead giveaway, unless it's Halloween or Bay to Breakers, whatever. And I don't know anyone who can't spot a wig a mile away, sometimes I think I live in some parallel universe, maybe I do.
That is probably the case.
You have to realize, it may be harder to pass in SF because being TS is more common, but it is not as big a deal when you don't pass.
It is different in different cities. I have only been clocked once...even up close, and it was not because of my wig...but my credit card (and even then it took them awhile to figure things out). To most people with the wig, I just look like a waifish flat chested woman. Even if somebody caught onto the wig, the first thing that pops into thier mind is not TS, but rather cancer.
The truth is the first things that will give you away is height, frame and then facial features, not whether or not you are wearing a wig. I know perfectly passable TS who have to wear wigs. They pass because their complete presentation is right. Even if people catch onto the wig, that may be ALL they catch onto, and they will not necessarily leap to the TS assumption if everything else looks right.
In that case, I would just shave my head. I suspect that your threshold for passibilty is a lot lower than mine. Almost all TS woman will be read when closely scrutinized by someone who knows what to look for and wearing a wig is a sure way to get that scrutiny.
BTW I "clock" transwomen several times a day, I don't run up to them and taunt them, in fact, I try to avoid them. So how does one know when she is clocked?
I have a very easy time ready TS who had dramatic FFS, why, because I know how to spot it a mile away. It comes with the territory of being TS. When you know what to look for, these things are much easier to figure out. In fact I have an easier time spotting radical FFS and other extensive cosmetic surgery then a passable TS wearing a wig. No offense, from all the pictures you posted I would figure out you were TS in seconds. The people most likely to spot a TS is another TS, it is a simple rule of thumb. You know what to look out for. Most people are not looking to closely for these things and seeking out somebody who is TS, so they never catch on. If passing with TS is a mark of passing, than it is to high a standard, why? Because most TS can catch on to another TS, unless it is somebody who transitioned very young (18-21)
It is not that my threshold is necessarily lower for passability. It is just I know what will pass in the general public most of the time, and on what levels that I do pass. Also having the input of GG helps, something most TS simply lack, and become very self conscious as a result. The other thing is I know the things that tip off most TS, frame and face, I do not have issues with, largely because I am deciding to transition under 30. The most passable transsexual women I know in fact, wear wigs (they transitioned in their early thirties). Why are they the most passable, because the face is extremely feminine naturally, they have naturally feminine frame, and they transitioned fairly young. Basically they look like women in every other way. When that is the case, when you don't need FFS and you have a small frame, well the wig is not going to be an issue. If the only damage is that done by DHT, which is likely the case if you are in your twenties or early thirties, your chances of being read while wearing a wig, unless the wig is god awful, is significantly decreased. Pure and simple. It is something that younger TS whose only issue is their hair figure out pretty quickly.
Most people do not know how to catch on whether you are wearing a wig or not if you know how to choose one. It is something that you can catch onto only if you have that extra level of perception that comes from being TS. Like I said if you are regularly spotted wearing a wig, you did not choose the right wig. If you get clocked as TS wearing a wig, the issues you have go beyond just the wig, and there are other things that are giving away your TS status. The wig is just part of what is getting the person clocked as TS, but there are generally speaking quite a few other things that generally give that person away, generally the person has a larger frame or their face is very masculine. If you are younger TS with hair issues with a small frame and good face, you often just get seen as a girl wearing a wig if somebody does spot the wig, because everything else says female. The older TS do not have this advantage because there are other things that are giving them away. There is a big difference between seen as a woman who is wearing a wig and being seen as a TS wearing a wig. The younger TS is more than likely going to be seen as a woman wearing a wig if they have a good face and small frame.
I feel beautiful but dont let that reflection in the mirror be my judge. Sometimes Ive downed myself but I notice that when Im looking in the mirror instead of pointing out one bad thing, I point out every other good thing about me.
Quote from: Katia on May 12, 2007, 03:44:36 PM
Quote from: Lori on May 10, 2007, 08:33:07 PM
No, last time I went out, men began clawing out their eyes and women were slipping in the juice from the leaking eyeballs clawed out by those desperate hands.
The sight of me will spawn legends and myths of a beast that terrorized a hapless town. A he/she/it thing that was so hideous to look at my entire blood line was sought out and destroyed so my ugliness could not infect the world.
My beauty inside has turned black and vile from those that have shunned me for not having any exterior beauty. I have taken that hatred and turned it in and absorbed it in such quantities that if it were to leak it out, it would make a Paris Hilton.
Vanity is stupid, seriously. All women are vain to a point or there would be no cosmetics or heels. But to answer a thread such as this one would have to take either a sense of humor side or go to the other side and be mean.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I find beautiful may be ugly to somebody else. True beauty comes from within. This thread should be locked for stupidity.
Just because you look so good on the outside doesn't mean you are beautiful. Could mean you are just a pretty Bitch.
i'm only interested on what the topic of this thread asks. so i have crossed out the rubbish. let's leave the crying and moaning for our therapists. i dont want to hear it nor am i forcing anyone to post on this thread. if you're not able to post constructive criticism on a thread, move on. plain and simple. period.
Do you mean if someone is not able to take constructive criticism, I shouldn't reply to these type of threads? I made a bet with somebody this would turn into an FFS thread.....WHOAH...IT DID!!!I
Seems to me, making others jealous by calling them old, exploiting thier youth and shoving it down others throats has become quite popular here lately. Just remember everybody gets older. I took the humor side because threads like these hurt somebody somewhere. Beauty is subjective.
I am glad so many are starting out younger these days. But respect must be paid to those brave and BEAUTIFUL women that paved the road making it easier for young TS to walk down. Things in the 70's and 80's were NOT like they are today. It is much safer and easier to transition because of what they did for us. Fear of not being passable or beautiful has kept many in the closet and many will remain locked in those prisons feeling they are to old or unpassable.
Out of curiosity, why is surgery or medical enhancements the save all super answer to the problems in this world?
Its only seen as a super solution because of the consequence of not passing in many places.
And also, lets face it because TS's like other women, face the same pressure to be beautiful that
feeds the plastic surgery industry. Until the 90's, only the idle rich did much plastic surgery, but now it has explosed and everybody's doing it, or at least considering it.
Even women in their 20's are getting bottoxed !!!! (bottox under 30 unless you've been living on the beach since you've been 13, is insane if you ask me).
Quote from: Lori on May 25, 2007, 07:13:54 AM
I am glad so many are starting out younger these days. But respect must be paid to those brave and BEAUTIFUL women that paved the road making it easier for young TS to walk down. Things in the 70's and 80's were NOT like they are today. It is much safer and easier to transition because of what they did for us. Fear of not being passable or beautiful has kept many in the closet and many will remain locked in those prisons feeling they are to old or unpassable.
Lori that thought is very beautiful.
...............................................
Each of us has to do what makes us feel comfortable. We probably could pass with less if we had more confidence. I think the American Idol winner, Jordan Sparks, is very pretty. However she has wide hands and big shoulders and she still is very pretty!
If you need and can afford lots of surgery to make you feel comfortable that is absolutely fine! ...And if you feel comfortable with little or no surgery that is fine too! You need to find comfort within yourself.
Personally I have already made arrangements with individuals on the other side of this forum to swap bodies.
Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 08:55:13 AM
Its only seen as a super solution because of the consequence of not passing in many places.
And also, lets face it because TS's like other women, face the same pressure to be beautiful that
feeds the plastic surgery industry. Until the 90's, only the idle rich did much plastic surgery, but now it has explosed and everybody's doing it, or at least considering it.
Even women in their 20's are getting bottoxed !!!! (bottox under 30 unless you've been living on the beach since you've been 13, is insane if you ask me).
So IOW, it is merely a way to ensure we buy into the myth that beauty is what is broadcast to us through the media? I know hoards of women (TS and GG) who do not fit that profile but are still beautiful. They have confidence in who they are and that makes them shine to the rest of the world.
Try this sometime, go to a highly populated area like a mall or other public gathering place. Look at the facial features and outward appearances of the natural women. More often than not there is going to be something that looks a little more masculine than would be expected. the idea that any woman could ever live up to any standard of perfection set forth by our "I win, you lose" society is preposterous.
But instead of taking control of our own lives and finding comfort in who we are, we look to outside methods to make us feel better on the inside. I guess if surgical modifications are the way to go to find inner-peace these days then i am the oddball out.
I am not denouncing you as person for the choices you make. I am only offering my perspective on the situation.
Renae (nice original name by the way),
While you say that many women have masculine features, etc
and that many of them are comfortalble about them (I do agree with that),
I don''t agree that all (or even most) of them would say no if you proposed to change those
features for the better (according to society's ideal of beauty) at no cost to
themselves (other than the risk of surgery). Its very easy to ride a high horse when not financially capable to do the ops. That is the real test. A truly confident women would say, I don't want
it regardless if its given to her on a silver platter.
We live in society, and for thousands of years, beauty and youth has played a big role in all cultures; its not a recent media invention (although its gained more prominence lately). Ignoring this influence is basically stepping out of mainstream society and entering our own sub-circle of it; nothing wrong with that if we realize that our perspective is not universal. For those reasons, women are more insecure about their looks than you can imagine. I hear this all the time from every GG I've met; that it is good thing or not doesn't matter, its a fact.
Why should we, as a group, be more comfortable than GG's; that's asking too much I think considering our own insecurities.
I'm not knocking all those that cannot ever afford surgery, not every TS can, just like not every GG can. But, again, its not because you can't afford it that can't want it if you could (nobility of the cashless ;-) doesn't exist for me and right now, I'm one of those cashless as I owe 25K with very thin revenues).
Currently, I want a hair transplant to fix my temple area (small holes, about 450 grafts for 2000 dollars), although its easily hideable and many GG's have thinning hair and worse temple than me, but I don't have the money to do it right now. Is it vanity to want to do it? Maybe? But I don't care... and I'lll do it as soon as I've got the money (or a loan).
Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 10:20:57 AM
Renae (nice original name by the way),
Let me explain my "nice original name" for you. unlike most people simply plucked a name out of thin air because it was cute, I actually did research on the meaning of names. The meaning of "Renae" in that spelling of it, means to be born again or start over. So I might have a name that other people but it does serve a purpose in my life.
TY for proving my point.
Renae I completely understand where you are coming from.
It is true many GG are very critical of themselves, and there are many that are not. There are many that are more apt to understand and pick up on these images and myth of beauty portrayed in the media and get to the point where they either ignore them or speak out against them. It is a large part of third wave feminism.
"I'm not knocking all those that cannot ever afford surgery, not every TS can, just like not every GG can." Keira this statement is a little loaded because it comes from the perspective that it is a matter of affordibility, and that every TS or GG wants cosmetic surgery or needs it. The reality is there are quite a few that do not want or need cosmetic surgery because we accept themselves for who we are in that respect. This comes from the same dialog that existed in the TS community that every TS woman needs FFS, and those that were critics of the proceedure were just jealous and could not afford it. The truth is, some of us have higher self acceptance and FFS is not always needed, and I think it is rarely if ever needed with younger TS, even though it is becoming increasingly common proceedure even for them. There is a point in changing things to pass and sometimes FFS is needed to pass, but I do have my share of criticisms about the community and how the concept of FFS has gotten to this point where many in the community view it as a necessity for every TS woman. It comes from the idea that being a woman means having a beautiful face. Sorry, its not for me, my issue is not with my face, but with my body. While HRT will improve my face, I personally have no issue with it now that most of the facial hair is removed. (My hair may be a different story, but gettin that fixed, if it can be fixed is not a matter of beauty).
For the most part I agree with you Renae. I personally come from a very similiar perspective on the issue. While many use gender dysphoria as an explanation the truth is many are buying into the media and societal myth of beauty. There needs to be an understanding that feminine beauty is something that can be very flexible and that greater self acceptance does not have to come from a knife.
Also to be honest, not everybody is really after beauty, for some self acceptance is much more important, and that self acceptance does not have to come from being beautiful.
Also I did not mean to really attack late transitioners on a previous post, but it was to make a point. While a late transitioner may be spotted by everybody while wearing a wig, it is not the wig that is giving them away. When transitioning so late in life it is often impossible to pass without FFS and the wig may just be part of the reason they can be spotted. This is where I will flat out say FFS has been a miricle, those who are transitioning later in life it actually does give them an opportunity to pass. For those of us who are fortunate enough to be transitioning at a fairly young age, that one little thing does not keep us from passing. I did not mean to be insulting, but it is a reality many of us transitioning in our late twenties and early thirties have to face. Passing in every other respect, but our hair, and wigs do make a huge difference.
At least I am not the only one that sees the errors in the ways of some.
Amy, you skipped something in reading my reply.
What I said is that the only way you can say if yes or not
you would not do FFS or plastic surgery is to have it offered to
you on a silver platter by the best surgeon in the world and refuse it.
What if you could do a painless quick Rhino, how many would do it?
If you don't do it because you will never have the funds, is it really
a choice? If your dirt poor, on the street and say you don't want SRS
is that really a choice to be a genderqueer or whatever...
Having to live with something is not the same thing as having a choice.
I have to live with not being able to have my own children, many GG are like that too, yet if someone offered to pay for me (say the public health care system paid for it), a not too dangerous way to have a functional female reproductive system, would I not be ecstatic and jump on it!!! Yes.
Many men live with baldness stoicly, but if you had a cheap, efficient way to restore a full head of hair, most would jump on that' even my best friend who's mostly bald and says he likes it like that. But, I know it really bothers him.
Assuming that all these woman would not do it is going
the total opposite direction than saying they would all do it.
I am going to state my mantra again since some seem to have a need to state theirs ad nauseum but there are an awful lot of women who are denial about their "need" for FFS. I see an awful lot of transwomen and most could benefit from at least one procedure or another and, quite frankly, most need some work. I am baffled as to why the transwomen in other places are so perfectly passable while the ones I see in the trans mecca of San Francisco are not.
Yes, it is baffling, one of the promises of AA is that things that used to baffle us, will not as we reach clarity. Something tells me that this will continue to baffle me.
Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:50:09 PM
What I said is that the only way you can say if yes or not
you would not do FFS or plastic surgery is to have it offered to
you on a silver platter by the best surgeon in the world and refuse it.
What if you could do a painless quick Rhino, how many would do it?
I know, i for one can say that i would most certainly do any of the proposed procedures in order to enhance my physical being. I have seen friends go through surgical alterations and it didn't do a damn thing for their distaste of their life. All the BS that made their life hell before they went under the knife was still there when the bruising and swelling went away. This is my warped underground second-class citizen point of view of the beauty mindf**k being played on every person who is willing to fall for it.
My financial situation has nothing to do with my decision of whether or not some medial procedure is going to make me more attractive to other people. I could easily go out right now and have one of several procedures done without batting an eyelash. I just happen to like my flat-chest, flabby ass, and tummy bulge a little too much to have them altered. I love my body and all of its "flaws" as some people would call them. I call them defining characteristics of who i am not what I was made to be.
This is starting to get out of the realm of informative and getting to be more personal than it should be.
Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:50:09 PM
Amy, you skipped something in reading my reply.
What I said is that the only way you can say if yes or not
you would not do FFS or plastic surgery is to have it offered to
you on a silver platter by the best surgeon in
the world and refuse it.
Wells stated, Miss K
Amy, if you don't mind me asking, are you pre-op, post-op or non-op? If you are pre, can you tell me when you plan on SRS?
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 02:20:27 PM
I am going to state my mantra again since some seem to have a need to state theirs ad nauseum but there are an awful lot of women who are denial about their "need" for FFS. I see an awful lot of transwomen and most could benefit from at least one procedure or another and, quite frankly, most need some work. I am baffled as to why the transwomen in other places are so perfectly passable while the ones I see in the trans mecca of San Francisco are not.
Yes, it is baffling, one of the promises of AA is that things that used to baffle us, will not as we reach clarity. Something tells me that this will continue to baffle me.
Maybe it has something to do with the water? ;)
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 02:23:45 PM
Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:50:09 PM
Amy, you skipped something in reading my reply.
What I said is that the only way you can say if yes or not
you would not do FFS or plastic surgery is to have it offered to
you on a silver platter by the best surgeon in
the world and refuse it.
Wells stated, Miss K
Amy, if you don't mind me asking, are you pre-op, post-op or non-op? If you are pre, can you tell me when you plan on SRS?
Pre, and yes I am planning SRS.
Like I said my issue is with my body, not my face. I am not exactly moved by media images of beauty or the idea of being beautiful, but I am absolutely frustrated with my male parts and my physical body as it stands.
Without question I would pass on FFS and maybe the rhino as well(I would have to think long and hard). FFS is not necessary and not even desired, and well the rhino...I am not sure if it would throw of my face, it would have to be minor. I have no deep issues with my face though.
As far as SRS and having a reproductive system, I would take it in a second, but those are different issues.
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 02:20:27 PM
I am baffled as to why the transwomen in other places are so perfectly passable while the ones I see in the trans mecca of San Francisco are not.
Those that don't pass in other places all moved to SF because they thought it would be a more accepting environment. ;D
Rhonda
very good theory! :)
People don't realize how insane the cost of living is in SFO and region (I've lived there so I know) for non professionals and are living hand to mouth. Hard to really take care of oneself when your barely ekking a living. There are so many homeless!!
Maybe because people know people there will be more tolerant than in Wisconsin, they put in less of an effort (or know that even though they don't have the money to pull it off, they will be accepted).
One of the women in our bi-weekly group is a refugee, she doesn't have money for electolysis or laser and has a very very dense beard (almost impossible to really cover). From her face to her her well defined muscled body, she doesn't pass at all. In every other city than Montreal and maybe SFO, she'd probably get beat on the street for defying the all mighty norm, yet in Montreal she survives.
Amy, I don't disagree, that everybody has a different view of what's female and in your book, beauty is not up there. That's noted. But, you have to admit that his point of view is not the mainstream one. As long as the mainstream doesn't try to ram a FFS operation down your throat, why bother with trying to convince others that dare to subscribe to the "damned" ;-) mainstream view. Such point of view are not devellopped overnight and it has survived intact (and even has got stronger lately) to a 30 years feminist "assault".
Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 05:02:13 PM
People don't realize how insane the cost of living is in SFO and region (I've lived there so I know) for non professionals and are living hand to mouth. Hard to really take care of oneself when your barely ekking a living. There are so many homeless!!
Maybe because people know people there will be more tolerant than in Wisconsin, they put in less of an effort (or know that even though they don't have the money to pull it off, they will be accepted).
One of the women in our bi-weekly group is a refugee, she doesn't have money for electolysis or laser and has a very very dense beard (almost impossible to really cover). From her face to her her well defined muscled body, she doesn't pass at all. In every other city than Montreal and maybe SFO, she'd probably get beat on the street for defying the all mighty norm, yet in Montreal she survives.
Amy, I don't disagree, that everybody has a different view of what's female and in your book, beauty is not up there. That's noted. But, you have to admit that his point of view is not the mainstream one. As long as the mainstream doesn't try to ram a FFS operation down your throat, why bother with trying to convince others that dare to subscribe to the "damned" ;-) mainstream view. Such point of view are not devellopped overnight and it has survived intact (and even has got stronger lately) to a 30 years feminist "assault".
It is a big reason why I despise the mainstream media, and I am part of the feminist assault on the concept of beauty that the mainstream media presents. I am a third wave feminist, a transsexual riot grrl at my very core. I am not sure the mainstream media has necessarily grown stronger, last I checked it has grown weaker with the rise and democratization of media that the internet brought. The sub-culture with its heavy feminist leanings in the US is as strong as ever because it has been the primary benefactor of the internet, and third wave feminism is beginning to bleed into the mainstream dialog (though it is often through stand up comics). As far as publications Bust and Bitch magazines, which are third wave feminist publications have seen widespread commercial success. (Bitch by the way was one of the first feminist womens magazine to publish articles by transwomen.) While part of the mainstream media is pushing for these artificial concepts of beauty, I would not say they are stronger then ever, in fact feminism is far from dead or weakened as some suggest. It has had a resurgence in recent years, if anything the reality is the opposite of what you suggest. Most people see these concepts of beauty pushed by the mainstream media for the absurdity that they are.
I am a product of feminist thought. There is no question about that. Being female is not about being physically beautiful, I think that is a concept often forgotten by transsexuals who buy into those concepts. Being beautiful if it is a part of being female, is not the way the mainstream media portrays it. Being truly beautiful does not come from a surgery, it is something that shines through in ones personality.
Like I said, I am critical of concepts of beauty and the effect on trans people for very good reason. There are perfectly passing TS women, especially young TS women who go under the knife and get the "works" seeking some artificial concept of feminine beauty. This is largely because of a Doctor out there who does in fact prey on TS women, even passing and beautiful TS women's insecurities (Dr. O). The result is extremely invasive cosmetic surgery at an extremely high price to reinforce patriarchal concepts of feminine beauty which are largely artificial. I see it as preying on trans people, when true beauty does not come from a knife.
(Just to let people know third wave feminists are largely supportive of trans people, in fact ->-bleeped-<- and transfeminism are consider part of third wave feminsim. Second wave feminists are the ones who are largely transphobic. Most trans people who do not know much about feminism have a hard time differentiating.)
(I will tell you right now, there is a difference between what Brassard recommended for you and what Dr. O would have recommended. Brassard only does what is necessary to help TS women become more passable and Dr. O ALWAYS recommends the works. Brassard basically tweaked the natural features of your face to look naturally feminine, Dr. O would have recommended the works. You are a good example of what most TS women SHOULD do if they need cosmetic surgery to pass.)
I am not discounting passing, passing if you are not in Chicago, SF, New York, or Montreal, is a matter of survival. Many non-passing TS move to these cities and other large cities because safety is important. Plus even in these cities life is easier for TS who do pass.
Quote from: Amy T. on May 26, 2007, 02:30:56 AM
(Just to let people know third wave feminists are largely supportive of trans people, in fact ->-bleeped-<- and transfeminism are consider part of third wave feminism. Second wave feminists are the ones who are largely transphobic. Most trans people who do not know much about feminism have a hard time differentiating.)
The lack of knowledge in the areas of feminism could be the reason why some people fear it. At the heart of feminism it isn't angry, degrading, and controlling. It a closely held ideal that women are their own people who do not need to fall prey to the beauty standards of the mainstream to be happy. The objectification and degradation of the female gender is what we stand up against. Having elective medical procedures performed to fit into the mainstream ideal of femininity strikes a nerve with some of us. It is like telling the Pope their is no god.
Not every naturally born woman is a feminist either. They too go through the same procedures for the same shallow reasons. IMO, elective cosmetic surgeries should only be allowed to be performed on person who have been in some sort of disfiguring accident. If little Sally housewife doesn't like her nose, getting a better appreciation for who she is and some self-esteem will make that go away. the fact that women fall for this crap does not mean we as a community need to follow suit. If we, as people who used to be seen as men, can live happy productive lives as women without all of the surgical enhancements, that will send a very powerful message to everyone in society.
I have also had conversation with my female friends and their opinions of all of elective procedures transwomen go through. They see it as a fake representation of what a woman is. If it is men people are trying to attract maybe people should change their personality instead of their breast size.
Its easy for those women to say this.
But, I'd bet that if they had a bongo brow bossing
the kind no 5 foot woman has, let alone a 6 foot one with a
quarterback frame.
they'd be first in line to fix it if they could.
Remember the "live a day in their shoes" bit Renae.
Its good that your self confident and all about how you look.
Maybe you got lucky, maybe you're comfortable with how you look
while others would find faults galore, who knows?
But I don't think you should assign motivations to others so much;
you don't know where they are or what they've been trough.
I often find that feminists and proto-feminists do a kind of pop psych analysis of women at large, trying to guess why this "universal women" acts in the way she acts, giving her motivations that she may or may not have.
Its hard to guess the motivation of someone when you live with them, imagine how much in error we can be if we try to reduce the experience of all women to a few pamphlets or books.
I think that our experiences are so diverse that this reductionism can't work. It can't work for TS and it certainly cannot work for the GG superset we are part of.
http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat4.asp?id=6909
And?
You do realize that this "campaign" is done by a company that sells beauty products by the bushells. That these "normal" woman obviously have a BMI less than the average north american woman. Yes, compared the waif on the runways they look like "regular joes ;-)", but that aint so. And, lets be serious here, all those woman have 1) small chins 2) no serious bossing 3) small jawlines 4) small to medium size nose that are nice looking 5) have full lips 6) don't have too much wrinkles or age spots for someone their age group 7) have dense packed hair, etc, etc, etc.
When they start putting women like my mother on billboards I'll start to think they are very serious about this.
I do applaud the fact that at least these women are realistic beauty goals for many women unlike the models (which by the way have more male traits than those women) which can only realisticly reached by less than 1% of the female population.
words so easily fall on deaf ears. Let us drop this for now and revisit in 10 years and see where our respective views lay at that point.
Renae, I don't quite like the insinuation.
Your point of view is no more universal than mine.
That just grates as a rhetoric device.
Quote from: Amy T. on May 26, 2007, 02:30:56 AM
I am a product of feminist thought.
Great, but maybe it would be better that you become a product of your own thought.
Amy, why are you putting off having SRS?
Quote from: Renae Lupini on May 26, 2007, 08:32:13 AM
Quote from: Amy T. on May 26, 2007, 02:30:56 AM
(Just to let people know third wave feminists are largely supportive of trans people, in fact ->-bleeped-<- and transfeminism are consider part of third wave feminism. Second wave feminists are the ones who are largely transphobic. Most trans people who do not know much about feminism have a hard time differentiating.)
It a closely held ideal that women are their own people who do not need to fall prey to the beauty standards of the mainstream to be happy. The objectification and degradation of the female gender is what we stand up against. Having elective medical procedures performed to fit into the mainstream ideal of femininity strikes a nerve with some of us.
Then why do you wear makeup?
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 26, 2007, 02:12:56 PM
Then why do you wear makeup?
I have often questioned my motivations for this. It was born from the need to hide my facial hair. I have come to like this girly girl part of my being and really don't have any other reason beside I jsut just like to.
I don't know where you got where I was putting it off SRS. I am not. Plus there are money issues (saving) and the standards of care.
Generally speaking I have a timeline and I need to save money. I have planned out my life with the idea of transitioning, why screw it up well laid out plans with rash decision making.
SRS is about two years away in my plans (money issues, RLE, etc). There are several reasons why. It is not that I am putting it off, it is more I have a schedule and I am keeping to it. For the most part I am just starting my transition. I think I am coming from a healthy perspective from the very start.
With regards to SRS, I have to use a doctor licensed in the US or I cannot change my birth certificate. Taking the requirements of the real ID act, I have to use a US licensed doctor, so it will cost a bit more and take me longer to save.
By the way, I am a product of my own thought, but my own thoughts on issues seem to match up pretty well with feminism, progressive activism, etc. But with that being said an individual is drawn to certain philosophies because they do often agree with much of the philosophy. Generally speaking those drawn to progressive philosophies such as feminism, are more perceptive to the flaws and injustices of society, and more often want to be active in speaking out and fixing these problems. I am without question a product of third wave feminist thought, but the reason why I am a product of feminist thought is because it matched my perception of the world, I found much of my thinking matched feminism. It was not that I was not thinking on my own. Also whether you believe it or not we are product of our culture and environments with regards to the opinions we form. These opinions are based on our own perceptions, but also a complex dialog we have with those around us. Many of my friends are feminists, progressives, etc. Unlike many trans people I am not socially isolated, and I am a product of a continuing dialog with those I do know around me, and I have several friends. I am a product of feminism, just like I am a product of environmentalism, just like I am a product of the social justice movement, just like am the product of any intellectual discourse I take part in. Being transgirl is just a small part of who I am, I define myself in many ways. Being a feminist is part of that definition, largely because I found third wave feminism more true than false (second wave feminism though I found to be a load of crap filled with quite a bit of transphobia and transmisogyny). I am a product of feminism, but I am a product of feminism because I am a product of my own perspective, and the discourse I have with those around me.
But the truth is the social circles I regular go beyond the surgery and beauty obsessed section of the trans community, which I am not a part of anyway. My philosophy on life is a result of being social, having interactions with people. I am a product of these interactions, and many of these interactions are from third wave feminists that are my friends. Women (and some men) who have a complex understanding and critique of the world we live in. Ones perspective on life is not only shaped by their own perception, but by those around them. When one only knows their own perspective or when a community or person becomes isolated, it takes on opinions and behaviors that can be destructive, either to themselves and sometimes to other people, and sometimes these communities or people become easy prey for those who want to exploit them as well. I think the best thing a trans person can have is not surgeries, but a friendly and honest outside perspective from somebody who is not trans and not trying to gain financially from their insecurities. While the surgeries can fix some things, honest friendships can help us in much deeper ways.
Beauty is an odd concept, because it is a concept that is a direct result of ones culture or subculture. For some physical beauty is a woman with large hips and a big butt, for the eurocentric mainstream media waifish women are considered beautiful. For some subcultural communities and feminists, beauty is not necessarily physical, but rather comes from ones personality. I think this is a much healthier perspective in general.
Amy, can you do me a favor, since FFS is not an option for you anyway, since obviously, you are still hoping that someday you will be able to afford SRS, can you get off the anti-FFS bandwagon as you have zero credibility since if you wanted it you couldn't have it.
As far as your third-wave feminist philosophy, you remind me a lot of the dittoheads who regurgitate right-wing drool straight off the Republican Party's talking points of the day. But you are young, you can always change.
I don't choose to live in a trans ghetto, I just want to live as an ordinary woman and if surgery is needed to achieve that goal, I do it. I am the type of woman who once she wants something, she figures out a way to achieve it.
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 27, 2007, 10:52:53 AM
Amy, can you do me a favor, since FFS is not an option for you anyway, since obviously, you are still hoping that someday you will be able to afford SRS, can you get off the anti-FFS bandwagon as you have zero credibility since if you wanted it you couldn't have it.
As far as your third-wave feminist philosophy, you remind me a lot of the dittoheads who regurgitate right-wing drool straight off the Republican Party's talking points of the day. But you are young, you can always change.
I don't choose to live in a trans ghetto, I just want to live as an ordinary woman and if surgery is needed to achieve that goal, I do it. I am the type of woman who once she wants something, she figures out a way to achieve it.
Generally speaking it is going to be very hard to keep me quiet. I probably will keep speaking out on the issue until the trans community takes a more balanced viewpoint of FFS. Until then get used to me speaking out on the issue.
Also like I said, I don't need FFS in the first place. It goes beyond just not being an option, flat out its not needed. Even if money were not an issue, I would still not get it. I have no issue with those getting it who need it, but most don't. If not needing it is having zero credibility, I have a huge issue with that. I am not a late transitioner by any means, and honestly my criticism if you read carefully is not regarding the proceedure when used on late transitioners as a way to pass and fit in.
And don't you ever accuse me of the right wing republicans. I think for myself, plain and simple. I am not repeating talking points by any means. I am forming my own opinions on these issues and stating them outright.
I have a measured criticism of the proceedure, it is not over the top by any means. It is not meant as a personal insult to you or any other older TS who get the proceedure because they have no other means to pass. My issue is with younger TS who pass with ease who feel they need the proceedure. When I hear 18-19 year olds talk about FFS when they facial structure is not even set in place, that is what I have issue with. That or when passing TS (mostly younger) get the works. My criticisms are well justified.
I am not in the trans ghetto by an means. Passing for me is not an issue. If it were I would be considering some form of FFS. But I am not going to keep quiet on the issue. I don't keep quiet on any issue, especially if I see major issues with that subject.
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 27, 2007, 10:52:53 AM
Amy, can you do me a favor, since FFS is not an option for you anyway, since obviously, you are still hoping that someday you will be able to afford SRS, can you get off the anti-FFS bandwagon as you have zero credibility since if you wanted it you couldn't have it.
As far as your third-wave feminist philosophy, you remind me a lot of the dittoheads who regurgitate right-wing drool straight off the Republican Party's talking points of the day. But you are young, you can always change.
I don't choose to live in a trans ghetto, I just want to live as an ordinary woman and if surgery is needed to achieve that goal, I do it. I am the type of woman who once she wants something, she figures out a way to achieve it.
OUCH!
If your purpose was to be mean you succeded quite well. This is such an intensely personal choice. Nobody has has criticized you or called you names for the opinions you have and the path you have chosen. I doubt they will start now. Why not just disagree and leave the name calling to those who have neither the decency nor the intelligence to communicate in a respectable manner.
Hoping for better,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
And I'd like to remind some of you of the site rules (highlighted in red) while discussing the beautiful aspects of FFS.
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tink :icon_chick:
I told you so..... :eusa_wall:
Quote from: Katia on May 10, 2007, 11:59:56 AM
do you think you're beautiful?
what makes you beautiful?
what steps have you taken to make yourself 'beautiful'?
My bf are often told "your gf is very pretty and beautiful...", and sometimes I'm stopped on the street by someone, who just simply wants to tell me "you are so beautiful..." :icon_redface: ;)
What makes myself beautiful? -- Being clean and neat with some light make-up... and healthy food, regular sports and good sleeping are the steps that I take to make myself beautiful... no need any FFS.
For me I pass, I know this because people say things to me they wouldn't if they knew I had transitioned. Also, people with whom I have disclosed, always show their surprise and disbelief. I've even had to actually convince people by showing documentation. Therefore since I pass, I really have no reason for FFS. Besides guys tell me every so often that I'm beautiful, plus I have a girlfriend who tells me ALL the time.
Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 02:20:27 PM
I am baffled as to why the transwomen in other places are so perfectly passable while the ones I see in the trans mecca of San Francisco are not.
Because you are only noticing the ones who don't pass. ;) If they pass, you won't notice them.
Me beautiful?
I wish... but no, I'm not. :'(