Hello guys and dolls,
For those who identify as gay (ftm attracted to men) and lesbian (mtf attracted to women), was orientation ever a factor in your decision to transition?
Did you ever feel a reluctance to transition or even to admit to yourself you were indeed TS because you possessed the so-called 'correct' parts for the gender you were attracted to?
Did you ask yourself if you should just remain a woman/man because you like men/women anyway?
Wouldn't it just make life easier?
What is it like to go from being seen as a straight man to being seen as a lesbian, and vice versa?
I'm bisexual and the idea of being a man who lies with other men makes me uncomfortable. No, I am not homophobic in anyway. I know it's a double standard because I didn't have any objections to being a woman with another woman, but it's one of the issues I'm dealing with coming to terms with my decision to transition. I guess because I plan to keep my genitalia intact, it wouldn't technically be a homosexual act, right?
In my opinion if you feel male and so does your partner it's homosexual. But the important question is how you feel about the relationship not how others do.
is sexual orientation supposed to play a role in transition? ???
there's no correlation between sex and gender. i'm exclusively attracted to women, yet i don't think i have the "correct" parts since i'm female. my transsexualism has NOTHING to do with my sexual orientation. they are like oil and water; they don't mix.
Quote from: neroI guess because I plan to keep my genitalia intact, it wouldn't technically be a homosexual act, right?
i'm afraid it would because your gender identity is male, yes? if your gender identity is male and you have sex with other men, technically you are a homosexual though what you practice in the privacy of your bedroom may not be regarded as a homosexual act. capiche?
It's a tough question and probably a tough life. I mean how many different social stigmas can you stack against yourself? :laugh:
I want to be with women, but, well, tg, complete anxiety at male gender role in sexual activites, etc etc. For the first time in my life, I find myself interested in lesbian porn, which never did anything for me (even as a horny young boy trying to compensate, hah.) When I originally came to realize my TG I was stuck in the mindset that to be feminine one needed to be with a man, but obviously that's just the pendulum swinging. I mean I have strong desires for what women want physically from a man, but beyond fantasies I have no attraction to them.
I never wanted to be a gay man, it was a real difficult thing to deal with in my teens when I didn't know about TG and still had those fantasies. Reading peoples' experiences here has made me realize that there's so much more to worry about with a homosexual relationship and it's heartbreaking. The people who are too ashamed from personal fears or social/family to be able to commit to a relationship, despite wanting to. The lack of public affection. What's been a surprising realization for me was the doors it would close - women who would be interested in me as a person as a man wouldn't be interested if i were to transition... that's been the hardest.
"Gay" is such a screwed up divider in our society. Is there any reason for your double standard other than the fact that it's a lot less accepted for guys to be bi/gay than women? (Despite the fact that, I believe, a ->-bleeped-<-load of men are but it's a pissing contest between them to front who's the straightest. look at the church.)
I mean, [damn]. My sexuality is such a screwed up ball of confusion (that's what the world is today, hey hey) that I really don't like applying labels to it because it can go in so many different ways. I'm comfortable with the fact that I'm probably the farthest thing from normal straight, but outside of places where I'm presenting my TG self there's no way in hell i'll identify as anything but. Hell, almost every single man who hit on me when I frequented an adult site was listed as straight. A lot of them talked about panties and gay flings as well. It became a running amusement for me because I knew it wasn't them seeing my inner self and thus having a heterosexual attraction, it was them seeing my lingerie and fronting an accepted sexuality.
Outside of simply BAD situations like working for bigots, or running into some in an alley, the biggest problem is self doubt. If you're confident in what you are and what you want, then with caution only for the danger the world around you offers, dive in.
If you've never been with a man as a man, you may find out the experience is something wholly different than what you expected anyway. That's why I fully expect myself, at some point, to have a mm relationship (or at least physical.)
And as for sexual orientation and my transition (or potential of, since i haven't officially started)... I'm not sure exactly. In my current body i just feel awkward, unable to be what a woman wants and I don't want to be with a man like this. The desire to be a woman isn't spurred by this, of course, i just want to feel comfortable in my own skin.
Another thing.
If you identify as male, he identifies as male, and he identifies YOU as male, then yes, it's gay.
edit: vv Well I started this as a second post but the board is neat vv
I spoke to a very sweet FTM man who had just discovered susan's, very much closeted. he sounded pretty frustrated and alone and confused (if you read this, you know who you are - register already and contact me, would love to chat again some time.) It was a real trip for me, mentally, though, because I have a double standard as well. It's so difficult for me to put the shoe on the opposite foot and see a biological woman who wants to be a man. We pretty much went back and forth about "you know X? God I hate that" "I love that! I hate y" "Ugh!"
It made me think about being with a pre-op FTM and how I would have real great difficulty seeing him as a man instead of a woman, mostly because I have a stronger desire to be with a woman. And that would be both really hypocritical and really quite horrible if I were to involve myself with one and look at him as a woman because it would be very disrespectful and dishonest. And what would that be? Bio man who identifies as a woman creating a female appearance being with a biological woman who identifies as a man creating a male appearance, interested in the MTF as a heterosexual relationship, with the MTF seeing the FTM as still a female for a homosexual relationship... just try to label that anything besides a complete cluster.
Which leads me to something else I read here a while back, about one MTF's experience with being hit on by gay men even very far into her transition where she was beyond any surface doubts a woman. They still identified her as a man, a gay man for doing what she did, and had attraction to the plumbing that was still below.
This is why I say if *he* identifies you as being a man, rather than seeing you as still a woman because you have a vagina, and it somehow comforts some sort of self doubt he has about his own bi/homosexuality.
Thanks Nikki, Katia, and Autumn for your replies.
Quote from: Autumn on May 18, 2007, 02:56:22 AM
"Gay" is such a screwed up divider in our society. Is there any reason for your double standard other than the fact that it's a lot less accepted for guys to be bi/gay than women?
Well, I'm sure that the stigma plays a part in it. I could brag about the women I had to my guy friends and we'd also joke about the men I had and it was all good. Another reason is just that it's something I'd never imagined I would ever have to deal with. It took me a long time to come to terms with being attracted to females.
So, when I first realized I was TS, I thought, "Wait a second - I'm a man and I sleep with men." And that thought blew me out of the water.
What i want to know is why are there so many lesbian TS women..
I would love to know more TS who really truely love and desire men because I do. I love men and i would rather be a gay man than a transsexual woman because the former is more acceptable and less painful, but i don't think i have a choice in that matter. I have always wanted to be the female even when i thought I was gay, don't ask me how i can think i am a gay male and a woman at the same time, it made sense to me in the past.
Yeah, exactly Nero. And I hope you don't think I was faulting you for it. It's complex and it sucks. That's funny though "wait a minute, i'm a man and i sleep with men!? that means *head explodes*" strikes me as something that a lot of guys have experienced :laugh:.
And there are several women here who really love and desire men. I desire being with a man, but sure don't love them, so there's a recipe for disaster. And if I did fall for one I'd have the great discomfort of being in a male body, and yeah.... I think a combination of biology (years of testosterone) and culture (growing up being told to/trying to/wanting women) has an impact. For me, all my close friendships and relationships have been with women, the only men I've been really close to as friends say the most awful things about women, and I was raised pretty traumatically to not like men by my mother, so I have all sorts of reasons. Ultimately piecing out what you really want is more important than trying to figure out how you got there.
Anywho, it'd be nice to see more FTM input on this. You guys seem to be such a minority compared to us.
Quote from: Autumn on May 18, 2007, 01:41:11 PM
I think a combination of biology (years of testosterone) and culture (growing up being told to/trying to/wanting women) has an impact.
I don't think those things have an impact on whether if one likes guys or not. I have always liked guys despite the fact that i had testosterone and i was supposed to like women as a boy. meh.
It might be hard for me to fall in love with a typical straight guys because i have been bullied by them for years, but thats why i like bisexual guys =D They are different but I don't mind gentle straight guys as well, but yeah, men are not easy to love because alot of them only want sex =p
and i realise i am being completely off topic, so sorry, i will shut up now.
Orientation played/s a big role, because I live in stereotyped society, where most of the queers are in deep closet. I keep questioning myself what's my orientation, because I find men caring and comforting, like if only they could make me feel like a woman. But when it comes to real people I don't find them attractive. Some are really handsome, but that's it, there are many beautiful things in world and men aren't exception.
When I realised that being attracted to females and feeling like one would make me lesbian, I got into big confusion, whether I like the girl, because I want to look like her, or because it is something more. After months of thinking back and forth I made a conclusion that butch women are for me and I certainly don't want to look like them.
Being 19 it is hard to fit among GGs if you don't like men, because dating is one of most discussed subjects and usually they don't know any lesbians to relate me with.
I do not think that my sexual orientation had anything to do with be being TS.
I have known all my living memory I was female, way back before I even understood what the act of sex was.
As I grew up, I realised that I like women, but also knew that inside I was female, that never changed.
So for me anyway, there is no colleration between being TS and liking women.
Although my partner and I are both M2F TS, as far as we are concerned we are lesbians.
Sally.
My partner, who is 100% hetero, told me that she had questioned herself when she found herself attracted to me, and she didn't know my surgery status, so she wasn't sure quite what she was getting herself into. I was concerned that when the boxers came off, she'd have trouble seeing me as male, and she told me later she wondered about that too.
But, she says (and I believe) that that hasn't been a problem at all. She sees me as male both in bed and out.
For me, sexual orientation comes into play in that I couldn't sleep with someone who saw me as female, be it a lesbian or a heterosexual man. And you can tell the difference about how someone else is perceiving you.
Dennis
QuoteNero, as you know, I am not a lesbian, but based on reading that I've done and experiences from people that I know, I have to agree with Katia. Sexual orientation shouldn't play a role in transition since sex and gender are not related in any way.
I am using your quote because you speak for a lot of people here on this board. I have always found that attitude or POV to be so very interesting, and contrary to someone else we both knew. In reading the DSM, I have always been struck that GD is spelled out with two specific causes, either together or seperate. Most people seem to fit into the category of fitting a gender role. Whereas a smaller group of people fall into the other category of hating their genitalia.
I've never understood how SRS, now called GRS, can do anything to mitigate the symptoms of GD if the prime motivator for transition is to change gender roles. If sex is different from gender, than why does changing sexual anatomy change anything regarding gender role?
I see the opposite POV. How can sexual orientation not play a role in your transition process if you feel that you have the wrong genitalia? I would think that would be a prime motivator?
Further, people seeking to fix their sexual anatomy should not have to go through a transition.
They are seeking a physical correction, not to change a societally determined gender role.
As per the usual, I get to play devil's advocate. But then, I knew the devil herself. >:D
My own viewpoint is that I want to be with someone who sees, treats, and loves me as an equal. Not some object, not some crazy sex dream or twist on their own ideals of who they like. If I can find someone who loves me for me, then that's my orientation. Just so happens I tend to find more of these individuals in women then in men, but if I find a man who does this then he will get a fair shot as well. So i guess orientation isn't a huge factor for me.
Quote from: Thundra on May 25, 2007, 11:11:53 PM
I see the opposite POV. How can sexual orientation not play a role in your transition process if you feel that you have the wrong genitalia? I would think that would be a prime motivator?
Well, in some sense, yes.
I don't really care a fig about gender roles: I'm quite happy to be just barely on the masculine side of the social spectrum. I've also only tried cross-dressing a couple of times, with intervals of several years, to check that it still doesn't interest me. The issues I have are with my body.
If I could keep up the delusions about being male, life would be much easier for both myself and my wife, and that is one of the prime motivators for
not transitioning. Just keeping the old genitalia and appearances doesn't necessarily help, though: around the time I stopped denying what was going on she commented how it was weird to have a lesbian experience with someone who looks like a man (thus proving the old saying about how it's not the size that matters but how you use it :D ). Still, keeping the things and making the occasional attempt to use them is one of the compromises I'm willing to make. We'll see if this is feasible in the long term.
So, anyway, orientation does not have anything to do with identity, but it can have some influence on whether / when to transition.
Nfr