Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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I got to wonder about something. ::)

recently theres been a bit of debatation about a trans media online.
its an blog/artical (not sure actually) and the fuss has been because on the picture, there is a transwoman who clearly dont pass. with chest hair, dark bear shaddows, alot of make up and so.
Many folks have said the text is okay but the picture just seams as a "bad image for transgender people*" (the article where about trans*folks in general not just transexuals)
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Now this made me wonder.

as some people may know (and some won't) I been in the media myself as a trans person. I haven't been that much in the media as other people I know and im pretty fine with that cause im not too found of getting the "posterboy- lets look up to this trans person" kind of attention.
during the time I where in the media a couple of other transfolks where also shown. someone I knew got alot of attention while i'm generally unknown compared. as I back then spoke to a friend of mine about the media she said it where good the media had put the attention on him cause he where more masculine, and in general a more "normal" and typical guy to precenting the ftm population.

this kinda makes me a bit annoyed.
I know im not "the typical male" as he, I dress more femenine, it took me longer to pass than for him, and I dont really do much of what typical guys at my age do, I have my own interst and some of them are rahter femenine like baking or just a bit wierd like dressing up as all kind of stuff..

but dose this make me a bad model for transpeople??
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I just wondering cause this is not really abnormal. if you look in the media who is to show transgender people alot of them who are being seen as "good media" really go after those typical men/woman people who fit the binary very well focusing on how girly/boyish they are.. "oh she liked dolls as a kid and she want to have a boyfriend and wear make up so its so clear she is a girl trapped in a boys body."

the media for transfolks who is non-binary, a bit queer, not as well passing, and so on, seams for me to get less respect, and more hate for not being "good exemples of men/women" and bad posterboys for the trans comunety.

but to keep those out of the media or putting them lower than the other box, arnt we as dicriminating for or own group? only accepting that there is 1 type of transgender folks and not that it the umbrella term as it is, and Do it really help in acceptence?
if people are only used to see typical guys/girls who fit the genderrole 100% and pass without mistake wouldnt that just make it harder to gain acceptence compared to if your just starting pre T and maybe not the most femenine/maculine person on earth?
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I am wondering about those questions, what do you think?

Is it better if the media for transgender is showing people who seams very clear succsesfull male/woman without doubt, to give a good impression of transpeople.

or do you feel the media should be more fluent to show diffrent kind fo transpeople so everyone is invold and that this fluentness will make trans seams more normal.

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Being deathly honest I do understand why people prefern to have the most typical pictures.
many of us want good role models which for alot of us means people who pass well and are succesfull, and we want people to see us like that mixed up with the fact that the cis world generally can be very black and white to understand us and it has to be put out simple, But I also belive that we need diffrent types to gain the best accept, so we arnt building more prejugdes that all transfolks looks the same.

I think that it's good for there to be non-binary people in the media- it shows the public that not all transgender people are trans the same way. It could help people to understand that there are feminine transmen and masculine transwomen. As much as it'd be nice for it to be as simple as show the world people who pass and give ourselves good exposure, it'd be a lie.

Re: the discriminating from our own group- I've noticed that in some communities, the trans population can be extremely discriminating and judgmental considering they probably struggled with being judged themselves. I can't remember where it was, but there was one group of transguys I ran into that were extremely homophobic when it came to other transguys and it startled me that guys who had dealt with judgement themselves decided to go and judge others too, just because they're different than the 'typical' transguy.

People will be people and there's always gonna be someone who doesn't like it :/ Someone always disagrees.

That's a really interesting question.  I apologise for how long this is, I was just thinking aloud and got a bit carried away.  It's a bit generalised, and I don't think that all cis people are transphobic monsters at all, so sorry if it comes across that way.  And obviously I can't speak for all trans people here, it's just what I think would be best for us as a whole.

I think you've got to consider that what would be best for cis people to see and what would be better for trans people to see are two different things.  I think initially it would better for cis people in general to see trans people who fit into the stereotypical gender roles, pass well, and are just like other regular guys; people who grew up playing in the mud and refusing to wear dresses.  Being able to see people who fitted into the traditional gender roles might help some people be less wary of us, and break the stereotype of us as people who just have a fetish/want to spy on people in changing rooms/are trying to invade women's spaces or gain male privilege.  Cis people often don't understand us, and that's why some of them can be against us, because what we don't understand can be scary.  When I tried to come out to my mother last year she said that she didn't understand why I felt like I needed to live my life as a man because she doesn't do things that are stereotypically female, but she's still comfortable as a woman.  If she understood that some people who act like tomboys/femme guys are actually male/female then she might have been more accepting and not just ignored the whole thing.

Of course there's the problem of teaching them that it's okay not to hate pink or bake, or do anything else that is feminine.  I think society is slowly coming around to the idea that it's okay to break these stereotypes of what each gender is doing as the genders are becoming more equal; women are going out to work so men have to do the housework, marriages no longer make the woman the property of the man, and there are plenty of people living on their own, both male and female.  I think in time things will sort themselves out so that it's okay to do, and like whatever you want, and not be considered too masculine or too feminine.  It helps that there are people out there who have the balls to do what they want and not care about anyone else's views (example: http://www.hisblackdress.com/ (http://www.hisblackdress.com/) ) so things are going to move on, and it'll be better for both cis and trans people who are interested in things that aren't "what they're supposed to like".

However, if they were only to show people who fitted into the gender roles it would be harmful for trans people who were questioning their gender identity and their families.  If they only saw people who were fitting into the gender roles would they have the confidence to come out to themselves and their families about being trans?  I'm a pretty masculine guy, so to some extent I don't know what it would feel like, but I'm pretty bad at video games, and sometimes if I'm feeling bad anyway, I feel like I'm less of a man than all the cis people around me because I'm not 10th Prestige on COD and I don't have 3.1 kill-death ratio (mine's something like 0.34 heh...)  Video games aren't a major part of my life though – and I would much rather play Skyrim to Black Ops any day – so I can't imagine what it would be like to be a trans guy who liked things like baking and sewing, and to only see other trans men who hated those things.

In a similar way it's going to be harder for the parents and friends of trans people if the person they're close to doesn't fit into those gender roles, but all the people they see in the media do.  If I was a parent who didn't know anything about trans issues and my child came to me, wearing feminine clothes that they had chosen, and had only done feminine things their whole life and told me that they were trans, and a boy, I wouldn't be very open to the idea that they were actually male.  If I had seen trans people in the TV and they'd been a bit feminine, and had said that they liked female things for whatever reason, then I would be more likely to say, "Oh okay, you're a feminine guy, that's allowed."  So from the point of view of both the parents and trans people it would be better to show a types of trans people on the TV, even if it makes it a little bit harder for them to be accepted by everyone in society.

There are some people who don't pass straight away, even when they're on T, and it would be good to show them that there are trans men who pass, but they're going to think that they're broken or something – I also don't have personal experience there.  Showing them people who also struggle to pass sometimes will help put out the message that it's okay to be a man who doesn't look 100% like a man, but that might also reinforce the stereotype of us just pretending and not being taken seriously.  Cis people might find that it's easier to see us for who we really are if they're used to seeing trans people on the TV who don't look exactly how they're "supposed" to, and less importance will get put on our physical features, and more on who we say we are.  Genderqueer need some sort of visible role model as well I think, otherwise that's going to be a huge bunch of people who aren't represented at all, and are just going to sitting at home wondering what's wrong with them, and thinking that they're the only people who feel the way that they do.

Overall, I think that we need both trans people who fit into the traditional gender roles to help cis people feel more comfortable with the idea of there being men and women who don't have the parts that they expect them to have out there, and show that actually, we're just like them.  In other words, ease them in gently.  It's like boiling a live frog; put it in a pot of boiling water and it jumps out, put in in cold water and heat it up and it doesn't realise, if we can slowly open people's minds then being transgender will no longer be a taboo, it'll be on the same par as some people being green eyed.  And we need trans people who don't fit the gender roles to be role models for people who are questioning their genders, their families, and society in general who are still hung up on what men and women should and shouldn't do.

Aaah, great question and interesting thoughts so far.

Personally, I think it is crucial to for both the public and the trans community to see all sorts of gender expressions. I feel that when we only consider a stereotypical 'successful' MTF or FTM, where the transwoman is feminine and the transman is masculine, we are furthering the tradition of squashing gender down into two narrow little boxes. For example, I'm a pretty effeminate guy, and presenting as such makes me comfortable and is my version of 'success.' I shouldn't be pressured to be more masculine from other transmen or from society.

I agree with Alex that it is definitely more confusing for the general population to wrap their heads around, but I like to think that seeing is believing and exposure to all sorts of gender presentations is necessary to open up those narrow male/female stereotypes.

Quote from: ford on January 27, 2013, 04:35:47 PM
I agree with Alex that it is definitely more confusing for the general population to wrap their heads around, but I like to think that seeing is believing and exposure to all sorts of gender presentations is necessary to open up those narrow male/female stereotypes.

I definitely agree. Non-binary presentations and identities are just as valid as any other. The only way I can think of getting them consistently respected is to gradually give them more visibility.

I don't think it's a bad thing per say but I will say that when people who appear to not follow binary gender roles (like the transwoman you described with a beard and chest hair) are misgendered and not accepted by society they should expect to catch crap on a regular basis. Society hasn't even evolved to the point where they will accept the ones of us that they deem "normal looking" so anything outside of that is going to get even more scrutiny. No, it's not fair but realistically that is just how the World works.

Now trans people who judge each other are ridiculous. I think it goes both ways though. Really masculine transmen sometimes get told they "try to hard" or that they shouldn't be trying to fit into the cis gendered world. Then the feminine transmen get told they should have "remained women" or that they want to look like anime characters and not real men. It's all crap-o-la and the mud slinging needs to stop on both ends.

I think it all boils down to the individual. Some people thrive on attention and want to stand out. The media tends to love those types in general. They make for good tv. Then there are those who want to never be identified as trans and do everything they can to blend in.

I have one rule I follow before I give someone scrutiny. If what they're doing doesn't effect me now or in the future then I couldn't care less what they do. I can only think of one thing that bothers me and that is transmen who show their double incision scars on national television. That could effect me and I don't want that "transman identifier" out there. 

But Simon, it only affects you if you're showing your double incision scars somewhere. Are you reserving that right for yourself?  Devils advocate question.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 27, 2013, 08:36:12 PM
But Simon, it only affects you if you're showing your double incision scars somewhere. Are you reserving that right for yourself?  Devils advocate question.

Devlyn, At the beach, pool, etc is one thing. Showing them on national television is another. Most guys have top surgery to feel comfortable and confident. When the scars become a trans identifier the confidence for many (who don't want to be viewed as trans) will go right out the window. It could also be a safety issue and make transmen a target for transphobic people in society.

Is that different than me having big hands or an Adams's apple?

I think the scars are probably not understood enough to be common place. I would guess that most people will think its surgery but not know what kind of surgery. If there's a safety issue one is back to rash guards., I'm afraid.

--Jay

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 27, 2013, 08:46:30 PM
Is that different than me having big hands or an Adams's apple?

My gf has big hands (she is also tall). I have a cis female aunt with an adam's apple. I don't know one cis male with double incision chest scars.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 27, 2013, 08:48:07 PM
I think the scars are probably not understood enough to be common place. I would guess that most people will think its surgery but not know what kind of surgery. If there's a safety issue one is back to rash guards., I'm afraid.

--Jay

Probably not yet but as transmen become more visible to the public it will become better known.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 27, 2013, 08:46:30 PM
Is that different than me having big hands or an Adams's apple?

There are plenty of cis women out there with big hands and/or Adam's apples.  Hardly any cis men with scars similar to double incision.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 12:25:25 AM
There are plenty of cis women out there with big hands and/or Adam's apples.  Hardly any cis men with scars similar to double incision.

This will change.

There are growing numbers of cis men who are having top surgery to alleviate their gynaecomastia. The scars are identical to the ones sported by trans men because it's pretty much the same operation.

In fact, I watched a documentary on British TV a couple of weeks ago in which a man had (double incision) top surgery and I thought 'OMG, are they showing a trans man having top surgery?' - but it turned out he was cis and had lost a lot of weight, so he needed help to get rid of his moobs.

Hmmm.... are cis men going to start getting flak for having had top surgery, because people will presume they're trans?

To answer the OP's question - no, I don't think they're bad role models at all; I just think that a binary society doesn't know how to cope with people they can't easily classify.

It all comes down to human tribalism, I'm afraid. The natural size of a tribe is about 30 individuals; if the tribe gets much larger than this, young adults will leave to join other tribes or start up new ones.

This means that we've evolved to cope with about 30 'friends' at a time. We can't really cope with many more (no matter what your Facebook friends list might suggest). Of course, most of us don't live in tribal communities any more; we live in multi-racial, multi-cultural cities of hundreds of thousands (or millions) of people. Plus we have TV, movies & the Internet bringing many more people into our lives. This is way too many individuals for what we've evolved to cope with.

But cope we must, and we do this by taking shortcuts. We stereotype people and group them according to their characteristics. But living in a multi-cultural society of millions means that our 30 groups are very quickly filled up so we find it difficult to accommodate people who don't easily fit in to those groups. I'm not trying to condone it; I'm merely trying to explain it from an anthropological perspective.

I think the solution is to present ourselves as a group, called 'trans', which would include men, women, passers, non-passers, pre-op, post-op, non-op etc. - but presented as a unified whole emphasising what we have in common, rather than our differences. Perhaps the Civil Rights movement can help with that.

Look out for my peer-reviewed paper on this subject, coming soon to a dustbin near you. ;)

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 28, 2013, 08:49:01 AM
This will change.

There are growing numbers of cis men who are having top surgery to alleviate their gynaecomastia. The scars are identical to the ones sported by trans men because it's pretty much the same operation.

In fact, I watched a documentary on British TV a couple of weeks ago in which a man had (double incision) top surgery and I thought 'OMG, are they showing a trans man having top surgery?' - but it turned out he was cis and had lost a lot of weight, so he needed help to get rid of his moobs.

Hmmm.... are cis men going to start getting flak for having had top surgery, because people will presume they're trans?

I think I have seen the show. it called obese something something? about fat people trying to lose weight..
one of the guys where pretty unhappy cause even when he had lost alot of fat he still had large man boobs.. so he got the removed..

Quote from: Natkat on January 28, 2013, 10:35:33 AM
I think I have seen the show. it called obese something something? about fat people trying to lose weight..
one of the guys where pretty unhappy cause even when he had lost alot of fat he still had large man boobs.. so he got the removed..

There are loads of shows like that on British TV. ;)

You're right about them being unhappy. I'll be honest with you: initially I felt a bit annoyed and frustrated that cis men are cluttering up the waiting list to get moob surgery for self-inflicted reasons, making us trans guys wait even longer for the surgery we need through no fault of our own. I felt we 'deserved' the surgery more than they did, and that they're making us wait longer than we should.

But watching that show made me think: this cis guy's dysphoria was as real as mine. Granted, he wasn't dysphoric for the same reasons as me... but he didn't feel comfortable in his own body because of those moobs and because of the way society treated him. He'd been binding his chest since losing the weight because he couldn't stand seeing them. I recognised all of that as being just as real a dysphoria as my own. He'd put in the hard work by losing all the weight, so really, he deserved the surgery to resolve his dysphoria, just as much as I deserve to resolve mine.

It made me rethink my attitude towards cis guys using up these resources. It made me more sympathetic.

Quote from: Simon on January 27, 2013, 09:09:06 PM
My gf has big hands (she is also tall). I have a cis female aunt with an adam's apple. I don't know one cis male with double incision chest scars.

Probably not yet but as transmen become more visible to the public it will become better known.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 12:25:25 AM
There are plenty of cis women out there with big hands and/or Adam's apples.  Hardly any cis men with scars similar to double incision.

True, but it seems most cis guys who have had a chest operation are extremely reluctant to show the scar. Most don't want to remove their shirts in public. Anyway, I was mainly pointing out the inequity of not wanting others to show their scars while doing so ones self. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2013, 11:28:02 AM
True, but it seems most cis guys who have had a chest operation are extremely reluctant to show the scar. Most don't want to remove their shirts in public. Anyway, I was mainly pointing out the inequity of not wanting others to show their scars while doing so ones self. Hugs, Devlyn

It's not an issue of not wanting others to show their scars.  It's an issue of not wanting others to publicize (especially through the media) their scars and WHY they have them.   

It sounds like trying to tell someone else how to live their life, though, and that's wrong.

It sounds like an opinion, and those are never wrong.  HTH.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 12:27:38 PM
It's not an issue of not wanting others to show their scars.  It's an issue of not wanting others to publicize (especially through the media) their scars and WHY they have them.

That's not opinion, it's expecting others to do the things you want them to. HTH

Are non-passing trans people bad for the trans "community"?  No, most are non-passing at one point in their life.

Are non-binary people bad for the trans "community"?  IMO, yes.

Then explain why. Why not non-binaries? What makes them different, truly, than any other trans-persons? What makes them such a bad influence as a representive for a community whose not specifically about FTM or MTF but gender?

I know the way the world works: there will always be someone, somewhere hating on someone for something. But why should we? We have been given the opportunity to perceive human-kind in a different light, an opportunity that could (and, IMO, should) raise empathy for our fellow beings. In this point, for all transgender alike. Non-binary or not. Passing or not. To take this a step further, empathy for humankind. No matter the fault, the differences faced, or the belief in which varies so colorfully.

It leaves me curious as to why, no matter how much we personally want to be accepted, we cannot accept others who are living along the familiar road we are traveling, have traveled?

Quote from: Johe on January 28, 2013, 02:15:53 PM
It leaves me curious as to why, no matter how much we personally want to be accepted, we cannot accept others who are living along the familiar road we are traveling, have traveled?

No one is obligated to accept anyone else just because they share a medical condition.

Yes, no one is obligated, but why wouldn't you? Wouldn't it cause more harm than good by further excluding others? Wouldn't it take longer to find acceptance as a whole? Or is it the lack of a community (lack of attention, want, need, etc.), instead divided by individual acceptance? Should it be about individual acceptance, the only matter of importance be of thyself?

As a note, you still avoided the question(s).

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 02:58:57 PM
No one is obligated to accept anyone else just because they share a medical condition.

No, thats true. But it sure does suck to know theres people out there that make it more difficult for people to be who they are while expecting to be accepted because of their medical condition.

Quote from: Johe on January 28, 2013, 02:15:53 PM
I know the way the world works: there will always be someone, somewhere hating on someone for something. But why should we? We have been given the opportunity to perceive human-kind in a different light, an opportunity that could (and, IMO, should) raise empathy for our fellow beings. In this point, for all transgender alike. Non-binary or not. Passing or not. To take this a step further, empathy for humankind. No matter the fault, the differences faced, or the belief in which varies so colorfully.

It leaves me curious as to why, no matter how much we personally want to be accepted, we cannot accept others who are living along the familiar road we are traveling, have traveled?

This is really well-said Johe.

I think about this a lot. It is idealistic, sure, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for acceptance of the infinite variations that gender expression can take. And even though our personal paths vary, I feel we should work to be understanding of other's expressions. I believe it makes the trans* community stronger, and I think that's key to helping society understand where we're coming from and acknowledge our legitimacy.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 01:57:13 PM
Are non-passing trans people bad for the trans "community"?  No, most are non-passing at one point in their life.

Are non-binary people bad for the trans "community"?  IMO, yes.

I would love to hear the reasoning behind your opinions too, Wheat Thins.

My view of what transsexualism is and means is different from the majority on this site.  Let's just leave it at that.

I'm not trying to bare down on you, Wheat, but I don't understand it. I can't see the other-side as clearly, so this is where you, or anyone, can give me some insight.

Ford, Darrin. I agree – it bites, plaintively and figuratively. The lack of acceptance in a community that should be accepting, with the common thread of living in a world that doesn't necessarily understand or want to believe in our existence can be hard to see and, not to mention, experience.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
My view of what transsexualism is and means is different from the majority on this site.  Let's just leave it at that.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you're here. This is what this site stands for:

Every one is welcome at Susan's Place provided you follow a few basic rules: This site is an open support area, and is not generally sexually oriented. The purpose of this site is to provide peer support, and to provide a forum for the discussion of issues related to gender and may include Transsexualism, Transvestism, Crossdressing, or other related topics. This web site exists to offer constructive input and support.

In my opinion, the "played with dolls and therefore knew she was a girl" or "hated wearing dresses and therefore knew he was a boy" does more harm than good. Granted, I bristle at the idea of my gender identity being thought to be associated with something so illogical as gender roles whereas others still believe in them for reasons I cannot and do not want to fathom. My cis brother has worn dresses and played with dolls. That doesn't make him a girl. I grew up with plenty of girls who hated dresses and loved to play in the dirt. That doesn't make them boys. It is the same for us and it should be the same for us.
As for non-binary gender identities, why not? There are intersex bodies. Why not intergender brains?

I think childhood can play a role in why we transition, but we have to look beyond that. There's more than just I hated dolls and loved the mud or whatever. I too grew up with girls like that and know women who are very butch and do not identify as male.

I think people look to their childhood to validate their feelings now or to draw connections to make it more "legit" or whatever. "Well, I've always felt this way" kind-of thing. "Look! Here's the proof!" I don't think we need to do that. Sure, when we go see a therapist they want to know how we feel and for how long and why, but I don't feel like we need to keep explaining ourselves and I feel like trans* people do that a lot.

Pretty unrelated, but....

I don't have massive dysphoria. Yes, I have some and it does exist, but it's not overwhelming. I don't think anyone has any right to tell me I'm right or wrong for transitioning. I'm almost a year on T and don't regret it. Not one bit. These threads pop up again and again and it gets old. People, who are not doctors, giving guidelines on who and who should not transition is ridiculous. To me, this sort of goes against what Susan's is about....

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
My view of what transsexualism is and means is different from the majority on this site.  Let's just leave it at that.

here's the issue, your views are fine for you to hold up to the point where they impinge upon other people's right to self-determination with their own bodies.

so even by saying something as simple as "yes nb people are bad for the trans community" (no need for scare quotes on community cmon) you are telling people they aren't welcome

which ain't ok

Quote from: transtrender on January 28, 2013, 04:16:28 PM
here's the issue, your views are fine for you to hold up to the point where they impinge upon other people's right to self-determination with their own bodies.

so even by saying something as simple as "yes nb people are bad for the trans community" (no need for scare quotes on community cmon) you are telling people they aren't welcome

which ain't ok

Oh don't get me wrong, what people do with their own bodies is their choice and I certainly have no hold over others.  But that doesn't mean I'm obligated to agree with people's decisions.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 04:26:13 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, what people do with their own bodies is their choice and I certainly have no hold over others.  But that doesn't mean I'm obligated to agree with people's decisions.

sure, i'm just not sure why you feel obligated to comment on your opinion about their or my decisions

also see above expressing your opinion is a way of telling people they aren't welcome which still isn't ok

Well let remember that this is a debatation overal general,
and I have giving 2 opinions from the start with the mind that people could answer honest what they belive.
im glad that "wheat thins are delicious" feel to share his opinion who is not as most of the posts here.
we cant really have the debating open, honest and fair without it will stick to someone.
we can cencur the chat so only one opinion is allowed but this is not what I want cause im curious what people really think not what there supose to think, and thats whats so great of freedom of speach.

however, wheat thins are delicious" it could be a bit interesting to get more into details why you got the opinion you have.

Quote from: transtrender on January 28, 2013, 04:31:32 PM
sure, i'm just not sure why you feel obligated to comment on your opinion about their or my decisions

also see above expressing your opinion is a way of telling people they aren't welcome which still isn't ok

This is what happens when you post on a public forum.  Not everyone is going to be in agreement with each other.

Not everyone has to agree with everyone, but if you're going to say something that you know may offend some of the people that see it its fairly safe to assume that you're going to be asked to explain. Non-binary people aren't the easiest to get your head around, but they are still people, and they just want to be happy with their bodies. Which is exactly what we want to be, only we have an end goal that the world understands and some clear cut labels to stick on us.

The non binaries are my favourite group here. They don't live by the shackles that others do. They are not ashamed to be themselves. Scurrying from one box assigned by society to another box assigned by society is pathetic. Seeing yourself as better for doing so is still more pathetic. That's my opinion. Hugs, Devlyn

Sometimes I believe so, I don't believe I am transexual.  I am a woman in the state of transition, though sometimes I use those words for simplicities sake.

Its not denial, but the gender binary that I associate with.

Unfortunately the blanket term transgender associates us all, but I believe the world will just be more confused at the designations without such a blanket word~ Regardless some of us go stealth after transition which eliminates any of these concerns.

This is directed at non-binary, or any other group associated with ->-bleeped-<-.

Someone who doesn't pass can't be faulted.... they are the gender they portray themselves as and a blood sister to my specific struggle.

Don't get me wrong, my beef is not with any group.  My beef is with the word itself as a term to describe everything people don't conisder a "normal" gender role.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2013, 05:27:57 PM
The non binaries are my favourite group here. They don't live by the shackles that others do. They are not ashamed to be themselves. Scurrying from one box assigned by society to another box assigned by society is pathetic. Seeing yourself as better for doing so is still more pathetic. That's my opinion. Hugs, Devlyn

Being non-binary is just as much not a choice as being binary.

--Jay

Quote from: transtrender on January 28, 2013, 04:31:32 PM
sure, i'm just not sure why you feel obligated to comment on your opinion about their or my decisions

Transtrender, when I first seen your nick on here I cringed a little. Do you even know what a "transtrender" is? It is a derogatory term for someone who thinks being trans is a fashion statement. It is someone who uses hormones for vanity reasons (for example: I want a lower voice but nothing else). Then typically they get irreversible effects of hormones they don't want and blame everyone else around them for pushing them towards hormones. THAT is a transtrender and if that is your decision I don't support it.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
My view of what transsexualism is and means is different from the majority on this site.  Let's just leave it at that.

Wheat Thins has a very cut and dry view on what HE believes transsexuals are. It is a binary clinging, transition, be stealth, then fall in line view. Being trans is a medical condition and not an identity. That sort of view. There is nothing wrong with that view and I myself tend to lean towards that type of thinking in someway.

I accept everyone for who they are but I will say I don't understand everything. I try to but there are things I can't wrap my brain around. It doesn't make be a bigot or anything else. No matter what topic people discuss there are going to be differing opinions and discussing transsexualism is no different. That is ok.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2013, 05:27:57 PM
The non binaries are my favourite group here. They don't live by the shackles that others do. They are not ashamed to be themselves. Scurrying from one box assigned by society to another box assigned by society is pathetic.

I don't think I scurried from one place to anywhere else. Being trans means you have already blown the lid off of society's definition of normality. No one can be a transsexual and have shackles in place. We are who we are and that goes both ways.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2013, 05:27:57 PM
The non binaries are my favourite group here. They don't live by the shackles that others do. They are not ashamed to be themselves. Scurrying from one box assigned by society to another box assigned by society is pathetic. Seeing yourself as better for doing so is still more pathetic. That's my opinion. Hugs, Devlyn

I hate to interrupt an already icy conversation but isn't that walking all over the ftms and mtfs here?

Simon, it wasn't my intention to say Wheat's opinion was invalid, but something you and I both said, there are some things I don't understand, can't understand. I ask questions to get answers. Avoiding the questions leaves an undesired after-taste with no reason why. Why such the cookie cutter view; why include certain FTMs but not the rest of the spectrum of gender paths? No matter the path in life there will never be a one-size-fits-all, I get that, but if by accepting everyone, wouldn't that be better than excluding some of them?

And, not to be flippant but curious, if a transman or woman were/are/is going to be living in stealth, would they really want to play a part in the trans-community at all, which could threaten their ability to be stealth? Or is it more secure to be a member of the trans-community in secret, when the rest of the world is securely blind on the internet?

Quote from: Frank on January 28, 2013, 05:56:00 PM
I hate to interrupt an already icy conversation but isn't that walking all over the ftms and mtfs here?

Well imo, non-binaries have a different road and are different in a few ways, but the choice is not exactly our's to make. "Hey I wish I'd be an androgyne. It's so much cooler and they are so loosey goosey". Nope doesn't work that way. Maybe I'd just rather be cis, you know it's easier.

I am non-binary in my brain but my body is wrong. I can't help that I feel that way.
But the thing is they can't help how they feel either.



--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on January 28, 2013, 06:16:04 PM
Well imo, non-binaries have a different road and are different in a few ways, but the choice is not exactly our's to make. "Hey I wish I'd be an androgyne. It's so much cooler and they are so loosey goosey". Nope doesn't work that way. Maybe I'd just rather be cis, you know it's easier.

I am non-binary in my brain but my body is wrong. I can't help that I feel that way.
But the thing is they can't help how they feel either.



--Jay

I'm not saying how anyone should feel, it was just the "pathetic for skipping from one gender box to another" that caught my eye since most of us, that I'm aware of, seem to be doing just that.

Quote from: Frank on January 28, 2013, 05:56:00 PM
I hate to interrupt an already icy conversation but isn't that walking all over the ftms and mtfs here?

No, Frank, it isn't. It's respect for people who walk the road in between. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Frank on January 28, 2013, 06:22:31 PM
I'm not saying how anyone should feel, it was just the "pathetic for skipping from one gender box to another" that caught my eye since most of us, that I'm aware of, seem to be doing just that.

I was agreeing with you. That you can't chose one way or another how you identify. Saying someone is pathetically skipping from one gender box to another implies that there is something wrong with "switching sides".

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on January 28, 2013, 06:29:15 PM
I was agreeing with you. That you can't chose one way or another how you identify. Saying someone is pathetically skipping from one gender box to another implies that there is something wrong with "switching sides".

--Jay

What people say on here tends to get taken out of context. I don't think that is what Devlyn was saying. She was saying people should be themselves and not feel like they have to confine themselves by switching to one box created by binary cis society to another box created by binary cis society. Not that the box binary identified trans folks are striving to reach is necessarily a bad thing but there are alternate ways of living if one so chooses.

Quote from: Johe on January 28, 2013, 06:15:55 PM
Why such the cookie cutter view; why include certain FTMs but not the rest of the spectrum of gender path?

I don't hold to the somewhat common belief that gender is a spectrum.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 06:36:19 PM
I don't hold to the somewhat common belief that gender is a spectrum.

You're a transsexual. Like it or not, you're part of that spectrum you don't believe exists.

Quote from: Simon on January 28, 2013, 06:35:14 PM
What people say on here tends to get taken out of context. I don't think that is what Devlyn was saying. She was saying people should be themselves and not feel like they have to confine themselves by switching to one box created by binary cis society to another box created by binary cis society. Not that the box binary identified trans folks are striving to reach is necessarily a bad thing but there are alternate ways of living if one so chooses.

Thanks,  Simon, I was trying to type something simlar. I consider all people equal, and give equal respect to them.

Okay, thank you for the clarification.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 06:36:19 PM
I don't hold to the somewhat common belief that gender is a spectrum.

Whether or not you believe gender is or isn't a spectrum this probably isn't a good place to be airing those opinions.  You're basically saying that a chunk of people on here are crazy, and that's just not cool.  I don't personally believe in any higher powers, but I don't go to a Church and tell everyone that their thinking and way of life is entirely wrong.  I live my life as an atheist and they live their lives as Christians/Muslims/Hindus/Sikhs/whatever, and as long as they don't hurt me or infringe on my life, I won't hurt or infringe on their lives.

Gender may or may not be a spectrum.  There may or may not be a higher power somewhere out there.  Who knows?
But the people who are non-binary deserve respect as human beings and not just dismissed.

Quote from: Simon on January 28, 2013, 05:53:29 PM
Transtrender, when I first seen your nick on here I cringed a little. Do you even know what a "transtrender" is? It is a derogatory term for someone who thinks being trans is a fashion statement. It is someone who uses hormones for vanity reasons (for example: I want a lower voice but nothing else). Then typically they get irreversible effects of hormones they don't want and blame everyone else around them for pushing them towards hormones. THAT is a transtrender and if that is your decision I don't support it.

i know what a transtrender is.  it's a term and a name i'm using quite consciously.

i reject the idea that certain people's needs/wants/desires for hormones are more or less legitimate, and that people are adjudicated as thinking being trans is a "fashion statement".  (who even thinks that?)  i've seen people, especially guys and non-binary afab people, performing femininity in a similar way that i perform masculinity derided as pretending to be trans because it's trendy, and i reject that it's a legitimate critique or a legitimate label.

which is sort of my cause to claim it aggressively.  if you're gonna call the femme guys transtrenders, realize what the implications are across the board.

i'd like to see citations for the apparent legions of supposed pseudotrans trendsetters who are regretting hormonal changes in droves and blaming the trans community who aren't also radfem apologists.  because i've yet to see any of this supposed "typical" development.

Quote from: transtrender on January 28, 2013, 08:11:02 PM
which is sort of my cause to claim it aggressively.  if you're gonna call the femme guys transtrenders, realize what the implications are across the board.

It has nothing to do with being a feminine transman. As you're claiming it you're trying to redefine it.

Quote from: Simon on January 28, 2013, 08:36:37 PM
It has nothing to do with being a feminine transman. As you're claiming it you're trying to redefine it.

it does have to do with them because, like it or not, they're one of the foremost groups having the word thrust upon them.

also, of course i'm trying to redefine it!  as it is it's used as a slur to delegitimize trans people.
if i can't see it expunged (because people keep using it) then i'm going to defang it.  people take hormones and/or transition for their own reasons, and deigning to think that anyone is the grand arbiter of who should and shouldn't be doing either or both is kind of not alright.

i mean, it's a simple enough thing to approach.  what if i'm not binary and resistant to "fit in" or to "pass" (whatever that even means, given that it also has weird racialized connotations in its history)?
what if i didn't need to transition and did anyway?  what if i did it because i wanted to?

what if my desires were puerile and had to do with something as silly as perceived sexuality, or desired sexuality, or the desire to engage in sex in a specific way with specific people as opposed to some deep and abiding need for self-actualization or holistic existence as The True Me?  when does any sort of desire go from being illegitimate to legitimate, or vice versa?

as long as we're going to delve into the realm of the hypothetical, what if, at least at the time that i transitioned, i did so because i thought it would be cooler to be a lesbian than to be a straight guy?  it's an exaggeration and a specifically biased reading of my decisions, but sure, there was a kernel of me thinking that at the time.  what consitutes a Legitimate Instance Of Being Trans and what constitutes going for being a trendsetter to the maxxx?  was i gumming up the works by not being Trans Enough and misleading gatekeepers as to some of my motivations?

does any of that even matter?  i'm happy and i don't regret my decisions.  and if you're going to set happiness after transition as one of the signposts of being Trans Enough, are we supposed to gang up on the small community of those who experience regret for making things worse for trans people?

what is a transtrender, anyway?  explained in a way that isn't of necessity slanted against certain people with certain aims?
just because people may have unrealistic aims or goals doesn't mean they're not of the True Trans Gospel.  it just means they're being unrealistic.  which is, quite frankly, something that can happen to a lot of people, but for some reason i feel like femme trans guys get smeared with this one a lot, and i'm not really sure why beyond the obvious overtones of social groups (not just queer & trans, but definitely especially those groups) prioritizing masculinity and deriding and devaluing femininity.

which is basically just a New And Improved Patriarchy Module infiltrating trans communities.  which basically explains the phenomenology of transtrenders.

I think it's fascinating that there's such a great diversity in the forum. There is a line, however, between expressing ones' opinions in a benign manner and openly attacking a group of people. Not to accuse anyone of doing so or point fingers, but I find that it's important to keep that in mind, since we are already a minority and shouldn't let differences in thinking and opinions and beliefs further compartmentalize us.

So getting back to the original topic, I think that non-binary people, or even trans* people who fit the stereotypical cookie cutter mold of their target gender can have a positive and a negative effect on the rest of the world. Really, what matters is how the media portrays them. It's one thing to see normal, polite people who have assumed a different place on the spectrum than expected of them, but another to turn these people into a novelty, which is unfortunately what many talk shows do. As much as it hurts to know this, the world isn't a completely accepting place. Lots of factors, especially upbringing (and sometimes religious or cultural extremism), can lead to instant hatred of "the freaks on the television".

For this reason, I agree with the apprehensive view towards, say, an FTM going shirtless and showing off their surgery scars on national television. I really, really hope to get top surgery someday to remove the chest monsters, and I would hate it if I ended up being persecuted because those who have nothing better to do than start a trans* "witch hunt" were now equipped with a pretty clear sign that some work was done (I also hope I won't have very noticeable scarring, but am prepared for that and would take massive, permanent scars if it meant a flat chest). 

I think another major point is a divide in how trans* people view themselves. Some are ashamed of the entire thing, or have no desire to discuss it, some are indifferent, some are extremely proud of it. A spectrum within a spectrum, if you will. And trans* pride will slowly lead to more awareness, which is both a good and a bad thing.

Just my $0.02, though.

Quote from: transtrender on January 28, 2013, 09:01:00 PM
does any of that even matter?  i'm happy and i don't regret my decisions.  and if you're going to set happiness after transition as one of the signposts of being Trans Enough, are we supposed to gang up on the small community of those who experience regret for making things worse for trans people?

I don't believe in the "Trans Enough" movement and I'm not going into that here as I have in previous threads. A transtrender is someone who treats being a transsexual as a phase. Are these people probably under the umbrella term of transgender? It's a probable notion.

A lot of what someone believes about being a transsexual is going to vary from other individuals. I don't think it's an identity. I look at it like a medical condition. Of course with that reasoning any transtrending is going to look like an affront.

Quote from: Liminal Stranger on January 28, 2013, 09:39:07 PM
I think another major point is a divide in how trans* people view themselves. Some are ashamed of the entire thing, or have no desire to discuss it, some are indifferent, some are extremely proud of it.

Exactly. This site is the only contact I have with other trans people. I am stealth. Am I ashamed of being trans? No, because if someone were to approach me in a respectful manner and ask I would admit it. I have in the past. I just don't think it is anyone's business really.

How we live our lives direct effects how we view being trans.

Quote from: Simon on January 28, 2013, 10:44:55 PM
I don't believe in the "Trans Enough" movement and I'm not going into that here as I have in previous threads. A transtrender is someone who treats being a transsexual as a phase. Are these people probably under the umbrella term of transgender? It's a probable notion.

A lot of what someone believes about being a transsexual is going to vary from other individuals. I don't think it's an identity. I look at it like a medical condition. Of course with that reasoning any transtrending is going to look like an affront.

ok, but......

again, who decides what constitutes "treating it like a phase"?  who decides whether somebody gets to be in the Exclusive Inner Umbrella Zone?  these are all subjective markers, and if you're going to argue that being a transtrender is something that a person can actually be, that means you sorta have to decide who has the gavel when it comes to adjudicating the boundary lines between Okay You're Cool and C'mon Stop Pretending.  which is pretty much deciding who's trans enough.

i'm pretty sure the only other people who treat being trans as a phase are like, people who think you can't be trans in the first place.  which i'm pretty sure is not what you're talking about.

anyway seriously i'm not big with my own identity politics just because i have a lot of complicated relationships with a lot of different terms and ideas (including being trans for that matter) but it's important that people who need that a) reaffirmation and b) ability to utilize and reclaim a political arena in such a way that they can achieve not only legal rights and equality but also social consideration in the same way.

for more regarding this (which isn't to say that they're equivalent, but it might give you a better idea of where i'm driving) you might want to look at some writers and theorists talking about disability and identity, and how claiming a cultural identity is a powerful tool for advocacy for change, for struggle and resistance against a structure of power that marginalizes those who are considered nonstandard or abnormal in some way, frequently through the force of violence, and as a way to critically appraise and interpret both the past and present in a social context.  amydentata on tumblr is a is a really good resource for a lot of things, and she's also written a lot about being trans and disabled, and she makes many strong cases for the social advocacy that comes from claiming something as an identity.  (i can also grab some more links, but i'll come back to this later for posterity's sake.

which doesn't mean that everyone has to do that, and everyone is always free to interpret their own life and take whatever path necessary to make things easier to work with or deal with (as long as you're aware of the greater social sphere of things, like.  you can not identify as white but if you're perceived as white by other people you have to acknowledge the privilege that gives you, etc).  but what it does mean is that you can't treat others as if they're going to view their lives through the same lens.  from what i'm reading it sounds like you think transtrenders are basically pulling the equivalent of munchausen syndrome so they can get attention for their "medical condition".

but, i mean.  a ton of trans people don't view it that way.  i don't view it that way, certainly, and if you suggested that i have something wrong with me and that i have a medical condition, or a psychiatric condition, or a psychological condition, then i'd feel insulted, and i'd also feel like you're diminishing what people who have actual medical and psychiatric and psychological disorders have to deal with by trying to draw a comparison there.

Quote
Exactly. This site is the only contact I have with other trans people. I am stealth. Am I ashamed of being trans? No, because if someone were to approach me in a respectful manner and ask I would admit it. I have in the past. I just don't think it is anyone's business really.

How we live our lives direct effects how we view being trans.

that's definitely true!  how we live our lives absolutely affects us.  but still, dude, i'm not sure what you're driving at here.  i don't really think pride or lack thereof or views on stealth really have anything to do with the subject at hand, which is about the idea that there's some imaginary group of people who are playing with gender dangerously like they're some sort of untrained flaming baton jugglers or something who are hurting the rest of the REAL flaming baton jugglers trying to make an honest living.

which, to bring the whole point home, is about how i feel about people claiming that non-binary people or people with non-western genders are giving trans people a bad name.  it's just feeding into the patriarchy's constant attempts to ratify certain people's genders or gender expressions or gendered behaviors as quasilegitimate as long as they're complicit in beating down another marginalized group further.  i mean it's been done before in the trans community.  it still happens!  a lot of us have experience with therapists or psychologists or psychiatrists who buy into the whole ray blanchard account of the psychopathology of transsexuality categorizing trans women into the categories of mentally disordered male homosexual and sexually disordered fetishistic straight man.  and what did happen for a long time is that straight feminine trans women were allowed to ascend a few rungs on the ladder of the patriarchy as long as they took part in the delegitimizing of the "autogynephile".  i mean to look at a classical figure in trans lesbian history, beth elliott gets thrown out of the queer women's organization she was a pioneer in, the daughters of bilitis.  this is during the heart of the second wave when there was greater perceived political capital in throwing "gender traitors" like trans people under the bus to achieve the goal of women's liberation.  but there's been progress made since then, and in no small part because of activists like elliott who have campaigned, who have understood the value in critical identity politics!

what i guess i'm getting at is that i think we're at a crossroads with regards to the perceived legitimacy of non-binary and non-western genders.  as people who have been part of a group persecuted for daring to breach the inviolable system of the western hierarchy of oppositional sexism, the trans community, even those who are binary, heteronormative, and don't really interact with queer and trans communities to any significant degree, are a natural ally of the new vanguard of non-binary communities.

sorry, this sounded sort of like a manifesto!  i didn't really mean it to be...i mean i guess it is, but it's mostly because i have strong feelings on the matter.  uh, yeah.  that's all i really have.  and why i think suggesting that transtrenders exist is bad, and why treating non-binary people like enemies of further trans social justice is bad!  yeah.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 06:36:19 PM
I don't hold to the somewhat common belief that gender is a spectrum.

Understanding another has to start somewhere.

Then, may I ask, gender -- to you -- is just male or female? What is your concept of gender? And what of sex? Are the two truly interchangeable? I...just can't grasp the idea of being pidgeon-holed into one box for another with such specific definitions in what is/not a wo/man and what is/not a transgender.

Male/female is sex.
Man/woman is gender.

I feel like I'm going in circles. So, I'll say this, I see where you stand. I acknowledge it, but I will never truly understand it nor do I agree. Thank you for sharing your opinion, and I will continue to wonder at the world and its variations deep into my years.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 29, 2013, 12:53:54 AM
Male/female is sex.
Man/woman is gender.

so for like people who are neither of those do you just like deny their existence or
i mean even without getting into sexual dimorphism and the ample room to talk about the fact that intermediate states exist phsyiologically which if there's some sort of analogous fixed and internal conceptualization of gender would precipitate non-binary genders at least a little bit of the time...

manhood and womanhood are pure social constructions.  so to say everyone is one of the two implies there's some sort of cross-cultural universal Two True Genders.
which isn't true, given the fact that other cultures don't subscribe to western views of gender or even sex (i.e., sworn virgins of albania, bakla in the philippines, hijra in india/pakistan/bangaldesh, muxe in zapotec circles, to name just a few).  and to say that they don't exist or that they're wrong is honestly kinda imperialist and inappropriate.

Take my opinions how you'd like to.

there are only so many ways to interpret "i don't hold the belief that gender is a spectrum", and none of them are good.

just sayin'.

Quote from: Simon on January 28, 2013, 05:53:29 PM
It is someone who uses hormones for vanity reasons (for example: I want a lower voice but nothing else). Then typically they get irreversible effects of hormones they don't want and blame everyone else around them for pushing them towards hormones. THAT is a transtrender and if that is your decision I don't support it.

This assumption that these people even exist in this exact way is thrown around in every single one of these threads that touch on this subject in one way or another. Who are these people? If they exist in droves, they should be easy to point out, yet I've never once seen an example of someone actually behaving this way. I sorta pay attention to trans tumblr bloggers and vloggers, but not really all that much - maybe I am just missing it.

So, please enlighten me. Where should I look to find these people that use hormones only as a vanity project and then regret the after effects? Not just non-binary people, but people who make that exact claim. 

I am not being snarky or facetious - I really want to know.  Not just, "look on tumblr or youtube" either - specific links to support this argument, if possible, please.

Also - everyone in this thread should read "Nobody Passes", edited by Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore. It's a collection of essays, and it addresses themes in this thread from a variety of perspectives.

Quote from: spacerace on January 29, 2013, 04:06:58 AM
So, please enlighten me. Where should I look to find these people that use hormones only as a vanity project and then regret the after effects? Not just non-binary people, but people who make that exact claim.

I've personally come across it twice from people I knew back when I was a little active in the trans community. I don't know how many other people have come across and I only base my opinions on what I have seen with my own two eyes.

I fall into a minority with certain beliefs I hold and that is ok. I'm not here to convince anyone.

I know my opinion isn't a popular one. Fine...so be it.

 

I just wanted to trow in my thoughts, I know this is on the FTM board but it does bring a valid point that affects all TG people.  Currently we live in a two gender world where we all are sorted by what sex we are born and then gender stereotypes assigned based on that solely.  For the trans person it's obviously a different story, however for the others in the world taking a look in, it may be easier for them to grasp the concept of a passing macho FTM or a passing femme MTF then someone who doesn't fit either role.  That being said, I think slowly, albeit at a snails pace, that view is changing. Within the trans community we need to be accepting and open to all gender variations, where else are we supposed to ban together, many don't or un able or even willing to pass.  But it still takes courage to face the world as you are.  Keeping that in mind, you must remember then "media" is going to look for extremes to sell stories and grab attention, that's their job, and ours is to represent ourselves respectfully no matter what our "passing" status may be.  Beside what about an androgynous person? When are they considered passing? Or someone who identifies as gender queer? The trans community is probably one of the most diverse out there, but the general population normally can't handle that. Currently we are at the first breakthrough stages of gaining general public acceptance and need to be mindful on how we are perceived.  Do non binaries hurt us.. No, not really, I think a passing TG person who dashes others by imposing standards of passing actually may cause more harm by keeping others back.  In general I think tastefulness and tact are the two most important factors that can impact our community the most.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 29, 2013, 01:54:50 AM
Take my opinions how you'd like to.

I don't know where the concept of "it's my opinion" being the ultimate perfect defense forever and always came from... but it's not. Saying it's "my opinion" that I'm worthless and don't exist, doesn't actually successfully make your statement less rude than it otherwise would be. It doesn't make you not-a-jerk.

"Everyone has a right to an opinion" is possibly the most meaningless statement ever dreamed up. Sure, you have a right to being an unpleasant human being. But I think being an educated, aware, and kind human being is actually better. All opinions are simply not equal. This is where etiquette comes in. Politeness. The capacity to carry on a conversation with someone you potentially disagree with.

And I know there's even a kind of attractive temptation attached to "being-a-jerk." Somehow it's perceived as honesty. Nope. It's actually just rude. It is very easy to say the same things without being horrible. The English language is almost infinitely flexible. So if you are choosing to use words that make other people feel BAD, even after they have indicated that those are not-polite things to say, what kind of human are you actually? A human who LIKES hurting other humans. Charming.

Now I know this is on the FTM board. And I have been told recently that apparently posting here is problematic for x-y-x reasons. But you start saying nasty things about me, and I feel like I don't care so much if it's problematic anymore.

And you know what's funny? I have a rep point from you for telling someone to be POLITE. To express themselves better. So you understand this. You understand why this stuff matters. You are just, what? Enjoying yourself there, buddy? Cause I'm not.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 04:26:13 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, what people do with their own bodies is their choice and I certainly have no hold over others.  But that doesn't mean I'm obligated to agree with people's decisions.

Ok ill settle this one - wheat thins ARE delicious. Stop the hate.

ok but in all seriousness i agree with you wheat. It's fine with me however people want to identify. No probs. But I wish that other transmen  or genderqueer folks or whatever wouldn't show off all the things that identify them as trans. because it causes people to use those same identifiers to call me trans when i do not identify that way. I dont really  care enough about it to get all excited. I dont think i could convince someone i was anything other than a male if i paid them.

I also think that by being so extremely oppositional to 'norms' it does make it harder for folks to be accepted. Its sort of like gay pride parades when you have drag queens with boas and rainbow speedos, and then you have the guys in bussiness suits holding signs say "we would like equal rights". Which group is going to make more progress?

the quickest rout to acceptance is "hey, they aren't so different from me after all. All they want is to be treated like human beings.'

Dont get me wrong, everyone has a right to be who they are, but lets be realistic about who is going to encourage and discourage acceptance. 
It doesnt really matter to me in the end, I try to be there for other guys going through what i have gone through, but I have no desire nor do i feel its important for anyone to know about my medical history. 

I think it comes down to how peope identify too. So it becomes personal and people get offended. I tend to not get offended by other people's opinions or identidy. you want to call yourself a gender queer, anime, furry pansexual body contortinist. Right on! thats neat.  But dont tell others that the sum of your identity represents the parts.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 29, 2013, 06:35:49 AM
I don't know where the concept of "it's my opinion" being the ultimate perfect defense forever and always came from... but it's not. Saying it's "my opinion" that I'm worthless and don't exist, doesn't actually successfully make your statement less rude than it otherwise would be. It doesn't make you not-a-jerk.

"Everyone has a right to an opinion" is possibly the most meaningless statement ever dreamed up. Sure, you have a right to being an unpleasant human being. But I think being an educated, aware, and kind human being is actually better. All opinions are simply not equal. This is where etiquette comes in. Politeness. The capacity to carry on a conversation with someone you potentially disagree with.

And I know there's even a kind of attractive temptation attached to "being-a-jerk." Somehow it's perceived as honesty. Nope. It's actually just rude. It is very easy to say the same things without being horrible. The English language is almost infinitely flexible. So if you are choosing to use words that make other people feel BAD, even after they have indicated that those are not-polite things to say, what kind of human are you actually? A human who LIKES hurting other humans. Charming.

Now I know this is on the FTM board. And I have been told recently that apparently posting here is problematic for x-y-x reasons. But you start saying nasty things about me, and I feel like I don't care so much if it's problematic anymore.

And you know what's funny? I have a rep point from you for telling someone to be POLITE. To express themselves better. So you understand this. You understand why this stuff matters. You are just, what? Enjoying yourself there, buddy? Cause I'm not.

hmmm so someone who wants to identify as not a man and not a woman and wants the world to accept hir as a non gendered being has a right to do so, but this guy doesnt have a right to disagree? Nah. I once saw a kid on the street who had shaved straight down the center of his head. He looked like bozo the clown. I started laughing when i saw him. He said "you dont have a right to laugh at me" but you know what? The exact same principal that allows him to shave the middle of his head, gives me the right to laugh.

.................except shaving your head down the middle isn't an identity.

(also, just because you are free to laugh at him, that you *can* do so, doesn't mean it isn't rude, and that you should.)

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 08:48:51 AM
hmmm so someone who wants to identify as not a man and not a woman and wants the world to accept hir as a non gendered being has a right to do so, but this guy doesnt have a right to disagree? Nah. I once saw a kid on the street who had shaved straight down the center of his. He looked like bozo the clown. I started laughing when i saw him. He said "you dont have a right to laugh at me" but you know what? The exact same principal that allows him to shave the middle of his head, gives me the right to laugh.

It's not the same.  Him shaving his head hurts no one, you laughing could hurt him.  Would you want someone to laugh at you for what you were wearing or your haircut?  I'm assuming not.  In the same way, if a non-binary person wants to live as non-binary then that's their right.  It's not anyone's right to say that non-binary people don't exist, which is basically saying that they think they're a total headcase.  If someone believes that non-binary people don't exist then that's fine, but there's no need to go and say that in places where you know there's going to be hurt and discomfort caused from it.

An opinion is an opinion yes, and everyone's entitled to one, but have some respect for the people around you and don't air them where you're going to be saying that they're crazy because their lifestyle and views don't fit in with your opinion of the world.  Do they hurt you by being non-binary?  Funnily enough that's kinda what we're supposed to be discussing in this thread.  If they don't, then just respect them.  If they do, have a rational discussion and try and work out our problems.  We all just want to be comfortable, we shouldn't have people going through similar struggles causing us discomfort.

Quote from: transtrender on January 29, 2013, 08:58:54 AM
.................except shaving your head down the middle isn't an identity.

(also, just because you are free to laugh at him, that you *can* do so, doesn't mean it isn't rude, and that you should.)

You dont know, it could have been a huge a part of his identity. I agree that it could be interpreted as 'rude' but thats not my point. My point is that we cant go around demanding others to not find use offensive, funny, weird, strange, awesome, magical, worthless or silly. People have reactions to others and those reactions are just as valid as the person's identity. Assuming no one is getting violent!   

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 09:05:08 AM
You dont know, it could have been a huge a part of his identity. I agree that it could be interpreted as 'rude' but thats not my point. My point is that we cant go around demanding others to not find use offensive, funny, weird, strange, awesome, magical, worthless or silly. People have reactions to others and those reactions are just as valid as the person's identity. Assuming no one is getting violent!

Is physical violence the only thing that counts?  I can't remember one time where physical pain has had a long lasting effect on me.

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 09:05:08 AM
You dont know, it could have been a huge a part of his identity. I agree that it could be interpreted as 'rude' but thats not my point. My point is that we cant go around demanding others to not find use offensive, funny, weird, strange, awesome, magical, worthless or silly. People have reactions to others and those reactions are just as valid as the person's identity. Assuming no one is getting violent!   

it means the same thing, yo.  it's what cis people do to trans people.  anti-trans violence is founded in society finding us freakish, finding us offensive, finding us weird and unacceptable to the prevailing concept of gender put in place by society.  by your logic, cis people are well within their rights to mock trans people they see who don't pass, going as far as throwing out any slur in the dictionary they find appropriate, and they have "just as much of a right" to do that as the trans person has to take a step outside the door.

sorry, but that's bs.

Quote from: AlexanderC on January 29, 2013, 09:04:11 AM
It's not the same.  Him shaving his head hurts no one, you laughing could hurt him.  Would you want someone to laugh at you for what you were wearing or your haircut?  I'm assuming not.  In the same way, if a non-binary person wants to live as non-binary then that's their right.  It's not anyone's right to say that non-binary people don't exist, which is basically saying that they think they're a total headcase.  If someone believes that non-binary people don't exist then that's fine, but there's no need to go and say that in places where you know there's going to be hurt and discomfort caused from it.

An opinion is an opinion yes, and everyone's entitled to one, but have some respect for the people around you and don't air them where you're going to be saying that they're crazy because their lifestyle and views don't fit in with your opinion of the world.  Do they hurt you by being non-binary?  Funnily enough that's kinda what we're supposed to be discussing in this thread.  If they don't, then just respect them.  If they do, have a rational discussion and try and work out our problems.  We all just want to be comfortable, we shouldn't have people going through similar struggles causing us discomfort.

ok, so dont share your opinion when it hurts others? Got it. Just for the record, I not only think non binary folks exist, i totally support them being non binary. I am a pretty extreme liberal. Be who you want, be a man or a woman or neither or both. Be what you feel you are on the inside. I dont think anyone is worthless because of their gender identity.

and i totally agree with you that we shouldnt be hurting one another. I just think that everyone has a right to their own reaction. I do not identify as trans, but I am 100 percent here on the board to help anyone who has questions. As a man who has been on testosterone for over 10 years, has had top and bottom surgery, I have no desire to be 'out' but i do want to help others in any way possible. I dont care if that person is trans or male or gender queer or what not. We all have a right to our opinions and I dont think its ok to call names because someone disagrees. 

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 08:48:51 AMThe exact same principal that allows him to shave the middle of his head, gives me the right to laugh.

Oh honey, I wasn't arguing against freedom of choice. I was arguing in favour of choosing to be kind. You can choose to be a jerk all you like. But what do you want me to say? That was an awesome thing you did by trying to humiliate some harmless kid?

I'd say what I think of your behaviour. But I promised Devlyn I'd try to clean up my language.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 29, 2013, 09:20:30 AM
Oh honey, I wasn't arguing against freedom of choice. I was arguing in favour of choosing to be kind. You can choose to be a jerk all you like. But what do you want me to say? That was an awesome thing you did by trying to humiliate some harmless kid?

I'd say what I think of your behaviour. But I promised Devlyn I'd try to clean up my language.

oh. Gotcha. I agree, I think most people try to be kind. The "kid" was older than me because I was a kid when it happened. He was bigger than me so I wouldnt call him harmless and I fail to see how using words like "jerk" is any better than me finding a haircut funny.

I truly feel my words are being misinterpreted here. I am not sure how many times i have to say that i support non binary definitions of gender, but i do. i just also think its ok to not understand or not think that non binary identity applies to ones self. Come on now folks.

I just dont want folks to misunderstand my point.

Quote from: Liminal Stranger on January 28, 2013, 09:39:07 PM
I think another major point is a divide in how trans* people view themselves. Some are ashamed of the entire thing, or have no desire to discuss it, some are indifferent, some are extremely proud of it. A spectrum within a spectrum, if you will. And trans* pride will slowly lead to more awareness, which is both a good and a bad thing.

these categories arn't clear and just based of our own view but also depending on our situations.
Some can be out and proud cause its nessesarry with awareness, and some can "have no desires to discuss it" cause its nessesarry not to do so.
--
last year when I went with a demonstration we where shouting and clear to be outed. being honest I dont want to shout, make demonstrations and come home lying cause my famely dont like me to make political mess, but it was nessesarry to save someone I know, if I had just had a sign on me I wouldnt get a bigger reaction than the homeless on the streets.

on the other hand theres situations where your do want to be out but your not suposed to as it can get you into trouble, in worst caise killed, if you travels you can get in those situations.
--
I tend to be a bit annoyed when someone make a line between people who are more stealth and more out like its a choice, cause its not nessesarry a choice.

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 09:12:46 AM
ok, so dont share your opinion when it hurts others? Got it. Just for the record, I not only think non binary folks exist, i totally support them being non binary. I am a pretty extreme liberal. Be who you want, be a man or a woman or neither or both. Be what you feel you are on the inside. I dont think anyone is worthless because of their gender identity.

and i totally agree with you that we shouldnt be hurting one another. I just think that everyone has a right to their own reaction. I do not identify as trans, but I am 100 percent here on the board to help anyone who has questions. As a man who has been on testosterone for over 10 years, has had top and bottom surgery, I have no desire to be 'out' but i do want to help others in any way possible. I dont care if that person is trans or male or gender queer or what not. We all have a right to our opinions and I dont think its ok to call names because someone disagrees.

The bit about believing that non-binary people don't exist was mostly aimed at wheat thins. Sorry i should of made that clearer.

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 09:26:23 AM
I truly feel my words are being misinterpreted here. I am not sure how many times i have to say that i support non binary definitions of gender, but i do. i just also think its ok to not understand or not think that non binary identity applies to ones self. Come on now folks.

But is that what's being said? I get that people label themselves in different ways, possibly quite different than the world labels them. But is it being said, by saying there is only man or woman, male or female, that there is not a non-binary existence? I'm not trying to say people need to change their beliefs, but isn't it a bit obnoxious to ignore this other part of the world that exists, who struggle in much the same way an MTF or FTM does with their gender identity? It's not necessarily that someone doesn't identify with the non-binary definition, it's that a good part of the tran community is A) being completely ignored or unrecognized or B) being described as not "transgender enough" and snubbed not only by the cis-folks but by their own community. This doesn't happen in every case, but I think what's being argued here now is the recognition that non-binaries need to be understood just as much as any other transgender, that they are every much a part of this battle we all go through, whether it is shared or not.

Having media attention brought to non-binaries was said to not be a good thing, that it harmed the transgender community...but why? Or how? Because according to belief, the spectrum doesn't exist? That's almost like saying a whole race doesn't exist...wasn't that the problem with segregation?

Quote from: Johe on January 29, 2013, 10:23:13 AM
But is that what's being said? I get that people label themselves in different ways, possibly quite different than the world labels them. But is it being said, by saying there is only man or woman, male or female, that there is not a non-binary existence? I'm not trying to say people need to change their beliefs, but isn't it a bit obnoxious to ignore this other part of the world that exists, who struggle in much the same way an MTF or FTM does with their gender identity? It's not necessarily that someone doesn't identify with the non-binary definition, it's that a good part of the tran community is A) being completely ignored or unrecognized or B) being described as not "transgender enough" and snubbed not only by the cis-folks but by their own community. This doesn't happen in every case, but I think what's being argued here now is the recognition that non-binaries need to be understood just as much as any other transgender, that they are every much a part of this battle we all go through, whether it is shared or not.

Having media attention brought to non-binaries was said to not be a good thing, that it harmed the transgender community...but why? Or how? Because according to belief, the spectrum doesn't exist? That's almost like saying a whole race doesn't exist...wasn't that the problem with segregation?

OK I see what you are getting at here. I think there is a huuuuge divide in the tras community about identity. And im guessing that neither wants to be 'mislabeled'. I think the frustration rises from genderqueer folks using the word transsexual (which technically does not apply to them) so when a genderqueer person speaks for the trans community, some folks find it frustrating. Many of us see ourselves as a specific gender and want to be seen that way only. That means that when someone goes to the media with a message of 'I am extremely different from you, but accept me any way' it can be frustrating for a guy whose message is "im pretty much the same as you, so please accept me"

I think your analogy about race is a decent one. There was also the same sort of struggle within the civil rights movement. Who made more progress is arguable malcom X or Dr. king? One saw himself as extremely different and demanded  equal (even superior) treatment while another saw himself as the same and asked for equal rights.

So to answer your question, i think that media attention on gender queer folk CAN make it harder for transsexuals to be accepted by being such an extreme selection of the community. Whether right or wrong, an average joe shmoe is more likely to say "hey, that dude with the beard and a suit is just like me, why am I so prejudice?" than he is o saying "wow, that person does not identify with either gender. I dont know if that person is a man or woman, I am confused but I will accept that person regardless'

I am not speaking to the logic of this, just that extremeism can indeed be a detriment to political and social acceptance.  Does that make sense?

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 29, 2013, 06:35:49 AM
I don't know where the concept of "it's my opinion" being the ultimate perfect defense forever and always came from... but it's not. Saying it's "my opinion" that I'm worthless and don't exist, doesn't actually successfully make your statement less rude than it otherwise would be. It doesn't make you not-a-jerk.

"Everyone has a right to an opinion" is possibly the most meaningless statement ever dreamed up. Sure, you have a right to being an unpleasant human being. But I think being an educated, aware, and kind human being is actually better. All opinions are simply not equal. This is where etiquette comes in. Politeness. The capacity to carry on a conversation with someone you potentially disagree with.

And I know there's even a kind of attractive temptation attached to "being-a-jerk." Somehow it's perceived as honesty. Nope. It's actually just rude. It is very easy to say the same things without being horrible. The English language is almost infinitely flexible. So if you are choosing to use words that make other people feel BAD, even after they have indicated that those are not-polite things to say, what kind of human are you actually? A human who LIKES hurting other humans. Charming.

Now I know this is on the FTM board. And I have been told recently that apparently posting here is problematic for x-y-x reasons. But you start saying nasty things about me, and I feel like I don't care so much if it's problematic anymore.

And you know what's funny? I have a rep point from you for telling someone to be POLITE. To express themselves better. So you understand this. You understand why this stuff matters. You are just, what? Enjoying yourself there, buddy? Cause I'm not.

I came here to say basically this, and you said it better than I ever could have. +1 to you. :) May I show your response to a guy who's been harassing me for being "politically correct" IRL?

when we speak "us and them" as transexuals and non-transexuals I wonder about those who might fit into more than juist 1 categori of the trans umbrella..

personally I dont think I might be transexual alone, I do identify as male but I dont really feel like being nessesarry male or dressing up nessesarry as male al the time, I feel my gender is a varientation of how men are. I am unsure what this make me.. a queer transman or just a transexual-crossdresser? or genderqueer/fluid transexual?.. but im not alone, I know transguys who also are dragqueens or crossdressers besides being transexual, so 1 box might not always be enough to jugde...

Quote from: Penny Gurl on January 29, 2013, 05:54:59 AM
I know this is on the FTM board but it does bring a valid point that affects all TG people.

yeah sure this is not just ment for ftms. I guess its just a bad habbit to post my post in the ftms section unless its dirrectly ment for mtfs..

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 11:22:35 AM
OK I see what you are getting at here. I think there is a huuuuge divide in the tras community about identity. And im guessing that neither wants to be 'mislabeled'. I think the frustration rises from genderqueer folks using the word transsexual (which technically does not apply to them) so when a genderqueer person speaks for the trans community, some folks find it frustrating. Many of us see ourselves as a specific gender and want to be seen that way only. That means that when someone goes to the media with a message of 'I am extremely different from you, but accept me any way' it can be frustrating for a guy whose message is "im pretty much the same as you, so please accept me"

I think your analogy about race is a decent one. There was also the same sort of struggle within the civil rights movement. Who made more progress is arguable malcom X or Dr. king? One saw himself as extremely different and demanded  equal (even superior) treatment while another saw himself as the same and asked for equal rights.

So to answer your question, i think that media attention on gender queer folk CAN make it harder for transsexuals to be accepted by being such an extreme selection of the community. Whether right or wrong, an average joe shmoe is more likely to say "hey, that dude with the beard and a suit is just like me, why am I so prejudice?" than he is o saying "wow, that person does not identify with either gender. I dont know if that person is a man or woman, I am confused but I will accept that person regardless'

I am not speaking to the logic of this, just that extremeism can indeed be a detriment to political and social acceptance.  Does that make sense?

It does make sense, but I don't see the message from non-binaries, or those who may not be transsexual but fit in the transgender spectrum, claiming that message: "I am extremely different from you, but accept me anyway"...What I see, hear, read is this: "I may not fit in your gender roles, but I am still like you. Accept me for me." And isn't that what you're trying to say too, as a transsexual? I think the problem is not whether non-binaries are good or bad for the media or even acceptance as a transsexual but rather the fear that you may be outed. There is nothing wrong with being stealth, but how much of a role can you play in the transgender community and still blend in with the crowd?

As for mis-using the word transsexual, it could and could not be. It depends on your definition of transsexual, for starters. Secondly, not every non-binary is non-op. Some do feel the need to align their bodies with the mind, and they take the same steps like other transsexuals.

But I don't think non-binaries or anyone is claiming to be superior. The struggle is wanting to be seen as equal, as human despite the gender, race, orientation, disability, etc. isn't a bad cause to fight for.

Yes, and no. It may be harder to wrap their head around the word androgyn, gender-queer, non-binary, and you may be right –- it may be easier to find acceptance for someone who is just an FTM or just an MTF, but it doesn't make anyone less valid for wanting acceptance, to wanting to be seen as a person. That's my point. It's not a bad thing for a community (GLBT) whose whole campaign started with the idea of human equal rights.

When we get past all the physical, we are all just...human. I was raised to believe in human equal rights. Were you?

Quote from: Johe on January 29, 2013, 12:08:12 PM
It does make sense, but I don't see the message from non-binaries, or those who may not be transsexual but fit in the transgender spectrum, claiming that message: "I am extremely different from you, but accept me anyway"...What I see, hear, read is this: "I may not fit in your gender roles, but I am still like you. Accept me for me." And isn't that what you're trying to say too, as a transsexual? I think the problem is not whether non-binaries are good or bad for the media or even acceptance as a transsexual but rather the fear that you may be outed. There is nothing wrong with being stealth, but how much of a role can you play in the transgender community and still blend in with the crowd?

As for mis-using the word transsexual, it could and could not be. It depends on your definition of transsexual, for starters. Secondly, not every non-binary is non-op. Some do feel the need to align their bodies with the mind, and they take the same steps like other transsexuals.

But I don't think non-binaries or anyone is claiming to be superior. The struggle is wanting to be seen as equal, as human despite the gender, race, orientation, disability, etc. isn't a bad cause to fight for.

Yes, and no. It may be harder to wrap their head around the word androgyn, gender-queer, non-binary, and you may be right –- it may be easier to find acceptance for someone who is just an FTM or just an MTF, but it doesn't make anyone less valid for wanting acceptance, to wanting to be seen as a person. That's my point. It's not a bad thing for a community (GLBT) whose whole campaign started with the idea of human equal rights.

When we get past all the physical, we are all just...human. I was raised to believe in human equal rights. Were you?

I see where youre coming from, I am stealth and I do not identify as transsexual. And I think this is where the miscommunication comes from. ALOT of guys are not saying "I do not fit into your roles but accept me" they are saying "I DO fit into your roles so whats the problem?" for them and for me, I am most extremely comfortable doing things that are manly, i "fit" the sterotype of what a man is and I dont identify as anything other than a guy. 

i am 100 percent "stealth" and i think I can still be pretty helpful to the "trans" community. I do that through these boards and other support groups online. I have no strong desire to be a part of the "transgender" community. I dont know any other trans folks in real life and I dont seek them out. I am here on the board to offer advice from my years from transitioning. So I suppose my role is limited, and thats not a bad thing to me. I am not transgender and I am not sad about that. 

And to me, I dont even believe in being "outed" so its not about fear but rather about what i feel is my true identiy: Man. End of story. If someone is super curious, I have a medical condition that involves the appearance of genitals. What is there to out? I dont want to know about my buddy's missing testicle and i dont really care to tell him about being born with too much estrogen.

Like i keep saying, i too think that non binary folks should be treated with respect and dignity. the question that is being asked in the post is whether or not gender queer visibility could be detrimental to the trans community.

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 12:58:45 PM
I see where youre coming from, I am stealth and I do not identify as transsexual. And I think this is where the miscommunication comes from. ALOT of guys are not saying "I do not fit into your roles but accept me" they are saying "I DO fit into your roles so whats the problem?" for them and for me, I am most extremely comfortable doing things that are manly, i "fit" the sterotype of what a man is and I dont identify as anything other than a guy. 

i am 100 percent "stealth" and i think I can still be pretty helpful to the "trans" community. I do that through these boards and other support groups online. I have no strong desire to be a part of the "transgender" community. I dont know any other trans folks in real life and I dont seek them out. I am here on the board to offer advice from my years from transitioning. So I suppose my role is limited, and thats not a bad thing to me. I am not transgender and I am not sad about that. 

And to me, I dont even believe in being "outed" so its not about fear but rather about what i feel is my true identiy: Man. End of story. If someone is super curious, I have a medical condition that involves the appearance of genitals. What is there to out? I dont want to know about my buddy's missing testicle and i dont really care to tell him about being born with too much estrogen.

Like i keep saying, i too think that non binary folks should be treated with respect and dignity. the question that is being asked in the post is whether or not gender queer visibility could be detrimental to the trans community.

And this is where I'm confused. Maybe I'm being a little brazen here, but how can you not be a part of the transgender community when you are on a board for those on the transgender spectrum? Isn't that like saying you're in, say, North Dakota but you're really in South Dakota? Or maybe the question should be if you are not transgender, how much right should be afforded to you in the trans community? You're not trans, okay, but then who represents what and how shouldn't be a concern of yours or those who feel the same way.

As for being "outed", I admit it could have been the wrong word to use, but wasn't that the argument (not necessarily by you) of why they didn't want other transmen showing off their scars on television? Because someone may "clock" him for having said medical condition and question him as a man? Isn't that where the fear comes in?

I identify as a man. Stereotypical or not, I am a man. But I was born female, therefore by someone else's standards, I do not fit the assigned gender role. That was the point. Whether you start out male or start out female and transition, you break the norm. In that way, you are not like other men. It's not to say you are less of a man for that, because frankly, that's a BS argument if I ever heard one, but the difference between FTM and non-binary are only by the definitions that we place on each other.

As for that last line in the previous post, I apologize. I do not, however, agree with your last statement.

Quote from: Johe on January 29, 2013, 01:36:30 PM
And this is where I'm confused. Maybe I'm being a little brazen here, but how can you not be a part of the transgender community when you are on a board for those on the transgender spectrum? Isn't that like saying you're in, say, North Dakota but you're really in South Dakota? Or maybe the question should be if you are not transgender, how much right should be afforded to you in the trans community? You're not trans, okay, but then who represents what and how shouldn't be a concern of yours or those who feel the same way.

As for being "outed", I admit it could have been the wrong word to use, but wasn't that the argument (not necessarily by you) of why they didn't want other transmen showing off their scars on television? Because someone may "clock" him for having said medical condition and question him as a man? Isn't that where the fear comes in?

I identify as a man. Stereotypical or not, I am a man. But I was born female, therefore by someone else's standards, I do not fit the assigned gender role. That was the point. Whether you start out male or start out female and transition, you break the norm. In that way, you are not like other men. It's not to say you are less of a man for that, because frankly, that's a BS argument if I ever heard one, but the difference between FTM and non-binary are only by the definitions that we place on each other.

As for that last line in the previous post, I apologize. I do not, however, agree with your last statement.

hmm so you want to know how i can identify as something that doesnt fit into this particular category. Interesting question.

I dont think i deserve any rights in the transgender commuity. I am not transgender. And im not overly concerned with who represents whom within it. It has no bearing on me.  I cant speak for anyone else's argument, so im not going to try. I am simply attempting to explain what I see happening. i think your response does a good job of magnifying the gulf between those who identify as man with a different experience and those who identify as trans something. 

Again, the question in the OP is whether or not gender queer folks are a detriment to the progress of the trans community.

As far as what has been said about scars.  I think it is frustrating for a lot of guys (trans or not) for two scars accross the chest to lead to result in a thought of "you had/have a vagina" I think for alot of guys its sort of a matter of privacy.

And its correct, no one is really like someone else. A guy with pyronies is not like a guy without it. Doesnt mean he wants to run around talking about his crooked penis to everyone.

Any way, my whole bottom line is this. Everyone should identify how they want. Who cares if others dont like it? You have a right to identify any way you want, and I have a right to say "that person does not speak for me" or "that person does not represent me and I wish they didnt claim to"

Its been nice discussing this, (not sarcasm, it has really been interesting) but it's late where I am and its about time for me to wrap up my work. I think this is a fascinating world, with amazing people in it. We all feel how we do and I have no desire to change your mind or be changed by your opinion. I find dialogue very interesting but I can not speak for anyone else so I can not address your concerns about some overall argument that I have not been a part of.

My response to the orignal question whether or not gender queer folks in the media are harmful has been given. 

I hope everyone has a great day/night/afternoon

Erm, excuse me.. Not only being late to the party again, but been away licking my wounds for the past couple of years.. although as someone who is both non-binary *and* physically transitioning, I feel the need to say my piece.

QuoteIs it better if the media for transgender is showing people who seams very clear succsesfull male/woman without doubt, to give a good impression of transpeople.

or do you feel the media should be more fluent to show diffrent kind fo transpeople so everyone is invold and that this fluentness will make trans seams more normal.

Everyone's different, so both are good. Of course binary trans-folk should be covered in the media, especially since that's how most people seem to identify. However, the problem is that these are the *only* trans-folk highlighted in the media.

Speaking from a personal viewpoint, this creates all sorts of problems:

- Because the only guys* on documentaries "definitely knew they were [id'ed gender]", and tend to fit the stereotypes fairly well (at least), I'm left not feeling well represented. This leads to...
- - Spending ages wondering why I felt ill at ease with my body, feeling uncomfortable being treated as a girl, but feeling "Well I can't be trans, I don't relate to much (if any) of how those guys felt"
- - Being faced with a mother who insists I was a girl when little, because I collected My Little Pony and played with dolls, despite the fact that I also enjoyed playing with Lego, Stickle Bricks etc with my brother and climbing trees
- - Hearing remarks to the tune of "But you wore skirts and make-up in your teens!" (Yeah, during the time I figured that was how I was meant to dress)
- - Being asked "those questions" by cis-folk who expect certain responses, e.g assuming I "felt like a man in a girl's body" because that's how everyone like me felt, isn't it? Yay, I get to scramble their brains even more by telling them not every trans person has the same feelings :P
- Then of course, you get the fun of being mis-understood (at best) by people within the trans community, as seen in this thread. Just because you don't *think* there's a gender spectrum, doesn't mean it's not there.

Actually, that debate in this thread is a perfect example of why we need (more) GQs in the media. Educate binary trans-folk, educate cis-folk, enlighten those who are self-questioning but don't identify with anyone in the documentaries.

*guys as in everyone, not just men

Augh, I hate this stupid connection >_< I also added that I'm not poking anyone in particular, just bear in mind that you can be non-binary *and* transsexual. We all change our bodies for the same reason - to feel more at home in our own skin.

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 09:26:23 AM
oh. Gotcha. I agree, I think most people try to be kind. The "kid" was older than me because I was a kid when it happened. He was bigger than me so I wouldnt call him harmless and I fail to see how using words like "jerk" is any better than me finding a haircut funny.

Really? I think a lot of people are actually rather unpleasant. Most people think they are kind, but that isn't quite the same thing. If as many people tried to be kind as thought they were kind, this world would look very, very different.

And etiquette is a social contract. You breached it. Why would you expect me to continue to treat you with respect? As far as I'm concerned, I am being far more polite to you than you have any "right" to expect.

Quote from: Cain on January 29, 2013, 11:32:53 AM
I came here to say basically this, and you said it better than I ever could have. +1 to you. :) May I show your response to a guy who's been harassing me for being "politically correct" IRL?

Thanks. :)

You are more than welcome to use it. I'd only ask that you edit out the part that refers to this particular situation (i.e. the last two paragraphs).

Quote from: Natkat on January 27, 2013, 03:17:20 PM
[
I am wondering about those questions, what do you think?

Is it better if the media for transgender is showing people who seams very clear succsesfull male/woman without doubt, to give a good impression of transpeople.

or do you feel the media should be more fluent to show diffrent kind fo transpeople so everyone is invold and that this fluentness will make trans seams more normal.

-----

Kia Ora Natkat,

::) I would have thought most trans-people who are fortunate enough to 'blend in' would have an overwhelming desire to do just that...
To expose ones 'transness' publicly would defeat the whole purpose of transitioning...

However in answer to your question, I think it makes more sense for there to be a mix when it comes to media exposure.

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: chuck on January 29, 2013, 02:41:59 PM
hmm so you want to know how i can identify as something that doesnt fit into this particular category. Interesting question.

I dont think i deserve any rights in the transgender commuity. I am not transgender. And im not overly concerned with who represents whom within it. It has no bearing on me.  I cant speak for anyone else's argument, so im not going to try. I am simply attempting to explain what I see happening. i think your response does a good job of magnifying the gulf between those who identify as man with a different experience and those who identify as trans something. 

Again, the question in the OP is whether or not gender queer folks are a detriment to the progress of the trans community.

As far as what has been said about scars.  I think it is frustrating for a lot of guys (trans or not) for two scars accross the chest to lead to result in a thought of "you had/have a vagina" I think for alot of guys its sort of a matter of privacy.

And its correct, no one is really like someone else. A guy with pyronies is not like a guy without it. Doesnt mean he wants to run around talking about his crooked penis to everyone.

Any way, my whole bottom line is this. Everyone should identify how they want. Who cares if others dont like it? You have a right to identify any way you want, and I have a right to say "that person does not speak for me" or "that person does not represent me and I wish they didnt claim to"

Its been nice discussing this, (not sarcasm, it has really been interesting) but it's late where I am and its about time for me to wrap up my work. I think this is a fascinating world, with amazing people in it. We all feel how we do and I have no desire to change your mind or be changed by your opinion. I find dialogue very interesting but I can not speak for anyone else so I can not address your concerns about some overall argument that I have not been a part of.

My response to the orignal question whether or not gender queer folks in the media are harmful has been given. 

I hope everyone has a great day/night/afternoon

I'm sure this post won't illicit a response but I would like to clarify the same point because I feel you misunderstood. Or perhaps I misunderstood you. You can say someone doesn't speak for you or represent you, as a man. My question solely lies in the fact that why would it be a concern of yours when you claim no part in the transgender community? That is what makes me curious: those solely wanting to be seen as a man – only a man with no ties to ->-bleeped-<- or its spectrum but still have a voice within the community, who still feels the need to dictate this person is a "detriment" to the gender social structure? It shouldn't matter because you are not transgender, by your own definition.

And yes, I understood what the OP was asking. My arguments started off on the subject and, as more points were brought up, I added. The above paragraph, I feel, is still on topic.

As for showing scars and automatically thinking someone is hiding a vagina, shouldn't we be more concerned about assumption itself rather than preferring someone to hide how they identify, scars and all? And you don't have to talk about it – continue to live stealth and be happy. The point was people are worrying that those who don't pass, those that are non-binary are somehow going to ruin what little progress there is – that is a load that surely stinks.

There are no facts to prove this to be true, and the overall message isn't accept only me or accept only a "real" man. It is accept me. Me who is more than my medical condition. Me who is more than transgender. Me who is more than just the labels and indentifyers. Me who is a person, no matter the similarities and differences between us. I am your brother. I am your sister. I am your broster. I am family. I am human. I deserve to be respected. I deserved to be seen as an equal.

That is the message I want to be seen. That is the message I'm arguing for. I don't see non-binary folks as a detriment. I find those that want to block out a part of the community from having a voice to be an issue though.

As you have said, it has been an interesting conversation. Thank you for being open and honest.