Didn't want to hijack the thread so thought I'd start a new one to ask my question.
I seem to be experiencing similar to transtrender and Jen, but in an unhealthy and undesirable way. I guess I have changed and I'm none too happy about it.
I am *more* effeminate now as a male than I ever was as female. {See my blog for more info if you're interested}
I'm so much softer, more empathetic, nicer, etc. I'm now obsessed with decorating and interior design. Never even noticed the wallpaper as a female. Hell, I am taking fashion. Yes, you heard that right. F-A-S-H-I-O-N! :icon_eek:
I have never sewn or so much as hemmed or stitched a thread in my life. And I certainly wasn't into fashion as a girl. Now I have some pathological need to design clothes. :icon_blah:
Even my mother noted: 'You were so much more of a guy when you were a girl'.
So, have you changed since transition? And are you ok with it?
EDIT: I will note though, that my thought patterns and values and everything internal is the same. It's my 'outside' behavior and hobbies that have changed. I'm more expressive, more likely to open up with female friends (only on here though; no cis female friends yet). I now have this huge 'empathy' thing that simply was not there before. And this empathy thing is driving me up the wall.
Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: transtrender on February 09, 2013, 02:13:27 PM
i guess the greatest level on which i can understand gender is like this: the way i like and interact and am attracted to and have sex with girls as someone who's perceived as female is way different than the way it was as someone perceived as male. being a straight dude just isn't the same as being a queer girl. i don't act like the same person, i don't think like the same person, i don't feel like the same person. and hell, i didn't start out transitioning finding asymmetrical haircuts and tattoos and piercings and conscious flouting of gender norms to be sexy. i thought "those people" were weird, i thought they were rejecting their "natural beauty" or idk something stupid like that. now i AM one of those people. and i also find them all incredibly sexy! the power of socialization is pretty strong.
This is the thing that always weirds me out. The changes. It never meant to become a different person through transition, and maybe I haven't, but when I go back and see things I wrote pre-transition and hear recordings of me talking pre-transition, that person does not seem like me at all. My thought processes are different, the language I use is much, much different, the things that I felt were important about any given subject were different, and none of that happened by any conscious effort.
In fact, it was very important to me for there to be continuity between the person I was when I presented male and the person I became when I started presenting female, because I always told myself that I had always been a girl/woman pretending to be a boy/man. If transitioning into the female role changed who I am as a person, whether by social or chemical influence it doesn't matter, that seems to contradict my ideas somewhat and I have to question them.
I think the changes that seem to have happened at my core weird me out more than the personality changes because I can explain those. I am less of an introvert because I have less to hide. I'm more of an optimist because life is better and brighter when there is hope. I enjoying being with people because interactions with them don't have to be sharp, stabbing reminders of how my station in life is completely wrong.
That the way I think has changed, my use of language has changed, my interests have changed, these things freak me out. I was supposed to be the same person just in a different wrapper that was more aptly reflective of the person within. Intellectually, that was the point of transition for me. I wasn't supposed to change into somebody else.
Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 04:51:15 PM
That the way I think has changed, my use of language has changed, my interests have changed, these things freak me out. I was supposed to be the same person just in a different wrapper that was more aptly reflective of the person within. Intellectually, that was the point of transition for me. I wasn't supposed to change into somebody else.
I just asked you this in the other thread, but since you're here now in mine:
Can you elaborate on these thinking, language, 'core' changes?
I could.... it's abstract though. I'll have to think about it a bit to put it into words I think. Hold please :)
Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 05:11:04 PM
I could.... it's abstract though. I'll have to think about it a bit to put it into words I think. Hold please :)
Ok, sorry I keep asking you the same things thread to thread. :laugh: You can just put it here.
Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 04:51:15 PM
I think the changes that seem to have happened at my core weird me out more than the personality changes because I can explain those. I am less of an introvert because I have less to hide. I'm more of an optimist because life is better and brighter when there is hope. I enjoying being with people because interactions with them don't have to be sharp, stabbing reminders of how my station in life is completely wrong.
This echoes so much for me what I have felt in those (still fairly rare) instances where I've felt I could fully be myself, even without benefit of HRT. It's hard from me to get into this space, though, without somehow feeling I have permission to "just be me" rather than feel that I'm policing myself somehow (which has been the vast part of my experience, apart from times when I was less self-conscious in school days). But I tend to feel that these would be the most important changes of all for me, presenting as female, even if some or even all people were "clocking" me. I've actually pushed my androgyny even further femme in recent weeks, but I wind up feeling some pushback and self consciousness about that, and I do wind up "toning it down" as a result, and then the dysphoria tends to come shooting back.
The darkness that hung over me no longer does. The changes have been really focused around discarding the chip on my shoulder I had from "Doing the world a favor" by staying in the closet.
I don't know that I'm becoming more compassionate, but I hope I am. With no longer needing to guard myself all the time, I've got the energy to be there for other people.
As for perhaps mismatched interests I've got that too. I had writing task today, a six word love story. Mine was: Amtrak teaches love with its bumps. Girl, boy, I love my choo-choos!
My second oldest friend loves fashion too, don't know that he designs anything but he mixes and matches well. One of my buddies from my undergrad days tops most women I know on the empathy front. Heck, the end of Boston Legal episodes with the male bonding between Denny and Alan. I can report a lot of guys want that kind of male bonding.
I'm trying to say that I don't think what you've described here indicates anything to worry about dude. You like what you like, and you'll probably have really sweet mancave someday. And you'll look good. Who knows? Maybe you're on just the right track to be of the, "Men want to be him, women want to be with him" verity! (sorry not-so FA, I don't know your orientation but I hope you still caught my meaning)
Yes, of course I've changed. If I ever stop changing, then it's time to bury me because I'll be a corpse. :P
In some ways, I've changed so much it would almost be easier to list the similarities between this Sarah and the previous iteration. I still adore stories. That's the same. Trying to think what else...
Luckily most of the folks in my life like this version better. I do too.
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 09, 2013, 04:31:48 PM
I seem to be experiencing similar to transtrender and Jen, but in an unhealthy and undesirable way.
Seriously, dude? You are nicer and more empathetic. Yes. That sounds TERRIBLE. What. A. Tragedy.
Can I just say I like the current version and I wish you could be a bit nicer to him?
Quote from: Misato33 on February 09, 2013, 05:40:49 PM
The darkness that hung over me no longer does. The changes have been really focused around discarding the chip on my shoulder I had from "Doing the world a favor" by staying in the closet.
I don't know that I'm becoming more compassionate, but I hope I am. With no longer needing to guard myself all the time, I've got the energy to be there for other people.
As for perhaps mismatched interests I've got that too. I had writing task today, a six word love story. Mine was: Amtrak teaches love with its bumps. Girl, boy, I love my choo-choos!
My second oldest friend loves fashion too, don't know that he designs anything but he mixes and matches well. One of my buddies from my undergrad days tops most women I know on the empathy front. Heck, the end of Boston Legal episodes with the male bonding between Denny and Alan. I can report a lot of guys want that kind of male bonding.
I'm trying to say that I don't think what you've described here indicates anything to worry about dude. You like what you like, and you'll probably have really sweet mancave someday. And you'll look good. Who knows? Maybe you're on just the right track to be of the, "Men want to be him, women want to be with him" verity! (sorry not-so FA, I don't know your orientation but I hope you still caught my meaning)
Thanks hon. I associate more 'feminine' traits with males. So, I think this is what has happened. I expect men to be more empathetic, and so I am.
Oh and just in case you really wanted to know, I'm bi. Unfortunately, I've had more men than women. And I have reason to believe that males are an acquired taste for me. I think the newfound 'feminine' traits stem from my relationships and interactions with males.
Quote from: Sarah7 on February 09, 2013, 05:56:09 PM
In some ways, I've changed so much it would almost be easier to list the similarities between this Sarah and the previous iteration. I still adore stories. That's the same. Trying to think what else...
It is comforting to know I'm not the only one. I guess, ultimately, I'm glad I didn't know these changes would happen before I started transition because I feel like I would have resisted them, but in the end I'm super happy with who I am now.
Quote from: Sarah7 on February 09, 2013, 05:56:09 PM
Can I just say I like the current version and I wish you could be a bit nicer to him?
Thanks. :) Hmm nicer to him? Not sure he deserves it.
Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 06:26:31 PM
It is comforting to know I'm not the only one. I guess, ultimately, I'm glad I didn't know these changes would happen before I started transition because I feel like I would have resisted them, but in the end I'm super happy with who I am now.
Well, I'm at least glad to hear that you are happy with your new self. That makes a difference. :)
I didn't think anything had changed until I looked back at some of my older posts and videos and such.
Like you, my values and stuff are the same, but a lot of external things have changed. Although I was never super "butch" before hormones, I find I'm becoming simultaneously more masculine and more feminine.
We're going off stereotypes when I say "masculine" and "feminine", but I'll just use them to make sense of what has changed. My mannerisms have changed to pretty male all in all. Same with facial expressions, how I think about particular things like organization, etc. But I am more open to doing things that as a "woman" I was never comfortable doing. Just a small example...a few days ago, I was messing with my brother's girl perfumes (I know, lol) and I sprayed a cherry blossom one on my sweater to see how it smelled. And I actually really enjoyed smelling like cherry blossoms. It was weird, because before T, that would have made me feel so dysphoric and terrible. Even when I was presenting female I could only wear male deodorants and feel comfortable.
I also, like you, am developing an interest in fashion. Not to design, and I certainly haven't acted on it, but I find I want to experiment with more colours, styles, accessories. The only thing stopping me is the fear I wouldn't look very good doing it.
I also find I'm not really fighting my female socialization in the way I used to. I used to hate being more expressive (sometimes still do, when I'm insecure or whatever). It was always a goal to act more like a manly guy, be a bit more aggressive, whatever, and I believed as I became more comfortable as a man that would happen. But now, I simply have no desire to be that way. I really like being a "softer" type of guy.
What's funny is, none of this has made anyone see me as a gay man. My voice still has female tones and stuff, but the rest of my mannerisms aren't that feminine anymore. I don't move my eyes as much, my expression is a bit "harder", but not stern, and I don't use as many gestures and stuff. Everyone (as far as I know) just thinks I'm a feminine straight guy, and I really like it like that. My entire life, people were always pushing me to take an interest in fashion, stereotypically feminine things, to be softer...and I always pushed away and fought like hell. It is only as I slowly begin to pass and see a guy in the mirror that I can do these things.
Just curious though, why don't you like your changes? I sometimes feel weird about mine, but I mostly know inside me it's right.
I'm much more aware of visuals than I used to be. Not just naked male torsos (:P) but how my place is decorated and how women put together a "look." I don't care about women's fashions, but I notice colors more.
I'm less patient, so I have to rein myself in when I'm working with frustrating students. It's becoming less of a struggle, though. I'm much more able to draw the line with students, and I'm less of a pushover. At the same time, I'm more understanding and empathetic--probably because I'm more comfortable with myself and how I'm seen.
I've always been a ham in front of the class, but I used to be more tentative about it. Now I just let 'er rip and don't worry about what they think. I'm just me, and that's the way I am.
I'm much more in tune with my feelings--partly because I'm turning them off less and partly because the T seems to make some emotions a lot "bigger." I'm still struggling with feelings; defrosting at the same time the T is acting on my brain has been, and continues to be, fairly scary. A few times, I've said and done stupid things. I'm vigilant and make fewer mistakes now, but that also means that I'm holding myself in, the same way I used to. Same old pattern, and I'm only just realizing it and beginning to work on it.
One thing I wasn't expecting is fear--fear that I would do or say something I'd regret. I still have to keep a vigilant eye on myself. I think of myself as a teenage boy who sometimes blurts things out or leaps before he looks. If I successfully survive adolescence, I'll settle down into new patterns. One of these days, I'll be more comfortable, more in control, more relaxed. Not as scared.
All in all, I'm a better and happier person, although I still have some major issues to work through. I recently told someone that I liked it better when I had my emotions turned off, but sometimes I feel that way and sometimes not. Being an emotional zombie is truly a double-edged sword, for both men and women.
I guess I'm becoming human, and that has advantages and disadvantages.
Yes I have changed, more than I ever thought.
When I tried to transition in my early 20's I had a very close female sis friend whom I used to share everything with and when I came out to her she used to tell me, "Ok now you are going to be a girl, so you should adjust your mannerism, you should learn to cook, etc. there were so many stereotypical do's and don't she told me and it scared everything out of me, it scared me enough to put my transition on hold. there were so many stereotypical traits I hated and I didn't wanted to loose who I was. I was never a feminine boy.
But after 18 months in to HRT I have changed in many ways and much than I ever though I will. Iam still not a stereotypical feminine woman but I like more feminine things than I used to and I really enjoying doing them too. I am more concern about how I look and It takes hours for me to get ready before I go some where. before HRT, it only took couple of minutes. I didn't care about anything as long as my out fit was androgynous. Before my transition I hardly though about my self with self respect and I was always putting my self on the edge. I was a careless person who never thought about my self or future for a second which made me a very selfless person. I would give away and anything I owned to others and I would take time to solve other peoples problems even if it means getting in to trouble my self. I always put my self at risk for others to get out of trouble. I always concerned about my friends future and willing to sacrifice my self because I never thought of my own future. Making others happy was the only goal in my life and I did everything I possibly can to do that.
But I am not that person any more. I still like to help others and I am still someone with lot of empathy. But now I am thinking of my self more and more. I think of my future and I am not trying to help others if it means getting my self in trouble. That way I think I have become little bit of a selfish person.
The way I present my self my mannerism had changed a lot. I am much more grace full than I used to be, But I am not too feminine. I am still adventurous and a adrenaline junkie like I used to be and guys love it. Specially the ones who doesn't know about my past. For them I am just a fun girl who love adventure and enjoying doing crazy things they liked to do. I am loving being that girl.
Yes, after my transition I have changed. My mannerism had changed, The way I speak changed and even the way I think and feel have changed. But my core, who I was had never changed. I don't know the changes are for better or worse. All I know is I am much much happy now than I ever was.
Quote from: anya on February 09, 2013, 11:33:07 PM
Before my transition I hardly though about my self with self respect and I was always putting my self on the edge. I was a careless person who never thought about my self or future for a second which made me a very selfless person. I would give away and anything I owned to others and I would take time to solve other peoples problems even if it means getting in to trouble my self. I always put my self at risk for others to get out of trouble. I always concerned about my friends future and willing to sacrifice my self because I never thought of my own future. Making others happy was the only goal in my life and I did everything I possibly can to do that.
Wow. This part really speaks to me. I knew I was doing this in a lot of ways, but I didn't put it together like this until I saw you saying it.
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 09, 2013, 04:31:48 PM
I'm so much softer, more empathetic, nicer, etc. I'm now obsessed with decorating and interior design.
I can't find anything wrong with a guy being softer, more empathetic, nicer, etc. Well for me these are some thing I seriously consider positive traits in any human being,Male or female. Iwill always prefer a guy who is softer, more empathetic, nicer over a guy who is rude hurt other feelings and too macho.
I can't speak for everyone, but for me you are my type of guy lol. I will be honored to have you as a friend any day.
About the decorating and interior design. I know loads of men who love those. As an Architect I can tell you there is nothing wrong being obsessed with design. I have lot of straight male friends obsessed with Architecture, interior design and even fashion design. That's just who we are 8)
Yes.
I have opened up alot more, and have gained the ability to be myself without giving a damn about what others think about it :).
Other than that, I have become more sensitive. My interests have very much changed, before they where machines, military history, computer gaming etc. Now I have lost all interest in machinery and military stuff + that I cant stand to play computer games more than maybe an hour (before I could sit a wole day without problems.
I also gained some interests like makeup, fashion etc.
Sexually there is a diff too, before I was only into girls. Now I can go with both but I am still more into girls than guys.
Another funny thing is that it seems that I have got the ability to joke :P. Before nobody would laugh when I did. Now people laugh even when I am not joking intentionally. I like it :)
I'm not on T yet (soon) but there have been changes. I am more assertive than I used to be. At work, I had been workign without an assistant for all last year. A month ago, I said "I should have an aide for 6th period". The next day I got one. Another thing is that I like how I look. I never liked how I looked.
--Jay
Quote from: Arch on February 09, 2013, 09:57:21 PM
One thing I wasn't expecting is fear--fear that I would do or say something I'd regret. I still have to keep a vigilant eye on myself. I think of myself as a teenage boy who sometimes blurts things out or leaps before he looks.
This is what I'm talking about with the sort of 'hamstringing empathy' I'm going through. Like I'm soo careful what I say now. I mean, even to the point of rereading my words before posting here in case there is anything that could possibly be taken the wrong way or offensive. Like I'm so concerned with people's feelings now. This is supposed to be a female trait. It kind of scares me. Everyone knows what they say about nice guys.
Quote from: Caleb. on February 09, 2013, 07:13:34 PM
Just curious though, why don't you like your changes? I sometimes feel weird about mine, but I mostly know inside me it's right.
Hmm. Well, I do like the new interests in 'female' things like interior decor and fashion design. I feel weird about it though. Like now I'm just 'acting like a girl', I guess. I mean I know cis guys do these things too. But having been born female, I'm not sure liking these things is very flattering to me.
I wanted to take fashion for several years (nearly the same time I transitioned), but resisted. Found the very idea ludicrous and threatening to my manhood. And
sewing? Seriously? I've gone off the deep end. Not only have I never done it in my life, but I can't fathom why I want to do it. I even <cringe> thought about possibly making drapes when I get my sewing machine. <shudder>
Don't overlook the obvious of who you were before and who you are now. For example, before my transition I was a very quiet introverted person. In fact it was very difficult to get to know me at all. I can remember one way it which it showed was at work. If I were speaking from a position of knowledge or authority, then I would speak up for myself because I knew I couldn't be challenged, but idle chit chat in a conference room? I was hopelssly lost and just sitting there. I was a very miserable person in my past life. If there was a company gathering I never showed. I didn't even want to show up once when they were honoring me for some achievement.
Fast forward to today, in the same conference room I am just as likely to speak from a position of knowledge as I am likely to use humor, idle chit chat, getting to know someone personally, human interaction in general. I am also 100 times more likely tol et my feelings be known to myelf or my boss. I am more likely to show any emotions that are needed, happiness, sadness, disappointment, anything. My gender transition turned me from a dark miserable to a functioning happy human being. How can I ever knock that even in a hundred lifetimes?
After I started living full time as a woman, a giant tidal wave of represssed feminity came gushing out of me. Suddenly I was let loose on the world. I could wear a skirt, a dress, tight fitting jeans, heels, or flats. I remember the joy of getting my ears pierced, what a wonderful moment that was. I became an earring hunt, buying pairs of earrings all the time. I remember getting my first manicure and pedicure and having gel nails with designs on them. Wearing sandals to show off my pretty toenails. I was a portrait of perfect feminity.
I threw away everything from past, my music, love of cars, my desire to be left alone, so that I could experience the world unfettered. I wll never forget about 9 months of living full time I was looking at one of my guitars and I was actually sad because I couldn't play it. So I slowly and painfully pulled off my gel nails so that I could play my guitar once again. It was around that time that I began to realize I really didn't have to throw away my old life. In the days when I transitioned, there was still an expectation that a MTF becomes a woman and takes on housewife role, cooking, cleaning, etc. I was saying f*** that, that's a worse trap than where I came from. I was like the little canary who grew up in a dark lifeless cage. Did I want to move into another cage, or did I want to be free like I was at that moment, with no cage and no boundaries? I chose freedom.
I do know that SRS surgery changed me psychologically. I was definitely a different person after it was done. Before the surgery, every square inch of my body was feminine, except a few. That surgery fixed the last few and suddenly I didn't have anything to hide anymore. I was all girl and I knew it. It was a real gamechanger of an operation for me. I was a woman unleashed and had no cage or boundaries. I could do anything, experiment in any topic or thing, be it masculine or feminine. It took me a few years t realize I was a fusion of 2 people, the person I was and the person I was and in fact still am becoming. My masculine upbringing gave me oodles of confidence and assertiveness. Far more than any born woman could ever have. My freedom gave me extroversion. I lik bonding wth people, chit chatting. I am about to leave to the gym after I finish this post and I am looking forward to chatting it up with my women friends there.
I guess what I am saying is, we can never escape our pasts. Admin, you yourself are a fusion of who you are and who you were just as I am. It's what makes trans people so unique and different. A man who isn't a thoughtless prick, or a woman who isn't afraid to bust her knuckles on a project. We are the truly free ones because everyone else lives in a gender silo except us. We can stay in silo for a while if it makes us happy, or jump over to the other silo if it that's what we want to do. Or for that matter we ca do choose no silo and move where we please. You like sewing clothes, I love busting knuckles. None of that changes the fact that I am a woman or you a man. Enjoy the differences and look down with pity at the people trapped in the silos.
Hmm. The consensus so far seems to be that mtfs proceed down the expected road in becoming more feminine after transition and we ftms do the opposite?
Both groups seem to display more feminine traits such as empathy, etc. after transition.
Thoughts?
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 10, 2013, 07:22:57 AM
Hmm. The consensus so far seems to be that mtfs proceed down the expected road in becoming more feminine after transition and we ftms do the opposite?
Both groups seem to display more feminine traits such as empathy, etc. after transition.
Thoughts?
I was a shell pre-transition. Now I'm a person. That's the diff.
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 10, 2013, 07:22:57 AM
Hmm. The consensus so far seems to be that mtfs proceed down the expected road in becoming more feminine after transition and we ftms do the opposite?
Both groups seem to display more feminine traits such as empathy, etc. after transition.
Thoughts?
I would hardly call my life conventionally feminine. I still do things that I enjoyed in my past that are definitely not very girly, but still doesn't alter the fact of who I am. As Sarah says in a subsequent post, I was a shell of a person before breathing only because it was necessary. Now I am a happy and complete person who sometimes does girly things and sometimes not. That's the difference. In my mind that doesn't mean things had to fall neatly into buckets, only guys can do this, and only girls can do that.
You might perceive things as being more feminine only because we both share something. We are a blend of both genders, not quite one and not quite the other. I don't consider it a bother, I consider a gift. I guess it's all in ones point of view I suppose.
I would chalk up the "Odd" changes post-transition to you finally realizing that it is OK to simply be the real and true you. Not someone elses image that you needed to live up to. Not some idealized imaged that you wanted to live up to.
Transitioning allowed you to be the real and true you. Is that "Odd"?
My observation is that there is a "full-time" for mtfs where they start presenting as a woman and living as one full time. A lot of time they do not pass at this point, but sometimes they do. I don't know that there is a "full-time" for ftms. I haven't heard this concept too much. What happens with us is that as we start passing then we start living as the gender we should be. So I think it is understandable how things could be reverse for us.
--Jay
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 10, 2013, 05:09:28 AM
I wanted to take fashion for several years (nearly the same time I transitioned), but resisted. Found the very idea ludicrous and threatening to my manhood.
I have the same feeling. Before I transition, when ever I saw some thing needed to be fixed, I used to fixed it. It may be a broken faucet or furniture and I was really good at it too. I think that's something I got it from my grand farther. He used to be a really good handy man when I was little and I loved fixing thing. I loved the challenge.
I still have the urge to fix when ever I see something is broken. But now I stop my self before doing anything about it because I feel it is something too masculine for me to do as woman. I think this is because I am still worried about who I used to be and I don't want to do anything which may give away hints of my past.
Let me qualify what I said. I've never been very accepting of, well, stupidity and general assholishness. But now I am even less accepting and much more likely to call the other person on it. So my empathy extends only so far.
When confronted with a student who just doesn't "get" a concept or pattern, I have been able to continue the same patience I used to practice, although it is often a struggle. I'm actually more understanding than I was, probably because I'm now keenly aware of what I didn't understand about my own self--the lies I told myself, the self-ignorance that I justified in weird ways. The crap I've been through. How stupid I felt when I realized how much I had kept from myself.
But when confronted with a student who didn't do the assignment because he or she "didn't know" what I meant in the assignment description, my response is now usually, "Why didn't you ask?" When the student "didn't know" that the assignment was due today, my automatic response is, "Why didn't you know? Did you check the schedule? No? Well, now you know what to do next time."
I'll be pretty lenient during the first week or week and a half. After that, not so much. And I have far less patience with people who cut in line at the store, make a lot of noise outside my classroom, and cut people off in traffic.
So I suppose I'm harder in some ways and softer in others. It's a mixed bag.
I think that one reason I hated (and still hate) my mother so much is that she is female and she wanted me to be a female. I was allowed considerable latitude to be a tomboy, but only to a point. Then she started pushing. She was also not the world's nicest person. I didn't want to be anything like her. Now I'm beginning to realize that a lot of this resistance was a knee-jerk anti-female reaction. I was opposed to cooking and sewing for the same reasons--despite Title IX, those were presented as my only practical arts choices in junior high school. I was similarly resistant to anything that smacked of home decorating, although I loved rearranging my bedroom.
Now that I'm mostly transitioned, I still hate cooking and sewing, but I care very much about how my place looks. I spent hours putting together my bathroom. I can do this because I've always been interested in it but never allowed myself full rein because I saw it as a girly thing. Now I see it as a gay thing, and I have fun with it. It actually reinforces my gay identity.
But, alas, I still have the mommy issues. >:(
Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 04:51:15 PM
I think the changes that seem to have happened at my core weird me out more than the personality changes because I can explain those. I am less of an introvert because I have less to hide. I'm more of an optimist because life is better and brighter when there is hope. I enjoying being with people because interactions with them don't have to be sharp, stabbing reminders of how my station in life is completely wrong.
That the way I think has changed, my use of language has changed, my interests have changed, these things freak me out. I was supposed to be the same person just in a different wrapper that was more aptly reflective of the person within. Intellectually, that was the point of transition for me. I wasn't supposed to change into somebody else.
oh whoa. yeah. this is me, so much.
count me among the many who bought into the line of "the same person, just different on the outside" early on. i used it with friends, used it with my parents, used it with myself, and sort of figured that it would be true, right? that hormones don't mean anything, gender doesn't mean anything, and that what's it called, there was that line from orlando i think. the point is that the changing wasn't supposed to be the sort of thing that would strike a final death blow to the sad sack dude i was trying to get away from. i was trying to cheer him up with the warmth of opportunity, and ended up blowtorching him.
and then slowly, so gradually that i didn't even realize that it was happening as it did, someone else took his place, and that someone was me.
when i told my parents, when i assured them that their son wasn't going to die, i had no idea how wrong that was going to end up being. it's weird, i can't even begin to summon the words to describe how much not-me that person was, and i can't figure out how that person was me, i can't reconcile the notion that that was my childhood and adolescence because it doesn't make any sense.
it's freaky. it's one thing to mature, to change my tastes, to have shifts in personality, to start speaking in slightly different ways due to the influence of others. but all of these happened at once, and to a degree so vast that i'm not sure how to relate any of them to each other. there's a disconnect between the person who formerly inhabited this body and me, and whenever i think too long about that, i get weird and uncomfortable cognitive dissonance. i don't know how i got from where i was to where i am.
i'm glad i don't think about it more than i do.
Quote from: Sarah7 on February 10, 2013, 07:53:33 AM
I was a shell pre-transition. Now I'm a person. That's the diff.
that's the only thing i can tell myself about before, but the weirdest part is, what if it's not true? what if there was a person that i just obliterated in order to exist? it would be easy for me to say that i just inhabited what had been empty space, but it certainly FEELS like my existence came at the cost of someone else's.
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 10, 2013, 07:22:57 AM
Hmm. The consensus so far seems to be that mtfs proceed down the expected road in becoming more feminine after transition and we ftms do the opposite?
Both groups seem to display more feminine traits such as empathy, etc. after transition.
Thoughts?
I think a lot of stereotypically feminine traits are seen by society (and probably by us as well) as having a certain level of "vulnerability", although I personally believe being vulnerable is the bravest thing anyone can do. You have to be very brave, and open, to let your true self and your true feelings show. I think when we are hiding who we are, it's because we are afraid, and we don't want to be emotionally vulnerable because it might give away our secret. But when we accept ourselves and have the chance to start living as ourselves, it's easier to lay that self and those feelings down on the line.
Thinking about it more, I think it may be similar to what Arch just posted. My parents were pretty good about letting me do whatever I wanted in terms of gendered stuff...but there were some family members who pushed feminine things on me, and didn't even give me the option to choose between things for "boys" and things for "girls." I came out as a "lesbian" first, at 18, because it seemed to be what fit...I liked girls, and I assumed that lesbians didn't feel like women either. While it was liberating and brought me a lot of happiness to not be hiding one part of myself anymore, I was really angry as well. I was furious that I felt pressured to hide the "masculine" parts of myself. That it was just assumed I'd want to grow up to be a stereotypically feminine and straight woman. That I wasn't given the choice. What made me even angrier was that when people found out I liked girls, I got the same crap! From near strangers, no less. Sure, there was the "Why don't you just try being with a guy? You don't even know what it's like, you can't say you're a lesbian." But people also mixed it together. There was also "You're such a pretty girl, you don't have to be a lesbian. Dress a little nicer, act a little more feminine, and you'll find your man." As if.
So to me, I think on some level, I took feminine behaviours as submission to some extent. Submission to what everyone else was trying to tell me about who I was. Yet at the same time, I never acted like a stereotypical guy either. Because the stereotypical guys were the guys who made my life miserable...they were the ones who put me down all the time and tried to make me into a proper straight girl. I did retain a lot of my feminine traits, but they were saved for those I cared for...to the rest of the world, I did try to put on a more masculine presentation than suits me.
But now, I know I don't owe anyone an explanation. Much like I didn't have to explain why I wanted to be with a woman and not a man, I owe no one an explanation as to what I like and what I don't like. I know I am a man, and I will do what I want, be it considered feminine or masculine. I don't care if they think it makes my transition a mistake, if they think it's just me not "working hard enough" to alter my socialization, if they think I'm a "sissy" guy, if they think I'm a gay man (they don't seem to though). I'm not entirely there yet, but it's a work in progress. One day I will hold a lot less back.
I read all the posts and thought that some overanalyze somewhat where I just take some things in stride, but I get criticism for never asking enough questions about things that should be important to me, so this thread has set me to thinking.
Other than external changes I have changed rather dramatically in terms of personality. Formerly I was considered a type-A chloric personality. Forceful, opinionated, something of a passive-aggressive ->-bleeped-<-, I can admit to that now in retrospect, although I would never have admitted it before. How could I when I was always right? I have moved from that extreme to a type-B personality, laid back, empathetic, patient with others, kind and loving. Mr. ->-bleeped-<- is gone forever and is not being missed.
My brain and thought processes have changed dramatically, I enjoy shopping when before I would avoid malls at all costs. I am at home and comfortable in the women's intimates department, before I felt like a whale out of water. In terms of intimacy, I experience the emotional side that was never there before. I must own 20+ firearms that are gathering dust in the gun locker, I no longer have a desire to shoot at the range or go hunting with the Neanderthal former buddies anymore, I'm just not interested. I enjoy lengthy conversations with women about women's issues, family, children, and relationships, before it was just so much silly women's drivel. I should say that over the last 18 years of the longest transition ever, that there has been rather dramatic changes, I suppose that my transition will be complete when I pass out of this life.
I kind of feel like you are in my head, transtrender.
Let me say right up front, my bias is that I want the person I have become through transition to be the person I truly always was, because I really don't like the idea that my existence came at the cost of somebody else's, for a lot of reasons. Not wanting to be guilty of essentially killing the person whom my family and friends loved is probably the biggest one. Even though the truth is, if that really was a different person, they would not exist today whether I transitioned or not.
So I want to find an explanation like maybe that previous iteration of myself was just a distortion of the real person within and the changes I have noticed were just the result of me not trying desperately to fit into the male world anymore? Or maybe that person was a phony, fakey, shell and the perceived changes are just the result of removing a facade to reveal the real person within? Elspeth talking about the journal she kept as a mormon did strike a chord with me on that front.
Maybe that's it. I want to believe that's it. Then again, the simpler explanation seems to just be that I have become a different person. That previous iteration of myself died after all on the day I chose not to end my life but to fight for it and go down this path. That kind of makes me saaaaaaaaaaaad.... :(
And yeah, overanalyzing... I feel myself doing that here. This subject is kind of a biggie for me though.
Quote from: Jen on February 10, 2013, 08:03:56 PM
I kind of feel like you are in my head, transtrender.
Let me say right up front, my bias is that I want the person I have become through transition to be the person I truly always was, because I really don't like the idea that my existence came at the cost of somebody else's, for a lot of reasons. Not wanting to be guilty of essentially killing the person whom my family and friends loved is probably the biggest one. Even though the truth is, if that really was a different person, they would not exist today whether I transitioned or not.
So I want to find an explanation like maybe that previous iteration of myself was just a distortion of the real person within and the changes I have noticed were just the result of me not trying desperately to fit into the male world anymore? Or maybe that person was a phony, fakey, shell and the perceived changes are just the result of removing a facade to reveal the real person within? Elspeth talking about the journal she kept as a mormon did strike a chord with me on that front.
Maybe that's it. I want to believe that's it. Then again, the simpler explanation seems to just be that I have become a different person. That previous iteration of myself died after all on the day I chose not to end my life but to fight for it and go down this path. That kind of makes me saaaaaaaaaaaad.... :(
And yeah, overanalyzing... I feel myself doing that here. This subject is kind of a biggie for me though.
yoooo, same here, it's freaky, like reading someone who's cribbing lines from your thoughts or something. idk even how to respond, it's just, wow.
i want to believe the same thing, but i know it's not true. it doesn't fit right, and i know that when i actually think back and think hard about who i was and what i was thinking and i know that The Real Me wasn't locked up there somewhere, the real me was what i was presenting to the world because well there was no like Secret Attitude that i wanted to have that i didn't, no Emotional Liberation that i would get if i were True To Myself. it was just me obsessing over how much i hated my body.
and the worst part is that i think i prefer who i am today, that i'm HAPPY on some level that that other person was destroyed.
Quote from: Jen on February 10, 2013, 08:03:56 PM
I kind of feel like you are in my head, transtrender.
Let me say right up front, my bias is that I want the person I have become through transition to be the person I truly always was, because I really don't like the idea that my existence came at the cost of somebody else's, for a lot of reasons. Not wanting to be guilty of essentially killing the person whom my family and friends loved is probably the biggest one. Even though the truth is, if that really was a different person, they would not exist today whether I transitioned or not.
So I want to find an explanation like maybe that previous iteration of myself was just a distortion of the real person within and the changes I have noticed were just the result of me not trying desperately to fit into the male world anymore? Or maybe that person was a phony, fakey, shell and the perceived changes are just the result of removing a facade to reveal the real person within? Elspeth talking about the journal she kept as a mormon did strike a chord with me on that front.
Maybe that's it. I want to believe that's it. Then again, the simpler explanation seems to just be that I have become a different person. That previous iteration of myself died after all on the day I chose not to end my life but to fight for it and go down this path. That kind of makes me saaaaaaaaaaaad.... :(
And yeah, overanalyzing... I feel myself doing that here. This subject is kind of a biggie for me though.
Hmm how do you know this 'old you' wasn't just your male persona? I had a 'female persona' but she was reserved for certain people and situations. There wasn't much to her. She tried to act and speak how she thought women did. You can imagine how that went. :laugh: She was actually a poor imitation of Marilyn Monroe. Anyway, people would get irritated when she would vanish into thin air and become a man without warning.
First thread to draw tears since I came back 'round here. Hooray...! hmmmm..
Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 10, 2013, 09:42:18 PM
Hmm how do you know this 'old you' wasn't just your male persona? I had a 'female persona' but she was reserved for certain people and situations. There wasn't much to her. She tried to act and speak how she thought women did. You can imagine how that went. :laugh: She was actually a poor imitation of Marilyn Monroe. Anyway, people would get irritated when she would vanish into thin air and become a man without warning.
Well, I don't know that it wasn't. Maybe it was just a persona. Transtrender brought up the term "cognitive dissonance" and that describes the feeling I get when I look back at how I was, and it just makes me... doubt, and wonder, and obsess.
Quote from: Shantel on February 10, 2013, 06:51:05 PM
Other than external changes I have changed rather dramatically in terms of personality. Formerly I was considered a type-A chloric personality. Forceful, opinionated, something of a passive-aggressive ->-bleeped-<-, I can admit to that now in retrospect, although I would never have admitted it before. How could I when I was always right? I have moved from that extreme to a type-B personality, laid back, empathetic, patient with others, kind and loving. Mr. ->-bleeped-<- is gone forever and is not being missed.
Am I going to regret admitting that, given some of the other context in this thread, your post has me ever so slightly worried that post-transition I might wind up being a mirror image of this? There
might have been a brief time, in my mid-teens, before I left Mormonism, where I might have fit the first part of this description... but I think that's unlikely. I think it might have some relevance to why I have delayed and struggled against transition in the ways that I have... at heart, I am so aware right now, thanks to way too much therapy and navel gazing, that what drives me to transition is the dysphoria I feel about my physical body... I have managed to arrange my life in general so that most of the time I'm fairly sure most others see me as the second phase personality you described.
I don't seriously think I would shift in this way, once the shackles of the body were out of my way and I felt more free to be some new me. But it would really suck, at least to the me now, if something like that were to happen.
If there's a legit fear here, it may have to do with my feeling that I've often tended to repress some things lurking in the depths, because my strategies for managing my dysphoria were so much about being the best kind of woman I could be, even if no one quite saw me that way, though I'm not really sure they don't see me... there have been hints and clues that I could at least interpret as people wondering "Why doesn't she just transition already" -- some going back to some of my earliest contacts with transwomen my own age or near it, who were more direct and resolute in doing what I mostly dreamed of at the time, and more than a few of those chided me for my delaying tactics. Is it that I fear becoming a female Hitler or entrepreneur???
Quote from: Elspeth on February 10, 2013, 10:09:47 PM
Am I going to regret admitting that, given some of the other context in this thread, your post has me ever so slightly worried that post-transition I might wind up being a mirror image of this? There might have been a brief time, in my mid-teens, before I left Mormonism, where I might have fit the first part of this description... but I think that's unlikely. I think it might have some relevance to why I have delayed and struggled against transition in the ways that I have... at heart, I am so aware right now, thanks to way too much therapy and navel gazing, that what drives me to transition is the dysphoria I feel about my physical body... I have managed to arrange my life in general so that most of the time I'm fairly sure most others see me as the second phase personality you described.
I don't seriously think I would shift in this way, once the shackles of the body were out of my way and I felt more free to be some new me. But it would really suck, at least to the me now, if something like that were to happen.
If there's a legit fear here, it may have to do with my feeling that I've often tended to repress some things lurking in the depths, because my strategies for managing my dysphoria were so much about being the best kind of woman I could be, even if no one quite saw me that way, though I'm not really sure they don't see me... there have been hints and clues that I could at least interpret as people wondering "Why doesn't she just transition already" -- some going back to some of my earliest contacts with transwomen my own age or near it, who were more direct and resolute in doing what I mostly dreamed of at the time, and more than a few of those chided me for my delaying tactics. Is it that I fear becoming a female Hitler or entrepreneur???
Well let me tell you my experience as a non-type A, empathetic, caring person pre-transition, and that is that I stayed pretty much the same afterward. Maybe I'm a little moreso on all those traits, but it's hard to tell. It's like I could say I'm more prone to cry post-estrogen, but that's only 'cause I cry when I'm happy too now.
I don't think you have anything to worry about :).
Quote from: Jen on February 10, 2013, 10:17:31 PM
Well let me tell you my experience as a non-type A, empathetic, caring person pre-transition, and that is that I stayed pretty much the same afterward. Maybe I'm a little moreso on all those traits, but it's hard to tell. It's like I could say I'm more prone to cry post-estrogen, but that's only 'cause I cry when I'm happy too now.
I don't think you have anything to worry about :).
I hope you're right... this is certainly more consistent with where I envision myself going, if/when I manage to sort out the practical details of getting there. But like a recent poster in some other threads, I do tend to worry about some things way more than is good for me... often fairly strange or seemingly silly things.
Somethings have changed. I tend to be way more patient with people now and definitely more forgiving. I also like animals a lot more and care more about my appearance. The anger and hate for the world in general is gone. I did drop some "masculine hobbies" that I had before due to just losing interest, but I think some of that is due to my dad not being around anymore and so the need to please him is gone. I'm still a little shy, but not as bad. I still find making friends to be difficult for me and I still lack confidence in myself. But overall, I am happier with my life than I was before. I'm sure there are other differences that I am not thinking of right now, but they are likely minor ones.
As usual, it seems I'm an oddity..
Apart from a lack of soul crushing depression, I'm much the same person I've always been. Sure, I'm happier and I no longer take hiding as an option rather than attend a social event, but I'm still much the same person..
Kia Ora,
Personality as in the combination of emotional, attitudinal, and behavioural response patterns of an individual.
Yes, I've changed post transition, but I feel it is a combination of things, like aging "Age comes with wisdom-but wisdom doesn't always come with age" ;) and interaction with society-them now seeing and treating me as my 'correct' gender,I automatically react differently... However one key shift came from my involvement with Buddhist psychology the more I understood it the more my outlook on life changed.... I am a lot more laid back [in fact if I was any more laid back I'd be lying down]...
To sum it all up........
Before transition chop wood and fetch water after transition chop wood and fetch water [but with a big grin on my face] ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on February 10, 2013, 10:39:39 PM
As usual, it seems I'm an oddity..
Apart from a lack of soul crushing depression, I'm much the same person I've always been. Sure, I'm happier and I no longer take hiding as an option rather than attend a social event, but I'm still much the same person..
You may still change more. I know I have over the nine years of my transition so far. Although I am not how much of it is due to growing older and how much is due to transition itself except for the happier part.
Quote from: crazy at the coast on February 10, 2013, 10:50:06 PM
You may still change more. I know I have over the nine years of my transition so far. Although I am not how much of it is due to growing older and how much is due to transition itself except for the happier part.
In the past week or so, I've realised I've come full circle.. I am once again the happy person I was in my teens, before the spectre of GID became all pervasive. I'm even looking at getting in to the same kind of work I was thinking of back then. And in so many other ways, I've again become who I was.. It's somewhat of a conundrum, but one I'm happy to live with. :)
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on February 10, 2013, 10:39:39 PM
As usual, it seems I'm an oddity..
Apart from a lack of soul crushing depression, I'm much the same person I've always been. Sure, I'm happier and I no longer take hiding as an option rather than attend a social event, but I'm still much the same person..
I often feel odd in the community too.
I went to a creative writing workshop this past weekend. As a youngin' I wrote short stories and one unpublished novel. However, I hadn't really tried writing fiction in over a decade. As I sat there I felt like I was tring to pick my growing up where I left off and it didn't matter to me I looked like a boy when I last expressed interest in writing.
There's still so much about me I don't know after all. But I'm free to learn now as I am also free to go out and socialize, instead of be a hermit.
Quote from: Misato33 on February 10, 2013, 11:31:42 PM
I went to a creative writing workshop this past weekend. As a youngin' I wrote short stories and one unpublished novel. However, I hadn't really tried writing fiction in over a decade. As I sat there I felt like I was tring to pick my growing up where I left off and it didn't matter to me I looked like a boy when I last expressed interest in writing.
If you haven't read it, you might want to check out Tillie Olsen's book,
Silences. It was more or less the only required reading for students in Oberlin's Creative Writing Program when I was a student there, and I think it has a special resonance for trans writers. At least it had one for me, and unfortunately I could not really convey how important it was to me to my therapist, which was one of the big clues that he was really very wrong for me.
I don't know how much I've actually changed, but how I am in relation to society has changed a lot. Like before I was unconventional and aggressive and progressive and artistic and whatever, and lol now I'm just kind of a wuss. Not noticeable or interesting, and definitely a little suspect. It's not worse, just different. Takes getting used to.
yes but it's not as simple as that... I transitioned years ago now. Some of my friends mentioned this how they struggle to link me pre-transition to myself now. Several friends have expressed the sentiment.
From my flatmate Caroline who's known me for nearly 8 years now.
"Martin just went away one day... then sometime after that I met a girl called Alice"
I know what they mean... When I think back to my male self and his personality it's just that, memories. I'm a different person now because I'm dynamic I grow and now I'm scarcely even related to that lost desperate confused girl pretending to be a boy who was about to set out on a massive voyage.
I'm older tougher more crazy and way more fearless.