Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Kia Ora,

I know this topic has been around a few times, but still, it good to air it out again...

So does RLE serve a beneficial purpose ?

Or is it just another unnecessary hurdle to make the trans-person's life even more difficult ?

Note: Real Life Experience =RLE What most surgeon's and mental health professionals require before you have genital surgery...

Metta Zenda :)

Actually I think it is very important.  20 Plus years ago I tried to transition, but I went back into the closet.  I mentally was not ready to face the world as me.  Now 20 years later, I am more than ready.  And in fact have been for the last 5 years.

JMHO

Quote from: Kuan Yin on April 01, 2013, 10:11:31 PM
Kia Ora,

I know this topic has been around a few times, but still, it good to air it out again...

So does RLE serve a beneficial purpose ?

Or is it just another unnecessary hurdle to make the trans-person's life even more difficult ?

Note: Real Life Experience =RLE What most surgeon's and mental health professionals require before you have genital surgery...

Metta Zenda :)

it may just be me but i did not feel it was that important. i mean i knew who i was and even when i tried running from it i still knew. so i dove right in the first real chance i had to transition and i did it fast without all the doctors notes.

Maybe I am weird, but to me there is no such thing as RLE. As soon as I could I went full time and haven't looked back. Even if I had had $25000 on hand and there was no such thing as the Standards of Care, I wouldnt have wanted to modify my genitals first. Thats putting the parts before the wholeness.
I can understand it was awful in the olden times when you had to be full time for a year before getting HRT. The result of the old rule was a lot of self medication.
But today RLE only affects SRS/bottom surgery. Anyone who thinks they need a vagina to start living as a woman has it all backwards imho.
Live now, and correct your anatomy when you can if you can and if you really need to.

Quote from: Tristan on April 01, 2013, 11:13:40 PM
it may just be me but i did not feel it was that important. i mean i knew who i was and even when i tried running from it i still knew. so i dove right in the first real chance i had to transition and i did it fast without all the doctors notes.

Kia Ora Tristan,

How long were you living as "Tristan" in the eyes of the general public before having surgery ?

Metta Zenda :)

Kia Ora,

This is specifically for those members who don't feel RLE is necessary... If you say you already feel comfortable, confident and more than able to 'cope' in society as a woman/man... What possible harm could it do ?

I'm just trying to find out what detrimental effect it could possible have on a trans-person's mental and physical well-being...

Metta Zenda :)

I used to think it was kind of pointless to have to do RLE before HRT, but since they've changed the regulations... The only case I can think of where it might be kind of hard to pull off would be for an FTM with a large chest. I think you need at least six months of RLE and a letter from a therapist for top surgery, but I'm not sure. I haven't looked into surgery much yet. Overall I think a reasonable amount of RLE should be required before any major surgery is performed, just to make sure that person is ready to make such a drastic, permanent change.

I think it's more important to have realistic expectations before undertaking any medical treatment that is irreversible. So-called RLE is one way to get a reality check but I don't think it is good at sorting those who should from those who shouldn't. A lot of people have difficulty in legal changes (on a world-wide view) and that shouldn't be used against them. And on the other hand there will always be a certain number of people who thought surgery was a magic cure to something that transition can't fix.

I found it useful and affirming. OK I was on HRT and it was eventually kind to me, but I found that my interpersonal skills and daily relationships with society were different to what I had thought, well I hadn't thought about them to be honest.
So my experience as 'having' to be me was a time that I enjoyed and learned from.

I am aware of several people who decide that living their gender is not for them, for many reasons, I think finding that out before you commit to body altering, expensive and irreversible treatment is a good thing.

I'm not sure if I regarded it as RLE or a test drive. I also did not regard it as part of 'gate-keeping' I regarded it as making sure. I was, I am.

But I suspect that those who found it easy will have a different perspective to those who didn't.

For surgery, I can definitely see why the RLE is seriously important. It's a necessary step to separate fantasy from reality. Otherwise, there would be quite a few people who would do it on a whim, suddenly realize that the reality is WAY different from the fantasy, and realize that they made a terrible mistake too late.

In regards to HRT, though... well, let's just say that if RLE was required before that, I would NEVER have transitioned in the first place. It took me a good two and a half months of hormones before I finally felt comfortable enough with myself to go out in public as a girl for the first time. If RLE was required first, basically exposing an unpassable person to a world of stares and snickers, I NEVER would have been able to do it. Hell, I only started HRT in the first place because it was so easy to get started on. I wasn't 100% sure that I even was transsexual when I started. I just had hunches, and personal stories to compare to others who had made the jump successfully, to go off of. Hormones were the thing that sealed the deal for me. Suddenly, it was like the whole world just lit up in an unbelievable fireworks display, and suddenly everything made sense, and suddenly for the first time I felt that "sense of self," and that feeling that the thoughts in my head were finally right, and I finally knew for 100% sure that I really was transsexual, and really did want to transition fully. I didn't know before that. And so now because I was indeed able to have such open access to HRT meds, I have now gone the official route, and gone to therapy, and gone to official medical supervision, and am now completely 100% sure of who I am. Before doing my little "trial," I did not know, nor do I even think it would have been possible for me to know.

One of the good things about hormones, is that the mental effects begin appearing very quickly, and yet none of the changes really start becoming permanent until about the 2-3 month mark. So there is a BIG buffer zone in the middle where those who have made a mistake can realize that they have made a mistake, and go off of them with pretty much no permanent damage done. Unlike surgery, where once it's happened, that's it. There is no chance for second-guessing, and no chance to be unsure about it, because once it's done it's done, and you're going to spend the rest of your life unhappy if it was a mistake. So making sure that someone is a prime candidate for surgery, and various "gatekeeping" procedures, are VERY important. Hormones, not so much. If someone's transsexual desires suddenly vanish after starting hormones, and they realize it's not what they wanted, so be it. They stop taking them, go on with their lives, and no harm done. If the same thing were to happen after SRS, though, tough luck. You're stuck with it. You're never going to have your original body back no matter what.

That's my opinion at least. And again, I'm probably biased because I DEFINITELY did not do a RLE prior to beginning hormones, and I'm frankly glad that I didn't have to. It would have discouraged me more than anything, and I might never have found my true self.

To my seeing, RLE isn't a step to the goal. It IS the goal.

To spend every waking hour being seen as a woman by others and seeing myself as one.

RLE without hormones and electroysis is cruel and unusual punishment

I am living my real life already :3 and on hormones and happy without prior RLE.  I need to do "RLE" for surgury but thats ok really, I will already be living as a woman so it won't be much more than a formality.

My problem with RLE is some therapist expect you to live by their rules and thats not reality.

Kia Ora,

And thanks for your responses so far...

I can fully understand how difficult the RLE could be without  prior use of HRT, however I'm wondering if those who do have access to HRT prior to having surgery, still don't see why they must living full time 24/7/365 prior to surgery...

However in saying this, I know in many instances the problem lies with them not being able to change legal documents, which can restrict their chances of employment...

I guess it's a catch 22 dilemma...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on April 01, 2013, 10:18:53 PM
Actually I think it is very important.  20 Plus years ago I tried to transition, but I went back into the closet.  I mentally was not ready to face the world as me.  Now 20 years later, I am more than ready.  And in fact have been for the last 5 years.

JMHO

+1

In my case it was 30+ years ago and tried twice. There is a current active thread on de-transitioning https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,138313.0/topicseen.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,138313.0/topicseen.html) as well as others. I sure think it matters.

Dropping back a few steps, I researched about being trans since I was 12. Twice experimented with transitioning. Been on/off HRT several times over 30 years. Plus am married to a MTF whom I've had a relationship with for well over 30 years. So I kinda had a handle on this stuff. Yet, I was floored going to my first TG support group meeting a few years ago.

I think its certainly important but not if you're unpassable. How can you live the experience in the gender you want when you cant be recognised for what you are? HRT alone will not be enough for me as my body is unpassable. The only way I can go RLE is to have top surgery, otherwise its impossible for me to do. I've been living the RLE my entire life, always worn these clothes and everything else but I cant properly live when the wrong name and pronouns are used constantly. I assume they would allow HRT and top surgery to happen before expecting me to go RLE before bottom surgery as its not possible for me to any other way. I havent had my initial meeting yet so I dont know when HRT could start but I'll do it as soon as they let me as well as the surgery. Hoping the surgery can happen quickly followed with T so I can then be seen for what I really am and do the year of RLE as a requirement of bottom surgery if thats still insisted upon. In my case there is no chance at all of me 'regretting' the decision to go all the way with surgery. Known my entire life I needed all this and thats not going to change so if I can get them to hurry up about it I will do so. Maybe if they see the case is bad enough to warrant surgery to happen sooner they may be able to do so, I really dont know yet

I'm sorry but part of me is reading this thread and shaking my head in disbelief.

So RLE is not really that important?

So what? A woman is boobs, smooth skin, hormones and a p*ssy? Is this what some people here think a woman amounts to? And what of a man? A flat chest and a dick?

And what, some of you seriously think you just have to pay for this stuff and that entitles you to equal social acceptance on a par with a ciswoman and a cisman?

Really?

And you think that you can just walk into some doctor's office claiming to be female (or male) and get by without any RLE?

I admit that being trans places you at a disadvantage because you have to prove your gender when nobody else is challenged for their gender, but still. Life isn't always fair.

But you know nobody gets to be born a woman, or a man for that matter. Mothers give birth to girls and boys and both have to go through a lengthy process of socialization and living to become acceptable as men and women.

That's how the world works.

Therefore please excuse me but RLE is perhaps the most important part of your transition. How else are you going to pick up all those social skills? By reading a glossy magazine? By asking questions on this forum?

To flippantly dismiss RLE as unnecessary is somewhat insulting if not downright offensive not just to all the trans out there who make the effort through RLE to socialize themselves, it's also downright insulting and rude to ciswomen. Think about it. You're basically telling them that their life experience, their intelligence and their character isn't that important. Well not as important as their appearance, their boobs, and what exists between their legs.

Is it therefore any wonder that some ciswomen feel offended by transwomen? What a great way to fuel the arguments of the radical feminists, not to mention the prejudices of others.

But hey, don't worry about it. Not your problem if you're not that into RLE is it?

Next time you go to see your doc or your specialist or whoever just please stop and think for a moment as to why they give you the benefit of the doubt and aren't regarding you as some sort of sexual deviant.

Please. Think about it.

Quote from: Kuan Yin on April 02, 2013, 03:01:31 PM
Kia Ora,

And thanks for your responses so far...

I can fully understand how difficult the RLE could be without  prior use of HRT, however I'm wondering if those who do have access to HRT prior to having surgery, still don't see why they must living full time 24/7/365 prior to surgery...

However in saying this, I know in many instances the problem lies with them not being able to change legal documents, which can restrict their chances of employment...

I guess it's a catch 22 dilemma...

Metta Zenda :)

HRT has nothing to do with RLE. Many do RLE without hormones. Just as many do hormones without RLE.

Most of the fulltime transitioners in my group take of of legal documents long before surgery. All have transitioned on the job. Of course a lot depends on where you live and what legal protections, if any, you have.

At the end of the day it is not what is between our legs that makes you a woman, it is what is between your ears. After a lifetime of living as one gender, I cannot see how you can be absolutely sure that the other is the answer to what troubles your heart without trying it first.

StellaB, what is male/female socialization?

If a male was socialize to be a female, does that make him female. Also can the other way for female be said the same as well.

I don't exactly socialize as a female, but certainly do not think of myself as a male. Am I a dude?

Just a year ago back in February I began my RLE that continued until May.

The Number One thing I took from it was, even as a known transwoman, I could function in my day to day life.  Going to class, visiting the TA, going grocery shopping.  I never held, and still don't hold, any hope that HRT will feminize me all that much.  So finding out I could live, on the whole easier than I was living as a man, was crucial to my going full time.

I may never pass well, but my RLE taught me that's okay.  My RLE has then left me free to be me no matter what HRT does or doesn't do.  So while I do not agree with the old rules of needing to be full time before HRT, I do think it's important to get out there and do things to prove to yourself you can function in your new gender role before you do anything that has irreversible consequences.

Well, StellaB, I understand what you're saying, but I think it's different for everyone. In my case, so much of my dysphoria is physical that I really do feel like HRT and the physical changes are even more important to me.

I didn't even consider transitioning until I found out about HRT. And that is pretty much the prime reason that I wanted to do it... so that I could finally be happy with my body. So that I could have an actual shape, and so that I could be hairless again, and have smooth skin, and actually have the chance to look cute instead of bulky and masculine and gross. On the social front, I did have problems with the social role of being perceived as male, but nowhere near as many problems as with LOOKING male. And honestly, I'm at the point where my dysphoria is pretty much completely gone already, because even though I haven't fully transitioned yet, for the first time ever I'm becoming happy with my body. And that was my primary source of discomfort.

So for me, these physical things really are just as important than the social things that RLE provides. I know for a fact that I would want these physical changes even if I wasn't transitioning at all. While if I did have access to the social transition but didn't have access to the physical transition of HRT, I seriously don't know if I'd do it, because my dysphoria is way more physical than social. So... man, it feels shallow to say this, but the physical changes really are a big deal to me. I feel like I want to be a woman physically more than I want to be one socially. And again, I'm sorry if that makes me shallow or anything, but I really do feel that way. And there are a lot of people out there who really aren't that feminine behaviorally, and are just fine being genderqueer or androgynous or some in-between state, but they DEFINITELY want a female body physically. So honestly, I really do believe that RLE should not be a universal rule. If one's primary goal is to be accepted as a woman socially, then of course it is important... the most important step of all. And it will be an important step for me too. But to many, the physical really does transcend the social. Everyone is different. We all want different things. And developing a set of rigid rules that must be followed no matter what, and a list of hoops that everyone must jump through or else, while helpful to the vast majority, is grossly unfair to those who fall outside of the "norms," specifically the bigender and genderqueer communities.

And again, I'm glad that RLE is generally not required prior to hormones, because otherwise I might never have had the courage to actually do it, and I might never have found my true self.

Kia Ora,

I guess I should make it a bit clearer...When I normally think of RLE I tend to associate it with being already on HRT and doing the RLE as a  prerequisite to surgery, but it's been pointed out, there are some professionals who advocate RLE prior to HRT...

I just can't get my head around why a trans-person, would want to rush into having major surgery, without actually testing the waters first, ie the RLE...No doubt they have their reasons and part of the reason for this thread is to find out why they would want to do such a thing...I'm not judging, just curious...

When I transitioned there was no gate keeper as such, there was no deadline for me to go full time, I had already changed my name and I didn't intend to have surgery, so no RLE...However after around 4 and half years full time, I had the good fortune to be selected for government funded surgery and part of the criteria was having to do the RLE, which in my case was 'irrelevant'...

The way I see it, all the RLE is. is just to see if one is 'truly' comfortable in their new role, "mentally and physically"   

Also please note: Opinions are just that 'opinions' and we all have a right to them...

Metta Zenda :)

Carrie has gone and made me think I need to amend my post because I think I had some blinders on when I wrote it.

Indeed, those who don't have a social emphasis wouldn't really fall under to what I had to say.  I think it does apply to those paths like mine where there was a lot of fog and little certainty.

I'm just concerned about people who look to HRT to be some kind of panacea.  Or those who can't get out and live their life yet because they need to address this or that about their appearance.  Oooh, I'm getting groggy so I don't know how much sense I can make this.  So, in short, I'm afraid of that constantly moving goal post.  First they'll be comfortable when they start HRT, then improving the voice, then focusing on FFS, then it becomes something else new before they'll really be comfortable.  I think my RLE set me free from that risk and really helped enable me to start living my life.  It's nice.  I just want others waiting in the wings to have the experience too.

Quote from: Kuan Yin on April 02, 2013, 10:27:27 PM
Kia Ora,

I guess I should make it a bit clearer..   

Also please note: Opinions are just that 'opinions' and we all have a right to them...

Metta Zenda :)

It's okay, agreed. I wasn't sure where you stood on the issue and I actually have similar feelings to you.

I was just voicing an opinion too, but it's also important to remember that I'm in a somewhat privileged position here in London.

I'm a strong advocate of better support for trans people when transitioning and going through RLE because I feel it would make such a difference and allow more people perhaps more opportunity.

I'm also aware that in most cases it isn't that the trans person doesn't want to go through RLE, it's more that they can't or don't have enough opportunities.

But I just felt that I would throw the opinion out there because it is an opinion and something perhaps worth considering. Sometimes disagreement leads to a learning experience.

Warmest wishes.

Misato, understandably so. I suppose I am only able to make the post that I did because I was of a very sound mind when I decided to start HRT, and I was pretty much 100% sure that my gender issues were my only issue. But again, I definitely see where you're coming from. Some do think that HRT and SRS will solve everything, when in reality they won't, because the problem goes much deeper than that, and is about self-acceptance more than actual need for change. So yeah, I guess a good umbrella rule would just be to go to therapy, and keep some guidance along the way to make sure that what you're doing really is the correct thing to help you, and go from there.

And I'll admit, going out in public for the first time really is one of the things that sealed the deal for me, and made me realize that I was finally feeling completely cured. Because after that, I no longer had to worry about whether any other changes with HRT or the voice or anything would happen, because I was pretty much there already. But again, without HRT, without those physical changes, without that boost in confidence in my "girl mode" and that sudden sense of actually starting to like myself for the first time, I never would have been able to get myself to that point in the first place. So it really is a confusing thing. I don't know what to think anymore. I wouldn't be where I am now without both 2 months of HRT changes plus the public experience that finally came as a result. So, Yin, Yang, Sunrise, Sunset. I wouldn't have had one without the other.

You know, honestly, now I'm starting to change my mind. I didn't realize just how much my public experience helped me until I've been thinking about it just now. Before then, the thought of HRT not doing enough was mortifying, and I got into some serious depressive bouts of uncertainty over it, where now it's not as big of a deal because I know I can go out in public without stares already, so I'm much more able to relax and just go with the flow.

Whatever... I don't know what to think anymore. Darned multi-sided arguments where the counter-points are completely valid and make perfect sense... :P

Quote from: Kuan Yin on April 01, 2013, 11:50:56 PM
Kia Ora Tristan,

How long were you living as "Tristan" in the eyes of the general public before having surgery ?

Metta Zenda :)

I spent the majority of high school as a girl and it caused so many issues once my patents found out and the school started treating me bad. Ended up in military style boot camp for boys but as soon as university started and I was free for good my total transition took almost 6 months

Oh and as far as rle for surgery goes I said the heck with it cuz I'm a girl and I like boys haha. So seeing as my exit is not ever going to be open for business I wanted that classic muff so I could enjoy boys. I was not about to let any dobtor tell me what I could do with my body and when. I was like I want it so I can have sex ASAP! Outta my way doctors

Quote from: Tristan on April 02, 2013, 11:34:38 PM
I spent the majority of high school as a girl and it caused so many issues once my patents found out and the school started treating me bad. Ended up in military style boot camp for boys but as soon as university started and I was free for good my total transition took almost 6 months

Quote from: Tristan on April 02, 2013, 11:34:38 PM
I spent the majority of high school as a girl and it caused so many issues once my patents found out and the school started treating me bad. Ended up in military style boot camp for boys but as soon as university started and I was free for good my total transition took almost 6 months

Kia Ora Tristan,

Thanks for responding to my question...

I guess you were one of the lucky ones whom from a young age didn't hide who you were, so the RLE was not such a big deal...

Metta Zenda :)

To me RLE is just something for the profesionals (I.E. surgeon,therapist,endos) for the sake of their paperwork  ::) I never really believed in the term Real Life Experience  cause it was always phrased in such a way as it seamed it was a test.

and to me I didn't understand how I could participate in a test when I was clearly a girl and nothing else. I dont know a test to me meant it was something you would do and be done with, and I didnt see how you could basically live your life as a girl and than be done it was confusing to me ???.
I just started living my life as who I was and never looked back, I felt I couldnt as it didnt feel right.

I don't consider RLE as a test anyway. Actually I was so eager to present as my desired gender that I went into full time at a very early stage with no one's prompt. Is it RLE what I have experienced? Maybe. But in my opinion it is only the beginning of a new stage of life. I don't need to prove anything by showing it to anyone.

I don't really need RLE records, since I will not have surgery in Australia. In Thailand or China, no one will seriously check evidences for RLE. The only reason why I go into full time is that I wish so much to live as a woman and to be recognized as a woman.

Yeah people always knew and figured it out with me rather early so I just said the heck with it and be myself. It was tough and all but worth it and all the troubles

Kia Ora,

Real Life Experience for some, can at times be a 'testing' experience.... and that folks, is what it's all about !

Passing the comfortability test, as nothing to do with 'passing/blending in , it's all about how one will cope with the change in life style and the reaction from the wider community...It gives one a chance to iron out the bumps in the road, and if necessary develop coping strategies....   

Metta Zenda :)

It's not so much a test, in my way of thinking, as that time when you figure out if you can take what the world has to give you. But let's be honest about the name. I don't see what I did was RLE so much as the moment I stopped trying to pass as a man and began to live authentically. All of life is "real life".

Don't think of it as a hurdle, but as an excuse to put your mask away and show the world who you are. If it should happen to make your therapist happy, bueno.

Now do I think you should do it before surgery? Yes. Some people cannot handle living without the mask. You should never run into anything that you can walk into with style.

N.J.

The old catch 22.

For myself RLE long long ago would have been easy mentally, I was a woman anyway however with a stupid beard, ugly male flat type body, voice a little too male/rough.

I tried my best but just no way for a normal RLE without help from HRT & time for changes.

Sometimes I just wished I'd been admitted/forced into a hospital/clinic for a total SRS/HRT for say 6 months then released into the world as a woman. That would have been great, so easy.

This RLE/book stuff makes me so mad! 20-30-40 years ago I tried my best for help to correct my gender. So many therapist & physicians brought out this TS book stuff. How can any one change their body without the correct HRT & then some SRS later.

Anyway opinion off my crest.

Quote from: Tristan on April 02, 2013, 11:38:44 PM
Oh and as far as rle for surgery goes I said the heck with it cuz I'm a girl and I like boys haha. So seeing as my exit is not ever going to be open for business I wanted that classic muff so I could enjoy boys. I was not about to let any dobtor tell me what I could do with my body and when. I was like I want it so I can have sex ASAP! Outta my way doctors

So blunt xD!  I am not an extremely sexual person.... but well.. i'll put it like the Dos Equis guy..


I don't always do it....
But when I do I want a vagina.

Kia Ora,

Real Life Experience is like waking from a dream-
for some this can be pleasant or nightmarish, so it would seem.

Having to get up and run life's gauntlet could fill ones heart with dread
some days you might not feel up to it, and want to stay in bed.

Or you could become excited and look forward in some way -
"Can I help you Maam/sir ? as the unknowing shop assistant makes your day.

Perhaps you're not so fortunate, and the nightmare has begun-
laughs, looks, and s->-bleeped-<-s, through this gauntlet you must run.

Bottom surgery is not going to change much, so don't think it will-
when out and about in public, what others see must fit the bill.

When starting RLE as ones true self, one must also grow tough skin-
by learning to keep the negative out and allowing the good stuff in.

I can only wish you all the best, as life's new path begins to unfold-
for it's the survival of the 'toughest', so, ask yourself "Do I fit the mould ?"

Metta Zenda :)

So when they say real life experience what all does that en-tale is that just go out in public wearing opposite gender clothes?

Quote from: misscheivous on April 05, 2013, 04:29:56 PM
So when they say real life experience what all does that en-tale is that just go out in public wearing opposite gender clothes?

Kia Ora Miss Cheivous,

RLE=living full time 24/7/365 in the gender role that you personally feel is who you truly are...In most cases this also means a name change and dressing in the style that most suit that gender...This is the somewhat legal/ mental health-professional version of what they expect...

However within this forum, it would seem it's "Different Strokes For Different Folks !" Some don't think it's necessary whilst others feel it's most important, especially since you are doing it in order to make sure you are comfortable in this role, prior to having what is considered irreversible life changing surgery...


Metta Zenda :)
 

Quote from: peky on April 05, 2013, 07:31:12 PM
"Do you fit the mould mold ?"

Kia Ora Peky,

I have no further use for the mold 'correct spelling' mould  ;)

However it was a useful backup when I was suffering from the transgender condition, fortunately I didn't have to use it though...So if you want it, you can have it, it's as good as new and half the price... ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Tristan .. Strong girl...

I just wear jeans and shirts for a while...
as i am going back to being a girl..
I am waiting for lasers to start showing the magic...
in 5 weeks doing my 5th full face pass, in the summer..
full body pass...
and continue on with that pah... if i get called a girl i do.. a boy i do..
BUT... lol always a but.. I want a full FFS package...

and i bet, all my girlie bits, that it wont matter what i wear after..
ill be taken as a girl...so is teh clothes that important? i mean dont wear
steel toed boots and plaid hunting jackets... but i bet a nice fitting dress pant and light shirt
after ffs and HRT you will always be a girl... especially if your personality is essentially feminine..

so i dont fret to much, i freak out over my laser hair removal the MOST LOLOL...
and which FFS surgeon to pick... and I suspect one day... just change my clothes and
BOOM girl...

little different path i am taking,,, after one previous transition... i know mistakes...when to do what...

In my view there is a good deal of value in doing RLE for ones own sake not just to satisfy a therapist. When you do RLE I think you tend to experience some unexpected situations which make you think about your situation and you also will face making decisions to slack off. One that comes to mind for me was when I had to do some work on my car over a period of several days and it would have been easier to slip into male mode. However I reminded myself that if I was genuine about my RLE then I needed to tackle the problem in female mode. That resulted in some wardrobe additions, loss of the wig ... so I had to present with short hair as I could not make a ponytail from my wigs, then some thought into some very basic makeup to reaffirm my feminine appearance. It's a good thing too because that's when my neighbour decided to drop in and saw me as a girl for the first time.

I also think RLE tends to bring you face to face with the inconvenience of living as a girl at times, so it's just good  real experience.

I'd officially been full time 7 months before my SRS.

There are a handful of reasons why that happened. First, I got approved early by my therapist who was biased in my favour because I blended in so seamlessly and quickly and because I had a pretty comprehensive support structure. I.e. I've never been clocked, I had no difficulty adjusting, and I lost 0% of the people in my life. Yes, I'm aware of how obscenely privileged that makes me. It also placed me in a somewhat unusual situation.

And then I was planning to move to cities, and it just made far more sense to do the surgery, recover with my family to help me and then move, rather than having to recover in a new place. And being pre-op was incredibly stressful. The dysphoria was kicking my ass and I was impatient to get rid of it and get on with my life. I felt like I'd waited far too long already. That and there was no way back for me. Beyond the fact that I lost the ability to pass as a boy after 4 months of HRT, and then I'd had facial surgery on top... I was suicidal pre-transition. It was literally transition or die trying for me, so I had nothing much to lose.

I've now been presenting myself to the world as Sarah for 21 months. I have no regrets. I figure the year of RLE is probably useful for some people. My objection is that it tends to be applied regardless of the situation of the person involved.

Like Sarah, I've got a great support structure, have had no difficulty adjusting and lost 0% of the people in my life. My therapist is open to the idea of writing my SRS letter any time I want it.

However, I seem to have taken a slightly different path to most. I came out to my closest friends and family and pretty much straight away started to change my presentation. My therapist has never seen me in 'boy mode' and at this point never will. I did dress as a guy for work for a while after that, but almost right from the time I came out, I've presented as a woman - even before hormones.

I don't know how long to consider myself as having been full-time, as I seem to have blurred the lines on that one. I do think the concept of RLE prior to surgery is a good one, as it will hopefully weed out anyone who is not ready/doesn't require surgery/isn't really trans etc. I do think the length of time should be negotiable between you and your therapist though.

I'm currently going full time and it's not always easy. I still have doubts but for the moment I'm happy and just hope things get easier. Inside I think I'm a confident girl but on the outside I don't always feel that way sadly...

One thing I notice is walking down the street I could happily be myself, relaxed and calm. I can't pass very well as I'm 6'3 - although my body is quite femanine shaped, so that's good. Just having the courage to go full time with no hormones is a big thing for me, still awaiting my appointment at the gender clinic so that could be a while.

I think it is important though, most of the reactions I got the other day weren't anything terrible - I'd really hate it if someone in the street started looking at me funny or shouted abuse... I suppose I'll have to get thicker skinned!

There are alot of masculine looking CIS women out there so as long as you take care of your "package" and can hide the adams apple most people wouldn't say anything. I haven't went out in a dress yet but I have with make up, stuffed bra, pantyhose under jeans, women's tshirt and high heels on. didn't notice anyone smirking infront of me and if they were behind me smirking I didn't notice.

^

That's great, I know it felt really comfortable and I was at ease with myself.

In my teens I was very shy and couldn't express myself but now I'm really happy and upbeat. I did manage to look a few people in the eye as I walked and that really surprised me quite alot. Maybe I should have covered the adams apple but mine isn't that bad... still there tho lol!  :angel:

Hoping to go out again sometime next week for a walk, hoping that's as positive as my last experience. Been out the back this morning, just chilling and it's ok.

I'm sure it all takes time to get used to, people stared at me when I was a boy anyway so I'm used to it.

My position would  be very close to Carrie Liz on this question. With the face I had on top of my 6'1" , trying to engage in a RLE without any prior preparation would have been totally suicidal. (Nota: Some day I'll post the before and afters)
HRT was part of the story but I took it a good deal further, also doing FFS before trying to go full time. The only precaution I took was doing my FFS in two steps, upper face first, lower face one year later so that I had time to take stock before making changes that were too radical.  Of course FFS is irreversible and my face has changed beyond belief especially since my second operation, but it is not quite as much a life changing  experience as bottom surgery.
Also, like Carrie Liz, even if I never manage to transition fully while still working, I am just so much happier with my physical presentation now compared to before when I totally hated my face in particular.
GRS is actually less important to me but is already coming up on the agenda now that I know I can evolve succesfully in society as a woman, at least in my private life. However that would have been totally impossible without first going through the above steps.
Last detail, I am absolutely convinced that HRT has changed my behaviours, helping me to socialize more easily and naturally as a woman.
To conclude, no way would I have engaged in a RLE without being reasonably passable and I have no doubt whatsover that the fact that I was, has greatly contributed to a mostly trouble free transition so far.
Donna
 

Kia Ora,

Self Confidence grows the more one expresses it, and the other thing that RLE does is to help trans-people develop theirs...Even if at first one feels that they have deliberately been thrown into the deep end of the societal judgement pool they have the choice of  'learning' to swim(develop coping mechanisms-if need be)  or sink( put it in the "Too Hard" basket and give up on their dream)...

Metta Zenda :)

My thought on it is that after FFS and Voice training with or without surgery that would be the best time to go full time. From that point I think I would pass. Going too soon would destroy my already low confidence. Afterwards those that know me hopefully would compliment me on the progress and those that don't know me would not suspect anything.

Quote from: Kuan Yin on May 21, 2013, 11:49:17 PM
Kia Ora,

Self Confidence grows the more one expresses it, and the other thing that RLE does is to help trans-people develop theirs...Even if at first one feels that they have deliberately been thrown into the deep end of the societal judgement pool they have the choice of  'learning' to swim(develop coping mechanisms-if need be)  or sink( put it in the "Too Hard" basket and give up on their dream)...

Metta Zenda :)

Hi Kuan,
When I read the above comment I can't help but think that there is something totally self-destructive about deliberately placing yourself in a position where there is a strong likelihood of sinking. Trying to be accepted as a woman when everything about you is screaming "MAN" to everyone around you is very much such a position and unless you have both very thick skin and the means to survive a long period of unemployment, I would humbly suggest that it is a position that is best avoided.
Warm regards.
Donna

P.S. I may be a coward but I far prefer to be called Madame when presenting as a guy than as Sir when presenting as a woman... ;)

Quote from: Donna Elvira on May 30, 2013, 05:33:52 PM
Hi Kuan,
When I read the above comment I can't help but think that there is something totally self-destructive about deliberately placing yourself in a position where there is a strong likelihood of sinking. Trying to be accepted as a woman when everything about you is screaming "MAN" to everyone around you is very much such a position and unless you have both very thick skin and the means to survive a long period of unemployment, I would humbly suggest that it is a position that is best avoided.
Warm regards.
Donna

P.S. I may be a coward but I far prefer to be called Madame when presenting as a guy than as Sir when presenting as a woman... ;)

I've found the quickest way to get yourself in trouble is to not give the cisgender community a chance to be cool.  Even if your history is visible or known, when you're being authentic to yourself that does seem to appeal to a lot of people and it smooths over a lot of problems.  Not to mention, what if someone came up to you and effectively said, "I assume you will discriminate against me." and it was clear they meant their words.  What would be your reaction be?

Can there be problems?  Sure, happens.  But I don't think it's self-destructive.  I think it can be self-affirming.  In addition, you get to be an example to the upcoming generation that you don't have to pass perfectly to live your life which, I hold, would help make dealing with this a little easier.

All that said I do remain glad RLE is an opt-in these days as a successful transition, I think, depends a lot on confidence and comfort.

Quote from: Donna Elvira on May 30, 2013, 05:33:52 PM
Hi Kuan,
When I read the above comment I can't help but think that there is something totally self-destructive about deliberately placing yourself in a position where there is a strong likelihood of sinking. Trying to be accepted as a woman when everything about you is screaming "MAN" to everyone around you is very much such a position and unless you have both very thick skin and the means to survive a long period of unemployment, I would humbly suggest that it is a position that is best avoided.
Warm regards.
Donna

P.S. I may be a coward but I far prefer to be called Madame when presenting as a guy than as Sir when presenting as a woman... ;)

Kia Ora Donna,

I think we may have cross wires...

When I talk about self confidence growing I'm on about every time one ventures out as their 'true self' ...And in regards to the "Real Life Experience" I'm on about 'after' one has been on HRT for a while...Not one having to go cold turkey...Mind you from what I gather some have done this with some success, Misato is a good example of this...

Back when I transitioned I didn't have to do any RLE because I was not interested in surgery, I went full time when the time was right for me to do so, I had been on HRT for around 18 months...But in saying this, the more I ventured out as "me" the more comfortable I became...And I guess this would apply to those of you who do have to do RLE...It also gives one time to iron out any bumps in the road especially when 'life changing' surgery is involved...

So in a nutshell I'm 'not' advocating cold turkey  RLE sans HRT or for that matter facial surgery if one needs it to feel more confident...

I hope this clarifies things regarding doing the RLE...

What's the weather like there ?

Metta Zenda :)

To both Misato and Kuan,
One of my last posts here before quite a long break due to work commitments was in reaction to a post by Misato, quickly amplified by quite a few others, describing the  loneliness of their situation.

To me, such posts attest to  the limits of self affirmation and while I actually agree that many people can be very sympathetic towards our authenticity and desire to be true to ourselves, I still believe that you are putting yourself in a very difficult place if you don't look the part. Sure you can use tactics like going up to people  and say,  "I assume you will discriminate against me."  which, in many  cases, will probably at least temporarily silence" the opposition" but, most of the time, I suspect  it won't get you any closer to the person you are confronting simply because it is just so... confrontational.  Based on this, people may not pick on you but you will probably still find yourself in a very lonely place. 

At the end of that day, I guess our personal decisions in this area  depend on how much we need other people. I am a very sociable person and simply could not imagine a life without the warmth and fun of interacting with others. I can understand that this need may not be so great for everyone so I'm not saying that what is right/necessary for me is right for everyone. However, it has been very comforting for me to see that none of my friends seem to be in a any way uneasy going out in public with me since I transitioned. The fact that I had been on HRT for a long time before and have also done FFS has, without any doubt, made what I am doing far easier for everyone.
Warmest best wishes to both of you.
Donna

P.S. To Kuan. The weather here today  is appalling as it has been for most of the last 7 months. Tomorrow is the 1st of June  but, yet again,  it rained all day long, never got warmer than 14°c and we are still using central heating... >:(  How about your end of the world? 

   

I lived a large part of my teens in two different worlds - pseudo-boy mode at home and girl whenever I could slip away. I did that  for years until it got too painful going back to boy mode; it was like a tease.

Living in girl mode (stealth, of course, in the 1960s!) helped me develop that part of my personality and I found I was quite different in girl mode - much  more outgoing, more at ease and natural - almost opposite to my pseudo-boy mode personality.

When the chance to transition and have SRS came along at age 24 I KNEW it was right for me and transition came easily and naturally. It was just  a matter of dropping all pretense and being ME. Without the years of dabbling in girl mode, I would never have been as certain that transition was the right thing and transition itself would have been much more scary. (RLE was a requirement for surgery in those days as well.)

The loneliness I feel of late has been largely due to the work projects I've been assigned.  I've found competence over a number of disciplines can be isolating.  And sure, I don't like the insurance situation at my current job.  But, I've got a job that allows me to pay for HRT and therapy out of my own pocket if it comes to that. On top of that just today, I had an interview with the company that's been my goal for 13 years.  That interview process even started with a e-mail to an ancient account of mine so I had to reply, "Great to hear from you! Only it's Paige now."  I've had one of the best, most fun dialogs with a recruiter since!

I also think there was NO way I would have been successful in my last semester of Grad School had I not had my RLE.  Too many stresses of trying to maintain a guy mode while working 25 hours a week and going to school full time where one of my classes was a dragon that had been haunting me for 8 years.  While RLE created some new problems for me (hello riding the #2 bus) in the end it was a stress reduction overall for me personally.

I would also note, I've sited the trans based research I did in Grad School in two recent interviews.  Once for my current job and the one today.  I believe it's been helpful.

Quote from: Donna Elvira on May 31, 2013, 01:37:04 PM
Sure you can use tactics like going up to people  and say,  "I assume you will discriminate against me."  which, in many cases, will probably at least temporarily silence" the opposition" but, most of the time, I suspect  it won't get you any closer to the person you are confronting simply because it is just so... confrontational.

I agree that it's confrontational to make that assumption.  That's why I give cisgendered people the chance to be cool. :)

I'm welcomed in my Writing Group.  By my co-workers at work.  I was welcomed in Grad School the day I showed up expressing Paige so long before HRT began. One day I showed up presenting a male and my classmates were all, "What's wrong?  Are you OK?  Where's Paige?" And most importantly I learned I could succeed in my life even with my past known.  I later learned I could be invited to the girls only events at work (lunches, girls nights out) even with my past known.

Am I glad I didn't have to go to work for my RLE in order to start HRT?  Oh yeah!  I'm grateful I could tailor my RLE to my needs.  I just do think putting myself out there and experiencing the worst case scenario and finding I could thrive and finally be happy and that I wouldn't be an epithet receptacle, that's been one of the most important steps I've taken in my transition.

All I'm trying to say, to those coming up behind me is, you can live.  Even if people can tell you're trans, cisgendered people can very often be happy to be around you.  They can be unflustered by being seen with you and will even include you in gatherings.  Hire you.  Truly, in my experience I've found the bulk of my hangups on dealing with the cisgendered during my RLE were due to the insecurities I was projecting onto them but were really my own. By accepting myself and taking that barrier down, the life rewards I've gotten just makes me want to stand on a hill screaming, "Over here!  This way!  It isn't for everyone but this path might just work for you too!" :)

Quote from: Donna Elvira on May 31, 2013, 01:37:04 PM

P.S. To Kuan. The weather here today  is appalling as it has been for most of the last 7 months. Tomorrow is the 1st of June  but, yet again,  it rained all day long, never got warmer than 14°c and we are still using central heating... >:(  How about your end of the world? 

Kia Ora Donna,

Well it's winter time here, so no more skinny dipping for me for a while, mind you some locals swim all year around... There's plenty of snow in the south island and lower north island, however where I live(Nth of the Nth Island) we don't get snow, but it still gets quite cool averaging around 16 during the day ...

I have a son living in Eastern Europe he said for a while the weather was really hot 28-30 then all of a sudden it dropped to 4...

Metta Zenda :)

I think it's important to do the RLE before SRS.I did 3 years 2 months before surgery and found full time work as a woman.Before going full time I lived in role at nights and socialised as a woman on the local LGBT scene at first to see if it could manage to keep my dysphoria away.While it was one of the happiest times of my life working as a guy and living a dual life was also very hard and I hated presenting as male even more.I self medicated HRT and did electrolysis while growing my hair out and went from a hairy masculine guy to an androgynous feminine person before going full time over a 19 month period.No way could I have managed full time without help from HRT and electrolysis first.We're all different and this worked well for me,it might not be OK for you(especially self medicating).I was lucky I only lost 1 friend and all my family were OK,I've been to 5 school reunions and often bump into people on the pool/ punk/metal/classic car and bike scene I knew and they've all been great with me.Nearly all SRS regretters didn't do a sufficient RLE from what I've read so I think it's important

I am not scared to go full time in public, my friends or family finding out, only one that worries me is the people at work.
I don't hang out with any of my friends very much at all. If they don't like it and don't want to be friends anymore, that would not be too different from how it is now. My family, while most would be unhappy and maybe disgusted by it, I truly believe eventually they would be accepted about it. My work, on the other hand, I hang out with them for 40 hours a week. Although I don't hang out with them outside of work, I consider them my best friends and would really hate any change in their view of me. The boss is gay so I am not worried about getting fired over it, but that is basically my social life.

Quote from: big kim on June 01, 2013, 04:39:33 AM
I think it's important to do the RLE before SRS.I did 3 years 2 months before surgery and found full time work as a woman.Before going full time I lived in role at nights and socialised as a woman on the local LGBT scene at first to see if it could manage to keep my dysphoria away.While it was one of the happiest times of my life working as a guy and living a dual life was also very hard and I hated presenting as male even more.I self medicated HRT and did electrolysis while growing my hair out and went from a hairy masculine guy to an androgynous feminine person before going full time over a 19 month period.No way could I have managed full time without help from HRT and electrolysis first.We're all different and this worked well for me,it might not be OK for you(especially self medicating).I was lucky I only lost 1 friend and all my family were OK,I've been to 5 school reunions and often bump into people on the pool/ punk/metal/classic car and bike scene I knew and they've all been great with me.Nearly all SRS regretters didn't do a sufficient RLE from what I've read so I think it's important

Kia Ora Kim,

That's so true...When some(a small minority I might add) first go full time it would seem a mad euphoric rush begins to engulf them, blocking out any thoughts of what the future might hold-and surgery becomes the be all and end all...

Sadly I've heard cases where cis-people have told their trans-female-friend, "Once you have had 'the' surgery-then I'll see and treat you as a female!"  which can increase the trans-female's desire for a 'rush job' surgery - unfortunately they misguidedly begin to think perhaps other cis-people will do the same...

"Prevention is better than cure!" and in this case prevention means'=longer RLE '(practice makes perfect) by fully preparing oneself (well as best as one can mentally and physically) for what's to come...

In my particular case I had no interest in surgery because I couldn't afford it...However when I found out about government funding being available, I went for it, after all I had nothing to lose, and fortunately for me my application was approved...The rest is history...After  four and half years living full time prior to having surgery(I had surgery in 2005) all the bumps in my road were well and truly smoothed out...I've never looked back...   

Metta Zenda :)

I have a very different perspective about RLE. In spite of transitioning in the US in the last few years, I was held by my providers to very restrictive interpretations of the SoC. I was effectively required to do RLE to get HRT (I was approaching two years RLE before I received an effective HRT dose, which came over 4 years after my initial HRT prescription was written - in essence, my providers saw the SoC as hard-and-fast rules when flexibility would be in my favor, but malleable guidelines when the flexibility was in favor of their desire to be more restrictive.) Further, my therapist extended the 1 year RLE requirement in multiple ways (made it 1 year since the first post-FT therapy session to be allowed to request a letter, then, after agreeing to write my letter, delayed for months on actually writing it.)

All of these factors - the additional delays and, frankly, passive-aggressive tactics by medical and mental health personnel - lead to me being in a worse mental/emotional state for dealing with GRS and long-term transition. I am presently seeking therapy because I realize that I'm dealing with a great deal of emotional trauma as a result of their actions.

I will also add that my first year of RLE went spectacularly well - I did lose some family but quickly made my peace with it and got on with my life. I transitioned while working for a public university then secured another job with a corporation, a job that was definitely "grabbing the brass ring" for my profession. According to my providers, my RLE was going "too well," though.

ETA: for clarity, I was 2 years, 1 month, and 6 days RLE when I had GCS.

Quote from: Agent_J on June 03, 2013, 04:52:18 PM
I have a very different perspective about RLE. In spite of transitioning in the US in the last few years, I was held by my providers to very restrictive interpretations of the SoC. I was effectively required to do RLE to get HRT (I was approaching two years RLE before I received an effective HRT dose, which came over 4 years after my initial HRT prescription was written - in essence, my providers saw the SoC as hard-and-fast rules when flexibility would be in my favor, but malleable guidelines when the flexibility was in favor of their desire to be more restrictive.) Further, my therapist extended the 1 year RLE requirement in multiple ways (made it 1 year since the first post-FT therapy session to be allowed to request a letter, then, after agreeing to write my letter, delayed for months on actually writing it.)

All of these factors - the additional delays and, frankly, passive-aggressive tactics by medical and mental health personnel - lead to me being in a worse mental/emotional state for dealing with GRS and long-term transition. I am presently seeking therapy because I realize that I'm dealing with a great deal of emotional trauma as a result of their actions.

I will also add that my first year of RLE went spectacularly well - I did lose some family but quickly made my peace with it and got on with my life. I transitioned while working for a public university then secured another job with a corporation, a job that was definitely "grabbing the brass ring" for my profession. According to my providers, my RLE was going "too well," though.

ETA: for clarity, I was 2 years, 1 month, and 6 days RLE when I had GCS.

Kia Ora Agent_J,

Sorry to hear about all the pain your providers put you through...Do you know if other trans-people were treated the same by them, ie made to do a long period of RLE prior to getting HRT ?

In regards to surgery and dilating(as per another thread) all I can say (from experience) is, it does get easier, so hang in there...


Metta Zenda :)

I honestly cannot say much since I have little contact with others in the region. I do know that I am not the only one to suffer the surgery letter issue; a dear friend nearly lost her surgery date due to the delays (the only reason I didn't was that I worked on securing my letters 10.5 months ahead of surgery, having some schedule limitations on when I could have it.)

Quote from: Agent_J on June 03, 2013, 05:26:56 PM
I honestly cannot say much since I have little contact with others in the region. I do know that I am not the only one to suffer the surgery letter issue; a dear friend nearly lost her surgery date due to the delays (the only reason I didn't was that I worked on securing my letters 10.5 months ahead of surgery, having some schedule limitations on when I could have it.)

Kia Ora Agent_J,

I wish you all the best with your post-op counselling...I hope you can find a therapist who 'knows' what they are doing...

Metta Zenda :)

Thank you; as do I. To date, I have seen 6 different therapists in the last few years, and all fell into one of two categories: either they supported gatekeeping or they clung to a belief that the ever-increasing restrictions I faced were necessary to ensure people didn't make mistakes and transition when they shouldn't.

Quote from: Agent_J on June 03, 2013, 05:47:12 PM
Thank you; as do I. To date, I have seen 6 different therapists in the last few years, and all fell into one of two categories: either they supported gatekeeping or they clung to a belief that the ever-increasing restrictions I faced were necessary to ensure people didn't make mistakes and transition when they shouldn't.

Kia Ora Agent_J,

The therapists you saw sound an awful lot like this guy John Randell who worked a Charring Cross Gender Clinic  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeBwniFDDK4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeBwniFDDK4)

Metta Zenda :)

I talked my therapist down from six months to three months.

But I still find it kind of unnecessary hell while in highschool :/
Not sure if I want to start or not yet or wait till I finish.

Quote from: lizubeth on June 04, 2013, 05:55:26 AM
I talked my therapist down from six months to three months.

But I still find it kind of unnecessary hell while in highschool :/
Not sure if I want to start or not yet or wait till I finish.

Kia Ora Lisbeth,

After seeing your photo in another thread, I'm sure you will breeze through the three months RLE with out HRT...Just be yourself and perhaps just dress a little more androgynous when at school...

However if you are really unsure, then perhaps just wait until you finish school, but in the mean time you still dress androgynously-this may help to easy the anxiety...Besides you're still quite young so 'biologically' another year or so won't make much difference...

Metta Zenda :)

It is archiac and one of society's rules which can be so cruel. I plan to have the RLE but not before FFS. Society can be cruel for those who dont look feminine and can cause stress and anxieties. I also think it depends on the maturity of the individual - its an irreversable decision and I can understand the need when you are under a certain age. Being a female is mental first and the physical side is only secondary point. Its so contrversial and its different from one person to another.

Quote from: StellaB on April 02, 2013, 07:58:17 PMBut you know nobody gets to be born a woman, or a man for that matter. Mothers give birth to girls and boys and both have to go through a lengthy process of socialization and living to become acceptable as men and women.

That's how the world works. Please. Think about it.

What?? I 'ave thought about it . . . Tell me, Do You Fear Males ??? and are you a Hilary Clinton Democrat??? lol

If "the world" had it's way it seems All Men Would Be Woman !!!! I do think / agree part of the problem with "femininity" today is the so-called "support groups" for women have changed RADICALLY and it's more about economic/political EQUALITY/POWER than it is about a woman's true domain which is "children & family".

And as the new, real "gatekeepers" of everything "trans" the RLE has become nothing more than a deliberate exercise in modern day usual male shaming.

Please, one cannot talk about "roles" which are, nigh We Should Be CHANGING (and not "social cis" anybody)!!!

I have been around for an awfully long time (nearly  40 years post-op) and I find the idea of RLE without hormones detestable!!!! It is like throwing someone who doesn't know how to swim into the deep end while holding an anchor.

I started hormones in my early teens, whenever I could beg, borrow, or steal them and with a little help from Mother Nature I found it easier to pass as a girl than a guy by my mid teens. I would NEVER have had the courage to present as 'my true self' otherwise!

Some (very few) changes caused by hormones are totally irreversible and it only makes sense to "start in the shallow end". If you decide to get out, the damage is minimal. If you stay, you learn to swim as you go. BUT, learning to swim IS important before you jump in with the anchor!

Quote from: Northern Jane on June 16, 2013, 06:34:05 AM
I have been around for an awfully long time (nearly  40 years post-op) and I find the idea of RLE without hormones detestable!!!!

LOL NJ yer one of "the older ones" who's truly, really "trans" apparently the rest of us just weren't authentic, serious enough about it AT ALL! ! Finding "self-meds" back then was certainly no easy matter and correct if wrong but transition was a very lonely, harrowing process indeed and notions of "RLE"s, let alone prospects of family,  just made it all that more terrifying !!! 

Found the following on my blog dated 2007 unsure from who but somewhat relevant / telling in terms of times differences . . .

Quote. . . . it is a very arrogant argument the proponents of which I have learned to totally ignore and to not even bother trying to respond to. I do not seek out the opinions and advice of the kids down the block or at work so why on earth should I worry about what they are concerned about here?

If the truth be known (since you saw fit to bring this up) I submit that quite the reverse is actually true as I for one seriously question the authenticity of a lot of the younger "information age" TS's that we see emerging today. The addiction of the Internet & the power of suggestion that it can hold at an albeit already most difficult, very impressionable age can be a great influence indeed and for somebody to perhaps suggest that we were somehow either very slow or mistaken and transitioning later in life for no other valid reason other than it is "the popular thing to do" is in my opinion both ludicrous and yet quite telling.

In other words RLE might indeed be more important today than it was proported to be back then?

I see the difference today is a lot of kids don't have intact, two parent families and rebellion from "norms" and "disrespect" for "elders" is almost standard operating procedure with  most of the family parents today being solely women.

And given albeit what 'lil experience - all positive - I've had with "shrinks, endo's and doctors" in general I think the biggest "gatekeepers" we have today Are Members Right Here @ Susans !!!

Quote from: Kiera on June 16, 2013, 07:06:11 AM
LOL NJ yer one of "the older ones" who's truly, really "trans" apparently the rest of us just weren't authentic, serious enough about it AT ALL

I certainly never intended any disrespect! It is a  tough row to hoe no matter when you face it. I simply HAD to find a way to survive.

Kia Ora,

Thanks for your 'thoughtful' comments so far...It important to explore ones feelings on certain topics that affect many trans-folk...(Even for those of us for whom the contents is no longer relevant )

I've added a poll...In respect that some members may want to express their feelings(in some way) on this somewhat 'controversial' topic, but have no wish/desire to comment on the thread ...

I think it's important to remember, we all have a right to our opinions and by expressing them (when commenting on this thread) we also acknowledge that our point of view(be it somewhat controversial or not) may be challenged in a 'respectful' matter...

Metta Zenda :)

I noticed and answered the poll. Personally, I don't see the connection of RLE to surgery, in no small part due to my own experiences and the inherently power dynamic/imbalance, both of having it extended significantly and then still regretting SRS because of how the authorities who controlled my access to surgery used (and abused) their power - in such a way that the therapy and medical conversations that could have helped me greatly, including to be happy with surgery, were impossibly without me paying the price of forever losing access to surgery.

Kia Ora Agent,

Your personal situation is somewhat unique so the whole idea of the RLE in your case was (to say the least) impractical-  not ideal and I sympathise with your plight(the unpleasant experiences you have had to endure that have lead to where you are now)...However what's done is done, this is the reality you must now overcome and start to build a more positive foundation on which to build/plan your life...

"Ones past shapes ones "present" (Where you are in life 'right' now) and ones present shapes ones future!" One can't change the past nor can one know what the future holds, but one can make preparations in the present (where one is at right 'now' ) to shape ones future in a more positive way...

This involves one of my favourite sayings "If you change the way you look at things-The things you look at change !"


The present moment is full of opportunities so don't pollute it by continually dragging up the past -

I hope that you can find the help you need to help you let the past go!

Metta Zenda :)

Are you asserting that I have no right to provide answers about such questions based on my experience? While the specifics of my experience are unique, the issues of having a gatekeeper control the permission to proceed are far more widely applicable, including that, as many I know have stated, the entire process had negative consequences.

My position is that I oppose any approach but Informed Consent.

For SRS, yes I believe so. Just to weed out people that it isn't right for.  Nothing does people who legitimately need that surgery more damage than people with SRS regret.  Public perception-wise, it's really bad.  You or I may be totally sane and be perfectly safe having that done without any hoops to jump through, but I don't want to trust everybody on Earth with that freedom, cause there be some real loopy peeps out there.

HRT on the other hand, I think fewer hoops would be nice.  It just isn't nearly so permanent and can give immediate emotional relief for some peeps, along with helping people with having a smoother, less dangerous transition.  I think that could save lives tbh.

Quote from: Jen on June 18, 2013, 05:37:55 PM
For SRS, yes I believe so. Just to weed out people that it isn't right for.  Nothing does people who legitimately need that surgery more damage than people with SRS regret.  Public perception-wise, it's really bad.

This is exactly why I have such a hard time talking about what I currently experience - severe SRS regret after having completed 2+ years of RLE. I know that speaking about it carries the risk of harming those for whom it is right.

I think based on others comments and experience's that the system is not perfect by any means, even after RLE and all the gate-keeping etc people can still have regret, however that can sometime be due to incorrect method of therapy, or mal-practice of doctors in general and their loose interpretation of guideline's.
I personally don't understand the whole RLE experience, mostly because I went at it do or die, meaning that I was going to be the proper gender or I was going to not exist anymore (suicide). I accepted the possibility of people being negative, loosing family and friends and even starting over from 0 because I viewed it as preferable to death or worse living as male, when srs took place similier decision was made, and I had surgery but what was right or worked for me should not be used as an example or as a "proof" to proper treatment and therefore shouldn't be forced on someone because what worked for me may not be ideal or work for someone else.
If anything, treatment should be tier based that is start with the less permanent treatment and go from there, hormones/RLE, than surgeries is so desired, again at the option and choice of the individual and not the doctor or therapist.

Quote from: Agent_J on June 18, 2013, 05:14:04 PM
Are you asserting that I have no right to provide answers about such questions based on my experience? While the specifics of my experience are unique, the issues of having a gatekeeper control the permission to proceed are far more widely applicable, including that, as many I know have stated, the entire process had negative consequences.

My position is that I oppose any approach but Informed Consent.

Kia Ora Agent,

No not at all...Just saying due to the incompetent nature of the mental and medical health 'professionals' you had to deal with, instead of a "Better quality of life and mental well being" (which is suppose to come after gender affirming surgery "G.A.S"), you (so it would seem) judging by your posts are  living a nightmare...

BTW I feel that it's important for the pre-opers to hear from those post-opers who have regrets, it's a reality check and the opportunity to possibly learn from their (these who now have regrets) mistakes...

Did you mention before that you would have been happy staying non-op ?

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Agent_J on June 18, 2013, 09:07:40 PM
This is exactly why I have such a hard time talking about what I currently experience - severe SRS regret after having completed 2+ years of RLE. I know that speaking about it carries the risk of harming those for whom it is right.

Wow that is tough.  Sorry to hear that :(

Agent_J, please, never be shy to post about your experiences with full honesty. And heck, please don't spare the details either on what led up to it and why you feel it was right or wrong. Because there are a LOT of pre-op trans-girls out there who are trying to figure out whether SRS is right for them or not. And for many, it really is a wrong decision. So please, by all means, post. If I'm one of the ones that it's not right for, I sure as hell would rather get as much information about the possibility beforehand rather than having regrets afterward. And if I'm one of the ones that it's right for, than seeing the differences between my story and yours will definitely help to strengthen my resolve. Hearing both sides of the story, both from those who are happy with it as well as those who have regrets, is VERY important. It's a life-altering decision that is not to be taken lightly, so I sure would like to make absolute sure that it's right before I consider it.

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 19, 2013, 12:50:34 AM
No not at all...Just saying due to the incompetent nature of the mental and medical health 'professionals' you had to deal with, instead of a "Better quality of life and mental well being" (which is suppose to come after gender affirming surgery "G.A.S"), you (so it would seem) judging by your posts are  living a nightmare...

I wouldn't say a nightmare, but it's a bad dream, at least.

Quote
Did you mention before that you would have been happy staying non-op ?

I believe I have. I never said it to my providers as they had long made it clear that option was Not Acceptable. To them, that's inherently a mistake, worse than never transitioning or detransitioning. They realized I was too happy and comfortable being me in my first year of RLE (and directly said that as the "reason" my RLE was extended - that it went "too well.")

Quote from: Agent_J on June 19, 2013, 01:11:37 PM
I wouldn't say a nightmare, but it's a bad dream, at least.

I believe I have. I never said it to my providers as they had long made it clear that option was Not Acceptable. To them, that's inherently a mistake, worse than never transitioning or detransitioning. They realized I was too happy and comfortable being me in my first year of RLE (and directly said that as the "reason" my RLE was extended - that it went "too well.")

Kia Ora Agent,

So what options do you have ?

What is it you feel  you 'need' from a counsellor ?

Is it reassurance that things will eventually work out (things will be alright) ? 

Metta Zenda :)

Guidance toward a way to be okay, and, hopefully, even happy with my post-op body, and to stop feeling that it is disfigured and revolting.