Susan's Place Transgender Resources

One thing I have hard time with is how people expect me to "be a man" since that's what they see on the outside but inside it's the complete opposite. I hate when people talk to me as "one of the guys" or group me with other men. Then there's whole aspect of what is expected of men. For example, I being the only other "male" in the house had to help lift two extremely heavy couches and I have thin arms and very little upper body strength. I struggled with feeling like I shouldn't be asked to do heavy lifting since on the inside, I am female and women shouldn't have to do such things, but also having guilt that I in a male body was complaining about lifting a heavy object when most men would do it willingly. it's very frustrating to live up to what people want me to be as man when I'm not a man. Was I in the wrong or has anyone else ever felt this way?

Most of us gals probably feel or have felt this way, thats why we are here. Similar story, never liked hanging out with the guys (or even boys in school) because I just can't relate. I share no interest in male-centric actvities, I can't dress or groom like a guy (outside of jeans and a tee shirt.) I've always liked makeup and fashion, always preferred the company and friendship of women over men. Expectations of "being a man" I think are toxic not only to us girls but to men as well.

Yeah... definitely something that drove me absolutely crazy back in the day. Pretty much word for word. Hated having to lift stuff, hated those stupid heteronormative male expectations about being a casanova, HATED people saying things like "suck it up" and "be a man," and I just wanted to scream "I'm not a man, damn it!!! I don't want to be one!"

Most of my friendships are with women too, but I do like the company of men, very much so in fact  ;), but when it's a group situation of guys being guys and they start talking about sports and girls, ect., I feel like an alien. I have no idea what to say or do.

At my job in a camp kitchen we unload the food from
Pallets ourselves...
Some of them are like 40-50 lbs
It can be stressfull....so I just had tj tell my coworkers
That I'm on hormones and I'm now got the strength of a
120 lb girl....they understood....but now tease me lol

So all is good...and most men when they look at me
They understand that I'm not like a cis male
But sometimes I think I'm so feminized they don't
Even talk to me like one of the boys.

Actually they have been around me when we talk about
Boys!!

Sorry if I am not supposed to post here(still getting used to the forum).

But, it is awesome to see that there are other people who feel the way I do :) I hate hanging out with my guy friends, think the only reason I do is because I feel kind of bad ending friendships after knowing them for most of my life.

I really love hanging out with girls, because they seem to understand me, and I can express myself around them. I really hate when people expect me to be like other guys, I don't like talking about girls, I don't like heavy lifting or any of that stuff, even though I play paintball and enjoy it, that is probably the only guy thing I like(though I hesitate because I hate hurting people). I have tried being like other guys, but I just end up not fitting in with them.

I don't think my friends and family understand this though, and if they don't, then I doubt they will understand that I have wanted to be a girl since I was like 6(don't remember exactly how old I was, so just a guess)...

Anyways, hope I helped(I love helping people by the way).

Yup, I felt the same way. I have always been pretty small and would be a little bummed out if someone asked me to do guys work. When I was hanging out with the guys I always felt pretty awkward and couldn't really relate to the things they were talking about. Now that I switched, things are fine across the board. It feels nice to almost expect a guy to help you with heavy lifting and to be stereotyped (sometimes) as a girl.

Kind of an interesting topic for me because I haven't thought about this much but it brought to mind how things have changed for me. I was always the heavy lifter in the past, but over the last half dozen years it seems that both men and women hold doors for me which may just be polite courtesy at work. Men won't let me lift or do any of the stuff I used to do and am still plenty capable of doing. I've just kind of taken it for granted and assume that it's because I'm a senior now, but oddly in many cases I am way more physically fit than a lot of men that are bending over backwards to do things for me. So I guess I'm getting a little of that R-E-S-P-E-C-T that Aretha Franklin sung about.

Quote from: so over you on June 29, 2013, 12:26:25 PM
The weirdest thing to me was people expecting me to know about cars, I didn't know the first thing about cars and my sister would ask me to help with her car... I'd just be like... YOU'RE the one who owns a car here, don't look at me ???

Oh god I hate when this happens. I can fix a flat but that is the extent of my car knowledge. Guys talk about cars ALL the time and I just get this blank look on my face I just find it the most boring subject. I have never understood it. When I bought my first car had to take my mom so I didn't get ripped off. She's tough.

That being said I can talk about baseball. But mainly with my brother. I really don't think sports are typically male at all though. Every cis girl I know (and I have been best friends with a lot) played sports growing up. Also most of them like at least one sport and get really into it. often times this is hockey, which is why I started calling it a girl's sport which pisses off my friend.

The main thing I hate about hanging out with a group of men is the sex talk. It makes me really uncomfortable. I usually just say something like "awesome" or "high five" or "you're the man." Most guys prolly think/thought I am gay.

Wow am I like the only one who can fit in with men or women. I've never really had a problem hanging out with men granted the further I go in hrt the more mysterious their behavior is to me. Which also makes them more alluring to me. I don't have a problem conversating with women either. But as far as the topic is concerned expectations don't really bother me since I've never done what was expected of me.  ;)

Quote from: Heather on June 29, 2013, 01:14:44 PM
Wow am I like the only one who can fit in with men or women.

Nope. I've always gotten along much better with women and all my best friends were women except for one or two, but I fit in with men just fine. I just don't like talking bout sex. But that could be more prudish Catholicism then anything else. I've always had a lot of friends both men and women. So you're not alone at all. I was kinda thinking the same thing.

The only time I really felt left out of male rituals was when my friends used to play frisbee and catch a couple years ago and only my one friend, who was the leader of the group and its keystone, would pass it to me. TBF, I can't throw for the life of me. He eventually outcasted me though as his other friends did not like me. But that whole group fell apart around that time. But I was in and this was for years and years like a decade. My entire 20s.

I can fit in with all women's circle too oddly. I went out bar hopping with my ex-GF and our mutual best friend with a bunch of my GF's friends from the Salon and at one point this girl came up and she was like OMG I totally keep forgetting you're a guy you fit in so well and then said you're one of the girls! Then she was like oh I'm sorry. MY GF was like don't seat it, he gets that a lot and likes it that way.

Women are more backstabby, men are more jerkish. I watch what I say around both genders.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 29, 2013, 01:25:49 PM
Nope. I've always gotten along much better with women and all my best friends were women except for one or two, but I fit in with men just fine. I just don't like talking bout sex. But that could be more prudish Catholicism then anything else. I've always had a lot of friends both men and women. So you're not alone at all. I was kinda thinking the same thing.

The only time I really felt left out of male rituals was when my friends used to play frisbee and catch a couple years ago and only my one friend, who was the leader of the group and its keystone, would pass it to me. TBF, I can't throw for the life of me. He eventually outcasted me though as his other friends did not like me. But that whole group fell apart around that time. But I was in and this was for years and years like a decade. My entire 20s.

I can fit in with all women's circle too oddly. I went out bar hopping with my ex-GF and our mutual best friend with a bunch of my GF's friends from the Salon and at one point this girl came up and she was like OMG I totally keep forgetting you're a guy you fit in so well and then said you're one of the girls! Then she was like oh I'm sorry. MY GF was like don't seat it, he gets that a lot and likes it that way.

When I was a kid I had very few friends that were boys I spent most of my time around girls. And it wasn't because I was surrounded by girls either but I did seem to fit in with the girls better I was actually friends with most of my sisters friends. But as I got to be a teenager I spent more time around the guys maybe because I was attracted to them who knows but I did spend most of my time around guys.
So I let that continue into adulthood but really I don't know if I've ever really been treated like one of the guys I get along just fine with them like when I play basketball with my friends they know I don't play basketball so they kind of treat me like a girl when I play. And for some reason my friends girlfriends always end up talking to me and telling me stuff they won't tell them. Also my guy friends never really took me out to to strip clubs or any of their other party things. Actually they never have even invited me to a bachelor party which at one point when we younger they were constantly going too.
So yeah now that I think about it have they ever treated me like one of the guys?:eusa_think: It's funny how I really thought I was good at pretending I was a guy when really I'm starting to see I suck at it! :laugh:

Quote from: Heather on June 29, 2013, 03:57:12 PM
Also my guy friends never really took me out to to strip clubs or any of their other party things. Actually they never have even invited me to a bachelor party which at one point when we younger they were constantly going too.
So yeah now that I think about it have they ever treated me like one of the guys?:eusa_think: It's funny how I really thought I was good at pretending I was a guy when really I'm starting to see I suck at it! :laugh:

I guess I'm the only one as I have been to strip clubs tons of times. I live in the Northeast though and to be honest there seems to be a lot less segregation of genders here then elsewhere, anecdotally. Because most girls I know have been to strips clubs too. I used to go to strip clubs with my GF and our friends. So strip clubs are not the best example for where I live.

And then again I also haven't had the same experience of being asked to move stuff or participate in male only behavior. In fact, I am always passed over. In fact, most of my life I have been treated like a girl. I get flowers for my birthday sometimes. I got a bouquet of roses for graduation. I once lost an arm wrestling match to a girl and she said "I still have never lost to a girl." Meaning me. Other girls tell me how they think they can kick my a**. People misgender me. I once had to prove I was a guy. The list goes on and on. Sometimes I think this is the very reason I am trans. But it's not.

Have others had this experience? I once asked my friends if it ever happened to him and he said "No it's you. You look like a dyke. The boobs aren't helping. Stop drinking milk." lol this was like three years ago. Last year my other friend straight up told me I'd be better offf as a woman. IDK. It's really confusing and this stuff used to really bother and make me want to die. I drank heavily as a result. Some people may act like this is validating and maybe it is but I assure you I did not like it and it made me feel like a freak. My ex used to say I was woman with a birth defect. Meaning penis.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 29, 2013, 04:05:38 PM
I guess I'm the only one as I have been to strip clubs tons of times. I live in the Northeast though and to be honest there seems to be a lot less segregation of genders here then elsewhere, anecdotally. Because most girls I know have been to strips clubs too. I used to go to strip clubs with my GF and our friends. So strip clubs are not the best example for where I live.

And then again I also haven't had the same experience of being asked to move stuff or participate in male only behavior. In fact, I am always passed over. In fact, most of my life I have been treated like a girl. I get flowers for my birthday sometimes. I got a bouquet of roses for graduation. I once lost an arm wrestling match to a girl and she said "I still have never lost to a girl." Meaning me. Other girls tell me how they think they can kick my a**. People misgender me. I once had to prove I was a guy. The list goes on and on. Sometimes I think this is the very reason I am trans. But it's not.

I've only been to a strip club twice and I knew right away it wasn't the right atmosphere for me so I let my friends do that without me. As far as helping people move I have helped plenty of people move when your 6'2 and built like an athlete helping people move kinda just happens and to be honest until I started hrt lifting stuff has never been a problem so helping people move was really no problem.

Quote from: Heather on June 29, 2013, 04:20:58 PM
I've only been to a strip club twice and I knew right away it wasn't the right atmosphere for me so I let my friends do that without me. As far as helping people move I have helped plenty of people move when your 6'2 and built like an athlete helping people move kinda just happens and to be honest until I started hrt lifting stuff has never been a problem so helping people move was really no problem.

Yeah I think even if you were FAAB people would ask you. I know plenty of women who are 6' and over and I'm sure people would ask them before me as I'm like 5'6-5'5 though people say I look like I'm 5'4. BTW, you're looking great and getting pretty in your avatar! I've been meaning to tell you.

UGH! Strip clubs. My inner feminist has always SCREAMED at the idea and I have never been to one.

Though this may have something to do with having three younger sisters and always being REALLY irritated by the idea that they would have less opportunities than me.

Rosie.

Gender roles in general disgust me to be honest. It's nothing but a means by which women are suppressed for the benefit of men.

And really, I've been a pretty solid blend of 'masculine' and 'feminine' since early childhood, so yeah.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 29, 2013, 04:25:31 PM
Yeah I think even if you were FAAB people would ask you. I know plenty of women who are 6' and over and I'm sure people would ask them before me as I'm like 5'6-5'5 though people say I look like I'm 5'4. BTW, you're looking great and getting pretty in your avatar! I've been meaning to tell you.

Thank you I've kinda gotten to a weird point in my transition were I can still pass as a guy but when present myself in girl mode I'm almost passing or at least I have been told that. Your pretty lucky if I was your size I doubt I would be able to pass as a man anymore either. All the photos you've posted I can't see a guy in any of them and I can't even tell your height either. So combine your feminine face and your smaller frame I doubt you'll ever be able to pass as a man ever again congrats! Wow I just went way off the subject of this thread. :laugh:

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 29, 2013, 12:51:58 PM
The main thing I hate about hanging out with a group of men is the sex talk. It makes me really uncomfortable. I usually just say something like "awesome" or "high five" or "you're the man." Most guys prolly think/thought I am gay.

Exactly...

And...
I spent a lot of time with boys in my childhood. Mostly because I have hobbies like pc gaming, cycling, electronics, science things that most of girls unfortunately doesn't like to talk about (exceptions are rare, I don't know why... ). However when there was a situation where I should show some male agresivity i.e. some fights I always failed(I simply did nothing just waited and can't do any defence)  and even cried. And I wasn't  good in any sports. My high school was a hell because of those incompatibilities.

Quote from: Heather on June 29, 2013, 05:14:18 PM
Thank you I've kinda gotten to a weird point in my transition were I can still pass as a guy but when present myself in girl mode I'm almost passing or at least I have been told that. Your pretty lucky if I was your size I doubt I would be able to pass as a man anymore either. All the photos you've posted I can't see a guy in any of them and I can't even tell your height either. So combine your feminine face and your smaller frame I doubt you'll ever be able to pass as a man ever again congrats! Wow I just went way off the subject of this thread. :laugh:

Aww thanks so much!

Quote from: Heather on June 29, 2013, 01:14:44 PM
Wow am I like the only one who can fit in with men or women. I've never really had a problem hanging out with men granted the further I go in hrt the more mysterious their behavior is to me. Which also makes them more alluring to me. I don't have a problem conversating with women either. But as far as the topic is concerned expectations don't really bother me since I've never done what was expected of me.  ;)

your not the only one. i try to help with heavy things. im not the best at it and tend to drop stuff but i still try. oh. and i can cut grass and do some car stuff too. not afraid to get a little grease under my nails. but only a little grease

Quote from: Magnolia88 on June 29, 2013, 12:26:21 AM
One thing I have hard time with is how people expect me to "be a man" since that's what they see on the outside but inside it's the complete opposite. I hate when people talk to me as "one of the guys" or group me with other men. Then there's whole aspect of what is expected of men. For example, I being the only other "male" in the house had to help lift two extremely heavy couches and I have thin arms and very little upper body strength. I struggled with feeling like I shouldn't be asked to do heavy lifting since on the inside, I am female and women shouldn't have to do such things, but also having guilt that I in a male body was complaining about lifting a heavy object when most men would do it willingly. it's very frustrating to live up to what people want me to be as man when I'm not a man. Was I in the wrong or has anyone else ever felt this way?

Don't let artificial gender roles cloud your thinking.  It is true that there is some degree of sexual dimorphism in the human species, and it generally relates to size and strength, but females just as capable as males.

So tell the lazy girls in the house to help out.

Quote from: Tristan on June 29, 2013, 06:37:02 PM
your not the only one. i try to help with heavy things. im not the best at it and tend to drop stuff but i still try. oh. and i can cut grass and do some car stuff too. not afraid to get a little grease under my nails. but only a little grease

I tend to drop things more now than I did before. And I can change the oil in my car but that was because my dad got fed up with me having him do it for me so he taught me. And since my job does require some heavy lifting I kinda have to but I think the guys at work can tell I've lost some strength so they help me lift the real heavy things now. :)

Quote from: Sarah84 on June 29, 2013, 05:27:46 PM
And I wasn't  good in any sports. My high school was a hell because of those incompatibilities.

Yeah I wasn't any good either. I was always, always picked last and I basically stopped going. The only real interests I had in high school was literature, music and smoking pot. But it wasn't all bad I hung out with a group of girls and guys and everyone was cool with everyone. But I'm pretty sure people could see stuff was up even then as one time at lunch everyone was talking about what we'd be when we grew up and my two friends (who were girls) both replied at the same time: housewife. lol don't i wish.

I was like the complete opposite I didn't play sports because they didn't want me I just choose not to. The coaches literally called my mom and begged her to make me play football. So yeah sports were not a problem with me accept basketball which I suck at!  :laugh:

I live in an area where there are pretty clear male and female roles. That is not to say that there are not people who bend those. It is more my conservative family as well as my church family. I know that there are not a lot of real female or male roles, but it is still hard for me. I think I blend alright with the male roles, but that does not mean that it is easy. I have grown up with all of this confusion. I had more female friends, that male friends. On the same not I did not have a lot of friends. I could not role with the girls well because of all of my own insecurities and then I never felt all that right with the guys either.

don't worry. i feel this way too. i feel like i am a woman but everyone is rough with me and treats me like a boy. I hate myself already and they make it worse. I weigh 50kg and im so delicate. can't they just treat me like a girl already?

heather you missed out on some sports? that sucks. and the guys should be helping you out more now because i hate to admit it but we just are not as strong as they are. Lilyyy i know what you mean. i hate it when i still see some people on my moms side of the family and they are rough with me. that stuff hurts! and not in the good way... >:-)

Quote from: Tristan on June 30, 2013, 08:08:17 AM
heather you missed out on some sports? that sucks. and the guys should be helping you out more now because i hate to admit it but we just are not as strong as they are. Lilyyy i know what you mean. i hate it when i still see some people on my moms side of the family and they are rough with me. that stuff hurts! and not in the good way... >:-)

I missed out on football I did play baseball and soccer when I was younger. But I did play football enough with friends to know having people run into me at full speed might not be something I wanted. :laugh: And besides I didn't hangout with the jocks in school in fact they used to try to pick on me. So the thought of having to spend after school time with them was not to appealing to me. But I don't feel like I missed out I got to do other stuff with my friends. And I also got to take advantage of the extra freedom that boys enjoy. My sister was not allowed to do half the stuff I did. In fact after I came out my mom told me she would put the same rules on me. Thinking that would stop me from wanting to be a girl. But I don't think I missed out at all and for some reason now I can look back on my teenage years and see it wasn't as bad as I thought it was.  :)

heather thats to funny. my dad always reminds me he stopped my sleep overs when i was 7 because he thought something was up. and as far as the rules on girls thing. yeah that totally sucks. i still remember those kinda rules. i couldnt do nothing. haha
i guess thats why i was quick to join cheer/soccer and volleyball. im sorry jocks use to pick on you in school. guys can be mean sometimes and the girls can be just as bad if not worse from always starting stuff

Quote from: Tristan on June 30, 2013, 10:15:26 AM
guys can be mean sometimes and the girls can be just as bad if not worse from always starting stuff

Yeah I witnessed how mean girls could be when I dated this one girl who wasn't popular but  she was beautiful. So I would have teenage girls coming up to me asking me why I would go out with her. Asking me how I could go out with someone so unpopular. So the girls are just as bad as the boys they just go about it a different way.

yup heather your right. high school was like the gossip game. i was so glad for University. once i became kappa kappa gamma at least i had sisters to protect me so i could just have fun :)

Quote from: Cassandra Hyacinth on June 29, 2013, 04:51:11 PM
Gender roles in general disgust me to be honest. It's nothing but a means by which women are suppressed for the benefit of men.

Uhm... I don't think that's very true. Men are victims of our mysoginistic society, probably more so than women nowadays... do you think it's in anyone's best interest to feel pressured to control their own emotions, to be expected to be financially succesful and play the role of provider, to be assertive, confident and capable of attracting the opposite gender... I kind of don't think so. Lack of masculinity in a man results in him being shunned, masculine dominant traits in a woman are seen as empowering (I'm refering to assertive self-sufficient qualities, not square jaws, that's what I mean by "masculine woman"). These really aren't the 60s where we need to fight for "women's rights", we need to fight for absolute equality and not make it a war about gender-related privileges.

wow, Mermaid. i actually COMPLETELY agree with you. i am transsexual but when i was younger (like 12-13) i always was curious and upset at gender roles. iwanted to have much more feminine gender roles but now that i'm transsexual it will mean that i have an excuse finally. i do want to be a woman for many reasons and this is one of them :)

It's easier to live as a man, period.

If a man looks raggedy he can get away with it without being chastised by both genders. Let a girl walk in a room wearing something that makes her look fat. Oh, and if a woman can't get a man in todays society, she can at least make it - but she can almost expect to have a mediocre career that IS somewhat based on looks, where men will not take her seriously and women will target her to take her down if she is better at what she does than everybody else. Of course after that is the physical issue, where it still is less safe for a female to walk around by herself, especially at night.

As a man, I could go in and interview and almost expect to walk away with a job. As a woman, I'm hoping it's a guy that thinks I'm attractive. If it's a woman, then she'll likely find a man, if it's a married man, then he'll more than likely pick the lady that his wife isn't going to be threatened by if I'm working with him on a day to day basis, if the interviewer thinks I'm unattractive, they'll probably throw my resume away just because women are suppose to uphold a standard of attractiveness.

And it's not that much easier as an attractive female. If women think you're attractive (especially those 40-50 year old women), they'll feel threatened by you. They'll look at you without a smile and be very evasive of you. Not to mention they'll plot against you. I had a "friend" tell a couple guys that I may be HIV positive (I'm not) just because she saw me as competition. I've also had a "friend" tell a guy I am trans because she liked the guy and the guy liked me. Women are ruthless.

If you're attractive in a mans world, yeah you can smile and make them do whatever. But the next cuter girl that comes in (especially if she's promiscuous), they'll flock to her and totally forget about you, and  you wont get your talking "privileges" back. Any time you talk you'll be dismissed as the not so pretty girl who is just jealous because you're not the cutest thing around.

Being a woman sucks. I wish I was a guy, because I'd rock it if I could.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PM
Being a woman sucks. I wish I was a guy, because I'd rock it if I could.

You forgot that you're expected to smile all the time and if you aren't smiling people can just outright tell you to. And men just get so close to you and feel they can just go ahead and start violating your personal space. Oh, and the dismissive attitude that you are wrong. They are right.

And I've only been doing this for like six months. But I had about zero male privilege to begin with so it is way better then that.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PM
It's easier to live as a man, period.

If a man looks raggedy he can get away with it without being chastised by both genders. Let a girl walk in a room wearing something that makes her look fat. Oh, and if a woman can't get a man in todays society, she can at least make it - but she can almost expect to have a mediocre career that IS somewhat based on looks, where men will not take her seriously and women will target her to take her down if she is better at what she does than everybody else. Of course after that is the physical issue, where it still is less safe for a female to walk around by herself, especially at night.

As a man, I could go in and interview and almost expect to walk away with a job. As a woman, I'm hoping it's a guy that thinks I'm attractive. If it's a woman, then she'll likely find a man, if it's a married man, then he'll more than likely pick the lady that his wife isn't going to be threatened by if I'm working with him on a day to day basis, if the interviewer thinks I'm unattractive, they'll probably throw my resume away just because women are suppose to uphold a standard of attractiveness.

And it's not that much easier as an attractive female. If women think you're attractive (especially those 40-50 year old women), they'll feel threatened by you. They'll look at you without a smile and be very evasive of you. Not to mention they'll plot against you. I had a "friend" tell a couple guys that I may be HIV positive (I'm not) just because she saw me as competition. I've also had a "friend" tell a guy I am trans because she liked the guy and the guy liked me. Women are ruthless.

If you're attractive in a mans world, yeah you can smile and make them do whatever. But the next cuter girl that comes in (especially if she's promiscuous), they'll flock to her and totally forget about you, and  you wont get your talking "privileges" back. Any time you talk you'll be dismissed as the not so pretty girl who is just jealous because you're not the cutest thing around.

Being a woman sucks. I wish I was a guy, because I'd rock it if I could.

Yeah all this is why I seriously debate if I should ever fully transition.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PM
It's easier to live as a man, period.

The way you start your post almost makes it seem like an impossible debate... it's discouraging to discuss anything with anyone who starts by stating that their opinion is a fact. =/

It is not, I'll give it an attempt at explaining why...

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PMIf a man looks raggedy he can get away with it without being chastised by both genders.

This is the worst arguement possible. "Men get to look like crap and nobody will say anything"... Is this really an advantage? Who seriously wants to look "raggedy"? Is that supposed to comfort anyone born in the male sex? Perhaps some appreciate it but I'm sure most men out there want to look their best and feel as desirable as their female counterparts. Being able to get away with looking bad isn't a social advantage, it's to balance things out for having a restricted wardrobe with limited clothing expression in comparison to the other sex, for being uncapable of wearing make-up without facing public ridicule, along with a lot of other factors. It simply wouldn't be fair for the same expectations regarding appearence to be equal for men and women... A woman has a pimple? She covers it up with make-up... a man has a pimple? He sucks it up or risks listening to snarky remarks for wearing make-up. I'm sure most people like to feel attractive and cover their flaws... men aren't given as much option regarding this as women are, therefore men have to be cut some slack.

Me, as a person, regardless of what gender I identify with, want to look good. Is it not fulfilling for most people to feel they are good-looking? It is a human need, not a gendered one.

I always wanted to express my own individuality and to seem pleasant to the eye; women have a lot more tools at their disposal for accomplishing this. I got shunned for waxing my legs as a teen, but the fact is that I was simply trying to be comfortable with myself. Of course that on the other side you have women that will get laughed at if their legs are hairy... my opinion? A man should be able to be as pretty as a woman if he desired to, a man should be able to get rid of every single hair on his body if that's what he aspires to, a woman should be entitled to have a forest under her arm-pits if that's what she wanted. It's basically freedom of expression. Just don't tell men "being able to look raggedy" is something to be thankful for, when most of us know how fun it is to get all dolled up. I will stress again that feeling attractive is a human need, not a gendered one, so men should groom themselves all they want if it makes them feel good and fulfilled. Men have a lot less to look forward to when it comes to pampering themselves and feeling good about themselves... Some men are okay with this, some are not; people are people, not genders. The way I see it, things come down to whether you feel good expressing femininity, masculinity or a blend of both.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PMLet a girl walk in a room wearing something that makes her look fat. Oh, and if a woman can't get a man in todays society, she can at least make it - but she can almost expect to have a mediocre career that IS somewhat based on looks, where men will not take her seriously and women will target her to take her down if she is better at what she does than everybody else.

I think that's a huge exaggeration... there are problems, but I don't think any gender is antagonized that dramatically. Have you ever wondered why women are taken "less seriously" in their workplace? It's to do with the false assumption that they're more emotional beings, whereas men are more likely to suck it up, "be men" and "man their way through it". Men inspire more confidence in workplaces, which is absurd if you ask me... Like I said, people are people, there's a lot of women who're better leaders and more competent than men at any given task and vice-versa. The thing is men are emotional creatures too and if society acknowledged that fact as much as it does with women, there'd be less gender-stereotyping and stupid assumptions being made. Now, it must be stressed that only certain profiles are capable of holding positions of leadership, because they generally involve more masculine traits, such as dominance, power, assertiveness and such. Women can and possess these traits, it's just sort of expected that men are more likely to possess them because society lives on the pathetic assumption that masculinity = men and femininity = women.

I would respect fellow co-workers regardless of their gender and try to make no assumptions of their personality, however, it's a bit of an automated process to question their seriousness if they were say, for example, parading themselves around the office in revealing clothing, which women are much more likely to get away with. I hate generalizations but, to my eyes, it's a little undeniable that women are way more free to exert their sensuality to get ahead and gain attention, whereas men tend to have to downplay themselves and rely solely on their skills. Again, I'm not saying this is commonplace or not, I'm a student and never worked in my life, but the impression I have of society as a whole is that women have the option to exploit their sensuality to get ahead way more than men do, and as such, a whole gender loses a certain amount of credibility. I think it's a defensive mechanism to respond to the way society works...

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PMAs a man, I could go in and interview and almost expect to walk away with a job. As a woman, I'm hoping it's a guy that thinks I'm attractive. If it's a woman, then she'll likely find a man, if it's a married man, then he'll more than likely pick the lady that his wife isn't going to be threatened by if I'm working with him on a day to day basis, if the interviewer thinks I'm unattractive, they'll probably throw my resume away just because women are suppose to uphold a standard of attractiveness.

To me that sounds almost dellusional and insulting to most men and women... I don't think people are hired based on what they look like, nor that whoever is hiring people for a specific job is necessarily interested in who they're hiring, that sounds almost disgusting... there's a point in life where people settle down to raise a family and don't really care what their coworkers look like as long as they're competent? I don't think high school mentalities really stick around with most individuals? People have their own relationships and won't be forever seeking to surround themselves with good-looking people, come on...

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PMAnd it's not that much easier as an attractive female. If women think you're attractive (especially those 40-50 year old women), they'll feel threatened by you. They'll look at you without a smile and be very evasive of you. Not to mention they'll plot against you. I had a "friend" tell a couple guys that I may be HIV positive (I'm not) just because she saw me as competition. I've also had a "friend" tell a guy I am trans because she liked the guy and the guy liked me. Women are ruthless.

I think it's more that people are ruthless, rather than women being ruthless... There's good and bad people in both genders, it's not strictly a problem with women. Men are just as competitive in my experience, just the modus operandi of each sex is different because of their roles in society.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PMIf you're attractive in a mans world, yeah you can smile and make them do whatever. But the next cuter girl that comes in (especially if she's promiscuous), they'll flock to her and totally forget about you, and  you wont get your talking "privileges" back. Any time you talk you'll be dismissed as the not so pretty girl who is just jealous because you're not the cutest thing around.

You're basically implying all men are whores -.- That's not been my experience... so many guys just want to settle down with one person and aren't on an everlasting chase for the perfect woman... *sigh* But whatever. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but will a guy who's in love really keep looking for other girls just because they might be more attractive than the person he loves? I don't know, maybe it happened to you or your experiences have been frustrating, but everyone has feelings, regardless if they're men or women, and that's what drives them... perhaps if someone moves away from you and onto someone else it's because there was no chemistry in the first place...

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PMBeing a woman sucks. I wish I was a guy, because I'd rock it if I could.

How about detransition? If not, I don't really think you "wish you were a guy". People (specially cis) say they wish they were the opposite sex far too frequently and far too unaware of the global picture... the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

There are gay guys, there are masculine guys, there are feminine guys, there are guys who want to be strong, there are guys who want to be next to someone strong. Some have it easier than others in our society, a "guy" is an abstract concept, because they're essentially people and being human is what's hard, not being a gender.

I'm not sure if my views are a bit radical, I hope not... but I do not see myself as a "woman" or a "man", I am not a box, I see myself as a person with feminine tendencies that must live as a woman to be able to fit the molds of society and coexist at peace with everyone else without receiving weird looks. I think it's a mistake to see people as women or men, because everyone is unique and nobody should make assumptions about what satisfies anyone or grants them fulfillment. I don't know how one can feel they are a "gender", I just feel me.

I'm more comfortable as a woman, which in turn should make me one, but that's not what I'm trying to be; I feel it's too dull and empty to only aspire to becoming a gender. I think we all are a lot more than that =)

Quote from: Magnolia88 on June 29, 2013, 12:26:21 AM
One thing I have hard time with is how people expect me to "be a man" since that's what they see on the outside but inside it's the complete opposite. I hate when people talk to me as "one of the guys" or group me with other men. Then there's whole aspect of what is expected of men. For example, I being the only other "male" in the house had to help lift two extremely heavy couches and I have thin arms and very little upper body strength. I struggled with feeling like I shouldn't be asked to do heavy lifting since on the inside, I am female and women shouldn't have to do such things, but also having guilt that I in a male body was complaining about lifting a heavy object when most men would do it willingly. it's very frustrating to live up to what people want me to be as man when I'm not a man. Was I in the wrong or has anyone else ever felt this way?

I think women can lift as well as men. But there are some physiological differences that make it more difficult for women to lift heavier objects. I will lift and carry when I need to, but only according to my capacity. Men just can naturally carry more than I can!

When I was younger, I also hated being stereotyped because of my appearance. Now it is almost expected (willingly or unwillingly) that men carry first before me. I hated carrying things in the past, not because it was a chore, but it was somehow a sexual trait that wasn't obvious in my own very being!

Quote from: Mermaid on July 01, 2013, 12:45:32 AM
Being able to get away with looking bad isn't a social advantage, it's to balance things out for having a restricted wardrobe with limited clothing expression in comparison to the other sex, for being uncapable of wearing make-up without facing public ridicule, along with a lot of other factors. It simply wouldn't be fair for the same expectations regarding appearence to be equal for men and women... A woman has a pimple? She covers it up with make-up... a man has a pimple? He sucks it up or risks listening to snarky remarks for wearing make-up.

The reason men have a seriously restricted wardrobe is because the overwhelming majority of me could care less about fashion. And when there are nice clothes in a store, somethig I might wear, almost all men would scoff at wearing it. And the makeup thing too is because men don't want to. It's by choice, not design. We live in a very capitalistic country and if there were a market for what you described there would be a supplier.

Quote from: Mermaid on July 01, 2013, 12:45:32 AM

To me that sounds almost dellusional and insulting to most men and women... I don't think people are hired based on what they look like, nor that whoever is hiring people for a specific job is necessarily interested in who they're hiring, that sounds almost disgusting... there's a point in life where people settle down to raise a family and don't really care what their coworkers look like as long as they're competent? I don't think high school mentalities really stick around with most individuals? People have their own relationships and won't be forever seeking to surround themselves with good-looking people, come on...

People are most certainly hired for what thye look like in addition to skills. If you don't look right, you better be better then the best. Good looking people have it easier. This is pretty much a fact.

Quote from: Mermaid on July 01, 2013, 12:45:32 AM
The way you start your post almost makes it seem like an impossible debate... it's discouraging to discuss anything with anyone who starts by stating that their opinion is a fact. =/

It is not, I'll give it an attempt at explaining why...

This is the worst arguement possible. "Men get to look like crap and nobody will say anything"... Is this really an advantage? Who seriously wants to look "raggedy"? Is that supposed to comfort anyone born in the male sex? Perhaps some appreciate it but I'm sure most men out there want to look their best and feel as desirable as their female counterparts. Being able to get away with looking bad isn't a social advantage, it's to balance things out for having a restricted wardrobe with limited clothing expression in comparison to the other sex, for being uncapable of wearing make-up without facing public ridicule, along with a lot of other factors. It simply wouldn't be fair for the same expectations regarding appearence to be equal for men and women... A woman has a pimple? She covers it up with make-up... a man has a pimple? He sucks it up or risks listening to snarky remarks for wearing make-up. I'm sure most people like to feel attractive and cover their flaws... men aren't given as much option regarding this as women are, therefore men have to be cut some slack.

Me, as a person, regardless of what gender I identify with, want to look good. Is it not fulfilling for most people to feel they are good-looking? It is a human need, not a gendered one.

I always wanted to express my own individuality and to seem pleasant to the eye; women have a lot more tools at their disposal for accomplishing this. I got shunned for waxing my legs as a teen, but the fact is that I was simply trying to be comfortable with myself. Of course that on the other side you have women that will get laughed at if their legs are hairy... my opinion? A man should be able to be as pretty as a woman if he desired to, a man should be able to get rid of every single hair on his body if that's what he aspires to, a woman should be entitled to have a forest under her arm-pits if that's what she wanted. It's basically freedom of expression. Just don't tell men "being able to look raggedy" is something to be thankful for, when most of us know how fun it is to get all dolled up. I will stress again that feeling attractive is a human need, not a gendered one, so men should groom themselves all they want if it makes them feel good and fulfilled. Men have a lot less to look forward to when it comes to pampering themselves and feeling good about themselves... Some men are okay with this, some are not; people are people, not genders. The way I see it, things come down to whether you feel good expressing femininity, masculinity or a blend of both.

The point is, nobody cares if a guy has a pimple or a wart growing on the side of his face. If a girl does, it's cause for all sorts of self doubt. Furthermore, I'd like to offer a theory that men can't wear makeup or be feminine because it's perceived to be awkward to lower yourself to being the weaker of the sexes. Men can look and dress well, but it's not nearly expected to look great as a guy. It absolutely is expected for a girl.

I'd like to point out though, that gender expression is becoming more easier for men. It's quite alright for men to be hairless. I've never known men to get picked on for it if that's what they wanted. Now, if they went on to BRAG about it, then yes, they'll get picked on. It seems to me that as a guy, having vanity and expressing vanity is where the line is drawn.

Quote from: Mermaid on July 01, 2013, 12:45:32 AM
I think that's a huge exaggeration... there are problems, but I don't think any gender is antagonized that dramatically. Have you ever wondered why women are taken "less seriously" in their workplace? It's to do with the false assumption that they're more emotional beings, whereas men are more likely to suck it up, "be men" and "man their way through it". Men inspire more confidence in workplaces, which is absurd if you ask me... Like I said, people are people, there's a lot of women who're better leaders and more competent than men at any given task and vice-versa. The thing is men are emotional creatures too and if society acknowledged that fact as much as it does with women, there'd be less gender-stereotyping and stupid assumptions being made. Now, it must be stressed that only certain profiles are capable of holding positions of leadership, because they generally involve more masculine traits, such as dominance, power, assertiveness and such. Women can and possess these traits, it's just sort of expected that men are more likely to possess them because society lives on the pathetic assumption that masculinity = men and femininity = women.

I would respect fellow co-workers regardless of their gender and try to make no assumptions of their personality, however, it's a bit of an automated process to question their seriousness if they were say, for example, parading themselves around the office in revealing clothing, which women are much more likely to get away with. I hate generalizations but, to my eyes, it's a little undeniable that women are way more free to exert their sensuality to get ahead and gain attention, whereas men tend to have to downplay themselves and rely solely on their skills. Again, I'm not saying this is commonplace or not, I'm a student and never worked in my life, but the impression I have of society as a whole is that women have the option to exploit their sensuality to get ahead way more than men do, and as such, a whole gender loses a certain amount of credibility. I think it's a defensive mechanism to respond to the way society works...

I used to think like this - until I lived it.

BTW are you on estrogen? It DOES make you more emotional. I used to be a brick wall, until I got mad... then I'd blow up for 15 minutes and I'm back on my game. Now? I tend to worry a lot more. I tend to watch my back more. I also tend to think hard about what others say and wonder how what I do affects them. It's much harder to suck up. So we are basically picked on for our biochemistry. You list the stereotypes, they're there. They're things that we DO have to fight.

As far as displaying sexuality, that's a very fine line with women. You're likely to get away with flaunting your sexuality around men if you do it correctly. However, do it too obviously and it's a turn off. Furthermore, you can kiss them taking you seriously goodbye if that's the tact you take. Do it around women and they'll respect you MUCH less. But a man? They can make all the crass remarks they want! Let a girl talk about nasty stuff in the office... it'll ruin their reputation, whereas men get away with a simple apology and "they're just being men".

Quote from: Mermaid on July 01, 2013, 12:45:32 AM
To me that sounds almost dellusional and insulting to most men and women... I don't think people are hired based on what they look like, nor that whoever is hiring people for a specific job is necessarily interested in who they're hiring, that sounds almost disgusting... there's a point in life where people settle down to raise a family and don't really care what their coworkers look like as long as they're competent? I don't think high school mentalities really stick around with most individuals? People have their own relationships and won't be forever seeking to surround themselves with good-looking people, come on...

lol... Yeah, okay. Actually, when I was living as a male, one of my previous employers actually told me that he didn't hire an attractive looking woman because he didn't want his wife to throw a fit over it. Here's a short and interesting read on the subject: http://www.thekey2.net/blog/why_are_women_so_hard_on_other_women_at_work_106s99#.UdEmy_msjvY (http://www.thekey2.net/blog/why_are_women_so_hard_on_other_women_at_work_106s99#.UdEmy_msjvY)

Think about this: Let somebody find out your sex at work and get fired for it. Stew on that for a while and come back and tell me that looks and gender don't matter in the workplace. It's happened to me.

Quote from: Mermaid on July 01, 2013, 12:45:32 AM
I think it's more that people are ruthless, rather than women being ruthless... There's good and bad people in both genders, it's not strictly a problem with women. Men are just as competitive in my experience, just the modus operandi of each sex is different because of their roles in society.

I guess. A man is much more upfront about their intentions, that's for sure.

Quote from: Mermaid on July 01, 2013, 12:45:32 AM
You're basically implying all men are whores -.- That's not been my experience... so many guys just want to settle down with one person and aren't on an everlasting chase for the perfect woman... *sigh* But whatever. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but will a guy who's in love really keep looking for other girls just because they might be more attractive than the person he loves? I don't know, maybe it happened to you or your experiences have been frustrating, but everyone has feelings, regardless if they're men or women, and that's what drives them... perhaps if someone moves away from you and onto someone else it's because there was no chemistry in the first place...

No, I'm not implying that ALL men are whores. I'm implying that enough of them are that it makes things the way that they are for us. You're the one that said women can express their sexuality to lead men on. Why do you think that is?

Quote from: Mermaid on July 01, 2013, 12:45:32 AM
How about detransition? If not, I don't really think you "wish you were a guy". People (specially cis) say they wish they were the opposite sex far too frequently and far too unaware of the global picture... the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

There are gay guys, there are masculine guys, there are feminine guys, there are guys who want to be strong, there are guys who want to be next to someone strong. Some have it easier than others in our society, a "guy" is an abstract concept, because they're essentially people and being human is what's hard, not being a gender.

I'm not sure if my views are a bit radical, I hope not... but I do not see myself as a "woman" or a "man", I am not a box, I see myself as a person with feminine tendencies that must live as a woman to be able to fit the molds of society and coexist at peace with everyone else without receiving weird looks. I think it's a mistake to see people as women or men, because everyone is unique and nobody should make assumptions about what satisfies anyone or grants them fulfillment. I don't know how one can feel they are a "gender", I just feel me.

I'm more comfortable as a woman, which in turn should make me one, but that's not what I'm trying to be; I feel it's too dull and empty to only aspire to becoming a gender. I think we all are a lot more than that =)

LOL!! Detransition won't help, it'll make it worse. Hell, I can't even pass as a guy if I wanted to!

As you (probably) know, we are who we are. We can't help what we feel comfortable being. I spent 29 years as a male and wanted to die for a good 20 years of it. At least now I can be who I am, which is a female. That makes me never want to transition again. Being seen and lumped in with the guys is just demeaning and disgusting to me. But I do wish I was comfortable being a guy, because it IS easier. The social expectations are a lot less stressful. I think a lot of girls here just don't see it because they're either pre transition or ... hate to say it ... perhaps the outside world sees them as a guy in a dress and they're okay with that - so anything goes. Me? Every time I admit about my last position (telephony technician), people are in disbelief. Thank God I don't fix cars, because nobody would probably let me touch a tire.

Almost every woman I've ever met, whether they knew I was trans or not, told me they wish they were born a guy. At first I thought they were crazy, but about 4 months or so things started to change. I started seeing the every day crap that women go through when trying to actually compete in the workforce or in the social world a year ago. The realities started sinking in about February or so, that in exchange for it being harder to be taken seriously, being stereotyped as some frail, emotional, unstable creature that is willing to bitch somebody out because the AC is too cold, etc, we get doors held open for us and men carry heavy crap for us. Thank God I don't have a period is all I have to say...

The world as a whole sees gender. What we see is irrelevant to the difficulties we face as one gender or the other (or something inbetween). But in my honest opinion as somebody who has seen many things as purely male, and seen many things as purely female, is that living life as a female is definitely a lot more challenging than a male. Huge changes have happened over the course of a civilization, but we're still not equal yet.

Quote from: Rahel on July 01, 2013, 01:37:31 AM
I think women can lift as well as men. But there are some physiological differences that make it more difficult for women to lift heavier objects. I will lift and carry when I need to, but only according to my capacity. Men just can naturally carry more than I can!

When I was younger, I also hated being stereotyped because of my appearance. Now it is almost expected (willingly or unwillingly) that men carry first before me. I hated carrying things in the past, not because it was a chore, but it was somehow a sexual trait that wasn't obvious in my own very being!

I guarantee it's not psychological. Testosterone creates an anabolic effect in the muscles, causing them to grow faster than they would in people without testosterone. It is possible for a female to get bulk and strong etc etc, but it takes twice the strength training a male would require to get the same effect.

However, not many women are going to want to go through that, because muscles aren't cute. Go figure, right?

Quote from: Mermaid on July 01, 2013, 12:45:32 AM



To me that sounds almost dellusional and insulting to most men and women... I don't think people are hired based on what they look like, nor that whoever is hiring people for a specific job is necessarily interested in who they're hiring, that sounds almost disgusting... there's a point in life where people settle down to raise a family and don't really care what their coworkers look like as long as they're competent? I don't think high school mentalities really stick around with most individuals? People have their own relationships and won't be forever seeking to surround themselves with good-looking people, come on...

Now I read the part where you said you never have worked. But if you don't think that people including men are hired based on looks you are sadly mistaken. There has been countless studies that show how much life is easier when your attractive and that includes getting jobs. And trust me the high school mentality does stick around in a whole lot of adults. In fact I would say most people never leave that mentality. Sure as something's change but really as the old saying goes the more things change the more they stay the same.

It's true. How we look plays on if we get a interview, hired or a raise. I know I have been told before its part of the reason I got my raises

You are speaking the truth, Alainaluvsu, even if it's a little harsh.  I'm not going to add anything, because I mostly agree.  If you live in a world where being a girl is not harder than being a guy, you must be in a different universe than me.  I love being a girl, but things about it can be really difficult and infuriating.  I wouldn't be any other way, I just wish the world could be.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 30, 2013, 11:09:22 PM
It's easier to live as a man, period.

If a man looks raggedy he can get away with it without being chastised by both genders. Let a girl walk in a room wearing something that makes her look fat. Oh, and if a woman can't get a man in todays society, she can at least make it - but she can almost expect to have a mediocre career that IS somewhat based on looks, where men will not take her seriously and women will target her to take her down if she is better at what she does than everybody else.
As a man, I could go in and interview and almost expect to walk away with a job. As a woman, I'm hoping it's a guy that thinks I'm attractive. If it's a woman, then she'll likely find a man, if it's a married man, then he'll more than likely pick the lady that his wife isn't going to be threatened by if I'm working with him on a day to day basis, if the interviewer thinks I'm unattractive, they'll probably throw my resume away just because women are suppose to uphold a standard of attractiveness.

HUH?? As a matter of fact, young women are now the majority of university graduates, and the majority of new lawyers, doctors and accountants. The highest paid executive in the UK last year was a woman, and she made around $25m. I'm not saying women have it easy, or don't face pressures - particularly over having children - that guys don't face. But they can and do succeed on the basis of being good at their job. (And guys have their pressures, too). But anyway ...

I have a very beautiful daughter who's currently at college studying medicine. If she makes it as a doctor, it won't be because of her looks, it'll be because she worked her ass off for six years getting qualified and then another bunch more being a junior doctor. And I don't know what it's like where you live, but in the UK all newly-graduated doctors are ranked, based entirely on a points system determined by exam results, additional work, publication/research record, etc. It's that ranking that determines how good a job they get. And guess what, 'being pretty' isn't one of the criteria.

All that said, of course it's true that it really matters, in society as a whole for women to look good and dress well,  not least because other women are so incredibly judgemental about one another's appearance and style. But good-looking guys have always tended to get better grades at school and college and have better career prospects, so it works both ways. And with every year that passes, the pressure on men to conform to impossible stereotypes of physical perfection is getting stronger, so that's soon going to be as tough for them as it is for women.

FWIW, I worry MUCH more about my son's life-chances than I do about his sisters'. He's been through an education system that, from the very first years of junior school, is totally dominated by female teachers and seems strongly geared to suit girls, rather than boys. (Hence the huge preponderance of female graduates over male). True, that's just making up for the advantages boys and men used to have. But it's sad that his generation of guys are having to pay the price for all the advantages that previous generations of men have enjoyed. Because the pendulum is swinging. And it's not heading towards the Y-chromosome.

PS: I spent my whole education in boys-only schools and felt totally out of place until I started getting to know girls and could hang out with them all the time I wasn't in class. I've never been 'one of the lads', hate any kind of stag-night, and can barely knock a nail into a wall. My only 'boy' thing is that I've always been keen on sport. I was always super-competitive ... looking back I think it was basically a survival instinct. Just way of not getting the ->-bleeped-<- kicked out of me for being different.

I'm sure it does depend somewhat on the profession, and I can see the medical field being less apt to discriminate based on looks, but if you think that doesn't happen even there, and I mean on a subconscious level, then... Idk.  In 90% of professions though, how you look makes a huge difference in your career.  Not that you can't do well if you look not so great, but on average, it's much harder.

And it does effect men too, but all they need is to be tall and handsome and not dumb and they will get jobs and climb the ladder faster than anybody else.  And with the right type A alpha-male personality how a man looks doesn't even matter much.  For women, it's a bigger deal, plus you have the kind of dynamics alainaluvsu was talking about, where how you need to be and look varies depending on which decision-maker you encounter.  And if you have a type A personality as a woman, you're seen as a bitch and it doesn't help in the same way it helps men.

I am coming from a US perspective, maybe y'all are more enlightened in Europe.  If so, awesome, I'm jealous.

It seems like you ladies all have varied experiences when it comes to this topic, it may have a lot to do with the particular age groups you are identifying with, as well as demographics. I live in the PNW and it seems to me that maybe 4 out of every 10 women 30 and over really take an interest in how they look, the rest don't seem to care and I dare say that's true for the men as well. I'm noticing though that a higher percentage of the younger females aged 16 into late 20's not only try to be well dressed girly-girls, but excel over the boys scholastically and hold really exceptional GPS's and are headed for a successful professional life. Half the guys in that age group are HS dropouts dress like slobs and wind up in construction jobs, the rest aren't nearly as pro-active about their futures as are the young women.

I wish it weren't so rainy and cold up there.  I love how people in the pnw think about things in general

In regards to school, the advantage clearly goes to women who are excelling in almost every academic field. It's actually kind of annoying when I see all these commericals about helping poor, poor girls when it is boys who need the help. But it ends there. In elementary school.

For my graduating class in college in the School of Communications and Theatre (I know it's not math. Blech.) I was the only MAAB person who graduated Summa Cum Laude and each year they made me take a picture with the other high-achieving students who were all women. (And I was still made to stad in the front because they were all taller then me too. I can't win! JK)

But in your professional career things certainly change. Looks do matter and the taller you are as a guy the better. Which isn't good for me. Well I guess that doesn't apply so much anymore lol but it did. I was in a pretty female-dominated field (magazine editing) so that didn't matter much but if I was in sales or computers I think it would matter a lot more. Almost all studies say taller guys are more successful.  I once applied as a quarry and they laughed me out of the office. Looks matter. A lot. But as long as your tall as a guy and not a small, femme person, you're golden. Women have to be pretty (and wear makeup all the time whether they want to or not but honestly most want to.) They CAN'T be fat. That's a huge no no in a way that is just not true for men. And you are going to have to work much, much harder to get ahead but this might not be as true in certain fields. Get ready to be dismissed and have someone else's opinion that is the same as your's praised.

Obviously being a man is easier and better. And if you can do that and be happy and comfortable and successful, you prolly should. I would. I tried and I ended up so miserable.

But it comes down to this: Men grow up expecting to be the hero of their own story. Women grow up expecting to be the supporting actress in somebody else's. How many stories have a female lead and a male supporting character? It is so pervasive in stories written by women employ this. Usually in the form of trashy fiction. There are exceptions but really most stories and films revolve around a man and the woman is there to help the man achieve his dreams, not hers.

Don't forget guys ;)
Alot off jobs these days do depend on how they look too

You know, girls, the more that you sigh and say "Oh well, life is tough, that guy is probably going to get the job because he's a man and it's so hard for women," the more it will become true. Because when you start thinking like that, it saps your personal confidence, and you start internalizing these beliefs to the point where other people see that you're almost not expecting to get the job, and that lack of confidence ends up sabotaging your credentials.

That is the #1 thing that way too many women lack... confidence. They don't truly believe that they can be as good. And the more they believe it, the more it becomes true. Seriously. That's the gender difference. When guys are good at something, they know that they are good at it, and they aren't afraid to be proud of their skills. Where sometimes it seems like all women ever do is downplay themselves.

I saw it all through high school and college, and I'm still seeing it now. Come on, girls, don't buy into that crap. You're every bit as talented and capable as any man is, just as deserving of getting any job, and you know it. And if you don't, then you've already given up before even giving yourself a chance.

Quote from: so over you on July 01, 2013, 03:39:25 PM
What if you can't help it?? Like if you just never had confidence, you always doubted yourself, and people always responded to that by making you feel even more incapable.... and you just get terrified of responsibility cause you might ruin it and then they'd hate you...

Sometimes I think for some people it's impossible to be strong... myself included  :-\ I envy men's confidence so much...

That is something called the "curse of the good girl." Look into it. It's a serious problem in this country among middle-class white families, where girls are raised in environments that teach them that the number one virtue in life is to be seen by others as "good." Which means that the number one thing they are always worried about is the approval of others. And when that happens, no sense of self-worth develops. It's all about how others see you and how others perceive you, and you're afraid to take risks and afraid of disappointing others and eventually it comes to the point where you have no self-confidence.

This is something that SERIOUSLY has to change. And again, it's all about the problem of deriving your own self-worth from others. Where in the professional world, if you don't have a strong sense of conviction, and you're constantly doubting yourself because others don't agree with you, let's face it, you're toast.

And I'm only saying this because I find myself falling into the EXACT same trap, and I only can tell you about it because I went looking for books on the topic to help me figure out how to have more self-confidence. And now that I recognize what's going on, it disgusts me every time I see it.

As trans women we have all proven that you can overcome things not being laid out perfectly for you.  That doesn't change that they weren't though, nor does it mean that you shouldn't fight for things to be more equal.  Things are def getting better and that is why we need to keep pushing.  Some time from now I think it will become more even.  I think that is why there is such a backlash against feminists in certain circles—they can see the writing on the wall.

And that good girl syndrome or whatever, idk how I got that cause I sure wasn't taught it, well maybe from my dad cause he was kind of controllingish, but omg can I identify with how you describe it.  I would also love to just have some confidence in myself.

Quote from: so over you on July 01, 2013, 04:20:15 PM
So how do you become not just the good girl if it's how you built your value system  ??? Like how do you escape that kind of conditioning? Can you even re-condition yourself...?

I want to... but at the same time the approval of others is like a potent drug as much as it is a prison... it's like my entire reward system and I crave it so much. I don't know if I can live without that release of feeling "good" or pretty or lovable to people in my life...

And sometimes I think maybe it's just me, not only my conditioning, cause my dad and his family did condition me like that and I know it but also my sister didn't turn out like me with this problem...

Whoa that is awesomely written and I identify with it so much... D:

Yes, You actually can re-condition this "good girl syndrome" but You would have to be very careful so not to affect other parts of Your personality. I know one method, because essentially I was raised with the same problem, except my parents did not raise me as good "girl", but I was expect to be nice and calm and most importantly - not to shame them in the eyes of others. Bringing shame, so my mother would suffer was like my worst nightmare for so many years. Essentially, I reconditioned myself when I created my male alter-ego for protection and survival, but this method would not suit anybody here, because, if successful,  it leads into deeper denial mode. However, the approach which I chose back in those days could be probably re-adapted and what I did - I chose a lot of role-models for me and created a whole set of situations and scenarios where my chosen role-models would have different reactions, so if I found myself in one of these scenarios I would simply have to "play the role". I wonder if this could work with successful female role-models? One of the drawbacks which I see - there could probably be less female role-models for "anti-good girl scenarios" as they would for "dangerous boys"...

I wouldn't say I lack confidence so much as a backbone. People can walk all over me because I am too nice and I try way too hard to get people to like me and when they don't, it really hurts. So I either conform or become a total b!tch. It happens on this forum, it happens in real life it happens in my professional career. I aim to please and I'll get down on my knees if that's what it takes. (OMG not like that get your mind out of the gutter!) Well...nevermind

My sister has the same problem and will overburden herself with all kinds of activities if she is not careful. Anytime I have had to negotiate I have taken my mom as I easily get talked into things. My mom's tough. Growing up in the projects will do that.

But here is a useful guide I have found helpful in the past: http://www.amazon.com/Good-Girls-Guide-Negotiating-Effectively/dp/0712670858 (http://www.amazon.com/Good-Girls-Guide-Negotiating-Effectively/dp/0712670858)

The Good Girl's Guide to Negotiating. It is not juts about getting a better salary or moving up the ladder, it's just about standing up for yourself. And everyone here should give themselves more credit.

@So Over You: You moved far, far away from your home and started transition at 20 years old. You have more strength then you even know. Being trans is toughness.

And yeah obviously it is easier when you pass and thank god I have never had to deal with being clocked cause I would prolly never leave the house again (Thanks boobies) but just being passable doesn't mean you don't have a slew of other problems that need overcoming. In fact it has it's own problems in itself because, for me, now I'm thrust into a world I wasn't socialized into and I am in that world now whether I like it or not. [Tangent sorry].

Right now it's extremely difficult for me to try being a normal guy and it makes me depressed angry and very irritable. Even if I tried I have way too many feminine mannerisms to be seen as a straight guy.

So far I've been rejected several times in interviews after clearing all their requirements and stuff only to get rejected because they don't like me or the way I look or behave. It really sucks when you know you are more than capable of doing what they ask you to do but reject you simply because they can't take someone seriously. And in my previous job there were too many jokes and comments for me to be able to handle without going insane or coming home crying.

Since I've been trying to transition I've had to pay extra close attention so that I don't do things I could have gotten away with had I been guy.

As a kid I could only get along with a few guys and had to get into fights with them and I wouldn't mind helping with lifting stuff if I could.
Although now I am so weak I can barely lift anything more than 5 kgs, if it weren't for the conditioning I put myself through to defend myself as a kid I don't think I could carry anything heavy at all.

I've always been so bad at sports that I always got passed over or ignored except for soccer which I loved and I played in defence.

i cannot help but be a little feminine at school, mainly around the girls. They always say stuff like "Boy's don't do that," when i do something small like cross my legs coz its comfortable or when i describe my ideal relationship. everyone at school thinks i'm gay because of the way i talk, act, move etc. the boys especially. everyone sees me as a joke and physically and verbally push me around. people say i'm ugly when in reality they have hideous faces and as many of yous know i'm not ugly at all. they say i have a crap body and always say i suit Matina (this obese girl in yr 10 who weighs like 150kg and is really short too). they reckon i'm not worth dating because i'm not masculine and they (like 150 girls) all go for this selection of about 10 boys at my school, many of who are jerks, drug addicts, alcoholics, disrespectful to women, nasty, cruel, selfish and absolutely 100% obsessed with sex. Literally none of the girls are bisexual and only like 7.5% of the boys are bi and then for some weird reason they are sex obsessed and always saying mysogynistic things and treating people, including me as if we're sex objects (verbally, not actually having sex with us). like guys sometimes ask for sex and i am disgusted (especially when they ask me to be active parter, you know i'm trans). sometimes i get so badly harassed i almost give in but decide not to encase i catch chlamydia or HIV. i'm just generally sick of the way people treat me. i hate being treated as a boy.

To lilyyy and Alexia I say be yourself. At least a little. Especially at school. I mean they most likely won't pick up on it right away and if people in your lives do. Just deny it and say ," I don't know what your talking about?" Until your ready to go public

Quote from: Tristan on July 02, 2013, 07:43:19 AM
To lilyyy and Alexia I say be yourself. At least a little. Especially at school. I mean they most likely won't pick up on it right away and if people in your lives do. Just deny it and say ," I don't know what your talking about?" Until your ready to go public

Thanks Tristan, I think that would be a great idea.

The experience I had today though goes towards showing that men have a definite advantage over women in interviews and while looking for jobs.
Although I rather go more into in on my blog.

It's just seems waay easier for a guy to just walk in and get a job whereas women have to sometimes struggle with other women feeling threatened by them and at the same time we also have to worry about not meeting the feminine standards that other women as well as men might have.

So I guess that would be something towards expectations of a man.

Thinking about expectations of a man does anyone recall if they've come across any man wearing makeup and showing that he's wearing it?

Quote from: Alexia6 on July 03, 2013, 01:32:16 PM
Thinking about expectations of a man does anyone recall if they've come across any man wearing makeup and showing that he's wearing it?

Apart of metrosexuals? :)

Quote from: -Emily- on July 03, 2013, 02:17:12 PM
Apart of metrosexuals? :)

Seconding that question :)

The other thing is partially a cultural one, but in Seoul I saw quite a few men rocking visible makeup (mainly eyeliner, but stuff like BB creams are common, if not really visible).

Oh, and of course people from the goth scene.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on June 29, 2013, 01:15:37 AM
Yeah... definitely something that drove me absolutely crazy back in the day. Pretty much word for word. Hated having to lift stuff, hated those stupid heteronormative male expectations about being a casanova, HATED people saying things like "suck it up" and "be a man," and I just wanted to scream "I'm not a man, damn it!!! I don't want to be one!"

Good for you!! I've always been the same way. So many times I heard those type words & I also said I have no interest in that stuff at all, went & painted my nails a nice pink as soon as possible.   FYI you look great.

Quote from: Alexia6 on July 03, 2013, 01:32:16 PM
Thinking about expectations of a man does anyone recall if they've come across any man wearing makeup and showing that he's wearing it?

Well, me, pretty much every day from 1977-83! But I could just pretend that it was fa-fa-fa-fa-fashion!