Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello everyone,
I am posting this because I asked my father tonight what his argument is for why I should not become a female (I'm male right now). This is (pretty much) his argument, translated from Korean and summarized:

He says that being happy as a transsexual will only last 5 years. 10, if you're lucky. After that, life goes downhill. No one will like you because you are "not normal". Nor will your family. Why would they, when you think such "abnormal" thoughts and "absolutely crazy"? You will be forever alone, and you will be depressed and regret your decision. You will also die early because of harmful hormones. The reason they only show trans that are in their 20s and 30s is because the ones beyond their 50s are the ones that aren't happy, while the ones in their 20s and 30s are (because they are still in their short period of happiness).
No one will be your friend. 99.99999% (Yes, he did say a lot of 9s, but I don't exactly remember how many. I think that you all will get what's he's saying, though) of the people in this world only like people that are normal. The 0.000001% that do like things that aren't normal are just crazy. Also, the ones that support their children changing genders are either crazy or don't care about them. When they change, they become a "nobody" to them.
The only legitimate reason that would be reasonable enough to let someone change genders is when they have a serious hormonal balance issue. They have so much hormones of the other gender that (in a male's case) they do not have body hair and their penis is almost non-existent. Other reasons are not good enough, and they will just regret their decision.

I would like to know other people's opinion on this argument. Just saying, but he also took a psychology course, which is why he knows all this stuff (or so he says *shrug*) .

Short answer? His argument is dirt.

Longer answer is it's dirt because it sounds based on ignorance and is pulling out numbers from his ass. Does he have any evidence to support his claims?

Plenty of transgenders have relationships and friends and get treated just like cis people do. Despite popular believe, it is not obvious to many people that somebody is transgender if they have had a successful transition. And transgender people do not walk around with a sign saying what they are for all to see.

Don't let him scare you, because that's what it sounds like he is trying to do.

He took "a" psychology course...which means he's as qualified to speak about trans issues as a medium-sized rock.

For the most part, he's just using basic fear arguments to keep you from transitioning. Now having said that, he does say a couple things that are true:

The number of people who will find you desirable will be less than if you stayed male. This does not mean that you will be "forever alone." There are people who will accept you and who will want a relationship.

Unfortunately, families have been known to reject their transsexual son/daughter/husband/wife etc. However, this is not due to the transition, but rather because "the family" doesn't understand or practice unconditional love. If a family truly loves its members, it will accept them no matter what (the only exception is if the person is an immediate or chronic threat to the family's safety and well-being).

There are times when a transsexual has regrets...the studies mention a few of them, it's around 1% are unhappy. The other 99% are very happy. Your father mentions "the ones we don't talk about..." If that is true, how does he know about them? He doesn't --that's why he uses hyperbole in his arguments.

Being trans is a challenge, I'm not denying that...but to use fear rather than knowledge is irresponsible for an adult.

Sounds like he's basically using the "I had basic training that I didn't really understand about psychology therefore that makes my word absolute." In other words, a crutch to his prejudice. If he really took college (polytechnic?) level psychology, he would know about the need for reliable sources/citations as part of the scientific method and that treatment of trans women (hormone therapy) is known to reduce secondary mental health symptoms (depression, anxiety, social distress).

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453011002629

Obviously with no real information to back the claims he only has his word to beat you over the head with.

If he's still using (equivalent, i.e. Korean) terms as 'normal' and 'crazy' then it doesn't say much about his psychology course, does it?

What is normal anyway? Normal is being yourself, and even when you look at the semantics, this is what people really mean when they talk about 'normal'.

Being trans is all about being yourself inside and out to the exact same degree as someone who isn't trans. It's not about becoming another gender or another person. This is not scientifically possible. You can only be who you are.

The psychology course argument just doesn't wash. Lots of people have driving licences, but this doesn't make them good drivers.

His argument is crappy because he just made it up, lol.

I doubt if any of his argument is based on psychology and if it is based on what he learned in his psychology course, then his course was full of crap!

I transitioned and had SRS at the age of 24, nearly 40 years ago, and lived a perfectly normal life. I woodworked well, was totally accepted, and nobody ever gave me a second glance. In my 30s rumours of my medical background came out and I lost a few "friends" but the good ones remained and a lot of people just dismissed the rumours as not-possible! In my 50s I was more open about my background and nobody believed it. I am 64 now, I have as many friends as ever (and better friends at that!). I have been married twice (no kids) and my dating and love life are no different than any of the born-female girls that I know.

I only know one other from "my generation" and she is even more open than I am and our lives have been much the same so there are TWO of us who's experiences don't agree with you father's theory!

So, he's basically saying not to transition because nobody will like you.

If you live your life for the sole purpose of getting other people to like you, then you are already living life wrong.  In such a case, it becomes irrelevant whether one transitions or not, because they aren't really living.  They are just going through the motions.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on July 30, 2013, 05:49:21 AM
So, he's basically saying not to transition because nobody will like you.

If you live your life for the sole purpose of getting other people to like you, then you are already living life wrong.  In such a case, it becomes irrelevant whether one transitions or not, because they aren't really living.  They are just going through the motions.

QFT.
And if someone doesn't transition so people will like them, who is it those people like? Someone they don't truly know. And it's counter intuitive. People are attracted to people who like themselves. Not as much to people who fall all over themselves trying to be liked. The more you are yourself and comfortable with yourself, the more people will like you.

Pre transition: no friends, little respect. I didn't respect me so how could anyone else?

Post transition: (major problems); heaps of friends, invited to dinners, parties, serve on committees at government level, sought after and -- I have a boyfriend.

I need more time to fit my life into my life!!!

Now which one would you prefer?

Your Dad, clueless and biased or Cindy, living it.

Cindy (Oh I vote for me!!)

He used the average age of transgendered folks as a base for his five-year argument...
The problem with this is, the idea of being transgendered is only slowly taking hold. The number of those so identified is increasing over time at a probably-more-than-linear rate, and it's easier for younger people to make the leap (fewer commitments, say). Thus there will be more young transitioners than old, almost by definition. And there's only a minority of trans folks who've lived decades in their new bodies.

Many happy more-than-five-years' folks, though. Which should cancel the other half of his argument.

I think he's sorta right. Transitioning and living as a transgender woman is hard. It's not something to choose.

The only reason to do it is if you have no choice, if living any other way is unthinkable.

I think your father is expressing some of his own fears and projecting them onto a group in its entirety.

He is right in that it is difficult and you probably will lose some friends over it, hopefully you will make other friends.  As for being happy, I'm happy that I transitioned and it has been over 10 years.  Before I transitioned I had "periods" of happiness, but most of the time I was unhappy and sad.

You should always listen to your parents opinions, but in the end, its "Your" life.  You need to do what is right for you.

I am going to be controversial and say some of those things are legit things to consider.   Transitioning isn't the easiest road and there are possible negative consequences.   Yes, he is overblowing it and some if what he said is false, but we should all undersrand that there will be challenges.  You have to ask yourself if transitioning is worth it in case you are presented with social strife.  Many of us say yes and we overcome it.  It isn't easy, but it will turn out great if it is rhe right path for you.  But only you can tell whether it is worth it fir you.

P.s.  I do want to add that much of what he said was pure fear mongering and false.  Much of it is a negative fantasy that he created.  However, I do think we need to also look at the possible negatives when deciding to transition as well.

Your dad talks out of his ass

99.99999% of his statistical claims lack empirical support.

Maddy

In my opinion, his argument is irrelevant. Regardless of how much sense it does or doesn't make. Whatever he does or doesn't know. If you are transgendered and feel you need to transition then he can argue till he's blue in the face, it won't change that fact.

You live your life. He doesn't live it for you. It's your decision to make. Your path to walk, mistakes to make and learn from. And ultimately, your chance to make a happier life for yourself.

Transitioning isn't something people do because other people tell them it's the right thing to do. It's something people do because it's what they feel they need to do. So do what you feel you need to do. For you. Not for him, not for anyone else.

As an aside... you know what they say about normality. If you think someone is normal, you just don't know them well enough.

In my next post, I'll address his points one-by-one, but for now, I'd like you to consider looking at things from the following perspective:

• For all kinds of relationships, be they professional, romantic, sexual, or friendship, people are attracted to confidence and positive attitudes. People do not like being with downers and insecure people. This should be obvious.
• Confidence and positive attitudes come from having high self-esteem.
• Generally speaking, transition is one of the hardest journeys that people can undertake. And the reason why they do it is because they feel like not transitioning would make their lives even harder to bear.
• Those who really should but don't transition will inevitably feel miserable for the rest of their lives. That misery will destroy their self-esteem and become social poison.

Based on that, we can infer the following:

• Those who really should and do transition gain a degree of self-esteem that was previously unknown to them, which leads to confidence.
• That confidence is attractive and leads to new relationships and better relationships.
• People admire someone who would undertake such a difficult journey with such confidence. They use words like "courage" and "brave" to describe this person.

If you ask every transsexual on this site about what her/his "new life" is like, the answer would match the above points.

EVERYONE who went to college (just about) took a psychology course. I don't think most of them even talk about transgender. And if it did, it's full of sh** and so is your dad.

Maybe all of a sudden 5  years on, I will lose all my friends and so on-- for real?!  I am more social transitioning than I was before, also more popular. I didn't date pre-transition and I do now.

--Jay

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMHe says that being happy as a transsexual will only last 5 years. 10, if you're lucky. After that, life goes downhill. No one will like you because you are "not normal".

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMYou will be forever alone, and you will be depressed and regret your decision.

I highly doubt your father can predict the future any more than anyone else can.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMNor will your family.

This he can predict since it refers to his own actions. However, his actions are his responsibility. I suggest living for yourself, not for him. He also can't speak for any other members of your family.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMWhy would they, when you think such "abnormal" thoughts and "absolutely crazy"?

If he is speaking as someone who took a psychology course, then he should know that "crazy" is the wrong term. Either way, psychologists and psychiatrists who specialize in gender issues (and who have taken many more psych courses than your father) are aware that being transgender does not mean someone is mentally ill.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMYou will also die early because of harmful hormones.

Again with the fortune telling. Although there are health risks one needs to watch out for while taking hormones, they are not nearly as dire and certain as he says.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMThe reason they only show trans that are in their 20s and 30s is because the ones beyond their 50s are the ones that aren't happy, while the ones in their 20s and 30s are (because they are still in their short period of happiness).

I will leave this for the more experienced ladies and gents to answer. I assure you, there are plenty of happy people around.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMNo one will be your friend.

Again with the fortune telling. Not to mention, who is he to speak for everyone?

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AM99.99999% (Yes, he did say a lot of 9s, but I don't exactly remember how many. I think that you all will get what's he's saying, though) of the people in this world only like people that are normal. The 0.000001% that do like things that aren't normal are just crazy.

Those statistics are made up. He also cannot speak for the rest of the people in this world.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMAlso, the ones that support their children changing genders are either crazy or don't care about them.

Supporting one's child is not crazy. Preferring their child to be happy and alive is not crazy. These are the parents that care about their children.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMWhen they change, they become a "nobody" to them.

I don't think he understands what support means.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMThe only legitimate reason that would be reasonable enough to let someone change genders is when they have a serious hormonal balance issue.

The theory is that this is the case for transgender people.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AMThey have so much hormones of the other gender that (in a male's case) they do not have body hair and their penis is almost non-existent. Other reasons are not good enough, and they will just regret their decision.

Psychologists and psychiatrists agree that being transgender is a good enough reason to transition and do, in fact, support it and transitioning is seen as the most effective treatment.

Quote from: aleon515 on July 30, 2013, 02:50:41 PM
EVERYONE who went to college (just about) took a psychology course. I don't think most of them even talk about transgender. And if it did, it's full of sh** and so is your dad.

Maybe all of a sudden 5  years on, I will lose all my friends and so on-- for real?!  I am more social transitioning than I was before, also more popular. I didn't date pre-transition and I do now.

--Jay

I took a few astronomy courses in college.  Now I am a world renowned astronomer.  ;)

Seriously taking one college course on a subject does not make you an expert or an authority in that area. 

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AM
Hello everyone,
I am posting this because I asked my father tonight what his argument is for why I should not become a female (I'm male right now). This is (pretty much) his argument, translated from Korean and summarized:

He says that being happy as a transsexual will only last 5 years. 10, if you're lucky. After that, life goes downhill. No one will like you because you are "not normal".

That makes no sense right off the bat. The beginning is the unhappiest part of the whole deal! The longer it's been since transitioning begun, the more normal you'll seem. (Assuming you're aiming for normal :) )

QuoteNor will your family. Why would they, when you think such "abnormal" thoughts and "absolutely crazy"? You will be forever alone, and you will be depressed and regret your decision. You will also die early because of harmful hormones. The reason they only show trans that are in their 20s and 30s is because the ones beyond their 50s are the ones that aren't happy, while the ones in their 20s and 30s are (because they are still in their short period of happiness).

This literally makes no sense. He has nothing to back up the claim that it's "absolutely crazy", and I've already dismantled this supposed "period of happiness" thing. In addition, only showing transsexuals in their 20s and 30s? Since when? The older transsexuals tend to be happier, from what I've seen, even the ones who have started transitioning late in life.

Of course, there are many more transsexuals now, because society is friendlier to them now, if not friendly enough, and transgender people who otherwise would have kept it repressed all their lives are able to come out and transition. There are plenty of older transsexuals though, including those who transitioned in their 20s.

Lynn Conway is a pretty good counterexample to pretty much all the nonsense he spouted. She's 75 years old, and she transitioned when she was 30, in 1968. Still healthy, and a very successful computer scientist and engineer.

QuoteNo one will be your friend. 99.99999% (Yes, he did say a lot of 9s, but I don't exactly remember how many. I think that you all will get what's he's saying, though) of the people in this world only like people that are normal. The 0.000001% that do like things that aren't normal are just crazy. Also, the ones that support their children changing genders are either crazy or don't care about them. When they change, they become a "nobody" to them.

Well, that's just nonsense. I'm sure on some level you can recognize how absurd it is, though I understand feeling a little unsure and insecure. Notice that he doesn't bother to back any of it up, and just makes these outlandish claims.

I'm guessing that you're fairly young, since you're even bothering with any of this nonsense. Here's the deal: He's vastly exaggerating how many people are as severely transphobic as he is, to try and scare you, and besides, since you're young it's likely that you can completely "pass" within a reasonable timeframe, and would never have to be out in the first place, even assuming all your friends ditch you because they're jerks and you have to get new friends.

QuoteThe only legitimate reason that would be reasonable enough to let someone change genders is when they have a serious hormonal balance issue. They have so much hormones of the other gender that (in a male's case) they do not have body hair and their penis is almost non-existent. Other reasons are not good enough, and they will just regret their decision.

"Other reasons are not good enough"

Okay... and?

I'm seeing a theme here, where he just makes these claims and then offers up no reason as to why they're true.

QuoteI would like to know other people's opinion on this argument. Just saying, but he also took a psychology course, which is why he knows all this stuff (or so he says *shrug*) .

My opinion: Laughably stupid. The vast majority of those with actual degrees in psychology disagree with him, and he is using some supposed course in college that anyone can take, that wouldn't have even addressed anything like this, to back up ludicrous claims.

I'm not a fan of "white lies", and love playing devil's advocate, but seriously, your father is out of his mind. He's just scared and doesn't like this part of you, and he's trying to scare you into getting rid of it.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AM
No one will be your friend. 99.99999% ... of the people in this world only like people that are normal.

Count me in the 0.00001%!  ;D

Quote from: MadeleineG on July 30, 2013, 11:27:14 AM
99.99999% of his statistical claims lack empirical support.

Maddy

ROFL! :laugh:


Seriously, when people give statistics you can usually translate it as, "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm really very passionate about this!"

I do agree that transition is not something to rush into, and you do have to consider how difficult it can be both during and after. Although, if you need it and you keep talking yourself out of it because you're afraid, you only hurt yourself more. So I think it's about figuring out what you really need to do and doing it. And if someone refuses to be a part of your life anymore because you transitioned, that's on them. You can't force people to be compassionate and understanding. You can't force people to love you unconditionally. You can only hope that when you do what you need to do for your own quality of life and peace of mind that they'll stand by you because they love you more than they love their worldview.

So reading all these replies, it seems like my dad is just using fear and no facts. That's cool, but I have another question (don't know if this is off-topic, but I don't think it is): Do you think I can start transitioning before college/university?
I mean, my parents are obviously scared of me transitioning, so they don't want me to transition. But does that necessarily mean that I can't transition before I go off to college? I would prefer that I start before college/university. In the very least, I would like to see a psychiatrist (or whatever they're called  :P). However, my parents don't like that because:
1. Apparently, they think psychiatrists are just greedy people that just want your money and don't care about you o.o (ex. "Okay you can change because I don't give a crap about you. Now gimme your money")
2. At the moment I'm meeting my dentist and other doctors for braces, and psychiatrists cost a lot of money (apparently). So my mom is constantly using that to make me not transition (I partially expected this kind of thing but... oh well)
Is there anything I can do right now about transitioning? Or am I seriously stuck right now? :(

Quote from: lavini557 on July 31, 2013, 11:10:39 AMDo you think I can start transitioning before college/university?
I mean, my parents are obviously scared of me transitioning, so they don't want me to transition. But does that necessarily mean that I can't transition before I go off to college? I would prefer that I start before college/university. In the very least, I would like to see a psychiatrist (or whatever they're called  :P).

The only way that I can imagine is if you have access to a form of transportation that your parents can't control, and you get a job to make some money so that you can go to a therapist on your own and pay for it on your own. Many therapists use sliding-scale pricing, so you might be able to see one for $75-125 per hour-long session.

Quote1. Apparently, they think psychiatrists are just greedy people that just want your money and don't care about you o.o (ex. "Okay you can change because I don't give a crap about you. Now gimme your money")

Anyone can say that about any kind of doctor. For example, when my dentist told me to get my wisdom teeth removed, my father claimed that I was being scammed. Seriously.

Quote2. At the moment I'm meeting my dentist and other doctors for braces, and psychiatrists cost a lot of money (apparently). So my mom is constantly using that to make me not transition (I partially expected this kind of thing but... oh well)
Is there anything I can do right now about transitioning? Or am I seriously stuck right now? :(

You can build a new wardrobe. You can practice changing your voice (and watch YouTube videos for guidance). You can work on mannerisms, body language, and posture, walk, and verbal expression. There are so many things to be done in a transition that have nothing to do with hormones or surgery.

Quote from: learningtolive on July 30, 2013, 02:57:42 PM
I took a few astronomy courses in college.  Now I am a world renowned astronomer.  ;)

Seriously taking one college course on a subject does not make you an expert or an authority in that area.

Hmm, never thought of it this way. i have taken FOUR geology classes. Should be ready for mining the moon.

>99.99999% of his statistical claims lack empirical support.

Hilarious!

Oh well, this thread is giving me a good laugh at your poor dad's expense.

I think fear, within limits, can be good because it makes us cautious. OTOH it can be paralyzing. I agree some psychiatrists are greedy and care nothing for you. It's like professionals in any field, there are bad ones and good ones. Sounds like they are on to more monetary factors in trying to keep you from transitioning. Some of this might be real, but since it is not what they started with, I tend to not believe it too much.

If it were all monetary, they would have said, "we can't help you right now with the money, but what can we do right now to help you". They would work on calling you by correct names and pronouns and so on.




--Jay

I've been working through an initial therapy teaching of life coping skills. One of the first things we learned is self-care. Another thing we learned more recently is boundaries. Every person has their own history, emotions, beliefs, etc etc etc inside the boundary called "you". Think of it like a box that is you and boxes that are others. If you break down that boundary wall of your box and start letting other people start telling you what your experiences, emotions, beliefs etc are or should be, then that sense of self starts to fall out. That's why you will find people who don't really know what they want or what they like and rely on others so much for approval and happiness - they've had other people dictating it for so long.  And self care is definitely not selfish. Apparently the word selfish is only found in English (I want to double check that). Putting yourself as your first priority is not selfish, it's your responsibility. No one else is going to do it. If you put yourself at the bottom of your list, you might never get enough care. Guess where that could lead. It could be burnout, emotional breakdown... But nothing good. Worst of all, people don't get the gift that is you anymore.

If your dad was really thinking from a psychological perspective he wouldn't be thinking about an unknown future and essentially put words and beliefs into the mouths of nearly every single human being alive on this earth right now and calling everyone who didn't think like him crazy. He would have been thinking of how this would, and has been affecting you psychologically. But he wasn't. I would urge you to take the time and do that for yourself.  What everyone else has been saying is that there are people who will love and accept you for the beautiful person you are. Find the road that is right for YOU. No one else can find or walk that path.

-Asa

Quote from: lavini557 on July 31, 2013, 11:10:39 AM
So reading all these replies, it seems like my dad is just using fear and no facts. That's cool, but I have another question (don't know if this is off-topic, but I don't think it is): Do you think I can start transitioning before college/university?
I mean, my parents are obviously scared of me transitioning, so they don't want me to transition. But does that necessarily mean that I can't transition before I go off to college? I would prefer that I start before college/university. In the very least, I would like to see a psychiatrist (or whatever they're called  :P). However, my parents don't like that because:
1. Apparently, they think psychiatrists are just greedy people that just want your money and don't care about you o.o (ex. "Okay you can change because I don't give a crap about you. Now gimme your money")
2. At the moment I'm meeting my dentist and other doctors for braces, and psychiatrists cost a lot of money (apparently). So my mom is constantly using that to make me not transition (I partially expected this kind of thing but... oh well)
Is there anything I can do right now about transitioning? Or am I seriously stuck right now? :(

Without knowing your situation, I can't tell you if you could transition before college.  It's up to you and/or your current circumstances.  When  do you plan on going to college?  Do you want to wait a little after high school or jump right in?  Do you think your parents will help and allow you to transition?  Do you want to save up money and transition before college?  This will take some time.  I'm assuming you are younger, so these are factors you have to consider.  It's rough, I know, but it's best to prepare an consider what you can and can't do.  I'm 24 and still have difficulties with my transition because I live at home and there are rules I must obey while under my mom's roof.  Keep in mind that it is possible to transition in college.  I have a friend who did that, though she took a break for that year.

As for doctors being in it for the money, that isn't really fair.  The amount of education and training involved in being a psychiatrist is very detailed.  I don't believe that someone would get involved in that field if there heart wasn't into it.  Otherwise, they won't make it through med school.  Sure, they want to be paid for their service as any other professional would, but that doesn't mean that they don't care about their patients or lack the proper insight to help them. 

Yes, it is wise to consider your other expenses.  Transitioning is wonderful for the right person, but it is never easy on the pocketbook.  I have rushed into my transition, financially speaking, and know that it is wise to think about how you will actually make it out.  I don't regret what I have done and glad I haven't waited, but all the same, I would have preferred to have been on a more stable financial footing.  Having said that, there are always ways to make things swing.  It just takes some planning and work.  Is there anything you could do so that you can afford starting? 

Quote from: lavini557 on July 30, 2013, 02:25:34 AM
SNIP

I would like to know other people's opinion on this argument. Just saying, but he also took a psychology course, which is why he knows all this stuff (or so he says *shrug*) .

There is a saying: "A little knowledge is dangerous."

If that is so, then your father just might be the most dangerous man in the world.

Quote from: Edge on July 30, 2013, 02:51:50 PM
Either way, psychologists and psychiatrists who specialize in gender issues (and who have taken many more psych courses than your father) are aware that being transgender does not mean someone is mentally ill.

They once thought it was a mental illness and tried to cure it. They weren't successful in any of their tries and many human beings paid the price (while neither of those were therapists).

Now some of them seem to be more experienced. They accepted that it still might be a mental illness, but that nobody seems to be able to cure it. I wonder what the reason is. But whatever, some few realized what's going on. Nevertheless, we now get the treatment we need.

Apart from that I totally agree with Jamie.

Quote from: lavini557 on July 31, 2013, 11:10:39 AMDo you think I can start transitioning before college/university? ......... Is there anything I can do right now about transitioning? Or am I seriously stuck right now? :(

I managed to find a doctor to start me on HRT when I was 17 (without parental consent) and I went away to college at 19 (to get away from home) - it was the perfect time to transition!

I went in 1969 so there was no way to legally change anything at  that  time so I went "gender-less" - only the college registrar knew my situation. I went by my initials and family name and nobody knew if I was male or female - though most figured I was female. It was absolutely PERFECT and my college transcript was perfectly usable after transition. The college crowd tend to be a lot more informed and open-minded than folks in general.

Quote from: PiaBianca on August 01, 2013, 01:12:40 AMNow some of them seem to be more experienced. They accepted that it still might be a mental illness, but that nobody seems to be able to cure it. I wonder what the reason is. But whatever, some few realized what's going on. Nevertheless, we now get the treatment we need.

Among professional (i.e., certified) psychiatrists (and other mental health workers), the only ones who view gender dysphoria as a mental illness (in the way that you mean) are quacks, and they are very few these days. Although "gender identity disorder" was listed in the DSM IV for many years, it was not described as a delusion, and the recommended treatment (for the past four decades) has been transition. In other words, transitioning is now accepted as the cure for gender dysphoria. You can find plenty of papers in psychology, psychiatry, and sociology journals that show the success rate to be over 90%. Many treatments for physical disorders don't even have success rates that are so high.

The recently-released DSM V has corrected many of the problems with the DSM IV description. There is now a clear understanding that being transgender is not in itself a mental disorder, but those people who feel so distressed by living as their gender-assigned-at-birth that it impairs their ability to function socially, professionally, sexually, etc. do require intervention.

What laypeople don't understand is that mental health professionals (at least competent ones) do not think in terms of "crazy" versus "sane." They're educated and experienced enough to know that there are huge variations in healthy human psychology, and they see their job as helping those whose issues have serious negative impacts on quality of life. For example, if you believe that you're the Emperor of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton) and are perfectly happy and don't harm yourself or others, then mental health professionals would be merely amused rather than demanding that you be institutionalized.

Quote from: aleon515 on July 30, 2013, 02:50:41 PM
EVERYONE who went to college (just about) took a psychology course. I don't think most of them even talk about transgender. And if it did, it's full of sh** and so is your dad.

I was planning on majoring in psychology before I quit college.  I don't remember ANY of my psychology classes talking about ->-bleeped-<-.  Like, at all.

@Silvermist

While I agree with you in principal, I have to disagree on the detailed view. I can accept that most trained and versed therapists might give you the right cure. Nevertheless I'd say that a majority doesn't do that because they are convinced; rather because they accept the written word.

For myself that means I'll go to a therapist whom I was assured that she is trans-friendly. I think that makes a difference, though your mileage may vary.

Quote from: PiaBianca on August 01, 2013, 08:19:05 AMNevertheless I'd say that a majority doesn't do that because they are convinced; rather because they accept the written word.

What is the difference? If you're a physician or clinician of any kind, then you read the latest research in your field in order to learn how to better help your patients. It's a learning process, not a judgment process. "Accepting the written word," as you say, means being convinced (as far as doctors are concerned). Otherwise, you just wouldn't accept it because you don't believe that it would better help your patients. Why would you accept something if you weren't convinced that it would help your patients?

I know that there is a lot of transphobia and ignorance in the world, but I think that we sometimes take the "world is against us" perspective a bit too far. Being too paranoid can be unhealthy.

The reason why most mental health professionals are unhelpful to trans people is because they lack the proper training and experience to offer the right treatment. At that point, it becomes an issue of professional ethics, not personal convictions. To use an analogy, if you were a general practitioner and you have a patient who really needs surgery, are you going to perform the surgery yourself?

Quote from: VeryGnawty on August 01, 2013, 08:17:39 AM
I was planning on majoring in psychology before I quit college.  I don't remember ANY of my psychology classes talking about ->-bleeped-<-.  Like, at all.

While I never took a psychology course, my mother actually has her PhD in the stuff. Trans? Nope, nada, nothing. Wasn't taught back then.
A good friend also studied psychology, and recently completed his psychotherapy certification on top of it. Trans? Ehm. He knows it exists, that's about the extent of the teaching.
Personal experience was also fun, as I did a therapy due to depression prior to realising certain stuff. 160 hours, mentioned that I'm a woman in many of my dreams, some of my fantasies, etc. Questions / suggestions with respect to me potentially being trans or anything similar: none.

When it came to my therapist for trans issues, I went out and looked for a psychiatrist, not a psychologist (wanted someone with actual medical training), who is specialised on the subject. Turns out I got lucky and ended up with one of the most senior people in the field, as she has not only been working with trans people since the early 80's, but is also regularly consulted by the government on the topic when it comes to policy making (which can play a bit of havoc with appointments, but that's a small price to pay imho).

Interesting post!
As people have said he is using scare tactics as well as projecting his own biased views to dissuade you.But don't get me wrong some of what he says does represent how many people view a transitioned individual.I transitioned 10 years ago deciding to do it whilst i worked for the same company who had employed me for over 9 years.Now even the HR director asked me if it wouldn't be best to do it somewhere else,i work in a very macho engineering factory,but i stuck it out even though i used to get filthy looks from some and others who previously spoke to me now wouldn't.Fortunetely some did and some others i had never spoke to would tell me how much they admired me,swings and roundabouts.Luckily for me i used to get an awful lot of attention from men who didn't know of my history and i mean an awful lot of attention,which was scary at first but you soon get used to it:)I knew all my comerades thought i was in for a terrible life that would be disasterous but i can safely say that this has not happened.All of my boyfriends have been much younger than me and totally hetrosexual and they have all been long termish and i was always the one who broke it off.All of my BF's didn't know and i had to tell them after a few months about my history and do you know what?Every single one of them said "so what?"i suppose i have been very lucky...i duno!Now family well that has been a different matter all of them have been friendly enough but no invites to parties etc.weddings and funerals only.Even my workmates all love me but still no social invites,well except three guys and thats becuase they want to F me.thank god for my wonderful friends though,i say friends but i only have 5.
     But i had to transition there was no choice,before i did i was living a lie and killing myself slowly but now i am a completely different person,confident,outgoing,in yer face,party animal but i have still had awful experiences when people found out,awful experiences that open your eyes to how horrible and bitchy people can be.

Thank you all for support  :) Right now I'm practicing my voice, as Silvermist suggested.
Something interesting came up though...my parents finally decided that i need to go to a doctor. They asked my family doctor about who to talk to (I'm going to assume he referred them to someone that is actually familiar with this gender stuff, because reading the replies, it seems that some doctors aren't trained in that field to do much). I think they also decided to go because I've been depressed lately...like to the point where I don't feel like doing anything :(
What's interesting, though, is that my mom is going there to "make the doctor change my mind". I guess it's because my family doctor said that they need to find the source of the issue (which makes sense, because he doesn't know if I really feel that way or just misguided). However, if Silvermist is not kidding about transitioning being an actual treatment for gender dysphoria, then my parents...well, they aren't going to be happy, that's for sure (I overheard my mom saying how she would SUE the doctor if he/she said anything "crazy"  ::) )

P.S. And I almost forgot but...how much does it cost to visit with or without insurance? My mom said that she might not go if insurance doesn't work, so I'm just wondering about prices.
Also, is it complete BS that my parents think that one of reasons I'm like this is because I'm getting into an age where I start to get interested in girls? I mean, I can sort of see how that works...but it still sounds like complete BS.

I'm glad you are seeing somebody and your parents are taking it seriously.

I can't describe prices as everyone's insurance and copay differs.  Also, there are different policies for our non American forum members.  Procedures differ country to country.

Quote from: lavini557 on August 02, 2013, 08:51:17 PM
P.S. And I almost forgot but...how much does it cost to visit with or without insurance? My mom said that she might not go if insurance doesn't work, so I'm just wondering about prices.

If you live in the United States, most therapists would charge $75-$150 per hour-long session without insurance, the average being around $120.  With insurance, the copay would range from $25 to 50% of the uninsured rate.

Quote from: lavini557 on August 02, 2013, 08:51:17 PMAlso, is it complete BS that my parents think that one of reasons I'm like this is because I'm getting into an age where I start to get interested in girls?

Yes. Gender identity is entirely separate from sexual orientation. Please make sure that your parents are clear on that.

I think the answer to this is simple ... your dad wants a son, not a daughter. I'm sure some cultural things come into play with his "colorful" interpretation of trans individuals as well.

That said, as far as I can tell, transition IS a hard road and there's a lot of hurdles along the way. It's not like you can just flip a switch and magically become the woman you want with the perfect life you imagine. Things might not work out. You may lose friends, your family may shun you, you may lose work, your health might change. There's so many things that can happen but NO ONE can predict what will actually happen.

*sigh* Looks like I didn't ask my mom about how many times we were going to visit the doctor...because it's only going to be once...and she's still insisting that the doctor should change my mind, not my body. Apparently, if the doctor says I have to transition, that doctor is BS and is not a good doctor  >:( It looks like I'll have to wait until college/university, but I don't know if I can last that long...this depression is killing me :(

Quote from: lavini557 on August 02, 2013, 08:51:17 PM
P.S. And I almost forgot but...how much does it cost to visit with or without insurance? My mom said that she might not go if insurance doesn't work, so I'm just wondering about prices.
Also, is it complete BS that my parents think that one of reasons I'm like this is because I'm getting into an age where I start to get interested in girls? I mean, I can sort of see how that works...but it still sounds like complete BS.

Therapists in the United States can run anywhere from $75/session to over $200/session.  Many have a sliding scale.  Psychiatrists are often affiliated with insurance plans.

Make sure you insist on your privacy with the therapist. Your parents should not be part of the therapy after, perhaps, the first session.  This is not family therapy.

Please listen closely and carefully to me because I am giving you some potentially life-saving information.

If you go to a therapist, and she/he prescribes transition as the treatment for your gender dysphoria, and your parents don't take it seriously and refuse to allow you this treatment, then by both the letter and spirit of the law, your parents are guilty of child neglect (which is considered a form of abuse) under the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act and should be reported to the authorities. The same applies if they refuse to take you to more than one session with a therapist. Here is what the law says...

According the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services Administration for Children & Families: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/cb/capta2010.pdf (http://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/cb/capta2010.pdf)

QuoteIn this Act—

• 1. the term 'child' means a person who has not attained the lesser of—
  A. the age of 18; or
  B. except in the case of sexual abuse, the age specified by the child protection law of the State in which the child resides;
• 2. the term 'child abuse and neglect' means, at a minimum, any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker, which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation, or an act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm;

According the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services Child Welfare Information Gateway https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/whatiscan.cfm]ttps://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/whatiscan.cfm]https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/whatiscan.cfm (http://ttps://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/whatiscan.cfm)

QuoteNeglect is the failure of a parent, guardian, or other caregiver to provide for a child's basic needs. Neglect may be:

• Physical (e.g., failure to provide necessary food or shelter, or lack of appropriate supervision)
• Medical (e.g., failure to provide necessary medical or mental health treatment)
• Educational (e.g., failure to educate a child or attend to special education needs)
• Emotional (e.g., inattention to a child's emotional needs, failure to provide psychological care, or permitting the child to use alcohol or other drugs)

According to the American Humane Association: http://www.americanhumane.org/children/stop-child-abuse/fact-sheets/child-neglect.html (http://www.americanhumane.org/children/stop-child-abuse/fact-sheets/child-neglect.html)

QuoteMedical neglect is the failure to provide appropriate health care for a child (although financially able to do so), thus placing the child at risk of being seriously disabled or disfigured or dying. According to NCANDS, in 2005, 2 percent of children (17,637 children) in the United States were victims of medical neglect (USDHHS, 2007). Concern is warranted not only when a parent refuses medical care for a child in an emergency or for an acute illness, but also when a parent ignores medical recommendations for a child with a treatable chronic disease or disability, resulting in frequent hospitalizations or significant deterioration.

Even in non-emergency situations, medical neglect can result in poor overall health and compounded medical problems.

Parents may refuse medical care for their children for different reasons religious beliefs, fear or anxiety about a medical condition or treatment, or financial issues. Child protective services agencies generally will intervene when:

• Medical treatment is needed in an acute emergency (e.g., a child needs a blood transfusion to treat shock);
• A child with a life-threatening chronic disease is not receiving needed medical treatment (e.g., a child with diabetes is not receiving medication); or
• A child has a chronic disease that can cause disability or disfigurement if left untreated (e.g., a child with congenital cataracts needs surgery to prevent blindness).

Being transgender puts you at the highest risk of suicidality. Since you say that you're already so depressed that it's seriously impacting your life, then you are not far away from contemplating suicide.

According a study done by the Virginia Department of Health: http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/epidemiology/diseaseprevention/documents/pdf/THISFINALREPORTVol1.pdf (http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/epidemiology/diseaseprevention/documents/pdf/THISFINALREPORTVol1.pdf)

QuoteNearly two-thirds (65%) of participants reported ever having thoughts of killing themselves, including 79% of the FTMs and 58% of the MTFs. Among MTFs reporting suicidal ideation, 62% felt their gender issues were either most of or the main reason for their suicidal ideation, compared to 39% of 23 FTMs. Among the 223 participants reporting suicidal ideation, 89 (41%) made suicide attempts – or 25% of the entire sample. Among those who thought about killing themselves, the suicide attempt rates were similar for FTMs (43%) and MTFs (41%). One-third of those attempting suicide had made one attempt; another 30% had made two attempts; 16% made 3 attempts; 14% made 4 to 9 attempts; and 8% made 10 or more attempts. The median age for the first suicide attempt was 15 years for FTMs and 16 years for MTFs. The median age for the last suicide attempt was 20 years for FTMs and 22 years for MTFs.

According to a report on another recent study:
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/staggering_rate_of_attempted_suicides_by_transgenders_highlights_injustices (http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/staggering_rate_of_attempted_suicides_by_transgenders_highlights_injustices)

QuoteA "staggering" 41 percent of the more than 6,400 respondents said they had attempted suicide, compared to a rate of 1.6 percent for the general population, according to the survey (PDF) by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Center for Transgender Equality.

Please understand that I am not joking or being melodramatic. My parents (who are also Asian) abused and neglected me throughout my entire childhood and adolescence and left me with deep psychological issues that I will have to manage for the rest of my life, on top of the gender dysphoria. That is why I am so sensitive to child mistreatment; I have no tolerance for it. Please don't let it happen to you.

Here is the official policy statement of the American Psychiatric Association regarding transgender patients: http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Advocacy%20and%20Newsroom/Position%20Statements/ps2012_TransgenderCare.pdf (http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Advocacy%20and%20Newsroom/Position%20Statements/ps2012_TransgenderCare.pdf)

QuoteSignificant and long-standing medical and psychiatric literature exists that demonstrates clear benefits of medical and surgical interventions to assist gender variant individuals seeking transition.
...
Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association:

• Recognizes that appropriately evaluated transgender and gender variant individuals can benefit greatly from medical and surgical gender transition treatments.
• Advocates for removal of barriers to care and supports both public and private health insurance coverage for gender transition treatment.
• Opposes categorical exclusions of coverage for such medically necessary treatment when prescribed by a physician.

As I previously mentioned, a massive update to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is developed by the American Psychiatric Association, was published this year. In their fact sheets about the DSM, here is what they say about gender dysphoria:
http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Gender%20Dysphoria%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf (http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Gender%20Dysphoria%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf)

QuoteIt is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.

http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Practice/DSM/DSM-5/Changes-from-DSM-IV-TR--to-DSM-5.pdf (http://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Practice/DSM/DSM-5/Changes-from-DSM-IV-TR--to-DSM-5.pdf)

QuoteGender identity disorder, however, is neither a sexual dysfunction nor a paraphilia. Gender dysphoria is a unique condition in that it is a diagnosis made by mental health care providers, although a large proportion of the treatment is endocrinological and surgical (at least for some adolescents and most adults).

Here is the official policy statement of the American Psychological Association regarding transgender patients: http://www.apa.org/about/policy/transgender.aspx (http://www.apa.org/about/policy/transgender.aspx)

QuoteTherefore be it further resolved that APA recognizes the efficacy, benefit and medical necessity of gender transition treatments for appropriately evaluated individuals and calls upon public and private insurers to cover these medically necessary treatments;

Therefore be it further resolved that APA supports access to appropriate treatment in institutional settings for people of all gender identities and expressions; including access to appropriate health care services including gender transition therapies;

Here is the official policy statement of the American Medical Association regarding transgender patients:
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/16/a08_hod_resolutions.pdf (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/16/a08_hod_resolutions.pdf)

QuoteWhereas, An established body of medical research demonstrates the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery as forms of therapeutic treatment for many people diagnosed with GID; and

Whereas, Health experts in GID, including WPATH, have rejected the myth that such treatments are "cosmetic" or "experimental" and have recognized that these treatments can provide safe and effective treatment for a serious health condition;7 and
...
Whereas, GID, if left untreated, can result in clinically significant psychological distress, dysfunction, debilitating depression and, for some people without access to appropriate medical care and treatment, suicidality and death; and
...
Whereas, Delaying treatment for GID can cause and/or aggravate additional serious and expensive health problems, such as stress-related physical illnesses, depression, and substance abuse problems, which further endanger patients' health and strain the health care system; therefore be it

Here are various publications by the American Academy of Family Physicians regarding transgender patients: http://www.aafp.org/online/etc/medialib/aafp_org/documents/membership/special/2007resolutions.Par.0001.File.tmp/2007NCSCSummActions-new-seal.pdf (http://www.aafp.org/online/etc/medialib/aafp_org/documents/membership/special/2007resolutions.Par.0001.File.tmp/2007NCSCSummActions-new-seal.pdf)

QuoteRESOLVED, That the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) make available online resources to educate family physicians about the evaluation, treatment, and management of transgender individuals throughout the transitioning process, including specifics on hormone therapy and health maintenance.

http://www.aafp.org/online/etc/medialib/aafp_org/documents/about/rap/curriculum/lgbthealth.Par.0001.File.tmp/lgbt-health-curriculum-guidelines.pdf (http://www.aafp.org/online/etc/medialib/aafp_org/documents/about/rap/curriculum/lgbthealth.Par.0001.File.tmp/lgbt-health-curriculum-guidelines.pdf)

QuoteManaging the transitional healthcare of transgender patients of all ages through either hormone administration or appropriate referral, as well as referral to any necessary mental health services and/or gender affirmation surgeries and related follow-up care.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2006/0915/p924.html (http://www.aafp.org/afp/2006/0915/p924.html)

QuoteTo be eligible for treatment, patients must work with mental health professionals skilled in the diagnosis and treatment of GID. After months or years of counseling, the patient begins real-life gender role experience combined with or followed by hormonal therapy and possibly surgery.
...
Although hormonal therapy and surgery carry risks of life-threatening complications, failure to treat patients with GID carries risks of depression and high rates of substance abuse and suicide, especially in young adults.

Here is the official policy statement of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists regarding transgender patients: http://www.acog.org/About_ACOG/ACOG_Departments/Health_Care_for_Underserved_Women/Committee_Opinion_Health_Care_for_Transgender_Individuals (http://www.acog.org/About_ACOG/ACOG_Departments/Health_Care_for_Underserved_Women/Committee_Opinion_Health_Care_for_Transgender_Individuals)

QuoteAlthough the care for these patients is often managed by a specialty team, obstetrician–gynecologists should be prepared to assist or refer transgender individuals with routine treatment and screening as well as hormonal and surgical therapies.

Here is the official policy statement of the National Association of Social Workers regarding transgender patients: http://www.socialworkers.org/da/da2008/finalvoting/documents/Transgender%202nd%20round%20-%20Clean.pdf (http://www.socialworkers.org/da/da2008/finalvoting/documents/Transgender%202nd%20round%20-%20Clean.pdf)

QuoteThis body dysphoria (known as gender dysphoria) causes significant distress, negatively impacts daily functioning and well-being, and requires medical services in order to realign the body with the self. Although there are many transgender people with medically diagnosed intersex conditions (Xavier, Honnold & Bradford, 2007) most people with intersex conditions are not transgender. (Intersex Society of North America, n.d.; Koyama, n.d.).
...
To align the physical body with the experienced sense of self, usually as an integral part of social transition away from the sex assigned at birth, transsexuals and some other individuals require medical services (for example, hormone replacement, facial electrolysis, or surgical and other procedures, as appropriate to the individual).
...
The diagnosis is vague regarding the medical necessity for and demonstrated success of treatment, particularly medically assisted transsexual transition, which prevents insurance reimbursements for care, and leaves transgender youth and adults alike vulnerable to so-called reparative‖ treatment.
...
Unfortunately, most in our society have little or no understanding of the profound discomfort some may feel in trying to conform to rigid gender roles assigned to them by virtue of their physiology. Similarly, ignorance and insensitivity prevails regarding the debilitating distress that accompanies body dysphoria, and the damage done to those left without access to medical and social transition.
...
Social workers should be partnered with the transgender community to modify laws, medical protocols, research, and policies, in ways that preserve and protect the quality of life for transgender, transsexual, and gender nonconforming citizens.
...
NASW supports the rights of all individuals to receive health insurance and other health coverage without discrimination on the basis of gender identity, and specifically without exclusion of services related to transgender or transsexual transition (or sex change), in order to receive medical and mental health services through their primary care physician and the appropriate referrals to medical specialists, which may include hormone replacement therapy, surgical interventions, prosthetic devices, and other medical procedures. NASW encourages the development of an appropriate, non-stigmatizing medical diagnosis for transgender individuals whose self-experienced sex/gender does not match the sex assigned at birth and who require medical services to align the body with the experienced self.

And finally, from the American Public Health Association's the official policy statement regarding transgender patients: http://www.apha.org/advocacy/policy/policysearch/default.htm?id=204 (http://www.apha.org/advocacy/policy/policysearch/default.htm?id=204)

QuoteNoting that medical procedures are conducted upon many children and adolescents with little understanding of their long-term outcome often resulting in pain and distress, and examples of this are that (a) Gender Identity Disorder within the DSM-IV is misused by some health care professionals to treat "pre-homosexual" and "pre-transsexual" children and adolescents so as to promote their development into nontranssexual, heterosexual adults,

I have provided you with official documents from the highest relevant authorities in the United States. I urge you to share them with your parents to make them understand how serious this is. I furthermore urge you to explicitly state that you will report them for child neglect if they refuse to allow you access to treatments that are prescribed in accordance to the official policies of the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Family Physicians, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and the National Association of Social Workers. Remember, this is not a baseless threat because your parents are BREAKING THE LAW if they do that to you. I cannot make it more clear.

I'm sorry for going overboard on the bolding, LOL.

I don't want to disagree with the severity of neglecting this, but I don't think any parent would find themselves in trouble with social services for not allowing their child to transition.  Having said that, if you are in a depressed state and need mental treatment at the moment, you can fight for that.  Right now, tell your parents you need help with your depression and that you can't keep it in.  Then focus on that and have the doctor pay attention to your gender issues.  It's likely that you will be able to get someone in the medical field on your side that may be able to help you.  Take one step at a time.  I think that may be the best step for you at this time.

I'm a lawyer and a near middle aged trans woman struggling to find my off ramp from male life even with a supportive wife.  I knew when I was young, before the days of even the early Internet and I can say the fear of my parents was critical in my half a life delay.  I mention I'm a lawyer only to say that's one damn persuasive post.  One Lavini should use (maybe not the breaking the law threat just yet but for damn sure the experts).  I mention my age and position only to buttress the point that parents can inflict significant harm in this process as well.

So, if the doctor tells me to transition, and my parents don't let me do it, they are breaking the law? o.o That's kind of mind-blowing.
I'm not going to show them right now, though. I'm going to show them after the doctor says I need to transition because they won't even consider my thoughts at the moment >:(
Also, my mom thinks that I'm "not depressed" because I was just reading what Silvermist said and I laughed a little because I was surprised, and my mom (who's nearby watching TV) is like "Honey, you're not depressed. See? You can laugh." Seriously...WTF?
Oh well...I'll just have to hope the doctor has training in this field of gender dysphoria so that my parents can shut up with their BS theories.

Quote from: lavini557 on August 04, 2013, 08:42:29 PM
So, if the doctor tells me to transition, and my parents don't let me do it, they are breaking the law? o.o That's kind of mind-blowing.
I'm not going to show them right now, though. I'm going to show them after the doctor says I need to transition because they won't even consider my thoughts at the moment >:(
Also, my mom thinks that I'm "not depressed" because I was just reading what Silvermist said and I laughed a little because I was surprised, and my mom (who's nearby watching TV) is like "Honey, you're not depressed. See? You can laugh." Seriously...WTF?
Oh well...I'll just have to hope the doctor has training in this field of gender dysphoria so that my parents can shut up with their BS theories.

To be honest, I'm not sure if you have legal remedies to make your parents allow you to transition.  I'm not an authority on that so my opinion is only opinion.  There are child protection laws and parents are expected to get their child life saving treatments.  Whether transitioning will fall under that is very doubtful to me. 

Having said that, it is important that you get help for your depression.  If your parents ignore that you feel depressed and won't allow you to see a therapist, you can always talk to a counselor or a social worker at your school.  As you are younger, there are services available for you to take advantage of.  I can't say this will lead to transitioning prior to adulthood, but this may allow you to discuss the depression issues with someone and that will help and may communicate your feelings to your parents. 

Quote from: learningtolive on August 04, 2013, 08:23:10 PMI don't want to disagree with the severity of neglecting this, but I don't think any parent would find themselves in trouble with social services for not allowing their child to transition.

Quote from: learningtoliveTo be honest, I'm not sure if you have legal remedies to make your parents allow you to transition.  I'm not an authority on that so my opinion is only opinion.  There are child protection laws and parents are expected to get their child life saving treatments.  Whether transitioning will fall under that is very doubtful to me.

Why don't we try it and see? There is not a legal weakness in the case. If you think that there is such a weakness, then please explain what it is.

The law is clear. Medical professionals are clear. If, for example, there are parents who refuse to allow treatments for life-threatening conditions like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, then wouldn't that qualify as criminal child abuse/neglect on their part? And if we all continue to believe that transition is not on par with treatments for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, then we will never be taken as seriously as our condition deserves because we won't fight for that recognition. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you see? Child abuse is child abuse. It can never be taken seriously enough, because the shocking volume of child mistreatment in this country proves that people are all too willing to dismiss cases that don't conform to the stereotype of beating or rape.

It only takes ONE major court case. Do you know of Lawrence v. Texas? That was the Supreme Court case in 2003 (ONLY TEN years ago) that overturned anti-sodomy laws for the country. How long have tens of millions of Americans been practicing "sodomy"? Who took such laws seriously until they were challenged in court?

Quote from: Silvermist on August 04, 2013, 09:03:55 PM
Why don't we try it and see? There is not a legal weakness in the case. If you think that there is such a weakness, then please explain what it is.

The law is clear. Medical professionals are clear. If, for example, there are parents who refuse to allow treatments for life-threatening conditions like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, then wouldn't that qualify as criminal child abuse/neglect on their part? And if we all continue to believe that transition is not on par with treatments for bipolar disorder, then we will never be taken as seriously as our condition deserves because we won't fight for that recognition. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you see? Child abuse is child abuse. It can never be taken seriously enough, because the shocking volume of child mistreatment in this country proves that people are all too willing to dismiss cases that don't conform to the stereotype of beating or rape.

It only takes ONE major court case. Do you know of Lawrence v. Texas? That was the Supreme Court case in 2003 (ONLY TEN years ago) that overturned anti-sodomy laws for the country. How long have tens of millions of Americans been practicing "sodomy"? Who took such laws seriously until they were challenged in court?

I agree with you from a supportive standpoint, but I'm not sure if one has the legal ability to make their parents support transitioning.  That was all I was saying.  I think you do raise important issues by letting the op know that she can report child abuse if she feels she needs to exercise her legal protections or is in need of  intervention.

As for anti sodomy laws,  Lawrence V. Texas  came after Bowers V Hardwick.  They were taken seriously for a long time unfortunately. Nonetheless, that is distinct from the topic at hand.  The OP is looking for what can be done in the here and now, and I don't want to tell her it is against the law for their parents to prevent her from transitioning if I don't know whether it is or is not.  I'm not a lawyer or a police office, so that is beyond my place to answer as I have no right to pretend I have credentials that I lack. 

Again, I agree with your sentiments and agree that child abuse is a serious issue.  If the op feels that she is being abused in any way, she should make sure to report it asap.  That's why I suggest the school social worker as they are best able to intervene in these manners.  The doctors can do so as well.  There are many ways for her to remedy the situation and ensure she gets medical help she deserves. No child should suffer from depression and not get the help they need. 

OP,

I wanted to throw it out there that you can contact some great organizations to find out any legal information on transgender minors.  Most of the information I have heard/read says that things like hormones require parental consent if you are under 18, but they would better serve you than any of us on the forums if you are interested in the legal aspects of transgender minors.  I did a quick search and didn't find much information that said a child could use the force of law to sway their parents to get treatment for GID in general, but I don't know for certain.  That's why I recommend you contact legal professionals that fight for the rights of LGBT individuals as they could give you a more definitive answer.  Here are some:

The ACLU
Human Rights Campaign
LAMBDA Legal
National Center for Transgender Equality

As for right now, I would make sure that you get help for your depression.  If your parents won't let you see a therapist and you still feel depressed, please reach out to a school counselor or social worker.  While I can't guarantee anything about transitioning, as I don't know, you should be able to get access to the mental care that you deserve and need. You will be okay and you will move forward wonderfully in life.   Good luck with everything. :)

Sadly it is unlikely to be cut and dried and being the seminal case to prove a legal principle is not a helpful place to be (though extremely helpful for those that follow).  I highly doubt one would be thrown in jail or lose parental rights for refusing to medicate a bipolar child (FYI that too is a recent admission by the medical community, that children can suffer from it).  I highly doubt your parents will get in trouble for refusing to help here either.  Sad, but likely true in many states.

The art of persuasion involves a study of your rights and your legal standing, sure. However, like in many areas of the law, what you have here is a pure negotiation. 

Do you need them?

If so, what will persuade them?

That's it.

The more adept you are at understanding human behavior and within that understanding the unique approach of your parents as individuals and as a couple together (for example which one influences the other), the better chance you have to obtain what you want.

The foregoing is best stated with a phrase I use all the time, "would you rather say what you want to say or get what you want to get?"

If you need them, figure out what they need to see and hear and give them that.  To that end, I highly doubt threats of intervention for the neglect of a child will get you what you want, I mean what you need.