What do you think of my dad's argument against transgenders?

[Edge]

He says that being happy as a transsexual will only last 5 years. 10, if you're lucky. After that, life goes downhill. No one will like you because you are "not normal".

You will be forever alone, and you will be depressed and regret your decision.

I highly doubt your father can predict the future any more than anyone else can.

Nor will your family.

This he can predict since it refers to his own actions. However, his actions are his responsibility. I suggest living for yourself, not for him. He also can't speak for any other members of your family.

Why would they, when you think such "abnormal" thoughts and "absolutely crazy"?

If he is speaking as someone who took a psychology course, then he should know that "crazy" is the wrong term. Either way, psychologists and psychiatrists who specialize in gender issues (and who have taken many more psych courses than your father) are aware that being transgender does not mean someone is mentally ill.

You will also die early because of harmful hormones.

Again with the fortune telling. Although there are health risks one needs to watch out for while taking hormones, they are not nearly as dire and certain as he says.

The reason they only show trans that are in their 20s and 30s is because the ones beyond their 50s are the ones that aren't happy, while the ones in their 20s and 30s are (because they are still in their short period of happiness).

I will leave this for the more experienced ladies and gents to answer. I assure you, there are plenty of happy people around.

No one will be your friend.

Again with the fortune telling. Not to mention, who is he to speak for everyone?

99.99999% (Yes, he did say a lot of 9s, but I don't exactly remember how many. I think that you all will get what's he's saying, though) of the people in this world only like people that are normal. The 0.000001% that do like things that aren't normal are just crazy.

Those statistics are made up. He also cannot speak for the rest of the people in this world.

Also, the ones that support their children changing genders are either crazy or don't care about them.

Supporting one's child is not crazy. Preferring their child to be happy and alive is not crazy. These are the parents that care about their children.

When they change, they become a "nobody" to them.

I don't think he understands what support means.

The only legitimate reason that would be reasonable enough to let someone change genders is when they have a serious hormonal balance issue.

The theory is that this is the case for transgender people.

They have so much hormones of the other gender that (in a male's case) they do not have body hair and their penis is almost non-existent. Other reasons are not good enough, and they will just regret their decision.

Psychologists and psychiatrists agree that being transgender is a good enough reason to transition and do, in fact, support it and transitioning is seen as the most effective treatment.

[Ltl89]

EVERYONE who went to college (just about) took a psychology course. I don't think most of them even talk about transgender. And if it did, it's full of sh** and so is your dad.

Maybe all of a sudden 5  years on, I will lose all my friends and so on-- for real?!  I am more social transitioning than I was before, also more popular. I didn't date pre-transition and I do now.

--Jay

I took a few astronomy courses in college.  Now I am a world renowned astronomer. 

Seriously taking one college course on a subject does not make you an expert or an authority in that area. 

[Tawny]

Hello everyone,
I am posting this because I asked my father tonight what his argument is for why I should not become a female (I'm male right now). This is (pretty much) his argument, translated from Korean and summarized:

He says that being happy as a transsexual will only last 5 years. 10, if you're lucky. After that, life goes downhill. No one will like you because you are "not normal".

That makes no sense right off the bat. The beginning is the unhappiest part of the whole deal! The longer it's been since transitioning begun, the more normal you'll seem. (Assuming you're aiming for normal )

Nor will your family. Why would they, when you think such "abnormal" thoughts and "absolutely crazy"? You will be forever alone, and you will be depressed and regret your decision. You will also die early because of harmful hormones. The reason they only show trans that are in their 20s and 30s is because the ones beyond their 50s are the ones that aren't happy, while the ones in their 20s and 30s are (because they are still in their short period of happiness).

This literally makes no sense. He has nothing to back up the claim that it's "absolutely crazy", and I've already dismantled this supposed "period of happiness" thing. In addition, only showing transsexuals in their 20s and 30s? Since when? The older transsexuals tend to be happier, from what I've seen, even the ones who have started transitioning late in life.

Of course, there are many more transsexuals now, because society is friendlier to them now, if not friendly enough, and transgender people who otherwise would have kept it repressed all their lives are able to come out and transition. There are plenty of older transsexuals though, including those who transitioned in their 20s.

Lynn Conway is a pretty good counterexample to pretty much all the nonsense he spouted. She's 75 years old, and she transitioned when she was 30, in 1968. Still healthy, and a very successful computer scientist and engineer.

No one will be your friend. 99.99999% (Yes, he did say a lot of 9s, but I don't exactly remember how many. I think that you all will get what's he's saying, though) of the people in this world only like people that are normal. The 0.000001% that do like things that aren't normal are just crazy. Also, the ones that support their children changing genders are either crazy or don't care about them. When they change, they become a "nobody" to them.

Well, that's just nonsense. I'm sure on some level you can recognize how absurd it is, though I understand feeling a little unsure and insecure. Notice that he doesn't bother to back any of it up, and just makes these outlandish claims.

I'm guessing that you're fairly young, since you're even bothering with any of this nonsense. Here's the deal: He's vastly exaggerating how many people are as severely transphobic as he is, to try and scare you, and besides, since you're young it's likely that you can completely "pass" within a reasonable timeframe, and would never have to be out in the first place, even assuming all your friends ditch you because they're jerks and you have to get new friends.

The only legitimate reason that would be reasonable enough to let someone change genders is when they have a serious hormonal balance issue. They have so much hormones of the other gender that (in a male's case) they do not have body hair and their penis is almost non-existent. Other reasons are not good enough, and they will just regret their decision.

"Other reasons are not good enough"

Okay... and?

I'm seeing a theme here, where he just makes these claims and then offers up no reason as to why they're true.

I would like to know other people's opinion on this argument. Just saying, but he also took a psychology course, which is why he knows all this stuff (or so he says *shrug*) .

My opinion: Laughably stupid. The vast majority of those with actual degrees in psychology disagree with him, and he is using some supposed course in college that anyone can take, that wouldn't have even addressed anything like this, to back up ludicrous claims.

I'm not a fan of "white lies", and love playing devil's advocate, but seriously, your father is out of his mind. He's just scared and doesn't like this part of you, and he's trying to scare you into getting rid of it.

[JillSter]

No one will be your friend. 99.99999% ... of the people in this world only like people that are normal.

Count me in the 0.00001%! 

99.99999% of his statistical claims lack empirical support.

Maddy

ROFL!


Seriously, when people give statistics you can usually translate it as, "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm really very passionate about this!"

I do agree that transition is not something to rush into, and you do have to consider how difficult it can be both during and after. Although, if you need it and you keep talking yourself out of it because you're afraid, you only hurt yourself more. So I think it's about figuring out what you really need to do and doing it. And if someone refuses to be a part of your life anymore because you transitioned, that's on them. You can't force people to be compassionate and understanding. You can't force people to love you unconditionally. You can only hope that when you do what you need to do for your own quality of life and peace of mind that they'll stand by you because they love you more than they love their worldview.

[lavini557]

So reading all these replies, it seems like my dad is just using fear and no facts. That's cool, but I have another question (don't know if this is off-topic, but I don't think it is): Do you think I can start transitioning before college/university?
I mean, my parents are obviously scared of me transitioning, so they don't want me to transition. But does that necessarily mean that I can't transition before I go off to college? I would prefer that I start before college/university. In the very least, I would like to see a psychiatrist (or whatever they're called  ). However, my parents don't like that because:
1. Apparently, they think psychiatrists are just greedy people that just want your money and don't care about you o.o (ex. "Okay you can change because I don't give a crap about you. Now gimme your money")
2. At the moment I'm meeting my dentist and other doctors for braces, and psychiatrists cost a lot of money (apparently). So my mom is constantly using that to make me not transition (I partially expected this kind of thing but... oh well)
Is there anything I can do right now about transitioning? Or am I seriously stuck right now?

[Silvermist]

Do you think I can start transitioning before college/university?
I mean, my parents are obviously scared of me transitioning, so they don't want me to transition. But does that necessarily mean that I can't transition before I go off to college? I would prefer that I start before college/university. In the very least, I would like to see a psychiatrist (or whatever they're called  ).

The only way that I can imagine is if you have access to a form of transportation that your parents can't control, and you get a job to make some money so that you can go to a therapist on your own and pay for it on your own. Many therapists use sliding-scale pricing, so you might be able to see one for $75-125 per hour-long session.

1. Apparently, they think psychiatrists are just greedy people that just want your money and don't care about you o.o (ex. "Okay you can change because I don't give a crap about you. Now gimme your money")

Anyone can say that about any kind of doctor. For example, when my dentist told me to get my wisdom teeth removed, my father claimed that I was being scammed. Seriously.

2. At the moment I'm meeting my dentist and other doctors for braces, and psychiatrists cost a lot of money (apparently). So my mom is constantly using that to make me not transition (I partially expected this kind of thing but... oh well)
Is there anything I can do right now about transitioning? Or am I seriously stuck right now?

You can build a new wardrobe. You can practice changing your voice (and watch YouTube videos for guidance). You can work on mannerisms, body language, and posture, walk, and verbal expression. There are so many things to be done in a transition that have nothing to do with hormones or surgery.

[aleon515]

I took a few astronomy courses in college.  Now I am a world renowned astronomer. 

Seriously taking one college course on a subject does not make you an expert or an authority in that area.

Hmm, never thought of it this way. i have taken FOUR geology classes. Should be ready for mining the moon.

>99.99999% of his statistical claims lack empirical support.

Hilarious!

Oh well, this thread is giving me a good laugh at your poor dad's expense.

I think fear, within limits, can be good because it makes us cautious. OTOH it can be paralyzing. I agree some psychiatrists are greedy and care nothing for you. It's like professionals in any field, there are bad ones and good ones. Sounds like they are on to more monetary factors in trying to keep you from transitioning. Some of this might be real, but since it is not what they started with, I tend to not believe it too much.

If it were all monetary, they would have said, "we can't help you right now with the money, but what can we do right now to help you". They would work on calling you by correct names and pronouns and so on.




--Jay

[Sir Real]

I've been working through an initial therapy teaching of life coping skills. One of the first things we learned is self-care. Another thing we learned more recently is boundaries. Every person has their own history, emotions, beliefs, etc etc etc inside the boundary called "you". Think of it like a box that is you and boxes that are others. If you break down that boundary wall of your box and start letting other people start telling you what your experiences, emotions, beliefs etc are or should be, then that sense of self starts to fall out. That's why you will find people who don't really know what they want or what they like and rely on others so much for approval and happiness - they've had other people dictating it for so long.  And self care is definitely not selfish. Apparently the word selfish is only found in English (I want to double check that). Putting yourself as your first priority is not selfish, it's your responsibility. No one else is going to do it. If you put yourself at the bottom of your list, you might never get enough care. Guess where that could lead. It could be burnout, emotional breakdown... But nothing good. Worst of all, people don't get the gift that is you anymore.

If your dad was really thinking from a psychological perspective he wouldn't be thinking about an unknown future and essentially put words and beliefs into the mouths of nearly every single human being alive on this earth right now and calling everyone who didn't think like him crazy. He would have been thinking of how this would, and has been affecting you psychologically. But he wasn't. I would urge you to take the time and do that for yourself.  What everyone else has been saying is that there are people who will love and accept you for the beautiful person you are. Find the road that is right for YOU. No one else can find or walk that path.

-Asa

[Ltl89]

So reading all these replies, it seems like my dad is just using fear and no facts. That's cool, but I have another question (don't know if this is off-topic, but I don't think it is): Do you think I can start transitioning before college/university?
I mean, my parents are obviously scared of me transitioning, so they don't want me to transition. But does that necessarily mean that I can't transition before I go off to college? I would prefer that I start before college/university. In the very least, I would like to see a psychiatrist (or whatever they're called  ). However, my parents don't like that because:
1. Apparently, they think psychiatrists are just greedy people that just want your money and don't care about you o.o (ex. "Okay you can change because I don't give a crap about you. Now gimme your money")
2. At the moment I'm meeting my dentist and other doctors for braces, and psychiatrists cost a lot of money (apparently). So my mom is constantly using that to make me not transition (I partially expected this kind of thing but... oh well)
Is there anything I can do right now about transitioning? Or am I seriously stuck right now?

Without knowing your situation, I can't tell you if you could transition before college.  It's up to you and/or your current circumstances.  When  do you plan on going to college?  Do you want to wait a little after high school or jump right in?  Do you think your parents will help and allow you to transition?  Do you want to save up money and transition before college?  This will take some time.  I'm assuming you are younger, so these are factors you have to consider.  It's rough, I know, but it's best to prepare an consider what you can and can't do.  I'm 24 and still have difficulties with my transition because I live at home and there are rules I must obey while under my mom's roof.  Keep in mind that it is possible to transition in college.  I have a friend who did that, though she took a break for that year.

As for doctors being in it for the money, that isn't really fair.  The amount of education and training involved in being a psychiatrist is very detailed.  I don't believe that someone would get involved in that field if there heart wasn't into it.  Otherwise, they won't make it through med school.  Sure, they want to be paid for their service as any other professional would, but that doesn't mean that they don't care about their patients or lack the proper insight to help them. 

Yes, it is wise to consider your other expenses.  Transitioning is wonderful for the right person, but it is never easy on the pocketbook.  I have rushed into my transition, financially speaking, and know that it is wise to think about how you will actually make it out.  I don't regret what I have done and glad I haven't waited, but all the same, I would have preferred to have been on a more stable financial footing.  Having said that, there are always ways to make things swing.  It just takes some planning and work.  Is there anything you could do so that you can afford starting? 

[Jamie D]

SNIP

I would like to know other people's opinion on this argument. Just saying, but he also took a psychology course, which is why he knows all this stuff (or so he says *shrug*) .

There is a saying: "A little knowledge is dangerous."

If that is so, then your father just might be the most dangerous man in the world.

[Pia Bianca]

Either way, psychologists and psychiatrists who specialize in gender issues (and who have taken many more psych courses than your father) are aware that being transgender does not mean someone is mentally ill.

They once thought it was a mental illness and tried to cure it. They weren't successful in any of their tries and many human beings paid the price (while neither of those were therapists).

Now some of them seem to be more experienced. They accepted that it still might be a mental illness, but that nobody seems to be able to cure it. I wonder what the reason is. But whatever, some few realized what's going on. Nevertheless, we now get the treatment we need.

Apart from that I totally agree with Jamie.

[Northern Jane]

Do you think I can start transitioning before college/university? ......... Is there anything I can do right now about transitioning? Or am I seriously stuck right now?

I managed to find a doctor to start me on HRT when I was 17 (without parental consent) and I went away to college at 19 (to get away from home) - it was the perfect time to transition!

I went in 1969 so there was no way to legally change anything at  that  time so I went "gender-less" - only the college registrar knew my situation. I went by my initials and family name and nobody knew if I was male or female - though most figured I was female. It was absolutely PERFECT and my college transcript was perfectly usable after transition. The college crowd tend to be a lot more informed and open-minded than folks in general.

[Silvermist]

Now some of them seem to be more experienced. They accepted that it still might be a mental illness, but that nobody seems to be able to cure it. I wonder what the reason is. But whatever, some few realized what's going on. Nevertheless, we now get the treatment we need.

Among professional (i.e., certified) psychiatrists (and other mental health workers), the only ones who view gender dysphoria as a mental illness (in the way that you mean) are quacks, and they are very few these days. Although "gender identity disorder" was listed in the DSM IV for many years, it was not described as a delusion, and the recommended treatment (for the past four decades) has been transition. In other words, transitioning is now accepted as the cure for gender dysphoria. You can find plenty of papers in psychology, psychiatry, and sociology journals that show the success rate to be over 90%. Many treatments for physical disorders don't even have success rates that are so high.

The recently-released DSM V has corrected many of the problems with the DSM IV description. There is now a clear understanding that being transgender is not in itself a mental disorder, but those people who feel so distressed by living as their gender-assigned-at-birth that it impairs their ability to function socially, professionally, sexually, etc. do require intervention.

What laypeople don't understand is that mental health professionals (at least competent ones) do not think in terms of "crazy" versus "sane." They're educated and experienced enough to know that there are huge variations in healthy human psychology, and they see their job as helping those whose issues have serious negative impacts on quality of life. For example, if you believe that you're the Emperor of the United States and are perfectly happy and don't harm yourself or others, then mental health professionals would be merely amused rather than demanding that you be institutionalized.

[VeryGnawty]

EVERYONE who went to college (just about) took a psychology course. I don't think most of them even talk about transgender. And if it did, it's full of sh** and so is your dad.

I was planning on majoring in psychology before I quit college.  I don't remember ANY of my psychology classes talking about ->-bleeped-<-.  Like, at all.

[Pia Bianca]

@Silvermist

While I agree with you in principal, I have to disagree on the detailed view. I can accept that most trained and versed therapists might give you the right cure. Nevertheless I'd say that a majority doesn't do that because they are convinced; rather because they accept the written word.

For myself that means I'll go to a therapist whom I was assured that she is trans-friendly. I think that makes a difference, though your mileage may vary.

[Silvermist]

Nevertheless I'd say that a majority doesn't do that because they are convinced; rather because they accept the written word.

What is the difference? If you're a physician or clinician of any kind, then you read the latest research in your field in order to learn how to better help your patients. It's a learning process, not a judgment process. "Accepting the written word," as you say, means being convinced (as far as doctors are concerned). Otherwise, you just wouldn't accept it because you don't believe that it would better help your patients. Why would you accept something if you weren't convinced that it would help your patients?

I know that there is a lot of transphobia and ignorance in the world, but I think that we sometimes take the "world is against us" perspective a bit too far. Being too paranoid can be unhealthy.

The reason why most mental health professionals are unhelpful to trans people is because they lack the proper training and experience to offer the right treatment. At that point, it becomes an issue of professional ethics, not personal convictions. To use an analogy, if you were a general practitioner and you have a patient who really needs surgery, are you going to perform the surgery yourself?

[Theo]

I was planning on majoring in psychology before I quit college.  I don't remember ANY of my psychology classes talking about ->-bleeped-<-.  Like, at all.

While I never took a psychology course, my mother actually has her PhD in the stuff. Trans? Nope, nada, nothing. Wasn't taught back then.
A good friend also studied psychology, and recently completed his psychotherapy certification on top of it. Trans? Ehm. He knows it exists, that's about the extent of the teaching.
Personal experience was also fun, as I did a therapy due to depression prior to realising certain stuff. 160 hours, mentioned that I'm a woman in many of my dreams, some of my fantasies, etc. Questions / suggestions with respect to me potentially being trans or anything similar: none.

When it came to my therapist for trans issues, I went out and looked for a psychiatrist, not a psychologist (wanted someone with actual medical training), who is specialised on the subject. Turns out I got lucky and ended up with one of the most senior people in the field, as she has not only been working with trans people since the early 80's, but is also regularly consulted by the government on the topic when it comes to policy making (which can play a bit of havoc with appointments, but that's a small price to pay imho).

[Redstar]

Interesting post!
As people have said he is using scare tactics as well as projecting his own biased views to dissuade you.But don't get me wrong some of what he says does represent how many people view a transitioned individual.I transitioned 10 years ago deciding to do it whilst i worked for the same company who had employed me for over 9 years.Now even the HR director asked me if it wouldn't be best to do it somewhere else,i work in a very macho engineering factory,but i stuck it out even though i used to get filthy looks from some and others who previously spoke to me now wouldn't.Fortunetely some did and some others i had never spoke to would tell me how much they admired me,swings and roundabouts.Luckily for me i used to get an awful lot of attention from men who didn't know of my history and i mean an awful lot of attention,which was scary at first but you soon get used to it:)I knew all my comerades thought i was in for a terrible life that would be disasterous but i can safely say that this has not happened.All of my boyfriends have been much younger than me and totally hetrosexual and they have all been long termish and i was always the one who broke it off.All of my BF's didn't know and i had to tell them after a few months about my history and do you know what?Every single one of them said "so what?"i suppose i have been very lucky...i duno!Now family well that has been a different matter all of them have been friendly enough but no invites to parties etc.weddings and funerals only.Even my workmates all love me but still no social invites,well except three guys and thats becuase they want to F me.thank god for my wonderful friends though,i say friends but i only have 5.
     But i had to transition there was no choice,before i did i was living a lie and killing myself slowly but now i am a completely different person,confident,outgoing,in yer face,party animal but i have still had awful experiences when people found out,awful experiences that open your eyes to how horrible and bitchy people can be.

[lavini557]

Thank you all for support  Right now I'm practicing my voice, as Silvermist suggested.
Something interesting came up though...my parents finally decided that i need to go to a doctor. They asked my family doctor about who to talk to (I'm going to assume he referred them to someone that is actually familiar with this gender stuff, because reading the replies, it seems that some doctors aren't trained in that field to do much). I think they also decided to go because I've been depressed lately...like to the point where I don't feel like doing anything
What's interesting, though, is that my mom is going there to "make the doctor change my mind". I guess it's because my family doctor said that they need to find the source of the issue (which makes sense, because he doesn't know if I really feel that way or just misguided). However, if Silvermist is not kidding about transitioning being an actual treatment for gender dysphoria, then my parents...well, they aren't going to be happy, that's for sure (I overheard my mom saying how she would SUE the doctor if he/she said anything "crazy"  )

[lavini557]

P.S. And I almost forgot but...how much does it cost to visit with or without insurance? My mom said that she might not go if insurance doesn't work, so I'm just wondering about prices.
Also, is it complete BS that my parents think that one of reasons I'm like this is because I'm getting into an age where I start to get interested in girls? I mean, I can sort of see how that works...but it still sounds like complete BS.