My wife is fighting tooth and nail to prevent me beginning the process of transition. I don't blame her for that. She's terrified about what will happen to her and our kids, and she's also frightened for me.
Whatever I may feel like on the inside, to the outside world I seem like someone who is very obviously male: 6ft tall, 180lbs, losing a little hair on top, often has a beard. Basically I'm one of the 'before' pics in the 'Before and after thread'.
My wife's convinced that the only possible 'after' would be a humiliating disaster. As far as she is concerned, no one born male who has a sex-change ever looks, or sounds, or acts remotely like a 'real' woman. If they think they do, they're conning themselves. If anyone else tells then they do, they're simply telling a white lie to be polite.
I tell myself that she's just trying to scare me. I remind myself of all the therapists, surgeons, voice coaches, etc, who've told me that it would take time - more time than I'd really like - and it would be tough, but I could come out at the other end as someone who fits into society as a female and is accepted as such.
But of course, she's striking at my weakest point. Because that's the thing that obsesses and scares us all - can we pass? Will people always give us odd/hostile/micking looks in the street? Will they always see the man that even the prettiest MTF sometimes sees when she looks in the mirror? And are we only ever kidding ourselves to think any different?
Because here's the thing ... I have seen, and heard and met MTFs and come away thinking. 'Who are you trying to kid?' That's partly because I'm hyper-sensitive to any sign of 'trans' ... and partly because there really are some TS's who don't pass. Maybe they don't care. Maybe they're living in blissful ignorance. But they don't pass.
So I come back to the question ... based on your personal experiences of yourselves and others, are we kidding ourselves, or can we really just transition, find our true selves, be accepted as women and get on with our lives?
well in my experience, almost two years after I went full time no one thinks I am nothing more than a cis woman. None of the friends I made after my transition knows about my past and no one even hinted anything of suspecting me being born as a male. I am 5'7" which is tall for women in south Asia.
AS far as voice in concern I have never called anything other than Miss or Maam over the phone and my sister's mother-in-law always mistake my voice over my sisters.
IMHO passing is more about confidence and acting natural rather than the looks and being ultra feminine. I always has been bit of a tomboy and I think I will always that person and I am not doing anything other than being my self. Only thing I worked on during my transition is my voice and other than that I didn't do anything other than being my self.
Even Though I pass all the time, I still see bits and pieces of my old self every time I look in the mirror and I alway think people can read me. But the thing is I am the only one see the faults in my look and for everyone else I am just a cis woman.
and to answer your question, I think passing is possible and I believe I pass well as a cis woman.
and to add to my post, last week end I had such a hard time explaining a physician why I don't have periods and finally I had to tell him I was born male and that is why I don't have periods LoL
In my experience many pass, some don't, and a lot depends on the person. The people I know personally who do pass usually put an immense amount of time in presentation, but also have confidence to own their gender in a way even some cis do not. Many also have spent tens of thousands of dollars on hair removal, ffs, voice, etc. A rare few are just lucky, but even the lucky ones who truly pass bust their rear ends.
If you are not a member of a local support group I would encourage you to find and join one. You will meet people of all stages of transition and presentation. You might also find that passing is not the full objective or goal you may think it is now. You might find that being you is more important than passing, and I'm not being snarky. Either way, meeting others in person will help you understand physical transition better.
I know I pass. All 5'11" of me. :)
I've put myself through several stress tests and come away victorious each time. Which makes me one of the insanely-lucky ones, I suppose...
If you want to convince your wife, I'd suggest taking her through the "Fabulous" thread, or finding some YouTube videos of successful transitions. Nothing convinces like hard evidence.
I walk into emergency rooms and want me to take pregnancy tests before I take xrays - or to sign waivers - how is that? - I try to tell them I am a lesbian and it does not matter but even that does not dissuade them I just sign the waiver - It does work out - it can be amazing how much HRT does work. and there are tall cis womyn
I have to be careful, my 'Aussie bluntness' can be misinterpreted.
I'll ask a question based on my life and my terror and my acceptance or lack of it.
"My wife's convinced that the only possible 'after' would be a humiliating disaster. As far as she is concerned, no one born male who has a sex-change ever looks, or sounds, or acts remotely like a 'real' woman. If they think they do, they're conning themselves. If anyone else tells then they do, they're simply telling a white lie to be polite."
Who gives a ->-bleeped-<-?
I don't pass but I'm alive.
I love me and accept me.
My society can think what the devil they want.
But I can now live.
Will I ever pass as some dolly woman, no way, but WHO CARES.
I look as bad as every other woman I meet, and I don't look like the women in the magazines.
No one does.
Women set themselves incredible standards and that is why young woman are tormented with body image.
We suffer that in spades!
Don't Worry!!!!!
It seems like that's often the reaction when someone finds out... I wonder if it's their own fears (or bigotry) talking.
I recommend checking out this thread as well : https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,117457.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,117457.0.html)
For me, the latest was being at the doctor's office, with bronchitis so my voice sounded like hell, topless as the nurse practitioner listened to my lungs - and she ended the appointment by harassing me rather aggressively to get a Pap smear because I've never had one according to my chart! I've also been told that when someone at work shares my story (and I wish people would stop doing THAT, sheesh) the listener sometimes argues with them. "You must mean [that masculine woman who works here]," and she's cis. Also, if your wife thinks the entire world is that polite, she's a bit optimistic. ;)
As an aside, the story from work also shows that people have a mental bias; they assume they know when someone is trans, and it's based on the people who seem "obviously trans." Then they remember only those people and are sure a) that they were right (since, in some cases, the masculine-looking woman is NOT trans) and b) all trans women look like that (because the ones who do blend in, are being overlooked).
Oh, and c), *after* they find out about her, they go searching for signs of past masculinity. Which you could find in anybody; my wife has broader shoulders, more muscles, and more brow bossing than I do. Heck, when people guess which of us is the trans woman, they're wrong more than half the time (because I'm a lot more "casual femme" than she is). Basically, there is a *huge* variation in women and womanhood, and there are cis women who get accosted in bathrooms and told to leave, too. It's perfectly understandable that you want to be one of the women who has less hassle in her life, and blending in is the best way to accomplish that. But not everyone feels that way, not even all cis women.
fear doesn't often create rational thinking.
Quote from: Cindy on July 31, 2013, 07:01:52 AM
I have to be careful, my 'Aussie bluntness' can be misinterpreted.
I'll ask a question based on my life and my terror and my acceptance or lack of it.
"My wife's convinced that the only possible 'after' would be a humiliating disaster. As far as she is concerned, no one born male who has a sex-change ever looks, or sounds, or acts remotely like a 'real' woman. If they think they do, they're conning themselves. If anyone else tells then they do, they're simply telling a white lie to be polite."
Who gives a ->-bleeped-<-?
I don't pass but I'm alive.
I love me and accept me.
My society can think what the devil they want.
But I can now live.
Will I ever pass as some dolly woman, no way, but WHO CARES.
I look as bad as every other woman I meet, and I don't look like the women in the magazines.
No one does.
Women set themselves incredible standards and that is why young woman are tormented with body image.
We suffer that in spades!
Don't Worry!!!!!
Strewth, Cindy, if your cricket team were half as gutsy, determined and feisty as you, they might even give England a game! ;)
Quote from: Carlita on July 31, 2013, 05:29:14 AMMy wife is fighting tooth and nail to prevent me beginning the process of transition. I don't blame her for that. She's terrified about what will happen to her and our kids, and she's also frightened for me.
Please let me offer some brutal honesty:
Your wife is NOT expressing genuine concern for you. That's not to say that she's selfish, but humans tend to be resistant to change, and that resistance can lead to resentment directed at the agent of the change. What does she fear will happen to herself and your children? They're just bystanders. I can't imagine that anything truly bad will happen to them other than being judged. Why should anyone live in fear of being judged?
When I came out to my mother, she said the same things: that she was afraid of a disastrous result (i.e., a bizarro mix of masculine and feminine that nobody would accept) and that all men who try to be women look like ridiculous caricatures to her. (I have a hard time taking the latter point at face value because, knowing how little exposure she has to the real world, I think that she was probably talking about ultra-femme gay guys, not MTFs.) She was trying to say that she feared for me, didn't want me to be rejected by society. (This in itself was offensive to me as it came from the mouth of someone who was emotionally abusive and neglectful during my entire childhood and adolescence.) In actuality, she was just expressing her prejudice and trying to emotionally manipulate me to submit to her will.
Emotional manipulation is absolutely disgusting. You have to question how much people really care for you if they resort to that. They fill you with unfounded fears and present themselves as the ones who are looking out for your best interests. Talk to any mental health professional or social worker, and you would be told that this is a form of emotional abuse.
What makes for a "real" woman? Go to a Walmart, and you'll see women of ALL shapes, sizes, voices, and behaviors. (More upscale places won't do because there tends to be much less variation among people in higher income brackets.) That's a sure way to expand the boundaries of your (or anyone's) definition of womanhood. Can you honestly say that most MTFs would be horribly out of place among the women that you'd see at Walmart?
To define criteria for "real" women is SEXIST and dehumanizing. Where do you draw the lines? Name any trait that you think disqualifies someone from being a "real" woman, and you'll find cis women who have that trait. So then are you going to tell them that they are not "real" women?
There's a human cognitive quirk that makes people see things that are not there, especially when told to look for something. Please take a look at this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradolia)
During the time that I spent pondering the possibility of transition before I started it, I tested myself to see if I could read women whom I knew were cis as MTFs. I used pictures of celebrities. The experiment worked; in most cases, I could spot the subtly masculine or androgynous features and thus easily imagine that they were born male. All of that is to say that if you know that someone is MTF, your brain will unconsciously focus on any perceived masculinity, even though the same traits are hardly outside the realm of cis women. Yet you don't focus on those things when you're dealing with cis women.
I don't know if this would be possible, but I propose an experiment. Find two women in your area. One of them would be the most passable MTF in your opinion. The one other would be some ordinary cis woman. Then introduce them both, at the same time, to your wife as your friends. Have the cis woman talk about being trans (all BS, of course), and don't mention or give any hint that the MTF is not cis. Afterwards, see what your wife says. I predict that she'll mention how the cis woman was "obviously" trans and not say anything like that about the MTF.As a final note, I'd like to share a point that a friend of mine made: Of course you're going to notice MTFs who don't pass. It's like toupees.
When they look fine, they're unnoticeable.
Your wife and mine say very similar things about passing. JoAnn supports me in a lot of ways, but hates loosing a husband. She has said I'll never pass, and not to wear skirts, or some nice tops because they make me look even worse. Sometimes it's true, and sometimes it's just a jab at who I am. So once in a while I buy the summer skirts, or tops, and work them into an outfit. But then she says I'm being more feminine than her (I can't win). After all she hated the women's jeans, shorts, sandals and sneakers when I started. Now that I'm full-time she insists that my timing was way off, and the old men's clothes should have been saved.
Do I pass? No, but as Cindy said "Who gives a ->-bleeped-<-." Passing is only one aspect of transition, while what's proven more important is self esteem, confidence, and most of all, loving the woman inside. Some girls are incredibly lucky and have killer beauty, but even they go through the same issues in transition (We all do). Yeah I envy the beautiful girls in some ways, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't love myself, or live as the real me. And through it all I still have issues, but I work on them. Pass or not.
Above all, take care of yourself the way you see fit.
Hugs, Kathy
My ex said that I will turn out as an ugly woman and what I am doing now is destroying my nice body.
My mother made similar vagues comments, reflecting upon her past experience, but failing to be specific when I asked for details. But my mother is a whole different story - she is an expert in everything, she will criticise everything and everyone and her opinion is in long term the only correct one.
Another thing is that passing does not equal beautiful; the vast majority of cis women aren't stand-out beautiful either, after all. It probably means looking ordinary, but female. (Actually, one drop-dead gorgeous trans woman I know wishes she *were* more ordinary, because she stands out, and once people start staring at her... they're more likely to clock her.)
Quote from: -Emily- on July 31, 2013, 08:35:36 AM
My ex said that I will turn out as an ugly woman and what I am doing now is destroying my nice body.
Last fall my mom said the same thing. She doesn't say that anymore. Just because you look a certain way now doesn't mean you'll stay that way trust me on that! ;)
Quote from: Heather on July 31, 2013, 08:42:42 AM
Last fall my mom said the same thing. She doesn't say that anymore. Just because you look a certain way now doesn't mean you'll stay that way trust me on that! ;)
Sure :) But it was kinda bad thing to hear :/
Quote from: Carlita on July 31, 2013, 05:29:14 AM
So I come back to the question ... based on your personal experiences of yourselves and others, are we kidding ourselves, or can we really just transition, find our true selves, be accepted as women and get on with our lives?
I'd say yes, we can. But I seem to have the same fears as you do.
Quote from: ZoeM on July 31, 2013, 06:36:48 AM
I know I pass. All 5'11" of me.
You are that tall? I'm the same size and thought my size would surely expose me. I'm so happy to have read that!
Quote from: Silvermist on July 31, 2013, 08:11:32 AM
As a final note, I'd like to share a point that a friend of mine made: Of course you're going to notice MTFs who don't pass. It's like toupees. When they look fine, they're unnoticeable.
That means you think so much MTF don't pass because you don't really know how many actually pass?
Quote from: Jenna Marie on July 31, 2013, 08:42:11 AM
and once people start staring at her... they're more likely to clock her.)
Okay, that's a good point.
Quote from: -Emily- on July 31, 2013, 08:48:46 AM
Sure :) But it was kinda bad thing to hear :/
My response to her at the time was "your probably right" So yeah it does hurt to hear it. But the truth is I didn't set out on this journey thinking I was going to pass. I just didn't want to spend the rest of my life trapped in a lie. :)
Sometimes when someone wants something so bad like a little family unit, they will fight tooth and nail to keep that little unit together. No matter the cost. I have been in a similar situation in which I sacrificed myself to the point of mental problems for a little family unit, with no kids involved at least. I hit a wall in which I had no more to give of myself. Then I started thinking more of myself and my happiness, which I had neglected to do over the years, and I layed down ultimatums. I tried to show that what I wanted and what I felt was just as legitament and her feelings, wants, desires and so on. Well... Sometimes people are selfish and do want it all but I won't go into that. What I'm trying to say is sacrificing for your family is fine but make sure you don't sacrifice yourself to the point you have no more self. Compromising is a much better in a family, no matter over what situation. You can make up your mind and try to make her understand but be prepared for a negative outcome, and if it is positive just be thankful.
As for being able to pass, who cares as long as you are happy with who you are?
Quote from: Jess42 on July 31, 2013, 09:15:37 AM
Sometimes when someone wants something so bad like a little family unit, they will fight tooth and nail to keep that little unit together. No matter the cost. I have been in a similar situation in which I sacrificed myself to the point of mental problems for a little family unit, with no kids involved at least. I hit a wall in which I had no more to give of myself. Then I started thinking more of myself and my happiness, which I had neglected to do over the years, and I layed down ultimatums. I tried to show that what I wanted and what I felt was just as legitament and her feelings, wants, desires and so on. Well... Sometimes people are selfish and do want it all but I won't go into that. What I'm trying to say is sacrificing for your family is fine but make sure you don't sacrifice yourself to the point you have no more self. Compromising is a much better in a family, no matter over what situation. You can make up your mind and try to make her understand but be prepared for a negative outcome, and if it is positive just be thankful.
As for being able to pass, who cares as long as you are happy with who you are?
See that nail? You just hit it on the head.
I said to my wife, we bring our children up to be tolerant and free of prejudice, so why doesn't that apply to me? How come everyone else has to be treated with respect for who and what they are, but when it's a member of the family, suddenly that all goes out the window?
I have two grown-up daughters, age 23 and 25. the younger one is training to be a doctor, so she's used to dealing with all kinds of physical and psychological conditions. I'd love to be able to discuss my gender issues with them because I think they should know who their father really is, and also it would explain an awful lot of stuff that's gone on in our family that they have misunderstood, simply because they never knew the truth. My wife says that's just being selfish on my part and burdening them with my problems. I can see her point: they've both got plenty to deal with in their own lives without having to cope with my ->-bleeped-<-.
But at what point can I stop lying and pretending? At what point does it actually become better just to tell the truth??
Quote from: Carlita on July 31, 2013, 09:37:23 AM
See that nail? You just hit it on the head.
I said to my wife, we bring our children up to be tolerant and free of prejudice, so why doesn't that apply to me? How come everyone else has to be treated with respect for who and what they are, but when it's a member of the family, suddenly that all goes out the window?
I have two grown-up daughters, age 23 and 25. the younger one is training to be a doctor, so she's used to dealing with all kinds of physical and psychological conditions. I'd love to be able to discuss my gender issues with them because I think they should know who their father really is, and also it would explain an awful lot of stuff that's gone on in our family that they have misunderstood, simply because they never knew the truth. My wife says that's just being selfish on my part and burdening them with my problems. I can see her point: they've both got plenty to deal with in their own lives without having to cope with my ->-bleeped-<-.But at what point can I stop lying and pretending? At what point does it actually become better just to tell the truth??
I don't think it would be selfish at all Carlita. On your wife's part though, I think it maybe kind of selfish for her to force you to supress yourself. You'll know when the point comes that you can't supress it anymore. Sometimes when someone loves us, they fall in love with an image no matter what that image is at the time. People get awfully protective of those images, no matter who we really are, and do not want to give them up.
Quote from: Carlita on July 31, 2013, 09:37:23 AM
But at what point can I stop lying and pretending? At what point does it actually become better just to tell the truth??
I think you know and your wife both know the answer. The time is now. Trust me, it doesn't help to wait, and all you get for it is older.
Quote from: kathyk on July 31, 2013, 10:02:01 AM
I think you know and your wife both know the answer. The time is now. Trust me, it doesn't help to wait, and all you get for it is older.
And don't forget wrinklier, lazier, fatter and so on. ;) Not to mention those feelings definately get stronger with time or they do with me anyway.
I'm late to this discussion, but maybe my experiences will help, Carlita.
I'm giving up my wife, and my close relationship with my kids (though I will make sure I stay in their lives if it's the last thing I do...) I've risked my job and many of my friendships.
And I was pretty sure I wouldn't pass. I'm a clumsy oaf with the kinesthetic talents of a quadriplegic hippopotamus. I have a huge receding forehead, a thin area at the top of my head that screams "old man" and body hair everywhere.
I was willing to chuck it all, even if it meant I was going to live as a non-passing trans woman. Of course at that point I had met probably a half-dozen non-passing transwomen, most of whom were very pleased with their transitions.
Well I'm not a blackbelt in blending by any means, but I have notched three posts already in the "you know you really pass when..." thread and I haven't even been fulltime for two months.
Don't know if this helps, but despite what I'm losing and risking, I don't regret any of it.
Good luck, Carlita.
Quote from: Carlita on July 31, 2013, 09:37:23 AM
I said to my wife, we bring our children up to be tolerant and free of prejudice, so why doesn't that apply to me? How come everyone else has to be treated with respect for who and what they are, but when it's a member of the family, suddenly that all goes out the window?
Really separates out the "NIMBY liberals", doesn't it?
Maddy
I've found so far that the only people I've revealed my intentions to who weren't fully positive and understanding were my immediate family. It seems that they believe everyone else will be uncomfortable with it and make them feel embarrassed about it. I've only told my mother about it but the others are sensing what's going on by way of my slowly shifting appearance and mannerisms and displaying exactly the same behaviour that she has. What's more interesting is that they ask her what's going on instead of raising the issue to my face. The other day I took a risk on an evening out with my brothers and my dad and wore what I thought was my least-feminine and least feminine-flattering piece of wardrobe, a pair of very plain, square denim capri pants. There was no mention at any point about it and they acted completely normal as did everyone else we knew who was there. The next day my mother reported to her dismay that they had later confronted her asking why I had been wearing 'her' pants and that they were extremely displeased about it. (The pants were my own and wouldn't have fit her.)
Be certain of whether what your wife is saying is true concern for your well-being or is based on some sort of personal shame she thinks will be pressed onto her by others. Obviously you should be somewhat sympathetic to her own feelings but she needs to understand and be aware of the difference. I think you know how this is going to go if she won't allow you to do what is best for your own health. It may end badly but you can't put off tackling the issue head-on.
I went into my situation prepared to lose absolutely everyone over the issue. Instead I am finding some surprisingly strong allies. If my family situation blows up over this then I will find a way to move on and not stress too much about it.
To address your original question, yes, many people do pass (although I think it can depend a lot on location). I haven't caught a single strange glance in all the times I've been out fully en femme, even using my horribly untrained voice to order coffee. If anyone figured it out they didn't say anything. Maybe everyone knows - I don't know, and I don't particularly care so long as I'm not being treated rudely. Maybe I'm lucky and I'll do just fine. But passing isn't really your question - the issue is with what your family thinks about it. Once that is out of the way, the outcome good or bad, I think you will find that a lot of your anxiety around passing will pass. Accepting that you will have to face some conflict and gaining to courage to handle it is critical.
I have been around a long time and have heard this "do i pass" all the time. I now understand "who cares?" I sure do not and what is to pass? Pass as Barbie? Pass as Fabio (for our ftm brothers)? Me i worked on me inside. I am who i am and no more or less and do not care a dang what others might think.
Also on your married side. Trust me i have been there. Heard all the good and nasty of what a spouse can bring. Looking back now i can say the most devestating bagage i was carring in my life was my wife. She was the most supportive (i thought) when i was just allowed to be Izzy part time and on 4 years HRT, but soon as i decided to go full time and she cared more what others will think she turned into my worst enemy. The said part i fell under her spell that everyone was and will be all good. If we only had hind sight. I tell anyone now who is married make a solid excape plan if everything goes south and enjoy your marriage with you are the exception more then the rule. Do not wait till it ends to know what your next move is, thats what happend to me i belived in love is stronger then this, but in my case it was for me but not her.
Wish you luck and if you have to walk away it will all be good. Will hurt like ell inside but trust me if you keep yourself on the path you need to walk things are always possible. Just a fyi i personaly was married for 25 yrs when all went to ell. And today i am married to the most wonderful man in the work and see now what my X really wanted for me to give up. My inner peace and happiness.
Hugs
Izzy
Quote from: Carlita on July 31, 2013, 09:37:23 AMMy wife says that's just being selfish on my part and burdening them with my problems. I can see her point: they've both got plenty to deal with in their own lives without having to cope with my ->-bleeped-<-.
I've found that in many cases, selfishness is relative and depends on perspective. And in those cases, accusations of selfishness are just emotional manipulations (i.e., guilt trips) when, in reality, all parties involved are being selfish. The expectation is that the weakest party will be the one to completely give into the other(s) because compromise is not considered to be acceptable.
Your wife is not wrong: You have needs and desires that are diametrically opposed to hers, and by wanting her to deal with them while you fulfill them is fundamentally selfish.
But isn't your wife selfish for wanting you to live a lie and live in misery in order to respect her wishes? So two of you are more or less equally selfish.
I don't know if you're willing to compromise, but if she isn't, then your marriage has no future, I'm sorry to say. Marriage is founded on compromise, and allowing one partner to get his/her way without compromise is morally wrong.
Yes of course we pass!! A lot!
I agree that some do get lucky in terms of passing, but I realized early on that if I want to pass visually I will have to be extremely dedicated to my presentation. It's not something I can entirely be proud of... because it requires paying so much attention to the way I look and at some point I know that turns unhealthy. But that is another topic.
My endo brought up an interesting point to me... He thinks most mtf's have some level of obsessive compulsiveness in their personality. Almost like obsessive gender compulsiveness. Maybe it has some merit, I dunno. I know I am definitely partly OCD.... I inherited it from my mother.
Carlita- I agree w/ the others and think you should tell your daughters. They are old enough to really understand. And while it's true they probably have a lot on their own plates, I just don't feel like at this point in their life your gender presentation is going to make that much of a difference.. Unless you are living with them or seeing them every day!
Anyway that is just my $0.02... take it worth a grain of salt! :)
Not wishing to upset anyone but passing is so overrated.
Yes, for sure, you avoid the stigma of being trans on some superficial level, but on a deeper level? Internally?
I'm just shy of 6ft and considerably heavier (fatter) than the OP. I can pass, I often do pass but then again I don't always make the effort and it doesn't make that much difference anyway. I get much less stick for being trans than I do for being overweight, and even then it's still a minority against those who accept me for me the complete human being.
I didn't always pass. In fact when I first started coming out I resembled someone close to a gender confused member of the Goombay Dance Band.
Women have thicker skins than men, both physically and figuratively and if you're obsessing over what other people are going to think about you it might be worth taking a step back and asking yourself 'Am I ready for all this?'
The path to womanhood is a path on which you will be judged on your appearance, on the way you dress and present yourself, and on the way you behave. It's not going to be honey and roses all the way. That thicker skin will very quickly become a necessity.
My not bothering doesn't necessarily mean I don't make the effort with my appearance and dress like a chavette. It just means I dress to suit the occasion, for comfort, and when i go out into the wide world I'm not looking round at everyone and trying to figure out if they can clock me or figure out that I'm trans.
That's way too much drama. If people clock me they clock me. What they say and do is a reflection of who they are, it doesn't say anything about who I am. I'm responsible for my own issues. I don't have time or the inclination to accept responsibility for other people's issues as well. I am not Mother Theresa.
Transitioning means being prepared to step outside your comfort zone. Why are you transitioning anyway? If not to be yourself, to be accepted for yourself, for reasons of fulfillment and happiness right?
Comfort is easy, but happiness requires effort and commitment. The path to happiness is beset by challenges, unpleasant conversations, facing up to issues, and overcoming obstacles.
Great question and I might ask it a bit differently; does anyone pass 100%? As many posts indicate, those friends, family, and acquaintances who knew us before transition are certainly going to be able to clock or read most of us during and after transition. Being less passable does not resign us to living in fear or not transitioning but it sure can make it a greater challenge. That fear of being unpassable and the typical shame and self loathing held me back for decades. Not starting transition earlier is one of my only regrets. Unless we are fortunate to start early. before puberty say, we will have a life before transition that we may have as baggage for the rest of our lives. I simply chose to live in the sunlight and accept who I was and who I may become. Our prior lives do not go away do they? We know that some of us may be troubled by old photos or memories but a healthy integration or at least recognition of our journey is important to many of us.
Tessa James
Thank you so, so much, ladies. There's so much compassion here, and also common sense. I wish I could reply to every single post individually - because every one of them has made me think, or comforted me, or just forced me to be more honest about myself and my position - but right now there isn't time.
So, once again, THANK YOU ... reading these posts has merely made me even more aware than I already was of what a special resource's Susan's is and how lost I would be without it.
Quote from: Carlita on July 31, 2013, 09:37:23 AM
See that nail? You just hit it on the head.
I said to my wife, we bring our children up to be tolerant and free of prejudice, so why doesn't that apply to me? How come everyone else has to be treated with respect for who and what they are, but when it's a member of the family, suddenly that all goes out the window?
I have two grown-up daughters, age 23 and 25. the younger one is training to be a doctor, so she's used to dealing with all kinds of physical and psychological conditions. I'd love to be able to discuss my gender issues with them because I think they should know who their father really is, and also it would explain an awful lot of stuff that's gone on in our family that they have misunderstood, simply because they never knew the truth. My wife says that's just being selfish on my part and burdening them with my problems. I can see her point: they've both got plenty to deal with in their own lives without having to cope with my ->-bleeped-<-.
But at what point can I stop lying and pretending? At what point does it actually become better just to tell the truth??
If they were 3 AND 5 I could see her point
at 23 and 25 no way - they are adults and should be mature enough to take it, if not, you did not do the job you say you did in bringing them up to be tolerant. they should be able to take it.honesty should work.
I can't speak for others, but I'd say No, We don't... I'm pretty passable and I can tell you even I don't pass all the time My avatar is a far approximation of what I look like on an everyday basis, It's not just voice smell and appearance tho Some people pick up the oddest hints or read you via the weirdest tells, I've told people who knew me for several months but I didn't tell them. I've asked them what clues gave me away after I revealed my past. one or two I knew about and I wondered if I'd given myself away and it wasn't any great surprise others were more surprising.
A woman I work with called Jo suspected after I accidentally inhaled a tiny tiny amount of Sodium Azide (a Toxic chemical as dangerous as cyanide) That caused a severe choking fit followed by me vomiting onto the floor.
My voice is passable and is also pretty stable, I cough sneeze and even yelp in a way that doesn't sound at all masculine, however super extreme physical acts do cause me to loose control briefly and make deep indisputably male sounding "Hurk! Urgk!" sounds, Vomiting, Coughing my lungs out, begin strangled and punched in the gut all made me make said noise.
Another friend of mine Sarah who is also the most observant person I know, apparently picked up on a few things that made her suspect, The fact I wore Boy boxers despite confessing that I had no boyfriend, Combined with what she described as a Series of peculiar Idiosyncrasies in my body language that seemed at odds with my personality. She said my gestures were very "Tom-Boyish" Yet while despite not begin a girly girl. These traits seemed at odds with my personality. Implying to her that perhaps even if I wasn't trans then I might have been raised as a boy for some obscure reason.
This combined with the scars she saw on my body, And what finally clinched it was when I admitted that I didn't have periods because I didn't have ovaries and didn't want to explain what happened to them.
Everyone else apparently had no clue, which made up 95% of people in addition both Jo and Sarah admitted to me that when they first met me they had no clue it was only after begin around me for a significant length of time they noted anomalies.
I imagine it's the same for most of us, You have cursory readings of your gender then those more in-depth understandings and presumptions about a person.
Quote from: Carlita on July 31, 2013, 05:29:14 AM
My wife's convinced that the only possible 'after' would be a humiliating disaster. As far as she is concerned, no one born male who has a sex-change ever looks, or sounds, or acts remotely like a 'real' woman. If they think they do, they're conning themselves. If anyone else tells then they do, they're simply telling a white lie to be polite.
So I come back to the question ... based on your personal experiences of yourselves and others, are we kidding ourselves, or can we really just transition, find our true selves, be accepted as women and get on with our lives?
I think this myself sometimes!! Where I work I am stealth and I am stealth for most of my life outside of work as well....just with people who need to know.
I wonder often if this is the day I go into work and everyone knows!! I wonder do they already know!! but are just being nice!! Then I hear a comment that makes me realize...there is no way anyone knows. There is one guy in particular that is fairly blunt, some of the comments from him aren't to flattening but have nothing to do with being trans....just more because I am a woman! It's still frustrating none the less!
Most times I don't wonder what people think or see....it's only days I'm not liking myself too much....is when I am more sensitive to what people may say or how they look at me.
I can say in my almost 3 years of being full time I have never had anyone say anything to me referring to the fact they thought I was a man....but I have had many people tell others or myself that they couldn't believe I was born a man....I don't say this arrogantly...in fact when told this my insecurity leaves me for a couple of hours and then I go back to thinking I'm this ugly woman...but at least its a woman!!! There are still some days though I still see a man in the mirror...:(
Will I pass ever? Hmmm I will need to actually try first.
Have I ever accidentally gotten horny looking at a girl that was a guy made up just for the silliness of it? Actually, yes, I have seen Japanese men, that have been made over, and all just for the laughs in this case, the guys were totally not transgender or crossdressers even, they were just being ok with having some fun.
And yes, I can see guys accidentally being typical guys until they find out they were looking at a guy, and it is OMG!!
I have a friend on my Facebook page, hey as I see it, I would love to be that pretty. I have seen her before face and it's like holy crap you were that successful already?
But we all have some challenges, voice being a real nuisance. I doubt my voice will ever be anything feminine sounding. That's ok though, I want to walk past a person, in a reasonable boring no account outfit and smell of a faint hint of perfume, and them just not notice me as being anything more than a not overly great looking woman. If I don't talk to most of the people I will be within view of, they won't hear the voice.
I can't picture seriously passing until the facial hair is beaten down with a stick.
But I can solve male pattern hair loss if I can do a wig properly potentially.
I have the neck of a football linebacker but on my height which is only 5'7 No small length necklaces for me.
But I have seen and I have to be horribly honest hear, some reeeeeeeeally not cosmetically pretty cis females in my day.
I am sure these women can be perfectly fine women, hey I'm a nice person too :) (just not about to be mistaken as beeeeeeautiful any time soon hehe).
I have seen a fair range of persons. Persons that simply like to cross dress and they couldn't care less as it is just cross dressing.
I have seen persons that are transgender like me, and they just don't if they pass, not important them.
I have seen some total knock outs and they were just born with that power eh.
In a million people, you will get a good mix of the entirely ugly and the awesomely beautiful. But most will be boring and average, and forgettable looking :) Some of us can even look like we can dress ourselves and not look like a fashion disaster :) cis or otherwise.
You won't look attractive if you don't try.
Hey, my sister is stunning when she tries, and she can look dreadful if she doesn't.
My wife is nice and round shaped. And I have told her more than enough times, I don't want any of the other 3+ billion women on the planet, I picked her.
I can probably make myself more attractive than her cosmetically speaking, but there is little reason for a 6 to be looking down on a 5 eh :)
Look I I walk into stores, I go down the street - no one suspects anything - I had trouble today with my bicycle and people helped me as if I were any other womyn. a guy stopped and put my bike in the back of his truck just talked to did not ask any questions. My ID reads normally my debit card reads the same as my DL I live life normally. - no one suspects. If you present right it works just act the part and you are fine. - it is when you have self doubt that there is problems. ;D
By any objective standard, there are many transwomen who pass for women better (dare I say much better) than many ciswomen do. Some transwomen have genetics/age/nutrition/money/effort/etc going in their favor, and many ciswomen simply won't look the average, stereotype, or "ideal" by a longshot. I think we would be "kidding ourselves" to say transwomen on average "look just as female" as ciswomen on average, but deviation within each group makes it possible to "overtake" many ciswomen in the process. Think of the picture below with blue representing MtFs and red representing ciswomen (although in practice, I'd expect blue MtF bell to spread out wider -- there is probably more upside and downside for them, because their hormone and environmental circumstances will probably vary much more for MtFs than for ciswomen). The odds are against you for reaching the middle of the ciswoman pack, but you can probably crawl past at least some women with a personal investment.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fafww.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F04%2Fbell_curves_bimodal-of_bright_beginner_vs_jeff_before.png&hash=88548e71aa9402a27db32a627508ac34566de2ef)
But even if only look more like a woman than 1% of ciswomen, at least you're a woman, right?
I hope I never have to go stealth.
I love being trans and I want the people in my life to love that about me as well. It's a huge part of who I am and I do not wish to repress it.
Quote from: Jennygirl on July 31, 2013, 08:43:44 PM
I hope I never have to go stealth.
I love being trans and I want the people in my life to love that about me as well. It's a huge part of who I am and I do not wish to repress it.
I just don't consider it a BIG part of me, it just happens to be the way I was born, a minor defet in my body, I AM a womon this is the major fact of my existence
To be fair - I have an advantage over quite a few - I look exactly like my mother - I am 4 inches taller - smaller breasts - that is all other than that I have her same figure and all, same exact face and all, really the only difference is her hair went grey much earlier, this must be the influence of my genetic father whoever the heck he was.
and I have had years of practice in tuning my behavior in the presence of cis womyn - I have been attending groups with them instead of trans groups - I have preferred to go to lesbian game night rather trans encounter meetings (much more social and better learning on how to behave)
Quote from: Jennygirl on July 31, 2013, 08:43:44 PM
I hope I never have to go stealth.
I love being trans and I want the people in my life to love that about me as well. It's a huge part of who I am and I do not wish to repress it.
No stealth is not the most enjoyable experience....but being treated like a normal woman....Priceless!!
I'm sorry but I do not enjoy being trans...it's not who I am! It may be what I am if need to be known but why would everyone need to know??
It's not something I repress...how can I theirs always something between my legs confirming it. I feel its very much like being gay...if not telling people your gay means your trying to repress it, then their are many gay people repressing it.
Quote from: Just Shelly on July 31, 2013, 10:44:30 PM
No stealth is not the most enjoyable experience....but being treated like a normal woman....Priceless!!
I'm sorry but I do not enjoy being trans...it's not who I am! It may be what I am if need to be known but why would everyone need to know??
What makes you think that just because someone is out or open about being trans that they cannot be treated the same as any other 'normal' woman, or.. for that matter, any other 'normal' human being?
For me personally there's no need to be stealth to the people in my life because it doesn't really make that much difference. I'm accepted as female, and being trans doesn't change that fact. Behind my back people talk about me as a woman, not as a transwoman.
Furthermore there's not really that much difference in the life experience between someone who's cisgendered and someone who's trans. It doesn't matter whether you're trans or not, as a woman you get judged on your appearance, the way you present yourself, your behaviour and you face the exact same obstacles and issues in life.
Being trans is a part of who I am and it's part of my reality. The course of my life is different, I didn't go through the same life experiences and rites of passage as a cisgendered woman and to allow anyone who is a part of my life to accept and believe that I have is something which I feel is both dishonest and disrespectful.
Another reason why I am out and open about being trans is that I remember coming out to people at the start. I can recall not just the shock and pain that I experienced from being rejected or abandoned but also the hurt and pain other people experienced as a result of my coming out, their feelings that I had deceived them, and also their pain and anguish at the loss of a relationship.
I remember also what was behind my decision to come out and start transitioning and part of the reasoning was that I was hurting not just myself but other people.
I'm out and open because I don't ever want to go through those experiences again and what's more, I don't want other people to go through those experiences either.
I think some women pass very well and no one would ever guess. I think others pass but are prolly more plain. Then I think some are borderline. And then there are those that don't pass. Bu in the end as long as you are happy that's all that matters. That being said there are many advantages to passing well: MEN love pretty women! Also, your life will prolly be easier as it will that much easier to be seen as a woman. You see I don't really like being trans and really I just consider myself a woman with a birth defect, one I am correcting. I already pass a lot of time and have been since the two month mark. So I guess I'm lucky but I'm sure I don't always pass but of course I present male still more then I would like to. But I think I have genetics in my favor and I am positive I had a hormonal disorder, I just don't know the nature of it. I also look exactly like my mom and sister and aunts. Like carbon copy. Plus I'm 5'5 with 13-14" inch shoulders and tiny hands and feet. No adam's apple and I naturally have pretty female mannerisms. Everyone says so even pre-transition. I often wonder if I would transition if I wasn't so sure I would pass 100 percent given enough time. But women come in all shapes and sizes so I don;t think a lot my stats matter much as I am still muscular and I won't pass 100 percent until that goes away and laser.
All that being said passing isn't the be all and end all: being happy is. And if you live in a non-accepting area, move. NYC and Cali are very accepting and the people are so nice in Cali. But I don't plan on being stealth to the people I get close to but I do want to go pretty deeply stealth with most people. I would still need to change more for that to happen.
But the OP's wife is dead wrong and acts like all males are these broad shouldered linebackers with john wayne faces. Not true. Height has little to do with anything as a matter of fact. The face is the most important. And there are plenty of really pretty trans women so she's wrong and I think it's a little insulting but I understand why she said it. She's scared. Hoepfully things get better.
Which of these supermodels looks more like a man, Gisele Bundchen or Andrej Pejic?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fbn4A8Yp.jpg&hash=3d8c4a14ff3ed10760180d6ca8d16ae81422cb1b) | (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwEbYk6B.jpg&hash=6e2f362cf93438d819b62b197c25d3806f9f4676)
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As we all know, Andrej isn't on HRT (yet). Via Google, you can find plenty of people on various sites saying that Gisele "looks like a man." If Andrej looks no more out of place than Gisele does in the world of supermodels, then how well can we pass among "regular" women?
Quote from: Silvermist on August 01, 2013, 06:25:06 AM
Which of these supermodels looks more like a man, Gisele Bundchen or Andrej Pejic?
As we all know, Andrej isn't on HRT (yet). Via Google, you can find plenty of people on various sites saying that Gisele "looks like a man." If Andrej looks no more out of place than Gisele does in the world of supermodels, then how well can we pass among "regular" women?
As we know, passing is more than just a static two dimensional image of a person. It's the sum of all the parts. If we met and spoke to these two in three dimensions, who would then 'pass'?
Quote from: Nicolette on August 01, 2013, 07:29:48 AM
As we know, passing is more than just a static two dimensional image of a person. It's the sum of all the parts. If we met and spoke to these two in three dimensions, who would then 'pass'?
Very valid point :). Sadly, given their supermodel status, any of the present audience will hardly ever meet them in person to figure out whether they pass or not ;)
P.S. Giselle does not look like a man to me at all...
Quote from: -Emily- on August 01, 2013, 07:39:20 AM
Very valid point :). Sadly, given their supermodel status, any of the present audience will hardly ever meet them in person to figure out whether they pass or not ;)
P.S. Giselle does not look like a man to me at all...
Definitely. She has very feminine features. From the photo, there's no indication of having been born male.
Aaaand going back to transgender - Kim Petras passes 100%.
"Worlds Youngest Transsexual" Kim Petras on "This Morning" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDJXR1wXofA#)
Quote from: Nicolette on August 01, 2013, 07:47:17 AM
Definitely. She has very feminine features. From the photo, there's no indication of having been born male.
Just by looking at those two pictures, to me both Giselle and Andrej look like cis womem to me. Andrej looks prettier, and softer to me but thats because of the way his makeup was done. Also the person who worked on his photo could have done a lot of work on it in photoshop to soften his image.
Quote from: -Emily- on August 01, 2013, 07:52:57 AM
Aaaand going back to transgender - Kim Petras passes 100%.
Absolutely. If I were a lot younger or she a lot older, I'd surely take a hit on her given the chance.
That said, there are examples in this forum as well. But this is also from the 2D picture perspective.
I think that your wife really doesn't want you to change and that she is willin to use anything in her means to prevent you from doing anything.
Quote from: StellaB on August 01, 2013, 01:31:58 AM
What makes you think that just because someone is out or open about being trans that they cannot be treated the same as any other 'normal' woman, or.. for that matter, any other 'normal' human being?
For me personally there's no need to be stealth to the people in my life because it doesn't really make that much difference. I'm accepted as female, and being trans doesn't change that fact. Behind my back people talk about me as a woman, not as a transwoman.
Furthermore there's not really that much difference in the life experience between someone who's cisgendered and someone who's trans. It doesn't matter whether you're trans or not, as a woman you get judged on your appearance, the way you present yourself, your behaviour and you face the exact same obstacles and issues in life.
Being trans is a part of who I am and it's part of my reality. The course of my life is different, I didn't go through the same life experiences and rites of passage as a cisgendered woman and to allow anyone who is a part of my life to accept and believe that I have is something which I feel is both dishonest and disrespectful.
Another reason why I am out and open about being trans is that I remember coming out to people at the start. I can recall not just the shock and pain that I experienced from being rejected or abandoned but also the hurt and pain other people experienced as a result of my coming out, their feelings that I had deceived them, and also their pain and anguish at the loss of a relationship.
I remember also what was behind my decision to come out and start transitioning and part of the reasoning was that I was hurting not just myself but other people.
I'm out and open because I don't ever want to go through those experiences again and what's more, I don't want other people to go through those experiences either.
but it is different for me
1) trans is only a tangential part of my life, see it as a birth defect, I am a womon, and and was declared wrongly at birth
B) I did not hurt myself at all by transitioning, I just accepted who I was
iii) I did not hurt anyone else - they may have chosen to be hurt by my accepting who I am but I am not responsible for someone else's emotional problems let them get therapy because they can't deal with being out of touch with their real pain I did not cause it. I cannot make someone feel bad. no one can make you feel bad right? it has been what I have been told all along in therapy if I am not supposed to feel bad when people tease me, why should they feel bad for what I do?
Quote from: vegie271 on August 01, 2013, 09:35:18 AM
but it is different for me
Agreed and accepted. I can only post from my own personal experience and perspective but even if I do it doesn't make your experiences and opinions (or those of anyone else) any less valid. We're all individuals at the end of the day, right?
Sorryy have to put this in.
I was buying an IPad-mini today, (ye I need more computers, two side by side running different sites etc and an IPad to keep in touch as well ::)) but as it was being connected to a network the guy who was talking to the people doing the network connection over the phone (who had spoken to me for verification purposes) said, "No, she is a rather attractive woman with a deep voice."
I don't know what the question was but prob my female name versus my voice.
I fell in love!
Heee Heeee
Sorry
I don't stress over it too much anymore. I get called babe, sweetheart, dear, honey, darling, etc. by both men and women of all ages, so who knows.
I imagine most of them are scratching their heads at why I often say "good morning" at 4 or 5 in the afternoon and not at how I might appear to them.
Quote from: Katie10 on August 01, 2013, 09:34:29 AM
I think that your wife really doesn't want you to change and that she is willin to use anything in her means to prevent you from doing anything.
I think so too...
More important is: when time has come that you can't stand it any longer living as a male, then the question of passing isn't relevant any longer... You will just start living as your life should be, as a female... for everything else you'll find a solution, whatever it takes...
Some may find I am lucky because I pass pretty well. Even currently being in Bangkok where I obviously will be more visible as a 6ft white woman (even I weren't trans) I seem to pass all the time, even e.g. in shopping malls crowded with short local Thai people only.
However I still sometimes do not pass... still the same appearance, however it may be a matter of showing no confidence, bodytalk... etc. This mostly occurs when I am tired, have a off-day or something like that..
Passing is a state of mind it's not how you look. The most important part of passing is how confident you are in yourself. If you really see yourself as a woman so will everyone else. Passing is totally in your head because really how do you really know how other people see you? :eusa_think:
Once you stop letting people's opinion of you determine your happiness the better off you will be. ;)
Quote from: Carlita on July 31, 2013, 01:27:02 PM
Thank you so, so much, ladies. There's so much compassion here, and also common sense. I wish I could reply to every single post individually - because every one of them has made me think, or comforted me, or just forced me to be more honest about myself and my position - but right now there isn't time.
So, once again, THANK YOU ... reading these posts has merely made me even more aware than I already was of what a special resource's Susan's is and how lost I would be without it.
Hi Carlita,
Given your kids ages, we are probably in a similar age group. I have three kids, now aged 28, 24 and 20. I came out to all 3 of them 2 years ago. My son, the 24 year old, was OK with my transition right from the beginning but my two daughters found it more difficult, especially the eldest. Two years down the road I am now filing for my civil identity change and for this I need testimonials from as many people as possible testifying to the fact that I already live full time as a woman. I asked my kids would they contribute and all three agreed to.
You will find a few extracts from the letter my eldest daughter wrote below. She started explaining how I had come out in July 2011 and then continued as follows.
"Since then, we have had many occasions to rediscuss the subject and because of this I have finally understood that it was a real, innate need, indispensable for his(her) physical and mental well being" "These last two years, I have observed a huge change in my father, who, in parallel to extensive cosmetic surgeries, has adopted female dress since coming out and explaining the situation to his (her) children. His (her) personality has also changed with the emergence of a far more gentle side and a shift in his(her) centers of interest towards far more feminine pursuits."« Today, my father is no longer at all the man we used to know and it is becoming difficult to accept this ambiguous situation where everything about his appearance and personality is feminine while his (her) official identity remains masculine »She is still uncomfortable with many aspects of my transition, which I genuinely understand, but because there is love, trust and because we took things one little step at a time, she was OK to write a letter which will contribute to the final disappearance of the father image she struggled so hard to let go of.
Based on this experience, as long as you do things in a manner which is respectful of them, I am sure that as adults, your kids can handle you telling them who you really are.
Wishing you all the best.
Donna
P.S. From a very tough starting point,among others I am 6'1", I now pass comfortably. I did go through FFS to get there but agree with others that confidence also plays a major role. However it is difficult to develop that confidence before you are into the full time phase so at some stage you just have to go for it.
Quote from: Jennygirl on July 31, 2013, 08:43:44 PM
I hope I never have to go stealth.
I love being trans and I want the people in my life to love that about me as well. It's a huge part of who I am and I do not wish to repress it.
I love that line of thinking Jenny.
Quote from: Silvermist on August 01, 2013, 06:25:06 AM
Which of these supermodels looks more like a man, Gisele Bundchen or Andrej Pejic?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fbn4A8Yp.jpg&hash=3d8c4a14ff3ed10760180d6ca8d16ae81422cb1b) | (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FwEbYk6B.jpg&hash=6e2f362cf93438d819b62b197c25d3806f9f4676)
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As we all know, Andrej isn't on HRT (yet). Via Google, you can find plenty of people on various sites saying that Gisele "looks like a man." If Andrej looks no more out of place than Gisele does in the world of supermodels, then how well can we pass among "regular" women?
They both look female to me. It's just Andrej is more beautiful than Gisele.
Quote from: Silvermist on August 01, 2013, 06:25:06 AM
Which of these supermodels looks more like a man, Gisele Bundchen or Andrej Pejic?
As we all know, Andrej isn't on HRT (yet). Via Google, you can find plenty of people on various sites saying that Gisele "looks like a man." If Andrej looks no more out of place than Gisele does in the world of supermodels, then how well can we pass among "regular" women?
Not everything is read on appearance alone person I work with is Face blind, She can only identify the gender of a person by there voice and hair, which is explicitly the reason why she said she doesn't like men with long hair. Because before they speak she's prone to embarrassing herself but if your voice doesn't pass completely with her then you don't pass no matter how feminine you look.
And another friend of mine is incredibly observant of body mannerisms and she actually read me despite her mentioning that she only suspected because there was no physical cues in my body.
I myself saw a teenage boy walking down the street on my way to the train station, they had long hair and in my case the only cue I had was there hips begin slightly narrower than their shoulders.
You know people I detest the P word. I see it used all the time and you know one of the definitions of the word is to put forth something that is not what it actually is.
I don't know about you all but I am a woman. I am nothing more and nothing less. I will never you the P word. I am just a woman.
Katie
Quote from: Donna Elvira on August 02, 2013, 12:33:36 PM
Hi Carlita,
Given your kids ages, we are probably in a similar age group. I have three kids, now aged 28, 24 and 20. I came out to all 3 of them 2 years ago. My son, the 24 year old, was OK with my transition right from the beginning but my two daughters found it more difficult, especially the eldest. Two years down the road I am now filing for my civil identity change and for this I need testimonials from as many people as possible testifying to the fact that I already live full time as a woman. I asked my kids would they contribute and all three agreed to.
You will find a few extracts from the letter my eldest daughter wrote below. She started explaining how I had come out in July 2011 and then continued as follows.
"Since then, we have had many occasions to rediscuss the subject and because of this I have finally understood that it was a real, innate need, indispensable for his(her) physical and mental well being"
"These last two years, I have observed a huge change in my father, who, in parallel to extensive cosmetic surgeries, has adopted female dress since coming out and explaining the situation to his (her) children. His (her) personality has also changed with the emergence of a far more gentle side and a shift in his(her) centers of interest towards far more feminine pursuits."
« Today, my father is no longer at all the man we used to know and it is becoming difficult to accept this ambiguous situation where everything about his appearance and personality is feminine while his (her) official identity remains masculine »
She is still uncomfortable with many aspects of my transition, which I genuinely understand, but because there is love, trust and because we took things one little step at a time, she was OK to write a letter which will contribute to the final disappearance of the father image she struggled so hard to let go of.
Based on this experience, as long as you do things in a manner which is respectful of them, I am sure that as adults, your kids can handle you telling them who you really are.
Wishing you all the best.
Donna
P.S. From a very tough starting point,among others I am 6'1", I now pass comfortably. I did go through FFS to get there but agree with others that confidence also plays a major role. However it is difficult to develop that confidence before you are into the full time phase so at some stage you just have to go for it.
Hi Donna ... I'm so sorry I didn't reply to you sooner, but I've been away on holiday with no internet connection - kind of frustrating, but also an incredible relief in some ways!
Anyway, I'm so happy for you that you've been able to bring your children with you on your journey. It would make such a huge difference to me if I thought I could do the same.
Some start further down the road, some have a lot of work to do, and there are many in the middle. Me, unless people knew my name (and even then, some thought my parents had been very original by giving a male name to a girl), knew that I was supposed to be a guy, people mostly thought I was a girl, before really transitioning, and I wasn't especially trying to look like a girl. Despite having no waist to speak of. Despite my Adam's apple. Despite my abundant body hair (arms x.x). Despite a masculine jaw and chin. Despite ugly, bushy, thick eyebrows.
Sound like a girl, have hair that looks rather like a girl's than a guy's, and chances are you'll pass.
Now, if you're older, "chances are" that it won't be so easy. Even then. When I look through the member pictures, whenever someone who's been on HRT for long enough doesn't pass, very rarely is it not because the person is obese/severely overweight, hasn't had hair removal, hasn't been trying very hard (or has been doing something absolutely wrong) or hasn't taken care of their baldness yet. And even cases not in that category (which is not many), what, 90 % would pass more than fine with facial surgery.
Granted, the more you age, the more male characteristics pile up on you, the more expensive, the more work it's likely to be. But how many trans women cannot pass convincingly even after surgery? Honestly, there must be very, very few. (Also, the older you are, the more money you should have. As a poor student whose available income has been cut by almost 10 % recently (no more medication reimbursement), I doubt I can still muster even 50 $ a month, from my income of ~900 $. At your age, it's likely that you have at least twice that. Surely, costs are less scary when you look at it this way, hmm?
Anyone - and I do mean anyone, who has the idea that they need to try to PASS as something they are not, is completely wasting their time and should not even think about thinking about this treatment... The whole concept of passing is flawed. I have never tried to pass as anything other than myself - which of course I do 100% of the time... I transitioned not in order to be seen as either a man or woman, but to be seen as more authentically myself! Now as I happen to be female it follows that this tends to imply being seen as female. Although when it comes to other peoples perception as to what and who they decide I am, I leave that up to those who observe me to make their minds up. I find that they always come to a conclusion that I agree with.
This of course is just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.
I say yes. I pass and I am never mistaken as male.
I am always called miss.
But passing is more than clothes and looks, it also how you act.. little things, like sitting like a lady, legs closed lol
When I was pre-hrt, I am would watch women,, How they interact with each other, the way they walk, the way they dressed. Dressing to suit your age group also helps.
e.g. I noticed when a woman is wearing a skirt/dress, they run there hand across there buts to straighten their dress/skirt before sitting down. small details are important..
Another tip, makeup.. wear the appropriate amount .. e.g Woman tend to wear darker and more eye makeup at night.. during the day its lighter colors and less eye makeup.
Quote from: A on August 13, 2013, 09:26:21 AM
Granted, the more you age, the more male characteristics pile up on you, the more expensive, the more work it's likely to be. But how many trans women cannot pass convincingly even after surgery? Honestly, there must be very, very few. (Also, the older you are, the more money you should have. As a poor student whose available income has been cut by almost 10 % recently (no more medication reimbursement), I doubt I can still muster even 50 $ a month, from my income of ~900 $. At your age, it's likely that you have at least twice that. Surely, costs are less scary when you look at it this way, hmm?
Well - I have had no surgeries at all and I do fine - just HRT & electrolysis (a WHOLE lot of that! a fortune)
and of course at that income you can't even take advantage of the fact that the stuff is tax deductible. :'( it is enough of your income but at that level I know you don't pay any because neither do I at my level (at least if we are talking US)
Quote from: iiii on August 13, 2013, 10:15:16 AM
I don't know really, I think a lot of people need body surgeries too. Even with a fairly feminine face, one might not pass because of an excessively masculine body shape.
That is kind of obvious though? Most want to pass as female, because that's the sex they feel they should be. Transitioning with a goal on passing as female is a pretty good, and normal, idea.
Is it a 'normal' goal? Sure.. Is it actually achievable. not always.
being non-mtf I can say I both meet mtfs who pass very well and mtfs who dont its individual depending on each person and transition, area, suroundings and many diffrent facts.
I pass, apparently, and I know there is this whole debate on whether it is important or not. However, the people who say it doesn't matter aren't taking into account people who live where I live. Quite frankly, not passing is dangerous. Go into a women's room near me and don't pass, you better be tough cause you're going to get into a fight. Is that right? Of course not. But it doesn't make it any less true. Three trans women have been killed in the last two years near me. So sometimes passing is more then just vanity. That being said I am moving from here soon and I I wonder how important passing would be if it wasn't so necessary. Lucklily I think I pass so I don't have this problem. But ugh it really gets to me sometimes and it can be really, really scary.
Girls, i am sorry for being here cos this forum is for girls only but i wanted to say something. I hope you don't mind cos i really need to comment on this topic. :)
I have seen some MTFs that pass 100%. I am a FTM, so it's not a white lie or something like that because i am a guy and i want to keep it this way. Yes, there are some girls that don't pass but hormone therapy can work wonders, you can also experiment with make-up and the most important thing - try working on your voice. I have seen a lot of MTFs that pass 100% but then they open their mouth and start talking... So voice is like the most important thing!!! You need to work on it! There are a lot of tall cis women, there are some masculine women but your voice can give you away. Just my 2 cents. :)
I think the word pass or passing should be buried and use the word blend or blending instead.
I don't want to "pass" as a cisgirl, I want to blend, and only in public spaces. With friends, family, etc... I just want to be me ;)
Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 11:49:42 AM
Girls, i am sorry for being here cos this forum is for girls only but i wanted to say something. I hope you don't mind cos i really need to comment on this topic. :)
I have seen some MTFs that pass 100%. I am a FTM, so it's not a white lie or something like that because i am a guy and i want to keep it this way. Yes, there are some girls that don't pass but hormone therapy can work wonders, you can also experiment with make-up and the most important thing - try working on your voice. I have seen a lot of MTFs that pass 100% but then they open their mouth and start talking... So voice is like the most important thing!!! You need to work on it! There are a lot of tall cis women, there are some masculine women but your voice can give you away. Just my 2 cents. :)
Hey Jared,
I welcome your input and that of our whole wide circle of trans people here. This is not a girls only forum by any rule I am aware of. We benefit from diverse voices and perspectives. Personal development is enhanced by this kind of reflection and trying on new ideas. I am seeing a speech therapist and agree that our voices can say more than we intend sometimes!?
For me it one thing i never fell for in this whole process. Pass as who?
I never cared but if i had to say something then yes i pass as me. No one else but me and i find nothing wrong with that.
I never cared what society feels about me. I live life as me every single day. Even a bad hair day no makeup makes me feel good about myself.
Self image is one of them things most deal with and turns into one of the big fear triggers. I have found in all these years most people are more worried about going about there own day and do not care a bit on how you look. And if they do then who cares.
So again I pass as me and happy.
Izzy
Quote from: Tessa James on August 13, 2013, 12:09:52 PM
Hey Jared,
I welcome your input and that of our whole wide circle of trans people here. This is not a girls only forum by any rule I am aware of. We benefit from diverse voices and perspectives. Personal development is enhanced by this kind of reflection and trying on new ideas. I am seeing a speech therapist and agree that our voices can say more than we intend sometimes!?
Thanks Tessa! I am very happy that you agree with me and that you are seeing a speech therapist! As i said before, your voice can be the crucial factor in whether you pass or not. Look-wise it's not that hard to pass. All you need is make-up and clothes, plus no facial hair. People won't question you when you have all of those. But your voice can give you away.
But anyway, there are quite a lot of cis women with deep voices, some women smoke a lot and therefore their voices become deeper. Some of them don't smoke at all and still have quite a deep voice. But it's still a bit higher than a man's voice. So you just need to work on it. I am sure you can make it higher!
As for me, i am pre-T but i can lower my voice when i want. I have to think about it all the time. When i am not thinking about it i sound like a female with a lower voice but still a female. :( So i have to control myself all the time. Which isn't easy at all. I have to think about 2 things: what do i want to say and which voice do i wanna use for that? It's very hard! :-\ Other people have to think only about one thing - what they want to say. And i have to deal with 2. But it's worth it.
What about you?
Here's the truth as I see it.
First, I think your wife is really being irrational about they don't pass as or act like normal women. Women are people; people are individuals; individuals are all different. That's like saying all guys are the same. It's just simply not the case. Just because one woman is primp and proper doesn't mean the next is. Some girls wear makeup and do their hair, some have never worn make up ever!
But, with that said here is the straight truth: There is zero guarantee that you will pass. Sadly, that's the truth. Some transwomen/men get all the surgery in the world and still have that hint of their birth sex about them. It happens. This is why your therapist should be making it at a point that you have to be ready to deal with the possibility that you will never pass.
Also, something to remember too is that your outcome depends heavily on how much effort you put into it. If you exercise, eat well (fatty foods help with adding weight to certain areas but you have to balance it) and take vitamins/supplements you results will be much better than if you veg out on the couch your entire transition.
Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 12:36:59 PM
Thanks Tessa! I am very happy that you agree with me and that you are seeing a speech therapist! As i said before, your voice can be the crucial factor in whether you pass or not. Look-wise it's not that hard to pass. All you need is make-up and clothes, plus no facial hair. People won't question you when you have all of those. But your voice can give you away.
But anyway, there are quite a lot of cis women with deep voices, some women smoke a lot and therefore their voices become deeper. Some of them don't smoke at all and still have quite a deep voice. But it's still a bit higher than a man's voice. So you just need to work on it. I am sure you can make it higher!
As for me, i am pre-T but i can lower my voice when i want. I have to think about it all the time. When i am not thinking about it i sound like a female with a lower voice but still a female. :( So i have to control myself all the time. Which isn't easy at all. I have to think about 2 things: what do i want to say and which voice do i wanna use for that? It's very hard! :-\ Other people have to think only about one thing - what they want to say. And i have to deal with 2. But it's worth it.
What about you?
As you probably know HRT for the girls has no impact on changing our voices. My transman friends on T are so lucky to get that change. Relative to the topic I want to consider changes to my voice not to pass but for my own comfort and identity alignment. I don't want to live in fear that I might cough or do something that gives me away. Passing is not my goal. Feeling closer to what I felt was my lifetime feminine shadow is. Yes, we have more to "think" about when we open our mouths;-)
Quote from: Tessa James on August 13, 2013, 12:52:30 PM
As you probably know HRT for the girls has no impact on changing our voices. My transman friends on T are so lucky to get that change. Relative to the topic I want to consider changes to my voice not to pass but for my own comfort and identity alignment. I don't want to live in fear that I might cough or do something that gives me away. Passing is not my goal. Feeling closer to what I felt was my lifetime feminine shadow is. Yes, we have more to "think" about when we open our mouths;-)
I thought HRT can slightly change your voice? Anyway, we all have our ups and downs. As you know, FTMs must go through the top surgery, otherwise we don't pass (binding is not an option for me and for many other FTMs because it's very uncomfortable and you can't go out shirtless). And you girls can grow breasts on HRT without any top surgery! :D This is amazing! Of course if you want a very big breast you can have a surgery for that but you can pass with small breasts too! ;) There are so many cis women with small breasts! :)
do any of these ladies pass?
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html
Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 01:09:43 PM
I thought HRT can slightly change your voice?
I don't think it effects it that much but for me it is much easier to sound female then pre-HRT. I don't know if it is the pitch or whatever but I pass and when I open my mouth nobody thinks anything. I do have to work at it though and I can slip back into the male register. I think I am an alto. I know after my voice deepened and I stopped being a soprano at 15, the teacher told me I'm an alto or contralto or whatever. My voice hasn't changed since then. I have a pretty high voice for a MAAB person.
Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 01:09:43 PM
And you girls can grow breasts on HRT without any top surgery! :D This is amazing! Of course if you want a very big breast you can have a surgery for that but you can pass with small breasts too! ;) There are so many cis women with small breasts! :)
It is amazing. One doesn't always need surgery though. When I walk my boobs bounce like something fierce. They are not huge or anything but look pretty big cause I have such a tiny frame. I hope they get big enough where I don't have to use tape to create cleavage. Right now, if I tape them a little, I get AMAZING cleavage.
Quote from: chuck on August 13, 2013, 01:22:58 PM
do any of these ladies pass?
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html
Most of them pass. Gawd I hope I can get to that point.
Quote from: chuck on August 13, 2013, 01:22:58 PM
do any of these ladies pass?
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html
I am sure if they did not let themselves be outed on that site you would never know, same as me being outed at the Gay & lesbian Center, I was at the Lesbian Ladies night for 3 years before anyone had any idea I was trans ;D
Joanna Dark
I am happy for you Joanna! :) I am happy that you can pass so well!
As i said we all have our ups and downs. Being FTM seems easier at first because T can do SO much, basically anyone can look masculine if they start taking T so passing seems pretty easy. No one will think that a person with a beard and a manly voice used to be a biological female. But then, there is a top surgery, we have to go through this. :( Lots of money and stress, and hassle. Plus, the bottom surgery is much more complicated and much more expensive. It takes 3 stages to get it done.
I know that many FTMs are happy without the bottom surgery but i am not the one. I need to be complete inside and out. What about you? What do you think about the bottom surgery?
Quote from: JaredLeBlanc on August 13, 2013, 02:05:47 PM
Joanna Dark
I am happy for you Joanna! :) I am happy that you can pass so well!
As i said we all have our ups and downs. Being FTM seems easier at first because T can do SO much, basically anyone can look masculine if they start taking T so passing seems pretty easy. No one will think that a person with a beard and a manly voice used to be a biological female. But then, there is a top surgery, we have to go through this. :( Lots of money and stress, and hassle. Plus, the bottom surgery is much more complicated and much more expensive. It takes 3 stages to get it done.
I know that many FTMs are happy without the bottom surgery but i am not the one. I need to be complete inside and out. What about you? What do you think about the bottom surgery?
ours is easier and better - but for so many of us - still massively out of the realm of possibility - in fact not possible at all for me - medicare refuses to pay for it - and it is illegal for me to save for it - society has basically stated flat out I cannot ever have surgery in my life - I was prevented from having it when I had the money once by a group through reparative therapy
Quote from: vegie271 on August 13, 2013, 03:51:28 PM
ours is easier and better - but for so many of us - still massively out of the realm of possibility - in fact not possible at all for me - medicare refuses to pay for it - and it is illegal for me to save for it - society has basically stated flat out I cannot ever have surgery in my life - I was prevented from having it when I had the money once by a group through reparative therapy
Oh girl... I know some countries and some places are really hard to deal with but i also know that there are surgeons out there who will do the bottom surgery without any medical statements. I know that there are some girls and boys out there who just went to Thailand and had their surgeries without any legal papers or medical statements. But of course it costs a lot. :( I know if we had money we could do anything we want. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the money to do what they need to do. We are stuck with this situation because we don't have enough money to pay for everything...
Quote from: iiii on August 13, 2013, 04:14:33 PM
can't you trust the money to somebody else, who will then "pay" for your surgery?
several problems with that
1) it is illegal (minor I know but it is one) - if they ever do detect it I lose not just my medicare but ny SSI forever and go to prison (male lockup)
B) I have no friends
iii) even if I started now it would be 2021 until I could afford it - I would be 59 (not too bad with my life expectancy of 72) this is only assuming the price does not go up (bad assumption isn't it! so add at least a year maybe two since budget of other things messes up this means only 11 years of post op)
for what? the possibility that after all of that maybe eventually some womyn would date me?
I have been on HRT for 20 years and full time for 6 will have been full time 17 by then .....
Quote from: vegie271 on August 13, 2013, 05:24:30 PM
I have been on HRT for 20 years and full time for 6 will have been full time 17 by then .....
Wait you've been on HRT for 20 years and only full time for six of them? How does that work? I've been taking hormones for only five months and I can't pass as male. I either pass as female or transsexual. I couldn't just say I'm male. People look at me like I just swallowed a canary. I know I'm really lucky but I imagine given enought time on hormones this is pretty regular outcome to no longer pass as male. I thought I'd be ab;e to go a year or even indefinitely without anyone knowing and that plan was scuttled by the three month mark.
But TBH I prolly just confuse people and they default to female, maybe. I'm still surprised when I pass.
I was married for a long time to someone and that prevented me from deciding to present full time - once she died I was not ready to do anything quite yet - she committed suicide through some real hard circumstances - the whole reason I met her was due to the fact I was in a place that had put me through reparative therapy keeping me from having the surgery which I had saved up for (I actually had the money and a surgeon lined up in 1989)
Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on August 13, 2013, 09:54:56 AM
Anyone - and I do mean anyone, who has the idea that they need to try to PASS as something they are not, is completely wasting their time and should not even think about thinking about this treatment... The whole concept of passing is flawed. I have never tried to pass as anything other than myself - which of course I do 100% of the time... I transitioned not in order to be seen as either a man or woman, but to be seen as more authentically myself! Now as I happen to be female it follows that this tends to imply being seen as female. Although when it comes to other peoples perception as to what and who they decide I am, I leave that up to those who observe me to make their minds up. I find that they always come to a conclusion that I agree with.
This of course is just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.
This vastly depends on your personality. If you're individualistic and very self-confident/charismatic, that's absolutely true. For whoever isn't in that case (and to be honest I think that's most people), it's important to feel normal, to feel like you belong, to feel like a girl. Unless taken to extremes, that's not especially unhealthy. It's just natural. Whoever does not change themselves (or wants to do so) considering others is rather special, I'd say.
Quote from: vegie271 on August 13, 2013, 11:02:32 AM
Well - I have had no surgeries at all and I do fine - just HRT & electrolysis (a WHOLE lot of that! a fortune)
and of course at that income you can't even take advantage of the fact that the stuff is tax deductible. :'( it is enough of your income but at that level I know you don't pay any because neither do I at my level (at least if we are talking US)
Yeah, I don't pay any taxes, if that's what you mean. I'm too poor for that. Anyway for sure electrolysis isn't deductible for me. It can be entirely reimbursed if proven necessary (check) and performed entirely by a doctor (not check... whatever doctor does an esthetician's job? Silly law.) And medications are partly paid for by the government, but I still pay a bit over 80 $ a month for everything I take.
The student financial aid used to reimburse that for me, but no more, because apparently this year my 10 000 $ of income is plenty and I don't qualify for help - that's the nature of my recent financial problems) The part that you pay is tax deductible, in a portion, too, but again, I pay no such thing. Funny how when you're rich enough, you actually gain savings. Bus passes are also tax deductible if you're rich enough to pay taxes. Love stupidly thought-out systems.
By the way, nope, I'm not in the US.
Quote from: iiii on August 13, 2013, 10:15:16 AM
I don't know really, I think a lot of people need body surgeries too. Even with a fairly feminine face, one might not pass because of an excessively masculine body shape.
Yeah, I can't deny that. But even then, for the vast majority, at worst what's going to be affected is their passability when in a bikini. And then... People will have doubts but then see breasts and go "well, that girl was just pretty unlucky, eh" 99 % of the time. There's a trans girl I saw. Honestly when I look at her in a bikini, I think her passability is so-so. But then if I look at her breasts, and cannot possibly see a guy in her. Just a girl with a not so ideal body.
Body shape, outside extreme and rare cases, can hardly be such a big barrier on passing, I think. Especially if you know about it and camouflage the problem. Here I basically have no waist to speak of, and my body shape is everything but womanly except maybe the slightly large hips for a man. Yet even though some clothes (like most dresses) make me look ugly because of my body shape, a lot of what I wear (and like) camouflages the disadvantageous parts of my body and there, magic, I pass very convincingly and hardly look weird.
Passing without trying in any sort of clothes whatsoever isn't for everyone, sure. And I'll admit it is sad sometimes to have to sacrifice some clothes because they make your body look manly. But is that really the end of the world? And no one says that HRT, well-targeted exercise and dieting won't make things better. Or that fat transfer surgeries aren't a valid last resort option.
Quote from: A on August 13, 2013, 09:17:54 PM
Body shape, outside extreme and rare cases, can hardly be such a big barrier on passing, I think. Especially if you know about it and camouflage the problem. Here I basically have no waist to speak of, and my body shape is everything but womanly except maybe the slightly large hips for a man. Yet even though some clothes (like most dresses) make me look ugly because of my body shape, a lot of what I wear (and like) camouflages the disadvantageous parts of my body and there, magic, I pass very convincingly and hardly look weird.
Passing without trying in any sort of clothes whatsoever isn't for everyone, sure. And I'll admit it is sad sometimes to have to sacrifice some clothes because they make your body look manly. But is that really the end of the world? And no one says that HRT, well-targeted exercise and dieting won't make things better. Or that fat transfer surgeries aren't a valid last resort option.
yeah but but but - I have the same body my mother had - she did not have a waist either - ;) it is weird - when I transitioned in 1987 a friend saw me on the street coming towards him the first time I had seen him and he did not see me so I got out of my car and ran towards him and he stopped dead and just stared "who is this womyn just running at me?" and when I was right at him suddenly he recognized me and he was shocked he realized I look exactly like her - it was the first time he saw it.
I'm sorry but could you reformulate? I'm not following what you're trying to tell me very well. Also, womyn? Typo?
Just give wait for the magic of HRT to happen to you.
Hormones are one hell of a drug let me tell you. Most of us trans people have things about us that are masculine that we unfortunately can't change (I have broad shoulders). Don't doubt yourself. Be confident! :D
Quote from: A on August 13, 2013, 09:52:06 PM
I'm sorry but could you reformulate? I'm not following what you're trying to tell me very well. Also, womyn? Typo?
;D nope - alternate Feminist spelling - I transitioned in 1987 I have this thing against men I have been a lesbian for a long time & I just do it - reformulate what?
I knew a guy in high school call him ted -
he said high to me one day in the locker room I said f you - later I saw him in band - he said high again he kept after me and we became friends
after I moved to LA he came to visit me after my transition - he was not sure what to expect - he had come down one day while I was still at work and stopped at a fast food and had dinner and was walking down the street and I saw him, I stopped my car and got out and ran towards him
at first he had no Idea who this strange person was running towards him was then with shock he saw my mother running towards him just somewhat younger
then he grabbed me and hugged me
got in my car and we continued on to my apartment
Quote from: vegie271 on August 13, 2013, 10:35:24 PM
;D nope - alternate Feminist spelling - I transitioned in 1987 I have this thing against men I have been a lesbian for a long time & I just do it
Have you always disliked men this much? I know that horrible thing happened to you but not every guy is like that. I love them and am in love with one. I know I'm going to get hurt but I don't care. I'm sure I'll be crying to the good people of Susan's. Well I hope not. Gawd I don't want to be one of those girls who dreams of marriage right away. But it would be great and I haven't wore a wedding dress since 1998.
I think I'd make a pretty pretty bride. Then I'd sent the pics to my ex-fiance and tell her who is prettier now biotch! She said I would never ever be pretty and that I'd pass but I'd be fugly. Of course she wouldn't let me pluck my eyebrows as I'd be too pretty. She did wax them for me. Then left me. I think women can be a lot worse then men.
On the question of passing, blending and being yourself ...
I just want to feel as though my external presentation matches my internal self, so yes, I want to be the 'real me'
I'm vain and very particular about my appearance so I want to look as attractive and feminine as is possible for a 6ft gal in her 50s. I want to wear pretty clothes and enjoy doing my make-up and hair (even if it is a wig or a weave!) And I absolutely want to have a female voice, which is why I'm loving Jen's thread about her amazing Yeson surgery.
But what I really want is to be with a bunch of other women, doing something as boring as standing in line for the ladies' room. And when the other girls check me out - because all women check other women, and in much more detail than men ever do - I just want them to see a tall woman with enviably long legs but tragically big feet, not someone who makes them think, 'Omigod, is that a MAN??!!'
I hope that's not too much to ask.
Quote from: Carlita on August 14, 2013, 05:56:14 AM
But what I really want is to be with a bunch of other women, doing something as boring as standing in line for the ladies' room. And when the other girls check me out - because all women check other women, and in much more detail than men ever do - I just want them to see a tall woman with enviably long legs but tragically big feet, not someone who makes them think, 'Omigod, is that a MAN??!!'
I hope that's not too much to ask.
I have stood side-by-side with women in women's restrooms without wearing make-up and while wearing the same "boy clothes" that I've had for most of the last decade. Not once have I gotten a weird look in that situation. On the other hand, men have given me weird looks in men's restrooms, which is why I finally stopped using them two months ago.
Sure, I'm a few inches shorter and half your age, but your original question was whether trans women can "pass" well enough to not be clocked in situations like restrooms. It is possible for you.
Something else to keep in mind is that secondary sex characteristics fade with age, so appearance-wise, cis women in their 50s look much closer to cis men in their 50s than cis women in their 20s vs. cis men in their 20s. So your age may actually help you blend better, even if your height doesn't.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 13, 2013, 10:46:50 PM
Have you always disliked men this much? I know that horrible thing happened to you but not every guy is like that. I love them and am in love with one. I know I'm going to get hurt but I don't care. I'm sure I'll be crying to the good people of Susan's. Well I hope not. Gawd I don't want to be one of those girls who dreams of marriage right away. But it would be great and I haven't wore a wedding dress since 1998.
I think I'd make a pretty pretty bride. Then I'd sent the pics to my ex-fiance and tell her who is prettier now biotch! She said I would never ever be pretty and that I'd pass but I'd be fugly. Of course she wouldn't let me pluck my eyebrows as I'd be too pretty. She did wax them for me. Then left me. I think women can be a lot worse then men.
I have always been attracted to females - I knew I was this way very young - just my orientation - but in 1987 when I first transitioned they said you had to date men to get HRT - so I did - except for two it was an absolutely horrid experience - one was f2m he was just a one night stand (which I hate but at least he was nice about it) - The other one was an executive producer of the show Jeopardy, we dated for over a year he was very sweet - we even stayed friends for years. but eventually my therapist realized I hated doing this and let me "come out" and I went to the Gay & Lesbian Center in West Hollywood and I started meeting other lesbians.
I did not really start hating men at that point - just did not want to date them - they would leave me alone mostly except that they would always be jerks and hoot and whistle at me as I walked down the street or make nasty remarks I would hear construction workers say stuff as I walked down the road also (same stuff) I just got tired of the disrespect towards womyn (this is the attitude you get from lesbians & feminists as I was learning (I had joined an encounter group with several cis womyn in stealth mode) when I moved to my new city after losing my job later in 1991 I was out of work and the area could not support programmer so I went to a business school to learn secretarial stuff and there ran into other problems.
It is the aggregate of all of my encounters with men though these years and several times have had men come after me when I try to meet womyn either in person or online that I am so mad at them they are too many to list here I actually have many. 8 cases of scams online - years of trying to meet womyn and men trolling for me and telling me "but why are you trolling for men then" ... "WTF!" every single ad I run explicitly says no men!
plus I have actually been raped 3 times - and a man had the nerve to just walk up to me on the street and just grab my breast - every time I ride the bus men tell me they can "cure my lesbianism" just give them a chance ???
this is quickly becoming a rant not an explanation. but really these are my reasons. all of them carefully reasoned out. none exaggerated.
Sorry vegie271 I am a little confused why is it illegal for you to save up the money?
Quote from: EmeraldPerpugilliam on August 14, 2013, 11:51:54 AM
Sorry vegie271 I am a little confused why is it illegal for you to save up the money?
I am in the US - I am on SSI - it is one of the rules - if you are on SSI your assets are limited to $2000. period - total cash and savings - you can have a checking that fluctuates through the month to pay bills but if your assets exceeds $2000 they will end your insurance and medicare bam and you are eligible to get it ever again.
But that's silly. Be reckless and never keep a penny, and we keep paying. Be smart and save up some, and then we cut you off? Sigh.
Quote from: A on August 14, 2013, 01:07:07 PM
But that's silly. Be reckless and never keep a penny, and we keep paying. Be smart and save up some, and then we cut you off? Sigh.
did I create the system? no! I just paid into it - I worked very hard at a job - then due to having been forced to work under impossible conditions while having been forced to detransition with reparative therapy keeping me from having the surgery that I had the money for >:( I finally broke - my mind snapped - they gave me SSI on the first try. They make the rules - I just live by them - they don't make sense to me either.
I can't even get a job to supplement my income - I am allowed to make about $200 a month and if I work more than 9 months - again they take everything away! even if all I do is that little $200 a month for 9 months with no benefits. I can't win. I am stuck in poverty for the rest of my life. Which is horrid to me because it means I live in slums and I hate it. I like country living. I ABHOR cities.
If you can work for 9 months, maybe you could work and go off SSi, then you could make more money.
Hey there everyone! :)
...I know I'm not "qualified" to answer this thread as such as I am not on MTF HRT, but there is the option for me to take it, and this has of course meant ALOT of thinking, and more thinking (and some more thinking) about the whole "passing" (yes, I think "blending is a better term too).
Clunky metaphor:
A director may win an Oscar for a film only once, perhaps twice, and then not win again, but the fact they DID win an Oscar still counts more than the other times that they didn't win. The not winning in other years, doesn't disqualify them from the Oscar that they did win at that time. And of course ultimately if the director believes that their film is an excellent work of art regardless of whether it attracts external accolades....then the Oscar is cheerfully rendered meaningless, as they already felt their film, and their effort, was wonderful anyway!Yes, that is a clunky metaphor and the real word is a little more complicated and crueller. Blending-in can be a matter of simple survival etc. But having a cast-iron belief in YOURSELF is more rewarding and ultimately more self-protective than having a cast-iron belief in the system (human society, or the Oscar judging panel) - as the system is faulty, corrupt, has dubious values and may turn-on you anyway. The more you pander to society, the less personal power you will have, and the more power they will have. That's not healthy.
~~~
Also, passing/blending as a definite gender doesn't appear doesn't appear to be a fixed destination at all, there's so many variables (who you may be standing next too - petite young woman or older male for example), lighting, your age, your clothes etc etc etc. It can be generally advisable(for security and fitting in) to aim for being able to blend/pass (only if you want to or feel you need to). And if you do successfully pass at least once (when you didn't ever pre-HRT/FFS), then take that as the "yep, you've passed" confirmation, not any other potential times that you didn't. The next twenty times you might have been in the worst lighting, surrounded by college girls and wearing a sack. Those twenty times don't disqualify you from the time you did pass.
Society demands you conform to a stereotype.....but then tries to catch-you out when you try to. It's like a game of hide and seek to them: Force people to conform, wait for them to try to conform, then run to catch-them out and tell them that - guess what! - they don't conform. That's how flawed society is. I feel one has to try and rise above in order to avoid playing the game as much as possible. The game's rules are always skewed in favour of the society. You can't win the game. You can't beat society. The system will prevail. But you can become exempt from playing the game or simply break the game and not play it - if you're strong enough and give YOURSELF more value than society.
~~~
As for myself, I'm unsure about HRT and transitioning for many reasons. Being androgyne of course - there's as little emphasis on joining the ladies' club as there is of wanting to join the men's club, despite the fact that I don't like looking male and I like people thinking I'm female. (I have my own baggage to sort I know). Personally, I doubt I'd ever pass anyway, but even if I did, I don't see why I should conform to society's idea of passing. I like my male name, its my name, I am no one else. I like my deeper voice, it's my voice, I don't want to simulate another voice. What would be the point in competing in the passing game when I may "win" sometimes and "loose" sometimes? I want to override the system and simply be presentable and productive. And some places on earth will give me ->-bleeped-<- for this, and some places won't.
Did I loose everyone half way through? I have a tendency to write big-budget-epic posts that may not be intelligible (just like most blockbusters then) :P
Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 14, 2013, 01:39:19 PM
If you can work for 9 months, maybe you could work and go off SSi, then you could make more money.
best I can make at a job is $9 an hour 30 hours a week with no benefits - that is about 65% what I get and I get insurance now why would I throw this away? just to have someone scream at me all day and stress me out so I can have another nervous breakdown (and with no insurance be off my HRT and with less money be homeless)
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on August 14, 2013, 07:00:15 PM
Hey there everyone! :)
...I know I'm not "qualified" to answer this thread as such as I am not on MTF HRT, but there is the option for me to take it, and this has of course meant ALOT of thinking, and more thinking (and some more thinking) about the whole "passing" (yes, I think "blending is a better term too).
Me neither, but I don't think that disqualifies you, or me from sharing our thoughts, feelings and experiences .. hope not, anyway!