I have a question based on something that happened a few days ago. I was out with some acquaintances and we were at a bar. I knew the bartender since we were teens, and knew he was trans. My acquaintance asked me if he (the bartender) was trans. I told her it's not my place to disclose if he is or isn't. She kept pestering me about it, asked him about his tattoos (she pointed out his transgender related tattoo) and it just all seemed really inappropriate to me. I felt uncomfortable because she kept talking about trans people, and I wasn't all that interested in discussing my experiences as a trans person. I also kept trying to change the topic to basically "anything else."
In a situation like this, where you have somebody who wants to know another person's trans status and just keeps bringing it up, what do you do? Are there better ways to go about responding than what I did?
"It's not my place to discuss this" and walk away.
I always wonder why people do things like that – press issues and keep trying to talk about something. Like they can't understand a simple statement like, "It's not my place to disclose ...".
If it were me, and she kept pestering after I'd already given what I thought was a clear statement that I would not discuss it, I'd probably same something like, "You do know it's rude and inappropriate to keep asking questions like this about someone's gender."
I think you handled the situation nicely. I would just say it really doesn't matter.
I would ask them point blank, 'What's it to you?' But then again, maybe not. Maybe it would be a signal for the end of the conversation and the meeting and I would make my excuses and leave.
I don't have time for anyone who wants to discuss something that's so personal and intimate to another person with me (unless of course it's connected to a relationship issue which directly involves them). I find it's a social faux pas on the same level as farting openly or belching. Usually the intention or motivation behind it isn't pleasant and I do what I can to eliminate such people from my life as quickly as possible.
Gonna buck the trend here.
Nigeel, I think you handled it fine. But I don't think you were obligated to keep this guy's identity secret.
I'd say it depends on the friendship you have with both and how you found out he was trans.
If you found it out from a support group group or some place where confidential information was shared, or if he told you in private, then you are ethically bound to keep his confidence.
If you found out in some other way, i.e. someone told you, you clocked him, you saw him at a trans rally, he told you in public, you saw his youtube video, or you knew him before his transition, etc., then you have no obligation to keep his secret. You're also not obligated to judge your acquaintance's motives for asking. I try not to keep secrets from my close friends unless I've agreed not to tell.
As someone who's often socially clueless, I depend on my friends to help me navigate the social landscape. And I have unfortunately felt the painful sting of being the only one who didn't know something because I was a bit of a social outcast and had no one close enough to me to tell me. Having friends tell me things that might be common knowledge to some others has helped me on numerous occasions. I try to return the favor when I can.
There are people who say "never gossip." I'm not one of those people. I have no ethical problem with divulging facts about other people. It's just not my responsibilities to keep their secret unless it was told to me in confidence. (I consider a friend telling me something in private, a confidence, whether or not I'm asked not to tell).
I know we'd like people not to out us, but that isn't an overarching principal. Friendship, trust, and confidences figure into it as well.
OK, go ahead and flame me...
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 04, 2013, 05:03:45 PM
Gonna buck the trend here.
Nigeel, I think you handled it fine. But I don't think you were obligated to keep this guy's identity secret.
I'd say it depends on the friendship you have with both and how you found out he was trans.
If you found it out from a support group group or some place where confidential information was shared, or if he told you in private, then you are ethically bound to keep his confidence.
If you found out in some other way, i.e. someone told you, you clocked him, you saw him at a trans rally, he told you in public, you saw his youtube video, or you knew him before his transition, etc., then you have no obligation to keep his secret. You're also not obligated to judge your acquaintance's motives for asking. I try not to keep secrets from my close friends unless I've agreed not to tell.
As someone who's often socially clueless, I depend on my friends to help me navigate the social landscape. And I have unfortunately felt the painful sting of being the only one who didn't know something because I was a bit of a social outcast and had no one close enough to me to tell me. Having friends tell me things that might be common knowledge to some others has helped me on numerous occasions. I try to return the favor when I can.
There are people who say "never gossip." I'm not one of those people. I have no ethical problem with divulging facts about other people. It's just not my responsibilities to keep their secret unless it was told to me in confidence. (I consider a friend telling me something in private, a confidence, whether or not I'm asked not to tell).
I know we'd like people not to out us, but that isn't an overarching principal. Friendship, trust, and confidences figure into it as well.
OK, go ahead and flame me...
If someone else told you his status, that doesn't mean you should do the same, it's rude and uncalled for. "Clocking someone" isn't proof, because you can never actually know unless that person tells you that they are indeed trans, you are just making an assumption. Being at a trans rally isn't proof because there are allies. Even if he tells you specifically, it's not your place to out him unless he gives permission to be outed, same goes for youtube videos. Even if you "knew him before transition" that still doesn't give anyone the right to out him. Basically no outing is appropriate unless given permission by the person.
Nygeel is well within his rights to judge the acquaintance's motives. There is no need to know if someone is trans or not, besides the obvious gossip factor.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 04, 2013, 04:12:51 PM
I always wonder why people do things like that – press issues and keep trying to talk about something. Like they can't understand a simple statement like, "It's not my place to disclose ...".
If it were me, and she kept pestering after I'd already given what I thought was a clear statement that I would not discuss it, I'd probably same something like, "You do know it's rude and inappropriate to keep asking questions like this about someone's gender."
This. Or perhaps, say first, "Why don't you ask him (her)?"
Then say it's rude...and the evening ends right there.
I knew this guy before he transitioned, and he knew me before I transitioned. I think he's trying to live his life fairly stealth, and I really don't know him very well. He has been on testosterone for maybe 8 years or so, and has had top surgery so it's not like he looks ambiguous or is early in transition (physically).
I probably wouldn't have said that, because I'd be paranoid that they'd read into it and realise that I'd have probably said, "What, no?" if they were cis. If they didn't know that I'd known them for a long time I'd have probably just tried to play it cool and tell them that I didn't know, any why didn't they ask them, but make it perfectly clear that it's not an okay question through my mannerisms.
I think you handled it fine. One could also ask if it matters.
I think you handle it good, im very bad at those kind of situations I still stugles with one of my ftms who gave birth to a kid, and each time I say he has a kid people are like.. "but there gay? so did they adopt?" "so what surrogate? is that legal there?" "he had sex with a girl? didnt you say he was gay"
I agree with Alexander. Saying you don't know or just who cares may be fine but anything else ambiguous says yes they are trans, even if you told them it was rude or to ask the person themselves.
It depends on the person and how they present themself.
If I dont know, I'd just lie.
"No, those aren't trans tats. You're blind. STFU. Drink your beer."
You'll be forgiven. :)
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 04, 2013, 05:03:45 PM
There are people who say "never gossip." I'm not one of those people. I have no ethical problem with divulging facts about other people.
Congrats, that has to be one of the crappiest statements I've read all year. I live my life by a few rules and one of them is, "If I wouldn't want it done to me I won't do it to someone else". Also, remember that if someone will do it with you they will do it to you. Keep gossiping, it'll bite you in the rump eventually.
Back to the OP. Since you knew the guy I probably would have asked to speak with him outside when he got a break. Let him make the call if he was comfortable with divulging to her. In the meantime I would have changed the subject as many times as it took to get her to take a hint. If she persisted I would have went to the bathroom then came back and said I got a text and had to go.
Quote from: AlexanderC on August 04, 2013, 05:37:24 PM
I probably wouldn't have said that, because I'd be paranoid that they'd read into it and realise that I'd have probably said, "What, no?" if they were cis. If they didn't know that I'd known them for a long time I'd have probably just tried to play it cool and tell them that I didn't know, any why didn't they ask them, but make it perfectly clear that it's not an okay question through my mannerisms.
I agree with Alex, to me something like "I am not in the position to disclose" means "Yes, he's trans". I would've just said "I am not sure" and if she pointed out the trans tattoos and I would've just said something like "hmm... maybe he is, but that doesn't really mean anything."
Though I guess it's different if your friend knew that you knew the bartender since you were both teens, then your response is appropriate, though if I was her, I'd still take the "I am not in a position to disclose" statement as yes. It's still basically outing IMO, but there's really no way to get around it.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing with the statement "it's not my position to disclose." I think I might say "why does it matter?" instead.
Awhile back when I was in college my professor was a trans man. I knew because he was also the foster parent of somebody I was friends with. Before class the students would talk about how there was a transgender prof, asked each other about what he looked like "before" and what his name must've been. It pissed me off. One of the young women in the class said "I wonder what it looks like" referring to his crotch. I responded (with much more vulgar language) "why? Do you want to have sex with him?" which pretty much stopped the conversation for that day.
I think I might use that one again next time somebody asks me about anybody's trans status. Heck, if people ask me what's in my pants I'll start saying "why, do you want to get in them?" Even though it won't be a serious tone, people will assume I'm partially serious and most likely will give the "icks."
Quote from: Nygeel on August 05, 2013, 11:47:03 AM
I think I might use that one again next time somebody asks me about anybody's trans status. Heck, if people ask me what's in my pants I'll start saying "why, do you want to get in them?" Even though it won't be a serious tone, people will assume I'm partially serious and most likely will give the "icks."
That's a good idea. You'll want to stop the convo in its tracks. I would never, ever, never (did I say never) disclose someone's trans status to a stranger whether he had a tattoo or not. It's never okay.
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 04, 2013, 05:03:45 PM
If you found out in some other way, i.e. someone told you, you clocked him, you saw him at a trans rally,
These things don't mean anything. The first one is hearsay, the second isn't always accurate, and lots of non-trans people go to trans rallies. And if someone tells me confidentially, I'll keep the secret.
Considering that many of us face discrimination, violence, and even death when our history becomes known, I feel that it is always best to keep one's counsel unless one is
explicitly told by the party in question that it is
always okay to disclose his or her status.
What if a couple of transphobic individuals are sitting nearby and happen to overhear? Not cool.
Regarding the OP, I've actually been in a similar experience myself, but the questioner was not persistent. My response was, "Why don't you ask HIM?" Nowadays, I would add that asking is the only way to be sure, unless the person in question likes to mess with people's heads.
Answering a rude question without telling a lie yourself is a good skill to have in many situations and is worthwhile practicing.
Quote from: Arch on August 05, 2013, 12:31:11 PM
Answering a rude question without telling a lie yourself is a good skill to have in many situations and is worthwhile practicing.
I needed that laugh.
I don't think I've ever been asked if someone else was trans, but I have been asked if a trans friend had "the surgery" yet. My response was "I don't know, I don't ask her those kinds of questions."
So maybe if someone asks "is that person trans?" you could say "I don't know." Lol. It's not true, yeah, you know he is trans...but eh. I think saying something along the lines of "it's not my place to say" pretty much confirms their "suspicions." Honestly, if they asked him and he said yeah, and they somehow found out you lied about not knowing - then say, "well, it's none of your business to ask me that in the first place, and I'm not going to out my friend without his permission, so yeah, I lied."
I've encountered people like that though and it reminds me why I've come to hate a lot of people - those who are educated enough to recognize trans symbols and whatnot, but apparently lack the education to know that it's not their business and not appropriate to assume someone is trans. Do they look at all the men they see on the street and think "hey, I wonder if that guy is trans, I totally need to know so I can be a good ally to him."
It is so not cool to out someone to your buddies just because you have no sense of ethics. Ever heard the term, "Loose lips sink ships?"
If the wrong people found out then it could endanger that person. I know some of us are flag wavers and out and proud, but that person has every right not to have their personal history divulged to someone they have never met. If someone tells me they are trans, then it goes no further unless told otherwise. And a trans tattoo doesn't automatically mean a person is trans. What if they have it in support of a brother or sister who transitioned and was murdered? People get all kinds of tattoos for all manner of reasons.
Nygeel, you did the right thing. Good on you! :)
Not to derail the thread, but that's a really cute pic, Keaira.
All right, back on track.
Quote from: AlexanderC on August 04, 2013, 05:37:24 PM
I probably wouldn't have said that, because I'd be paranoid that they'd read into it and realise that I'd have probably said, "What, no?" if they were cis. If they didn't know that I'd known them for a long time I'd have probably just tried to play it cool and tell them that I didn't know, any why didn't they ask them, but make it perfectly clear that it's not an okay question through my mannerisms.
I am going to be living stealth - seriously people - this is the proper reaction to be giving! any cis person give the reaction WTF! is that person trans? they either have no idea what you are talking about or can not see what you are seeing.
AND if you were to ask a cis man if he were trans this means you are saying he was born a womon - he is going to slug you.
Quote from: vegie271 on August 06, 2013, 08:50:48 AM
I am going to be living stealth - seriously people - this is the proper reaction to be giving! any cis person give the reaction WTF! is that person trans? they either have no idea what you are talking about or can not see what you are seeing.
AND if you were to ask a cis man if he were trans this means you are saying he was born a womon - he is going to slug you.
We're not born women but I'm going to skip that.
It's much more likely for him to think the other way around since most people only know of the existence of trans women, crossdressers, etc.
Quote from: Nygeel on August 06, 2013, 09:27:27 AM
We're not born women but I'm going to skip that.
It's much more likely for him to think the other way around since most people only know of the existence of trans women, crossdressers, etc.
my bad declared female at birth I have been corrected *embarrassed*
Quote from: Arch on August 06, 2013, 12:47:42 AM
Not to derail the thread, but that's a really cute pic, Keaira.
All right, back on track.
Thank you. ^_^
So.., yes... back on topic.
Look guys, we need to respect each other enough not to spread gossip about our brothers and sisters. No one else will respect that right. Heck, up in Caleb's neck of the woods, the gay community tries to out us.
When I worked at Valeo Sylvania there was this one incident where I was trying to get a press to make good parts. And an Engineer across from me was doing the same with some prototype parts. He came over to me and said, " I really admire you and respect you for what you are doing."
I was a little confused. And asked him to please clarify that statement.
He said, " For going through all this for your wife and trying to make the marriage work."
I was still confused. But I had an idea of what he was talking about. Finally he explained that he had heard that my wife was a lesbian and that I was transitioning because I wanted to still be with her.
I explained to him that my wire is very much a straight woman, she does not like my transition one bit and I am doing this for reasons he probably wouldn't understand.
He looked a little embarassed but, he at least knew the truth straight from the horses mouth. It would have been very easy to play along with this rumor but I wont spread rumors and gossip. It kind of hurt to have my life spread about the factory in such a fantastical story.
Better to be hated for who you are than loved for something you're not.. -Kurt Cobain