To transition and stay in the same place you were in previously, it requires telling others that you are trans and asking for your new name and new pronouns. It is divulging information that is incredibly personal - at work, to your friends, even to random acquaintances who knew you before.
But at the same time there is friction when someone is curious about what it means to be trans - people get overly interested and ask very private questions that are none of their business.
But it sorta makes sense that they would in the above context, doesn't it? You are making your business their business, and then they continue to do so because it is novel to them, and after having told them one aspect of it - they no doubt want to satisfy their curiosity about it. They don't understand the line because they have no experience drawing it and no context to go off of.
I worked someplace years ago where my supervisor transitioned (way before I had come to terms with anything about myself, and she is a trans woman), and so I was privy to the conversations between co-workers that happened outside of work and when she was not around. Mostly it was just confusion and nervous avoidance of saying anything that could be taken the wrong way, but people also just had no clue what it all meant.
My point is just that maybe people who ask really private questions should be cut some slack about it by us, as they don't know any better, and the only signal they have from us about what is appropriate is us telling them private information in the first place.
Quote from: CaseyB on August 05, 2013, 12:29:54 PM
People need to learn how to use the internet.
That would be nice, but it's a pretty darn tall order. Lots of folks in the middle and later years don't understand how search engines work to look up a dang recipe, let alone even know how to begin looking for trans* information or knowing what kind of information is available online. I honestly don't expect that kind of skill from anyone older than 35 and suspect that I'll be doing a lot of nervous hand-holding for my parents when I come out. Expecting a certain level of technology literacy from everyone just isn't realistic.
Before I come out at work, I plan to build a small page and post it on the organization intranet. I'll include a personal and general FAQ and a decent, but not overwhelming info package (general information, organizational policy, provincial non-discrimination laws). When people ask me questions, I'll refer them to my page. If the question they've asked isn't on there, my hope is that they'll take it as a pretty big hint that the information isn't fair game.
Lo's absolutely right that it's naive and counterproductive to assume technological literacy, but there's no reason that you can't scaffold/shape your coworkers' information retrieval.
Maddy
Quote from: CaseyB on August 05, 2013, 12:29:54 PM
People need to learn how to use the internet.
That and piggybacking on the next poster's post about older people not knowing how the search engines work, have you ever tried searching for trans before? Even when I found the first internet search engine and didn't know the terminology, almost every search I typed in resulted in at least a full page of porn sites. I'd imagine that would turn people off of looking at the Internet or even get them convinced that you're just a sex addict, even if they did know how to search.
Quote from: spacerace on August 05, 2013, 12:27:09 PM
My point is just that maybe people who ask really private questions should be cut some slack about it by us, as they don't know any better, and the only signal they have from us about what is appropriate is us telling them private information in the first place.
I agree. Not everyone is adept at doing research on the Internet and a lot of the stuff there is wrong. I haven't seen a media story about transgender that got it remotely right.
When someone asks me a question, I see it as my mission to educate them best I can. As an educator, I believe anyone can be educated. Also, I want to project the point of view that I'm not ashamed of being transgender and am perfectly comfortable talking about it.
Spacerace you are right on, relative to my experience with staying in place and transitioning. Yes, we are new, novel and people are naturally curious. I feel great about helping to educate others as I educate myself. We who are transitioning or way past that, have unique perspectives and feelings about gender that I once only dreamed about. Most people I have met are tentative or feel awkward about asking anything. And then there are less friendly types who say things like "since you are being honest about how you feel, I feel OK about being honest too and I honestly think you are sick." Funny, now that my skin is becoming softer I have also needed to let it get thicker!
We need not let others dictate how we feel but the more experience we get telling our own story the better we may understand ourselves?
Quote from: Tessa James on August 06, 2013, 12:07:00 PM
Spacerace you are right on, relative to my experience with staying in place and transitioning. Yes, we are new, novel and people are naturally curious. I feel great about helping to educate others as I educate myself. We who are transitioning or way past that, have unique perspectives and feelings about gender that I once only dreamed about. Most people I have met are tentative or feel awkward about asking anything. And then there are less friendly types who say things like "since you are being honest about how you feel, I feel OK about being honest too and I honestly think you are sick." Funny, now that my skin is becoming softer I have also needed to let it get thicker!
We need not let others dictate how we feel but the more experience we get telling our own story the better we may understand ourselves?
not me I have been bullied too often over my life over this subject - from the time of childhood - it is too sensitive - intolerance an ignorance are a choices the way I was born was NOT
Quote from: Tessa James on August 06, 2013, 12:07:00 PM
And then there are less friendly types who say things like "since you are being honest about how you feel, I feel OK about being honest too and I honestly think you are sick."
I haven't yet seen that kind of naked hostility in person (though one of my cousins unloaded on me on my facebook page). I hope I don't let it intimidate me or scare me off. Though there are a lot of people who lack the compassion necessary to understand why we need to transition, I don't feel the need to tailor my actions to avoid those folk.
I'm not terribly interested in answering questions of my parents and siblings or my inlaws, but everyone else? I'd rather they ask me than search the Internet, I want to control as much as possible the message they receive.
Quote from: ashley_thomas on August 06, 2013, 01:13:14 PM
I'm not terribly interested in answering questions of my parents and siblings or my inlaws, but everyone else? I'd rather they ask me than search the Internet, I want to control as much as possible the message they receive.
There was a time I did not mind giving people an honest education - and I have been with our local Gay & Lesbian center and our local LGBTQ group at things and sat at tables as a representative and educated people I have answered people questions on Yahoo for years however I won't put up with out and out hate
Agreed
Quote from: CaseyB on August 06, 2013, 04:47:18 PM
Perhaps for people that are wanting to learn more and not just asking out of hate, the appropriate question would be, "I don't completely understand, how can I get more information on this to answer any questions I have?"
Agreed. But not everyone is articulate enough to phrase questions delicately all the time. Unless their vocabulary or body language tells me otherwise, I assume they're just asking for information.
BTW Casey, I like your epigram "I'm not a man, not yet a woman". It bucks orthodoxy, but it SO describes how I've felt through most of this process.
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 06, 2013, 05:45:29 PM
Agreed. But not everyone is articulate enough to phrase questions delicately all the time. Unless their vocabulary or body language tells me otherwise, I assume they're just asking for information.
BTW Casey, I like your epigram "I'm not a man, not yet a woman". It bucks orthodoxy, but it SO describes how I've felt through most of this process.
Yes, compassion, empathy. "slack" and being able to read that nuanced body language and vocabulary are useful skills for sharing our private information in a public place?
Casey's epigram resonates for me too
Quote from: Emily Aster on August 05, 2013, 02:34:30 PM
That and piggybacking on the next poster's post about older people not knowing how the search engines work, have you ever tried searching for trans before? Even when I found the first internet search engine and didn't know the terminology, almost every search I typed in resulted in at least a full page of porn sites. I'd imagine that would turn people off of looking at the Internet or even get them convinced that you're just a sex addict, even if they did know how to search.
Yes gawd the sheer amount of bad and erroneous information out there (and that's not even getting into the porn, blech) makes me actually NOT want to tell someone to look it up for themselves, lol! I would feel so much better about being able to give them a more curated and relevant learning experience because who knows what the heck they'll find if I send them off to find out on their own.
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 06, 2013, 05:45:29 PM
Agreed. But not everyone is articulate enough to phrase questions delicately all the time. Unless their vocabulary or body language tells me otherwise, I assume they're just asking for information.
Yeah, tone, wording, and body language is totally they key here.
Shame there's practically no middle ground to be found on the internet!
Quote from: Lo on August 05, 2013, 12:53:14 PM
I honestly don't expect that kind of skill from anyone older than 35 and suspect that I'll be doing a lot of nervous hand-holding for my parents when I come out.
Uh, you do know that the internet is effectively run by people who are in their 30s and that every site you use was prolly created from someone around 35? No offense, you must be really young, but anyone who is in their 30s grew up with computers and search engines, this isn't something exclusive to 18 year olds. I am prolly being to senstive but I am 30 and I hardly consider myself some inept old folgie.
To piggyback on Joanna, I'm in my 50's and quite adept at searching the Internet. In fact, I teach high school students how to do it.
I'm 38 and using tapatalk on my phone computer thing so there!
Quote from: spacerace on August 05, 2013, 12:27:09 PM
My point is just that maybe people who ask really private questions should be cut some slack about it by us, as they don't know any better, and the only signal they have from us about what is appropriate is us telling them private information in the first place.
It depends on the question as to whether or not I'll cut them some slack.
Quote from: Lo on August 05, 2013, 12:53:14 PM
Lots of folks in the middle and later years don't understand how search engines work to look up a dang recipe, let alone even know how to begin looking for trans* information or knowing what kind of information is available online. I honestly don't expect that kind of skill from anyone older than 35... Expecting a certain level of technology literacy from everyone just isn't realistic.
Sorry, but I had to smile at this. I'm 41 and I selected my High School in 1984 because they offered computer lessons for all students, but at that time I felt my computer skills were falling behind the adults who were already using computers in the workplace - and many of
those people are now in their 60s, 70s and beyond. We're the people who created and embraced personal computing and we also created and popularised the Internet. Every single (decent) search engine you've ever used was invented by someone who is currently over 35. (Oh, and the guy who
invented the actual Internet? He's 58. Just saying). ;)
Now... back to the topic: I'll only answer questions if I think it's somebody's business to know the answer, but unfortunately a lot of people tend to ask inappropriate and intrusive questions. I call it the Jerry Springer Effect: many people's only exposure to trans* people has been from shows like Jerry Springer that tend to oversensationalise issues. So a girlfriend goes on Jerry to reveal to her boyfriend that she's "really a dude!" and it's a massive shocker and everyone laughs and much transphobia abounds. Wonderful. >:(
But that kind of thing is the only exposure that many people have had to trans* people, so when they meet an actual trans* person IRL they tend to think in a continuation of that same frame of mind. So they'll ask what's in my underwear or how I have sex or any of a huge range of inappropriate Jerry-style questions. That's not OK.
I've made the mistake before of answering those kind of questions, and they only tend to escalate as people presume that your reply gives them permission to keep asking even more intrusive questions. So in my experience, it's best to nip it in the bud. So my response is to say: "I'm sorry, but that's a very personal question" because I know that answering those kind of questions generally makes me feel increasingly uncomfortable. I've recently had to drop my Personal Trainer for this exact reason.
This is my actual life, not the Jerry Springer show.
(In his defence: I'm not singling out Jerry's show here; I'm just using it as a familiar example of that kind of phenomenon)
Quote from: FTMDiaries on August 08, 2013, 07:08:35 AM
But that kind of thing is the only exposure that many people have had to trans* people, so when they meet an actual trans* person IRL they tend to think in a continuation of that same frame of mind. So they'll ask what's in my underwear or how I have sex or any of a huge range of inappropriate Jerry-style questions. That's not OK.
I've made the mistake before of answering those kind of questions, and they only tend to escalate as people presume that your reply gives them permission to keep asking even more intrusive questions. So in my experience, it's best to nip it in the bud. So my response is to say: "I'm sorry, but that's a very personal question" because I know that answering those kind of questions generally makes me feel increasingly uncomfortable. I've recently had to drop my Personal Trainer for this exact reason.
This is the problem I have had, I was raped last year and ended up in intensive therapy, people would of course find out about me, and one of the first things they would says is "so you are a man" - my immediate response is" did I ever seem like one before you found this out about me? I was was born female and I have ALWAYS been female! then really weird questions would get asked.
Quote from: vegie271 on August 08, 2013, 08:36:15 AM
This is the problem I have had, I was raped last year and ended up in intensive therapy, people would of course find out about me, and one of the first things they would says is "so you are a man" - my immediate response is" did I ever seem like one before you found this out about me? I was was born female and I have ALWAYS been female! then really weird questions would get asked.
So sorry about what you went through.
That's why I say that if you answer the first rude question, they seem to believe you've given them permission to ask you dozens more.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on August 08, 2013, 09:57:57 AM
So sorry about what you went through.
That's why I say that if you answer the first rude question, they seem to believe you've given them permission to ask you dozens more.
Pretty much - so from now on I am practicing stealth - I am moving to a new city within 4 months where I will only let my doctors office know who I am & probably a therapist & at most I will have to tell the admissions office at the college (they will need to see my old records)
Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 07, 2013, 06:46:40 PM
Uh, you do know that the internet is effectively run by people who are in their 30s and that every site you use was prolly created from someone around 35? No offense, you must be really young, but anyone who is in their 30s grew up with computers and search engines, this isn't something exclusive to 18 year olds. I am prolly being to senstive but I am 30 and I hardly consider myself some inept old folgie.
Not that young: 24. Maybe it's just me, but 9/10 of the adults older than me that I know are pretty technologically illiterate. The majority of my family doesn't use the internet beyond facebook, email, groupon, and the occasional news website.
I don't really know how my comment could have been extrued as being offensive... I'm trying to cut some slack on people that have no idea how information is cataloged and found on the internet, how search engine indexing works, how to organize keywords to find the information they need. Yeah sure, a couple dozen people invented the internet. Doesn't mean everyone else born in their decade magically knows how SEO works. ::) Yannow... unless you
want me to get frustrated and uppity with my grandmother who still doesn't know that Food Network has a website and that she can go there to find that bread pudding recipe she wanted?
Anyways.
Quote from: Lo on August 08, 2013, 09:42:59 PM
Not that young: 24. Maybe it's just me, but 9/10 of the adults older than me that I know are pretty technologically illiterate. The majority of my family doesn't use the internet beyond facebook, email, groupon, and the occasional news website.
I don't really know how my comment could have been extrued as being offensive... I'm trying to cut some slack on people that have no idea how information is cataloged and found on the internet, how search engine indexing works, how to organize keywords to find the information they need. Yeah sure, a couple dozen people invented the internet. Doesn't mean everyone else born in their decade magically knows how SEO works.
The majority of people of
all ages don't use the Internet extensively. Even teenagers only ever use FB, Instagram, Twitter and websites dedicated to their particular interests. And very few people know or care how SEO works - it's generally only those of us who have an interest in the subject, or have studied web design/development, who understand it.
I guess the reason why your comment may have been construed as offensive by some of us is because it was we over-35s who built personal computers and the Internet in the first place and taught you young whippersnappers how to use these tools. ;) It is also inappropriate to discriminate against people based on their age.
So... what was our topic here again? ;)
It's all about expectations. I don't expect most of the people I know to know the first thing about trans* concerns, I don't expect them to know how to look it up and find information that doesn't make us look worse. I'm not going to go up to an aunt or uncle and laugh at them if I find out they don't know what ctrl + alt + delete is. Young people are far more literate than previous generations-- if we don't know how to do something, we're quick to look it up and figure out how. That's something that I generally see less of in older people. Everything I know about running websites and building computers I practically learned on my own, thank you very much. ;)
Again, it's all about expectations. People get hurt if their expectations are too high. I see kids on tumblr ranting and raving about how their parents don't know what stuff like "omnigender" means, and how that's oppression, and god why can't they just educate themselves?? It's a little much if you ask me. I'm just trying to keep it real.
Quote from: Lo on August 08, 2013, 09:42:59 PM
Not that young: 24. Maybe it's just me, but 9/10 of the adults older than me that I know are pretty technologically illiterate. The majority of my family doesn't use the internet beyond facebook, email, groupon, and the occasional news website.
I don't really know how my comment could have been extrued as being offensive... I'm trying to cut some slack on people that have no idea how information is cataloged and found on the internet, how search engine indexing works, how to organize keywords to find the information they need. Yeah sure, a couple dozen people invented the internet. Doesn't mean everyone else born in their decade magically knows how SEO works. ::) Yannow... unless you want me to get frustrated and uppity with my grandmother who still doesn't know that Food Network has a website and that she can go there to find that bread pudding recipe she wanted?
Anyways.
I was just joking really lol I wasn't offended and knew exactly what you meant. Plus I'm not even 35 so yeah. Hehe