I have a good friend who is always very careful about people's feelings. She is trying hard to be a good ally.
She invited me to lunch with another friend whom I hadn't met. The three of us had lunch together, after which the friend left and my longtime friend stayed behind.
At that point I asked what her friend knew about me. She revealed that she had told her that I'm a transgender woman. I asked why.
She said that she didn't want either of us to feel uncomfortable. If her friend had noticed that I was transgender and had a problem with transgender people, the lunch would quickly have become awkward. She wanted to prevent a situation that would leave both of us feeling uncomfortable. So she told her I was a trans woman and asked whether that would be an issue before she made the invitation.
I know my friend had the best of intentions, but I was unhappy that she outed me. She said she was doing it to make sure the occasion that she was organizing didn't become unpleasant.
What do we think?
That's one thing many cis people feel a need to do, warn someone that you're not normal or really this or that. I've found that the ones that do it are often the ones who actually have some sort of issue with it, even if they are otherwise being "supportive" of you. I don't trust the ones that feel a need to out you to anyone without your permission, they apparently have no reasonable boundaries where other people's privacy is concerned.
Should have asked you first. Then if you had a problem with her outing you and she had a problem with not outing you, you can just not go to lunch. If you don't have a problem with her outing you then at least she asked.
i've a feeling that what we think might range everywhere from this to that.
what i think however is that outing someone is completely unnecessary. i will not be friends with anyone who reacts negatively to noticing that another friend of mine is or isn't whatever it may be. i don't think it should be necessary for me to tell a trans friend that my other friend dresses very black metal just to prevent any awkward feelings from happening when the two meet for the first time. and i don't think it's necessary to mention that another friend is gay or lesbian or whatever. i would mention if someone had an impressive harem though.
I think it's someone who felt the need to protect you, didn't want you to be hurt, but didn't consider how you might feel. I would give her the benefit of the doubt, tell her you were unhappy about it, and why, and ask that she not do it again.
To err is human. If she keeps erring, then maybe reconsider.
i think what sephirah said as well. she was probably doing it for your sake, out of good will. it's just something that should be unnecessary to do, but not all people realize. you should tell her how it made you feel without blaming her for it, and then see if she does it again anyway or not. hurting you when she knows it hurts you more to be outed than having things get a little awkward isn't something a friend should do, but if she understands and stops, you might have found a very good friend in her.
TOTALLY out of line! She had no business sharing YOUR secret with anyone else without asking you first.
My BFF did the same thing to me 23 years ago when I was still stealth, told her husband and her mother. I told her it was WRONG and have never shared anything private with her since nor have I considered her my BFF since.
Quote from: Sephirah on August 15, 2013, 02:50:42 PM
I think it's someone who felt the need to protect you, didn't want you to be hurt, but didn't consider how you might feel. I would give her the benefit of the doubt, tell her you were unhappy about it, and why, and ask that she not do it again.
To err is human. If she keeps erring, then maybe reconsider.
I think this is most likely the case. A lot of people aren't really familiar with trans people at all. Because of that, they don't realize that to us it's a big deal to be outed in such a way. They may not be aware that for us in some cases it can eve be down right dangerous for the wrong person to know. It sounds to me like she was well meaning and just didn't know any better. I'd suggest talking to her and telling her calmly, why and how you feel.
Hope this helps!
Quote from: Renee on August 15, 2013, 02:39:32 PM
That's one thing many cis people feel a need to do, warn someone that you're not normal or really this or that. I've found that the ones that do it are often the ones who actually have some sort of issue with it, even if they are otherwise being "supportive" of you.
I have to agree with this. If she felt the need to "warn" someone, then it likely wasn't because she thought you would feel awkward, but because
she would feel awkward. Either way it was a breach of trust, and that should be made clear to her.
It doesn't mean she's a terrible person. But I wouldn't let it go without making sure she understood what she did. But that's just me.
I do think she meant well...I had a friend who knew I was nervous about not passing, so before I came to this group meeting, she explained to everyone that I was transgender and that I should be referred to as male. I thought that was very sweet of her at the time, because I didn't pass at all and I saw her good intentions.
That said, if someone did it now, 16 months on T, I'd be pretty upset. I feel far enough in that outing is unnecessary, even though I do worry about misgendering still.
Kind of happened to me too. I am 100% out. But I really don't want someone just starting to inform people. She didn't know I was out. But I think she was totally not aware of what she was doing. I don't know that cispeople have anyway to think about this unless they actually know what to do, and I think very few actually do. Not sure what to do with it though.
--Jay
Quote from: caleb. on August 15, 2013, 05:27:06 PM
That said, if someone did it now, 16 months on T, I'd be pretty upset. I feel far enough in that outing is unnecessary, even though I do worry about misgendering still.
Caleb, I think you kind of hit upon the essence of what made me unhappy and also why this is such a thorny issue.
Part of it is that my friend's outing me was a negative comment on my passability in her eyes.
But a bigger part is that it touched on my resentment of "passing privilege", where the cis population affords more rights to passing trans women than to non-passing ones. The bathroom issue is the most obvious manifestation of this, but I think this incident is also a symptom: You need to warn your friend about a non-passing transwoman, but had I passed perfectly, no warning would have been needed.
Of course it's COMPLETELY unrealistic to expect a cis person to be up on these nuances.
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 16, 2013, 08:23:45 AM
You need to warn your friend about a non-passing transwoman, but had I passed perfectly, no warning would have been needed.
I don't know your friend's intentions, but I think sometimes it's not even about the passing issue but the 'everyone should know' issue. People still do this with gay people (oh btw, he's gay) like its relevant. Some people may even feel a stronger need to out someone who passes so nobody 'gets confused' ('deceived').
Of course, it's very possible that your friend really was concerned that the other woman might misgender you or otherwise make the meeting uncomfortable if she didn't know beforehand. But I'm not sure it's a comment on your passability. She may assume that if she can still see 'the old you' or whatever, everyone else can too.
Passing privilege DEFINITELY exists. But I don't know in my case, the person knew me (actually I had much more contact with her than I do now), I don't think she even knew how well I passed. I think it was more in the realm of gossip. And as far as gossip goes, we are such excellent subjects. What would pick up their dull lives more than someone being transgender. (I'd suggest world travel or something.) I don't mean to imply my friends are nothing but gossip, but it's an amazingly good topic. I don't think it was meant viciously (in my case-- can't speak to your's). I think there is idle gossip and vicious gossip, and I think this for me was more int he realm of idle. I think it was more a topic. HEy hot topic--_______ is now a guy!!!
The idea of not outing people as a courtesy-- I believe that's a CIS privilege to be free to out people. They are free not to understand that some people do not want to be outed and that outing is up to you. I think as FA says, people need to know this, in their minds.
--Jay
After reading everyone's comments, I need to revise my own. :)
I think everybody is right. The choices people make are rarely motivated by one single idea or intention. People are complex, our minds are complex, our feelings are complex, so naturually our choices are complex as well.
She was probably trying to protect your feelings (in her own way) but also trying to avoid an awkward situation that would make her feel uncomfortable. She probably also wants to be supportive but still working it out in her own head, and not fully understanding yet. Then of course there's the gossip factor. She probably didn't mean any harm, but she couldn't resist telling somebody. I bet its easier on friends and family if they have someone other than you to discuss it with.
I think all this adds up to a well-meaning friend who made a mistake, and probably didn't realize it. If she's a true friend she'll be compassionate if you tell her it upset you, and she'll probably be more careful in the future.
My opinion 2.0 :)
I agree with others, I think it is a teaching opportunity. There could be lots of reasons, you will never know for sure. The act caused you discomfort and unless you address the issue and teach her then it could happen again. Most likely she is kind hearted and wanted what is best but does not understand the implications of her actions.
I think that if it bothers you that your friend is willing to out you (without consent) when *she* feels it's appropriate, you need to discuss it with her and ask her not to do so in the future. You might also gently remind her that each person she informs then has the potential to distribute said information (again, without your consent).
I used to hang out with groups of people who are very different from each other. Let's see, I had my goth friends, my clubbing friends, my work friends, my college friends (a small handful who were strippers), and some people my girlfriend knew who owned their own company and was the business type who drives jaguars and golf balls. Then there was my brothers friends who were just a couple years younger than me, who we both often played all sorts of sports with, went out to the lake, had parties out in the desert, roasted marsh mellows and "tossed a few" back with. Hmm, I might be forgetting a few.
But to juggle all these groups of people I learned quick not to talk for other people. I learned it was definitely best not to explain who this person or that person was and why I hung out with them or how I knew them. It's just bad form.
The only person who I explained my friends to were my brother, my girlfriend and my roommate. And my parents of course, if they met. The rest of them, if they got questions they can ask the person who they have questions about. Otherwise fights happen and feelings get hurt.
Sure, it made things awkward and/or interesting sometimes when these 'groups' of people would run into each other. But it's better than labeling everyone and putting them all in neat little boxes based on their job, dress, hobby, sexual orientation, education, etc.
That may not be the best way to do with things, but that's how I do it. It works for me. YMMV.
If your friend did something wrong, let them know. If you don't want them doing that, draw the line for them clearly. If they don't get it, explain it to them. If they care, they will listen and do their best to work with you on it. If they are a good friend, you can work it out together.
If they look at you like you are nuts and think you're being ridiculous, they aren't friend material in my opinion. But then again, I'd be passing judgement on the friend you mentioned based on 188 words you wrote.
Life is fun :)
Well when I told one of my friends she told all of her friends and eventually one day we all went out for dinner and I just felt super awkward. We all talked and the conversation never got on the transgender topic but I know it was lingering in the air that they know and I couldn't tell if I was just that tag along person in the group or if they were accepting me as part of the group. All girls and me being the only male and them knowing I want to be a girl...... so confused. I mean yeah everyone will know at some point but I was really uncomfortable.
First rule of stealth, it all or nothing. You either tell no one at all or you tell everyone and deal with it.
My friends have been told it is NOT a secret, and thus, my friends and family are equipped with that knowledge.
It only takes one wrong person knowing and everyone knows.
I don't think the friend did any wrong, they are after all a friend. They were thinking of you at the time so freaking on them is wrong. Your friends are not psychic, and they can't every nuance of what is going on in your head, heck we often don't know ourselves.
Your only real choice is sit down with friend and clarify the knowledge is utterly not for transmission to anyone for any reason whatsoever. That way they won't have any problems.'
Now, if a friend was told that, and still does it, you have made a different mistake, you have used the word friend incorrectly.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 17, 2013, 08:22:58 AM
First rule of stealth, it all or nothing. You either tell no one at all or you tell everyone and deal with it.
Who made THIS rule? Did we get to vote on it or was it imposed on us?
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 17, 2013, 09:51:45 AM
Who made THIS rule? Did we get to vote on it or was it imposed on us?
I think it was Spiderman.
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 17, 2013, 09:51:45 AM
Who made THIS rule? Did we get to vote on it or was it imposed on us?
This is where I allow you to wake up and smell the coffee :)
Hey I used the word 'rule' you can use any term that floats your boat of course.
You will find, life rarely cares or even gives a damn for us when we ignore a wide range of truths.
But feel free to insist that there is a way of being 'partially out'.
I reserve the right to say I told you so.
Sounds like the best thing to do is let your friends know how you feel about them telling other people you're trans.
Personally, I preferred it when my friend would tell his friends I'm trans before I met them (at my request), since I am completely open about it and am honestly quite tired of explaining what it means to be trans. For me, it's less awkward if they know in advance, since I don't have to wonder when the right time is to bring it up (I don't always pass and I can't always tell when I'm not passing vs when I'm just being self-conscious about it) or whether they noticed, etc. There also seems to be fewer intrusive questions that way--people don't seem to be shy at all asking about my junk if I tell them myself that I'm trans, but if my friend tells them, they don't ask that sort of thing.
But things would be different if I was fully transitioned, I think.
No matter what your situation is, I think the best thing is to just make sure your friends are on the same page as you as far as your feelings about being trans and discussing it with others go. If they don't know you aren't comfortable with them bringing it up, then you can't really blame them for doing so--sounds like your friend only had good intentions.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 17, 2013, 10:55:19 AM
This is where I allow you to wake up and smell the coffee :)
Hey I used the word 'rule' you can use any term that floats your boat of course.
You will find, life rarely cares or even gives a damn for us when we ignore a wide range of truths.
But feel free to insist that there is a way of being 'partially out'.
I reserve the right to say I told you so.
Hmm. I feel put in my place.
Here are the facts of my life:
* True stealth is impossible. Everyone where I work has known me as a man for 12 years. I'm 52 years old. I'm not about to start a new life somewhere else. All my current friends and acquaintances have witnessed my transition.
* That being said, when I meet new people, I would like them to see me as a woman. How I got that way is none of their business. It's my truth to share with them when and how I see fit.
* Of course I can't and wouldn't try to control the buzz of gossip that will spread the circumstances of my past. That's human nature and there are many people who know how I used to present and are delighted to share what they know. I don't fool myself into thinking they owe me any discretion. However, I expect my close friends not to be in that category.
I'm not sure what "coffee" I should "wake up and smell". ???
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 17, 2013, 11:51:59 AM
Hmm. I feel put in my place.
Here are the facts of my life:
* True stealth is impossible. Everyone where I work has known me as a man for 12 years. I'm 52 years old. I'm not about to start a new life somewhere else. All my current friends and acquaintances have witnessed my transition.
* That being said, when I meet new people, I would like them to see me as a woman. How I got that way is none of their business. It's my truth to share with them when and how I see fit.
* Of course I can't and wouldn't try to control the buzz of gossip that will spread the circumstances of my past. That's human nature and there are many people who know how I used to present and are delighted to share what they know. I don't fool myself into thinking they owe me any discretion. However, I expect my close friends not to be in that category.
I'm not sure what "coffee" I should "wake up and smell". ???
Hi Suzi,
I am finding myself more and more often in the situation you described at the beginning of this thread ie. meeting friends of friends and not knowing what they know about my past. Since everyone is always very polite and since end of the day, I don't really care very much one way or another, I have no idea if they know I am trans or not. However, as I don't believe I am passable enough yet to handle close scrutiny over a long period of time , I suspect that no matter what they know or don't know about me beforehand, realistically they have got to pick up on something, at minimum my rather large hands :(
Having thought about that a bit and given the number of people who already know about my past anyway, on balance I now think that people knowing would probably make life easier for me. That way no one has to pretend anything and the interactions I have with new people would be that much more relaxed. Reading about the incident you described, I strongly suspect that your friend's intention was very much along these lines and I wouldn't be too hard on her about it, unless of course you really think you can already go completely stealth?
The only exception to this are my interactions with people in public places where I definitely prefer to be stealth but that seems to be working pretty OK.
Warm regards.
Donna
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 17, 2013, 11:51:59 AM
I'm not sure what "coffee" I should "wake up and smell". ???
Why, Folgers, of course! Preferebly caffeinated if the goal is to get someone to wake up ;D
Personally I kinda feel this is something that's probably different for everyone. Like many things we deal with. I don't feel there's a right or wrong or a stead fast rule.
I LIKE that Facebook couldn't preserve your privacy if it was life and death actually.
I made a point of blathering on ad naseum about myself on Facebook. I HOPE that Facebook has outed me to whole damned planet.
It gets damned tiring repeating ones self over and over and over and over to the just don't get it crowd.
Stealth, regardless of the reason, and there are many valid ones, is none the less, like preserving a lie, an illusion, a falsehood. And telling us it matters, that one's life might be at risk, simply does NOT alter the fact, that it is still as I said the same as preserving a lie, an illusion, and a falsehood.
It's a story you are constantly monitoring, a burden, a drag, a cross to bear, a hassle, a nuisance.
I'd rather get fired, and be bereft of phoney friends and false family and just be bloddy well done with it to be honest.
I'd rather be f*** homeless and free of the carefully crafted fascade all things considered.
But that's me.
If that is NOT you, that is your life, and you get to choose that path.
It's a road I never plan to walk myself though.
The only people unaware I am Lesley Roberta and female, also have no idea I even exist.
I don't have enough hours in the day to fret over unknown people that might have issues with me and the fact I am a transwoman.
I'll spit on their ignorance if and when it arrives eh.
Not going to lose sleep worrying over future spilled milk.
I know this much.
I have met a wealth of great people since I decided to be the real me.
I'd have never met them, if I had remained a hidden person, an unknown quantity.
Some of the people in my life today, have done more for me in a year, than some of the people that were in my life for decades, and have long since gone for one reason or another.
Sometimes, the people you lose, were never there to begin with.
Sometimes it is a good thing when people are forced to be the people they actually are.
Quote from: Taka on August 15, 2013, 04:04:16 PM
she was probably doing it for your sake, out of good will. it's just something that should be unnecessary to do, but not all people realize.
Quote from: Jillian on August 15, 2013, 05:20:37 PM
If she felt the need to "warn" someone, then it likely wasn't because she thought you would feel awkward, but because she would feel awkward.
Quote from: caleb. on August 15, 2013, 05:27:06 PM
I do think she meant well.
Quote from: Fitter Admin on August 16, 2013, 09:49:34 AM
I don't know your friend's intentions, but I think sometimes it's not even about the passing issue but the 'everyone should know' issue.
Quote from: Cynthia Michelle on August 16, 2013, 07:42:34 PM
There could be lots of reasons, you will never know for sure.
Quote from: Kaori on August 16, 2013, 11:59:46 PM
If your friend did something wrong, let them know.
Quote from: dreaming.forever on August 17, 2013, 11:09:00 AM
Sounds like the best thing to do is let your friends know how you feel about them telling other people you're trans.
We actually did have about a 20-minute conversation afterward about why it bothered me. She explained her motives, so I do have a good idea why she did it and she knows I wasn't happy.
My friend is a very bright, very analytical woman, and she was somewhat defensive. She gave the example that if she had two friends, a brash right-wing apologist and an equally bold left-wing advocate, she would definitely ask each one whether the presence of the other would bother them, so would reveal the other's political leanings to the other.
I asked whether she would do the same if one of those hypothetical friends were very private about their political beliefs. She said she wouldn't, but I still got the idea that my objections were tearing her in two - that she felt an obligation to her other friend not to place her in a situation (being with a transgender person) that might make her uncomfortable.
All your wonderful responses have helped clarified what bothered me about the whole thing. I'm uncomfortable on three levels:
1. Not happy to be outed by a close friend without my permission.
2. The involvement of my passability. An element of my friend's motivation involved the likelyhood that her friend would read me as trans.
3. That she would have considered excluding me because I'm trans if her friend told me a trans person would make her uncomfortable.
I think #3 is the worst. While it's a laudable goal to avoid discomfort on anyone's part, "those types make me uncomfortable" is simply not a basis for social exclusion among decent people. It hurts that my friend would have been willing to exclude me on that basis.
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 18, 2013, 08:09:46 AM
3. That she would have considered excluding me because I'm trans if her friend told me a trans person would make her uncomfortable.
I think #3 is the worst. While it's a laudable goal to avoid discomfort on anyone's part, "those types make me uncomfortable" is simply not a basis for social exclusion among decent people. It hurts that my friend would have been willing to exclude me on that basis.
This is a tough situation. It would be great if all of your friends' friends were okay with trans people but I wouldn't blame the friend for being friends with them despite this. Its kind of like having a friend that has a friend that might have a problem with my race. Sure its not okay to be racist and I wouldn't want any friends that were racist, but I wouldn't fault my friends for wanting to be friends with someone who is racist, I would just tell them if they want to hang out with me it should not involve that person as well. As for her not knowing if her friend would be okay with it, I don't think its right to out you to find out. It would be uncomfortable to allow the meeting to be the way to find out, but that is up to you to let your friend know that they shouldn't blame themselves if it happens to be true and that you are okay with taking that chance and tell her what you will do if the situation does come up. If you are okay with taking the chance and she is not, that's up to you to decide if you want to be outed by her anytime you hang out with a third person or to not ever let a situation like that to happen either by not being their friend anymore or only hanging out with them alone.
The trick with friends, is they insist on being who they actually are.
Dang, that sounds so unfair eh.
Now read that a few times till you get it eh.
If you like person B and you like person C and you know person B will not like person C, you suck it up and accept they likely will not want to be together with each other even if they both like person A that being you.
I deal with this all the time. You simply don't get to be all in the same room at the same time. And thus, having an event, and asking both to come, is only to cause you trouble.
Sooo if you plan to keep on with the stealth, you better start inventing a decent cover story, or this WILL happen again eh.
Or do you plan to muzzle all of your friends?
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 17, 2013, 08:22:58 AM
First rule of stealth, it all or nothing. You either tell no one at all or you tell everyone and deal with it.
Well not everybody here is stealth. Why do people assume this here? I am not stealth, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell everyone. And to protect people who do chose to go stealth it's probably important that people know it is not considered okay to "out someone". The person gets to "out" themselves. But tbh, not everyone really understands this. It is kind of a cisprivilege thing that people don't really take time to think about this.
Good for asking he what was going on. I don't actually talk to this person too much. I am very sure when I do that she will not understand why it bothered me and will have her reasons which will seem legitimate to her.
--Jay