When I came out to my ex-roommate, long ago, she told me she understood, because her cousin was the same way, and most of all because she also felt like she would be better off as a guy. But in any practical terms, she wasn't really trans at all. She was in every aspect comfortable with her life as a girl, and I seriously don't think she would have ever felt the will to go to a doctor in hopes of transitioning.
This got me thinking. When you're a "real" transsexual, well, you yearn to be the other gender enough, and you're uncomfortable with your birth gender enough (or a complex combination of that stuff) to makes steps towards changing your gender, and often you'll believe that those steps are necessary for you to ever be happy.
But there are people who indeed are trans, but their life's circumstances make them decide against transitioning, because other factors makes thing better, or at least tolerable, the way they are now, too. But they aren't any less trans for that reason.
Now I'm wondering about this: how many people are there who, a bit like my ex-roommate, if they were given the choice of their gender, before being born, wouldn't choose what they ended up with, but who would never think of transitioning at all?
This doesn't really have any implications, and it's not really important, but I'm curious about this, and what everyone thinks about it.
I don't know. Wondering if you'd have been better off as the other gender isn't necessarily something that makes someone trans, IMO. That to me just sounds like a cisgender person complaining about traditional gender roles... which a LOT of them do.
I do think that there are plenty of people under the trans spectrum who aren't quite as dysphoric, (I'll freely admit that my dysphoria is nowhere near as bad as some people on here,) but there is a fine line between someone being trans and someone who's pretty much happy with their body just not feeling like they quite fit into their gendered niche of society.
Throughout the years, I've always wondered why I never wished to be "normal" like how I've wished to be female. To this day before I go to bed, I still pray and wish to be female. (Hopeless romantic I guess believing in that sort of stuff) But the thing is I always come up with an answer that surprising me to this day.
I honestly feel, if I give up "wanting to be female" then I am also giving up a part of myself. As if I am betraying myself.
So if I had the choice I still pick female. Even if it meant me being in a guys body again.
Even though feeling this way saddens me, and has caused me a lot of stress. I want to be me in the end, sure I've fantasized about being someone else but eh... Ok I think I am rambling again.
Yeah. I'm pretty much happy with my body.
Hmm.
Assuming I'd have ended up the same mix inside, I wouldn't mind having the opposite body. Honestly, I think it's a little easier in our society to be a non-conforming FAAB. The feminist movement is, for its many faults, more coherent than anything men have*. Misogyny sucks though.
I think trans* is such a fascinating umbrella because it encompasses such a huge variety of people.
On one extreme you have Eva Example (let's call her). Her whole life, everyone who loves her has told her she needs to be Brett, but one day they'll all have to admit they're right, right? But then she's in her early teens and her body starts saying, "Hey, guess what, Brett? They were right." I'd say she cares a whole awful lot about being the right sex and gender and everything.
But on the other extreme you have TJ (let's call em). And ey's finally arrived, after some searching and awkwardness at a comfortable place in eir life - you could say that ey and eir genderqueer friends are, at the great summer camp called life, the ones who can't resist the temptation to panty-raid the gender binary every Friday night. Asked about how much gender matters to em, TJ will almost certainly answer, "We're on a bridge, Charlie!"
(If that made any sense, I'm sorry. I'll try harder next time.)
For some of us this really is a matter of life and death. For some of us, we're throwing a party.
And there are people for whom conforming is convenient. It's not a big deal and they can't understand why we'd make it. They're not gender-loyalists, they might even admit that there isn't any reason why it should be weird to see a man in a skirt.
And there are people out there who are too scared, for whom the journey isn't worth risking the abuse.
If you were expecting a conclusion, I don't have one.
"Charrrrlieeeee~~~ It's a magical liopleurodon. Show us the way."
I might have misworded that. I neither mean real trans people, neither do I mean people just complaining about whatever is expected of them. I'm talking about people who, honestly, think they should have been the other gender. But they also honestly don't care enough about that for it to be a problem whatsoever. I just know there are many of these. I've known very few people in my lifetime compared to your average person, yet I can count 4 of them.
To oversimplify this, let's say being trans is a gene. Well they have the trans gene. But they also got the trans resistance gene, which allows them to be trans without incurring any problems.
Does this make any sense? I mean, there are various levels of dysphoria and trans people, from those who will assuredly go crazy about a thousand things in the near future without transition to those who actually could actually have lived rather well without transition but transitioned because 1.1 is greater than 1 unit of happiness. It's not such a big stretch to imagine that there might be people whose brain is indeed of the wrong gender, but those people could very well live with it, no?
(This is the second such theoretical discussion thread I've made, and the second time it's misunderstood/fails. I think I suck at this.)
There is no such thing as a "real" transexual. The word transexual is made by humans to describe a certain few humans. Definitions change.
I see myself as that, if I could choose to be born a female, I would. But being born a guy never bothered me much. Yet I still want to transition, and am transitioning, because it's how I feel I should be, how I feel I should look.
You want to get into theoretical stuff. The definitions of each word are unique to the person using the word. The way we see and describe a word is characterized by our experiences and thoughts on certain subjects/ items, etc. For every word there are 7 billion definitions. When you say transexual, the definition of transexual for you is also molded by your theoretical thoughts about what constitutes "mild trans people" as well as what a real trans person is, or a cis person.
I would be considered a "mild trans person" by your definition but I know i'm also a "real" trans person as well. :)
A, you did misword it.
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
Thread locked.
This topic is being re-opened with a reminder to choose our words carefully.
Quote from: A on August 22, 2013, 10:36:39 PM
This got me thinking. When you're a "real" transsexual, well, you yearn to be the other gender enough, and you're uncomfortable with your birth gender enough (or a complex combination of that stuff) to makes steps towards changing your gender, and often you'll believe that those steps are necessary for you to ever be happy.
There is no clear boundary. Even those conditions change even for the same person. If you want to group people based on the definition of a noun, you may first study the millenary history of philosophical debate between realism and nominalism. There are many internet resources regarding this issue. For example, http://philosophy.about.com/od/Philosophical-Theories-Ideas/a/Nominalism-And-Realism.htm .
barbie~~
I think theres a diffrence between the feel like a guy/girl or having transgender fellings.
Many people partly feel abit like they belong to boy or girls in ways who isnt nessesarry gender connected. usunally you can hear/read people decribe themself ex like. "I love computergames and like one of the guys" still very confortable being female.
I think the diffrence may be if it more genderole based or if your having a inner felling.
when I first came out I where still a kid, I said I wish I where a guy, my friend said he wished he was a girl, my reason where because I was said I could not say "im a boy" in english and had to say "im a girl" his reason was because girls got spoiled by the teacher.
So the general consensus is that either you're actually trans, either you're not and are just making comments that aren't deeply thought out. It makes sense in a way. I mean, before he came out as gay, one of my classmates to whom I'd told I felt like I should be a girl told me he felt the same, but it's pretty likely that was just a thoughtless comment because it's "easier" for girls to be into guys.
Regardless, I still have that feeling that the possibility exists. I don't know, for some reason it just makes sense to me that a lot more people than we think would chemically, mentally and socially live happier as the opposite gender, are "made for it", but that a lot of them are actually adaptable enough to be able to live as their birth gender just fine and never really worry about it.
It's going pretty far without any sort of evidence, but in some way it just makes sense that way, that there are two factors: whether your brain matches your body, and whether you're able to deal with it*. In a way, it might also explain the apparently numerous children who express genuine cross-gender feelings that just fade away when puberty approaches.
*Being able to deal with it here is meant as the body/brain being able to deal themselves with the gender misfit, without occasioning much of the "symptoms" that being trans brings. In no way does it refer to actual trans people and their choice to transition or not.
I'd identify as "mild" (though not mild-mannered ;) and I think we attract our own difficulties. It was pretty easy to be convinced I'm not trans by my parents... 20 years later I'm on my way toward transition and drastically altering the family I love and shouldn't have had.
On the other hand I'm an introverted optimist and am really super happy with coming out... so much that I itch to tell people before I'm ready. Personality changes occur even before HRT I think!
Quote from: A on August 23, 2013, 12:36:13 AM
I might have misworded that. I neither mean real trans people, neither do I mean people just complaining about whatever is expected of them. I'm talking about people who, honestly, think they should have been the other gender. But they also honestly don't care enough about that for it to be a problem whatsoever. I just know there are many of these. I've known very few people in my lifetime compared to your average person, yet I can count 4 of them.
I sometimes don't feel like I am trans at all after seeing how some people on here feel and define what trans is. Given the choice before birth, I would've been male without a doubt. If I was a wee bit younger and knew more about the possibilities of transitioning, I definitely would've done it. Now though, I have my doubts on whether transitioning (at least fully) is right for me. Things have come up in life that would make it difficult (not like its ever easy), and I've kind of come to find ways to accept it and even embrace being born female.
It's not really that big of a deal to me a quite a bit of the time. In my head, I do often just see myself as a guy doing things, and sometimes I kind of forget what I look like and then it seems weird when I see myself in a mirror. But this doesn't really make me want to jump out and get on T and get surgeries, change my name, etc.
There's no such thing as not trans enough, but perhaps some people won't take the term trans onto themselves, but kind of fit nevertheless. The guy who runs New Beginnings (very out so there's no problem here) which is a recovery place for trans guys who are recovering from top surgery with Dr. Garramone had top surgery at age 55 or so. He is just done transitioning. He felt it was a lot to do at his age. He prefers male pronouns and uses a male name, but he didn't want hormones. I think its' all under the whole thing of being trans. I think there are quite a number of people who for what ever reason do not want to, are unable, unwilling, or whatever of living their lives in *any* way the gender they are really. They might not ID as trans but I think in the broad scheme of things they are. I don't think I use the term on them directly as they wouldn't want it, but the trans umbrella is rather large and covers a lot of different experiences that encompass ways of being in the world that are not cis.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on August 24, 2013, 05:21:39 PM
There's no such thing as not trans enough, but perhaps some people won't take the term trans onto themselves, but kind of fit nevertheless. The guy who runs New Beginnings (very out so there's no problem here) which is a recovery place for trans guys who are recovering from top surgery with Dr. Garramone had top surgery at age 55 or so. He is just done transitioning. He felt it was a lot to do at his age. He prefers male pronouns and uses a male name, but he didn't want hormones. I think its' all under the whole thing of being trans. I think there are quite a number of people who for what ever reason do not want to, are unable, unwilling, or whatever of living their lives in *any* way the gender they are really. They might not ID as trans but I think in the broad scheme of things they are. I don't think I use the term on them directly as they wouldn't want it, but the trans umbrella is rather large and covers a lot of different experiences that encompass ways of being in the world that are not cis.
--Jay
My appreciative amen to what Jay has so articulately put forth, he was reading my mind!
I can't really see myself as living as "another gender". At the end of the day, I don't really know what that means... the only gender I can really conceive of is my own, which is N/A. I do, in a vague sense, wish that I could have been born in my ideal, queer, N/A body, but that's the stuff of science fiction. It feels gross and embarrassing to even say that, but it's the truth.
Living with the body that I have and being read the way I am is like being born with a mild disability and just learning to make the most of it.
Quote from: A on August 23, 2013, 12:36:13 AM
To oversimplify this, let's say being trans is a gene. Well they have the trans gene. But they also got the trans resistance gene, which allows them to be trans without incurring any problems.
Does this make any sense? I mean, there are various levels of dysphoria and trans people, from those who will assuredly go crazy about a thousand things in the near future without transition to those who actually could actually have lived rather well without transition but transitioned because 1.1 is greater than 1 unit of happiness. It's not such a big stretch to imagine that there might be people whose brain is indeed of the wrong gender, but those people could very well live with it, no?
(This is the second such theoretical discussion thread I've made, and the second time it's misunderstood/fails. I think I suck at this.)
To me personally this makes a lot of sense.
I was born with a genetic condition called Neurofibromatosis type 1, or NF1 that I inherited from my mom. The hallmark of this condition is that Neurofibromas (tumors) can grow alon any nerve in the body. For me this meant a large tumor grow behind my right eye, leaving me deformed since before birth. More tumors have shown up as I grew up. When I first started trying to figure things out and reading people's accounts of being trans* I noticed that many thought of it as a birth defect, so naturally I compared the two. The similarities are remarkable.
Both conditions vary widely between how they present from person to person. If you didn't know that my mom and I had the same condition. My mother is covered with 100's of tumors that are easily visible and vary in size from a pimple to a peach pit size. For me the right side of my face is deformed (in part from one large tumor), and I have maybe about 75 and most are only visible under ther right lighting conditions with the biggest being about pea sized. There are some who have very large tumors covering their entire face, or limbs and others who live in constant debilitating pain. In addition to tumors and the problems they cause, there are also patches of darker skin pigmentation, cognitive issues and bone deformities.
Bolth conditions vary as to when symptoms become appearent. For many this goes unnoticed well into adulthood like my mother and both conditions tend to progressively get worse with time and will require management (for lack of a better term) whenever quality of life is impacted.
Additionally people without the NF gene can still grow neurofibromas, but it usually isn't of concern unless several start to appear.
With that said, yes it makes a lot of sense that whatever the mechanism for ->-bleeped-<- could affect the person in varying ways and varying degrees. This doesn't mean that someone is "more" or "less" trans*, it only means that their specific set of symptoms need to be managed accordingly.
Quote from: ErinM on August 24, 2013, 09:48:29 PM
With that said, yes it makes a lot of sense that whatever the mechanism for ->-bleeped-<- could affect the person in varying ways and varying degrees. This doesn't mean that someone is "more" or "less" trans*, it only means that their specific set of symptoms need to be managed accordingly.
Erin,
Thank you for sharing what must be a difficult situation for you. I respect your efforts at transparency in sharing your own condition as analogous to how each individual's specific set of symptoms need to be managed accordingly and I might add sometimes differently from those of others. Bless your sweet heart sis! xox ~Shan~
I prefer my trans people to be spicy rather than mild. :D ;)
It seems there are people like this. Since my mindset is fairly different, I can't really understand how this could be a non issue for some. However, dysphoria differs from person to person.
comparing it to a birth defect seems quite appropriate.
the way i see it, there are girls, and boys, and a few other genders. none are trans, some just have a differently shaped body. i can see quite a lot of reasons why a girl would choose to grow up to become a man, or a boy would choose to grow up to become a woman. it might have to do with gender roles, convenience, getting to do what you want to do. even those who are born with a body that is congruent with their gender might choose to live as the opposite gender, so i don't see any difficulties with a person who has a body congruent with the opposite gender choosing to live as the opposite gender.
if i think logically about my own position, it's better for me to be female. that would make it easier for me to get what i want. i have a female body, and i don't feel a very strong need to change my gender. i could count myself lucky, in a way, that i've been born with a body that gives me some useful advantages. i'm still not a girl though, and i never really was. can't say i'm much of a guy either, so fully transitioning out of my advantageous position seems a little unnecessary.
i think for people with milder symptoms, it might be a matter of their situation. right now, it's better for me to be a woman. it's unpleasant to be addressed as one, but i can deal with it. if my situation changes to one where this gender doesn't hold any advantages, and still i feel like correcting this slight birth defect a little, i might suddenly start pursuing medical treatment much more aggressively.
Quote from: LearnedHand on August 23, 2013, 06:46:39 PM
It's not really that big of a deal to me a quite a bit of the time. In my head, I do often just see myself as a guy doing things, and sometimes I kind of forget what I look like and then it seems weird when I see myself in a mirror. But this doesn't really make me want to jump out and get on T and get surgeries, change my name, etc.
i seem to have the same type of experience quite often. i do want to change my name and try some hormones, but not enough to make a big deal about it. at least not right now.
Since I survived until I was in my early fifties before finally deciding to transition, by many standards I could have been considered as a "mild trans" person. That being said, it was only after I allowed myself to to move forward with my transition that even I came to fully understand how much this meant to me. There's a French expression "le faim vient en mangeant" = "hunger comes with eating" that very accurately describes the mental process I have gone through.
I feel so good at finally being able to live as a woman that it almost seems like a fairy tale or a really pleasant dream. Every time I see a female face looking back at me in the mirror and hear myself being called "Madame" is a moment of real joy. The novelty of this will certainly wear off but, for me at least, it kills any idea off the idea that I was ever a "mild trans" person. A very repressed trans person is probably a far more accurate discription of where I was.
If any further confirmation was necessary, in the testimonial letters I have received from family and friends in support of my civil identity change, almost everyone insists on how easily I have moved into my female persona....
My 2 c's to the subject!
Donna
Quote from: Donna Elvira on August 25, 2013, 04:31:03 PM
Since I survived until I was in my early fifties before finally deciding to transition, by many standards I could have been considered as a "mild trans" person. That being said, it was only after I allowed myself to to move forward with my transition that even I came to fully understand how much this meant to me. There's a French expression "le faim vient en mangeant" = "hunger comes with eating" that very accurately describes the mental process I have gone through.
I feel so good at finally being able to live as a woman that it almost seems like a fairy tale or a really pleasant dream. Every time I see a female face looking back at me in the mirror and hear myself being called "Madame" is a moment of real joy. The novelty of this will certainly wear off but, for me at least, it kills any idea off the idea that I was ever a "mild trans" person. A very repressed trans person is probably a far more accurate discription of where I was.
If any further confirmation was necessary, in the testimonial letters I have received from family and friends in support of my civil identity change, almost everyone insists on how easily I have moved into my female persona....
My 2 c's to the subject!
Donna
I think that's the real difficulty of the situation. Me, for example. I've been out to myself for 3 weeks tomorrow. How can I know I was mild when I was repressed. Thinking on it rationally, and thinking of my history, I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle - but how can one tell without experience? I can't say (i.e. to my wife) that just dressing up will be the cure when I haven't dressed up. The same goes for hormones and surgery.
I know what the cure is... I need to find out if it is worse than the situation. (I'll not say "disease" nor "problem" there ;) )
Quote from: kabit on August 25, 2013, 06:53:35 PM
I think that's the real difficulty of the situation. Me, for example. I've been out to myself for 3 weeks tomorrow. How can I know I was mild when I was repressed. Thinking on it rationally, and thinking of my history, I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle - but how can one tell without experience? I can't say (i.e. to my wife) that just dressing up will be the cure when I haven't dressed up. The same goes for hormones and surgery.
I know what the cure is... I need to find out if it is worse than the situation. (I'll not say "disease" nor "problem" there ;) )
Hi Kabit,
I already saw some of your other posts too. You may find some ideas on where to take it from where you are now in this post: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,147525.msg1212901.html#msg1212901
Wishing you the very, very best of luck.
Donna
Quote from: Joules on August 26, 2013, 01:15:12 PM
I find this thread offensive.
If you understood the intent of what the OP was attempting to convey then it wouldn't be offensive. It's probably best to avoid any thread that you find offensive rather than even making the comment which is sure to hurt someone's feelings.
:police: I found this thread potentially offensive, too, and have already posted a Rule #10 warning in it. Please express yourself carefully, we are dancing on the edge of the rules here. Hugs, Devlyn
Being "Mildly Trans" as I am, I packed my feminized androgynous body into totally male attire consisting of T-shirt, jeans, tennies, hooded sweatshirt and baseball cap, and traipsed on off to an early morning VA appointment at the eye clinic. Once inside the building I stopped at the coffee kiosk and was immediately ma'am'ed by the woman that runs it, not once but twice. She doesn't know that I'm TG but to me that was my idea of a mildly trans morning as someone perfectly content in an androgynous lifestyle. ;D :icon_ballbounce: I probably should have taken her with me to the eye clinic! :D :laugh:
Mx. Lonely,
Don't waste any of life's energy worrying about how others perceive you here or anywhere else for that matter. Everyone has their own slot to fit in on the broad gender spectrum. After all do the fingers on your hand tell the thumb that they are less of a finger because of thus and so? Just be who you are and relax, you don't have to fit into any particular box to be you!
I just ran across this thread and had to laugh a bit at the "mild trans" realization. I've been slapping Susan's readers up the side of the head for years trying to communicate that gender identity is very much something that occurs in varying degrees rather than being an either/or proposition. While there are many people who have a need to completely identify themselves as a different gender than their birth, there are others (probably more others) who possess this need to varying lessor degrees. They (we) are not fakes or unfulfilled TSs-- we are just people with genetics of one gender who identify-- to some degree-- with the "other". To what degree we do this is up to each of us to decide.
I, personally, don't really even consider myself androgynous (though some might). I think the common idea of androgyny (displaying traits of both genders) is just one of many ways to be. I can safely say after years among such folks, I don't fit in with the so-called male "crossdresser" crowd, either. That's an interesting scene, but it's not mine. What I am does not have an easily identified name yet, but that's OK with me.
~ Lyric ~
Quote from: Mx. Lonely on August 27, 2013, 02:04:33 PM
My worry is less how others perceive me and more how others react to me. If my neighbor thinks I'm a gay man in a dress and heels, I honestly don't care. If he makes it uncomfortable, or even scary to live beside him, then I start to care because action, or inaction, starts to have consequences. Same goes for the forums here, I don't care who thinks I'm "trans enough" or "woman enough" to have the F marker, but if I am made to feel uncomfortable or that I am less woman because of X,Y or Z, I am having to weigh the options of fighting against the stereotypes for me and other women like me so that maybe one day we can be comfortable identifying as women at least on a support site or to just let it slide and not let it bother me because there are always going to be people like that even on this website. I opted for the second option and took off the F marker just to make it easier, I just felt that I should express why I did it so that just MAYBE some of those people will read this and even just TRY to be more accepting of women of all types. I have serious doubts about that but at least I gave it a shot.
sounds like you belong with that idgaf crowd. very close to me as a woman, i never care about how people perceive me or doing all that hard work that some women do just to... i'm not even sure why they're doing it. applying makeup every day, making sure to shave all those places regularly, looking pretty for some guys who'd rather see them with less makeup because seriously. it tastes horrible and gets in the way and hides a woman's charm. interestingly guys do want them to shave though, so... i should probably put in a little more work if i'm to be a part-time woman.
just joking. only time i'll care to shave my legs is if i go to a public bath. just to not freak out all the others. too lazy for anything else.
and now, just because all this talk of being a woman, please don't anyone tell me that i can't be a man as well. i'd be a little saddened if you did that. not that i make too much out of that either.
Quote from: A on August 22, 2013, 10:36:39 PM
Now I'm wondering about this: how many people are there who, a bit like my ex-roommate, if they were given the choice of their gender, before being born, wouldn't choose what they ended up with, but who would never think of transitioning at all?
i think i forgot to answer this initial question.
there were times when i thought it would be better if i were born as the opposite sex. and then times i was glad i was born as my birth sex. after a few years of contemplating all my experiences related to being me, i've come to the conclusion that i would not be me if i were not born just the way i was. one thing is my birth sex, which i wish i could change, though not before my birth. another thing is this interesting mix inside, not really knowing what i am, but being very sure that my birth sex doesn't reveal even half the truth about my gender.
three years of being out to myself have only gotten me farther away from transition. i started out thinking i really needed it, then everything calmed down after a while, and now i'm just thinking that i want it. it might help with some issues, so it's worth trying. but it's not like i'm planning t rush into it as fast as at all possible. i'll wait to see for a while, when it seems good to start, or if i can get any doctor to work with.
the more i come to terms with being myself, the less important transition seems to be. i do believe i'll end up there, but i can't say if it will be in two or twenty years.
Quote from: Mx. Lonely on August 27, 2013, 06:22:47 PM
I'm probably being over sensitive here. I'm sorry.
Yeah, try to relax and take a big breath. You and I along with many others are on the same page in the spectrum, it's ok if not everyone else agrees with us, after all what would the world be like if we were all cast from an identical mold?
Quote from: Mx. Lonely on August 27, 2013, 06:22:47 PM
I'm probably being over sensitive here. I'm sorry.
Sorry. (What am
I apologizing for; I haven't done anything, right? That's the problem.)
Obviously
something isn't working for you and I feel like I could help if I understood, but I'm, like, a few episodes behind in your story if that makes sense.
I'd like to offer kind words, because I have no insightful ones right now. But I'm working on it.
If you don't understand and you think you're hurting people, maybe it's time to just listen. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Glitterfly on August 27, 2013, 06:36:27 PM
men can be emotional and considerate too~
I have been punished for it, like
actually penalized
specifically for expressing my emotions, by more than one person, all of whom did so because they thought they were helping me develop
as a man.
Yes, I agree with your words. But please understand there is actually some female privilege involved here, and that "can" comes with "except"s as well.
(I'm not in a position to disagree with your other points at the moment. I don't agree with all of them - not saying this to discount where you're coming from, just please don't take my silence as confirmation.)
"Trans Enough" or
Why Hurt Feelings are Par for the Course Here
Trans enough for what?
Do you have to be X amount trans to grow your hair out, or cut it short? To wear makeup (the "wrong" way)? To modify your voice, bind, tuck, wear breast forms, or dress a certain way?
I think we all know the right answer, and it's "no, you don't have to be trans enough." That's what we'd each say to each other.
But not to ourselves. And that's the key problem that everyone here faces.
"Maybe this is just a phase. Maybe they're all right. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe, maybe, maybe." You'd never say it to someone else, but you do say it to yourself.
And, if you're "mild trans" in some way and you meet someone who isn't, who you think is more trans than you are, those doubts come back.
I think everyone needs to be aware of this effect. It's okay, it's normal, but yeah it hurts.
Glitter, you're being awesome trying to get it. Thanks. And, Lonely, I can see you're putting up with a lot of doubt, which is awesome too.
I'm going to try to say something substantial in a bit, but I had to put this out first.
Phew. I... have never seen a thread get so many updates in just one day of not reading it. Useless comment, but my stupefaction refused to stay put and be silent.
Quote from: Taka on August 27, 2013, 03:46:17 PM
only time i'll care to shave my legs is if i go to a public bath.
Some more unrelated, useless stuff, but... Taka, where do you live? I've never seen or fathomed the idea of a public bath outside anime, and I thought they were something unique to Japan. I'm really curious to know in what other countries they exist. If you don't mind, of course.
Mx. Lonely: I must congratulate you for your courage. Many, many people, if they felt like you, would barely be able to stand being trans and wouldn't truly live as themselves and rather put themselves in an easier, more common, bucket. Then again if they judge that the social consequences are worse than the consequences of not truly living as themselves, that's fine too, but I'm still impressed by someone like you who's going all out with their convictions and feelings.
Also, I must congratulate you for your attitude towards Glitterfly. It's a rare thing on this forum to have someone actually recognize someone who is trying to understand or help without ill intent. Heck, I've seen worse, on me and others, for much less. As soon as I saw her post, I was getting ready for the huge overreaction that would follow, and I was pleasantly surprised. Even though deep down I'm worried about how sensitive people can be, right now I prefer to rejoice on a good display of wisdom.
A gender therapist would probably be very helpful to you. We only know what we've lived and read about, and that doesn't fly very far, especially when it comes to cases that are rather far from our understanding and experience or simply less common. Someone who deeply understands gender and has seen a lot of varied cases, however, could be particularly well-suited in helping you understand things and make transition (and/or non-transition) decisions.
It would probably bring you relief, too, to feel understood and helped.
Glitterfly: Your exchange has been much more on-topic than a lot of the messages before you. Honestly it's good that the topic is deriving on a different but related and interesting course, because the original intent of the thread was vastly misunderstood to the point that I stopped hoping for any fruitful discussion to come of it, so. 謝らないで (No, I have nothing but the most basic of knowledge of Japanese and do not know a single kanji. Courtesy of the copy-paste function, whee.)
Since we're deep into off-topic, funny how specific that manner of using smileys and tildes is to Japanese and other Asian people of the same region. I wonder why. I find it funny because before even reading your comment on public baths, I was almost sure you were from Japan or Hong Kong or something like that.
(Or I'm currently ridiculizing myself and you're just someone who likes that Japan-ish kind of writing.)
those smileys are really common on the internets nowadays. i have this cat i often talk to who uses them all the time. i don't use any emots ever, so you won't see those from me either.
Quote from: Glitterfly on August 27, 2013, 11:00:17 PM
No problem ^^ I still feel like this isn't exactly my thread as I'm not even a little bit fluid/"mild"~ It was interesting to learn about this~! if I see something relevant here later I might come back (to read at least) but I wish to leave you to your thread so your discussion may be with people who feel the same way, that would seem to be more relevant ne? ^^ Thank you for teaching me something new~
it's nice to see some fairly extreme binaries (meaning clearly place at one of the ends of the scale that i don't really believe in) join this discussion. some times i think we don't talk enough about it. just one wrong wording can set everything on fire, but trying to stay to the topic intended rather than reading too much hate into a badly formulated post can take us a long way. one of the problems with this kind of discussion is that we aren't talking about something commonly agreed upon, the non-binary isn't nicely predefined in any way, and we're still trying to figure out what it really is we are.
i take "mild" in the topic to mean more like mild symptoms or milder treatment, than more or less trans. trans, or a gender, is something you either are or are not, there's no point measuring that. but the symptoms, and how to treat them should be discussed much more.
Quote from: A on August 27, 2013, 10:15:11 PM
Some more unrelated, useless stuff, but... Taka, where do you live? I've never seen or fathomed the idea of a public bath outside anime, and I thought they were something unique to Japan. I'm really curious to know in what other countries they exist. If you don't mind, of course.
maybe i used the wrong word. i meant swimming pools, the beach, anywhere people will see me in very revealing feminine attire, and i don't want to show off how unfeminine i really am.
and here are my angry answers. i let myself provoke a little, i only want to post them to see if we actually disagree so much as i initially thought. i started doubting the disagreement after one more page...
Quote from: Glitterfly on August 27, 2013, 05:55:50 PM
"sounds like you belong with that idgaf crowd" but what difference does gender make to a person who doesn't care?
i was thinking about those women who seriously don't care about doing all that hard work which other women do to live up so some kind of ideal which i seriously don't understand. because as a woman, i don't really care to be all that nice and smooth for nobody to see. i don't care about wearing the right stuff, plucking my eyebrows all the time, applying mascara every morning etc. anyone who says it's hard work to be a woman should take a step back and think about what else they can do than just be a woman, in order to be a woman.
Quote from: Glitterfly on August 27, 2013, 05:55:50 PM
Can anyone explain to me why it matters to them what gender they are if it absolutely doesn't matter to them how they look and how they are perceived? also if transitioning or paying attention to your looks (which everyone should do regardless of their gender) is something that can be overridden by simple laziness then how significant can it be to that person? it seems really counterintuitive... all of it.
gender is something which is generally taken for granted, so to say. a woman is a woman, a man is a man. when talking to cissexualists, they'll even tell you that it doesn't matter how much you change your appearance, you're still what you're "born as". they only think of the body's sex. when i talk about gender, i think about the person's internal gender. but i'm still of the meaning that a woman is a woman, whether she has a male or female body, wants to change or decides not to, likes seeing her face in the mirror or not. there are cis women who decide not to change their non-feminine looks with medical treatment or surgery. trans women should have that same right, whether it's due to laziness, convenience, fears, or other reasons.
Quote from: Glitterfly on August 28, 2013, 05:31:29 AM
I can appreciate it being harder for some because of this stuff coming less naturally them and any disadvantages they might have like a more masculine facial structure and I feel very sympathetic to anyone who doesn't have the advantages I or someone else might have but when the person says it's a choice all around, that they could do something about it but they just don't want to then I think 'okay, this woman chooses not to do anything to present as a female, whether she's cis or trans doesn't matter if she wasn't lucky enough to look female enough without any effort at all... the world is going to see her as a male. what is she expecting?'
OK, so based on this, it would be acceptable for me to refer to many of my lesbian friends as men? They wear mens/andro clothes, have short and often untidy hair, they don't shave much of anything and certainly don't use makeup. Some are also lacking the 'accepted' curves..
Of course it's not OK.. Nor does it happen that I've ever seen or heard. And quite frankly, the stereotype you seem to want to project is kinda insulting..
I'm a woman.. I frequently wear jeans and a tshirt.. I rarely wear makeup - only for a rare occasion.. I do from time to time shave my legs and pits, but not so much in winter.. Oh, and how do I know I'm a woman? The way other people interact with me is one sign. The complete lack of straight exGF's is a somewhat amusing sign. But it's mostly because that's what my heart and soul tells me I am - as it always has.
Oh, and just for giggles, I have days where IDGAF and I've been out and about with stubble.. Still get called ma'am - even when I'm wearing an old pair of guys jeans and a fairly andro tshirt..
well, many, way too many, girls actually believe that there is something "special" they have to do in order to qualify as... a girl? it's an extremely binary thing that i don't really understand the workings of, i have only observed it. when so many cis girls feel like they have to do all this hard work to be a girl, i don't find it too weird that many trans girls feel that same need.
but still, having gotten to the level of underlying thoughts is a good progression in this conversation. it's so easy to just spout all the conclusions as if they were facts, knowing the reasoning behind always helps when trying to learn about something, or getting to know someone else.
glitterfly, i have to think a little more about how to express my thoughts before writing my full reply to your post. at least i now think i know what you find problematic, now it's just up to me to find a way to explain what i'm thinking...
I do not care whatever people call me. I just pursue beauty, and think women's fashion items are more sexy, pretty or erotic than men's. I prefer an androgynous body and face to feminine one, whether it is mine or hers.
Having sex as a women is just my fantasy; whereas seeking feminine beauty is my daily duty.
Barbie~~
Militantly binary trans folk are invariably more fragile and dependent on the perception of others for their own validation as opposed to non-binary types who are much less concerned about how other's perceive them and more interested in simply being who they are to themselves, often enjoying anything from a flamboyant presentation one day to a blah one the next. It's got nothing to do with being lazy and everything to do with being rather well grounded and content in their own skin. The idea of having to meet anyone else's expectations and fit into someone else's mental box is irritating, but then one has to always consider the source and be patient with binary perceptions keeping in mind that they are emotionally much more susceptible to a disdainful look or off color remark from others than are non-binarys who usually just blow it off.
That may be true in general, but I'm definitely binary and only want to be me. I don't worry a whole lot about having perfect physique or most manly face.
I don't have fancy suits, though I do prefer dressier clothes. Work is t shirt and jeans. (T shirt uniform)
Going back to the original post (and ignoring the wording lol), it reminds me of discussions I've heard about genderless/agender people and how, in theory, we don't seem to differ from cis people at all. In that many of us don't care enough about our gender to want to change anything. (Which is only true for a few of us, in reality.)
I think one of the more striking differences between genderless and cis people is actually in that lots of us don't care what pronouns we get, whereas... a cis person would probably be up in arms if someone misgendered them that way.
So agender people would probably tend to fall into your category of "mild" trans people.
I would consider myself "mild", even with the desire for surgery someday, because being acknowledged by society at large is a battle I don't have the energy to fight, and I would rather just sit back and be seen as one or the other for the rest of my days. My husband knows exactly how I feel and that's all that matters right now. No such thing as passing, let alone being stealth, as a nonbinary! I also have no interest in taking hormones (beyond the pill, which has side effects that I like), or making any surgical changes to my secondary sex characteristics, seeing a gender therapist, or what have you. I don't often feel dysphoria either, and when I do it's often mild.
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on August 28, 2013, 06:31:32 AM
OK, so based on this, it would be acceptable for me to refer to many of my lesbian friends as men? They wear mens/andro clothes, have short and often untidy hair, they don't shave much of anything and certainly don't use makeup. Some are also lacking the 'accepted' curves..
Of course it's not OK.. Nor does it happen that I've ever seen or heard. And quite frankly, the stereotype you seem to want to project is kinda insulting..
I'm a woman.. I frequently wear jeans and a tshirt.. I rarely wear makeup - only for a rare occasion.. I do from time to time shave my legs and pits, but not so much in winter.. Oh, and how do I know I'm a woman? The way other people interact with me is one sign. The complete lack of straight exGF's is a somewhat amusing sign. But it's mostly because that's what my heart and soul tells me I am - as it always has.
Oh, and just for giggles, I have days where IDGAF and I've been out and about with stubble.. Still get called ma'am - even when I'm wearing an old pair of guys jeans and a fairly andro tshirt..
Hi Kelly,
Seems to me that you are actually agreeing with Glitterfly since by your own account you are feminine enough to be perceived by others as a woman without making any particular effort. Good for you!
I would guess that my wife would also be perceived as a woman no matter what she did in terms of make-up, clothes etc.. because she is sufficiently feminine in lot's of other ways to be always perceieved as a woman.
Interestingly, last Saturday night I had dinner in a restaurant at a table right next to a lesbien couple and we ended out having quite a chat together. What really started the chat was hearing one of the two complain that she had recently been called "Monsieur" (Sir) by someone and she had been very offended by it. However given the way she presented, male goth dress, half her head shaved, piercing and a very narrow androgynous body, it was in reality an easy mistake to make.
I have the impression that this is all Glitterfly is saying.To use your own words,
"The way other people interact with me is one sign" , if others are constantly perceiving you as being of the opposite gender to the gender you wished to be perceived as and if this is a problem for you, it is probably up to you to do something about it. At the end of the day, "Real communication is the response you get...."
Hugs
Donna
Quote from: Shantel on August 28, 2013, 09:52:03 AM
Militantly binary trans folk are invariably more fragile and dependent on the perception of others for their own validation as opposed to non-binary types who are much less concerned about how other's perceive them and more interested in simply being who they are to themselves, often enjoying anything from a flamboyant presentation one day to a blah one the next. It's got nothing to do with being lazy and everything to do with being rather well grounded and content in their own skin. The idea of having to meet anyone else's expectations and fit into someone else's mental box is irritating, but then one has to always consider the source and be patient with binary perceptions keeping in mind that they are emotionally much more susceptible to a disdainful look or off color remark from others than are non-binarys who usually just blow it off.
I'm binary trans person.. Not miliatant about it at all, it's just part of who I am.. The section I've bolded is just as true for me as it is for any non-binary..
Saying that we binary people are more likely to get upset by a look or remark is doing yourself a great disservice, I'll let you work out why.
Quote from: Glitterfly on August 28, 2013, 06:33:39 PM
Do the lesbian friends look like men to strangers or not? It's a yes-or-no question. Is it okay for you -their friend- to call them men though you know they wish to be seen as women? No, that's insulting. If however they look like men -and not just guyish women- to the general populace then what basis do they have to expect everyone to see them as women? There are gender roles in a society for a reason, they make it easier to distinguish the gender. That's their whole purpose. They're just social agreements, but they exist~ the more you go breaking those conventions the more the chances of you being mispercieved. It's nice if you can live in your LGBT bubble and remain oblivious to the effect but that doesn't mean the effect isn't there~ the cause and effect is very clear :)
I love that you assume that because I have friends who are lesbians and that I'm a lesbian that I live in some kind of LGBT bubble.. I don't.. My best friend is a hetero woman, I'm good friends with many hetero males.. I live primarily in the 'straight' world. I guess the point I was making is that they don't follow the 'social conventions' for how a woman should appear, but no one accuses them of being men.. And funnily enough, in my younger days, I'd often turn up to things dressed well, in a shirt and tie or suit - just with a full makeup job and my longish hair styled nicely, no one ever accused me of being anything other than a little weird. (That may have been because they knew giving me any trouble would mean a visit from a very angry Samoan guy with a reputation for violence.)
Quote from: Glitterfly on August 28, 2013, 07:13:07 PM
Thanks :) I agree and I think you're right, this has just been a misunderstanding! I'm sorry if I haven't expressed myself clearly enough~
Kelly, two things: Your last paragraph kind of disproved itself. people afraid of violence aren't going to act honestly so that's not really a sign of anything.
And... you seem to take this all very personally, the bubble comment was directed at any hypothetical person who might be in that kind of a situation (we all know some people do that whether cis or lgbt, create a bubble and shut out the rest of the world) It's good if you don't do that :)
Well, it was a direct response to something I'd posted, is it any wonder I thought it was directed at me?
It took 6 months or so before any one did say anything.. And that's when they found out about my Samoan friend.. I was managing an underage nightclub at the time, so I was neck-deep in teens that had would have a go at anything that was different, just not me for some reason.. It also probably helped that I was a friendly, approachable person that most people liked..
Quote from: MagicKitty on August 23, 2013, 01:34:52 AM
I see myself as that, if I could choose to be born a female, I would. But being born a guy never bothered me much. Yet I still want to transition, and am transitioning, because it's how I feel I should be, how I feel I should look.
I fit the "mild trans" definition.
I'm a guy physically, but mentally a girl. But I'm not so dysphoric that every day is a complete nightmare. I can handle being male, but I'd strongly
prefer to be female.
The thing I struggle with (and which you seem to struggle with) is whether it's worth the effort.
Transition is harrowing. It's expensive, time-consuming, painful, and stressful. We'll lose friends and family who we care deeply for. So for someone like me, who is on the edge, it's really a balancing act. It's not black and white; I'm not someone experiencing longstanding dysphoria since I was five years old and who
knew I was trans for as long as I can remember. It's a more subtle feeling, where what we lose by transitioning may not - in the long run - be offset by what we gain.
If I could choose my gender from birth, it would be female - 100% female. But now, with a reasonable life that is male - family, friends, job, kids, etc., all of which I don't mind on a daily basis - I do struggle with the idea of whether I'm trans enough to actually transition, or whether it would be better to keep it all in and suck it up.
Well, if indeed in the end transitioning isn't the solution for Michele because she doesn't have enough symptoms to want to bother with transitioning, then perhaps she fits what I'm theoricizing here (first posts).
スレに関係ないけど、少しだけ日本語できます。話し合いたければＰＭでお願い。 ;D
(I really like the picture smilies, myself.)
Glitter, no, don't go. Ask questions if something confuses you. I'm genderqueer, not a vampire. I don't bite, not unless we're very close and you want me to. :P
I'm gonna pick another point or two and build on them.
> What difference does gender make to a person who doesn't care?
So, I agree with Glitterfly. If you're the last person alive, gender doesn't really mean anything. It's a way by which people understand each other. But, that isn't the world we live in, so that doesn't tell us much.
I don't like being gendered, not because it disagrees with who I am (I cannot be gendered without being misgendered) but because it's only one angle and keeps people from seeing all of me.
Once you gender someone (people in general, and me too) "out of place" or ambiguous features become less noticeable. How do you make Steve Perry of Journey sound like a woman? Pair his voice with picture of Aretha Franklin. (I posted this over in the voice training stuff. It's eerie.)
So, things I actually like about myself (I'm subtle and demure, say) become bad (I'm wishy-washy and wussy) because of that gender thing IDGAF about.
Or, I'm not allowed to be pretty unless I'm looking for sex with men.
(Okay, bad example. I'd rather be cute or elegant than pretty. And to be fair, social norms for women seeking women are similarly stupid (http://thoughtcatalog.com/2012/why-lipstick-lesbians-have-to-keep-on-coming-out-of-the-closet/), so it's not just a gender thing.)
Basically, prejudice makes gender my problem. It's not that I'm in the wrong body or brain. It's that I'm mad that I've been forced to choose.
Ooh, that leads me to another point.
> So what does it matter how you're accepted? If you just accept yourself isn't that enough?
Imagine you've always wanted to be Romeo in a play. You can learn all the lines, nail the characterization, everything's perfect, you pretty much are Romeo. Except that you're not playing Romeo until... a director picks you, or you're satisfied with your performance opening night, or people come to see you, or at least something like that.
But for non-binary people, our dream role might be one we've never heard of ourselves. Never mind our audience or fellow actors or the director. And when we end up on stage cast in an awkward role, maybe it doesn't hurt so much because we don't know what we're missing, or because we even like our assigned part and we've found ways to make it our own.
That doesn't mean we like being typecast all the time. Or that we have any less desire to write the part we could best play.
That was an interesting article you linked to. Although I think I'm bi, I was amused at the eventuality of maybe one day have a man hit on me and, internally laughing, watch his reaction as I say "I have a girlfriend". Sounds like a priceless sight. Though I can see how it could get old after a while.