Mild trans people

[Donna Elvira]

Since I survived until I was in my early fifties before finally deciding to transition, by many standards I could have been considered as a "mild trans" person. That being said, it was only after I allowed myself to to move forward with my transition that even I came to fully understand how much this meant to me. There's a French expression "le faim vient en mangeant" = "hunger comes with eating" that very accurately describes the mental process I have gone through.

I feel so good at finally being able to live as a woman that it almost seems like a fairy tale or a really pleasant dream.  Every time I see a female face looking back at me in the mirror and hear myself being called "Madame"  is a moment of real joy. The novelty of this will certainly wear off but, for me at least, it kills any idea off the idea that I was ever a "mild trans" person. A very repressed trans person is probably a far more accurate discription of where I was.

If any further confirmation was necessary, in the testimonial letters I have received from family and friends in support of my civil identity change, almost everyone insists on how easily I have moved into my female persona....
My 2 c's to the subject!
Donna

[KabitTarah]

Since I survived until I was in my early fifties before finally deciding to transition, by many standards I could have been considered as a "mild trans" person. That being said, it was only after I allowed myself to to move forward with my transition that even I came to fully understand how much this meant to me. There's a French expression "le faim vient en mangeant" = "hunger comes with eating" that very accurately describes the mental process I have gone through.

I feel so good at finally being able to live as a woman that it almost seems like a fairy tale or a really pleasant dream.  Every time I see a female face looking back at me in the mirror and hear myself being called "Madame"  is a moment of real joy. The novelty of this will certainly wear off but, for me at least, it kills any idea off the idea that I was ever a "mild trans" person. A very repressed trans person is probably a far more accurate discription of where I was.

If any further confirmation was necessary, in the testimonial letters I have received from family and friends in support of my civil identity change, almost everyone insists on how easily I have moved into my female persona....
My 2 c's to the subject!
Donna

I think that's the real difficulty of the situation. Me, for example. I've been out to myself for 3 weeks tomorrow. How can I know I was mild when I was repressed. Thinking on it rationally, and thinking of my history, I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle - but how can one tell without experience? I can't say (i.e. to my wife) that just dressing up will be the cure when I haven't dressed up. The same goes for hormones and surgery.

I know what the cure is... I need to find out if it is worse than the situation. (I'll not say "disease" nor "problem" there )

[Donna Elvira]

I think that's the real difficulty of the situation. Me, for example. I've been out to myself for 3 weeks tomorrow. How can I know I was mild when I was repressed. Thinking on it rationally, and thinking of my history, I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle - but how can one tell without experience? I can't say (i.e. to my wife) that just dressing up will be the cure when I haven't dressed up. The same goes for hormones and surgery.

I know what the cure is... I need to find out if it is worse than the situation. (I'll not say "disease" nor "problem" there )

Hi Kabit,
I already saw some of your other posts too. You may find some ideas on where to take it from where you are now in this post: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,147525.msg1212901.html#msg1212901
Wishing  you the very, very best of luck.
Donna

[Shantel]

I find this thread offensive.

If you understood the intent of what the OP was attempting to convey then it wouldn't be offensive. It's probably best to avoid any thread that you find offensive rather than even making the comment which is sure to hurt someone's feelings.

[Devlyn]

   I found this thread potentially offensive, too, and have already posted a Rule #10 warning in it. Please express yourself carefully, we are dancing on the edge of the rules here. Hugs, Devlyn

[Shantel]

Being "Mildly Trans" as I am, I packed my feminized androgynous body into totally male attire consisting of T-shirt, jeans, tennies, hooded sweatshirt and baseball cap, and traipsed on off to an early morning VA appointment at the eye clinic. Once inside the building I stopped at the coffee kiosk and was immediately ma'am'ed by the woman that runs it, not once but twice. She doesn't know that I'm TG but to me that was my idea of a mildly trans morning as someone perfectly content in an androgynous lifestyle.    I probably should have taken her with me to the eye clinic! 

[Shantel]

Mx. Lonely,
         Don't waste any of life's energy worrying about how others perceive you here or anywhere else for that matter. Everyone has their own slot to fit in on the broad gender spectrum. After all do the fingers on your hand tell the thumb that they are less of a finger because of thus and so? Just be who you are and relax, you don't have to fit into any particular box to be you!

[Lyric]

I just ran across this thread and had to laugh a bit at the "mild trans" realization. I've been slapping Susan's readers up the side of the head for years trying to communicate that gender identity is very much something that occurs in varying degrees rather than being an either/or proposition. While there are many people who have a need to completely identify themselves as  a different gender than their birth, there are others (probably more others) who possess this need to varying lessor degrees. They (we) are not fakes or unfulfilled TSs-- we are just people with genetics of one gender who identify-- to some degree-- with the "other". To what degree we do this is up to each of us to decide.

I, personally, don't really even consider myself androgynous (though some might). I think the common idea of androgyny (displaying traits of both genders) is just one of many ways to be. I can safely say after years among such folks, I don't fit in with the so-called male "crossdresser" crowd, either. That's an interesting scene, but it's not mine. What I am does not have an easily identified name yet, but that's OK with me.

~ Lyric ~

[Taka]

My worry is less how others perceive me and more how others react to me.  If my neighbor thinks I'm a gay man in a dress and heels, I honestly don't care.  If he makes it uncomfortable, or even scary to live beside him, then I start to care because action, or inaction, starts to have consequences.  Same goes for the forums here, I don't care who thinks I'm "trans enough" or "woman enough" to have the F marker, but if I am made to feel uncomfortable or that I am less woman because of X,Y or Z, I am having to weigh the options of fighting against the stereotypes for me and other women like me so that maybe one day we can be comfortable identifying as women at least on a support site or to just let it slide and not let it bother me because there are always going to be people like that even on this website.  I opted for the second option and took off the F marker just to make it easier, I just felt that I should express why I did it so that just MAYBE some of those people will read this and even just TRY to be more accepting of women of all types.  I have serious doubts about that but at least I gave it a shot.

sounds like you belong with that idgaf crowd. very close to me as a woman, i never care about how people perceive me or doing all that hard work that some women do just to... i'm not even sure why they're doing it. applying makeup every day, making sure to shave all those places regularly, looking pretty for some guys who'd rather see them with less makeup because seriously. it tastes horrible and gets in the way and hides a woman's charm. interestingly guys do want them to shave though, so... i should probably put in a little more work if i'm to be a part-time woman.
just joking. only time i'll care to shave my legs is if i go to a public bath. just to not freak out all the others. too lazy for anything else.

and now, just because all this talk of being a woman, please don't anyone tell me that i can't be a man as well. i'd be a little saddened if you did that. not that i make too much out of that either.

Now I'm wondering about this: how many people are there who, a bit like my ex-roommate, if they were given the choice of their gender, before being born, wouldn't choose what they ended up with, but who would never think of transitioning at all?

i think i forgot to answer this initial question.
there were times when i thought it would be better if i were born as the opposite sex. and then times i was glad i was born as my birth sex. after a few years of contemplating all my experiences related to being me, i've come to the conclusion that i would not be me if i were not born just the way i was. one thing is my birth sex, which i wish i could change, though not before my birth. another thing is this interesting mix inside, not really knowing what i am, but being very sure that my birth sex doesn't reveal even half the truth about my gender.

three years of being out to myself have only gotten me farther away from transition. i started out thinking i really needed it, then everything calmed down after a while, and now i'm just thinking that i want it. it might help with some issues, so it's worth trying. but it's not like i'm planning t rush into it as fast as at all possible. i'll wait to see for a while, when it seems good to start, or if i can get any doctor to work with.

the more i come to terms with being myself, the less important transition seems to be. i do believe i'll end up there, but i can't say if it will be in two or twenty years.

[Shantel]

I'm probably being over sensitive here.  I'm sorry.

Yeah, try to relax and take a big breath. You and I along with many others are on the same page in the spectrum, it's ok if not everyone else agrees with us, after all what would the world be like if we were all cast from an identical mold?

[musicofthenight]

I'm probably being over sensitive here.  I'm sorry.

Sorry.  (What am I apologizing for; I haven't done anything, right?  That's the problem.)

Obviously something isn't working for you and I feel like I could help if I understood, but I'm, like, a few episodes behind in your story if that makes sense. 

I'd like to offer kind words, because I have no insightful ones right now.  But I'm working on it.

[Devlyn]

If you don't understand and you think you're hurting people, maybe it's time to just listen. Hugs, Devlyn

[musicofthenight]

men can be emotional and considerate too~

I have been punished for it, like actually penalized specifically for expressing my emotions, by more than one person, all of whom did so because they thought they were helping me develop as a man.

Yes, I agree with your words.  But please understand there is actually some female privilege involved here, and that "can" comes with "except"s as well.

(I'm not in a position to disagree with your other points at the moment.  I don't agree with all of them - not saying this to discount where you're coming from, just please don't take my silence as confirmation.)

[musicofthenight]

"Trans Enough" or
Why Hurt Feelings are Par for the Course Here

Trans enough for what?

Do you have to be X amount trans to grow your hair out, or cut it short?  To wear makeup (the "wrong" way)?  To modify your voice, bind, tuck, wear breast forms, or dress a certain way?

I think we all know the right answer, and it's "no, you don't have to be trans enough."  That's what we'd each say to each other.

But not to ourselves.  And that's the key problem that everyone here faces.

"Maybe this is just a phase.  Maybe they're all right.  Maybe I'm crazy.  Maybe, maybe, maybe."  You'd never say it to someone else, but you do say it to yourself.

And, if you're "mild trans" in some way and you meet someone who isn't, who you think is more trans than you are, those doubts come back.

I think everyone needs to be aware of this effect.  It's okay, it's normal, but yeah it hurts.



Glitter, you're being awesome trying to get it.  Thanks.  And, Lonely, I can see you're putting up with a lot of doubt, which is awesome too.

I'm going to try to say something substantial in a bit, but I had to put this out first.

[A]

Phew. I... have never seen a thread get so many updates in just one day of not reading it. Useless comment, but my stupefaction refused to stay put and be silent.

only time i'll care to shave my legs is if i go to a public bath.

Some more unrelated, useless stuff, but... Taka, where do you live? I've never seen or fathomed the idea of a public bath outside anime, and I thought they were something unique to Japan. I'm really curious to know in what other countries they exist. If you don't mind, of course.

Mx. Lonely: I must congratulate you for your courage. Many, many people, if they felt like you, would barely be able to stand being trans and wouldn't truly live as themselves and rather put themselves in an easier, more common, bucket. Then again if they judge that the social consequences are worse than the consequences of not truly living as themselves, that's fine too, but I'm still impressed by someone like you who's going all out with their convictions and feelings.

Also, I must congratulate you for your attitude towards Glitterfly. It's a rare thing on this forum to have someone actually recognize someone who is trying to understand or help without ill intent. Heck, I've seen worse, on me and others, for much less. As soon as I saw her post, I was getting ready for the huge overreaction that would follow, and I was pleasantly surprised. Even though deep down I'm worried about how sensitive people can be, right now I prefer to rejoice on a good display of wisdom.

[A]

A gender therapist would probably be very helpful to you. We only know what we've lived and read about, and that doesn't fly very far, especially when it comes to cases that are rather far from our understanding and experience or simply less common. Someone who deeply understands gender and has seen a lot of varied cases, however, could be particularly well-suited in helping you understand things and make transition (and/or non-transition) decisions.

It would probably bring you relief, too, to feel understood and helped.

Glitterfly: Your exchange has been much more on-topic than a lot of the messages before you. Honestly it's good that the topic is deriving on a different but related and interesting course, because the original intent of the thread was vastly misunderstood to the point that I stopped hoping for any fruitful discussion to come of it, so. 謝らないで (No, I have nothing but the most basic of knowledge of Japanese and do not know a single kanji. Courtesy of the copy-paste function, whee.)

[A]

Since we're deep into off-topic, funny how specific that manner of using smileys and tildes is to Japanese and other Asian people of the same region. I wonder why. I find it funny because before even reading your comment on public baths, I was almost sure you were from Japan or Hong Kong or something like that.

(Or I'm currently ridiculizing myself and you're just someone who likes that Japan-ish kind of writing.)

[Taka]

those smileys are really common on the internets nowadays. i have this cat i often talk to who uses them all the time. i don't use any emots ever, so you won't see those from me either.

No problem ^^ I still feel like this isn't exactly my thread as I'm not even a little bit fluid/"mild"~ It was interesting to learn about this~! if I see something relevant here later I might come back (to read at least) but I wish to leave you to your thread so your discussion may be with people who feel the same way, that would seem to be more relevant ne? ^^ Thank you for teaching me something new~

it's nice to see some fairly extreme binaries (meaning clearly place at one of the ends of the scale that i don't really believe in) join this discussion. some times i think we don't talk enough about it. just one wrong wording can set everything on fire, but trying to stay to the topic intended rather than reading too much hate into a badly formulated post can take us a long way. one of the problems with this kind of discussion is that we aren't talking about something commonly agreed upon, the non-binary isn't nicely predefined in any way, and we're still trying to figure out what it really is we are.

i take "mild" in the topic to mean more like mild symptoms or milder treatment, than more or less trans. trans, or a gender, is something you either are or are not, there's no point measuring that. but the symptoms, and how to treat them should be discussed much more.

Some more unrelated, useless stuff, but... Taka, where do you live? I've never seen or fathomed the idea of a public bath outside anime, and I thought they were something unique to Japan. I'm really curious to know in what other countries they exist. If you don't mind, of course.

maybe i used the wrong word. i meant swimming pools, the beach, anywhere people will see me in very revealing feminine attire, and i don't want to show off how unfeminine i really am.


and here are my angry answers. i let myself provoke a little, i only want to post them to see if we actually disagree so much as i initially thought. i started doubting the disagreement after one more page...

"sounds like you belong with that idgaf crowd" but what difference does gender make to a person who doesn't care?

i was thinking about those women who seriously don't care about doing all that hard work which other women do to live up so some kind of ideal which i seriously don't understand. because as a woman, i don't really care to be all that nice and smooth for nobody to see. i don't care about wearing the right stuff, plucking my eyebrows all the time, applying mascara every morning etc. anyone who says it's hard work to be a woman should take a step back and think about what else they can do than just be a woman, in order to be a woman.

Can anyone explain to me why it matters to them what gender they are if it absolutely doesn't matter to them how they look and how they are perceived? also if transitioning or paying attention to your looks (which everyone should do regardless of their gender) is something that can be overridden by simple laziness then how significant can it be to that person? it seems really counterintuitive... all of it.

gender is something which is generally taken for granted, so to say. a woman is a woman, a man is a man. when talking to cissexualists, they'll even tell you that it doesn't matter how much you change your appearance, you're still what you're "born as". they only think of the body's sex. when i talk about gender, i think about the person's internal gender. but i'm still of the meaning that a woman is a woman, whether she has a male or female body, wants to change or decides not to, likes seeing her face in the mirror or not. there are cis women who decide not to change their non-feminine looks with medical treatment or surgery. trans women should have that same right, whether it's due to laziness, convenience, fears, or other reasons.

[kelly_aus]

I can appreciate it being harder for some because of this stuff coming less naturally them and any disadvantages they might have like a more masculine facial structure and I feel very sympathetic to anyone who doesn't have the advantages I or someone else might have but when the person says it's a choice all around, that they could do something about it but they just don't want to then I think 'okay, this woman chooses not to do anything to present as a female, whether she's cis or trans doesn't matter if she wasn't lucky enough to look female enough without any effort at all... the world is going to see her as a male. what is she expecting?'

OK, so based on this, it would be acceptable for me to refer to many of my lesbian friends as men? They wear mens/andro clothes, have short and often untidy hair, they don't shave much of anything and certainly don't use makeup. Some are also lacking the 'accepted' curves..

Of course it's not OK.. Nor does it happen that I've ever seen or heard. And quite frankly, the stereotype you seem to want to project is kinda insulting..

I'm a woman.. I frequently wear jeans and a tshirt.. I rarely wear makeup - only for a rare occasion.. I do from time to time shave my legs and pits, but not so much in winter.. Oh, and how do I know I'm a woman? The way other people interact with me is one sign. The complete lack of straight exGF's is a somewhat amusing sign. But it's mostly because that's what my heart and soul tells me I am - as it always has.

Oh, and just for giggles, I have days where IDGAF and I've been out and about with stubble.. Still get called ma'am - even when I'm wearing an old pair of guys jeans and a fairly andro tshirt..

[Taka]

well, many, way too many, girls actually believe that there is something "special" they have to do in order to qualify as... a girl? it's an extremely binary thing that i don't really understand the workings of, i have only observed it. when so many cis girls feel like they have to do all this hard work to be a girl, i don't find it too weird that many trans girls feel that same need.

but still, having gotten to the level of underlying thoughts is a good progression in this conversation. it's so easy to just spout all the conclusions as if they were facts, knowing the reasoning behind always helps when trying to learn about something, or getting to know someone else.

glitterfly, i have to think a little more about how to express my thoughts before writing my full reply to your post. at least i now think i know what you find problematic, now it's just up to me to find a way to explain what i'm thinking...