Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Sometimes and a lot of times people put transexual and gay/lesbian in the same container. For example when i search transgender community in my country i always found LGBT community not just T community. it bothers me a lot because it is a very different thing. But what about you guys?

I'm not much of a fan of the T being in the LGBT. A lot of LGBT organizations really don't cater to trans* issues or if they do they are addressed after the sexual orientation issues. Trans* issues and lgb issues are not the same, there are areas of over lap, i.e. there are plenty of gay/lesbian/bi trans* people, but (and speaking from experience) lgbt spaces are heavily cis-priviledged. I'm all for being friends and allies but I think there should be a clear separation between sexual orientation and trans* spaces and activism.

lgbt spaces are often dictated by lgb people while trans* people are really just token individuals to legitimize the t addition, so I'm not really into it. There was a good thread in the androgyne section about a similar topic but I couldn't seem to find it, maybe some else can.

I see the association of LGB and T as being one of political expedience more than anything. And legitimately so. As sexual minorities, we have common interests politically that are better served by coordinating efforts than going it alone. That being said, I do think that it muddies the waters in terms of public perception, reinforcing the misguided perception that T* is a sexuality.

Here's my current toy analogy:

In terms of community politics, T is to LGB as Canada is to the US: they're by far our closest friends but we're uneasy because they numerically overwhelm us.

It doesnt bother me, I am Trans however I am Lesbian so... Im lesbian.

Well I am for now lol thank you hormones!!

It doesn't bother me in the slightest.  I mean transition many trans persons become gay and in my case, I was Gay/Bi before transition. So there's that. Plus, we need them more then they need us. Do you think we will get further in acceptance without the help of the Gay community? I highly doubt that. In my city, and in the Northeast in general, the trans in LGBT does not stand for Token and the mazzoni center was originally a center for gay men with HIV. So there's that too.

I don't have a problem with it. I do kind of have a problem with the way society labels people by who they happen to love though. I like men in some peoples eyes I'm a gay man in my eyes even though I hate to say it I'm straight. But if the unthinkable happens and I fall for a woman does that make me a lesbian no. Because really when it comes down to it I don't fall in love with labels I fall in love with people. I just normally happen to fall for people with big muscles and some facial hair that isn't a label that's just what I'm attracted too.  ;)

It doesn't bother me.  Actually, I am glad that the community is integrated.  There is a lot of political clout behind the lgbt movement.  If we were to separate, we would lose a lot of influence and find it harder to get support for our cause.  Let's face it, people are more likely to fight for gays and lesbians than they are for trans people alone.  When we join them or are seen as a part of their struggle, we get a lot more political and social backing.  I think there is strength in numbers and the lgbt community is a great example of that.  Besides, we do face a lot of the same issues even if gender and sexuality are different.  Nonetheless, it pisses me off when people cannot understand the distinction between being trans and gay.  It really is a simple concept and shouldn't require consistent explanations; unfortunately, in the case of my family, this is frequently necessary.   Thank god I'm not a lesbian because that would just blow their minds,lol.

The LGB community has every right to ask for acceptance in society, and I'm happy they include us in their desire for acceptance.  But I've never felt like I'm part of their group, and I hope I don't piss anyone off by saying this.  So forgive me if it does.

The difference between LGB and trans is so obvious that I'm sometimes stunned by the misguided statements I hear from my family, friends, and acquaintances.  So often they seem to think that being trans is all about dressing a part, a sexual fetish, lifestyle, or worst of all - a type of sexual deviance.  Explaining it is often terribly futile, but this is pretty much what I tell those who don't understand.

In the LGB community an individual doesn't need to change their body to live as the person they are.  And they don't spend upwards of 50K on electrolysis, SRS, and sometimes cosmetic surgery.  They also don't have to take medication every day for the rest of their lives, give themselves injections, or see therapists and doctors for approvals to have their life opened up to them.  You see, the members of the LGB community already possess everything they need to be lesbian, gay or bi, and nothing else needs to be ingested, injected, added, subtracted, or surgically changed (unless it's for vanity sake). 

But with all this said, I wouldn't turn down any offer to help with inclusion in a desire for acceptance.  Just don't lump me in without some understanding or explanation.

K

My main issue with LGBT is quite simple. It creates ignorance.

When ever I expalin how I am trans people always go so your just a gay guy who likes girl cloths? I cant name a time that hasnt been said to me and I go no I am trans they go who really cares your all the same.

I know quite a few gay guys who are in my local LGBT society/club and not one of them understand the difference between a transexual and a ->-bleeped-<-, I assume most believe the T is for transv and not for us. It may be a simple reason to hate the term but honestly it clumps us together allowing ignorance and yes some of us are bi/les/gay but that shouldnt be a reason for trans to be put in the same boat.

Sorry I just believe I am a girl and therefore why must i be cirycled out as some wanna be girl?

 I've come to think that T means token.There's a lot of transphobia and haters on the gay scene and over the past few years I felt less and less accepted.I'm bi and that makes me a minority minority

There is no LGBT community. The T in LGBT is silent. It's not the same thing, at all. LGB people aren't trying to get fixed with medication and surgery. It isn't a lifestyle, political statement, or even cool. And I'm so tired of well meaning people discovering I'm trans, then grabbing me by the hand to be introduced to the token gay person. I'm not gay, or even fabulous, for that matter.

In most places LGBT should really be G(L) and possibly a small ((b)).  Often the real opposition to MtFs and discrimination comes from gay men.

However, my church LGBT group currently has more T than GL members.  Even so we find we are taking part in the "Gay" Pride parade and hosting "Gay" marriage speakers.  I think I'll do (even more) rocking the boat in the planning meetings!

Quote from: MaryXYX on September 03, 2013, 06:01:17 AM
In most places LGBT should really be G(L) and possibly a small ((b)).  Often the real opposition to MtFs and discrimination comes from gay men.

However, my church LGBT group currently has more T than GL members.  Even so we find we are taking part in the "Gay" Pride parade and hosting "Gay" marriage speakers.  I think I'll do (even more) rocking the boat in the planning meetings!

wow, i did not know that.. i thought gay men would understand us better than straight men

Quote from: learningtolive on September 03, 2013, 12:24:02 AM
It doesn't bother me.  Actually, I am glad that the community is integrated.  There is a lot of political clout behind the lgbt movement.  If we were to separate, we would lose a lot of influence and find it harder to get support for our cause.  Let's face it, people are more likely to fight for gays and lesbians than they are for trans people alone.  When we join them or are seen as a part of their struggle, we get a lot more political and social backing.  I think there is strength in numbers and the lgbt community is a great example of that.  Besides, we do face a lot of the same issues even if gender and sexuality are different.  Nonetheless, it pisses me off when people cannot understand the distinction between being trans and gay.  It really is a simple concept and shouldn't require consistent explanations; unfortunately, in the case of my family, this is frequently necessary.   Thank god I'm not a lesbian because that would just blow their minds,lol.

All of this ^^ ... Except I am lesbian and it does seem to blow the mind of family "But you like women so you normal" (Dad), "No I like women so Im gay. I am a woman that likes other women." (Me), *his world explodes*

Quote from: princessemma on September 03, 2013, 06:36:31 AM
wow, i did not know that.. i thought gay men would understand us better than straight men

And yes there seems to be some tension with gay men and trans. I myself have noticed a distancing of at least two of my gay friends since i first started transitioning.

I have some friends who are gay men, but it seems there are many gay men who are even more obsessed with the size of their dicks than straight men.  To them the very worst thing that could happen to any man would be to lose his.  Do you see the misunderstanding?  I'm not a man who wants to get rid of his dick, I'm a woman who needs correction for an anatomical fault.  I feel this is part of the reason that so called LGBT groups are often of no help at all to the "T" members.

After reading what some of you posted I want to say more.  Please understand I'll always accept help, but:

Most of us just want to be the women we truly are, and then live as ourselves without being singled out for anything else.  We want to blend into a society that many LGB individuals feel rejects them, and this aspect of our transitions confuses the issues they promote.  So if we hinder their immediate needs we often fall behind in their highly defined struggle, and our fight is left for the future (maybe).

Ask how many states have laws specifically related to LGB rights (all).   Then ask how many have states have laws to specifically support transgender individuals (few).   For example in many states we can be arrested for using the wrong restroom without an ID showing our desired name and gender, and this can sometimes fall into a sex crime category where we're marked for life as sexual predators by the law.  Where is the fight to change these laws?  And what about credit and loans, employment protection, health care, and housing discrimination?  I just don't see a lot of LGB individuals fighting for us on these issues, or even asking for changes.

I'd say more, but I'd be making many of you mad.  I'm probably off base anyway.  Sorry.

K

I hate when ignoramuses lump transgirls in with gay men (and transguys with butch lesbians).  That being said, I would never support the T being segregated from LGBT.  If it wasn't for being grouped with 5-15% of the population, the trans rights movement would go pretty unspoken.  I can't imagine our treatments would be at their current level, and we would probably all be diagnosed with just having a mental disorder.  Quite a few of those who are in favor of the current LGBT crusade likely wouldn't support T as a separate entity.

Maybe that's a bit harsh, but I can't see us being in a better place without our LGB "allies."

They are different things and mixing them does create some problems especially with messaging, but it has advantages too.   I don't think SRS would have been added as a criteria for the HRC corporate equality index for instance, which I think is a really big deal because it will make SRS possible for a ton of people it would not have been otherwise.

I guess if it bugs me, there's a bunch of things that bug me more.

No not really, it doesnt bother me, when people tell me im gay/lesbian  I smile and say yes, yes I am. I love women.  They get the weirdest looks on their faces and usually walk away.

I think we belong together because the taboo and bigotry stems from the same space of general discomfort related to oppressive traditional gender expectations. That said, I try to educate people whenever I get the chance about how the two issues are represented by two completely separate spectrums (not black and white), i.e. the gender identification spectrum and the sexual orientation spectrum.

For similar reasons, it demonstrates ignorance when someone says, for instance, that a particular guy is "really gay" because he has very effeminate mannerisms. I tend to correct them and point out that's not what gay or homosexual means. If anything, maybe he's a little bit trans on the gender ID spectrum which would arguably make him less gay than a hyper-masculine man who's attracted to other hyper-masculine men. I could posit that I'm a little less gay on the spectrum because I'm often attracted to men with some feminine characteristics.

yes that's like one of the hardest parts of being a trans in a country like this. not in the way you all have posted above, it's just the ignorance of people around here. people know so little about LGBT issues that most of them dont know that bi and trans people actually exist! even i hadnt heard of the word transsexual until i was 17!
so whenever they see a man with girlish features they tag him as gay, and a woman with boyish features as a lesbian. thats what has been delaying my coming out, bcos i need to make at least the people around me know what i am actually. i dont know how many have already tagged me as lesbian. lesbians are not bad, but i dont want to be recognized as something i am not, in a gender which is not mine. plus it sucks to get tagged like that cos then nobody comes near you or speak with you and start whispering when you are around. they surely need more awareness about LGBTs

Don't be so sure about the so-called help the LGB community has "trickled down" our way. Many in medicine would have moved faster to listing this as a genetic disorder sooner, had the politicization of the issue not become so acute with the LGB militancy. I understand the fight for equality by gays and lesbians. (BTW, my gay friends, especially gay women have been terrible to me with their unsolicited advice. Let's call it what it is, unsolicited advice is nothing more than criticism) I understand the significance of TV shows like Ellen and the Will and Grace Show. But where are the transgender hosts? The transgender TV reporters? The transgender politicians in office? They aren't any, to speak of. There's a reason for that, because it's not a political movement, but a genetic disorder that is treated with hormones, surgery, and in most cases, stealth. Once a patient is treated, they more on and assimilate. Not always, but the majority of time when the resources are available.

My case was an international news story, and I coöperated by making the TV show appearances to help spread the word and save a few lives. But, now that I'm getting close to crossing over with surgery, I'm thinking more, and more of stealth, and living an authentic life, that includes a husband, raising another child through adoption, and a white-picket fence.

Love, Zoey

I think we have it as LGBTG primarily as a 'strength in numbers' concept.

But let's look at this a different way.

Lesbians its about sex.
Gays, it's about sex.
Bi, it's about sex.

It's about sex.

TG, it's about me being in the wrong damned body. And who knows, I might hate sex, and then it is not even connected to a preference for who I want in bed eh.

I think to some extent, I'd rather be associated with other groups that deal with prejudice such as black people to give an example. They are black because they were born that way, and it has nothing to do with sex. I am TG, and I was born this way, and who I want to have sex with is not directly relevant. Blacks have dealt with bias against being served or where they can or can't go. The homosexual community to my knowledge don't really experience what we do, after all a cis female lesbian is not going to need to use the men's room and no one really seems to care if a cis female lesbian uses the ladies room and might be scoping out the other women.

I'd rather be known as either a hetero, or a homo or a bi TG and have the choice to decide if I want to make a fuss over my preferences for sex as a separate issue.

I have almost worked my way through reading "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serano (http://www.amazon.com/Whipping-Girl-Transsexual-Scapegoating-Femininity/dp/1580051545) and it has been a big help in providing me with the proper language to talk to people about my gender issues.  I think the main pertinent point out of the book that is helpful is describing the situation of misunderstanding between the LGB and the T is the concept of not 1 human sexuality slider but 3.  LGB people sit on the continuum of heterosexual/homosexual, which at this point is generally understandable by the majority of the population, you either like guys or girls, or sometimes you swing both ways.  What people tend to not understand is the other 2 scales that are mostly independent of each other.  Sexual Inclination and gender expression, or male/female and masculine/feminine.  Your biological or genetic gender predisposes you to be more towards one end of each spectrum, and its a very hard concept for people who are all lined up as masculine men who like women and feminine women who like men to grasp that in any given person could sit at any number of infinite combinations of the scales.

EDIT: personally I feel it's great that there is some sense of wanting to provide inclusion, it just seems that LGB has the slightly easier (I say easy as a gross understatement) time in providing the general population with the framework of human sexuality on which they identify.  Pulling out a nerd analogy, it is like when Nehls Bohr built his model of the hydrogen atom complete with the possible energy levels that electrons could inhabit each considered to orbit at some defined distance from the nucleus, only to be found that it was actually far more complicated later where electrons instead form fuzzy probability clouds which make it far harder to pinpoint their exact state.

Quote from: DrZoey on September 03, 2013, 05:42:55 AM
I'm not gay, or even fabulous, for that matter.

Quoted for emphasis /hugs

The whipping girl was a very good book, I especially like the gender identity power triangle. From the work book I identify as trans*, I think I scored a 46.

I was at the William Way LGBTQ Center (Philly) a few months ago waiting to see my therapist. The power had gone out and I was in the lobby sitting in the dark. There were 6 or 7 others in the lobby who were employees and they were talking about their childhoods. In the dark their stories were hurled into the emptiness. I just listened. I sat there thinking, how cool it was, to share their stories in the dark. I remained silent. I will say I felt and feel absolutely safe and welcome there in the dark and in the light.

We are different and yet we need them. Where would my therapist be if not there? I paid $15.80 today for 30 Lavetro pills from a Pharmacy at the Mazzoni center. That is $980 retail. Where would I be without the LGBT Mazzoni center. I also get finasteride there too for $17.80 ( would be $80.00 retail).

I am just getting a grip with being trans. It bothers me if I get mis-orientated.  I point out the difference and see that it does not register. I just remember they are a fish in water and at this point I need allies.

I think LGB want to be considered "normal" and shy away from the trans* association because it is extraordinary and in their eyes reduces their legitimacy.


My boss, when I shared my gender, said I am an Architect and in school there are a lot of gay guys, you are still the same person. I gave him She is not there, Whipping girl and My Gender Workbook. He is part of the Diversity team as an executive sponsor.

Quote from: Just Maddy! on September 02, 2013, 07:17:05 PM
I see the association of LGB and T as being one of political expedience more than anything. And legitimately so. As sexual minorities, we have common interests politically that are better served by coordinating efforts than going it alone. That being said, I do think that it muddies the waters in terms of public perception, reinforcing the misguided perception that T* is a sexuality.

Here's my current toy analogy:

In terms of community politics, T is to LGB as Canada is to the US: they're by far our closest friends but we're uneasy because they numerically overwhelm us.

OMG...we're Canadians!?!

;)

The OP has a point, many non-LGBT people assume that T = Gay or Lesbian

MtF who likes men = gay (because of former male status)
MtF who likes women = lesbian (because of current female status)
FtM who likes men = *pop* (cis-mind circuit breaker fail)
FtM who likes women = lesbian (because of former female status)

Many cis-people also assume that "gay" = "any non-hetero relationship"...for example, two guys who are close friends have to watch it, because if they are "too close", they're gay, whether or not they're actually gay. Two women who are close are automatically assumed to have lesbian tendencies, unless one is in an uber-conservative social click, then "gay" doesn't exist except in San Francisco and in some neighborhoods in NYC...

No matter what, it's just a matter of ignorance to some degree. I try to correct it, but sometimes one just has to walk away.

Does it bother me? Nah...I'm Canadian I have other things to worry about than randomly ignorant people.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 03, 2013, 07:41:32 PM
MtF who likes women = lesbian (because of current female status)
FtM who likes men = *pop* (cis-mind circuit breaker fail)

How exactly are these two different? Shouldn't FtM who likes men = gay (because of current male status) ?

Well colour me confused  :D

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 03, 2013, 07:41:32 PM
OMG...we're Canadians!?!

;)

The OP has a point, many non-LGBT people assume that T = Gay or Lesbian

MtF who likes men = gay (because of former male status)
MtF who likes women = lesbian (because of current female status)
FtM who likes men = *pop* (cis-mind circuit breaker fail)
FtM who likes women = lesbian (because of former female status)

Many cis-people also assume that "gay" = "any non-hetero relationship"...for example, two guys who are close friends have to watch it, because if they are "too close", they're gay, whether or not they're actually gay. Two women who are close are automatically assumed to have lesbian tendencies, unless one is in an uber-conservative social click, then "gay" doesn't exist except in San Francisco and in some neighborhoods in NYC...

No matter what, it's just a matter of ignorance to some degree. I try to correct it, but sometimes one just has to walk away.

Does it bother me? Nah...I'm Canadian I have other things to worry about than randomly ignorant people.

It's ok to admit to yourself that you're a Canadian in an American body. 

The thing I hate most that I have heard from the GBL community is "If you like women, why not just stay a man, wouldn't it be easier" and "You just want to be a woman so that you don't have to be gay."

I imagine this is why the confusion arises with FtM that like men.

Quote from: Anastasia E on September 03, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
How exactly are these two different? Shouldn't FtM who likes men = gay (because of current male status) ?

Well colour me confused  :D

You mespellt "color"...LOL  ;)

During the (admittedly few) conversations I've had with cis-hetero people, the FtM has always been the hardest to discuss. Yes, current male status would equate to being gay, but the straight people I've talked to couldn't make that leap to manhood, given the FtM's FAAB body.

And yet...they are male...but...they were female...but...if they're pre-op...arrggh_my_head_!!! *pop*

And of course, my experiences are no doubt different than yours or others...but that's not our problem, it's the cis-hetero who can't be bothered with important things...like learning.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 03, 2013, 08:35:35 PM
You mespellt "color"...LOL  ;)

More Canadian hate? :D  Kind of ironic that you misspelt "misspelt" hahaha

It doesn't bother me as much as it used to the the T is with the LGB. What does bother is when people claim that all FTMs are lesbians who can't deal with being lesbian and MTFs are gay men who can't deal with being gay. It's the most stupidest thing (after me actually producing the word stupidest ;) ) I've ever heard. What about gay trans men? What about lesbian trans women? What about bisexual transgender people? Aggghhhhhhh.

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 03, 2013, 07:57:08 PM
It's ok to admit to yourself that you're a Canadian in an American body. 

....

It's funny, but I've always been the polite sort, and never quite understood the apparently common rudeness from 90% of AABA (Assigned At Birth American) which give the other 10% a bad name...

I think I am Canadian, deep inside eh? I've always wanted to wear a Touk and drink Moose Drool (which is a beer from Montana, but sounds like it should be Canadian)...

Can I take hormones for this? Is there a surgery to remove or alter my Americaness?

eta: This is not a Canadian-sized effort at derailing this thread. Please ignore it, eh?

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 03, 2013, 08:43:03 PM
Can I take hormones for this? Is there a surgery to remove or alter my Americaness?

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index-can.asp

And you don't even need a diagnosis. :P

Maddy, proud Canadian

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 03, 2013, 07:41:32 PM
OMG...we're Canadians!?!

Well, that would explain why I like hockey so much.

Anyway...

I'm of the opinion that the LGBT community is not a singular entity, but rather an alliance between the trans community and the much larger LGB community. Like others here, I get incensed whenever people insist we're the same thing, as our needs are totally different. Being gay/lesbian/bi is all about one's sexuality, whereas sexuality has very little to do being trans. I don't mind teaming up with the LGB community to seek common goals, so long as we're not taken for granted.

Quote from: Joey. on September 03, 2013, 08:40:18 PM
It doesn't bother me as much as it used to the the T is with the LGB. What does bother is when people claim that all FTMs are lesbians who can't deal with being lesbian and MTFs are gay men who can't deal with being gay. It's the most stupidest thing (after me actually producing the word stupidest ;) ) I've ever heard. What about gay trans men? What about lesbian trans women? What about bisexual transgender people? Aggghhhhhhh.

and

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 03, 2013, 07:57:08 PM
The thing I hate most that I have heard from the GBL community is "If you like women, why not just stay a man, wouldn't it be easier" and "You just want to be a woman so that you don't have to be gay."

I think this comes down to two things: First, like many cis-gendered people, they have trouble wrapping their heads around the idea that one's gender doesn't always match one's biological sex. In that sense, they're no different than any other cis-gendered person. Compounding that is the second issue: insecurity. They don't comprehend how our genders can mismatch our bodies, so they instead assume that were simply gay people who have internalized too much heteronormativity, and are thus trying to "correct the wrong problem." As such, they see attempts to help us as reinforcing heteronormative attitudes rather than correcting birth defects, or elevating a similarly marginalized people. They misinterpret our existence as an attack on the legitimacy of their own condition and lash out as a result. Sad really.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on September 03, 2013, 02:49:39 PM
The homosexual community to my knowledge don't really experience what we do, after all a cis female lesbian is not going to need to use the men's room and no one really seems to care if a cis female lesbian uses the ladies room and might be scoping out the other women.

Well... not so much NOW. The pace of progress has been stunning. I didn't expect things to be where they are by now. It wasn't very long ago at all that lots of gay men were getting bashed and the idea that they might be checking out straight guys was a big motivation, particularly in places like restrooms and locker rooms where there may be some degree of nudity. Maybe you're very young and don't remember how it was just 10 or 20 years ago. Stonewall was just 40 years ago and it was REALLY bad. It was illegal to be in a bar while gay. Men were getting arrested for not facing the bar, i.e. turning around and looking at people ("cruising").

For those wishing to become Canadian, it is not any easy process.

We don't start fights, but we do love a good fight, just so long as the fight has already started so we are safely able to say we didn't start it. Because then we can really lay into the person that started the fight as it won't be are fault there was a fight. Look at our past, Canadians are often considered the nastiest on the field. WW1 we kicked some serious ass, WW2 we kicked some serious ass, hell there were actually Canadians volunteering to go to Vietnam as we had never kicked ass their before.

The whole peacekeeping deal is mainly as a result (I think myself) a reflection of the fact we just can't afford the toys like the US can. The US likely could solve a lot of it's needs to do this and that and the other thing around the globe, by just hiring Canadians instead. Hey let us have the gear and we will gladly go kick some butt, just so long as the target started the fight first though eh, that's a big rule with us.

That and you need a very high tolerance for absurb food and you need to like cold weather. Odds are if you come from Montana the process is a lot easier. Well I can't say if Montana people eat weird food, but their weather is nasty like ours.

And as Dalebert commented, yeah, I recall my youth, and it was not so long ago, being gay was no easy thing.

Quote from: Alice Danielle on September 03, 2013, 07:57:08 PM
It's ok to admit to yourself that you're a Canadian in an American body. 

The thing I hate most that I have heard from the GBL community is "If you like women, why not just stay a man, wouldn't it be easier" and "You just want to be a woman so that you don't have to be gay."

I imagine this is why the confusion arises with FtM that like men.

isn't that prove our point? that this is not about sex at all.. it's about who we are

Quote from: princessemma on September 04, 2013, 01:00:46 AM
isn't that prove our point? that this is not about sex at all.. it's about who we are

it would prove our point, if they took our answer seriously.

Honestly, it doesn't really bother me. I might politely correct them, and tell them I'm bi, I just want to be female. Because, if women heard I was gay, they'd think I have no interest in them, which isn't true. But even then it's not a huge deal. Heck, a few weeks ago my sister told me she told her friend that I plan on becoming a woman, and her friend asked if that meant I was gay, to which my sister replied "I guess." I still haven't corrected her on it lol. It's not like it's an insult or anything, they're just confused. At least I think so anyway.

I don't like the false image of me the inclusion seem to create, but I guess it's good for political reasons.

About gay people being more open to us than straight, I don't know. Some seem to think we are leaching off their cause and I've come across some raging transphobes in the gay community. I've seen lasbian feminists refer to the neo-vagina as a "second anus" and I've heard gay men say we (us who are mtf anyway) are nothing but men to chicken to accept the fact that we are really just self-loathing gay homophobes.

I have a really nice lesbian couple as friends but generally I try to stay away from gay people. Their threshold for outing trans people seem even lower than among straight people. I have a really close friend who is gay, and earlier this year another friend came to me and told me that said friend likes to share my story with great enthusiasm and lots of laughter in social settings. Apparently he thinks me being trans and having transitioned to be extremely hilarious. I confronted him about it and he told me that he thinks being a transsexual and transitioning was just too extreme and to sensational to keep on the low down.

Also gay people seem better at reading me than straight people, and sometimes they like to really let the world know they've clocked you by hollering, hooting and making sassy remarks. I'd rather be shot dead in the back of the head than go into a gay club.

Profanity edit

Quote from: MariaMx on September 04, 2013, 08:31:52 AM
I don't like the false image of me the inclusion seem to create, but I guess it's good for political reasons.

About gay people being more open to us than straight, I don't know. Some seem to think we are leaching off their cause and I've come across some raging transphobes in the gay community. I've seen lasbian feminists refer to the neo-vagina as a "second anus" and I've heard gay men say we (us who are mtf anyway) are nothing but men to chicken to accept the fact that we are really just self-loathing gay homophobes.

I have a really nice lesbian couple as friends but generally I try to stay away from gay people. Their threshold for outing trans people seem even lower than among straight people. I have a really close friend who is gay, and earlier this year another friend came to me and told me that said friend likes to share my story with great enthusiasm and lots of laughter in social settings. Apparently he thinks me being trans and having transitioned to be extremely hilarious. I confronted him about it and he told me that he thinks being a transsexual and transitioning was just too extreme and to sensational to keep on the low down.

Also gay people seem better at reading me than straight people, and sometimes they like to really let the world know they've clocked you by hollering, hooting and making sassy remarks. I'd rather be shot dead in the back of the head than go into a gay club.

I seem to get crapped on when I post comments like the above, but, the thing is, I DO support it.

I am transgender, and it seems the second we go out of our way to say we are not comfortable with being the TG part of LGBTG we get the reaction that we are homophobic. No I am not homophobic, but, I don't wish to be labeled what I am not either. I'm also not Christian just because I live in Canada regardless of what any of the nutjobs of the extremist muslim terrorist crowd want to think, nor do I give a hoot what they have to say about heathens. I'm not a heathen, I prefer to think of myself as educated and no, I don't much care what that sounds like either. Bear your cross if you must, don't assume I even have one though just because you might.

I am not a commie just because I like having a country that takes care of it's people through taxes. I hate how people speak the word 'social' as if it can't mean anything other than socialist and commie. I am probably more right wing than left wing, but, I don't require an ideology to be right wing, believe it or not. I am not pro gun ownership, but I also don't object to you using the stupid things.

I would much rather people actually didn't use LGBTG and left it as LGB only.
Because as far as I see it, my being TG has NOTHING to do with sex, it is all about wishing I was just in the right body and NOTHING else.
And the last time I checked, the LGB crowd was ALL about who they prefer to have sex with and who they can have a relationship with.

Meanwhile, there are likely a great many of the TG crowd who are ok being single, and yet, being TG is still a full time all day long issue.

Last night I was 100% miserable about being TG in this body. It intrudes, it annoys, it messes with and ruins my ability to relax and do things without constantly being reminded I am in the wrong body.
I was just trying to watch a darned anime, and I can't stop noticing, I am in the wrong body here, I don't look like the character I am trying to identify with. I felt even worse than the ugly duckling unnoticed unpopular girl in the show, because at the end of the day, ugly as she is, unnoticed as she is, unpopular as she is, she doesn't have to go through the day in the wrong body. I had to turn off the show and go to bed, as it was depressing me too much thinking about it.

I don't think it is just a small nasty portion of the gay community that is not interested in us and thinks ill of us, I think they are no better than the rest of society as a whole. I likely will never walk past a gay person in a given week, it is because I live in a small town. But I would not be expecting to be treated by them, any better than any of the cliche hetero crowd if in a big city.

I think we of the TG portion of humanity, are on our own, and we merely need a few similar considerations legally speaking when it comes to the homosexual crowd.

I'm actually a bit sad, that I could marry a cis female, and no one would object like they would with two cis females.
Because the refusal to accept me is such, that I am simply even getting considered another female marrying a female in the eyes of so many, and thus not a same sex marriage issue at all to begin with.

I think it kinda' bothers me a little. The part that bothers me is that we are so misunderstood by society and even a lot of the LGB community. A woman attracted to another woman or a man attracted to another man or both attracted to both is sexual preference and is something that is physical that can be pretty much explained. AKA sexual attraction. I know, I'm bi and that is really easy to explain. But a man wanting to be or percieving themselves to be female or a female wanting to be or percieving themselves to be male, well that just adds a lot of questions into the mix that can't be explained especially when it's not for sexual purposes or preferences. Is it psychological? Is it nuerological? Did something go wrong in the womb? Is it something more spiritual in nature? Is questioning your gender more dominant than it seems to be but society just sweeps it under the rug and refuses to aknowledge it? Do we make people aware that they question or have questioned their own gender and that is why we are so shunned in society? Anyway I think until society really looks seriously into what makes a person transgendered, we're pretty much at a dead end. Or unless there become too many of us to ignore.

I think some peopleare severely overlooking the major benefits of having lgbt organizations fight on our behalf.  Whether we like it or not, in order for us to live normal lives, we need the legal structure and society on our side.  Without certain legal protections or social understanding, we are subject to further discrimination and prevented from living our lives.  Organizations like the HRC may focus on the lgb community, but they haven't forgotten us.  They lobby on our behalf and hire political consultancy firms and canvassing organizations to spread pro transgender legislation and educate the public.  The people who do this kind of work really do put in an amazing amount of time and effort.  You may not see the effects of it directly, but there is a reason why we are becoming more and more accepted.  If we separated from the lgbt community, we would have less funding and volunteer initiatives on our side.  The HRC is one of many of these groups that do this kind of work.  We need the LGBT community for political and social purposes. 

Besides the political aspect, think about other things like local organizations and support groups.  Many lgbt centers offer support for transgender people to some degree (therapy, support groups, meet ups, hrt services, and/or general aid). If we separate, that could put those operations in risk.  Think about it, how much funding does your local transgender support group get?  Do you think they would be able to rent a building for these meetings instead of getting a free meeting space at an lgbt center?  While not all of them meet up in such places, many happen to do so.  If your lgbt center helps with informed consent, do you think they would they continue doing so if the trans community broke off?  Would the trans community be able to develop stand alone centers for informed consent and pay for the financial aspects on its own?  By separating, we put our own support structures in further jeopardy.  The collective funding for lgbt initiatives allows us to have access to these important services.   

It may get annoying that people can't distinguish sexuality from gender, but that isn't the fault of the lgbt community.  That's the fault of ignorance which the community has been fighting against for years.  They do much more good than harm and we should all be thankful that such organizations to fight on our behalf.  I hope some will try to see it from this perspective and realize why collective action is stronger than a solitary force. 

I've really gotten to where I don't give a rat's rear about it. I make my own way in a place with no protections for our sort and I think I'm doing pretty good at it. But I have been lucky enough in how I am able to present and the kind of people I work for that primarily cares if I can do the job or not.

Quote from: marsh monster on September 05, 2013, 12:51:53 PM
I've really gotten to where I don't give a rat's rear about it. I make my own way in a place with no protections for our sort and I think I'm doing pretty good at it. But I have been lucky enough in how I am able to present and the kind of people I work for that primarily cares if I can do the job or not.

While it's great that you are in a good position, remember that there are many in a similar situation that don't have the same luck.  It's okay if it doesn't benefit you one way or the other, but we should remind ourselves that it CAN help others.  I myself live in New York, so I have legal protections (in my area) and am fortunate to exist around socially liberal people; however, I know there are people who aren't so fortunate and can find themselves in a discriminatory situation.  Plus, it's not all about jobs.  I'd like to have a better educated public.  One of the benefits to having a large lgbt community in NY is that people generally understand us better or at the very least don't hate/fear us in the same volume they would in some other place.   We can exist and have some form of respect from society (even though there are still issues to be worked out). I think a good portion of that can be attributed to the lgbt community and it's visible presence.

Quote from: learningtolive on September 05, 2013, 01:18:26 PM
While it's great that you are in a good position, remember that there are many in a similar situation that don't have the same luck.  It's okay if it doesn't benefit you one way or the other, but we should remind ourselves that it CAN help others.  I myself live in New York, so I have legal protections (in my area) and am fortunate to exist around socially liberal people; however, I know there are people who aren't so fortunate and can find themselves in a discriminatory situation.  Plus, it's not all about jobs.  I'd like to have a better educated public.  One of the benefits to having a large lgbt community in NY is that people generally understand us better or at the very least don't hate/fear us in the same volume they would in some other place.   We can exist and have some form of respect from society (even though there are still issues to be worked out). I think a good portion of that can be attributed to the lgbt community and it's visible presence.

Most people know I'm trans and I work in a very public job, so I'm sure there are a number of people that have found out that we aren't so bad and can be nice and pleasant and not scare their kids. I'm not super passable by any means, so I don't feel I can claim much in that regard as much of an advantage.

I will say that I've had some comments in the past about how they were surprised that I was so nice as they've had the impression that we were bitter type people in general.

I tried to get involved in the local lgbt community through pflag, but to be honest, the regular misgendering from people(lgbt) that did not know me prior to transition got to me, so I stopped associating with them.

I have a very good TS girl friend whose biggest detractors are gay men, outing her if they even have a clue that she might be trans. I haven't had any real dealings with the gay community, because I simply live as a woman and that's all I've ever wanted to be. I've heard lots of stories about gay men looking down on the trans community, and if I actually heard a gay man say something I think I'd have to say something. My last relative found out I'm transsexual a week ago, and she asked me, "So, are you gay now?" I told her, "No Pat, I'm a straight, heterosexual woman, just like you." She acted like she understood, but I doubt it.

My mom always pushes me to be more involved and "close" to the community (LGBT) because she thinks we are all one happy family. I honestly don't have any desire to. I have a few GLB friends and they are all super cool with me but I know that someone having a GLB status doesn't always mean they are going to be friendly.

Quote from: princessemma on September 02, 2013, 06:40:23 PM
Sometimes and a lot of times people put transexual and gay/lesbian in the same container. For example when i search transgender community in my country i always found LGBT community not just T community. it bothers me a lot because it is a very different thing. But what about you guys?

LGB is sexual orientation, T means something different to everyone.  For years I sought to have those who believed in me as a male accept me as female but the harder I tried,the less accepted I felt.  What I didn't realize was that I was throwing a contradiction in their face.  Women don't seek to be accepted as women and they certainly don't turn it into a conversation or a mantra or a political movement.

I found as someone who transitioned that the only way I could truly feel accepted as a female was to experience being female the same way that other females have experienced for themselves, having been accepted as female since the dawn of time, like any other female.  The moment I had a story to tell or a secret to share was the moment I stopped being accepted as a female.

I assume that the Political T helps some people but to my knowledge I have never benefited from it myself.  I have worked in jobs where if it had been known that I transitioned, I might have been killed and rumors made my life stressful and a nightmare, causing me so much stress and worry that I would throw up as soon as I started driving home.  It was a stress thing for those who cannot relate.

Why did I continue working in a situation like that?  Well I didn't want to loose my home and end up being victimized in the streets.  In part it is a testimony as to how important it is to me to just be female.  Perhaps I could never get a nice job where "my kind" was protected but even if I could it would kill me a little each day.  That is how I feel when I am around non trans men and women who think they know "a secret" about me, like I am dying, even around family members.

All I ever wanted was to be accepted as female and when that happens I feel healthy, when it is not happening I feel like my life is all wrong and it can be quite overwhelming.  I feel like a joke for other people to laugh at and talk about behind my back.  People have been raising trans awareness for some time now which has made my life quite difficult.  Maybe it helps some people who are early in transition, maybe some people enjoy being known as trans.  I don't know.

What I do know is that by including ourselves in the GLBT we are communicating to people that we like to have sex and that we like to have sex as [insert preferred gender].  It sends a strange sexual-ized message to people and no one seems to eat that message up more than GLBs.

People don't understand you as you are, they understand you as they are.  Best to avoid being the subject of "understanding" in my opinion.  Best to avoid being a subject of conversation when it comes to gender, unless you don't mind the attention.  In a perfect world I would just be female and not a political movement.  In short it bothers me when people don't experience me as me, what people do with transsexual and gay/lesbian is up to them, I'm just me and that in fact is what my transition was all about in the first place.

Quote from: Kate G on September 05, 2013, 11:31:49 PM

LGB is sexual orientation, T means something different to everyone.  For years I sought to have those who believed in me as a male accept me as female but the harder I tried,the less accepted I felt.  What I didn't realize was that I was throwing a contradiction in their face.  Women don't seek to be accepted as women and they certainly don't turn it into a conversation or a mantra or a political movement.

I found as someone who transitioned that the only way I could truly feel accepted as a female was to experience being female the same way that other females have experienced for themselves, having been accepted as female since the dawn of time, like any other female.  The moment I had a story to tell or a secret to share was the moment I stopped being accepted as a female.

I assume that the Political T helps some people but to my knowledge I have never benefited from it myself.  I have worked in jobs where if it had been known that I transitioned, I might have been killed and rumors made my life stressful and a nightmare, causing me so much stress and worry that I would throw up as soon as I started driving home.  It was a stress thing for those who cannot relate.

Why did I continue working in a situation like that?  Well I didn't want to loose my home and end up being victimized in the streets.  In part it is a testimony as to how important it is to me to just be female.  Perhaps I could never get a nice job where "my kind" was protected but even if I could it would kill me a little each day.  That is how I feel when I am around non trans men and women who think they know "a secret" about me, like I am dying, even around family members.

All I ever wanted was to be accepted as female and when that happens I feel healthy, when it is not happening I feel like my life is all wrong and it can be quite overwhelming.  I feel like a joke for other people to laugh at and talk about behind my back.  People have been raising trans awareness for some time now which has made my life quite difficult.  Maybe it helps some people who are early in transition, maybe some people enjoy being known as trans.  I don't know.

What I do know is that by including ourselves in the GLBT we are communicating to people that we like to have sex and that we like to have sex as [insert preferred gender].  It sends a strange sexual-ized message to people and no one seems to eat that message up more than GLBs.

People don't understand you as you are, they understand you as they are.  Best to avoid being the subject of "understanding" in my opinion.  Best to avoid being a subject of conversation when it comes to gender, unless you don't mind the attention.  In a perfect world I would just be female and not a political movement.  In short it bothers me when people don't experience me as me, what people do with transsexual and gay/lesbian is up to them, I'm just me and that in fact is what my transition was all about in the first place.

What Kate said.

I am not homophobic, but really, I don't want my problems to be a rallying cry for them, and I would rather not be associated with their objectives.

I don't like how everyone associates me with persons of a sexual preference.

Because my problem is not about sexual preference.

I'd rather have no damn laws at all, and no connection at all with persons of sexual preference.

I'd rather be stuck taking a pee in the men's room dressed like a woman feeling like a woman, and forced to pee next to a man wondering WTF? next to me. I mean, I can always just laugh and say, 'lost a bet' we both laugh and I go about my day and not give a damn that I just took a pee next to a man that thinks I am a man that lost a bet.

My being a woman, is really, in the end, only something I need family and friends to understand. You know, I don't really care if strangers understand me. Yeah, I realize my attitude might cause some trouble for some people that might need society to cut them some slack at places like work. I'd rather be forced to keep looking for work till I found an employer that wasn't a jerk. They do exist eh. Employers that are jerks by nature, will be jerks eventually.

I will vote in the positive for a LGB requirement, because I don't hate them. But really, their problems are also THEIR problems

Quote from: Kate G on September 05, 2013, 11:31:49 PM

LGB is sexual orientation, T means something different to everyone.  For years I sought to have those who believed in me as a male accept me as female but the harder I tried,the less accepted I felt.  What I didn't realize was that I was throwing a contradiction in their face.  Women don't seek to be accepted as women and they certainly don't turn it into a conversation or a mantra or a political movement.

I found as someone who transitioned that the only way I could truly feel accepted as a female was to experience being female the same way that other females have experienced for themselves, having been accepted as female since the dawn of time, like any other female.  The moment I had a story to tell or a secret to share was the moment I stopped being accepted as a female.

I assume that the Political T helps some people but to my knowledge I have never benefited from it myself.  I have worked in jobs where if it had been known that I transitioned, I might have been killed and rumors made my life stressful and a nightmare, causing me so much stress and worry that I would throw up as soon as I started driving home.  It was a stress thing for those who cannot relate.

Why did I continue working in a situation like that?  Well I didn't want to loose my home and end up being victimized in the streets.  In part it is a testimony as to how important it is to me to just be female.  Perhaps I could never get a nice job where "my kind" was protected but even if I could it would kill me a little each day.  That is how I feel when I am around non trans men and women who think they know "a secret" about me, like I am dying, even around family members.

All I ever wanted was to be accepted as female and when that happens I feel healthy, when it is not happening I feel like my life is all wrong and it can be quite overwhelming.  I feel like a joke for other people to laugh at and talk about behind my back.  People have been raising trans awareness for some time now which has made my life quite difficult.  Maybe it helps some people who are early in transition, maybe some people enjoy being known as trans.  I don't know.

What I do know is that by including ourselves in the GLBT we are communicating to people that we like to have sex and that we like to have sex as [insert preferred gender].  It sends a strange sexual-ized message to people and no one seems to eat that message up more than GLBs.

People don't understand you as you are, they understand you as they are.  Best to avoid being the subject of "understanding" in my opinion.  Best to avoid being a subject of conversation when it comes to gender, unless you don't mind the attention.  In a perfect world I would just be female and not a political movement.  In short it bothers me when people don't experience me as me, what people do with transsexual and gay/lesbian is up to them, I'm just me and that in fact is what my transition was all about in the first place.

Great post Kate! Thank you :)

I think I have contributed all I have to give in the topic, I am going to step out while I can :)

I am very grateful to the LGB community for including T.

The local Gay Lesbian Organization freely provides a meeting place for the transgender support group.  My city is currently considering a non-discrimination ordinance that includes T.  This would not happen without the influence and support of the G/L community.

I envy gays and lesbians because their life seems much simpler than my transsexual life.  We are indeed the "weak sisters" and I, for one, am grateful for their support.

I ask you this: What other group would support and defend us?

Randi

I like the idea of being able to "latch onto" a movement like LGB. I think at one point, being trans was being gay by default as far as I was concerned. In fact, for the longest time I thought I might have been gay because of my transgendered situation. So if our plight becomes more mainstream and there's more focus and understanding that comes with it, I'm all for it.

We are more than a few labels but please remember folks that many of us do self identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or queer.  Not only do we need allies but these are forums where we can continue to break down stereotypes and demonstrate how integrated we really are.  We transgender are a tiny minority and building support networks is critical for our personal growth and community understanding.  Discrimination and prejudice can come from anywhere, even within the transgender world.

Many gay men have battled the effeminate sissy crap in their lives too.  It is work but worth it when people recognize our common struggles.  People in the GLBTQ world "get it" about orientation being distinct from gender identity.  Who we love is not necessarily who we are.  A butch lesbian may be completely comfortable being a ciswoman or not.  Men who love men still don't automatically turn one another into the female.  These are stereotypes from the straight and binary world that we can address together.  Many national and international LGBTQ groups have clearly worked on our behalf.

Yes, LGBQ people can still misunderstand us and have some issues that are not at the top of our list.  Bathroom safety is not likely at the top of their list.

Take a deep breath and let's all hold hands again ;)

There are simple facts we all need to remember.

According to a metastudy (http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/) by the Williams Institute at UCLA, released in 2011, the GLBT community is represented as a proportion of the general population:

1.8% - bisexual
1.7% - gay
1.7% - lesbian
0.3% - transsexual

The GLB population is more than 10-times larger than the T population.  We are such a small group, that we might otherwise be overlooked, if we did not have allies.

And we should note that there exists overlap in our greater community in how we self-identify.  Many of us are both T and some other identity instead of "straight".  Indeed, I personally try to separate sexual orientation from gender identity as much as possible.

Also, we must remember that within any group, you are going to have the entire spectrum of bigotry and stupidity.  Gay people are going to be ill-informed about trans issues, and trans people are going to harbor their own prejudices about the GLB community.

What is important, I believe, is that we keep talking; that we work out the differences for the common good; and ignore the luddites and neanderthals to the greatest extent possible.  If I shunned every member of every group that ever spoke poorly of me, I might as well sit alone on top of a mountain, contemplating my navel.

Even if we are the red-headed stepchildren in the human rights movement, it does not mean we can't be leaders in educating the other 96% of the population about the importance of tolerance.

I'm perfectly happy if T is dropped from LGB. The reason, where does it end? QI has been added recently at times. This means I alone conform to two of the included letters (T and I). We might as well just list the entire alphabet. The triad was about liberation for one's sexual preferences. This muddying antagonises a worrying number of people in the gay community who IMO might otherwise be more friendly or tolerant or whatever... that includes a lot of lesbian feminists, BTW, who may not like us but would probably not exactly hate us if we weren't somehow present in their 'affairs'. Political expediency is neutered if there's tons of in-fighting, IMO.

I'm not overly bothered one way or another, to be clear. But I'd be okay with it not there.

Speaking as someone who is labeled homosexual by a lot of sources...

Yesterday I attended a seminar about Intergenerational Issues and LGBT People at the Oxford Institute of Population Ageing.  With so many long words this is obviously going to be an ivory tower sort of seminar.  I raised an objection to the first speaker referring to "A community defined by their sexual activity".  That is how many gay men see themselves, and part of the reason trans people do not fit with the gay activists.

I voted yes. While sexual orientation and gender identity are very different, I don't think we would have as many rights today as we do if it wasn't for the LGB community.  Often times when new anti-gay discrimination laws are passed, they include protections for us too.

Considering that we are a much smaller group of people than the LGBs, I think it's good that we have their coattails to ride on to give our fight for rights more momentum.

Amy

Well, I'm kinda prejudiced in a favour of our inclusion... because I'm both G & T. Which is handy, because I could use a stiff drink. ;)

I discussed this with one of our MtF sisters a few months ago and we agreed that T absolutely belongs as part of the LGB community, because most of us have to cross sexuality label boundaries as we transition. We are generally still attracted to the same people we always were, but the labels for that attraction change as we transition. As an example, I've gone from being labelled as straight to being labelled as gay because I've always been attracted to men. Others have always been attracted to women and so go from being labelled as lesbian to being labelled as straight. But it isn't just the labels we have to deal with; it's the identity too.

So a lot of us experience L or G (and indeed, B/P) issues on top of our trans* issues. Of course we belong.

I think it's good for us to be included in LGBT, but I wish the T was more included. It's kind of frustrating when something claims to be LGBT when they are really only referring to LGB. I also feel kind of left behind. I mean, it's great that there have been so many strides in LGB rights, but I'm still waiting for bill C-279.
In short, I think it's good for us to be included, but I want the T to be less silent.

While I'm bisexual and trans, I've experienced more severe discrimination and violence from within the LGB community due to my trans status as opposed to outside it. When straight cis people are more understanding and respectful of you as a person than people who are supposedly supposed to be part of your community, it becomes quite...How should I put this? Irritating? No, I'd say it's more that it sours the thought of being associated with them for *that* aspect of my existence.

I participate with LGB folks for issues of sexuality, etc, but never my gender. I feel that lumping in gender identity and sexuality together can be problematic, especially considering how many don't even know what the T stands for and ignore trans issues in favor of LGB ones. Not to say that these aren't important, because they certainly are, but it becomes grating to be thrown in under the label when your rights and safety do not matter to the majority of the community.

Big name equal rights groups also have long histories of transphobia and shoving transgender members of the community under the bus, and while some may seem apologetic to avoid controversy, the fact is that many do not change their ways and continue to silence trans people who speak up against them. These are the main reasons I have such disdain for having the T with LGB, despite technically being "both", and often prefer to think of each community's issues separately.

The thing that convinced me that the T should be there is this: that really the reason for discrimination against gay people has to do with gender presentation not sex. In fact people may not even knwo the sexual practices of someone as they are private. What they know about is gender presentation, and that's practically it. Many gays have a gender presentation that is not the same as other people and the same goes for trans people. They may not really know this but they need us. And we are a larger group if they are included, though it does irk me that in some areas there is discrimination, by gays against trans. And I have seen some nasty language.

--Jay

Quote from: Edge on September 11, 2013, 11:27:01 AM
I think it's good for us to be included in LGBT, but I wish the T was more included. It's kind of frustrating when something claims to be LGBT when they are really only referring to LGB. I also feel kind of left behind. I mean, it's great that there have been so many strides in LGB rights, but I'm still waiting for bill C-279.
In short, I think it's good for us to be included, but I want the T to be less silent.

Mark my words. I predict the progress curve for trans acceptance and rights will be even sharper than the LGB curve, which has been pretty sharp. I've been stunned at how far we've gotten by this stage of my life. As a young person, I NEVER expected to see acceptance of gay marriages by governments in my own lifetime. I think there are clear parallels and that people are primed now to receive education about trans issues. Like aleon515 said, the taboo stems from a similar place about fitting into strict gender expectations.

I intend to keep working on those LGBs who act like we're all done now and we can rest. Until we're all free, none of us are free.

BTW, the reason I've gotten to where I am today and am as motivated as I am to keep learning about trans issues is because I discovered there were gay FTMs. I was reticent at first. I had typical discomfort about the whole thing, but as I got to know about real people and they shared their stories, I began to be able to relate. It was only a matter of time before I realized these guys are so much like me when I was their age. I thought "these are my people", you know? Because they were G and also T, they could function as a sort of ambassador. I learned a lot from them and they inspired me to want to learn more. And that's just one ally's story. There have to be a lot more.

I said yes because when trans people face discrimination it's in a way similar to LGB people, and the same can be said of LGB people to trans people. As an example: in an area where you have non-discrimination for LGB people, but not trans people a person who presents their gender in a way that doesn't fit completely can be fired. So a feminine man, or a masculine woman can be fired in a way that's similar to a trans person.

Also, the split between LGB and the T didn't happen until the 70s. Trans people were the heart and soul of the LGBT civil rights movement at the start.

I think we can benefit from being put in the LGB. Also I know several people who first thought they were lesbian or gay and then realised they were transgender often because of the information they received in their LGBT group so I think it helps some people figure themselves out.

As a woman who transitioned I feel more comfortable being represented by women than by lesbians, gays and bisexuals.  I feel very good about inclusion with other women.  Women tend to understand my needs whether they realize it or not whereas inclusion in the GLB tends to be done for no other reason than, "We need representation so we gotta take whatever we can get."  Also by including myself in with other women for support I don't minoritize myself and people are better able to relate to me and understand me for who I am.

Also the phrase, "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."  Comes to mind.  Even back when I was first transitioning and couldn't pass as female to save my life it was a whole lot easier to just go into a women's clothing store and try on clothes than it was to ask if it was okay for me to try on clothes because I was trans.  I used women's bathrooms before I ever dreamed of being able to pass as female and no one ever said a single word to me but if I had told everyone I was trans and if I had asked someone if it was okay for me to use the women's bathrooms you can bet that someone would have told me no.  Oh and I did make the mistake of asking once if it was okay for me to try on clothes, they had to wait until there was an empty booth on either side of me, it was the only time I was ever discriminated against in that way and it was my fault because by asking permission I discriminated against myself.

As long as we discriminate against ourselves and minoritize ourselves others will follow our example (in my humble opinion).

i hate it . especially when i tell someone im seeing someone and they ask if he is gay..

I always wanted to be a gay man. Turns out, I'm trans so that I get to be a gay man. Since I'm gay, why shouldn't I be included in the community?

Tbh I don't get the feeling the "LGBT" community give a damn about us. How many times have we heard something to do with homosexual couples is a "great victory for LGBT rights". Is it?! Pretty much all the so called "LGBT" gains rarely affect us.

Quote from: Dreams2014 on September 11, 2013, 02:37:56 PM
Tbh I don't get the feeling the "LGBT" community give a damn about us. How many times have we heard something to do with homosexual couples is a "great victory for LGBT rights". Is it?! Pretty much all the so called "LGBT" gains rarely affect us.

I disagree, while not all gains affect us, many do or they help further open doors to allow us to make it affect.us. Such as: same-sex marriage, it allows a transguy who hasn't changed his markers to marry his female girlfriend. Then, allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military has begun to open up the discussion to allow trans people to serve--we wouldn't be discussing trans service members if Dont Ask, Don't Tell wasn't repealed.

If people think the LGB community does not involves us enough, that just means trans people have to work harder than we currently are to be heard. If anyone has an issue, start a trans activist group to help change things you have an issue with. It's easy to just wait for others to make changes and then complain when the change doesn't occur.

i don't think it should be included. i have met transphobic gay people and homophobic trans people. being gay isn't a medical condition, and being trans is.

It doesn't matter to me either way really. If I were to choose I'd say I would rather Transgender be stand alone. I think we'd make better strides with Rights and insurance coverage for SRS/HRT if this were solely seen as a medical condition rather than an identity (people see identity as choice) riding on the coattails of GLB people.

My biggest problem is that when people throw around "LGBT" they pretty much 90% of the time mean homosexuals. Why bother saying it if you're only referring to one group of people?! It's irritating.

I said no because, Gender idenity and sexual orientation are two different things, I think if they were seperated I would not be confused with or looked at as a stud lesbian which is the African American version of a butch lesbian, People think its the same because were grouped together, Their are alot of people who don't even know transgenders, If that's the case intersexed conditions should be put in their to, This is why I don't get acceptence I understand the discrimination thing but come on know people with aids or even cancer get discriminated against should they be put in their to, No because neither one of thoes things have anything to do with sexual orientation,  And homosexuals don't even get me honestly more straight people understand me then homosexuals I hav been discrimated against by homosexuals, And why you think they would be more accepting their not their about the same so I have to disagree, We shouldn't be grouped together

This is a multi level question for me, Right now I could not pass as female full time, just starting to have some curves and have always had a fem style or to some degree actions that are not very masculine, I am transitioning my body into the woman that my my mind and soul have always been no mater how long or hard i tried to hide it. By no means gay nor have much desire for sex in my current state of growth. not so sure I will feel that way once I pass full time and get set up for srs. the only support group I have been able to find here in the bellingham area is lgbt at least our minority status gives us something in common. I do not think I would like to called gay any more than they would like to be called out as transitioning and we all know the ones who do not know they have a female side hate to be called homophobic (LOL). I just dont see how I can much care about what others feel about or see in me when how I get grouped depends on thier level of ignorance, My choice is very limited to live half a life or allow myself to grow regardless of what ever group I get asigned to by people who dont know me or give a crap about what I am going through today and for last 50 years.
Sorry not quite on topic but felt like rambling on a bit today, my therapist kind of left me feeling empty yesterday so i am a bit scatter brained today

jerri

Quote from: Crookedjaw on September 11, 2013, 02:52:13 PM
i don't think it should be included. i have met transphobic gay people and homophobic trans people. being gay isn't a medical condition, and being trans is.

That is so true!

Quote from: Brandon on September 11, 2013, 03:08:34 PM

That is so true!

Yeah it does't help when homosexual people treat trans people as the aunt/uncle they don't want to see at Christmas or Thanksgiving, but put up with them because they're family.

Quote from: Dreams2014 on September 11, 2013, 03:12:17 PM
Yeah it does't help when homosexual people treat trans people as the aunt/uncle they don't want to see at Christmas or Thanksgiving, but put up with them because they're family.

Right you really wanna know how many femn lesbians have asked me why I'm trans or want to be a guy, Why can't you dress like a girl, I'm sorry to say it but who you think will be accepting is always the ones who aren't and I'm a living example of that

Quote from: Brandon on September 11, 2013, 03:16:51 PM
Right you really wanna know how many femn lesbians have asked me why I'm trans or want to be a guy, Why can't you dress like a girl, I'm sorry to say it but who you think will be accepting is always the ones who aren't and I'm a living example of that

Yeah it's sad. They're supposed to be our closest allies and more often than not, they aren't. This is why we need to stop dancing around and realize we don't belong under their umbrella.

Brandon, intersex is in there, I think the full thing is: LGBTQI (I think there's actually a few more letters there, but I get lost).

There are common interests between us, but it's more of the medias fault when they just say LGBT without thinking on whether the article actually includes everyone.

I think no matter what, preT trans guy will get confused with butch lesbians, because visually, there's little ways to tell the difference. You have to educate people you meet. Also, there's still some debate on whether being trans is a medical condition. Also, since homosexuals don't choose to be gay, and I've heard that their may be something in the brain that determines sexual orientation, couldn't being gay be a "medical condition" as well?

If people do not know enough about transgender people, it's not the fault of homosexuals. It's up to us to make sure we properly educate the public (including homosexuals). If everyone was bettereducated there'd be less problems.

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 11, 2013, 03:22:06 PM
Brandon, intersex is in there, I think the full thing is: LGBTQI (I think there's actually a few more letters there, but I get lost).

There are common interests between us, but it's more of the medias fault when they just say LGBT without thinking on whether the article actually includes everyone.

I think no matter what, preT trans guy will get confused with butch lesbians, because visually, there's little ways to tell the difference. You have to educate people you meet. Also, there's still some debate on whether being trans is a medical condition. Also, since homosexuals don't choose to be gay, and I've heard that their may be something in the brain that determines sexual orientation, couldn't being gay be a "medical condition" as well?

If people do not know enough about transgender people, it's not the fault of homosexuals. It's up to us to make sure we properly ed
ucate the public (including homosexuals). If everyone was bettereducated there'd be less problems.

No trust me I have tried to educate people even gay people, I wouldn't say that being gay is a medicl condition only because I've numerous gay people say he don't want to be gay anymore, And again how about we put aids and camcer in teir because they face discrimination and have a medical condition, I still disagree

Quote from: Dreams2014 on September 11, 2013, 03:20:49 PM
Yeah it's sad. They're supposed to be our closest allies and more often than not, they aren't. This is why we need to stop dancing around and realize we don't belong under their umbrella.

Exactly, And when I hear about gay rights I don't ever hear anything about transgenders, And transgenders want to be seen as men and women to the straight ones but still want to be under their umbrella were we don't belong

Quote from: LearnedHand on September 11, 2013, 03:22:06 PM
Brandon, intersex is in there, I think the full thing is: LGBTQI (I think there's actually a few more letters there, but I get lost).

There are common interests between us, but it's more of the medias fault when they just say LGBT without thinking on whether the article actually includes everyone.

I think no matter what, preT trans guy will get confused with butch lesbians, because visually, there's little ways to tell the difference. You have to educate people you meet. Also, there's still some debate on whether being trans is a medical condition. Also, since homosexuals don't choose to be gay, and I've heard that their may be something in the brain that determines sexual orientation, couldn't being gay be a "medical condition" as well?

If people do not know enough about transgender people, it's not the fault of homosexuals. It's up to us to make sure we properly educate the public (including homosexuals). If everyone was bettereducated there'd be less problems.

there really shouldn't be any debate. since we get surgery and take medication, it's a medical condition. members of the lgb community don't take medication as a result of being lgb!

I don't think the T should part of LGBT. At the end of the day, when your not the sex you use to be, why would you want people to know that you use to be male or female?

I will class myself as straight. Being part of LGB, means people are trying to say we are not straight. Being LGB has nothing to do with gender.

But I am gay who wants to be a female, that will then make me straight as I will want a boyfriend.

Quote from: Crookedjaw on September 11, 2013, 03:32:08 PM
there really shouldn't be any debate. since we get surgery and take medication, it's a medical condition. members of the lgb community don't take medication as a result of being lgb!

Thank you!

And by you guys wanting to be a part of th lgb your stopping alot straight transguys like me, And alot of straight transgirls from being seen as straight that's one of the few reasons people don't see me as male

Quote from: androidnick on September 11, 2013, 03:59:55 PM
That is a big assumption my friend. One that shouldn't be made. You are blaming one group for another group's ignorance. No one is preventing anyone from your friends or family seeing you as male. Unfortunately as it has been said before if you aren't on T then people will just assume you are a butch lesbian. Especially if you don't explain. And if you do explain and they still refuse to see things then that is on them. Not anyone else

No I pass just fine no one at my school really knows whats between my legs, I'm saying your making it harder for people to take us seriously

I'm guessing everyone here has seen the music video or heard the song "same love"?

They all seem to be hovering around that and going on about equality for all. Well we need equality too. Yet we're still regularly forgotten.

And you want more proof, My sister and a couple of my friends said it's in the same catergory so their is no difference they are the same, That is why people don't get me believe it or not lot of pople think being trans is the same as being gay that's another reason I don't get accepted, And that's real talk, And if we were seperated I also wouldn't get so much ->-bleeped-<- from other Christians

Quote from: androidnick on September 11, 2013, 04:09:51 PM
Dude how am I or anyone else on this forum making it hard? People with common sense realize being trans isn't a choice. The people that are ignorant will bash us regardless if LGB and T weren't together. You are blaming others for your problems and sorry but that just isn't right.

Again dude, If we were seperated more people would take us seriously, Imma be the bigger man I'm not gonna argue with you

Quote from: Brandon on September 11, 2013, 03:41:47 PM
And by you guys wanting to be a part of th lgb your stopping alot straight transguys like me, And alot of straight transgirls from being seen as straight that's one of the few reasons people don't see me as male

I have to disagree with this. Once you medically transition you won't encounter that problem. People are visual, that's just the way it is. As someone else stated, it's almost impossible pre medical transition to not be seen as a butch lesbian. Once you're at the point where you can be stealth (if you so choose) then that won't occur. There are strictly straight girls who will have a relationship with a transman post transition but not pre transition. Then there's the whole "pre bottom surgery" or non op bottom surgery to contend with.

Quote from: Dreams2014 on September 11, 2013, 04:09:42 PM
Well we need equality too. Yet we're still regularly forgotten.

Some of that is our own fault as a community (I'm guilty of this as well) because we go stealth. Being under the radar is what the majority of us want but that's a double edged sword because it decreases visibility for our community. The less visibility the less understanding will take place.

Quote from: Brandon on September 11, 2013, 04:14:47 PM

Imma be the bigger man I'm not gonna argue with you

Before you get started just stop. Nobody is arguing here. Everyone is stating their opinions. Now lets continue this discussion as adults.

Quote from: Si on September 11, 2013, 04:19:30 PM
I have to disagree with this. Once you medically transition you won't encounter that problem. People are visual, that's just the way it is. As someone else stated, it's almost impossible pre medical transition to not be seen as a butch lesbian. Once you're at the point where you can be stealth (if you so choose) then that won't occur. There are strictly straight girls who will have a relationship with a transman post transition but not pre transition. Then there's the whole "pre bottom surgery" or non op bottom surgery to contend with.

Some of that is our own fault as a community (I'm guilty of this as well) because we go stealth. Being under the radar is what the majority of us want but that's a double edged sword because it decreases visibility for our community. The less visibility the less understanding will take place.

Before you get started just stop. Nobody is arguing here. Everyone is stating their opinions. Now lets continue this discussion as adults.

I disagree with that onl because I pass it's not difficult for me atleast, Sometimes when I do explain it to people they get it, Other times again, People have told me theirs no difference because were in the same catergory

Quote from: Crookedjaw on September 11, 2013, 03:32:08 PM
there really shouldn't be any debate. since we get surgery and take medication, it's a medical condition. members of the lgb community don't take medication as a result of being lgb!

It is a medical condition, but not for the reason you are stating. Surgery and medication do not mean a medical condition. If so, plastic surgery would be a medical condition, which is certainly not true. Plastic surgery is a medical procedure, but not a condition. A condition is a problem that needs a medical solution as a necessity for the individual's health, I would say.

Transgender feelings are based in biology. Something is different than it was supposed to be in our brains and bodies. It could be a combination of biological things - like genes and brain structure. There have already been tests done. But it could also be related to our experiences. Or maybe, it is a combination of both of those itself.

Our biology is not congruent with our assigned gender - you could even make an argument this is not a medical condition as well.

If a gay gene or whatever they have been researching is found, then the issues are even more similar.

Not all trans people identify with, or as having a medical condition. Also, not all people are interested in medical transition. Being trans includes people of many different types of gender identities. The more specific divide that I think people ask about is that with transgender vs transsexual. There you have the idea, or hierarchy between a person who medically transitions and somebody who does not. For some people, medical transition isn't possible (and thus it's accepted that they will never be X). There's also people who choose to partially medically transition because of the way they feel about their gender which might not be binary. It's all kind of difficult to explain and go through, but we're all kinda mushed together. Sometimes it's good for all of us, sometimes it's bad for all of us, sometimes it's only some of us that are affected.

I personally think being lumped in with LG and B is better than nothing. On it's own, I don't think trans would get the recognition it does. Yes, it is often an afterthought and quite often LGBT is used when the situation only applies to LGB, but an afterthought is better than no thought at all. Without the progress in LGB rights, I very much doubt the T would have as big a standing as it does now. Being associated with LG and B does mean people often think it's to do with sexuality and I find that extremely irritating, but I also know that if being trans was viewed as nothing to do with LG and B, it would be much more of a struggle for acceptance and basic rights.

Quote from: androidnick on September 11, 2013, 04:23:54 PM
I'm getting really sick and tired of good topics being locked because of certain things. Seriously some people need to grow up on this site. I started this thread to get mature opinions and have a civil conversation. But I also think it is very unfair to then blame the gay community for others not being educated.

You misread what I said again no one is blamming homosexuals, Whoever put us in the same catergory in the first place, What I'm saying is when I go out in public no one sees me as butch at all, They always say sir and gentlemen or young man, And my voice isn't that high, But my family knows and because were in the same catergory some of my friends and family believe its the same thing, Its not because I don't pass its bcause they think being gay and trans is the same think and they have even told me, I can have a mature covo,  But to be honst Ive been feeling like Ive been getting double teamed and triple teamed by everyone here

Quote from: Brandon on September 11, 2013, 04:32:07 PM
But to be honst Ive been feeling like Ive been getting double teamed and triple teamed by everyone here

The people that respond to you are just disagreeing with you. It is not personal.

Quote from: MaximmusFlavius on September 11, 2013, 04:31:55 PM
I personally think being lumped in with LG and B is better than nothing. On it's own, I don't think trans would get the recognition it does. Yes, it is often an afterthought and quite often LGBT is used when the situation only applies to LGB, but an afterthought is better than no thought at all. Without the progress in LGB rights, I very much doubt the T would have as big a standing as it does now. Being associated with LG and B does mean people often think it's to do with sexuality and I find that extremely irritating, but I also know that if being trans was viewed as nothing to do with LG and B, it would be much more of a struggle for acceptance and basic rights.

Then how do you explain intersex people? Were more like hem but everyone knows they exist

Quote from: spacerace on September 11, 2013, 04:34:40 PM
The people that respond to you are just disagreeing with you. It is not personal.

No on other threads as well

Here is the deal folks.  Topics like this generally break down into arguments.  Also, separatism is contrary to the support function of the site.  The topic is currently being discussed among moderators.

We will get back with a decision in a bit.

BtW, this is not strictly an FtM topic.  There was a similar topic in MtF Talk that I have moved to Transgender Talk.

Here it is, and it is still open, for the time being:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,148022.0.html

Quote from: MaryXYX on September 11, 2013, 11:06:56 AM
"A community defined by their sexual activity".
That is how many gay men see themselves, and part of the reason trans people do not fit with the gay activists.

I feel like I have to debunk this notion a lot. Gay marriage keeps turning into a discussion about sex. The issues that LGB folks face are rarely about sex. OTHER people are obsessed with our sex lives, and THAT is actually the problem. Gay marriage is not about sex. All bans against homosexual activity were lifted at the Supreme Court level years ago. Gay people can have sex. That's not a problem. People making marriage about sex do so in order to discriminate against gay people. Marriage is about all the other stuph--tax discrimination, hospital visitation, wills, etc. Getting discriminated against is a problem because OTHER people are obsessed with what we might be doing sexually, or as someone pointed out in another thread, possibly because a lot of LGBs have cross-gender mannerisms or styles--the same sorts of things that trans people get discriminated against for. Being subject to violence is OTHER people obssessing with that tiny portion of our lives that's about sex.

In short, the problems we face are not about sex at all. Sex is generally a non-issue. People want to make it about sex, but it's not.

Merged similar topics.  Unlocked.

Please no bashing other groups.

Discuss responsibly

I don't bother having GLBT labeled together. I don't see it as "fight for sexual rights + transgenders.
I see it more as; "fight for being who your are and loving who you love no matter there gender or sex" which aply to both gay and trans people.
-
in my GLBT comunety I think the trans people are pretty outstanding and work well with the others members so I havent had any problems theres.

it dose bother me outside when people forget the T whatever its on a ignorant gay bar or for a demonstrating for russia and they only mention how it to harm gay people. yes usunally the gay western guys are the main attention, then the lesbian the bisexual and on the bottom transgenders. Many people also somehow use it to get suport. since they know more people suport gay people than trans people they somethimes only say gay and left out trans, it makes it seam more suportive and it bothers me alot.
-
yet I dont think its a reason for us not to work together, think about it, its only very recently gay people got this right they got today, simple going 30 years ago the world where a whole diffrent place to be homosexual. also, even today in diffrent areas countrys and way of living we still have diffrent stuggles who put us in diffrent positions. I dont think the whole "your diffrent than me so why should I be compared to you" really gets us anywhere. 

I prefer the acronym GSRM which stands for "gender, sexuality, and romantic minorities". It pretty neatly covers who you love, how you love, and loving yourself. Which is, at the end of the day, what folks have problems with. They don't want us to love ourselves or anyone else.

Unfortunately it's a long ways off from catching up to GLBTQA+.

Quote from: dalebert on September 11, 2013, 05:29:36 PM
I feel like I have to debunk this notion a lot. Gay marriage keeps turning into a discussion about sex. The issues that LGB folks face are rarely about sex. OTHER people are obsessed with our sex lives, and THAT is actually the problem. Gay marriage is not about sex. All bans against homosexual activity were lifted at the Supreme Court level years ago. Gay people can have sex. That's not a problem. People making marriage about sex do so in order to discriminate against gay people. Marriage is about all the other stuph--tax discrimination, hospital visitation, wills, etc. Getting discriminated against is a problem because OTHER people are obsessed with what we might be doing sexually, or as someone pointed out in another thread, possibly because a lot of LGBs have cross-gender mannerisms or styles--the same sorts of things that trans people get discriminated against for. Being subject to violence is OTHER people obssessing with that tiny portion of our lives that's about sex.

In short, the problems we face are not about sex at all. Sex is generally a non-issue. People want to make it about sex, but it's not.

I did challenge the speaker on the "community defined by their sexual activity" description and he said that wasn't his opinion, it was the common perception.  Mind he only said that *after* I challenged him.  As for the rest of your post I entirely agree.  We had Delena Wilkerson of http://www.10thousandcouples.com/ at our church last Sunday and one thing she and her partner said was how much more it meant to them to be married rather than in a civil partnership.  That aspect of marriage is important too.

Quote from: Kate G on September 11, 2013, 01:00:44 PM
As a woman who transitioned I feel more comfortable being represented by women than by lesbians, gays and bisexuals.  I feel very good about inclusion with other women.  Women tend to understand my needs whether they realize it or not whereas inclusion in the GLB tends to be done for no other reason than, "We need representation so we gotta take whatever we can get."  Also by including myself in with other women for support I don't minoritize myself and people are better able to relate to me and understand me for who I am.

I have found this too.  Some women don't accept me, but the majority are either tolerant or actively supportive.  I don't know what the other members of my local lesbian group are thinking, but they treat me in a friendly and inclusive manner.  My local "G(L) and perhaps B" group does seem to be mainly about what the "G"s do though, and the sense I get from them is they have to tolerate me so they can call it an LGBT group.