So a week ago I didn't even know about Yeson Voice Center and now I have an appointment on November 12th. To say the least, I'm extremely excited about the possibility that I'll finally be able to just talk, with no "warming up" to get my voice right, no apprehension about it outing me, and no more feeling that my voice isn't mine. I've been full time for going on 6 years now and I've had FFS, SRS, BA, and the excitement I had for all of those, though they were great, don't compare to the excitement I have for this surgery. I am, however, cautiously optimistic in that I do understand there are still some risks and I appreciate that fact, but hearing the results I've heard I can't help but feel excited that there has finally come around a technique for voice feminization surgery that is actually viable for us women.
Now that I have a date booked, I have a lot of preparation to do. I'm going to try to go without talking as much as I can the week prior to my departure so that I can get into the mindset of not talking, coughing, clearing my throat, etc. I am going to continue to do additional research to find any more information about it (although I think I've read and listened to everything there is about Yeson at this point). I need to tell some key people at work so that they have a clear understanding of the limitations this will put on me and my communication at work for the 1-2 months after surgery.
I'm also going to do as Jennygirl did and document my progress, both from the standpoint of the healing process, as well as the little details I notice throughout the recovery that may help others understand all that you go through. I think I'll just update this same thread as I go along, so it's all contained and easy to follow along.
"Like"
and congrats on getting booked! :D
Yay congrats!
It sounds like you're very well prepared. I did the same thing the week or so leading up to my surgery so I could get used to not talking.
Also get used to drinking water - like a lot of water. It's recommended to avoid caffeine and alcohol after surgery for several months so if you're a coffee drinker you might want to cut it out now so you can get the withdrawal period over with.
You'll love Seoul, such an amazing city. I seriously am considering going back next Spring for a follow-up and with a friend so I can fully experience everything the city has to offer.
Thank you both. I'm super excited after hearing your results :-)
Hi Sarah
Welcome to the club! This will be the crowning touch to your transitioning. You are smart to mentally prepare yourself for not talking ahead of your surgery.
My wife came with me to Seoul and it was nice to have someone talk for me in different situations
but it has been a challenge not talking because I have someone to talk to.
Kathy
I think my mobile phone keyboard words per minute capabilities doubled in the two weeks I was unable to talk :D
Quote from: Jennygirl on September 21, 2013, 06:59:50 PM
I think my mobile phone keyboard words per minute capabilities doubled in the two weeks I was unable to talk :D
Omg, definitely! I'm pretty sure I was breaking 100+ wpm.
Can you please tell me the price for the surgery?
And is it long lasting?
Quote from: Evolving Beauty on September 21, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
Can you please tell me the price for the surgery?
And is it long lasting?
The price is $7,350. And yep, it's permanent.
Wow that's great news Abby! After hearing of Yeson's I'm very eager to book my surgery as my voice (though it isn't that bad) is a pain have to warm up for and the fear and anxiety it presents when talking to others is just getting to me. However my therapist says my voice should be fine but I want to convince her too that this surgery is worth going through as the loss of fear and anxiety is worth the time and money anyday!
Quote from: Paige0000 on September 22, 2013, 02:27:01 AM
Wow that's great news Abby! After hearing of Yeson's I'm very eager to book my surgery as my voice (though it isn't that bad) is a pain have to warm up for and the fear and anxiety it presents when talking to others is just getting to me. However my therapist says my voice should be fine but I want to convince her too that this surgery is worth going through as the loss of fear and anxiety is worth the time and money anyday!
That was my reasoning exactly for choosing this surgery. After several months of voice therapy I had an OK voice (far from great) but it was very forced, tiring, and was basically impossible for me to use in public due to anxiety. My regular therapist agreed that due to the lack of risks with this procedure that it would be worth it for the peace of mind and comfort of not having to worry about my pitch. I am so glad I went for it.
Quote from: abbyt89 on September 22, 2013, 08:30:03 AM
That was my reasoning exactly for choosing this surgery. After several months of voice therapy I had an OK voice (far from great) but it was very forced, tiring, and was basically impossible for me to use in public due to anxiety. My regular therapist agreed that due to the lack of risks with this procedure that it would be worth it for the peace of mind and comfort of not having to worry about my pitch. I am so glad I went for it.
Wow yes, that sounds good but also familiar. I did not do so much voice training but I get the stupid not wanting to us high pitch inpublic thing. Why is that - you have it, Jenny has i, I have it too - why dont we "dare" to use the voice in public if we can do it in private - and after VFS it works out well in public as well, so thats kind of odd.
I feel like I am a bit cheating or having a problem with courage and determination that I would cover up with a surgery if I was to go for this. You know - correcting a mental blockade to do something with an expensive surgery. Hmmm.
Sadly most people I ever talk about voice cringe when I even mention surgery. So I doubt they would be very supportive. Glad that some therapists at least in your case seem to be ok with that, if it is your desire to do it. People keep telling me that I would surely "destroy" my "nice sonorous voice" - go figure - they actually like my low pitch because of some reason. Maybe thats part of why I am not using a higher one regularly.
Quote from: abbyt89 on September 22, 2013, 08:30:03 AM
That was my reasoning exactly for choosing this surgery. After several months of voice therapy I had an OK voice (far from great) but it was very forced, tiring, and was basically impossible for me to use in public due to anxiety. My regular therapist agreed that due to the lack of risks with this procedure that it would be worth it for the peace of mind and comfort of not having to worry about my pitch. I am so glad I went for it.
Hmm I just sent an email to my therapist and it seems shes quite against the idea :(. Here's what she replied.
Hello Paige
Let me make it quite plain. You do not need voice surgery. Your voice is not that low. We can do some skype sessions to teach you with better projection. If you had voice surgery it could be a disaster and you could possibly end up sounding as if you have swollowed helium.
Try the sessions by skype first.
Thanks
TracieI really want to convince her this is worth it for me. I know my voice isn't that low and I can pass when I put effort in my voice. That's not the point though it's the fact that I have to put the effort to keep my voice at the right tone and pitch which takes a lot of work for me and in the end it's a fake voice. I just want a decent feminine voice that's fully me (Genuine not fake) that I don't have to worry about sounding right in public. How can I get her to see this plus understand that though I would agree most vocal surgeries art worth the risk and can give horrid results Yeson's actually seems a legit way to get a proper feminine voice due to their non invasive surgical methods. Unlike other's I've yet to find any real risks with this surgical method so far and I can only see benefits.
Any advice you can give me girls?
Paige, I think you should make that what you said here clear to your therapist. That the reason is not to get a good voice, which you maybe already have if you put the effort into it, but to get a good voice without having to think of it. What do you mean by a fake voice though - do you feel like your voice sounds fake if you get the pitch up? Because I think in that case VFD does not helpt that much as it basically only raises pitch as well, you hay have to work on other things then. Or do you feel like it if fake because you have to make a conscious effort to keep the voice there unlike just talking without thinking? In that case I would say that this is probably quite right, even though of course one still has to get the resonance control into the muscle memory in order to not have to think about that one all the time. I know that for some people it worked that their higher pitched female voice has become second nature and they do not have to think about it at all. I know for me, it takes conscious effort (and its not reall yeasy actually) to get back to my "male voice". So it seems to work in general, but I did not manage to get pitch up high enough in my "second nature" voice. Its a plus of maybe 30 Hz.
Sounding like inhaling Helium is scary and that was the intention. It is right in that the VFS only changes pitch, so in theory it does exactly what Helium does, but the pitch is not as high as if you inhaled pure Helium of course.
Quote from: SarahR on September 19, 2013, 04:56:24 PM
Thank you both. I'm super excited after hearing your results :-)
Good luck in November Sarah!
BTW - I love your new avatar. You are so pretty.
Quote from: anjaq on September 23, 2013, 01:48:00 AM
Paige, I think you should make that what you said here clear to your therapist. That the reason is not to get a good voice, which you maybe already have if you put the effort into it, but to get a good voice without having to think of it. What do you mean by a fake voice though - do you feel like your voice sounds fake if you get the pitch up? Because I think in that case VFD does not helpt that much as it basically only raises pitch as well, you hay have to work on other things then. Or do you feel like it if fake because you have to make a conscious effort to keep the voice there unlike just talking without thinking? In that case I would say that this is probably quite right, even though of course one still has to get the resonance control into the muscle memory in order to not have to think about that one all the time. I know that for some people it worked that their higher pitched female voice has become second nature and they do not have to think about it at all. I know for me, it takes conscious effort (and its not reall yeasy actually) to get back to my "male voice". So it seems to work in general, but I did not manage to get pitch up high enough in my "second nature" voice. Its a plus of maybe 30 Hz.
Sounding like inhaling Helium is scary and that was the intention. It is right in that the VFS only changes pitch, so in theory it does exactly what Helium does, but the pitch is not as high as if you inhaled pure Helium of course.
Yep your correct it's defiantly the second reasoning. :).
Well here's what I've written as a reply please let me know what you think before I send it off.
Please read everything in detail. Thank you (I'm sorry if that presented rude as that's certainly not my intention, I just like to know you completely understand what I'm getting at that's all.
Hi Tracie don't miss understand I don't want this surgery because I feel my voice isn't passable. In fact I think when I put the effort in it's fine. My main reason is not to get a good voice, which I already have if I put the effort into it (My true normal voice is actually much deeper I've just never shown it as it is horrible), but to get a good voice without having to think of it, to not worry if it's too deep and to leave the fears of accidently mucking up out of my head for good.
Ordinarily I would never opt the surgical route as I'm quite knowledgeable of the risks involved and most if not all methods present a high risk, low outcome possibility and should only ever be thought an option if your voice was near impossible to pass. That being said I recently came across a 2 month post op vocal recording from a voice clinic called Yeson's and upon hearing it I was quite intrigued and impressed. (You sound beautiful Jen :))
Here's a link if you wish to hear it yourself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9iFZI4bTPE
So I did some research upon them and was actually quite impressed as unlike all other vocal surgeries this one was a new method which is non invasive, fully reversible and has little to no risk involved. I was very intrigued I must say. I listened to multiple recordings of the surgery results and most if not all were very well done, no raspiness, very feminine. With one of the support group sites Susans.org I visit regularly, I found those whom know about it or have undertaken it themselves have spoke nothing but good words about it too.
I just ask if you could just have a look at Yeson's, see their results, their method etc. For honestly unlike all other vocal surgeries which I would never even consider doing, maybe even if I didn't have a passable voice I really believe the method Yeson voice clinic uses is a well done low to no risk, good results method. It's the only method I've seen that I believe is actually worth it even for a passable Mtf. P.S Oh also Jen is it okay I show the link to your successful surgery postop? I feel it'll help get the point across but if you feel uncomfortable I'll remove it k. xx
I think that is a good reply. The "everyone at Susans' did it may not be that great (really? did everyone here do this? ;) ) as of course "eveyone does it, so I want too" is not the greatest argument but I think you explain well why you want to do it. So I think you can send that IMO (if Jen is ok with the link).
Out of curiousity however - I know that looking at the surgeons website is not usually the best way to really judge the success rate as he will of course put up all the good results first and it seems that the pre/post recordning are somewhat tainted by the demand to do a uncontrolled voice first (without much resonance control) and the second recording then is with the raised pitch but also with resonance control (the latter not coming from the surgery). Are there any forums that people discuss their experiences in detail - some place where it is more likely to also find people who are less than satisfied with the results? If they do not exist or if there are like 2 of 200 that complain, then I think that would be a great way to show anyone that its worth it (including maybe me ;) )
Quote from: anjaq on September 23, 2013, 03:47:37 AM
I think that is a good reply. The "everyone at Susans' did it may not be that great (really? did everyone here do this? ;) ) as of course "eveyone does it, so I want too" is not the greatest argument but I think you explain well why you want to do it. So I think you can send that IMO (if Jen is ok with the link).
Out of curiousity however - I know that looking at the surgeons website is not usually the best way to really judge the success rate as he will of course put up all the good results first and it seems that the pre/post recordning are somewhat tainted by the demand to do a uncontrolled voice first (without much resonance control) and the second recording then is with the raised pitch but also with resonance control (the latter not coming from the surgery). Are there any forums that people discuss their experiences in detail - some place where it is more likely to also find people who are less than satisfied with the results? If they do not exist or if there are like 2 of 200 that complain, then I think that would be a great way to show anyone that its worth it (including maybe me ;) )
Yeah I too thought that was abit off base lol. I've edited the susans part (bolded). A bit better. And true getting opinions from other places would be a good way to add claim aswell.
Absolutely fine with it. Actually, I am flattered :D
Thanks for asking, that is really nice of you!
Oh course hunny :). I would never post anything related to another without their permission first.
Paige, is there a reason you're looking to get approval from your therapist? Yeson doesn't require a letter from a therapist or anything like that (like with SRS). Is this just so she can stay up-to-date on everything you're doing with your transition?
That and as she's done so much for me with my transition so far I want her to have support in this decision as well as I feel if I go through with this surgery even when she's against it it will cause damage within our relationship.
Quote from: Paige0000 on September 23, 2013, 05:49:19 PM
That and as she's done so much for me with my transition so far I want her to have support in this decision as well as I feel if I go through with this surgery even when she's against it it will cause damage within our relationship.
That makes sense to a degree. However, I'm curious how it would affect you if she does not end up approving of it yet you still feel like it's something you want? It's important to have support, and it sounds like she provides that, but it's also important that you feel comfortable with yourself. I'm not trying to advocate for or against the surgery, just curious.
Abby/Jenny, I assume you flew into Gimpo International Airport, is that right? I'm looking at flights right now and there are two airports from what I can see. Gimpo looks like it's the closer one in Google Maps, but I want to make sure I'm getting it right (since everything is mostly in Korean).
Also, any recommendations on the hotel? I've found a few that are relatively close to Yeson, but some are across the river whereas others aren't. Is getting around tricky at all? Is the area somewhere where I would feel comfortable walking from my hotel to the clinic?
Quote from: SarahR on September 23, 2013, 07:24:23 PM
Abby/Jenny, I assume you flew into Gimpo International Airport, is that right? I'm looking at flights right now and there are two airports from what I can see. Gimpo looks like it's the closer one in Google Maps, but I want to make sure I'm getting it right (since everything is mostly in Korean).
Also, any recommendations on the hotel? I've found a few that are relatively close to Yeson, but some are across the river whereas others aren't. Is getting around tricky at all? Is the area somewhere where I would feel comfortable walking from my hotel to the clinic?
Gimpo is actually the older/smaller airport that is mostly used for domestic flights within Korea. You will be flying into Incheon. As long as the flight arrives and departs during the week and between 9-5 the surgery center will pick you up and drop you off for free.
As far as hotels go, I stayed at Gangnam Artnouveau City II (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g294197-d1643621-Reviews-Gangnam_Artnouveau_City_II-Seoul.html). It was an AMAZING hotel for the price. The rooms are big, and have a kitchenette with rice cooker, microwave, stovetop, and full size fridge/freezer. They also have a washer/dryer unit in each hotel room, which was awesome. The hotel is a 5 minute walk from the Gangnam Station subway stop, which is very very convenient. Lots of restaurants and lots of shopping are close by, but being in Gangnam you are a little bit far from most of the tourist stuff. Still, it was easy for me to get to Insadong or Meyongdong from the hotel, because the subway system is really easy to use and has English throughout the stations/cars.
The hotel I linked was about a 15 minute cab ride (depending on traffic, once it took about 30 minutes) to Yeson. Cabs are pretty cheap in Seoul, and tipping is not done, so depending on traffic the cab rides were anywhere from $8-$10 each way.
You might want to pm Kathyp to see where she stayed though - if I recall correctly she actually rented an apartment for a very reasonable rate that was close to Yeson.
Edit: To answer your question, Seoul is an incredibly safe city, the Gangnam district even moreso. I never felt the least bit uneasy or unsafe the entire time I was there, and I was alone the whole time. The weirdest part was I didn't even see any police officers during my entire trip except for the parts of the tour that went to/near government buildings.
Quote from: abbyt89 on September 23, 2013, 08:04:23 PM
Gimpo is actually the older/smaller airport that is mostly used for domestic flights within Korea. You will be flying into Incheon. As long as the flight arrives and departs during the week and between 9-5 the surgery center will pick you up and drop you off for free.
As far as hotels go, I stayed at Gangnam Artnouveau City II (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g294197-d1643621-Reviews-Gangnam_Artnouveau_City_II-Seoul.html). It was an AMAZING hotel for the price. The rooms are big, and have a kitchenette with rice cooker, microwave, stovetop, and full size fridge/freezer. They also have a washer/dryer unit in each hotel room, which was awesome. The hotel is a 5 minute walk from the Gangnam Station subway stop, which is very very convenient. Lots of restaurants and lots of shopping are close by, but being in Gangnam you are a little bit far from most of the tourist stuff. Still, it was easy for me to get to Insadong or Meyongdong from the hotel, because the subway system is really easy to use and has English throughout the stations/cars.
The hotel I linked was about a 15 minute cab ride (depending on traffic, once it took about 30 minutes) to Yeson. Cabs are pretty cheap in Seoul, and tipping is not done, so depending on traffic the cab rides were anywhere from $8-$10 each way.
You might want to pm Kathyp to see where she stayed though - if I recall correctly she actually rented an apartment for a very reasonable rate that was close to Yeson.
Edit: To answer your question, Seoul is an incredibly safe city, the Gangnam district even moreso. I never felt the least bit uneasy or unsafe the entire time I was there, and I was alone the whole time. The weirdest part was I didn't even see any police officers during my entire trip except for the parts of the tour that went to/near government buildings.
Great info! Thanks!
And you're right, I'm going to be flying into the Incheon airport. It was cheaper anyways (likely because it's the bigger, more modern one).
Got my reply and it looks like she is starting to warm up to the idea which is great, I won't doubt your wonderful video had a say in it too Jen ;)
Hello Paige
Bring the information to the next session and we will discuss it. Do not book any surery.
Thanks.
Tracie
Sounds like she is still not very fond of it at all, I think. Essentially what she wants to do is to not do this via email and rather talk to you about why you want this and look you in the eye and then maybe try to talk you out of it. But well - this is a topic that if it is to be discussed in therapy, it has to be discussed face to face and not with email. Its too big of a step to just email about it. Lets see what you can report once you have been there with her.
Quote from: anjaq on September 24, 2013, 01:14:42 AM
Sounds like she is still not very fond of it at all, I think. Essentially what she wants to do is to not do this via email and rather talk to you about why you want this and look you in the eye and then maybe try to talk you out of it. But well - this is a topic that if it is to be discussed in therapy, it has to be discussed face to face and not with email. Its too big of a step to just email about it. Lets see what you can report once you have been there with her.
Yeah that's probably true, I've always been a very optimistic person so my views of this tend to be more hopeful then the norm lol. Oh well at least she's willing to talk about it because I'm very much set in mind to pursue this surgery so even if she remains against it at least she'll be able understand that if worst came to worst, the surgery is reversible. She may not like it but as long as she comes to respect my decision to pursue it that's all I care about.
I have to second what SarahR is saying about therapists. Initially, I had told my therapist about the Yeson procedure- kind of semi-asking for her approval. She shook her head and smiled at me saying the my voice is (was) lovely and she didn't want me to lose that- mainly because she had heard so many not so successful VFS results and that my voice is a big part of who I am. In her eyes, it was not worth the risk.
That was about the time that I inadvertently took a break from seeing my therapist and decided to go through with the surgery. The next time I saw her (at a local LGBTQ event), I was about 6 weeks post-op. She was busy at the event so she couldn't really talk, and I still couldn't really talk loud enough anyway.. but she did hear my voice and gave me a big hug. It wasn't until just the other week that I saw her again, and at that point I was almost 4 months post-op. She was floored with how my voice sounded and took down every bit of information about Yeson... saying that I have made leaps and bounds in my transition since she last saw me. We both agreed that a large part was due to voice and the effect it has on every aspect of life.
This surgery has been the biggest catalyst for me so far. I can't even imagine going back to having my old voice. Noooo way ;)
Chances are your therapist is well knowledged on previous surgeries like CTA and other risky vocal procedures that are generally not recommended- unless you are willing to roll the dice. This new method hasn't been offered or popularized enough for the vast majority of people to know about it yet, and it carries the large reputational burden from all the old procedures. For some reason, I think we will generally have a hard time convincing therapists that Yeson is a good idea... But perhaps that will change quicker if the good word spreads fast and people share their results.
Quote from: Jennygirl on September 24, 2013, 03:59:12 AM
I have to second what SarahR is saying about therapists. Initially, I had told my therapist about the Yeson procedure- kind of semi-asking for her approval. She shook her head and smiled at me saying the my voice is (was) lovely and she didn't want me to lose that- mainly because she had heard so many not so successful VFS results and that my voice is a big part of who I am. In her eyes, it was not worth the risk.
That was about the time that I inadvertently took a break from seeing my therapist and decided to go through with the surgery. The next time I saw her (at a local LGBTQ event), I was about 6 weeks post-op. She was busy at the event so she couldn't really talk, and I still couldn't really talk loud enough anyway.. but she did hear my voice and gave me a big hug. It wasn't until just the other week that I saw her again, and at that point I was almost 4 months post-op. She was floored with how my voice sounded and took down every bit of information about Yeson... saying that I have made leaps and bounds in my transition since she last saw me. We both agreed that a large part was due to voice and the effect it has on every aspect of life.
This surgery has been the biggest catalyst for me so far. I can't even imagine going back to having my old voice. Noooo way ;)
Chances are your therapist is well knowledged on previous surgeries like CTA and other risky vocal procedures that are generally not recommended- unless you are willing to roll the dice. This new method hasn't been offered or popularized enough for the vast majority of people to know about it yet, and it carries the large reputational burden from all the old procedures. For some reason, I think we will generally have a hard time convincing therapists that Yeson is a good idea... But perhaps that will change quicker if the good word spreads fast and people share their results.
i don't understand why many of your use/asq your therapist for every single thing you wanna do. Just do what you wanna do. is it obligatory in USA that all transsexuals need a therapist's consent to do every single move in your transition? they sound annoying to have. thx god in my country they are not compulsory.
Well as I see it, one enters in a trusting relationship with a therapist, ideally. If that is the case, one naturally wants to work together and not in opposition. Of course in the end, one has to make ones own decisions even if she does disapprove, but I understand that this is harder - if only because she may be less inclined to help in case something does develop that is not ideal as a result of such a decision. I think it is ok if someone is as strong and energetic to pull through everything by herself but not everyone is such a "self made person" naturally and thus benefits from someone to talk to and work together. I could not have done transition without avery close friend of mine. She was my therapist in a way as I did not like any of the gender therapists that I had and basically just went there as a duty. And a major reason why I did not do any VFS back then was that my friend disapproved strongly to it with the same arguments just mentioned, that I would certainly loose the quality and beauty of my voice, that it may actually even go wrong, that my voice is also part of my personality and by changing it through surgery I would loose in a way the coherence of my personality and voice. Stuff like that. So I did not do it and pulled through the past 15 years without it, ever now and then getting weird looks or comments because of the voice, so in hindsight I think I was maybe a bit too much influenced as well - OTOH at that time in 2002 there was not many good options openly available and the only one I met I did not like too much and actually it was as a result of a similar procedure. (To be fair, I heard her in the weeks post op when the voice is far from healed and then did not meet her again - plus I was maybe just not used to the pitch she then had - I found it to be too high for her in terms of age, maturity, the rest of the body and personality). What I am a bit sorry about is that I did drop out of all things trans in the years after and did not keep up to date with improved procedures, otherwise that question may have come up earlier.
Paige, you are of course right in that it is a good thing she wants to talk and not just denies that possibility at all. In any case it is good to talk in person about such a thing as then she can raise her concerns and you can present what you know and then maybe some misconceptions will be cleared. I would advise you to get well informed - not just for your therapist but as always things you do for tha therapist often benefit yourself and in this case it would benefit you to get really well informed and not just via Susans or the Yeson website, so you can maybe also reply to some questions she may have about shortcomings.
One thing I wonder - you said the procedure is completely reversible - is that true? I cannot imagine that. I can imagine that yes you can get the pitch back lower if you would like that (why?) but I think your voice would sound very different after such a second reversed surgery and probably not as clear as before any procedure as there are scars and all that. So I would not really call this completely reversible, but I did not read tha tup. Have you read that up? Did you hear to examples of reversals or have statements of people who did that? Otherwise mentioning reversal may actually be a mute point...
Yeson's procedure is not reversible at all, they remove a small mucous membrane at the commissure of the vocal cords and that is where they suture it. It then heals over the 2 sutures and there is no way to get the old length back. You can't just remove something and have your old longer vocal cord length back. It's permanent
Sarahhhhhhhh! I logged in to the forums for the first time in a long time and look! A post by you :) I hope you get what you are looking for from this surgery. It's funny, remember sitting in my bedroom in Orange County in my apartment after I moved out of the house and practicing voice together? That was six years ago probably close to the exact month. I hope life is going well and you and T are doing well :) Meghan (aka...you know, lol)
Quote from: Jennygirl on September 25, 2013, 03:30:10 AM
Yeson's procedure is not reversible at all, they remove a small mucous membrane at the commissure of the vocal cords and that is where they suture it. It then heals over the 2 sutures and there is no way to get the old length back. You can't just remove something and have your old longer vocal cord length back. It's permanent
Hmm it's strange. I certainly didn't see anything referring to the surgery be reversible whilst doing more researching on it last night either. Yet I feel a while back I certainly read that it was a ? ??? Maybe my mind was playing tricks on me hmm weird?
Quote from: MeghanAndrews on September 25, 2013, 04:09:54 AM
Sarahhhhhhhh! I logged in to the forums for the first time in a long time and look! A post by you :) I hope you get what you are looking for from this surgery. It's funny, remember sitting in my bedroom in Orange County in my apartment after I moved out of the house and practicing voice together? That was six years ago probably close to the exact month. I hope life is going well and you and T are doing well :) Meghan (aka...you know, lol)
Hey Meghan! It's been too long! I do remember that, lol. How time flies! It's great to hear from you, really!
You know, I wasn't even ever considering this type of surgery in the least, mainly due to all the bad results I've heard from other techniques. But I happened upon Jenny's YouTube video and was blown away. My voice isn't the worst to be honest, it's just really inconsistent, feels forced and fake to me, which causes me to have to think before every word I say and is the main reason I'm getting this surgery done. I'm so done with feeling "trans" and the voice is the only thing holding me back from really just living.
I totall can relate - again, Sarah. Like today - the day was starting good, my voice was allright (it never really is great but its ok). Then we went with a group to visit some intersting sightseeing stuff and had some lunch with wine and conversation - I already noticed that because I talked so much my voice was a bit inconsistent and the wine did not help. Then there was more sightseeing and for dinner there was a wine tasting, lots of wine and I got a bit drunk. And again lots of conversation in english (foreign language for me). I noticed that I just could not keep it up, that I lost it here and there, especially when I was making emotional responses instead of thoughtful conversation. My pitch probably was in a good gender neutral range on average but trailed up and down a lot, probably way into the male range at times. Resonance was also not always great. So I guess with some more training I would get better conscious control over that, but I doubt that I can stay focus after half a bottle of wine when doing an emotional response.
I remember Abby posted in the other thread that she also had rather low umms and hmms even post VFS so emotional or non-thoughtful resonses seem to happen more likely without control.
One thing I am interested - if you loose resonance control but not pitch (as pitch is taken care of by the surgery), does it sound too odd for people to nitice something is off? I mean does it sound sort of like a low falsetto or anything? After all thats what peopl ekeep saying that if you raise pitch without resonance control you end up with a fake sounding voice like a falsetto and hence the importance of resonance control in voice therapy. In your recent recording, Abby, I dont think it sounds like that at all even though you say you "dont control resonance much", so I kind of hope that at least fleeting moments of loosing resonance may not be noted when pitch is ok???
I think I read that stuff on the reversibility as well somewhere. I found it odd. Maybe in some way it is, if you actually open up the suture and let the vocal cords heal at that part, but that certainly will not result in a really good voice, more like the bad results of the other surgeries that I heard of. Scars on 1/3 of the vocal cord and mucous membranes missing there cannot sound that nice, I imagine. But maybe they can fix it with more work in some way. Who knows.
So after that day with wine and all I had a tear or two on the way back, feeling that strange pull towards something that I may not like but that may be happening anyways. It feels a bit like the whole other things about transition. Like there is something that is hurtful or dangerous or expensive or may lead to some losses, but you still feel like the chances you doing it increase all the time. Maybe you know that feeling. Its a bit feeling like predetermination. I dont know if it is that for me now already, but it nags at me that I may have to do this eventually to be at peace and not feel "trans" whenever I am talking :s
Yeah, anjaq, it's those situations that I can't quite control that my voice goes haywire: coughing, yelling, laughing (which I rarely do with any sound at all anymore), etc. It's not enough to be able to get a passable voice in controlled, or quiet, or very specific times. I'd rather never have to think about my voice, in any situation. That is why this procedure is so appealing. I'd like to say I have resonance down pretty well, it's just controlling the pitch that I find difficult to keep stable and consistent in certain situations.
Also an update, I booked my flight! Woohoo! I'll be flying into Incheon International Airport on that Sunday afternoon (South Korean time) and leaving in the evening on the second Wednesday after that (10 days later). I have my first consultation on Monday, November 11th, the surgery on Tuesday, and the follow-up on the next Tuesday. Now I just need to book a hotel. I've been looking through the ones Yeson suggested, as well as others in that area, but haven't decided on one yet. I'll probably be booking the hotel in the next couple of days. After that it's just a waiting game.
I'm also wondering what I want to do to fill my time while I'm there for 10 days. I'm going to take the advice I saw in the other thread and try to book the free tour early on so I can use that as a guide to see the places I might like to return to throughout the week. Other than that I guess I'll just have to wait until I get to there to really figure out what I want to do.
44 days and counting until I leave!
Yes, thats what gets me - my reasons line up. Aw what a thing - another surgery 13 years post-op? Geez. On the upside of it I have found that it seems that I even can get insurance cover for it, if I can prove that I need it. Probably that takes therapy or such again and I will have to do voice training first or something like that. Maybe I even need some letters of referral. I dont know. But it seems that if I really would aim for that, and I am absolutely not sure about that yet though it all sounds soooo tempting, I may with some effort get it without payment. On the downside, they most certainly will not pay for surgery in Korea, but in Berlin - the one that Lena mentioned who does this since 1999. He wrote a paper on this, I started a new thread on it here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,149695.msg1239523.html#msg1239523
I have no way as of now to check his success rate though. There is no promotional website for this and I am still looking for a local TG forum that has good people talking about TS in it and less about crossdressing and such. If he is good and successful and insurance can pay for it, I am feeling that I actually consider it. But research first....
EDIT: Oh wow, seems there is a second surgeon in Germany doing the same thing in Stuttgart. I get the impression thei method is rather widespread already and not at all unique to Yeson!
So I booked my hotel! I ended up taking Abby's suggestion and booked 10 nights at Gangnam Artnouveau City II (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g294197-d1643621-Reviews-Gangnam_Artnouveau_City_II-Seoul.html). Thanks for the suggestion Abby!
I think that's pretty much it at this point. I have the surgery, flight, and hotel all taken care of. From what I can tell the transportation from the airport to the hotel won't be too difficult, and they are providing transportation back to the airport which is great.
I've been doing various voice recordings, trying to record my natural (male) voice without any explicit pitch change, my normal female speaking voice, and some additional female voices in higher ranges. I'm also recording my ranges from low to high so i can see the difference. I want to compare the difference between my voice in these different situations pre- and post-op. I'm curious if the pre- and post-op voices at the same frequency will sound the same (since technically it's just affecting the pitch) or if there will be a noticeable difference. My thought is that there will be a difference, if only because pre-op I am having to force it to go higher and I may not be using as much air, so the resonance may be off.
If your results are anything like mine, it will sound a little different- but still like you. The act of tying off part of the vocal cords stretches them slightly, thinning them out and giving a lighter/softer sound.
So excited for you!!
And hopefully we can hear kathyp's results soon :)
Great for you. So a bit more than one month, we'll all be curious about the months afterwards and the comparison, if you will share them.
Hehe - I dreamt of you all last night - a bunch of girls that were silent for a week in my dream because they got a new voice :) - it was a bit weird though as the evening before I tried to do the male voice, took me a while to do it. Got scared a bit of it. And then the dream and today when i woke up I had a really bad throat soreness and could not speak the whole day. I had to think of you all again as I tried to type and sign. It was harder than I thought it would be ;). But it made me think - does silent whispering count as speaking in your restrictions? Like the kind that you can only understand when really close?
Quote from: Jennygirl on October 01, 2013, 04:56:30 PM
If your results are anything like mine, it will sound a little different- but still like you. The act of tying off part of the vocal cords stretches them slightly, thinning them out and giving a lighter/softer sound.
So excited for you!!
And hopefully we can hear kathyp's results soon :)
That makes sense. And I hope my results are half as good as yours are, haha. I'm anxiously awaiting kathyp's results too!
Quote from: anjaq on October 01, 2013, 05:12:06 PM
Great for you. So a bit more than one month, we'll all be curious about the months afterwards and the comparison, if you will share them.
Hehe - I dreamt of you all last night - a bunch of girls that were silent for a week in my dream because they got a new voice :) - it was a bit weird though as the evening before I tried to do the male voice, took me a while to do it. Got scared a bit of it. And then the dream and today when i woke up I had a really bad throat soreness and could not speak the whole day. I had to think of you all again as I tried to type and sign. It was harder than I thought it would be ;). But it made me think - does silent whispering count as speaking in your restrictions? Like the kind that you can only understand when really close?
Of course I'll share the recordings! That's part of the reason I'm doing it, for me to compare, but also for the community.
Hmm, I think the main thing is to make sure the vocal chords don't move. If there is a way to whisper without them moving, while still being understood I can't think of a reason it would be restricted. Not that I'm going to take that chance :)
Oh my pre-op and post-op totally sound different even at the same pitch. I think part of it is because the vocal folds are thinner as Jenny mentioned and also you're not straining anymore after the surgery.
I think my first post here was a voice clip, and it was at around 190hz. It sounds soooo bad (truly embarrassing) compared to what my voice sounds like now at the same pitch, and the fact that it requires no effort from me is just amazing.
Edit: Oh, and you'll love the hotel. The decor is a bit gaudy for my taste but the value for what you get is outstanding. It was so nice coming back from a long day to a nice big comfy hotel room.
Just some tips since they didn't explain the keycard to me when I checked in:
-The keycard can be finicky to unlock your room, so just hold the card against the thing on the door for a few seconds and it will unlock
- When you first walk into your room, there's a little slot by the door to put your keycard in. This turns on the power and lights in your room, so that when you leave and take your card with you everything shuts off automatically. I was seriously confused because none of the lights were turning on since I didn't know I had to put my key card in the slot.
- There is no laundry detergent in the room, but if you call the front desk they'll send somebody up with a little container of it. The w/d unit thankfully has English labels on the buttons. The rice cooker was a different story and I could never figure that out.
The hotel is really convenient to Gangnam station which is a major metro stop. You just make a right out of the hotel, make a right down the first road you see, and then your second left. A short ways up you'll see the entrance to the subway station (Entrance 5.) COEX is a big shopping mall with a movie theatre and aquarium that is only three stops down (towards Yeoksam) the green line. It's also easy to connect to the lines that will take you across the river and to the more touristy areas of the city.
There's also a ton of convenience stores within a short walk of the hotel. If you make a left from the hotel there will be a CU a half block away. There are also roughly a million restaurants within walking distance of the hotel.
Oh and if you're a cat lover there's a really cool cat cafe not far from entrance 10 of Gangnam station.
I was bored (and missing Seoul, I wanna go back so bad :( ), so here's a map!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F3dQbZrm.png&hash=27533f0b7a2b52a2b4b84aa9d931ecc80e23f62d)
The blue line is the quickest way to the subway from the hotel.
Anywhere along the main streets that follow the red and green lines you see in the map have a ton of convenience stores, chain restaurants, some shopping, etc. If you want to find more authentic restaurants just walk around the little side streets and you'll see a ton. The area is super safe and there's a police station a few blocks south of your hotel.
If you take the green line going west for 3 stops you'll hit COEX. If you take it east one stop you can transfer to the orange line which will take you across the river. To get to Yeson, just go to the front desk and tell them to call you a cab. They will walk out to the cab driver with you and make sure the driver understands where you are going. I would give yourself a half-hour or so in case there is bad traffic, even though Yeson is only a few miles away.
If I think of more stuff I'll let you know :)
Wow, thanks Abby, that's some great information! I'm going to have to print that entire post out and take it with me.
Quote from: anjaq on October 01, 2013, 05:12:06 PM
does silent whispering count as speaking in your restrictions? Like the kind that you can only understand when really close?
You cannot whisper at all. Actually the turbulent air flow of "stage whispering" makes it one of the worst things you can do to your vocal cords even when just recovering from a cold. So remember that: if you ever lose your voice, DON'T whisper- it'll make things worse! It tenses and dries the cords out... and for recovery from this surgery that is equally as bad as talking during the silent period.
Ha, yeah ok. I did not do it either today. I wonder if this stupid voice loss of mine today is another psycho trick of my brain. I mean I never ever lost my voice totally in a cold and now I only have a mild one and do. All that worrying and trying voices of the past days, the first time in years old voice usage ... coincidence?
Abby that sounds great that you can now have the same pitch as before but it sounds better. Must be that somehow resonance got affected after all ....??
You've really done your homework haven't you Jenny. Good to know for when/if I lose my voice in the future. I'm not planning on opening my mouth at all unless it's to eat, drink, or brush my teeth.
Quote from: SarahR on October 01, 2013, 06:27:39 PM
You've really done your homework haven't you Jenny. Good to know for when/if I lose my voice in the future. I'm not planning on opening my mouth at all unless it's to eat, drink, or brush my teeth.
Recovering from the Yeson procedure put me through my usual paces of freaking out over nothing and learning a few things on accident. Sometimes I end up inadvertently using anxieties to my advantage ;)
I decided to post some of my current voice recordings with the rainbow passage. After surgery, I'm going to do the same three types of recordings so I can compare the difference. They're not the best recordings as my voice is a little hoarse today, but I guess they'll do for now.
- Low: Normal (natural) male speaking voice. No effort.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/rainbow-passage-low/s-meihH
- Mid - Normal female speaking voice. Little effort.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/rainbow-passage-mid/s-NcJcb
- High - Elevated female speaking voice. Some effort.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/rainbow-passage-high/s-Pjz6N
Quote from: SarahR on October 02, 2013, 07:19:42 PM
I decided to post some of my current voice recordings with the rainbow passage. After surgery, I'm going to do the same three types of recordings so I can compare the difference. They're not the best recordings as my voice is a little hoarse today, but I guess they'll do for now.
- Low: Normal (natural) male speaking voice. No effort.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/rainbow-passage-low/s-meihH
- Mid - Normal female speaking voice. Little effort.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/rainbow-passage-mid/s-NcJcb
- High - Elevated female speaking voice. Some effort.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/rainbow-passage-high/s-Pjz6N
Your voice, while a bit quiet, sounds great even at the "male" level. You have resonance down girl, damn. I think you will be very, very happy with your results from Yeson. :)
Those recordings are already really great. Even the "no effort" voice sounds good except of course of the buzzing at times. You start with a rather good pitch already it seems. My guess would be 140Hz or so.
We will all be eager to listen to the comparison :)
Quote from: abbyt89 on October 02, 2013, 08:15:32 PM
Your voice, while a bit quiet, sounds great even at the "male" level. You have resonance down girl, damn. I think you will be very, very happy with your results from Yeson. :)
Thanks! I'm getting more and more excited for it as each day goes by!
Quote from: anjaq on October 03, 2013, 05:45:22 AM
Those recordings are already really great. Even the "no effort" voice sounds good except of course of the buzzing at times. You start with a rather good pitch already it seems. My guess would be 140Hz or so.
We will all be eager to listen to the comparison :)
Haha, you're spot on, the average of my starting voice is usually between 135-140Hz.
So after I went through Jenny's tutorial on Praat I decided to load in the three recordings I made and get a more accurate measurement of the average frequencies. Due to some little areas throughout the audio where Praat seems to put the frequency at like 4000+Hz, I didn't feel it was accurate to just select everything and see what the average frequency was. Instead, I cut out the little anomalies first, then I got the averages.
Here are the average frequencies I got:
Low:
Original: 175.1Hz
Edited: 153.7Hz
Mid:
Original: 193.2Hz
Edited: 169.3Hz
High:
Original: 225.3Hz
Edited: 190.2Hz
I'm not sure if these numbers are completely accurate, but they seem like they could be close, if nothing else. By the way, the "Original" numbers are the frequencies without cutting out the anomalies. The "Edited" ones are the frequencies after the edits.
If these numbers are close to accurate then I think the results will be exactly what I'm looking for! If I end up between 190-215Hz after the surgery then I should fall within the range of the "High" recording, which would be pretty awesome! A 75Hz increase from the current "Low" would mean my average speaking frequency would be around 228Hz. Based on my previous (veeeery rough estimates) I figured it was around 140Hz now, meaning post-op I would be around 215Hz. Based on Jenny's results, she seems to be between 190-210Hz on average, and she apparently started around where I am as well (~140Hz).
Yes I get that with the "spikes". I see them too. Also to the lower end at times. Also the blue line is like a snake, its moving up and down a lot as I seem to go up in pitch a lot in some words. So I guess it is safer to pick a part that is stable to do the analysis than to average it over the exceptions. I noticed I have some drops to like 110 Hz at times - Eww. just for a sylable or so. Erm - anyways Just wanted to say that I think best is to pick a part where the blue line is rather constant and go for that, IMO.
So I thought it might be useful to do a post outlining some of the smaller items I have to plan out while in Seoul.
Cell Phone Rental:I read a lot of comments regarding renting cell phones at the airport when arriving in Seoul. Initially I was going to just add an international data plan to my phone for next month, but I was worried that my phone wouldn't be supported there or something (CDMA, GSM, MultiBand, Sim, No Sim, etc.). So to just make sure I know it'll work and I'll be able to make calls and use the internet I ended up just going the mobile phone rental route.
From the listed prices it seems like it'll be pretty cheap, relatively. I reserved one from http://roaming.kt.com/. They list an unlimited data service rate of 5,000KRW/day...which based on today's exchange rates would come out to $46.64 for the entire 10 days I'm staying there. The rental fee is 2,700KRW/day ($25.19 over 10 days). I don't plan on making many calls (maybe domestic calls to the clinic, but I'd likely just call them from the hotel for free, I assume). The rate is 100KRW/10 seconds ($0.56 per minute). Any international calls I'd make would be to people who I would just Skype video chat to anyways, which would be covered under the data plan. If my calculations are correct, it looks like it'll be about $71.83 total...that's not too bad to me for having unlimited data and the peace of mind knowing I won't be stuck without access to information when I'm out. And anyways, it's cheaper than the $120 I would have to spend to add an international data plan to my current cell phone plan.
Airport Transportation:I've been looking into the transportation from the Incheon airport to the hotel and it looks like it'll be the ILWON Station route (#6009). They have a standard and deluxe version. I'm going to do the deluxe, since they say it has less stops and is more comfortable. It's 15,000KRW, so for the two of us it'll be 30,000KRW ($27.99). The clinic will be providing transportation back to the airport so I won't have to take the bus back. It looks like the bus stops just a couple of blocks away from the hotel, however, I'm still trying to figure out how I'll know when I'm at that stop. I assume it the Gangnam Station, I guess, and that they'll say when it's that stop. I just hope they say it in English so I'll understand it, lol!
I was also looking into the AREX train but it looks like it ends at the Seoul Station and I'm not sure what to do after that. It seems like it's a little cheaper, and it's faster since it doesn't have to deal with traffic like the bus does, but with the confusion with the train stop and likely being less comfortable (especially after a whole day of flying) I think the bus would be better overall.
Money / Credit Cards:I've been looking into the card agreement for my American Express Blue Sky credit card and I don't see much about international use. I'm going to call beforehand and make sure they won't decline the card while I'm there. I already checked on their site and used their tool to check whether the large surgery payment would be accepted and they said it would, so that's good. I just hope that I don't run into any issues with that while I'm there. I'm going to also have my Debit Mastercard from my bank, but that's all. I don't have any other credit cards, so if either of those don't work then I'm screwed. If anyone has any experience with this I'd appreciate it any tips or suggestions.
I'm probably going to get some Korean Won at the airport or something to make sure I have at least a bit of cash just in case I have a problem with my cards.
Running Total:Here's a breakdown of my current costs (and some projected costs).
- Cell Phone: $100 (rounding up just in case)
- Flight: $1,770.60 (total for 2 passengers)
- Hotel: $1,689.10 (for 10 days)
- Shuttle Bus: $28 (for 2 passengers)
- Food/Misc. Supplies/Taxis: $500*
- Surgery: $7,580*
- Botox: $410.80* (if it's needed)
That comes to a grand total of $12,078.50. I'm sure there will be other costs I'm not factoring in as well, so I'm assuming it'll end up being closer to $12,500. That's a lot of money all just so I can make the opening between my lungs and mouth smaller, haha! If I end up with a result even close to what I've heard so far though, it will all be 1000% worth it.
Anyways, that's all I have for now. Only 25 days until I leave!
---
* Includes 2.7% foreign transaction fee imposed by American Express. Price may vary depending on exchange rate at the time of purchase.
Hey Sarah.
For cell phones, I don't know about CDMA in Korea, but GSM is available everywhere. It's pretty much the global standard now.
I don't know much about the other stuff you have on there. You've found a pretty good deal on flights, less than $900 a person is pretty good for transpacific. Just curious, what airline are you going with?
Ahh it's so close I bet you are so excited!
Your plan sounds pretty good!
For cell phones, Korea is actually one of the few countries outside of the U.S. that is CDMA. But since you're renting it doesn't really matter to you.
For airport transportation, did you talk to Jesse about transportation? If your flights land/depart between 9-5pm during the week they provide transportation for free.
With the credit card, definitely call the bank and let them know that not only will you be out of the country but that you are going to charge a large amount to your card. They an notate your account so if it comes up for fraud review they will see the note and approve it.
As for the debit card, is it just a debit card or is it a check card connected to your checking account? Check cards have a Visa/MC logo and can be used as credit cards. If it is just a debit card, you might have trouble using it at foreign ATMs. It depends on your bank, I would definitely call them before hand and see what they say about using it at foreign ATMs. My bank's (USAA) debit-only cards don't work even at "global" ATMs, so I had to make sure that I switched over to a check card.
And wow, you got a great deal on the flights! I paid that much for just my ticket!
Your projected costs seem to be pretty realistic! My total ended up being just over $12,200.
Quote from: Willow on October 14, 2013, 06:53:53 PM
Hey Sarah.
For cell phones, I don't know about CDMA in Korea, but GSM is available everywhere. It's pretty much the global standard now.
I don't know much about the other stuff you have on there. You've found a pretty good deal on flights, less than $900 a person is pretty good for transpacific. Just curious, what airline are you going with?
I'm flying with United Airlines. I was initially wanting to go with Korean Air since I heard a lot of good stuff about them, but they were way more expensive (like $500/ticket more) so I decided I'll save the money and go United.
Quote from: abbyt89 on October 14, 2013, 07:06:02 PM
Ahh it's so close I bet you are so excited!
Yep I'm extremely excited. The time has been going both slow and fast. I can't help but keep looking at the calendar every hour of each day, so that makes it go slow. But then I'll wake up and realize that, hey, another week has gone by already!
Quote from: abbyt89 on October 14, 2013, 07:06:02 PM
For cell phones, Korea is actually one of the few countries outside of the U.S. that is CDMA. But since you're renting it doesn't really matter to you.
Oh really, they're CDMA? Is the iPhone (with AT&T) CDMA as well? Either way, like you say, I feel better just renting the phone and knowing it'll work.
Quote from: abbyt89 on October 14, 2013, 07:06:02 PM
For airport transportation, did you talk to Jesse about transportation? If your flights land/depart between 9-5pm during the week they provide transportation for free.
I'm actually arriving on a Sunday, so I have to handle the transportation to my hotel myself. I am having Yeson drive me back to the airport though when I leave, since I leave on a Wednesday.
Quote from: abbyt89 on October 14, 2013, 07:06:02 PM
With the credit card, definitely call the bank and let them know that not only will you be out of the country but that you are going to charge a large amount to your card. They an notate your account so if it comes up for fraud review they will see the note and approve it.
As for the debit card, is it just a debit card or is it a check card connected to your checking account? Check cards have a Visa/MC logo and can be used as credit cards. If it is just a debit card, you might have trouble using it at foreign ATMs. It depends on your bank, I would definitely call them before hand and see what they say about using it at foreign ATMs. My bank's (USAA) debit-only cards don't work even at "global" ATMs, so I had to make sure that I switched over to a check card.
My debit card does have a Mastercard symbol on it and can be used as a CC. It is the card that's linked to my checking account. That makes sense about the CC, I'll make sure to call them beforehand and let them know I'll be making a large international purchase, and a lot of smaller ones probably too.
Quote from: abbyt89 on October 14, 2013, 07:06:02 PM
Your projected costs seem to be pretty realistic! My total ended up being just over $12,200.
Yeah, it seems like I'll be pretty much the same. I'm sure someone could get away with a little lower total cost if they needed to.
I was lucky with mine because I booked it less than a month in advance and I had a vacation already planned in between. So I had like 2 weeks of waiting, an awesome vacation, and then Korea!
I know how you feel now though because I have my FFS planned for 2 months from now - but it's already been almost two weeks since I planned that so it'll be here before I know it. :)
And yeah, it could definitely have been done cheaper. If I planned it further in advance I probably would have saved a few hundred dollars in airfare, I could also have saved $500 or so on my hotel, and the ~$600 I spent on skincare/cosmetics was obviously unnecessary. But Koreans are the best when it comes to skincare - I've been using this line of toner/moisturizers/sleeping masks with snail gel and my skin is flawless! It really makes a difference - I heal so much faster after my E3K sessions when using it.
Anyway I'm getting off topic - I'm excited for you and can't wait to hear your results!
Korean and Asiana are awesome. A little sad, but I'm a airline geek who has only flow twice (Brussels-Venice-Brussels) on an non-US airline, so I'd be OK with the extra cost myself :P
AT&T is GSM, but I believe, on top of CDMA, GSM is in place as well, in Korea.
Have fun, and good luck, girl :)
If I had to do this surgery a second time, I might actually consider taking the cash amount in USD and keeping a close eye on it overnight. They actually accept american currency at the front desk (minus conversion rate). Yet another way to save a few hundred bucks and just FYI!
Quote from: Jennygirl on October 15, 2013, 01:44:56 PM
If I had to do this surgery a second time, I might actually consider taking the cash amount in USD and keeping a close eye on it overnight. They actually accept american currency at the front desk (minus conversion rate). Yet another way to save a few hundred bucks and just FYI!
If they didn't accept American Express I'd likely be doing that, although I'd probably try using my Debit Mastercard first since I would assume that it would work (as it can be used as a credit card). It would be really hard to carry around that much cash though. I think I'd strap it to my arm or something and keep it covered just so I can have it with me at all times and not worry about someone stealing it (unless they want my arm too, lol). I couldn't imagine getting there and losing the money the day before the surgery!
By the way, Jenny/Abby, how did you girls pay for the surgery? I assume credit card, but which type, Visa, Amex, MC...? They confirmed that they do accept American Express but I can't stop wondering what I'd do if it gets declined for some reason.
I used Mastercard. I was originally going to use an Amex but I wouldn't have had the actual card with me (it was my dad's) and even though Jesse said that would be ok I wasn't positive she understood what I was asking of her.
I wouldn't worry about the card not working as long as you tell them in advance. And thankfully you pay before surgery so if some reason there is an issue you can give them a call.
Good luck!
Yeah you know now that I think of it, I wonder if you wire it to them in USD if you will avoid some of the conversion rates? I would think the wire fee to be cheaper.
You'd have to ask your bank, and I'm sure Jesse could get you the account info to wire it to. Certainly carrying a bunch of cash seems like a burden, I didn't want to do it either :)
Quote from: Jennygirl on October 15, 2013, 06:56:45 PM
Yeah you know now that I think of it, I wonder if you wire it to them in USD if you will avoid some of the conversion rates? I would think the wire fee to be cheaper.
You'd have to ask your bank, and I'm sure Jesse could get you the account info to wire it to. Certainly carrying a bunch of cash seems like a burden, I didn't want to do it either :)
I asked about wiring it and I got the information from Jessie, but I checked the fees and they were pretty steep. I can't remember what they were, but I don't think they were less than the 2.7% that American Express charges for foreign transactions. The 2.7% is only going to add an additional ~$200 anyways, plus I'm always looking for ways to get more points from my Amex as it pays for a lot of travel expenses (without having to pay any interest at all)! The surgery cost itself will be pretty much a free $100 in travel, so it's really like only being charged an extra $100.
Hey Abby/Jenny,
Do they give you any tips on what to do when you need to sneeze? I can't stop thinking about sneezing and ruining the suture! I've been trying to pay attention to sneezing lately and sometimes they come on so quickly that I can't stop it and are kind of rough that I'm wondering what it would do after the surgery. How did you handle that while you were in recovery?
Also, I can't help but be a little bit nervous after hearing about Kiwi4Eva's experience there. You both have such wonderful stories of your experiences and the results speak for themselves that I'm hoping that it's just the normal (albeit extremely unfortunate) mathematical probability at play here. Being human, there is bound to be mistakes every now and then. How they dealt with the situation was appalling, but I can't help but think that I am not in the same situation and will hopefully not have the same bad experience myself. Really, all I care about is having a voice I can call my own! I can't deny being a little bit taken aback though, but I'm seeing this through.
Quote from: SarahR on October 21, 2013, 10:32:38 PM
Hey Abby/Jenny,
Do they give you any tips on what to do when you need to sneeze? I can't stop thinking about sneezing and ruining the suture! I've been trying to pay attention to sneezing lately and sometimes they come on so quickly that I can't stop it and are kind of rough that I'm wondering what it would do after the surgery. How did you handle that while you were in recovery?
Also, I can't help but be a little bit nervous after hearing about Kiwi4Eva's experience there. You both have such wonderful stories of your experiences and the results speak for themselves that I'm hoping that it's just the normal (albeit extremely unfortunate) mathematical probability at play here. Being human, there is bound to be mistakes every now and then. How they dealt with the situation was appalling, but I can't help but think that I am not in the same situation and will hopefully not have the same bad experience myself. Really, all I care about is having a voice I can call my own! I can't deny being a little bit taken aback though, but I'm seeing this through.
They didn't mention anything about sneezing, at least not that I can recall. But I don't think sneezing alone really puts any stress on your vocal folds as long as you don't try to make any sound with it. I remember sneezing once or twice during my 7 day recovery and not feeling anything or making any noise. I could be wrong though about the stress on your vocal folds part - I would ask Jesse/Dr. Kim just to make sure.
And yeah, every surgeon no matter how good he or she is makes mistakes, it's just the infallibility of humans. But the way a surgeon and his or her staff handles those mistakes is really the key and it seems like Yeson could have done a much better job in that respect. If you don't have any issues with your teeth I wouldn't be concerned at all about the possibility of that happening to you, and there really isn't any risk concerning your voice which as you said as the most important thing.
Phew - I read that thread and it sounded really bad :( - The way they reacted to complications was not nice. I had a similar experience at first with my SRS. Luckily it was the team that was the bad apples and once the surgeon was back into the game, he fixed things very professionally, medically. Still it bugs me now. What if something more severe goes wrong than some knocked out dentalwork. Are they able to fix things that go wrong? If anaesthesia makes problems or if they cut something they are not supposed to? Also Jennys description of a numb tongue bothers me as well - even more than a risk of dmaging teeth (which can be fixed). I am very sensitive to nerve damage. I guess I will at least check back with Berlin to see what they are doing but well my experience with German surgeons is not that much better than what I read there from Kiwi , so I guess it can happen always.
I think I could ignore some of the bad behaviour Kiwi described or just be mad about it but not care, as long as they get a good result and I can be confident that they know how to deal with problems.
Jenny/Abby - I found only a few recordings via Yesons homepage, yours and Abbys and Majas and some korean recordings - are there more somewhere to be found in english, so one can check more of the results? Is there some online platform, forum, mailing list of people who did that to look for information? What did you do to do your research about this procedure and this clinic?
I remember you did that and most of the reports and experiences and reviews you found were very positive and none or few were negative...? Maybe looking at that can help us, too, Esp Sarah who I can tell is nervous now, but maybe also me who is still at the start of saving money for this.
Thanks a lot.
Sarah-
Jessie told me not to sneeze, cough, laugh, yell, or whisper at all during the first 7 days when things are still healing. Dr. Kim says that it's a partial heal in the first 3 days, then a full heal after 7. She encouraged the whoosh thing if I felt like I was going to. A few times though, I just couldn't help it... Then I would have severe anxiety followed by a brief feeling of depression as if maybe I had screwed something up. Luckily, Jessie was quick to respond and tell me that everything would have been okay. I didn't have other people I could share the experience with like everyone will from now on. You probably won't experience much anxiety at all with me & Abby here to reassure you. Lucky!!! ;)
I found that having a water bottle with me at all times to take small fast sips seemed to help a lot.
Anja-
The numb tongue is temporary, Dr. Kim said nothing about a risk of permanent numbness. I think Kiwi's issue is most likely related to the nurse staff because I honestly could not imagine Dr. Kim being mean about anything. He is very gentle with his hands and his words, and in comparison every doctor that I've met in the US seems to have an "I'm a badass surgeon" kind of attitude.. you can just tell they love being rich. Granted, it's not like I've met that many surgeons in the US but that has definitely been a common observable trait. It was obvious to me that Dr. Kim understands you are coming to him for the best possible voice- and that's exactly what he gives you. No way can I picture him being in it for the cash or freaking out about payment.
I as well wished there were more english speaking examples on their youtube, and it was a bit of a worry for me going into it. Maja's voice sounded so perfect to me though, and all the non english speaking examples sounded pretty good to me as well. I guess I took a little bit of a risk, but hearing Maja's voice was enough to give me the confidence I needed. Without her interview video, I probably never would have considered this surgery enough to actually do it. Everything is on their youtube channel, apparently it is hard for them to collect post op recordings from people. And also a lot of people do not wish to be featured on the internet in any way for privacy reasons.
As far as other research, I kept finding little blurbs here and there but it's been so long I forget where I found it. There really wasn't much, and that's also what convinced me to try to thoroughly recite my experience and recovery. There's not much information about it elsewhere yet- that I know of at least! I scoured google searches and youtube for a few months and then all of a sudden I was in Korea having the surgery :)
Quote from: Jennygirl on October 23, 2013, 01:58:57 AM
Anja-
The numb tongue is temporary, Dr. Kim said nothing about a risk of permanent numbness. I think Kiwi's issue is most likely related to the nurse staff because I honestly could not imagine Dr. Kim being mean about anything. [...]
I as well wished there were more english speaking examples on their youtube, and it was a bit of a worry for me going into it. [...] I guess I took a little bit of a risk, but hearing Maja's voice was enough to give me the confidence I needed. Without her interview video, I probably never would have considered this surgery enough to actually do it. Everything is on their youtube channel, apparently it is hard for them to collect post op recordings from people. [...]
As far as other research, I kept finding little blurbs here and there but it's been so long I forget where I found it. There really wasn't much, and that's also what convinced me to try to thoroughly recite my experience and recovery.
Oh wow, ok. I thought you said that there was more evidence out there. I did not know that you basically went in taking a risk by more or less going there on one fine example which is Maja. Now there are three fine examples on their promotion pages and youtube channel and that includes now you and Abby. I am a bit wary though as most info I find on Yeson in that respect is about or from either one of you three or it is promotional fom Yeson. I tend to want some more first hand and third party independent resources. Do you know how many times Yeson has done this procedure? It seems that he did not have that many patients from Europe or the US yet?
I can well imagine that people would not want to have their voices on youtube on that channel for privacy reasons, though I think it would be not so much of an issue as long there does not have to be a face attached. So I dont know what this lack of post op voice recordings in english means. Basically there is not much pre 2010 or so. I mean those examples I hear are all great but I would really like to get a better and unbiased picture there in case I would decide to aim for that procedure.
Re Kiwis experience - I guess you may be right about the nurse staff. This was my SRS experience as well. The surgeon was rather good and professional and did fix me up according to good medical standards, but the nursing staff and assistant surgeons were what caused me problems. I have come now to mostly give less about what they say unless I feel I can trust them. I feel they are just overworked and underpaid and one has to keep his own brain turned on at all times with them generally. I am very anxious about the tongue numbness though. I know that numbness ususally is not meant to be permanent in any surgery but my experience with previous ones is that people will say that it is just temporary but my body decides otherwise and gives me a permanent reminder of my procedures :\ .
Quote from: anjaq on October 23, 2013, 08:34:32 AM
Oh wow, ok. I thought you said that there was more evidence out there. I did not know that you basically went in taking a risk by more or less going there on one fine example which is Maja. Now there are three fine examples on their promotion pages and youtube channel and that includes now you and Abby. I am a bit wary though as most info I find on Yeson in that respect is about or from either one of you three or it is promotional fom Yeson. I tend to want some more first hand and third party independent resources. Do you know how many times Yeson has done this procedure? It seems that he did not have that many patients from Europe or the US yet?
I can well imagine that people would not want to have their voices on youtube on that channel for privacy reasons, though I think it would be not so much of an issue as long there does not have to be a face attached. So I dont know what this lack of post op voice recordings in english means. Basically there is not much pre 2010 or so. I mean those examples I hear are all great but I would really like to get a better and unbiased picture there in case I would decide to aim for that procedure.
Re Kiwis experience - I guess you may be right about the nurse staff. This was my SRS experience as well. The surgeon was rather good and professional and did fix me up according to good medical standards, but the nursing staff and assistant surgeons were what caused me problems. I have come now to mostly give less about what they say unless I feel I can trust them. I feel they are just overworked and underpaid and one has to keep his own brain turned on at all times with them generally. I am very anxious about the tongue numbness though. I know that numbness ususally is not meant to be permanent in any surgery but my experience with previous ones is that people will say that it is just temporary but my body decides otherwise and gives me a permanent reminder of my procedures :\ .
Hi Anjaq,
From what I understand, Yeson operated pretty much solely on Korean MTF patients until a few years ago. It wasn't until Jessie was hired that they started to bring in western patients. She also explained that with the Korean patients, it was much easier to get before and after videos. Part of the cost of surgery is a follow-up appointment within one year and since most of their patients lived in Korea, they would go there for their follow-up and do the "after" recording then. She said it has been much more difficult to get people who never come to their follow-up to record their voice and send it to them.
As far as how many times Yeson has performed the procedure, I don't know for sure. I do know that Dr. Kim has been doing it for at least 7-8 years now though.
When I went in, it was close to 200 patients before me. They seem to have time to do about one per week, but I could be wrong.
Out of everyone, there has only been one patient requiring re-surgery because she tried to yell loudly within the first week and tore a suture... OUCH! Nobody has required a re-surgery from coughing or sneezing or anything.. They just ask you not to do that.
As far as the nurse/office staff, I had nothing but great things to say about them. Jessie was the best & nicest though and made everything gel. You're in great hands, Sarah :D
200 patients is quite a few. Bummer that most of them are Koreans and cannot really easily give their results and experiences to us. I found little bits of about 5 or so people out there who did that. Including Jenny and Abby and Maja. I found 2 reports on the one in Berlin and one from the other German surgeon. They were all rather brief and either said that it changed their life or they stopped reporting a week after the surgery. It is really hard to find info on this it seems, most descriptions online are about the other procedures which are more invasive. I got a possible experience from one person though who might have had that and who was a good frind of a good friend, but I dont know where she did it. She did have a no-incision VFS though and AFAIK all the other procedures do require an incision? However she also got the vocal chords lasered because she was feeling that the first vfs did not give her enough change. The end result was a bit too breathy. My assumption is that this is from the lasering which somehow contracts the vocal chords by forming scar tissue (horrible idea). I will definitely meet with a friend from transition times who did this procedure, just not with Yeson I think. Her voice seems still to be in the same pitch range. I thought it was too high for her overall presentation back then, but maybe that changed or maybe she changed. I have that thing that I think voice has to match the rest. If a person is not very feminine overall, like Jenny is ;) , a very high pitch does not really match up so well. We'll see, I am going to meet her and ask her about her experiences and where she did that. May take a while though, but I will probably make a thread on that if the information is extensive.
Is that one year followup no longer required or why do people not do it? I mean it would be additional costs of course but if it is something one can benefit from, that would have to be included in the calculations.
So here I am...one more week until I no longer have this voice. I can't even find the words to explain the level of excitement I have right now. In just over two weeks I might be able to hear the start of my new voice. Today I'm starting my practice no-talking-coughing-sneezing-laughing-etc phase. Until I leave on Saturday I'm going to act (as much as possible) as if I've already had the surgery. Hopefully this will help me during recovery so it's not so difficult and I can find ways to cope with not being able to do any of that.
I can't help but be paranoid about everything though. One of the first things in their paperwork is saying that surgery can't be done if I have any cold symptoms! Because of that I've resigned myself to be totally reclusive for the next week. I'll be working from home and not leaving unless I absolutely have to. All I can think about is having spent thousands of dollars and all of my emotional energy just to be denied surgery because I get sick! I don't know how I'd cope if that happens. I'm also double, triple, quadruple checking the flight and hotel information to make sure I got all the dates right and everything.
So far everything seems to be in order and I am feeling well. C'mon universe, please don't choose now to throw me a curve ball :-) I'd totally love you forever and ever!
Sarah, I to was worried about getting a cold, but apart from taking reasonable steps (not to get one) I don't think you need to worry.
I suspect that you will be more in awe of the surgery than they will be. it's not a major for them. They do the surgery and provide your room in their centre which is in amongst what seems like thousands of other businesses. You will be taken across the road to have your X-Ray at another facility that you wouldn't expect was there.
It's a month in 2 or 3 days since I had mine.
Make sure they understand if you have any dental work. And for those who follow you, I hope you stand up to them if they call you he or Mr. You might also like to check the medical certificate they give you. Mine says He and then She in the same sentence. It isn't a typo and the rest of their paperwork is in perfectly presented english.
Hope
Sarah, I wish you all the best on this and hope you will be getting there fine and have a good surgery. I felt for a moment the excitement there - knowing that in a week the voice will be gone and be replaced - that is an interesting thought indeed. And of course we expect to hear from you how things go and how your recovery works out and how your voice is doing. Make yure you do all kinds of pre-op recordings to compare, if you will, that would be awsome, so you can compare speaking regularly (in the femme or in a relaxed or even the "original" voice), reading and doing sounds and acting from before and after. Last chance to record all of these now ;)
Best wishes!
@Kiwi - Yeah, I'll definitely not stand for mis-gendering, although it's difficult since I won't be able talk. But even if have to type to them to correct themselves and have respect then that's what I'll do. Fortunately I don't have any dental work so I'm hoping there are no issues there.
@anjaq - Thanks! I've done a bunch of different recordings, but I like some of your suggestions with regard to the types of recordings. I'll have to do some more just to cover those different scenarios. I have a few different rainbow passage ones at different frequencies, some singing in different frequencies, but doing other types would be good to compare with. I'll be updating here as I recover with recordings and comparisons.
Sarah - what I just did - I just held a mic next to me on the phone with a friend. It was quite revealing as it sounds so different from my recordings made deliberatly for voice checking. That may be another reeeeaaly good way to compare actual day to day speaking voice pre and post. :)
Sooo feel you on the sickness anxiety! A week before a few of my roommates started getting colds and I was like STOP DON'T COME ANYWHERE NEAR ME! It was pretty funny to them, but to me I was like NO, SERIOUSLY! ;)
You're going to do fine with the no talking thing. You'll be dying to hear your new voice, but overall the recovery period is so short that three weeks from now will feel like yesterday. The adventure to Seoul helps, too, I think!
Anyway best of luck to you and cannot wait to hear the before and afters starting to roll in!!
Quote from: Jennygirl on November 03, 2013, 06:56:58 PM
Sooo feel you on the sickness anxiety! A week before a few of my roommates started getting colds and I was like STOP DON'T COME ANYWHERE NEAR ME! It was pretty funny to them, but to me I was like NO, SERIOUSLY! ;)
You're going to do fine with the no talking thing. You'll be dying to hear your new voice, but overall the recovery period is so short that three weeks from now will feel like yesterday. The adventure to Seoul helps, too, I think!
Anyway best of luck to you and cannot wait to hear the before and afters starting to roll in!!
Thanks Jenny! I can't wait either, it's crazy that it's so close now. Yeah, I think not talking will be easy, especially since I try to do it as little as possible these days anyways haha. But the not coughing or clearing the throat, I'm finding that to be pretty hard. It seems like it just builds up more and more as I suppress the urges. Drinking water helps a bit, but I didn't realize how often I subconsciously do it throughout the day. That'll be the true test of my patience and willpower! However, I hope you're right that being in Seoul will hopefully keep my mind busy enough to get through the first week without incident, then by that time I'll probably be so used to it that the next couple of weeks will be easier.
Quote from: anjaq on November 03, 2013, 06:30:47 PM
Sarah - what I just did - I just held a mic next to me on the phone with a friend. It was quite revealing as it sounds so different from my recordings made deliberatly for voice checking. That may be another reeeeaaly good way to compare actual day to day speaking voice pre and post. :)
That's a great idea. I'll try and remember to do that sometime this week!
Yes, I think not clearing the throat or coughing is the hardest. I had a throat infection (again) last month and could not speak for 2 days. I decided to improve healing by just following the advice here thinking that it cannot harm when it comes to healing the voice no matter if it is from surgery or infection. Not speaking was really not hard at all - well it was hard to communicate but not hard to stay away from speaking. But all the stuff that builds up in the throat when there is something going on there - in my case infection but I guess this also happens with healing after a surgery - that is vile. I managed to get it a bit controlled with water and just pressing and swallowing in a weird way, but i am not sure if that was better than just coughing a bit. I still could not avoid to occasionally clear the throat :( - so this is really a challenge... I hope you have figured it out Sarah, so you can do the same in Seoul then.
I am excited to hear how it went for you once its done and get a comparison of your recordings :) . I just keep getting warnings of people locally to not do this kind of thing - they are all so opposed to this even though few have actually met someone who had no success with it or even bad luck. It seems to be more of a meme...
Damnit, my worst fear has come true! Yesterday I started feeling scratchiness in my throat and last night I started getting a stuffy nose. Still sick this morning!! Seriously universe, I asked very politely to not throw any curve balls. I really hope it doesn't last long. I have just under a week to get better!
Oh no - that sounds not great. Do you have options to postpone? If I get this recently I found that Zinc+Vitamin C really do wonders. I had some similar "almost getting a cold" feelings a few times now and I fended them off with capsules of 200% daily requirement of Zinc and Vit C twice a day. Yes its overdose but in this case it worked as long as not taken long term. Normally this year I got colds every 4 weeks or so, so I am glad this works for now. Maybe try that and then hope for the best. Also I try to avoid touching anything public if possible - especially public restrooms or commuter trains.
Lots of health to you, Sarah!
Thanks anjaq, I'll try and load up on vitamins. I'm not going out in public until I leave for the airport on Saturday morning so I don't catch anything else! This is either going to be one of the short-term sicknesses or it's going to hit hard in a couple days, since right now it's not too bad. My throat only has a dull ache right now and the stuffiness is hopefully waning already. I hope it's gone by tomorrow though or I'll be stressing out!
So I decided to record a video as another comparison point for pre-op vs. post-op. I'm going to try and record videos throughout the recovery so I can see how the voice progresses week after week.
http://youtu.be/LISWssMipuQ
Sarah- Well on account of how great your voice sounds already (OMG) I think you are definitely going to sound incredible after your surgery with Yeson.
With your current regular feminine voice a little bit low in pitch, it still sounds undeniably feminine already due to having all the other aspects seemingly nailed!) and the vocal relief you get from the shorter vocal cords will be immediately noticeable and natural feeling. You will easily be able to access your feminine voice without fail. My pre-op voice was incredibly lower than yours and now to speak at a similar pitch as you in this video, I have to use the lowest range of my voice. You are gonna love it!
Sad to hear you've been feeling ill. I certainly hope, too, that it clears up. Maybe start taking a good expectorant now as a preventative so you can discourage it from getting caught in your lungs? (that would be the primary concern because you want to avoid cough). Yeson will give you loads and loads of expectorants and cough medications regardless when you get there.
My suggestion to stay or get healthy is eat a diet EXTREMELY low in sugar... as low as possible. Plenty of salads, foods rich in antioxidants (I think pomegranate is in season here in Cali now), and stay away from meat and dairy especially. Also echinacea goldenseal in dropper form (key: alcohol free!) I find to be extremely effective against upper respiratory stuff. I get it at whole foods. For the first couple of days you can take it 10X a day and then drop it down to the recommended dosage which is usually four dropperfulls in one day. I find that the pill form of it really doesn't seem to work the same. With the dropper, tip your head back and drop it right back on your throat. Gargle with it a little bit before swallowing and you can feel its effect from the warmth the echinacea produces. And another benefit of the alcohol free extract is that it tastes a lot better.
Be careful with the vitamins / multivitamins. They'll go straight through you unless you have the enzymes to absorb them properly, which is why it's best to get vitamins straight from proper vegetable nutrition.
If you say away from sugar, you'll knock it out super fast.
Sarah, my goodness your voice is very feminine. Yes, as Jenny says it is a tad low, but i know more than a few women with a similar voice.
Garlic is fantastic btw for colds. Finely chop and crush some cloves of garlic, then add to some warm/hot water. Let it sit for a few minutes and drink! Garlic is naturally antibacterial and anti-fungal, not sure if it's anti-viral but it's fantastic nonetheless. Hope you feel better soon! xx
Yes, I can't believe I forgot about garlic! +1 +1 +1
The finer you mince or crush it the better.. Allicin (the active component) is only released for digestion from traumatizing the clove's structure. Chopping it only two or three times, it will just go straight through you.
Great advice, both of you! I'll get some of that stuff and see how it works. I'm going to fight this cold with everything I can! Thankfully, I think it might be a short-term cold as my throat is already feeling a lot better and the stuffiness has subsided to make way for a runny nose instead, so hopefully it's already on it's way out.
Quote from: SarahR on November 05, 2013, 06:49:17 PM
Great advice, both of you! I'll get some of that stuff and see how it works. I'm going to fight this cold with everything I can! Thankfully, I think it might be a short-term cold as my throat is already feeling a lot better and the stuffiness has subsided to make way for a runny nose instead, so hopefully it's already on it's way out.
Good to hear it's a quick one :D
I wish I had that pre op voice ;) - you already figured out how to get it all right, thats cool. I think you either did not manage to get to your "male" voice there or you started out rather high pitched with it. :) - I see I still have to learn a lot with my voice to get the other things right.
Well, I tried to get to my male voice, lol. If I tried to go any lower I would have definitely been forcing it beyond what would be natural, so maybe I just either have a naturally higher pitch or just speaking for so long in a higher pitch has permanently heightened it.
I had to try like 5 minutes to get down to where I was before to do a recording. It was reaaally odd for me to do this. And it hurt. But it definitely was closer to the "original voice" . So that is kind of proof that for some things voice training seems to work I think - I dont have to consciously think about doing my present voice and still t is way different from the original voice - but not different enough... the higher pitched voice you do - I think it also has even less of the "bad resonance" - not that you have much of this anyways anymore. That voice there fits greatly to you. I bet you will get into that easily later on then and that would be great. I have to prepare myself for another example of this procedure that increases my desire to put my hoped on this rather than on voice training.
Quote from: anjaq on November 05, 2013, 08:08:10 PM
I had to try like 5 minutes to get down to where I was before to do a recording. It was reaaally odd for me to do this. And it hurt. But it definitely was closer to the "original voice" . So that is kind of proof that for some things voice training seems to work I think - I dont have to consciously think about doing my present voice and still t is way different from the original voice - but not different enough... the higher pitched voice you do - I think it also has even less of the "bad resonance" - not that you have much of this anyways anymore. That voice there fits greatly to you. I bet you will get into that easily later on then and that would be great. I have to prepare myself for another example of this procedure that increases my desire to put my hoped on this rather than on voice training.
I definitely agree that voice training is still necessary even with VFS. I think VFS is good to get the voice to a point where you can focus most of the energy on practicing resonance, intonation, etc. instead of pitch, although I think even those are easier to get into once you don't have to focus on the pitch as much. And for some, voice training is enough for them to have a passable feminine voice that they can feel comfortable with. For me though I don't feel comfortable with it even if it does sound mostly feminine to others. There's also those times when I don't sound feminine like coughing, sneezing, yelling, crying, etc. that I don't feel I can change enough without surgery.
I do like how the higher-pitched voice sounds and if I end up somewhere near there (which I think I will, based on the results I've heard so far) then I'll be really happy. Even if I just go up by like 30-40Hz I think it'll put me in a range that I could feel comfortable with. I want to say that right now my average speaking voice is probably between 150-165Hz, and I don't try that hard to even get it there really, so if I go up by just 40Hz I'd still be just under 200Hz, which would be fantastic!
It sounds to me like you've pretty much already made up your mind about having this procedure :) Keep up those savings transfers and you'll be in South Korea in no time!
Also, I'm feeling a bit better today and I'm optimistic that my cold will be gone by this weekend. I've been taking Mucinex and vitamin C and not eating sugar like you all suggested. Although I couldn't bring myself to drink warm water with garlic in it, ewww! It's getting down to the wire now with only about 4 days until my pre-op consultation, which I'm assuming if I'm still sick by then they'll say I can't have the surgery. OMG, just saying that as a possibility is so depressing!
Quote from: SarahR on November 06, 2013, 10:38:36 AM
For me though I don't feel comfortable with it even if it does sound mostly feminine to others. There's also those times when I don't sound feminine like coughing, sneezing, yelling, crying, etc. that I don't feel I can change enough without surgery.
totally makes sense yes. People keep telling me that after a VFS you cannot yell anymore and some sounds will still sound as before as they are only about the resonance and not vocal cords, but I guess you all here will be able to tell the story which of that is true, false or somewhat right.
QuoteIt sounds to me like you've pretty much already made up your mind about having this procedure :) Keep up those savings transfers and you'll be in South Korea in no time!
Aw dont say that. You should not. I mean I totally crave for results like Jenny and really that thought of having an absolutely female voice without effort is one of my biggest wishes... But I also know that I should not go by specially made recordings on the internet but rather at some point have to meet people who actually did this and who are totally open about the downsides of it as well, so I can make a proper judgement. I possibly am going to stay in my job which includes teaching and this is a big fat warning on the general websites about VFS that it is not for teachers :\ . I guess I really have to wait for the results of therapy. Recently people have told me several times that my resonance is the problem and I noticed that if I make the effort to clean out the resonance, my F0 also goes up a bit, so maybe since I will have to change resonance in any case, the side effect would be pitch increase and then I dont need it.
I still wish you all the best and good healing. Hopefully having had a cold some days before is not an issue?
Anja- I agree with Sarah. I think you've mulled over Yeson more than all of us combined and you should just be honest with yourself about wanting to have it rather than keep talking yourself out of it ;)
Maybe it's time to ditch the idea of having it in Germany (where it sounds like the results are unpredictable / sketchy) and go for the real thing. Voice therapy is always a great idea though and I'm not trying to say you should stop doing that.
You mentioned sounding the same as you do now. Well, it's true you will sound similar. But honestly, that's the best part- you're not going to sound like mickey mouse. You'll sound like a naturally higher version of yourself. All of my friends said that they loved my voice because it wasn't too jarring (believe it or not) and that they weren't thrown off by the way my voice sounded one bit... That it just sounded female and that was it.
My voice has gradually grown into feminity in front of others no doubt, but it's been a slow and natural feeling process to both me and them. One of the greatest things is that I still sound like myself.
Sorry about the first part of the message. I'm not trying to peer pressure you into it, ya just gotta understand from our perspective- it seems silly for you to keep talking yourself out of it. At this point you know as much as you will know about Yeson.. shy of actually having the surgery yourself or meeting someone in person that has been through it. Once again, sorry, I'm not trying to pressure you- just giving you an outside perspective!
Quote from: Jennygirl on November 06, 2013, 01:46:14 PM
Anja- I agree with Sarah. I think you've mulled over Yeson more than all of us combined and you should just be honest with yourself about wanting to have it rather than keep talking yourself out of it ;)
Of course I WANT it ::) - well if I get a really good result, then I want it. Its just - I dont know if I will get a good result and I dont know if I could maybe do without and save the money, pain and risk. Everyone I try to mention this to tries to scare me away from it. One even said that she knows someone where the Y-suture failed and in the end she went to Dr Thomas in Portland who fixed that. Its the only time I heard by now that a Y suture failed and I could not get more info on where, why or how, but it leaves a bit of a dark spot on the procedure. I cannot afford getting this wrong if I am going to teach and I still need to know if I really cannot do it with training alone - 99% or so of the MtFs seem to do it that way and do fine, after all.
QuoteMaybe it's time to ditch the idea of having it in Germany (where it sounds like the results are unpredictable / sketchy) and go for the real thing. Voice therapy is always a great idea though and I'm not trying to say you should stop doing that.
I have not yet heard anything real solid on the things in Germany. I got no reply from the clinic in Berlin that I asked for informaiton, but I guess I overloaded them with all my questions for voice examples and such. I already am putting 500 EU, that is like $700 or so aside now monthly to fill a savings account, in case I need it for this. If not, I can make a nice vacatio and buy a new car if mine breaks down. I am trying to get an appointment for voice therapy for next month a few days after the visit at the voice clinic here where I want to have checked why I am missing some pitch zones and have such a roughness in the voice. if that is really just still a lack of resonance control or some problem with the vocal cords. I guess if voice therapy goes well, I might be able to get a good voice out of it, then I will have to decide if I want to still do a surgery on that voice or not. The worst case is tha tI get no improvement and then I also dont know if I should do the surgery. After all, resonance control is still up to me. Overall I feel uncertain still, even though I am a bit hyped up on your reports here and long for such a good and in a way easy solution to the wretched voice problem.
Quote
You mentioned sounding the same as you do now. Well, it's true you will sound similar. But honestly, that's the best part- you're not going to sound like mickey mouse. You'll sound like a naturally higher version of yourself. All of my friends said that they loved my voice because it wasn't too jarring (believe it or not) and that they weren't thrown off by the way my voice sounded one bit... That it just sounded female and that was it.
:D *sigh*
QuoteSorry about the first part of the message. I'm not trying to peer pressure you into it, ya just gotta understand from our perspective- it seems silly for you to keep talking yourself out of it. At this point you know as much as you will know about Yeson.. shy of actually having the surgery yourself or meeting someone in person that has been through it.
Oh that would be plus indeed. I am still learning from you all here about your results and how they come along. You really think it is silly of me to talk myself out of it? Sigh. Meh - a friend of mine was saying "oh you will do the surgery in Korea" after I talked a bit about it and mentioned I am savin money just in case I cold use it if I need to. He was quite certain I would do it LOL - why does everyone think so, just because I keep talking about it all the time I guess.
I guess all I want is a full, female , natural sounding and feeling voice that is achievable without too much effort. I need that. If therapy can give me that I am taking it. I suspect it will not or they claim that it will be if I do 100 hours until I get used to doing it all the time. The greatest peer pressure ATM is here in Germany where no one ever tells me anything but that VFS is a bad idea generally or at least totally unneeded. I guess part of why I am mulling over it so much is just that its been 13 years since SRS now and I am sick of having to deal with this still. Maybe its just my fault because I never did proper professional voice training over a long period of time... ah IDK - you might be right in the end. The idea of going to Yeson kind of nested in my head and is not leaving easily...
anajq, I think you're going about it the right way by focusing on voice training first. I actually do think it's bad to talk yourself out of it though, if it's really something you want. You shouldn't ever try to talk yourself out of anything, instead you should always strive to simply weigh the pros and cons and decide based on that which direction you prefer...this goes for anything in your life, not just whether to get VFS. However, if you've already decided that the pros outweigh the cons yet are still trying to talk yourself out of it for some reason then that doesn't sound healthy.
In the end, like Jenny said, unless you actually try to get face-to-face interactions and testimonials from those who have had it done then all you have to go on is what you can find here and around the internet. That's really all we ever have to go on most of the time, and that's why for a lot of us it's a time-consuming and exhaustive process of elimination before we decide on any procedure whether it's VFS, SRS, FFS, etc.
I would say just continue doing what you're doing. Get started on professional voice training and see how that goes. Continue to add to your savings just in case. In that case you'll keep both options covered and can decide later on whether voice training was enough or not. Depending on how long that goes for there might even be more testimonials from Yeson that could strengthen (or not) your desire to have it done.
Quote from: anjaq on November 06, 2013, 05:45:56 PM
The idea of going to Yeson kind of nested in my head and is not leaving easily...
I kinda sensed that ;) Lol!
Sounds like you are on the right track w/ what you want. That's all that matters.
So after much thought, I've decided that I'm going to take the chance and carry the surgery payment with me in cash. I know it's a lot of money to carry around, but I can't get over the fact that my luck so far hasn't been stellar. I've gotten sick a week before surgery. I've had to have my bank put a note on my account three times to make sure my card doesn't get declined. All I can think about is the fact that I'll get there and be all excited and happy only to have my cards be declined and not be able to have the surgery!
Seriously, I cannot wait until this is all done and over with and I can finally breath a sigh of relief knowing that nothing can get in the way anymore. Only 5 days until I can stop worrying!
Quote from: SarahR on November 06, 2013, 07:11:08 PM
So after much thought, I've decided that I'm going to take the chance and carry the surgery payment with me in cash. I know it's a lot of money to carry around, but I can't get over the fact that my luck so far hasn't been stellar. I've gotten sick a week before surgery. I've had to have my bank put a note on my account three times to make sure my card doesn't get declined. All I can think about is the fact that I'll get there and be all excited and happy only to have my cards be declined and not be able to have the surgery!
Seriously, I cannot wait until this is all done and over with and I can finally breath a sigh of relief knowing that nothing can get in the way anymore. Only 5 days until I can stop worrying!
Hey just be careful, it's going to be quite the wad of cash. I think it's a great idea though- especially if you are getting picked up from the airport. You'll probably save at least $250 in conversion fees, too. That's like getting food for free while you are there.
Lol @ "5 days until I can stop worrying". You haven't experienced anything yet. Prepare yourself for the after-surgery "oh crap I hope that didn't mess something up!!" ;)
It's going to be great, Sarah! I'm excited for you. Your voice is going to sound incredible out of the gates when you start to getting volume back.
Sarah,
I am assuming you are in the US. Be aware that if you carry more than $10,000 in cash and or checks you have to fill out IRS form 105 and turn it in to Customs at your departure (from US) airport. If you do not declare it then Customs can seize it if they find it (maybe at security?)
If something goes wrong in Korea and you fly back with say $12,000 in undeclared currency then it will be a huge problem.
Whoa!
Cash three lotto number in my last post. Post number 105 about IRS form 105.........Gotta be a sign!
Jenny, I'm going to hold on to that wad of cash at all times until I'm in the hotel room, at which point it's going straight into the safe! It'll be nice to hand over the responsibility for it to Jessie, lol! Yeah, I'm sure I'll have tons of stuff to worry about post-op, so don't go anywhere :) I'll need your support to reassure me that I haven't completely screwed up the surgery, haha!
RachelAnne, that's funny! 105 must be a lucky number today. I know about the $10,000 limit. I'm only going to be bringing $7,500 so I should be fine. I have been researching the TSA and security procedures and am aware that I may get questioned about why I am traveling with so much cash but as long as I'm honest and don't cause them issues then I should be fine. Thanks for the heads up though :)
Not a problem Sarah. I had my FFS in Argentina two years ago and I took traveler's checks. I had my form ready and took it down to Customs at ATL and turned it in. They then scowled at me while they checked every single serial number on 250 checks.
I don't think customs would even notice unless you were carrying gold bars or something. It's not worth mentioning to them.
Either way like you said yes you are under the limit so no worries. I'm sure you won't be questioned at all :)
And yes I'll be here for ya ;) No worries at all
Sarah, can YVC take American Express Traveler's Checks? Those are far safer to carry. You might want to call and see?
Quote from: SarahR on November 05, 2013, 08:51:18 AM
Damnit, my worst fear has come true! Yesterday I started feeling scratchiness in my throat and last night I started getting a stuffy nose. Still sick this morning!! Seriously universe, I asked very politely to not throw any curve balls. I really hope it doesn't last long. I have just under a week to get better!
Lots of rest and plenty of fluids!
Jenny,
Hello from a Newbie. I'm Rachel and I am planning on a trip to Yeson early next year. I was originally planning VFS with Dr. Thomas but everything I googled kept coming up Yeson and tons of links pointed me here. I think I have gone over everything here about Yeson and have a few questions if you don't mind answering a few more.
Quote from: LizMarie on November 06, 2013, 09:32:12 PM
Sarah, can YVC take American Express Traveler's Checks? Those are far safer to carry. You might want to call and see?
No, they explicitly say they only take cash USD, credit card, or wire transfer. Unfortunately cash is the least stressful method of payment for me at this point. So long as I don't lose it, there's no chance of being declined like a credit card.
Quote from: RachelAnne on November 06, 2013, 09:41:08 PM
Jenny,
Hello from a Newbie. I'm Rachel and I am planning on a trip to Yeson early next year. I was originally planning VFS with Dr. Thomas but everything I googled kept coming up Yeson and tons of links pointed me here. I think I have gone over everything here about Yeson and have a few questions if you don't mind answering a few more.
Yeah no problem at all :)
Feel free to use any of the open threads here, I will see it!
Sarah,
When I went to Argentina I took traveler's checks. The doctors coordinator went with me to the bank and we converted them to cash right there and she had the cash when we left the bank.
Jenny,
Thanks so much. I was hoping you were not sick of questions yet.
Ok, did you book directly through Yeson or one of the medical tour companies that handle all the details and a coordinator is always available? Good idea either way?
Will not owning a cell phone be a problem? I will have my Ipad.
Any recommendations on lodging? Hopefully someplace with western toilets. The Japanese style ones would be murder at my age.
I do plan on seeing my dentist before I leave and have all my crowns checked. Might take a note stating their condition.
I will have my daughter with me. I adopted her from Korea 26 years ago when she was a baby. She has not been back and speaks no Korean but just having someone who appears to be local may make moving around less conspicuous.
Finally, how was the anesthesia? When I went to Argentina I had surgery on Wednesday and was supposed to spend a night in the hospital. I woke up on Sunday and spent a week in intensive care with no real explanation. Since I have been home I've had anesthesia twice with no problems at all. I'm hoping Korea will be more on the same level as we are here and I can avoid a problem like that again.
Thanks a bunch!!
Gee - reading these threads always makes me feel weirdly emotional and somewhat excited - this is what always gets me - such feelings mean something usually and this is why I said that it "nested in me head" ;) - Thanks for your words, Jenny and Sarah.
Quote from: SarahR on November 06, 2013, 06:21:20 PM
I actually do think it's bad to talk yourself out of it though, if it's really something you want. You shouldn't ever try to talk yourself out of anything, instead you should always strive to simply weigh the pros and cons and decide based on that which direction you prefer...this goes for anything in your life, not just whether to get VFS. However, if you've already decided that the pros outweigh the cons yet are still trying to talk yourself out of it for some reason then that doesn't sound healthy.
Well - what I want is to live without worrying about my voice and have a good voice. Thats what I want. I dont want surgery, it is more a thing that may be needed to get what I want. And the trick now is to find out if it is needed or not, if I can manage without or if I would be much happier with surgery. That has to match up with the risks and downsides involved in doing it. The pros and cons - well yes, I am collecting them, I try to collect them, though there is little to go on except you folks here ;) and some of the less than good reports from my home country. I will try and meet someone who did the Y suture probably in Berlin 10 years ago and see what she says (and how ;) ). Its not Yeson and its 10 years ago. I remember she sounded quite a bit too high pitched right after the procedure though, I guess they did a bit too much of suturing or maybe she got several procedures done at the same time (plus she smoked (!) in the weeks after VFS :shock: ) . Anyways - pros and cons. I try to find them with the limited reports I get. In the end like all such decisions it is one that will be made from the heart and intuition with me. i know this - I can read all the pros and cons and try to make an informed decision but if my heart comes into play, some of that is just ignored ;) - this is what is worrying me a bit. When I read this here and hear it - my heart goes "I want this; Get it; Now;" ;) - and my mind tries to say "we have to look at the pros and cons and if there are too many cons we have to decline it" - and then my heart says "I dont care, I want it; Screw the Cons". LOL - often my heart wins in these fights. Especially now so long post transition ;) - Often it is right, the intuition but sometimes it is dead wrong, so I dont want to be "mindless" about it.
Re the cash - I was also thinking that maybe taking traveller checks and convert them right before payment would be an option that is safer? But it costs a large fee I think, right? But be safe - I guess many people know that there are Westerners with very big pockets walking around in that district with all the plastic surgeons and such...
Since I just read another date is due for Rachel in just 3 months (yay - more examples to listen to :) - hopefully, Rachel?) - how long does it take from calling them first to actually going there - whats the waiting list. Do you need to plan a year in advance ?
In the end, like Jenny said, unless you actually try to get face-to-face interactions and testimonials from those who have had it done then all you have to go on is what you can find here and around the internet. That's really all we ever have to go on most of the time, and that's why for a lot of us it's a time-consuming and exhaustive process of elimination before we decide on any procedure whether it's VFS, SRS, FFS, etc.
I would say just continue doing what you're doing. Get started on professional voice training and see how that goes. Continue to add to your savings just in case. In that case you'll keep both options covered and can decide later on whether voice training was enough or not. Depending on how long that goes for there might even be more testimonials from Yeson that could strengthen (or not) your desire to have it done.
[/quote]
Ooh, that's a good thought, Rachel! Carry traveler's checks for safety and convert to cash once in country. I need to make note of that.
Quote from: RachelAnne on November 06, 2013, 10:30:41 PM
Jenny,
Thanks so much. I was hoping you were not sick of questions yet.
Ok, did you book directly through Yeson or one of the medical tour companies that handle all the details and a coordinator is always available? Good idea either way?
Directly through Yeson, it was the only way I knew how to do it
Quote
Will not owning a cell phone be a problem? I will have my Ipad.
I survived okay with an iPad :)
Quote
Any recommendations on lodging? Hopefully someplace with western toilets. The Japanese style ones would be murder at my age.
I stayed at a place called Hotel Prince Seoul, but I think Abby had better and closer accommodations. For me it was about 1,300 for the two of us for the stay
Quote
I do plan on seeing my dentist before I leave and have all my crowns checked. Might take a note stating their condition.
Probably a great idea if you have invested money in your teeth. It's a real risk
Quote
I will have my daughter with me. I adopted her from Korea 26 years ago when she was a baby. She has not been back and speaks no Korean but just having someone who appears to be local may make moving around less conspicuous.
That might indeed help! When I was there my friend knew someone who lived close by. Even though she was American, she knew the ropes and for some reason we got less stares when we were with her. She also assured us that it's not weird to be stared at in the first place.
Quote
Finally, how was the anesthesia? When I went to Argentina I had surgery on Wednesday and was supposed to spend a night in the hospital. I woke up on Sunday and spent a week in intensive care with no real explanation. Since I have been home I've had anesthesia twice with no problems at all. I'm hoping Korea will be more on the same level as we are here and I can avoid a problem like that again.
Thanks a bunch!!
There is a risk of becoming violent while you are under, and that puts risk on dental as well due to the endoscopic tube being in your mouth. That instrument is made from stainless steel.
Dr Kim will describe these risks to you in detail during your pre-op exam, or you could ask Jessie for them now.
She has been very responsive in my experience with her- until this last time which took her a week and a half to get back. In her email, she mentioned that they've been booking many more patients. So it's possible that she has a lot of messages in her inbox right now, but she will get back to you. My message was just a check in, too, so a quick response wasn't necessary anyway.
I would send her an email though, she can answer your questions best and her English is great.
I knew I forgot one.....any trouble swallowing pills afterwards?
No trouble swallowing here. There is minimal swelling from this procedure- very minimally sized surgical area.
Good news: I'm now about 99.9% free of sickness, just some final clearing out of the system. Finally!
Bad news: My sister (who is going with me) has also had a cold since Monday! Seriously, f*** my life! Now I have to worry about catching ANOTHER cold from her! She also recently got over the flu. She did get antibiotics and is done taking those so apparently she shouldn't be contagious with that, or so I hear. I read up on colds and it's said that it's the most contagious within the first 3 days, so since it'll be about 5 days since she got the cold then I may be fine. Plus, if it's the same strain then I should already have the antibodies and shouldn't get it. However, there are apparently over 200 different viruses that cause the common cold.
Damn, all this couldn't happen like a month ago!?! Ok, 2 days until my consultation, 3 days until the surgery. Please, PLEASE, PLEASE let me not get sick again! Ugh, I can't take any more of this stress :(
When they ask you if you're sick, just say no. As long as you are not congested and coughing it doesn't matter.
Yer gonna do fine :)
Hmm- i guess you may want to avoid too close contact with her if that worries you. If you share a room in the hotel, maybe make sure the beds are separated and that you use the bathroom always first in the morning during your stay there. Always wash hands thoroughly. Keep taking your Vitamins and Zinc (maybe not the garlic if you want someone to operate in your throat ;) ), especially after the surgery and I would guess your worries now are more about getting an infection after the surgery and then having to cough.I have often seen people in Asia use these Paper facemasks to protect the breath - is that for avoiding infections? Maybe that is a more severe action to consider if that is so and makes sense (could be nonsense of course, better read up on it). The worst thing I guess is to not worry too much because the stress this causes is not helping either. Yeah I know thats easier said...
You have my best wishes - seems like you will be leaving really soon and then maybe report back from Korea? :) . Have a good time there.
I will keep an eye or an ear on you all here. Though I just had a talk with an old TS friend of mine who I just met. She tried to "wash my head" (if you know the saying in english) about changing my voice. She thinks it fits the rest of me very well because i am big and not that young and it would be bad if I had a very high voice that would not fit that. Sigh. So IDK anymore - she even thinks I dont need voice therapy, but I will definitely do that for sure. Anyways not to talk too much on that ;) - I send you all the best wishes Sarah to fend off all bacteria and viruses!
Doooont eat garlic after nonono. It's spicy and it will inflamate the surgical area as well as produce phlegm- which you will already have enough of to deal with for those first 3 days in recovery.
Just take it easy and eat as bland as possible. If you want to take vitamins during recovery, ask Dr Kim on the day of the exam. You don't want a drug interaction or something that could thin blood / impede healing.
I'm at the San Francisco airport. The flight takes off in about an hour. Still feeling good health-wise. Just a couple more days now and it'll all be done with (hopefully). Thanks again everyone for your support and suggestions for me to get better. I'm feeling optimistic that everything will work out in the end.
I'll post an update after I have my pre-op exam and of course after the surgery itself. Here we go!
Hope you have a nice flight Sarah! Wishing you all the best :)
All the best, Sarah! - Have a good flight and safe journey!
Good Luck Sarah!
I hope it goes well for you (it's not a major operation) but the results are so worth it.
Hope. :)
Thanks everyone. I'm at the hotel now. Seriously, that had to be the easiest process ever. It took about 15 minutes to get through immigration, another 5 minutes to pick up the cell phone rental, maybe 15 minutes waiting for the next bus, and then a quick little jaunt from the bus stop to the hotel. The room is pretty crazy too. It has one of those touch screen panels where you control everything! It's cozy, everything is hidden behind panels in the walls that you slide to reveal.
The flight actually wasn't horrible. The first 8 or so hours went by pretty quick and painlessly. However, I was getting pretty tired near the end of the flight but didn't really want to sleep since it was around 5pm when I landed and I didn't want to stay up all night. I'm a bit groggy from the day of travel, so it feels nice to lay in bed at the hotel. I'm about to knock out, but wanted to give an update.
Woohoo, tomorrow I get to finally meet Jessie and Dr. Kim!
Yay congratulations! I'm glad everything went smoothly. The hotel room is pretty neat, huh?
Keep us updated on your appointment tomorrow, and tell Jessie I said hi!!
Quote from: abbyt89 on November 10, 2013, 09:29:12 AM
Yay congratulations! I'm glad everything went smoothly. The hotel room is pretty neat, huh?
Keep us updated on your appointment tomorrow, and tell Jessie I said hi!!
Yeah, the hotel is awesome!
So the appointment went GREAT today! The staff was so nice and Jessie is sooooo helpful in answering all your questions. She even walked us to a great red bean place and helped us order our food. Jessie also showed us places to go around town. I'm just really, really impressed with everything here. Dr. Kim explained everything in so much detail, showed us videos of the procedure, examples of the pre- and post-op results, and explained what he'll be doing. He said because my frequency is already higher than average that the 1/3 suture is fine. Interestingly, he also noted that my vocal folds are shorter than the average male. I guess that makes sense with how high my frequency is.
The results of my exam matched surprisingly pretty well what I had measured beforehand. My median frequency was 154Hz and my frequency when doing a higher-pitched voice was 197Hz. He said after the surgery I should fall around 229Hz! This is going to be AMAZING after the surgery. I can't believe it's tomorrow!!!
I'm having such a great time in Seoul. Jenny, you're right about the style here, damn they know how to dress. Even the symbols for male and female for the bathrooms were wearing a suit and cocktail dress, haha! And everything is so easy to navigate. I haven't had any issue getting around here with taking the bus, taxi, and subway.
So to sum it up, Seoul is awesome, Yeson is awesome, and I'm definitely going to be coming back here in the future. I'll keep you all updated after the surgery. Yaaay!
Major WOOT!
Glad to hear the exam went well and you are enjoying accommodations. Also hearing about Jessie makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. I want to go back! Wish I could be there with you tomorrow!
And also no vocal tremor nor issues with your vocal cords? That's great. Sounds like you won't need the botox :D
Actually, I do have a vocal tremor and will need Botox. There are also some other issues with them related to my longer history of speaking with the higher pitch, it's affected my vocal chords. He said it will be better after the surgery, which is great. He also showed me how I have to use so much more strength to push air through because of that, that I can't hold a note for long (like 11-13 seconds compared to a normal person of 20 seconds).
I think that alone will be such a great relief, not having to force so much, which will take a lot of stress off my vocal chords and throat. I'm sooo curious to see how different it'll be after the surgery in not only the voice, but just the general feeling of talking and relaxing of the throat.
Good luck Sarah! :)
Ah I am so happy for you!
Good luck with everything . I wish you all the best!
Quote from: SarahR on November 11, 2013, 03:14:04 AM
He said because my frequency is already higher than average that the 1/3 suture is fine. [...] My median frequency was 154Hz and my frequency when doing a higher-pitched voice was 197Hz. He said after the surgery I should fall around 229Hz!
Thats awesome. Your frequency is already at where I am with my changed voice, wow, that is really high. What would they do if the start is lower? actually reduce it more than 1/3? That sounds a bit much then...
Quote from: SarahR on November 11, 2013, 04:54:59 AM
There are also some other issues with them related to my longer history of speaking with the higher pitch, it's affected my vocal chords. He said it will be better after the surgery, which is great. He also showed me how I have to use so much more strength to push air through because of that, that I can't hold a note for long (like 11-13 seconds compared to a normal person of 20 seconds).
You mean that would stop after the surgery so you can at the same voice actually speak louder? That would be a neat effect - given that people keep telling me that most VFS reduces loudness of the voice. If that is the opposite - yay! :)
QuoteI'm sooo curious to see how different it'll be after the surgery in not only the voice, but just the general feeling of talking and relaxing of the throat.
Yeah - that would be something for a change - actually relax the throat. Though I guess resonance control still needs to be applied so some tension has to be there still...
Again all the best!
Quote from: anjaq on November 11, 2013, 09:51:52 AM
Ah I am so happy for you!
Good luck with everything . I wish you all the best!
Thats awesome. Your frequency is already at where I am with my changed voice, wow, that is really high. What would they do if the start is lower? actually reduce it more than 1/3? That sounds a bit much then...
I assume if I had a lower frequency he would suture more of the vocal folds, based on the fact that he actually stated it like, "...1/3 is sufficient" which leads me to believe it's variable based on the original frequency. I would think it would range between 1/3 and 1/2. I believe Jenny had just about 1/2 sutured and she sounds amazing, so it depends on the person.
Quote from: anjaq on November 11, 2013, 09:51:52 AM
You mean that would stop after the surgery so you can at the same voice actually speak louder? That would be a neat effect - given that people keep telling me that most VFS reduces loudness of the voice. If that is the opposite - yay! :)
Yeah - that would be something for a change - actually relax the throat. Though I guess resonance control still needs to be applied so some tension has to be there still...
That's what it sounded like! It makes sense too, since he showed me how much force I used to get phonation compared to normal and I was having to use like 3-4 times the amount. So after the surgery, since I won't have to strain at all to get a feminine voice, I can use that extra power for loudness as opposed to just creating the phonation to begin with.
By the way, the cell phone rental was a really good idea. Even though there's WiFi almost everywhere (seriously), its still nice in some areas where there is none or its slow, then I just use LTE and do what I need. It's so cheap and it's unlimited data that I see no reason not to.
The area in Gangnam is way cool. There are a ton of coffee shops, cafés, and other things along the streets. Also something I noticed, even though it's like downtown, big city, it's surpringly quiet! I would have expected something like New York but nope, there's like barely anyone talking on cell phones, no horns honking from cars, etc. It's kind of peaceful. I've also not noticed a ton of people staring. Every now and then I'll see someone look my way, but not as much as I had expected.
The subway is excellent as well. It's super quick and easy to get the ticket and trains come like every 2 minutes it seems. They make it really simple to follow the routes to get you where you need to go with color-coding and a numbering system.
I'm enjoying Seoul so much! I'm happy I still have another week to travel around and see the different areas and stuff and I won't be bed-ridden like with other surgeries. It may have been expensive to travel here, but I feel like I'm on vacation and I just happen to be getting a surgery done at the same time, lol.
Ok, I'm done droning about Seoul...I still need to try to get some sleep! I have to be up in like 4 hours! I guess I still haven't re-accustomed myself to the new time zone.
Sooo excited for you Sarah. I have a feeling that your result is going to be amazing :)
And yes he did about 1/2 on mine for a couple of reasons...
1) I had visible damage (blood hemorrhage) to my right vocal cord about 3/8 of the way up. Suturing above this damaged area means that only the good parts of the vocal cords would be used from now on.
2) I was concerned about my trach shave somehow lessening my result. So to air on the side of effectiveness of surgery, I told him that I would rather be too high than too low.
I'm pretty sure that your surgery is in less than 3 hours, so I'll be thinking of you today! Also doing a little prayer to bid farewell to your 154hz voice. If your result is anything like mine (as I'm sure it will be), your lowest pitch will be around the fundamental of your old voice. So, you'll only be able to hit 154hz if you really stretch for it ;)
Thanks Jenny!
That makes sense about how much you got done. Yep, 3 hours from now I should be going into surgery! That's crazy to think that I have only 3 more hours until 154Hz (or higher maybe) is the lowest I can go. Woohoo, so excited. I haven't gotten much sleep but I feel surprisingly rested anyways.
I'll post an update once I'm able to after the surgery.
Looking forward to it, Sarah :)
Wow - soon it is time :)
154 Hz at the lowest, thats neat. You can still do some voices then but are not stuck at that anymore that sounds great. I guess that 154 was your F0 when you did a "male voice" e.g. totally not doing the regular thing to raise pitch?
I am feeling a bit weird because my present voice that I can hardly slip out of is about 150 Hz too, but I still can to the lower register if I really try to and that is at 100 Hz (averaged in praat). Which frequency would be choosen as a base? If it is the 100 Hz, I guess i would have to go 1/2 as well, which I guess translates to a bigger loss in pitch range and volume?
The thing about increasing volumen because using less force makes sense. I will ask about that in the voice clinic in 3 weeks at the checkup. I guess that training may be able to correct this as well to some degree. Gawd this is going to be weird, I am sure they will make me talk in my old voice again... :\
When will you be able to see Seoul? - You probably will have a day rest or so after the surgery and then you can be up again?
Sarah, I really hope everything turns out wonderfully for you. I am taking every tip I can from yourself and Jenny so I will be ready to go in Jan/Feb. You make Seoul sound terrific. It will definitely be a great vacation.
On a side note I just saw my cardiologist today for clearance for a different surgery and ran this by him. He replied that it is certainly low risk and would not be a problem. Even said; "It makes a lot of sense..I should have thought of it"
Thanks so much for your running diary. I will keep you in my prayers.
And tons of thanks to Jenny for all her posts. If they weren't out there in Googleland I never would have found out about this miraculous procedure.
Aww that makes me smile Rachel!
It's pretty neat being able to share the experience with others going through it.
This is also a wonderful example of what makes online forums like susans so great. What I had to do was for the most part very easy (making a new thread), and immediately people were benefitting from the information all over the world. The only thing that was hard for me was not having much information on it myself, but my judgment of the procedure lead me to believe it was safe and effective. Honestly without Maja's video I probably wouldn't have done it. Y'all should be thanking her, too, for being the first English speaking patient to record her accounts with Yeson ;)
Knowing exactly what my nerves felt like about 10 minutes pre op (as Sarah is now) is trippy and exciting in a really cool way :)
Thinking so many good thoughts for you right now Sarah! I'm tootally there with you in spirit!
Thanks Jenny!
Another quick question....how exactly is everyone finding out or measuring their voice frequency?
I hope I don't have to scour Craigslist for an oscilloscope.
Sarah, if my time math is correct you are about to have your surgery! Good luck and see you on the other side! :)
As for your appointment yesterday, your starting pitch is so favorable I can't imagine you having anything but the most amazing sounding voice when all is said and done. So enjoy Seoul but get back and get better so we can hear your new voice!!
Done!!!
My throat hurts. An hour or so until I can drink water.
Jenny/Abby, how long does the sore throat last? Or at least how long until it dulls down a bit? I feel like every time I swallow I'm going to mess up the suture, lol.
Yay it's over with!!
The sore throat for me lasted less than 24 hours. I think the next morning I woke up and felt maybe a super slight sore throat.
It was definitely the worst the first few hours after surgery - especially for me because my stupid self started coughing and tried to talk when I first woke up for the surgery. I tried to ask if they did the surgery yet because I was so out of it lol.
Hi Sarah! SO HAPPY to hear everything went well! Luckily the throat pain goes away fast. You'll feel a lot better by the time you are allowed to leave, but it will be somewhat sore for a couple of days. Almost like the feeling of when you have a lump in your throat about to cry.
My thoughts are with you :)
Let me know if you have any questions. Watching this thread like a hawk in case you need anything
So apparently I only coughed a few times, mostly with just air, but once or twice with some sound. Jessie said it was normal (to my sister, since I was still out of it).
It's a strange feeling. It mostly feels like a normal sore throat, but there's an extra bit of foreign-body sensation when I swallow.
That is probably the swelling you are feeling. It should go down fast. I had some trouble swallowing during the first 24
Oh my god, I just have to say WOOT that it's finally done. I seriously flew to Seoul with my thoughts mainly on the fact that I was still feeling a little sickness and expecting fully not to be able to have the surgery. I was already trying to plan when I would be able to come back in January or something.
But the day I flew in I totally got fully better and the next day (consultation) I was 100%. Now it's DONE and no more worries about that. Now I can start worrying about not messing it up, haha!
I want to THANK YOU all for the well-wishes and Abby and Jenny for all of the info and help. It's been an amazing journey so far. Start the countdown clock...1 month until I can have general conversation.
That's right, you made it! Now the easy part.. Just have to wait out the recovery!
So other than the sore throat, after that's gone is there any kind of weird sensation there, or is it just normal? Am I going to have this foreign sensation for the week or anything?
By the time you go home it'll be back to normal, but by day 3 it shouldn't be noticeable.
It's possible too that the endoscopic tube bruised your throat a little bit. I doubt it though- most likely just the raw feeling from that super small surgical area.
The wound heals in the first 2-3 days (be VERY kind to yourself about what you eat/drink as not to irritate it) and then you'll have a full strength heal at 7 days. After that, the permanent sutures don't really matter anymore and you are very well off on the road to a great recovery
I'm kind of nervous about sleeping tonight. It's so fresh and I'm nervous that I'll cough or something while I'm sleeping. Abby/Jenny, do you have any tips you may have learned to keep yourself from doing anything, especially in these first three days?
My tip is be weary of A/C. For me it dried out the air to the point where it gave me a tickle in the throat. Keep a huge jug of water next to your bed to make sure you never run out ;)
You're going to be fine. If you cough in your sleep it's no big deal. It's the big whooping cough while conscious you have to look out for.
Congrats Sarah!
Wow - you made it and it went all well and you will soon be able to get your voice back. This is so amazing. I feel your excitement I think ;) - sounds like things went really well. I gues snow its listening to Abby and Jenny for the tips and wait - and enjoy Seoul :) - I am so happy for you. :)
Quote from: SarahR on November 12, 2013, 01:11:09 AM
I'm kind of nervous about sleeping tonight. It's so fresh and I'm nervous that I'll cough or something while I'm sleeping. Abby/Jenny, do you have any tips you may have learned to keep yourself from doing anything, especially in these first three days?
Yeah I agree with Jenny about the A/C - especially if your room was like mine where the AC unit is in the ceiling right near the bed! Water is a good idea - keep some by your bed and keep some with you at all times because it really helps when you feel like you have some phlegm in your throat.
Other than that I think the biggest key is to just relax and not worry about it too much. :) I know that is way easier said than done but this first week is going to fly by and then you won't have to think about it so much.
Thanks for the suggestions. It's Autumn here and typically around 30-40 degrees F (around -1 C I think) so A/C isn't a problem. But I'll keep that in mind when I'm out. The bed near the window actually has a perfect ledge that is great for keeping the water on so when I get up in bed it's right within reach.
I'm waking up every couple of hours, which sucks, but I'm noticing the pain and lump-in-the-throat feeling diminish significantly. I can't tell if I've coughed or anything in my sleep, but I assume everything's fine since there is no (additional) pain. It kind of makes it a little harder to not make a noise since it's not as easy to pay attention to it, lol. And it makes me think, "Is the suture still there?!?" But so far I think it's going well. Did you guys have that same feeling of wondering if the suture was still there because you couldn't feel it in there as much as it healed?
Dr. Kim showed me the suture yesterday right before I left. It's so clean and perfect looking. I would have expected it to look a little more...gross, I guess. He did 1/3, although I'm still a little nervous and hoping its enough to get my voice in the 200-225Hz range. I kept thinking I should have him do a little more just in case. Oh well, I'm sure it'll turn out good either way. I'm super impressed with Yeson. The private room was great, they were really attentive every time I pressed the call button, and the food and drinks they provided were good. The only thing is that I wish I brought my laptop to watch movies or something, or at least a book. Getting through the 7 or so hours in that room after surgery was a little boring at times. Also, waiting for the first meal after surgery, which was 4-5 hours later, was kind of hard. I tore through that food, haha.
Also, note to self, do not take a taxi during rush hour. Making the short walk to the subway would have been way better! And cheaper. Although it was still only $10. So tomorrow we're going to go shopping for food and stuff to stock up the kitchen with some items. Soup and oatmeal feels good in the throat. Apple juice as well. Oh, and ice cream (I have an excuse, they said it was good to eat ice cream, lol).
Anyways, that's my post-op follow-up report from the first day. I'll continue to post my experiences (and worries!) throughout the week. I can't wait to hear it for the first time!
Glad your experience was better than mine!
I also had only a 1/3rd reduction of my vocal chords, and like you wondered if it would be enough. His work looks really nice when you see it. I had two sutures and you could only just see some of the blue color.
I start my voice exercises in 1 month.
There is a world class Chinese Restaurant in the Hyundai Department store if you have time to visit there...beautiful food (to die for) and really inexpensive. Top of the escalator just to your right ;)
Kiwi, how is your voice coming along anyways? You can do general conversation now right?
Kiwi how is your recovery going? Have you started conversating at all? I forget the exact date of your surgery
Quote from: SarahR on November 12, 2013, 10:46:35 AM
Anyways, that's my post-op follow-up report from the first day. I'll continue to post my experiences (and worries!) throughout the week. I can't wait to hear it for the first time!
Sarah,
I was SO worried throughout my first week that I was messing stuff up, but as long as you don't notice any unusual or worsening pain I can assure you you have nothing to worry about :)
And I felt the same way when I saw my vocal folds only 6-7 hours after surgery. It was crazy how normal they looked, I assumed it would be a bloody mess haha.
I really wanna see mine now at 6 months post op. Maybe I will schedule a visit with a local ENT
Quote from: Jennygirl on November 12, 2013, 07:44:43 PM
I really wanna see mine now at 6 months post op. Maybe I will schedule a visit with a local ENT
Hah, that'd be cool to see how it looks now.
Quote from: abbyt89 on November 12, 2013, 06:51:02 PM
Sarah,
I was SO worried throughout my first week that I was messing stuff up, but as long as you don't notice any unusual or worsening pain I can assure you you have nothing to worry about :)
And I felt the same way when I saw my vocal folds only 6-7 hours after surgery. It was crazy how normal they looked, I assumed it would be a bloody mess haha.
Hehe, thanks Abby. I'm really trying to keep that in mind! Every now and then I'll accidentally have a short little cough and I'll get so worried! But so far I haven't had any worsening pain or anything, so fingers crossed! I'm really worried during this first few days. I just want it to be the weekend already so I can feel like it's had some time to heal.
I just had a good 3 hours of sleep and feel so refreshed. I've still been unable to sleep a whole night, waking up every couple of hours or just waking up at like 2am or 3am and not able to get back to sleep. So that felt good to at least get another few hours of solid sleep.
I know this sounds ridiculous, but now that the pain is gone and I don't even have much of a lump-in-the-throat feeling I keep on thinking that maybe the suture came undone but isn't causing pain for some reason. It's weird wanting pain, but I kind of want something to let me know its still there, lol.
Abby/Jenny, did this happen to you too? Were you worried because you couldn't feel it in there anymore? It's probably not the case at all, and I knew I'd be worried about everything, it's just being here now in this position and waiting to find out is so hard! I'm sure you remember that feeling.
Oh, and not talking is hard! Even though a lot of people couldn't understand me anyways, it's still hard to not even be able to try to talk. Plus, just getting things across to my sister is sometimes difficult. I don't always have my phone handy or a free hand to type to her.
Quote from: SarahR on November 12, 2013, 11:19:59 PM
I know this sounds ridiculous, but now that the pain is gone and I don't even have much of a lump-in-the-throat feeling I keep on thinking that maybe the suture came undone but isn't causing pain for some reason. It's weird wanting pain, but I kind of want something to let me know its still there, lol.
Abby/Jenny, did this happen to you too? Were you worried because you couldn't feel it in there anymore? It's probably not the case at all, and I knew I'd be worried about everything, it's just being here now in this position and waiting to find out is so hard! I'm sure you remember that feeling.
I remember it as if it were yesterday. You are fine Sarah :)
Quote
Oh, and not talking is hard! Even though a lot of people couldn't understand me anyways, it's still hard to not even be able to try to talk. Plus, just getting things across to my sister is sometimes difficult. I don't always have my phone handy or a free hand to type to her.
Yeah I remember that, too. After the surgery I became a lot more expressive with my hands, and it has kinda stuck with me. Also, I probably doubled my words per minute typing on touchscreen keyboards ;)
Ok cool! Thanks for the reassurance.
I'm becoming super expressive with my hands now too, haha.
It's crazy how fast things start to feel normal again! Just 2 days post-op and there is barely any sign I had surgery. Up until now I would also have a lot of phlegm that would seem to aggravate my throat whenever I leaned back into bed or leaned over or anything like that. Those are the times where I would get an urge to cough. Now I am noticing that diminishing a lot as well, which is great. However, I think I'm now at the tickle stage that I remember Jenny talking about. I am starting to get a slight tickle in my throat that is usually calmed with water.
I think I'm going to continue to take it easy today and stay local and really pay attention to everything. Tomorrow I have the city tour, which will be 3 days post-op and I'll feel a lot more confident being outside and having to brave the different smells and sensations that seem to aggravate the throat and make me want to cough. After the tour and going into the weekend I think I'll be confident enough to continue exploring Seoul again more deeply.
I have this weird feeling in my mind. Because the pain and stuff is really minimal, I don't even feel like I've had surgery. Since I can't yet talk or make any sound my brain is still using my old voice in my head, which is totally throwing me off a bit. Since I know that's likely not what my voice sounds like anymore, but I haven't heard what it does sound like yet, I have this weird feeling that it's still that same old voice!
It's kind of throwing me into a very slight dysphoric state. I know I should be ecstatic because my voice *is* different, at least it will be when I can hear it, but without hearing it all my brain can do is fall back to what it knows, so I'm still having to deal with my horrible old voice in my head! Arg, I wish I could at least hear it a little bit so I can ease my mind that it's actually different. I know I can't, and I'm definitely not going to try, but it's something I hadn't considered in all this. I know some people don't really have a head voice, but I do and it definitely has a sound to it...my old voice!
Ugh, I think I need to get out and get my mind off of it.
That's a new twist on the old "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around........" I will probably react much the same after I make it over there. It will be like being a kid and waiting for Christmas again and worrying that all the gifts are socks and underwear.
Except this time around the surprise should be truly wonderful.
Quote from: SarahR on November 13, 2013, 06:50:58 PM
I have this weird feeling in my mind. Because the pain and stuff is really minimal, I don't even feel like I've had surgery. Since I can't yet talk or make any sound my brain is still using my old voice in my head, which is totally throwing me off a bit. Since I know that's likely not what my voice sounds like anymore, but I haven't heard what it does sound like yet, I have this weird feeling that it's still that same old voice!
It's kind of throwing me into a very slight dysphoric state. I know I should be ecstatic because my voice *is* different, at least it will be when I can hear it, but without hearing it all my brain can do is fall back to what it knows, so I'm still having to deal with my horrible old voice in my head! Arg, I wish I could at least hear it a little bit so I can ease my mind that it's actually different. I know I can't, and I'm definitely not going to try, but it's something I hadn't considered in all this. I know some people don't really have a head voice, but I do and it definitely has a sound to it...my old voice!
Ugh, I think I need to get out and get my mind off of it.
Sarah I don't start my voice exercises until the 8th of December. Jessie has told me I cannot expect to hear a pitch increase until I do, and then it will be a gradual increase...If you try and laugh (in your throat) you'll notice the pitch is very high. I know what you are saying about the same voice. I can talk now, and there is no difference to me, just a couple of people on the phone said it sounded different.
It takes time...and patience, I am assured. ;)
Kiwi- you can't talk, laugh, or cough at all during the first week (or 2 if you have the botox injection). That is the most important requirement of the after surgery instructions. Sarah is just 3 days post op so I wouldn't be encouraging her to have a laugh ;)
I'm sorry to hear that your voice doesn't sound different. Perhaps it has something to do with the talking during the silent recovery period you mentioned in a previous post? I think you even mentioned having pain- which is not a good sign after trying to talk to early. Have you contacted Jessie about it?
Hopefully you are just healing differently and when you start exercises it will all iron out. Either way, getting ahold of Jessie would be a good idea for the interim.
Quote from: Jennygirl on November 13, 2013, 09:16:55 PM
I'm sorry to hear that your voice doesn't sound different. Perhaps it has something to do with the talking during the silent recovery period you mentioned in a previous post? I think you even mentioned having pain- which is not a good sign after trying to talk to early. Have you contacted Jessie about it?
Hopefully you are just healing differently and when you start exercises it will all iron out. Either way, getting ahold of Jessie would be a good idea for the interim.
Yes, I have emailed Jessie and I'm pretty sure I will be OK. No question my Seoul experience wasn't a good one and yet I am sure I am just healing differently...feel like I have a frog in my throat. She tells me it will "happen" when I start my voice exercises.
And NO Sarah, don't talk!
Quote from: Jennygirl on November 13, 2013, 09:16:55 PM
Kiwi-
I'm sorry to hear that your voice doesn't sound different. I think you even mentioned having pain
No Jenny, no pain...I just had a sore throat for a while. I don't think it is that different (yet) but other's think it is... :)
Kiwi, maybe you can have Jessie send you the pre-op recording and you can do it again now and listen to the difference. Maybe you just don't remember how your voice sounded before now that it's (potentially) different.
And yeah, I'm definitely not going to talk at all. I just have to focus on the future and remember that I'll be able to hear it in a little more than a week and a half, since I have to get the Botox. That's not a long time to wait, I'm just being silly and impatient!
I thought I had my botox injection 7 days after surgery. As for speaking (I could only whisper) and didn't do it much (I didn't want to destroy Dr Kim's work)
I am excited for you Sarah! :)
Yes he does the botox injection at the 7 day mark. If you get that, you shouldn't try to talk for another week. That second week was the killer for me, because I was expecting to be able to hear my voice on day 7. By day 14 I was going a little nuts with anticipation.
Whispering is another one of those strict don'ts actually- it's all outlined on the post-operative care sheet. Those instructions are a key component to recovery, and they expect you to be serious about it- especially early on. No talking, whispering, coughing, sneezing, laughing, clearing of throat, spicy food, greasy food, overly salty food, overly sugary food / drink, caffeine, or alcohol.
Using a whisper too early is almost as bad as talking. It puts tension on the vocal cords which is exactly what you don't want to do to the tiny little sutures holding everything in place.
Sarah I recommend you follow those instructions to the tee! I'm sure you are! Please don't try to whisper!
Yep, I'm following everything to to letter! I'm not making a noise at all.
So I woke up again this morning at 2:30am, but seeing as how I went to sleep around 8pm that's a good 6 or so hours of sleep. I feel GREAT today! OMG it just gets better and easier every day. Sleep really does wonders!
Ok, so I'm at 3 days post-op now and I'm feeling pretty confident that things are healing nicely. Pain is absolutely gone. The lump-in-the-throat feeling is gone too. I just have a bit of sensation from kind of tensing my throat muscles a bit, but I've been trying to keep them as relaxed as possible. I have my tour today so it'll be a good test to see how I do being outside a lot again. Strong scents (e.g. flowers, coffee, etc.) had been getting to me and making me want to cough. I just always have water with me and take small sips throughout the day to counteract it, along with using the open-mouth technique.
I have seriously been drinking more water than I ever have. Even going to Burning Man I hadn't drank so much water! I've had to go pee like 100 times a day, lol. I'm just trying to keep hydrated and keep the coughs away. I haven't yet had any really hard cough at all, and I haven't said a single word since the surgery. I'm feeling extremely good about the recovery. I'm hoping that all of this will mean a good voice once I can start speaking again.
I took a lot of time yesterday and re-read almost every post in Jenny's [39-page!] thread to revisit any tips or suggestions for recovery and stuff, as well as to listen to the progression of her and Abby's voices and it had my body tingling with excitement. I'm still in awe of the results you both have had and can't believe I'm well on my way now to hopefully having the same good results. Just 4 days to go until my follow-up exam!
Good news Sarah ;D
Today I woke and noticed my voice is much higher (talking to the dogs) and since I have been able to talk there are no misconceptions about my sex on the phone LOL. This is really the reason I wanted this surgery.
I can't wait for the 3 weeks until I start my voice exercises :)
Sarah - I am confident you will have amazing results - especially because you're coming from such a feminine voice and already have the resonance down pat 100%. You are going to be thrilled with your results and I can't wait to hear them!
On your tour today you will be taken to a little amethyst store near the bimbimbap place for lunch. Don't get suckered in like I did and spend too much money on way overpriced jewelry lol.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on November 14, 2013, 03:15:25 PM
Good news Sarah ;D
Today I woke and noticed my voice is much higher (talking to the dogs) and since I have been able to talk there are no misconceptions about my sex on the phone LOL. This is really the reason I wanted this surgery.
I can't wait for the 3 weeks until I start my voice exercises :)
That's really great news Kiwi!!! So glad to hear that you're starting to see results! I'm sure it'll continue to get better as you ramp up your conversational talking and especially once you start the voice excersize in a few weeks.
You know, we'll all want to hear some recordings from you soon, if you feel comfortable that is :-)
Quote from: abbyt89 on November 14, 2013, 03:45:29 PM
Sarah - I am confident you will have amazing results - especially because you're coming from such a feminine voice and already have the resonance down pat 100%. You are going to be thrilled with your results and I can't wait to hear them!
Yay, I can't wait either! So much anticipation!
Quote from: abbyt89 on November 14, 2013, 03:45:29 PM
On your tour today you will be taken to a little amethyst store near the bimbimbap place for lunch. Don't get suckered in like I did and spend too much money on way overpriced jewelry lol.
LOL thanks for the advice!
Yep I almost got suckered by the overpriced jewelry too. Luckily my bank card had been shut down ;)
Which piece did you get Abby? I really liked the 2 sided necklace and wanted to get it for my mom. It's easy to write it off when you are spending so much money on a surgery. I totally would have purchased if my card didn't get denied. The lady looked more bummed than I did though, so that did say something to me heading out of there.
Quote from: SarahR on November 14, 2013, 03:47:00 PM
You know, we'll all want to hear some recordings from you soon, if you feel comfortable that is :-)
I have no problem doing recordings as I think this is wonderful surgery with tremendous benefits. If I could work out how to do it for you... ::)
I like vocaroo.com a lot for doing voice recordings!
http://www.vocaroo.com/
*click to record*
*click allow* <- so the site can access your laptop microphone
*click here to save*
then copy paste the "http://vocaroo.com/i/xxxxxxxxxxx" under sharing options in a post here. Hope this helps, I really wanna hear it! :)
Quote from: Jennygirl on November 14, 2013, 06:13:54 PM
Yep I almost got suckered by the overpriced jewelry too. Luckily my bank card had been shut down ;)
Which piece did you get Abby? I really liked the 2 sided necklace and wanted to get it for my mom. It's easy to write it off when you are spending so much money on a surgery. I totally would have purchased if my card didn't get denied. The lady looked more bummed than I did though, so that did say something to me heading out of there.
Haha, I was secretly hoping that the card would be declined in between me deciding to purchase it and her running the card.
I got a pair of earrings and a small pendant necklace . I think it was like ~$200 so not a ridiculous amount but def. overpriced and I immediately regretted it and haven't even worn them lol.
But I can't wait for Buenos Aires in a few weeks because I'm so gonna splurge on some nice boots and bags. Argentina's leather products are really, really high quality and super cheap by our standards.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on November 14, 2013, 07:35:46 PM
I have no problem doing recordings as I think this is wonderful surgery with tremendous benefits. If I could work out how to do it for you... ::)
Here it is...http://vocaroo.com/i/s1BwmRKE6xDl ;D
I can definitely hear the years of experience living as a female. Even though I don't know the gender markers of your dialect, your voice sounds female to me :)
A little bit of added pitch after the voice exercises and it's going to sound even better.
Thanks for sharing, Kiwi :D
Kiwi, that sounds great - I think I missed the pre-surgery recording if you ever posted it - did you? So it can be compared? In any case now it sounds perfect, not too squeaky and I like that. For some people too high of a pitch can be odd. I dont know you but I think this is a nice voice, more at the lower end of the female spectrum, I would say but definitely within it :D - very neat !
And Sarah - sounds awesome for now - not even pain anymore - you should be happy and not worried! ;) - But I understand. How long can you not cough - only for the 7 days or do you need to hold out longer? I think not coughing probably is harder than not speaking, though I guess not making a sound may be hard to do in surprise situations. When I had that throat infection and could not speak and tried to just deliberately not speak or cough for 2 days to improve healing (thinking if that works after a VFS it probably cannot harm healing from a throat infection) at some point near the end of that time when it did not hurt anymore and someone asked me a question once, I just answered without thinking. D'Oh - at least I knew by then that the voice is bak, but that would be a bad situation after VFS...
I just wanna say congradz to all the ladies here on their successful surgery with yeson. I'm actually just starting to save for it, and was wondering if you can smoke or not after surgery Im a smoker and was just curious? Also how do you upload ur avatar pic i don't see that option
Quote from: delani25 on November 15, 2013, 06:05:06 AM
I just wanna say congradz to all the ladies here on their successful surgery with yeson. I'm actually just starting to save for it, and was wondering if you can smoke or not after surgery Im a smoker and was just curious? Also how do you upload ur avatar pic i don't see that option
You shouldn't smoke for at least 2 weeks before and after any surgery as far as I am aware, and its probably not worth the risk doing it until a while after you're fully recovered when throat surgery is concerned.
You need a minimum post count of 15 in order to upload an avatar in the Profile->Forum Profile menu, welcome to Susans!!
Seems this forum is a major promotional boost for Yeson now. The ladies are just flocking to him. I guess I will need to decide soon if I want this or not or I will have to line up in a long waiting list if this continues to be such a boom ;)
Quote from: anjaq on November 15, 2013, 05:18:23 AM
Kiwi, that sounds great - I think I missed the pre-surgery recording if you ever posted it - did you? So it can be compared?
No I didn't (because I didn't know how to post it) but, it didn't sound very different to what it does in this recording. I recognize my voice in it. It's the changes from here I'm more interested in, after the exercises start. :)
Quote from: anjaq on November 15, 2013, 08:30:05 AM
Seems this forum is a major promotional boost for Yeson now. The ladies are just flocking to him. I guess I will need to decide soon if I want this or not or I will have to line up in a long waiting list if this continues to be such a boom ;)
I think we should start lobbying Yeson to give Jenny a fat finders fee! Seems like a lot of $$ flowing to them. I know I am in the line already. Just waiting for my daughter to select her vacation pick so I can book around her time.
Quote from: Kaylee on November 15, 2013, 07:14:38 AM
You shouldn't smoke for at least 2 weeks before and after any surgery as far as I am aware, and its probably not worth the risk doing it until a while after you're fully recovered when throat surgery is concerned.
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Ok thx so much Kaylee:)
So I had the tour yesterday. Wow was that a long day! I had fun, but it's really hard not being able to talk. All I could do most of the time was smile and nod...which is so frustrating when there is so much I want to say, and constantly typing and showing my phone to communicate just doesn't work for me, at least not in that environment. I did have fun though and loved seeing all the different areas. This is really a cool place. I do have to say though that the tour guide was great.
The only part of the tour I didn't like was the amethyst store. I hate when tours include a stop at a jewelry store where they hound you over and over to buy something (I didn't). Luckily that was just a short amount of time, the rest was filled with seeing the palaces, museum, and other places around the city. I loved walking through the shops in Insadong and (I think) Myeondong. I'm definitely going to go back there and spend some more time.
Overall yesterday was good with regard to coughing and stuff. I didn't really have any problems, even with being around so many different conditions, smoggy, flowery, etc. I feel a lot better now that I'm past the critical first 3 days, although I'm still nervous about everything I do. I actually slept/rested almost a full night tonight. I slept mostly until 4am, then laid in bed drifting into and out of sleep and rest until now, 6am. It feels good to actually kind of be on a normal schedule again, which I haven't had since I flew in to Korea.
I am getting pretty anxious for Tuesday so I can see if everything has healed ok and to be that much closer to being able to talk again. Just 3 more days now!
Ps. Kiwi, your voice does sound good, although it obviously isn't as drastic of a change at this stage as we saw from Abby and Jenny, likely due to the talking and stuff you did during that first week. I'm sure it'll continue to improve though, especially after you start the excersices. I mean, Dr. Kim does make it very clear that we shouldn't expect a change until AT LEAST two months post-op. So I would say you're actually still well within the bounds of the recovery schedule. Sounds good though, keep us updated once you start the excersices :-)
Quote from: SarahR on November 15, 2013, 03:15:34 PM
Ps. Kiwi, your voice does sound good, although it obviously isn't as drastic of a change at this stage as we saw from Abby and Jenny, likely due to the talking and stuff you did during that first week.
When Dr Kim showed me the before & after (at the follow-up) it was impressive. My vocal chords looked like really nice (before they were like a crooked V and longer)
We never took "the tour" but chose our own itinerary. Did go up to the DMZ, but I wouldn't recommend this unless you went with the American run tour...it was booked out for around 3 weeks when we tried to get on it. Many tours do go there...but ours was a rip-off...old bus, no air-conditioning and the Guide told lies! Let me explain: She said "see that billboard over there - near the border - it is filled with dynamite and if North Korea try to invade us we will blow it up". (There was a major road under it) So we were expected to believe this and go and tell North Korea! Yeah Right! Propaganda seems to be alive on both sides. It also was expensive. A rip-off.
If you enjoy food, check out Hyundai Department Store...Upstairs, go to the Chinese! World famous and gorgeous food & flavors
@anjaq Not speaking is really easy for me. It's the coughing and stuff that's harder. I haven't even tried to say a word since the surgery, but I have had a couple of really light coughs. They say not to cough for 3 weeks, I believe.
@delani25 They say not to smoke for 3 months after at least, I believe. However, with something like this I would say it's a perfect reason to get the motivation to quit altogether!
@kiwi That sounds great that your vocal folds looked so good! I'm so worried I've messed them up every time I accidentally cough or something, but it sounds though that it takes a lot to really mess it up. That's really reassuring. Sorry to hear about your bad tour experience too. Also, I think we're going to check out the Hyundai department store either today or tomorrow along with some other places.
Quote from: SarahR on November 15, 2013, 05:05:33 PM
@anjaq Not speaking is really easy for me. It's the coughing and stuff that's harder. I haven't even tried to say a word since the surgery, but I have had a couple of really light coughs. They say not to cough for 3 weeks, I believe.
@delani25 They say not to smoke for 3 months after at least, I believe. However, with something like this I would say it's a perfect reason to get the motivation to quit altogether!
@kiwi That sounds great that your vocal folds looked so good! I'm so worried I've messed them up every time I accidentally cough or something, but it sounds though that it takes a lot to really mess it up. That's really reassuring. Sorry to hear about your bad tour experience too. Also, I think we're going to check out the Hyundai department store either today or tomorrow along with some other places.
yes it's certainly motivation thanks alot....and I hope all is going well with your recovery ;)
Wow, no coughing for 3 weeks, thats hard.
I wonder how this works with the no changes vs quite dramatic changes right after surgery and the voice training afterwards. So how come that there are these differences and they actually say not to expect any changes in the short run even? And then we hear Jenny sounding great immediately...?
And what do these voice trinign exercises do - are they doing something with the surgery or are they more general voice training stuff that also could help those who do not have a voice surgery to get the voice better?
I think most doctors are usually conservative with their directions and estimates just to be safe. I'm sure some people just heal differently and so they see changes at different times. It's all based on the healing process. Dr. Kim actually drew a little graph showing that within the first 2 months the change is very minimal, then it starts to spike up after 2 months, and then is done after 1 year. However, it's only an estimate in the end.
From what I know, the excersices are pretty generic vocal excersices. Anyone could probably do them and get benefits as well. They're likely similar to what you'd find with any other vocal coach. I believe they even have the video of them on their YouTube channel. After VFS it's to help increase the strength and vocal range and quality again.
Thanks for the Info, Sarah. How does this work with the healing and increase in pitch - the vocal cords are shortened right away after all, how can it be then that in some cases this shortening has no effect immediately and what happens during the healing process that makes it happen?
I heard of some people claiming that they got only little increase from this type of surgery (in Germany though) and then moved on to Dr Thomas for the huge surgery there. I wonder how this could be that such a procedure with definite changes could lead to no changes in the voice. I wonder though if they did not know that the healing takes a year and increases can happen in that time. Maybe they jumped towards the next surgery too fast. So I am interested in the healing process and how it would affect pitch, as the general configuration of the vocal cords is changed immediately after the surgery already and doe snot build up over time. Just want to make sure that its not the vocal exercises alone that producemiuch of these pitch increase effects in the long run.
Another idea about why for some it may seem to be the same is what I actually expect to experience if I should do this - I already do not talk in my old voice anymore but in one that is at +50Hz. Now if the surgery basically removes the lower pitch range, I am already not using it anyways, so an increase in 75Hz would in the end bring me up only 25 Hz and I might feel disappointed but that increase would be me talking with a relaxed voice compared to before where it is relaxed but still changed by practice. I dont know - maybe that is something thats happening? Kiwi - is it easier for you now to talk the way you do compared to before even if the voice sounds according to your post rather similar? I can imagine you changed your voice already a lot in the many years in the past and maybe what I described there applies to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3t1hcvc6Jo I dont know if nikki is in the forum or not but Dr.Thomas did her voice surgery I think she sounds great but I seen another girl on youtube who was not satisfied with her results, so I guess voice surgery can be risky all together
@anjaq I don't want to presume I understand what's going on during the healing process :-) but my general idea is that the differences could be due to swelling and stuff maybe going down more quickly in one person than another, and maybe that leads to faster apparent changes. If the vocal folds are still swollen I could imagine they'd be lower pitched since they'd be thicker. So ones who get results quicker are maybe the ones who are healing quicker as well. Just my uneducated guess. I like your idea of already speaking in a higher pitch so not seeing a difference really in the early recovery. I would imagine that would change though later in the recovery as the pitch starts to go higher.
Quote from: delani25 on November 15, 2013, 07:02:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3t1hcvc6Jo I dont know if nikki is in the forum or not but Dr.Thomas did her voice surgery I think she sounds great but I seen another girl on youtube who was not satisfied with her results, so I guess voice surgery can be risky all together
I don't know what she sounded like before so maybe it's an artifact of her old voice but to me her voice sounds a little raspy. It doesn't sound bad at all, she sound perfectly female to me, but if the surgery gave me raspiness like that I would be a little less satisfied. I haven't heard any raspiness like that in any of the videos from Yeson.
Quote from: SarahR on November 15, 2013, 08:59:55 PM
I don't know what she sounded like before so maybe it's an artifact of her old voice but to me her voice sounds a little raspy. It doesn't sound bad at all, she sound perfectly female to me, but if the surgery gave me raspiness like that I would be a little less satisfied. I haven't heard any raspiness like that in any of the videos from Yeson.
Yea i don't know what her voice sounded like before either but i do hear the raspy part to it also but nevertheless its female
Holy ->-bleeped-<-, I had to go and mention that it's easy not to talk!!! Just this morning I've already accidentally tried to talk twice! I was doing so good too. Ugh, c'mon Tuesday, I need confirmation I haven't ruined everything now!
Luckily they were only single words and I wasn't trying to project much. Nothing came out at all, and there's only a slight bit of sensation that goes away quickly so I hope everything's still good.
Quote from: SarahR on November 15, 2013, 09:37:40 PM
Holy ->-bleeped-<-, I had to go and mention that it's easy not to talk!!! Just this morning I've already accidentally tried to talk twice! I was doing so good too. Ugh, c'mon Tuesday, I need confirmation I haven't ruined everything now!
Luckily they were only single words and I wasn't trying to project much. Nothing came out at all, and there's only a slight bit of sensation that goes away quickly so I hope everything's still good.
Haha, you're fine!! If you read back through my posts I did the same thing and I was SO pissed at my self. But don't worry :)
My understanding is the voice exercises work on the new (shorter) vocal chords. I understand too that it takes a year for the chords to tighten, hence the improvement.
I have to admit to being "naughty" I used to put on a mans voice sometimes on the phone to trick people who I was. Not until talking to Dr Kim did I realize this would have affected my vocal chords and perhaps that's why they looked so strange...they did. Like a V but one side was shorter than the other and both chords had a thick whitish look. The only way I can really describe it is to think of raw chicken, sorry!
I am happy with things, but feel the exercises will push my voice through a barrier to the other side, the feminine one.
Question: is blowing on hot food doing the same thing as whispering? The reason I ask is because I haven't been blowing on my food to cool it down since I think it's similar to whispering and I don't want to do that at all. However, isn't the problem with whispering the turbulence of the airflow? I don't think the controlled blowing to cool food is as turbulent as that, so maybe it's fine? Or should I just not do it just in case?
Sarah! I'm glad to hear that things are going so well!
No, blowing on your food is totally fine. The whisper sound you are hearing in that case is coming from your lips and mouth.
I wouldn't worry about accidentally trying to say one word, it happened to me too and everything turned out great.
I'm so excited for you! Keep up the great recovery-ing :)
Cool, thanks for the explanation.
So nothing new to really report for today. Woke up feeling good as usual. Still no pain or anything so that's good. I'm getting really excited to see what it looks like now. It's getting closer and closer to being able to talk! I'm pretty sure I'm going to be getting Botox which means I'll have another week of no talking.
Is there any way Dr. Kim would allow me to try and say a word or two before he does the Botox?!? The only reason I won't be able to talk for another week is only due to the Botox right? Usually patients can start saying a couple words after 7 days? If that's the case then I'd LOVE to be able to give my voice a test drive on Tuesday first and then have him do the Botox. Yeah yeah, I know, but I'm impatient at this point :-) If not then I guess I'll have to wait until next Tuesday to hear it. Aaahhh, I'm so excited!
Today we're going to go to Insadong and Myeondong to do some more perusing and shopping. It's been crazy cold the entire time we've been here but at least it's still been sunny. I think it'll get up to 44 degrees F today.
Tomorrow is the big day when I finally get to see if everything is healing well. This morning I woke up and my throat felt kind of...tight. That's best word I can use. It's not pain or soreness, but just feels tight. I hope it doesn't mean anything bad. It's not as bad as it was earlier but it's still feeling that way a little bit.
Anyways, I'll post again with the results of the post-op exam tomorrow.
Woop! Sounds like fun.
My favorite shop was in Insadong. There is a lady there who makes beautiful painted ceramic necklaces (and matching accessories, too). I liked the one on the right so much I had to go back on our last day to get more! There is rarely an occasion where I am not wearing one of these :D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fx2scDit.jpg&hash=66ac31652a3334d9f12389577c4b2d66e2513452)
The quarter is just for scale. I do not wear money as accessories. Lol
Quote from: SarahR on November 17, 2013, 07:31:32 PM
Today we're going to go to Insadong and Myeondong to do some more perusing and shopping. It's been crazy cold the entire time we've been here but at least it's still been sunny. I think it'll get up to 44 degrees F today.
Tomorrow is the big day when I finally get to see if everything is healing well. This morning I woke up and my throat felt kind of...tight. That's best word I can use. It's not pain or soreness, but just feels tight. I hope it doesn't mean anything bad. It's not as bad as it was earlier but it's still feeling that way a little bit.
Anyways, I'll post again with the results of the post-op exam tomorrow.
Insadong and Myeong-dong are very different but both very neat. :) I enjoyed walking around both a lot and did way too much shopping. Jenny, I'm really jealous that I didn't come across that vendor because those necklaces look so pretty!
And man I wish it was 44 degrees when I was there. In the middle of August the heat index was over 100 every day and the humidity was ridiculous - way worse than the already bad mid-atlantic humidity than I'm used to. I want to go back in the spring time since it's supposed to be really nice that time of year.
I can't believe it's been almost a week already! Please keep us updated. :)
I took the initiative and phoned Yeson today and spoke to Jessie. I asked her how my voice sounded and she said it sounded really good and that I was doing well. I asked her why I had "stuffiness" in my voice and she said she could hear it. I told her how I drank maybe 6 mugs of coffee a day (only decaf) and she told me I must stop this as I should only drink water & juice. :embarrassed: I would never have knowingly done this, so you can suppose I must have some sort of dementia!
It is hot here (we are in our Summer) so it won't be hard to stop the coffee. (and I thought I was doing so well with the decaf!)
She was pleased, that's the main thing.
I must be brain dead! LOL ::)
Oh my god it was such a great day today! We went to Myeongdong, after missing the stop initially haha, and had lunch, then walked around a bit. It actually started snowing a bit, just like snow flurries, so we decided to head back down toward Gangnam. Before hopping on the subway we decided to paruse the underground shops. We didn't find much that was worth the price there so after a couple hours we headed back to Gangnam. We did some more shopping there and found some cool stuff that was reasonably priced. It was so much fun going through all the little shops down there. We ended up back at the hotel and I had a hot cup of cocoa.
I really love Seoul and can't wait to come back when I have a voice again. Speaking of that, I'm about 19 hours away from my post-op exam with Dr. Kim and I'm really excited to see it and maybe hopefully get to say a word or two.
I do have a question though. At what point can laughing resume? Is that after one month when general conversation begins, or two months when most everything else can resume?
Sounds like a good time. I stayed in Myeongdong and the shopping force was strong with that one. I almost bought so many things, but I found myself with similar feelings about most stuff not being worth the price. Honestly, most of the clothing in Seoul seems to be made very cheaply- almost for a one time use. The girl that we met there explained to us that fashion moves so quickly that there is really no need for long lasting clothing. As soon as something is in, it's out... then it's time to buy new clothes! Interesting! I think that's why I liked Insadong so much more, because there were many more arts and crafts type of places, it seemed more unique.
As far as the laughing, I understood it as you can start once you are able to have full conversations at 1 month. That is when I started exploring the new laugh!
I hope everything goes well at your 1 week checkup! I'm sure it will :)
Ok cool, I really don't know if I'd be able to stop myself from laughing if I couldn't do it once I was doing general conversational speaking. I love laughing and want to start taking advantage of liking how it sounds to laugh now :-)
Oh, I was pretty sure I remembered that you stayed in Myeongdong and it was at a place called...damn, what was it, something Prince. Anyways, I think I passed right by it! I took a pic of it. Was it a big brownish building, with a curved edge facing the street?
That makes sense why the clothing would be cheaply made, but if the styles go in and out so quickly yet are so expensive it seems like it would be crazy expensive to keep up to date with the current styles.
Yep that was it! Hotel Prince!
Kiwi Eva - that sounds a bit odd with the coffee. So you are not supposed to drink coffee, even decaf, for how long after the surgery? I need coffee - I can do some time without it, though thats harder if I cannot replace it with black tea, but to stay away from it forever would be tough.
Its funny - I read so much about how you girls here go on shopping sprees in Seoul and about fashion and accessoires - I get the impression that if I should go to this place, I would have a hard time to be entertained as I am not that much a fan of shopping and fashion... ;)
Anjaq...........I'm in the same boat as you. Not big into fashion or shopping. I have been scouring the travel sites for ideas when I make my trip. So far I think it'll be a trip to the DMZ and moon the soldiers on the North.
Quote from: RachelAnne on November 18, 2013, 10:43:21 AM
Anjaq...........So far I think it'll be a trip to the DMZ and moon the soldiers on the North.
Whatever you do in Seoul, you won't be doing that in the DMZ unless your looking to start a war. Several years ago a tree was cut down and the people who did it were axed to death. If you do go to the DMZ please book with a reputable company (usually booked out several weeks in advance) as there are others who are terrible...old buses, no air-conditioning, and they don't make it such a good experience ;)
I regret posting here
Quote from: voodle on November 18, 2013, 03:05:03 PM
but my vocal chords are more susceptible to problems with phlegm than they were before the surgery, which I guess is why they warn about it.
Ok - that may not be good either as I have that as a problem rather massively already. In 2 days will have that checked out together with possible voice damage, my vocal range and such - I hope they do a lot of stuff if I have to be there for 3 hours and I hope they can find out why I have these problems with it recently. But more phlegm at the vocal cords is not what I need :\
I regret posting here
What are they checking in the voice exam in Seoul before yout surgery there? I will have a voice examination in 2 days here at home and I am sure they will run a lot of tests, but dont know what to expect and maybe what to suggest to be testing. Whats the purpose of the exam in Seoul? To see if you have damage that needs correction and to get data on the pre op voice frequencies and strength?
They test a ton of things... How much air you use while you phonate, the health of them visually, your fundamental frequency, and they use a high speed larygeal camera to look at them in super slow-mo to make sure they are flapping symmetrically- an easy way to diagnose vocal tremor
Quote from: Jennygirl on November 18, 2013, 09:08:10 PM
They test a ton of things... How much air you use while you phonate, the health of them visually, your fundamental frequency, and they use a high speed larygeal camera to look at them in super slow-mo to make sure they are flapping symmetrically- an easy way to diagnose vocal tremor
I'm glad I didn't reply. LOL ;D THere's no way I could have answered her so succinctly. I just knew they did a bunch of tests!
Hey guys, so I had my follow-up exam today and got to finally see the vocal folds again. They look fantastic, the suture was clean and the healing had really progressed nicely! I'm so happy I didn't mess them up this last week. I also got the Botox injection done. It was a really, really small needle that they poke you in the neck twice with and inject it. It didn't really hurt, maybe a little prick. It did leave two little marks for a couple hours though. I think they're already gone by now though.
Interestingly, Dr. Kim said I could start saying a few words a day starting today, so I don't have to wait another week. That's actually easier said than done though. I tried to say a couple words and literally nothing came out! It's so hard to get any sound to actually come out (and this was before the Botox). It'll likely be even harder now with the Botox, at least for a little bit. I'm probably going to just still wait another week or so to really start trying to get sound out so I don't risk trying too hard and damaging something.
Here are my tests results:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi669.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv56%2Ftheartoflogic%2FTS%2FYeson%2FIMG_0127_zpsa6eb1545.jpg&hash=d4292eaf804b9a4d0113ff68fd0464f87eb188dc)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi669.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv56%2Ftheartoflogic%2FTS%2FYeson%2FIMG_0128_zpsb0fde5d1.jpg&hash=0614478d5592cc0d0ce6c1a063d025bfc7ee1300)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi669.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv56%2Ftheartoflogic%2FTS%2FYeson%2FIMG_0129_zps3572974c.jpg&hash=1f6b15e23f6943930ff74bbd71bbc16806907e08)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi669.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv56%2Ftheartoflogic%2FTS%2FYeson%2FIMG_0130_zps1b30fc1c.jpg&hash=8a268faa6f0283391d5c430c96d7f913619c1991)
The first one contains the "low" voice results, with a mean frequency of 155Hz. You can see above and to the left of that he wrote 229Hz, which is where he says I should end up once it's fully healed. Right in the middle of the female range! The second one is the "high" voice results, where I was trying to use a feminine voice. I ended up using my high feminine voice since I was a little confused what they were telling me to do. I thought they had said to use the highest pitch I could do, so I started out trying to belt out something at probably like 350Hz, lol. I started laughing though so they started over and I just did it in my high female voice, which is what you see there. It's really cool though how their measurements match almost exactly what I had measured myself in Praat with my three different voices. My low measurement was 153Hz, theirs was 155Hz. My high measurement was 190Hz, theirs was 196Hz. Neat.
The other two are just some other measurements they took. The third one contains the phonation results where you can see how much air pressure I needed compared to normal: 2.77 vs a normal of 1.5-2, so I was using almost twice the amount of air pressure I should. Also, my phonation time was 13 seconds compared to a normal of 20-25 seconds, so really short there. I'm not entirely sure what the fourth chart means, but I think that's where he determined that I have a vocal tremor. I don't think it was good either. As you can see the graph goes way outside the bounds of the inner circle, haha.
IMPORTANT: Oh yeah! An interesting thing Jessie told me was to make sure that when I started to talk after the 1 month mark that I should intentionally try to use a higher pitch, as opposed to just trying to speak fully relaxed. The reason is so that I can train myself to work with the new shortened vocal folds and a higher pitch that I won't be used to. She also said that as the Botox wears off in a few months that I might notice that my pitch wants to go down a little lower due to me now having more control over them and not being used to it, meaning it will want to level out lower and be monotone until I train myself to use my full range again. I was thinking back to what voodle was saying about how her voice started to go back down after a few months and that may be the reason why. Voodle, if you're reading this I would say to continue to intentionally speak in a higher frequency for a while to train yourself and it should open up your range and ability as you progress and it'll become more natural and consistent speaking at a higher pitch and across a wider range.
So there you have it. I'm finally done with the first step: getting through the first week. Now I get to look forward to starting to get my voice back and hearing it for the first time, yay! I'll keep you guys updated as I start to get phonation again and I'll post audio and/or video recordings with my progression. I'm so excited to move into the second week of recovery and that much closer to hearing my new voice!
I regret posting here
Voodle, that's great to hear that you're starting to get the results you're looking for! Yeah, the breathiness was very likely caused by the Botox/Clonazepam. That's exactly what Jessie told me to expect to until it wore off too.
So voodle, you were able to talk after the first week, or after the second week? And at what point did you start to actually hear your voice and be able to get a clear word out? I think I'm going to just go slowly and maybe try to say one word each day for the next week until I can start to clearly get a word out, then I'll bump up to two to three words a day until the 1 month mark when I can start general conversation.
Abby/Jenny, how long was it until you started to be able to clearly get a word out as well? I'm so curious since it's literally impossible for me right now, lol.
Yay I'm glad it's healing so well :) That's interesting about the point that Jessie made about trying to use a higher pitch, still learning so much about my voice and how to use it!
As for being able to talk, it was probably like 10-14 days after surgery that I could get a clear word out, but it didn't sound that pretty lol.
Ohmygod so much good info coming into this thread right now! THANK YOU Sarah and voodle!
I took your suggestion voodle and tried to talk in what felt like head voice.. What a difference!! Such a great suggestion :) I can't believe I never tried that! I'm going to try to integrate as soon as possible because it's exactly what I've been looking for- I'm just not used to it yet in regular speech. Super exciting. Sarah's directions from Jessie confirm it! Wow- I think my voice might be capable of being a lot higher than I ever initially imagined.
Sarah to answer your question about timing, I think for me it was around 3 weeks until I started saying words not feeling self conscious about how quiet or kinda fluffy it sounded. It took quite a while for the botox to wear off enough. I could however say things very quietly to get an idea at the 2 week mark.
voodle- you're a genius
I'm doing 240-250hz rainbow readings without even flinching to catch my voice anywhere. I've been using a more relaxed head type voice and already a huge difference all throughout my range. This is an incredible discovery. THANK YOU!
I regret posting here
Quote from: SarahR on November 11, 2013, 04:54:59 AM
There are also some other issues with them related to my longer history of speaking with the higher pitch, it's affected my vocal chords. He said it will be better after the surgery, which is great. He also showed me how I have to use so much more strength to push air through because of that, that I can't hold a note for long (like 11-13 seconds compared to a normal person of 20 seconds).
Sarah - I just posted a rather lengthy (sorry) result of my voice examination today: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,153931.msg1288150.html#msg1288150
It sounded a bit like what you describe here - was this image of the vocal chords I posted there similar to yours and this caused issues with vocal strength and air flow? It seems that I have some issues due to speaking in a different voice for so many years now. The major one seems to be an assymetry in the vibrations of the two chords and the other one is a "gap" where they dont come together. I described it in the post. As a result I can hold a note for only 9 seconds which is even worse than your 12 seconds!
Voice Update: I tried saying a word today and I actually heard sound this time! It was super quiet and not easy to tell, but it definitely sounded higher! I'm so excited to hear the progression over the next few weeks. This is going to be fun!
Grats Sarah! I can imagine you are just a ball of excitement right now!
I can't believe the changes in mine either...we have just returned from the beach and I was saying things in my car...it wasn't my old voice, not at all. Last night I spoke to a male friend on the phone and he was excitedly telling me that I didn't sound the same anymore, that my voice sounded softer.
Loving this journey ;)
That's great Kiwi! Your voice does sound really soft. And that is one of the things they address.
The main difference I noticed between Yeson and say Dr Thomas for example was the voice quality. Absolutely no hoarseness coming out of Yeson. It's a huge bonus that voice quality gets softer. It only gets better over time, too, as your vocal cords strengthen and adjust to their new shape.
So I said my few words for today. And here they are:
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/just-a-few-words/s-h1sco
To me it definitely sounds higher, but let me know what you guys think. I tried putting it into Praat but interestingly the actual areas with sound don't have a measurement so I couldn't tell what the frequency was. That may be because it's so low. Obviously It's still really hoarse and low and still hard for me to get sound out, but I think it's coming along nicely so far. Also, as far as I can tell this was without any effort with regard to trying to raise my pitch or anything. It's a little hard to tell since I have to focus so much on just getting sound to come out.
The pitch definitely sounds higher! And while it is very quiet and as you said a bit hoarse it sounds very feminine. :)
You will very quickly notice the strength coming back to your voice - when I was at your stage I would say I was about 3 weeks or so from having a lot of my strength come back.
Keep us updated!!
Sounds exactly like mine did when I first tried to say something :D The pitch I can baaaarely make out when you say "a few" sounds like a C4 / 260hz although I dunno how significant that is right now. The botox injection has pretty much rendered your voice useless for at least a week, and they will slowly regain strength enough to phonate sometime soon after that... Mine didn't come back to a useable level until the middle of week 2 post op (1.5 weeks after the botox injection). Just keep takin er easy girl!
It makes a lot of sense to me why Dr. Kim recommends it in most cases. It immediately blocks the vocal cord from contracting/tensioning at all. That makes for a really good heal at first, and then it starts treating vocal tremor spasm as you start to regain strength. I definitely don't notice any kind of tremory stuff now and I didn't take any of the klonopins (gave them to a friend haha).
It's annoying at first because you want to be able to say a word and hear any pitch at all in your voice, but you can't and it's because of the botox. I know the feeling ;) Give it time and it will come right on back!
Thanks guys! I'm really excited to start hearing it more and working on it, however, I think I'm going to stay completely silent for at least another 5 days (when I'll be 2 weeks post-op) so I don't injure anything. I had the Botox and I'm not sure why Dr. Kim said I could talk right away when he usually says to stay quiet for another week, but I'm going to wait just in case. It'll be hard though, so no guarantees, lol! I mean, either way it'd only be 2-3 words a day anyways, but I don't want to risk it.
Oh and it's probably not good for the vocal folds and healing, but I sneezed (couldn't hold it back!) earlier this morning and at the end there was a definite feminine raised pitch! It really surprised me to hear a girl sneeze, but was so amazing!
I'll post more once I start talking again in the coming weeks. Excitement is abound today :)
I'm very excited for you! Sounds like the sneeze is a good sign of things to come - but stay away from the dust, cat hairs and pepper! :D
Quote from: Ms Grace on November 21, 2013, 04:37:46 PM
I'm very excited for you! Sounds like the sneeze is a good sign of things to come - but stay away from the dust, cat hairs and pepper! :D
Thanks Grace! I'm optimistic about it :)
Very cool - I agree that that tiny voice of yours there at this stage already sound clearly female. Very neat :) - Hope you gain it back soon and can tell us.
But can someone explain to me what this whole issue about the vocal tremor is- what is it, does one have it before surgery already, is it caused by the surgery, what if the botox completely wears off - will it return afterwards? What is the effect and risk of having such a tremor anyways?
Thank you
I regret posting here
voodle, maybe make a new thread on that?
Because it sounds interesting to hear about VFS at Yesons that did not turn out perfect but had some issues with it as well, so we can get a clear picture on the bandwidth of results. As i understand it the risk is to tear the suture with coughing and that you obviously did not do. What was that with the blood clot - how did it affect healing and what did Yeson say about it? To not speak for 8 weeks as they said is a major complication I would say - this is quite severe and impairing. If this is what really was needed for you to heal from this. Probably few people could follow this advice, a week or two is hard already... Does he say that with that healing period you would have gotten a better result? What does your local doc say there?
Did i get this right that you are having some sort of weird feeling in the area or while breathing or talking because of the smaller opening? My doc here said that it might be harder to breathe after this surgery...
Re the botox - i wonder what the benefit of it really is - where does the tremor come from, how does botox affect healing and once it wears off is the tremor not back then plus the other resonance issues that lead in part to a worsening of the voice? The post op videos are all at 2 months , so the are all botoxed voices that sound softer than they might after 6 or 8 months - is this maybe why he uses this time period for his videos for youtube and website? That may give a distorted picture then - I would like to see a pre op, 2 month post op and then 6/8 and 12 month post op video of some of his patients to see what changes long term...
I regret posting here
Voodle what is your full frequency range at volume (lowest/highest)?
Voodle I can understand your concerns in that Youtube video. You sound a bit like me...It sounded like it was me singing/talking. OK I know we don't sound the same, but I could really relate to your breathing and what was happening. I still haven't started voice exercises and God help me if when I do nothing changes.
The blood clot, blood sounds awful. I never had anything like that and your vocal chords don't look the same as mine either, but maybe that's because you had a different procedure by someone different (looking down your throat).
That's the trouble, none of us know, we're all just guessing and comparing different situations and other's results.
I still think we get ripped off because of who we are...The medical profession are so quick to offer us procedures but they don't always give us all the facts. As I am 55, I'm finding there are worrying downsides to many of these miraculous procedures. I have to wait a year before I will get the benefit of my VFS.
A year (at my age) is a very valuable year ;) I can't put a price on it, on living, of just being...
Quote from: voodle on November 21, 2013, 07:30:05 PM
Regarding the botox, check out Maja's interview #1 and compare it with interview #2 on the yesonvoicecenter youtube page, I don't think I'm the only one to experience a pitch drop.
Ok, I need to find that - I have trouble finding the videos of Yesons girls on youtube as there are quite many and they are named weirdly and sorted weirdly and most of the videos are from Koreans which I cannot evaluate.
QuoteBut I'm also not the only person to have a good result several months after the surgery, there's also a patient's experiences compilation video on there and there's some from 6 months or longer after the surgery.
Ok, I would be interested in that - do you have a link?. You mean that for many the good experiences only come after 6 months as it is the case with you? Did I understand that right?
What I want to exclude from all of this is that improvements in the voice are mainly from the voice training and exercises later on as well as the botox - if these are helping so much, is there a need to do the surgery at all or is the surgery for a percentage of the patients mostly a focal point to really concentrate on the voice exercises and thus get a better voice? That whole talk about deliberately speaking at a higher pitch to get the effects of the VFS is kind of weird, as I thought that the whole point of this was that you actually do not have to concentrate on pitch anymore, that you can just start talking and the pitch is right - it seems for some this is not the case :S - But I also saw on Yesons page that 9% of the patients think their voice is worse and another 12% think it needs improvement, so there seems to be a 20% risk that the procedure is not successful, another 20% that it is not as good as thought but a 60% chance that it is really good - according to Yesons...
So maybe for these 20%, voice training will bring more benefits than the actual surgery?
I understand what you are saying here...I too thought that the surgery would give me a female voice. End of story
I just read this thread today.
I am Korean, and if any of you are or will be here, I can help you to stay here :)
I did my voice change surgery in Yanhee.
Because I just wonder about the doctor's skill of Yesong. I think they started the surgery about 10 years ago, Yanhee is longer than Yesong. My result is not too bad. I have to wait more time I know.
It's very good, if you satisfied with your result :) I didn't meet a person who get a surgery in Yesong.
Anyway, if you want to ask about Korea, just tell me :)
Yes it's true, you still have to accompany this surgery with some kind of voice training. Correct me if I'm wrong but the same goes with any VFS procedure. And about the pitch thing, Dr. Kim did tell me verbatim that I would still have to train my brain to use the new higher pitch of the vocal cords for a full result (implying that my fundamental pitch would not change as much if I did no training)... that is the same thing Jessie mentioned to Sarah. And while I do consider that voice training, it was much easier to integrate than if I were to still have those lower pitches and longer vocal cords to fall back on what felt normal/comfortable. I've definitely gone through trials and tribulations with training my new voice, and parts were hard... but like I said: nowhere near as hard as trying to break into my practiced voice pre op. By the end of the third month was when things really started to improve drastically as I got used to being at a higher pitch and not feeling somewhat self conscious about it.
As for the percentage numbers, I asked Jessie in an email about it well before I was even scheduled and this was her response:
QuoteThe successful rate consists of 80% of the highly satisfied, 12% of the moderate and 8% of the unsatisfied or the group which improvement were in need.
The 8% of the dissatisfied group had no voice improvement mostly because they've failed to stick to the post-operative instructions like minimizing conversation for 2 months, quit drinking and smoking, no shouting and etc.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on November 22, 2013, 03:27:03 AM
I still think we get ripped off because of who we are...The medical profession are so quick to offer us procedures but they don't always give us all the facts. As I am 55, I'm finding there are worrying downsides to many of these miraculous procedures. I have to wait a year before I will get the benefit of my VFS.
I think you are probably doing just fine, you are just still very early on in recovery. Let's not get hasty now!
Yeson gives you the platform and the instrument- you still have to pick it up, learn how to play it, and tend to its upkeep. It clearly states that recovery can take up to a year- did you do much research before going through with it? I'm not really getting that impression, and I don't think you should consider yourself being ripped off ???
Ok, I know I said I'd wait, but my patience is wearing thin :) Anyways, I'm keeping it really soft and gentle, and these are the ONLY words I'm saying for the entire day. It was a little easier already to get phonation. I was also able to actually measure it this time too.
Here's the sound clip:
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/how-does-this-sound/s-5DGzD
And here is the measurement in Praat:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi669.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv56%2Ftheartoflogic%2FTS%2FYeson%2FScreenShot2013-11-22at83330AM_zps963c20cd.png&hash=6bd66ae3ee11166f74eb3587ff91f85125aaa8c1)
As you can see, the average frequency is 225Hz. The highest frequency is 271Hz and the lowest is 192Hz. That's almost at the 229Hz that Dr. Kim said I'd end up, although it's still really early in the recovery and it'll likely shift up or down as I go along. Again, I wasn't paying attention to anything except phonation, so resonance, intonation, etc. are definitely lacking in this recording. It's also still really breathy and hoarse. Let me know what you guys think!
I really think you are not giving credit where it's due. At no time did Dr. Kim ever make it seem like I would immediately have a feminine voice without any additional work. He made it very clear that I would still have to train myself to actually use the higher frequency. He also made it clear what the recovery period is like, with the first 2 months being almost no change and then a gradual change from that point on up to the 6-month mark, and a full recovery after 1 year (so long as you follow all of the instructions, obviously). Yes, it seems some have faster results, but unless you've actually followed all of his post-op instructions, had no complications, and have waited the full year, I don't think it's fair to lay blame on Dr. Kim or the surgical technique as to why you are not hearing the results you're looking for. Also, sometimes there are unfortunate anomalies.
Kiwi, you explicitly said that you talked and/or whispered a lot after the surgery, especially within that first week, which is a big no-no. I don't find it surprising that your early recovery and results are not as quick to come as, say, Jenny's. Also, if you didn't want to wait a year before seeing the full results then why did you get the surgery to begin with knowing that that was going to be the case? All of the details Jenny and I have been describing are things that I'm sure Dr. Kim expressed to you as well, I don't see why he wouldn't have. And even if not, you had Jenny's descriptions to go off of, since you were aware of her recovery process well before you had your surgery, since you were posting in her thread the whole time. It sounds like you went in with the wrong expectations.
voodle, unfortunately for you I would have to say that the whole issue with the blood clot and coughing in the beginning may be the cause of your lack of results. With that type of complication so early on coupled with not seeing the results you're hoping, it makes sense. I can definitely understand why it would be hard to not be able to talk for a full 2 months, but if I had an issue like that after a surgery I would want to make sure I try to follow what the doctor says to make sure I do everything I can to get the best results. Did you actually stay quiet for 2 months? If not then I really don't know what to tell you, as you didn't follow the instructions given to you. Have you tried contacting Dr. Kim again to see what other options you have? Maybe there is something else he would recommend to help the recovery so you can see better results, or even a redo of the surgery...? Really, to me I think your recordings before were good, so we're kind of coming at this from two different angles.
I don't want to seem like I'm just blindly backing Yeson, but from what I've heard I don't see anything that skews the results and promises that Yeson describes. So far we can see that those who had no complications and followed the instructions are having good results and those that did have complications or didn't follow the instructions are having less-than-anticipated results. I say it that way since I myself don't think either voodle or Kiwi's voices sound bad. Yeah, they're not necessarily as high as Jenny or Abby's, but they definitely don't sound male to me.
Sarah, yoursmall words there sound already really nice. Probably you can only hear them when you poke the mic almost into your mouth but thats ok for now :P
If this is any indication - it seems that you got the same initially great result as Jenny did and so if you follow the same healing path it will certainly be great! 225Hz - thats way up there. I think I would not even want that :P - But I would not get it anyways. totally makes sense though 150+75->225. Exactly on par.
What you say about the issues of Kiwi and voodle makes some sense. I get the impression that maybe that recovery period is really crucial. People I conversed with here in Germany told me that the glottoplasty is something that can cause hoarseness or a lack in change in pitch. The few reports I read about it did not indicate to me that patients were given as strict instructions as in Korea. Maybe a key difference actually is the aftercare. I have a theory, I dont know if it makes sense: If you strain your vocal chords immediately after surgery, the parts that have been operated on may be tender and stretch more easily, so the vocal chords actually increase a bit in length or to put it another way they loose tension. vocal chord tension is a major factor in pitch (there are VFS that focus solely on vocal chord tensioning). I they give way only ba a millimeter, that may be quite a dramatic effect I can imagine. Another issue may be scarring - if the chords are hurt, they may scar and thus thicken and thick vocal chords are another issue that causes pitch drop. Puberty for us did two things - the larynx grew and thus the chords became longer and the chords grew thicker - both caused a deeper voice. The sad thing about this is the I can imagine that you cannot really redo that surgery and get improvements unless you go to a higher closure of the opening, I personally think 1/3 is already the max, but it seems 50% are possible. So if you got a 1/3 suture you may go to 50% but thats it then. Or you have to choose another technique. I know that one TV-transgender woman had first a vocal chord stretching with little success, then a glottoplasty (Y-suture) with again not much success and then went to Portland for a complete reconstruction of the larynx and afterwards sounds fine but the voice has lost some quality from all of this.
Sarah- I agree 100% with your last post. Honestly I'm feeling quite exhausted from all of the explaining and re-explaining. Frequently feeling like I need to defend Yeson doesn't seem right to me when the person pointing a finger at them did not heed the post-op instructions. Even more-so, if a person doesn't do the necessary amount of research about recovery timetables for such a major life altering surgery- how is that being ripped off ??? I don't want to be stuck in this position any further having to back up the credibility of this amazing procedure. It speaks for itself in the results of those of us who did their research and explicitly follow the post-op care instructions.
Kiwi- I am referring to you in my comment to Sarah. It seems like every other day or so you want to get on these boards and negatively flame about your Yeson experience somehow, and frankly I am tired of it. I don't think it's right or fair to try to post negativity about Yeson, when in reality if you are unhappy with your result it will be due to error or disregard of pre-op information on your part. To make things even more confusing, you tend to come back right after a negative post with a positive one saying how you love your voice. I cannot handle all of this back and forth. I think you should take responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming it on Yeson on a public forum. As you can see, we are not going to tolerate it.
voodle- While you haven't been pointing fingers at all and have been very straightforward and understanding with the reality of your situation, you did choose to disregard Dr. Kim's instructions as well. I think at this point you need to be honest with Jessie about it if you haven't already. Maybe there is something else she can recommend to help you out. After hearing your voice though, your result sounds just fine to me. If I were to hear your samples with no comment or description attached, I would think it is another shining example of Yeson VFS. I think you should be very happy with your result.
Anja- please understand that by voicing concerns to those of us who are pleased with our results based on people who chose to disregard parts of the post-op care is going to wear us out. I know you are concerned about so many aspects of this procedure, but perhaps your questions are being fueled by experiences that were more the product of patient error than error in the procedure itself. I think that these fine details or potential issues you seek to know more about are much better taken up with Jessie who can talk to the doctor himself. After all, he has the most experience with seeing the results of the surgery and has done all of the research.
And last but not least... Sarah... your newest recording.. I can't believe how good your voice sounds already. Holy what?! 225hz off the bat?? I have no doubt that you are going to have a stellar result, and I can't wait to hear more :)
In the end, I think these recent discussions are a shining example of how important post-op recovery care is for this surgery. The voice is one of the most delicate parts of our bodies and needs to be treated as such- no matter how risk-free or minimally invasive the approach.
Quote from: Jennygirl on November 22, 2013, 04:30:39 PM
Sarah- I agree 100% with your last post. Honestly I'm feeling quite exhausted from all of the explaining and re-explaining. Frequently feeling like I need to defend Yeson doesn't seem right to me when the person pointing a finger at them did not heed the post-op instructions. Even more-so, if a person doesn't do the necessary amount of research about recovery timetables for such a major life altering surgery- how is that being ripped off ??? I don't want to be stuck in this position any further having to back up the credibility of this amazing procedure. It speaks for itself in the results of those of us who did their research and explicitly follow the post-op care instructions.
Kiwi- I am referring to you in my comment to Sarah. It seems like every other day or so you want to get on these boards and negatively flame about your Yeson experience somehow, and frankly I am tired of it. I don't think it's right or fair to try to post negativity about Yeson, when in reality if you are unhappy with your result it will be due to error or disregard of pre-op information on your part. To make things even more confusing, you tend to come back right after a negative post with a positive one saying how you love your voice. I cannot handle all of this back and forth. I think you should take responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming it on Yeson on a public forum. As you can see, we are not going to tolerate it.
voodle- While you haven't been pointing fingers at all and have been very straightforward and understanding with the reality of your situation, you did choose to disregard Dr. Kim's instructions as well. I think at this point you need to be honest with Jessie about it if you haven't already. Maybe there is something else she can recommend to help you out. After hearing your voice though, your result sounds just fine to me. If I were to hear your samples with no comment or description attached, I would think it is another shining example of Yeson VFS. I think you should be very happy with your result.
Anja- please understand that by voicing concerns to those of us who are pleased with our results based on people who chose to disregard parts of the post-op care is going to wear us out. I know you are concerned about so many aspects of this procedure, but perhaps your questions are being fueled by experiences that were more the product of patient error than error in the procedure itself. I think that these fine details or potential issues you seek to know more about are much better taken up with Jessie who can talk to the doctor himself. After all, he has the most experience with seeing the results of the surgery and has done all of the research.
And last but not least... Sarah... your newest recording.. I can't believe how good your voice sounds already. Holy what?! 225hz off the bat?? I have no doubt that you are going to have a stellar result, and I can't wait to hear more :)
In the end, I think these recent discussions are a shining example of how important post-op recovery care is for this surgery. The voice is one of the most delicate parts of our bodies and needs to be treated as such- no matter how risk-free or minimally invasive the approach.
Jenny welcome to my world. re explaining and defending your doctor is now your new second job...or maybe 3rd job.. :-\
Please do not post things here claiming I have said them. READ my posts and you will see that I am thrilled with this surgery. My personal experience at Yeson was not pleasant but that had nothing to do with my voice. It was to do with having a bridge knocked out and an orange sized bruise on my shoulder which no one can explain.
I spoke with Jessie last week and she was happy with my voice. So am I, and some have commented about it here.
Chinese Whispers...are happening here and I don't like it.
Being ripped off was in no way meant to refer to Yeson, I meant it generally because of who we are.
Chinese Whispers are happening here and I don't like it! >:(
Okay friends :)
Having a discussion is fine, but when it turns into arguing and such then it's time to take a break
Topic locked
Thank you
V M
Okay Folks :)
Let's review a few rules from the Site Terms of Service and rules to live by (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
Quote7. Leave moderation to the moderators! Susan and her staff are the only people who are authorized to deny anyone access to this web site including telling someone to leave, or to stop discussing a topic. If someone wishes to discuss a subject that you are not interested in, suggest a new subject; go to another of the many areas on this site; or ignore that person, topic, or discussion. If you feel a person's post violates the rules of this site use the report this post function.
Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
Quote15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.
Keep the conversation civil, any more finger pointing and/or arguing will not be tolerated and penalties will be issued for any further rule violations
Play nice or find something more constructive to do with your time
Topic Unlocked
Thank you
V M
Thank you, V.M - I definitely want to hear more about Sarahs so far great experiences in Korea. I hope you will keep writing, Sarah even if there was a bit of discussion in the past posts now. But as you and the others said - Kiwi seems to actually still be positive about her result overall, voodle is discovering how to get along with her voice now after the complications she had and hopefully find a way to improve, maybe with Jessies help, Jenny and Abby did really great , probably because they had less complications and as it seems, you have no complications, so you will be doing great!!! :laugh: :D
So you will soon be on your way back from Korea or will you have another exam there after 10 or 14 days? What will be next - just waiting for the 4 week timepoint to test some more words? Will you do a examination when you are back home with a specialist there? they should at least be able to see if the healing looks fine, just to be sure... :)
You are doing great so far and I am excited to hear about your experiences with doing this after a long time of using a feminized voice already.
Greetings.
Anja
Quote from: anjaq on November 23, 2013, 08:06:15 AM
- Kiwi seems to actually still be positive about her result overall
Anja
I have always been. And thrilled that we can have this surgery. For the cost I think it is good value for money. Why (and how) other's interpreted my not being happy (with my VFS) is a mystery known only to the person who started it. Chinese Whispers...
Of course I wasn't pleased about having a bridge knocked out of my mouth (during surgery) or the mystery orange-sized bruise on my shoulder, or being called "he"...but my thread has my voice on it and like I said, I couldn't be happier. Just waiting to start my voice exercises...
This came from Jessie (Yeson) on November 5th...Dear Hope
It's glad to hear from you, Hope. You are still in the recovery stage that it is possible that you wouldn't notice any pitch increase.
From the time you do your vocal function exercise, you will notice gradual increase in your pitch. You can start the exercises on December 8th.
Please refer to the link below. You can follow this video one month later.
:D
Great, Kiwi - Keep us updated when you do start with the exercises in 2 weeks :)
So I'm finally officially 2 weeks post-op today (well, at 3pm PST really). I did another voice recording this morning and it's getting a lot better with each new day! There are two recordings I'm going to share. One is from last night and the other is from this morning. They are both the same phrase, but the one from this morning sounds waaay better! I'm not sure if it's because I was focusing on it more this morning, or it was just late last night and I was tired, or I actually healed more, but either way I love how it's starting to sound, especially for only being 2 weeks post-op!
You might recognize the phrase :) I took Jenny's phrase that she posted around this same time in her recovery so I could have a good baseline to compare the quality of our voices. From what I can tell I'm pretty much on the same path as her with regard to voice quality and pitch during the recovery.
Recording #1
So here's the first recording from last night. You can hear that I'm still not focusing really on resonance or anything, so it still has a sort of falsetto-y, breathy, hoarse sound to it. The pitch is there, but without any additional voice control it still kind of sounds weird. The average frequency is 211Hz, with a low of 175Hz and a high of 264Hz.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/just-a-little-test/s-MUscz
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi669.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv56%2Ftheartoflogic%2FTS%2FYeson%2FScreenShot2013-11-25at81406AM_zps70a4bfae.png&hash=7318be01699bf4e0abbb2af6fc9d0737cd8cc9d3)
Recording #2
And here's the second recording from this morning. If you can tell, there's a lot more vocal control in this one and so it sounds much more natural. The average frequency is 217Hz, with a low of 189Hz and a high of 287Hz.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/just-a-little-test-2/s-zV7kE
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For accessibility, here is a link to the entire set of recordings I've done so far: https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/sets/yeson
You are right, the second one from the morning is better and actually it really is great! You really are on the same good path as Jenny was at that stage, so I am sure you will do great!
Hehe, I just emailed Jessie (?) to ask for email contact now to get first contact there, when I get my endocope videos I will send her ans ask what they think. What do they need for an assessment if their method would be working and to say if it is something that really would be needed or not? Should I also send voice recordings? Or dont they do a lot of assessment and consultation before and you just make the decision and make an appointment, fly there and get your examination there and then the surgery no matter what (unless the exam turns out to show a contraindication)?
Wonderful, Sarah :D You are doing extremely well, it sounds!
Anja- send it all to them. I bet Dr. Kim will have a look at it and appreciate that you care so much about your vocal cords. Either way it never hurts to try!
Thanks guys! I'm extremely happy with the results so far. And it feels good to finally be past the major hurdles, now I think it's just smooth sailing for the next two weeks until I can start general conversation.
I think starting today I'm going to start saying a few limited yes/no responses, since that's really what Dr. Kim said I could do a week ago. It's kind of a little confusing since it says to stick to 2-3 words a day mainly, but when he was explaining it himself he said stick to short yes/no answers throughout the day. So I feel comfortable maybe using it a tiny bit more than just simply 2-3 words a day. I'm still going to stick to probably 15-20 words a day though and no more than 1-3 word responses in general, no more than that as I'm sure the Botox is still going to be affecting my voice, as well as still being within the first month of recovery.
Jenny/Abby, when did you start increasing from 2-3 words a day to something like 15-20 words a day before general conversation? Or did you actually stick to 2-3 words a day for the entire first month?
Sarah, just a question. Would you say your voice is different (unrecognizable to someone who knew you) or just softened (at this point) in your recovery?
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on November 25, 2013, 05:15:35 PM
Sarah, just a question. Would you say your voice is different (unrecognizable to someone who knew you) or just softened (at this point) in your recovery?
As far as pitch goes, I've never really talked in this high of a pitch during general conversation so it'll likely sound different in that regard to people. However, the overall sound of my voice has not changed, and it actually sounds remarkably similar to my pre-op high female voice, albeit softened a bit. I really feel that it's going to end up pretty much at my high female voice that I did pre-op, maybe a little higher, but now that'll be my default with little or no effort as opposed to having to force it into that voice. I actually liked that voice quite a bit, and with the additional changes that the surgery will have made like cutting out the lower register, allowing me to use more of the force to project rather than phonate, and fixing some of the vocal issues I had I think it'll end up turning out exactly how I had hoped. Well, at least that's what I'm aiming for.
Quote
voodle, unfortunately for you I would have to say that the whole issue with the blood clot and coughing in the beginning may be the cause of your lack of results. With that type of complication so early on coupled with not seeing the results you're hoping, it makes sense. I can definitely understand why it would be hard to not be able to talk for a full 2 months, but if I had an issue like that after a surgery I would want to make sure I try to follow what the doctor says to make sure I do everything I can to get the best results. Did you actually stay quiet for 2 months? If not then I really don't know what to tell you, as you didn't follow the instructions given to you. Have you tried contacting Dr. Kim again to see what other options you have? Maybe there is something else he would recommend to help the recovery so you can see better results, or even a redo of the surgery...? Really, to me I think your recordings before were good, so we're kind of coming at this from two different angles.
I think we're in very different places in our relative transitions, I went fulltime after getting back from Korea and honestly my voice was not great before or once I was able to talk. Some responses I'd had from someone else that had the surgery implied that the surgery would make more of a difference than I found it did.
Regarding the blood clot... I'll make a thread about this soon perhaps but suffice it to say, that was harmless as far as I'm aware but that's why they said to wait. I've had two stroboscopies performed since then; Dr Kim verified that there was no issue with the healing after I showed them the videos. The speech therapist I see (Gary Wood), said that the vocal chords had healed well after the clot cleared. I most definitely did limit talking after seeing my speech therapist though and didn't start talking normally until 5 weeks after the surgery (the best I could arrange with work). My job involves telephone support so that wasn't really an option beyond then.
I'm sorry for bringing this into the thread.
Quotevoodle- While you haven't been pointing fingers at all and have been very straightforward and understanding with the reality of your situation, you did choose to disregard Dr. Kim's instructions as well. I think at this point you need to be honest with Jessie about it if you haven't already. Maybe there is something else she can recommend to help you out. After hearing your voice though, your result sounds just fine to me. If I were to hear your samples with no comment or description attached, I would think it is another shining example of Yeson VFS. I think you should be very happy with your result.
I am of the opinion that yes, the surgery did do a lot (I can compare with some old recordings) but I have had a rough time healing up and learning how to use my voice.
Anyways, yeah. I've been avoiding this forum for a few days but I was hoping to share my experiences with other people that have had the surgery, not many people have had it.
Hey voodle, I'm sorry that your recovery isn't going as smooth as you hoped it would. I would say just continue practicing your voice and hopefully it will fall into place as time goes on. If you went full-time right after surgery and didn't have much practice with your feminine voice before that (which sounds like that's the case...?) then I would say that you should definitely focus on working on that. I've had almost 7 years of using my feminine voice before having the surgery, so I think I have been able to get resonance and inflection down more than someone who is just starting out.
This surgery only deals with pitch, and even then you still have to train your brain to default to the higher pitch or it'll want to try to go back down to a more familiar range. Along with that you'll need to still learn all of the other things that go along with pitch to create a naturally-sounding feminine voice. It'll likely be easier to work on those things now that you don't have to strain as much to get the pitch though, but you'll have to put some work in to make the most out of this surgery.
I think you'll do fine after a bit of practice and focus though :) keep us updated on your progress!
I have another couple of recordings to share. I'm still not saying anything else really outside of these recordings. I'm trying to let the healing process go as smoothly as possible. I'll see how I feel about it next week once I'm 3 weeks post-op and closer to being able to resume general conversation, but I think maybe next week I'll start actually responding with yes/no answers and such.
Recording #1:
This recording is from yesterday night. With each recording I'm trying to focus on resonance and everything more and more so I can start integrating it into the higher pitch. It's still kind of hard to talk due to not having talked for over 2 weeks now, having to get used to the new vocal folds, and with the Botox still affecting my vocal folds. I think the sound of the voice is getting better each day, and my strength to be able to phonate is slowly coming back as well. I think next week things will really start progressing, and especially the week after that once I start talking again.
I think I was focusing a little bit to get a higher pitch on this one, although the effort was very, very small. The average frequency is 231Hz, with a low of 201Hz and a high of 283Hz.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/just-2-more-weeks-to-go/s-ey1Lo
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Recording #2:
This recording is from this morning. I think compared to the previous recording of the same phrase it sounds a little better, but there's not much change overall.
The average frequency is 217Hz, with a low of 190Hz and a high of 305Hz. It's kind of crazy that the high is at 305Hz, which I didn't even feel like I was straining at all to do that.
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/just-a-little-test-3/s-VKRBz
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Wow, Sarah, you are sounding wonderful to these tin ears! I hope your healing continues to go well!
You sound great Sarah! I'm so happy for you and that it has worked as you'd hoped. I'd never considered voice surgery because I'd heard I'd end up sounding like Minnie Mouse, but that was years ago and obviously the process has improved and is swaying my mind.
Great - I just scrolled back to the pre op recordings and it sounds to me like you are now in the "elevated female" voice which pre op you wrote took some effort.
Quote from: anjaq on November 27, 2013, 04:31:56 PM
Great - I just scrolled back to the pre op recordings and it sounds to me like you are now in the "elevated female" voice which pre op you wrote took some effort.
Yeah, I remember doing the high pre-op voice and it definitely took effort, and even then it only averaged to 190Hz or something. Now speaking as I am in these recordings I am easily hitting 215Hz+, and with just the smallest amount of effort it easily goes up to the 230Hz range. Once I am able to start talking again I think it'll really start to click, as I'll be able to actually spend some time really working on the resonance and everything again. As it is now, these sentences are too short, so by the time I can try to control the voice more I've already said the phrase. There's really no time to work on it with such little clips.
Thanks Liz and Grace! It's nice to know it's sounding good to others as well!
Sarah, you sound FANTASTIC! And this early in the recovery too!!! I am so happy for you. :)
I concur. Your result is sounding utterly fantastic for being so early in recovery!
Thank you thank you thank you!! :-)
I'm so excited for the next couple of weeks to pass so I can start talking again. It's been really tough not talking for 2 1/2 weeks! I'm still doing good with being patient and not talking, so I think I'll make it through the next 2 weeks ok. But once general conversation can begin again...oh boy am I going to talk! haha
From what I am able to hear, you sound very good :)
Quote from: SarahR on November 27, 2013, 11:49:28 AM
I have another couple of recordings to share. I'm still not saying anything else really outside of these recordings. I'm trying to let the healing process go as smoothly as possible. I'll see how I feel about it next week once I'm 3 weeks post-op and closer to being able to resume general conversation, but I think maybe next week I'll start actually responding with yes/no answers and such.
Sarah,
You now have lovely woman's voice. Your voice is beautiful. Congrats!
Hoping to listen your fully recovered voice soon,
barbie~~
Today I've noticed a huge increase in the strength and quality of my voice. It's easier to get words out, they're clearer, cleaner, and less hoarse/breathy. This is the first time it feels pretty natural when I talk, as I don't have to force it so much and it doesn't sound so hoarse.
I still have about 10 days until I can start general conversation, but I think today (being officially 3 weeks post-op) has brought with it some great improvements! I'm extremely happy with the results so far, especially now that I'm starting to finally get strength back in my voice and I can start to actually hear it with some clarity! I do feel that my voice is still somewhat monotone overall, as I'm sure the Botox is still affecting my vocal folds, but I can already sense that it's starting to get better as I approach 1 month.
Overall I'm thrilled with the progress so far! It's kind of crazy that I still have almost a month and a half to go until I'm past the initial 2 month recovery period. I can't wait until then to really hear what it sounds like.
Glad to hear that Sarah!
Can't wait to hear you speak freely!
I still have 6 days until I can start general conversation, but I thought I'd do a little longer recording today. I think it sounds pretty good, although you can hear near the end it still cuts out every now and then until I regain more strength in my voice.
After cutting out the anomalies that Praat sometimes has, the average frequency comes out to 195Hz. For this recording I was trying to not raise the pitch at all, and I can tell that I still have a ways to go until I can really meld the new pitch with proper resonance and inflection control so it doesn't sound so monotone. I think I was pretty close to bottoming out in this recording (which is why it cuts out a little near the end). It's hard to go below like 170Hz, and in a lot of the recording I'm between 185-190Hz.
To me it sounds a lot lighter than my old voice. It has a more natural sound to it, and definitely doesn't sound as forced as my pre-op recording does. I'm noticing that I'm settling in a lower range somewhere between 190-205Hz as the recovery progresses. This may be because I'm still not used to using a higher frequency, I tend to speak in the lower ranges normally, or I still have a lot of recovery to go. I think it's a mixture of all three of those really.
I'm really amazed with the recovery so far and how it's sounding, and it's only going to get better as I regain strength, re-introduce full resonance and inflection, and increase my range after 2+ months! I think once I can start general conversation again it's really going to start to take shape too!
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/longer-recording/s-WcEnH
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For accessibility, here is a link to the entire set of recordings I've done so far: https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/sets/yeson
*Amazing*
Wow Sarah. Your voice sounds absolutely amazing.
Congratulations, Sarah! You sound marvelous. And so do all the other voices I've heard on this board and elsewhere that were given the Dr. Kim touch. I'm negotiating an appointment with Jessie at the moment for mid-April. I don't wanna scare anyone: that's not how long their waiting list is, though, but mid-April is the beginning of a timespan of over 2 months when I don't have any jobs that require me to sing (backup vocals, I wouldn't dare singing lead until I was about half a year past the procedure).
Regards,
Amy
Quote from: SarahR on December 06, 2013, 12:20:37 PM
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/longer-recording/s-WcEnH
Yes. Without doubt, lovely women's voice.
Today my little daughter murmured that my voice would reveal that I am a man, despite my looking feminine. Nowadays she preaches a lot to both me and my wife.
barbie~~
I seriously LOVE my voice! Today is the first time I'm starting to talk a little bit at work again and it's amazing! This last week has shown a lot of improvement in the quality of the voice, and each day it gets better. I'm flying out to Austin, TX tomorrow for work and will be there until next Tuesday, so I'll be doing quite a bit of talking. Depending on how you measure a month, I'm either fine starting general conversation today (4 weeks) or on Wednesday (by day of month). I'm still going to try to keep talking to a minimum today and tomorrow though, just to be safe.
I'm listening to my previous recordings I did pre-op and I just can't believe it. I'm easily at, or past, the "high" pre-op recording without even trying. The tone and softness of the voice is way better, and I no longer have to force it to get it that high of a pitch. It just comes out that way. I'm only half way through the major portion of the recovery though, so I still have a LOT of progress to make. My voice is still hoarse and it's hard to get a lot of volume. Also, after a bit of talking the quality starts to diminish in that it gets a little more scratchy as I go along until I let it rest.
I'll probably be doing the rainbow passage for Yeson some time after Wednesday, so I'll post it here when I do.
I decided to record a new Rainbow Passage today. The average frequency is somewhere around 195Hz-205Hz, with a low around 172Hz and a high around 296Hz. Obviously, my voice still has a ways to go until I'm fully recovered, so it's still a little scratchy, and the quality can improve a lot. Compared to my pre-op voice, it's a pretty dramatic change already though!
1 Month Pre-Op:
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/rainbow-passage-low/s-meihH
1 Month Post-Op:
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/rainbow-passage-post-op-2013-12-10/s-9ISHB
MAGIC! ;D
Sarah, I think you will probably have the best sounding result from Yeson yet. You already sound fantastic already at only 1 month. At 2 months you will notice a huge difference when the upper part of your chest register starts to open up.
Way-to-go! You sound GREAT!!!
Hi Sarah,
very good indeed, after only 1 month! The scratchiness will fade over time and you'll have a wonderful voice! Congratulations!
Jenny, how is the singing coming along? I keep thinking that in addition to speaking clips, I should also collect some singing samples (all of the same song) before I go in April, in full male voice, and in the low (perfect 4th up) and the elevated versions (perfect 5th up) of its feminized version, and eventually record the same song again when I've recovered enough, maybe 3-4 months post-op, at whichever pitch it may then fall, in order to put some data points on the effect of the surgery on the singing voice on the map...
Regards,
Amy
Thats a pretty good idea, Amy. I would love to hear this comparison and I also would love to hear if Jenny is ready to sing now, even if she will not record it ;) - I am also looking forward to getting the first impressions of fully healed voices after the one year mark. Early the next year this should be the case for Jenny at least :D
And I think for 1 month, Sarah this sounds really great - of course there are rough spots in there and the vocal range seems limited, but I guess it is another month of not speaking too much anyways at the moment, right?
Jessi from Yesons is nice by the way. I sent some information of mine to her and she really replied back within a day telling me that Dr Kim will take a look at it when he is back in a week. I sent them pictures and a video of my voice exam as well as the paper by Dr Gross from Berlin to ask how their method differs. Lets see what they will say. She sent me back an info package.
These are all such startling and positive results! Congratulations!
My guess is I'll be ready to sing somewhere around the 1 year mark, maybe a little sooner.
Right now I'm battling a sinus and chest cold of the virus variety so any progress I was making is temporarily halted ;)
My voice is definitely getting stronger, I just haven't been that good about practicing singing very often. It will be even harder for me to record myself singing because even with my old voice I doubt I would be comfortable with it.
I'm looking forward to going home for the holidays, where I will have the opportunity to sing some at the xmas church service without others hearing me.
Dear Anja, dear Jenny, dear all,
Quote from: anjaq on December 11, 2013, 04:21:30 AM
I sent them pictures and a video of my voice exam as well as the paper by Dr Gross from Berlin to ask how their method differs. Lets see what they will say.
Jessie indeed appears to be a very nice and helpful person. I'm SOOO curious what Dr. Kim will have to say re the difference of the two methods.
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 11, 2013, 01:38:04 PM
My voice is definitely getting stronger, I just haven't been that good about practicing singing very often. It will be even harder for me to record myself singing because even with my old voice I doubt I would be comfortable with it.
I wish you a speedy recovery from your cold. And please don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to put you on the spot or pressure you in any way about singing. It's just that, as a musician, I crave for every snippet of information as to what the effect will be on the singing voice. So please excuse me for being so curious. Of course you don't have to record yourself singing if you're not comfortable with it.
Meanwhile I'm pretty sold on the idea of going to Yeson in April. The speaking voice is almost guaranteed to be better and less of a strain afterwards, and the voice I can currently use for singing is a pain in the butt to support for a mediocre sound in return. So I have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
Amy
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 11, 2013, 03:07:05 PM
I wish you a speedy recovery from your cold. And please don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to put you on the spot or pressure you in any way about singing. It's just that, as a musician, I crave for every snippet of information as to what the effect will be on the singing voice. So please excuse me for being so curious. Of course you don't have to record yourself singing if you're not comfortable with it.
Meanwhile I'm pretty sold on the idea of going to Yeson in April. The speaking voice is almost guaranteed to be better and less of a strain afterwards, and the voice I can currently use for singing is a pain in the butt to support for a mediocre sound in return. So I have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
Amy
Thanks for the speedy recovery wish, it appears to already be working ;D I really appreciate it!!
And that's exactly how I felt going into Yeson as well.. Nothing to lose and everything to gain :)
Thanks guys, I really appreciate the positive feedback. It's nice to be able to talk again, although I've noticed that I can overdue it if I talk too much throughout the day. I think I still need to give my voice some time to rest after a lengthy spout of talking. I haven't been able to sleep since yesterday yet due to work and I can definitely tell it's taking a toll on my voice (along with the rest of my body, lol). Sleep and resting the voice is definitely a must once you resume talking, especially since you're vocal folds aren't used to so much activity after a month of inactivity.
I also have noticed that I have to actively try not to tense my throat muscles like I did before surgery. After so many years of talking with the higher pitch I subconsiously tense and tweak my throat and voice box, however, I no longer have to do that to get to the frequency I need so I'm unnecessarily limiting myself and lowering the quality of the voice. It's an interesting (and great!) thing to have to focus on post-op.
Quote from: SarahR on December 11, 2013, 05:56:21 PM
I also have noticed that I have to actively try not to tense my throat muscles like I did before surgery. After so many years of talking with the higher pitch I subconsiously tense and tweak my throat and voice box, however, I no longer have to do that to get to the frequency I need so I'm unnecessarily limiting myself and lowering the quality of the voice. It's an interesting (and great!) thing to have to focus on post-op.
This part REALLY interests me a lot as I think this is what would happen to me too if I decide for the surgery. I am totally used to tweak a lot with my voice box to give it the voice I have now. In part it is because of resonance control, in part because of pitch. Is it manageable to separate the two, keeping the tension where needed for resonance and loosening it up elsewhere to pitch? Does the pitch still go up if you tense it the same way as you did before or does it just change other things? I totally want to hear more of this as I believe this is probably one of the most beneficial parts for women who have been using their voices differently for a long time already and are straining it. For me at least this would be one of the main reasons to do this, to get rid of the straining it takes now to just speak regularly. Please keep telling about this and if you like, I would be interested in a description on what is happening there. :)
Yeah Sarah I noticed the same thing about sleep and voice use. It is so important to rest your voice adequately until it becomes strong again. It will take a while for that to go away. After 7 months now it is almost completely gone, but a night of yelling or loud extended conversations is still enough to make my voice feel fatigued the next day. Nowhere near as fatigued as it used to get though.
Hang in there, it does get a lot stronger :)
Dear Anja,
Quote from: anjaq on December 11, 2013, 08:11:47 PM
I am totally used to tweak a lot with my voice box to give it the voice I have now. In part it is because of resonance control, in part because of pitch. Is it manageable to separate the two, keeping the tension where needed for resonance and loosening it up elsewhere to pitch? Does the pitch still go up if you tense it the same way as you did before or does it just change other things?
The two are completely separate aspects of the voice. Pitch is adjusted at the larynx level, resonance is adjusted above. And feminine resonance in the speaking range actually requires less muscular tension than masculine resonance. For me, in the beginning, it used to feel like deliberate relaxation. The exception is twang (a certain narrowing of the pharyngeal passage), which is necessary for maintaining female resonance at high volumes, which requires tension. But the muscles of the pharynx and the larynx can be worked independently, don't you worry.
Amy
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 11, 2013, 12:13:15 AM
MAGIC! ;D
Sarah, I think you will probably have the best sounding result from Yeson yet. You already sound fantastic already at only 1 month. At 2 months you will notice a huge difference when the upper part of your chest register starts to open up.
Way-to-go! You sound GREAT!!!
Oh, Jenny, I'm so glad YOU said that! I mean, I didn't want to offend if I said that I thought the very same thing. I think Sarah sounds incredible and 100% female. But then, all the Yeson girls sound incredible. Now I'm curious to know: is it JUST a Yeson thing, or has vocal surgery for MTFs improved across the board, so one can get the same effects from surgeons in Europe (or the States for you girls)?
I'd really like to hear before-and-afters from some other surgeons' work - see if anyone can match the all-conquering Yeson Effect! :)
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 12, 2013, 07:23:16 AM
The two are completely separate aspects of the voice. Pitch is adjusted at the larynx level, resonance is adjusted above. And feminine resonance in the speaking range actually requires less muscular tension than masculine resonance. [...] But the muscles of the pharynx and the larynx can be worked independently, don't you worry.
That totally explains why it is a bit harder for me now to try and re-create something like "my old voice". Good to hear that those are different. I still would like to hear Sarahs personal experience with it if it also FEELS like that - e.g. if it is easy to distinguish it when trying to relax ;)
Less tension sounds great in a way, though my voice therapist now actually tries a bit to increase stretching tension (but reduce "compressing" tension) to get rid of my gaps. Sadly she is on vacation now until the end of January, so I need to do my own training for a while. Maybe she will have a replacement but thats a guy and she said that he will probably not be able to lead the tones/notes that are part of the therapy (this time she said we went from a "g" up by 3 octaves almost to a higher c - I am not sure if thats really right, I think it was from a G up to a G 3 octaves higher spanning 100 Hz to 800 Hz) - which is in a way cool - my voice seems to have more room towards the top than I would have guessed.
But I have a more "technical" question again. I was at my voice therapist today, showed her the photos of my vocal chords that I posted in my thread and the video that goes with it and she said that she had never seen something like that with the double gap, the posterior one she said is a "typical womans problem" and that she has seen that often and can try to fix, though my vocal chords in that area seem to be atrophied a bit. But the anterior gap next to the commissure, that one is new for her. So she again mentioned the option of having VFS which would basically close that gap by suturing it. What she was worried about was that with such a suture there would always be a strain on the vocal chords and the new commissure, even when just breathing as when the vocal chords just open to let air through, there would still be a pull on the chords. Has anyone asked at Yesons about this or did they say anthing on this?
Quote from: Carlita on December 12, 2013, 07:37:41 AM
Now I'm curious to know: is it JUST a Yeson thing, or has vocal surgery for MTFs improved across the board, so one can get the same effects from surgeons in Europe (or the States for you girls)?
I know everyone is still scared about VFS. The most positive comments I got was about Dr Thomas because he also seems to change resonance which is a huge factor for those girls who cannot do that by themselves and for whom a pitch change would not be enough. I am getting more the feeling than ever now that the precision of the suturing of the tip of the "V" in the vocal chords is what makes this clinic so good. It is a delicate point and quite important it seems. I am worried a bit about what my voice therapist saying that there is a lot of pull on that and hope that this does not mean that there could be long time negative effects of this. But as long as that shape stays perfect, I imagine the voice will be great as well :) - I need to talk to that friend of mine who did that kind of surgery 10 years ago but hers was not that great to begin with, so it may not be a good example.
Quote from: anjaq on December 12, 2013, 08:03:13 AM
I know everyone is still scared about VFS. The most positive comments I got was about Dr Thomas because he also seems to change resonance which is a huge factor for those girls who cannot do that by themselves and for whom a pitch change would not be enough. I am getting more the feeling than ever now that the precision of the suturing of the tip of the "V" in the vocal chords is what makes this clinic so good. It is a delicate point and quite important it seems. I am worried a bit about what my voice therapist saying that there is a lot of pull on that and hope that this does not mean that there could be long time negative effects of this. But as long as that shape stays perfect, I imagine the voice will be great as well :) - I need to talk to that friend of mine who did that kind of surgery 10 years ago but hers was not that great to begin with, so it may not be a good example.
That's a very interesting observation, and makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
My only information comes from a meeting with a voice therapist in London a few years back, when I was on the verge of transitioning, but backed off - though I'll be returning to her for real in a few months!
She worked at the Gender Clinic at London's Charing Cross Hospital, which is the leading UK centre for all forms of treatment for men and women in transition. She told me that she had always been very sceptical about vocal surgery, but that the surgeons at Charing Cross were now able to produce results that made he reel it could be the thing to do - though only after proper training - just because (as many girls here have said) it's much more relaxing when you're no longer having to work at the female voice: when it is, in fact, the only voice you have. So it sounds like they were aiming for the same end-result as Yeson, but I'd just love to hear whether they - or anyone else - has succeeded.
Dear Anja,
Quote from: anjaq on December 12, 2013, 08:03:13 AM
(this time she said we went from a "g" up by 3 octaves almost to a higher c - I am not sure if thats really right, I think it was from a G up to a G 3 octaves higher spanning 100 Hz to 800 Hz) - which is in a way cool - my voice seems to have more room towards the top than I would have guessed.
That range is typical. If you're a bass, you should bottom out around D (73.4 Hz). Taking the G above that (98 Hz), your (male) chest voice (the lines between chest and head voice blur if you're using female resonance) should take you up around 2 octaves from there to g' (392 Hz), which in male resonance will only be available as a shout. Switching to head voice gives you the remaining octave up to g'' (784 Hz) or a bit higher. However, the top octave is excruciatingly hard to control musically. It blends in quite easily while speaking with female resonance, but singing in this range is a tough job.
Quote from: anjaq on December 12, 2013, 08:03:13 AM
So she again mentioned the option of having VFS which would basically close that gap by suturing it. What she was worried about was that with such a suture there would always be a strain on the vocal chords and the new commissure, even when just breathing as when the vocal chords just open to let air through, there would still be a pull on the chords. Has anyone asked at Yesons about this or did they say anthing on this?
When the vocal cords are approximated for phonation, there is hardly any additional strain, since, when running in parallel, the distance covered by the vocal folds, from the former commissure to the posterior end at the arytenoid cartilages, is precisely the same. The only thing that changes is the suture in between, creating the new commissure.
When the folds open up for breathing, things are different. Then the folds have to cover a greater distance due to the new commissure. But as the arytenoid cartilages are not designed to tense the vocal folds in their open state, their elasticity alone will determine how far they will open up. Which just means they'll open up a little bit less, which shouldn't cause a problem for breathing, though. Despite the huge influence of the diameter of an opening on the amount of viscous fluid that can pass through in a given timespan (cf. Hagen-Poiseuille's law, one of the few occurences of a 4th power proportionality), I hardly believe that the opening of the vocal folds is the narrowest part of the respiratory tract and thus the limiting factor for viscous flow. Or who has ever heard of natal women choking because of their naturally smaller larynx?
Bottom line: when the folds are apart and have a Y shape post-surgery, they're relaxed. When you tense them for singing or speaking at elevated pitch, they're approximated and in parallel, so there's no transversal component to the pull, and thus tearing up the Y juncture should be impossible. As far as physiological considerations go, the surgery should be safe.
Quote from: anjaq on December 12, 2013, 08:03:13 AM
I need to talk to that friend of mine who did that kind of surgery 10 years ago but hers was not that great to begin with, so it may not be a good example.
Was she a patient of Dr. Gross's?
Regards,
Amy
Thaks Amy for the great reply, yes it makes a lot of sense. I think I read somewhere that there is a risk of having some feeling of breathing less freely but it seems to be minor. The new commissure has to hold quite a bit still, I think - originally it is held by the cartilage I think, the new commissure then only is help by the vocal chords themselves... but you are right, there should not be too much strain on them when they are open, except maybe the additional strain coming just from the different shape which causes a bit of tension by itself...
I have not met that friend in a long while, I will have to see if she has time and ask her where she did that and how it went. I remember that she had a very deep voice and then had a very high voice - too high for her stature and since she did no training at all before the surgery, she sounded not quite good afterwards for a while. I need to check up on her. Another friend told me it sounds ok now, but still too high pitched for a tall woman
So 800 Hz is normal to reach? Ok. She made it sound a little bit like the TG people she has in her training dont always reach up that high, but maybe thats more a mental block for them.
Some great information Amy! You're like an encyclopedia of knowledge about the voice :) I'm so interested to hear your experience once you get the surgery.
So I flew into Austin, TX last night and today was my first full day of vocal activity with meetings and discussions at work, picking up a rental car, ordering food, etc. I got questions from a couple of people on why I couldn't talk before, but nobody remarked about my voice and how/why it sounds different (ahh, I must still sound like a guy! lol j/k). This is the most comfortable I've felt talking since I started transition! I still notice myself pausing before speaking, but then I speak and out comes (in Jenny's words) a pleasant surprise.
It just feels so natural to be speaking with this voice. Before the surgery one of my main desires was to achieve a voice I can call my own. I now have that! There is still a long road to full recovery, but every day I just get more and more excited to talk. There are things that I actively did before to try and limit the amount I have to talk that I'm noticing are changing. For instance, I would try not to make eye contact with people so they didn't try to spark up a conversation. Even when in a conversation, I would look away and try to end the conversation as soon as possible so I didn't have to talk as much. That's slowly changing as I realize that I no longer have to worry about my voice, and that's a great thing, not just for the fact that I feel so comfortable now, but also because I always felt like I was being rude and came off as too good to talk to them, which was far from the truth. I love conversing with people, and it's awesome to be able to feel comfortable doing it again.
Dear Anja and Sarah,
Quote from: anjaq on December 12, 2013, 06:46:01 PM
So 800 Hz is normal to reach? Ok. She made it sound a little bit like the TG people she has in her training dont always reach up that high, but maybe thats more a mental block for them.
The thing is that when trying to reach for approximately c'' (523 Hz) or higher, the vocal folds automagically kick into flageolet (which is known as "whistle register" in women), which means that they don't vibrate over their entire length any more, but are stiff in front (at the commissure) and in the back (at the arytenoids), leaving only a vibrating middle section. In this way, the effective speaking length and weight are reduced to help reach these high notes. Singers often say the cords "zip up".
Although everybody should be physically able to do this, it doesn't come easy for everybody. I've always done it naturally, so I can't say. But if you haven't found that way of phonation, you're likely going to top out far below the g''.
Quote from: SarahR on December 12, 2013, 11:08:33 PM
Before the surgery one of my main desires was to achieve a voice I can call my own.
Thou speakest to my condition. Although the practiced voice that I have does pass well, and before FFS I would routinely start a conversation with people if I felt I was getting a double take because of facial gender cues, the voice never felt like
mine. It felt more like an implement to make noise with, which I had to then go about chiseling into an approximation of a female voice. So the voice for me never was an extension, expression, and mirror of my soul, but rather an object, a foreign body, a crude and primitive instrument that was very hard to play at any level of perfection. If the surgery can change that, I'll be a happy camper.
Love,
Amy
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 13, 2013, 02:22:46 AM
The thing is that when trying to reach for approximately c'' (523 Hz) or higher, the vocal folds automagically kick into flageolet (which is known as "whistle register" in women), which means that they don't vibrate over their entire length any more, but are stiff in front (at the commissure) and in the back (at the arytenoids), leaving only a vibrating middle section. In this way, the effective speaking length and weight are reduced to help reach these high notes. Singers often say the cords "zip up".
:o - you mean a bit like this (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,153931.msg1305990.html#msg1305990)?!?
Correct me if I am wrong but this sounds quite a bit like what I am doing at normal speaking range - vibrating only in the middle section. This is odd...
Quoteit doesn't come easy for everybody. [...] if you haven't found that way of phonation, you're likely going to top out far below the g''.
If this would be similar to what I do regularly, it would make sense that I would be able to do that in the upper range as well ;)
Quote from: SarahR on December 12, 2013, 11:08:33 PM
This is the most comfortable I've felt talking since I started transition! I still notice myself pausing before speaking, but then I speak and out comes (in Jenny's words) a pleasant surprise.
It just feels so natural to be speaking with this voice. Before the surgery one of my main desires was to achieve a voice I can call my own. I now have that! There is still a long road to full recovery, but every day I just get more and more excited to talk. There are things that I actively did before to try and limit the amount I have to talk that I'm noticing are changing. For instance, I would try not to make eye contact with people so they didn't try to spark up a conversation....
This sounds so awesome and amazing. Indeed this is how it is for me too - I know most people will not say something about my voice or think weirdly, but I still dislike using it a lot and if so I keep checking it constantly. Just speaking without thinking sounds like the greatest thing ever!! I guess one still does watch to sound "clean" and not buzzing or rough, but that would feel much less alien, its more about sounding nicer and not so much about sounding female - so its not linked to dysphoria, so your post there really makes me long for this again. I know I promised my voice therapist to concentrate on therapy first, but this topic does not leave me alone ;)
Dear Anja,
Quote from: anjaq on December 13, 2013, 05:30:45 AM
:o - you mean a bit like this (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,153931.msg1305990.html#msg1305990)?!?
Au contraire. These pictures show that you developed a failure to have good cord closure. As your therapist said, a gap in the back is common in people who use a breathy voice, but the gap in front is a mystery to me. And yet and still, as the vocal cords are not touching at the anterior and posterior end, their entire mass will participate in the vibration.
Flageolet is an entirely different thing: the front and back (or sometimes only the front) of the vocal cords close tightly and do not participate in the vibration at all, so only the remaining portion takes part in the sound-producing process.
Quote from: anjaq on December 13, 2013, 05:30:45 AM
I know I promised my voice therapist to concentrate on therapy first, but this topic does not leave me alone ;)
It's like one of these hoarded dreams, isn't it? Folk wisdom says if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. But we're quickly amassing a pile of reliable data that this is indeed one of those rare exceptions; a solution to the age-old problem.
Best wishes,
Amy
Thanks for explaining that part on the vocal chords. I was just getting the "only part of the chords are active" thing as this is what my phoniater said. She also said however that the mass does not swing completely. The parts that are in the "gaps" seem to be rather stiff. I honestly dont know what is going on there - my voice therapist says she has never seen something like it - always "me the oddball" LOL. Lets see what Dr Kim says, I sent in the pictures So if I can go up to that high notes however, I guess I am able to close these gaps under these circumstances maybe. So I guess my therapist is right in going up there with me a lot to get into that mode more...
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 13, 2013, 06:32:06 AM
It's like one of these hoarded dreams, isn't it? Folk wisdom says if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. But we're quickly amassing a pile of reliable data that this is indeed one of those rare exceptions; a solution to the age-old problem.
That is what I was thinking - "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is", I guess this is why I am bugging poor Jenny and others here so much about it - I am sorry for that.
I dont know what a "hoearded dream" is but certainly this topic feel like something that has a strong pull. In a way it is like back then when it was about SRS - the same mixture of fear, anxiety, excitement, longing... Back then at some point I got drunk and let go and found that it did not make sense to keep pondering as I knew that I was going to do it anyways - this time I am not ready for that yet though. We'll see...
Dear Anja,
Quote from: anjaq on December 13, 2013, 06:47:35 AM
So I guess my therapist is right in going up there with me a lot to get into that mode more...
Flageolet is not for speaking. It's a mode that should be used for singing only, and only for the top notes. If you're trying to take the flageolet to the midrange, you could develop a "split" on the voice (which sounds like two notes at the same time), as the voice keeps slipping in and out of flageolet.
Quote from: anjaq on December 13, 2013, 06:47:35 AM
[...] this time I am not ready for that yet though. We'll see...
Not me. This surgery is basically what I was waiting for since age 14. Up until that time, I had a mezzo, clear as a bell. If there's anything that can restore this, or at least give me a nice, round alto, I'm SO ready to get on that table :-)
Amy
Hi all,
as an aside to the discussion on Yeson and the singing voice, I read that Sinae, one of the girls in the transgender K-pop band "Lady", had VFS with Yeson in Sept. 2006. From the few videos I could dig up of that short-lived group, her singing voice sounds absolutely normal and healthy, notwithstanding the abysmal quality of the tunes they perform. Nothing definite can be said of her range, as the tunes hardly call for any. But what can be said is that the critical midrange for transwomen, from e' to a', is good, clear, and strong.
Amy
Interesting. Yeah I did a search and found in a writing that she had a starting pitch of 170hz. I would imagine that was her practiced feminine pitch.
Hmm, interesting, that's cool to hear the singing voice of someone who had the surgery. You're right, it sounds completely natural to me too. Just another example of the amazing work Dr. Kim does.
By the way, here's a short video to show what my voice sounds like speaking naturally, as opposed to the rainbow passage. I also did another recording of the rainbow passage with a better mic so there's not so much background noise and hissing.
Oh, and I also threw in my low manly voice at the end of the video ;)
Rainbow Passage:
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/rainbow-passage-post-op-2013-12-13/s-mfHai?in=theartoflogic/sets/yeson/s-ey1Lo
http://youtu.be/0Qm6lXZ5u8s
Dear Jenny, dear Sarah,
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 13, 2013, 07:32:05 PM
[...] she had a starting pitch of 170hz. I would imagine that was her practiced feminine pitch.
I believe so. 170 Hz is between an e and an f. That's a whole 5th above male average, thus it's very unlikely to be her original pitch.
Quote from: SarahR on December 13, 2013, 11:16:53 PM
Hmm, interesting, that's cool to hear the singing voice of someone who had the surgery. You're right, it sounds completely natural to me too. Just another example of the amazing work Dr. Kim does.
Yes indeed. You've all heard about Stanley Milgram's Six Degrees of Separation, aka Small World Phenomenon. In the even smaller trans world, it must be down to three. As quite a few ladies from Korea have posted here and there in Jenny's thread, maybe one of them can put us in contact with Sinae or another singer patient of Dr. Kim's, so we can maybe find out more about the long-term effect of VFS on the singing voice.
Quote from: SarahR on December 13, 2013, 11:16:53 PM
By the way, here's a short video to show what my voice sounds like speaking naturally, as opposed to the rainbow passage. I also did another recording of the rainbow passage with a better mic so there's not so much background noise and hissing.
Excellent, congratulations! You sound great and 120% feminine! The voice still sticks to quite a narrow pitch range, but that should resolve with time and practice. You must be ecstatic with joy!
Quote from: SarahR on December 13, 2013, 11:16:53 PM
Oh, and I also threw in my low manly voice at the end of the video ;)
Not masculine at all, but just a woman trying to reach for a low note. Incredible!
Love,
Amy
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 14, 2013, 05:10:18 AM
Not masculine at all, but just a woman trying to reach for a low note. Incredible!
Love,
Amy
Me, too.
Barbie~~
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 14, 2013, 05:10:18 AM
As quite a few ladies from Korea have posted here and there in Jenny's thread, maybe one of them can put us in contact with Sinae or another singer patient of Dr. Kim's, so we can maybe find out more about the long-term effect of VFS on the singing voice.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_(group)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_(group)
Sinae is said to now work as a plain make-up artist after the debacle of the vocal group Lady in 2005.
Although the Wikipedia article cites several factors of the failure, their lack of singing skill was the most critical. They could not bring money to the entertainment companies.
Thus, no way to listen her voice again.
Barbie~~
Dear Barbie,
Quote from: barbie on December 14, 2013, 07:47:09 AM
Thus, no way to listen her voice again.
It needn't necessarily be
her. Southeast Asia is not exactly a world region where transsexualism is unheard of. Plus, compared to the average population, quite a slice of the transgender population is working in arts and entertainment. The thought that not a single one of these women would have utilized the services of a quality ENT surgeon 'round the corner specializing in just what she needs is patently absurd. Between 2004 and 2011, Dr. Kim has performed 173 VFSs. If 5% of that sample use their voice professionally, that's 8-9 people.
The real kashe is: How do you get in contact with one of them to get a realistic perspective on how the singing voice will behave post-surgery if you don't speak the language and thus can't even fully leverage Internet searches?
Amy
Sarah - I LMAOd when I read you will do a "manly voice" and then you tried. You do a much worse "guy imitation" than some of my female friends ;) - I guess that part of the voice really is now totally gone. No more boy imitations - but I doubt you would be sorry about that ;) - really, it sounds great. Still a bit weak, still a bit restricted or limited and 300-something as the upper limit is not great yet, but hey - its 1 short month post op. Just another month will make a huge difference already, I am sure. As I get it, you should be able to get the upper range and the strength back within a few weeks to months and then all will be great :) - Wow that video really made an impresison on me - the rainbow passage - it is nice but so artificial, but to get a video and just conversational talk, thats much more impressing me.
About the professional singer - is there something where she writes about having VFS at Yesons? And there certainly must be recordings of her singing as well, right?
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 14, 2013, 01:18:00 PM
The real kashe is: How do you get in contact with one of them to get a realistic perspective on how the singing voice will behave post-surgery if you don't speak the language and thus can't even fully leverage Internet searches?
Amy
Quote from: anjaq on December 14, 2013, 04:26:01 PM
About the professional singer - is there something where she writes about having VFS at Yesons? And there certainly must be recordings of her singing as well, right?
Amy and Anjaq,
A few youtube clips are available, but again their singing performance was not professional at all. Their singing was highly lip synced, and sensible fans hate it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVsJv8PWLfM
In addition to their poor performance, there were other factors too. Stereotype on transgender and their legal status as woman (some of them did not undergo SRS, meaning that they had to go for obligatory military service for men).
People here nearly forgot the group Lady or Sinae. There are many entertainment stars coming and going, but they disappear within a few months or 1 year. The cycle is very short here in S. Korea. Sinae is now just a plain transsexual person among several thousands living here in S. Korea.
S. Korea is located in northeast Asia, a conservative region under influence of Confucianism. Regarding the stereotype on transgender, one exception was Ha Ri Su, who pioneered her career as transsexual entertainer in the region. Many other M2F transgender people took her as their role model and tried to enter the main stream from the underground entertainment industries, unsuccessfully.
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=97043
There are many music videos of Ha Ri Su. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq8w7LXvmJU
Dr. Kim commented that Ha Ri Su did not get any voice therapy or surgery in his column posted in newspaper: http://health.chosun.com/healthyLife/column_view.jsp?idx=373&cidx=30 (in Korean, you may use Google translator in chrome).
barbie~~
Dear Barbie,
I didn't know you lived in South Korea, I'm sorry! And sorry also for the geographic misnomer – for me "Northeast Asia" pretty much only meant Siberia and Northeastern China. I didn't know the name was also applied with reference to Japan and Korea.
Quote from: barbie on December 15, 2013, 05:14:22 AM
A few youtube clips are available, but again their singing performance was not professional at all. Their singing was highly lip synced, and sensible fans hate it.
I think I made it abundantly clear in my previous postings that I'm not concerned with the professionalism of their singing. The only thing that I was concerned with was if certain pitches were stable.
Quote from: barbie on December 15, 2013, 05:14:22 AM
Dr. Kim commented that Ha Ri Su did not get any voice therapy or surgery in his column posted in newspaper: http://health.chosun.com/healthyLife/column_view.jsp?idx=373&cidx=30 (in Korean, you may use Google translator in chrome).
That's an interesting thing to know.
Regards,
Amy
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 15, 2013, 05:56:29 AM
Dear Barbie,
I didn't know you lived in South Korea, I'm sorry! And sorry also for the geographic misnomer – for me "Northeast Asia" pretty much only meant Siberia and Northeastern China. I didn't know the name was also applied with reference to Japan and Korea.
I am the same. Every time I visit Europe, I become busy studying the map there. Too many countries. South America is the same. I have never been to Africa and Southeast Asia.
And infrequently, mails from Europe to me go to North Korea or Japan ;)
barbie~~
Anja, let me clarify. I was talking about my speaking range cutting off around 300Hz. I can still go higher than that when I just try sweeping up or holding a higher note. It's just during normal conversation it'll cut out when I get into the higher pitches until I'm farther along in the recovery. I haven't done any measurements on my full range right now, and I kind of don't want to until I'm at least 2 months post-op, but I'll update on that front once I do decide to do it.
I just wanted to make sure people didn't think I had a range of 170Hz-300Hz now, which would be pretty bad :-)
Ah thank you for the clarification, Sarah. I really was thinking that the healing was not that far along and you got that limitation overall. Good to hear this is not so. I guess at 300-400 Hz womehwere you are hitting the point where there is that "break" that one has to work around or minimize with voice training a bit? I guess the healing will make it a lot easier to go over this then. Jenny even said that with her healing progess that point was basically almost gone :) - But definitely wait with experiments until 2 months ;) - no need to risk anything now :) - its so great already and there is from what we heard from the others great improvements and healing to come. I am happy for you :D :D
Hi Anja,
Quote from: anjaq on December 15, 2013, 02:51:09 PM
I guess at 300-400 Hz womehwere you are hitting the point where there is that "break" that one has to work around or minimize with voice training a bit? [...] Jenny even said that with her healing progess that point was basically almost gone :)
Since the vibrating mass of the vocal folds is smaller, they posses a different overtone spectrum, which should aid massively in traversing the break by reducing and leveling out the differences between the two registers. I believe the break won't be very much of an issue post-surgery.
Amy
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 15, 2013, 04:18:49 PM
I believe the break won't be very much of an issue post-surgery.
Yeah, thats what Jenny described.
I guess after the devastating reply fom Yesons I got, this is however now in the far far future for me if possible at all. :'( - :'( - -> https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,153931.msg1305990.html#msg1305990
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 14, 2013, 05:10:18 AM
Not masculine at all, but just a woman trying to reach for a low note. Incredible!
Totally agree ... in fact, that's the absolute proof of how great this surgery is. You can't sound like a guy, Sarah,
even when you try! That's got to be so empowering to you as a woman.
Quote from: anjaq on December 15, 2013, 08:29:28 PM
Yeah, thats what Jenny described.
I guess after the devastating reply fom Yesons I got, this is however now in the far far future for me if possible at all. :'( - :'( - -> https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,153931.msg1305990.html#msg1305990
Still sounds like it's possible, but will just require a few secondary efforts to correct other issues?
Either way, I'm sorry to hear about the response you got from them. Personally if I were you, I still wouldn't let it stop me ;)
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 16, 2013, 12:39:29 PM
Still sounds like it's possible, but will just require a few secondary efforts to correct other issues?
Well as i understand it, I first have to correct the other issues with voice therapy/rehab. In addition to that if I do the surgery I will again have to do a lot of voice rehab after that (with that amount of total rehab hours most people would probably tell me I would be able to get a great voice without surgery anyways). But the worst sentence was that the result may not be satisfactory as my conditions may prevent pitch increase. If they do warn me of that I think there is a fair chance of it happening and then basically the benefits from the surgery would be possibly not much. I saw that there is a percentage of people who come out of this with no better voice or increase in pitch and such a warning from them, I take it seriously. I am pretty stunned now. Also because they described 3 things of which only one was described by my voice doctor here and she more or less put it off as minor issue. Dr Kim describes all three of them more or less as the source of the more visible condition. I do have to write them again and tell them what I think caused this conditions - speaking in a more female voice for a long time. I think they still assume that I am not "transgender" as I did not introduce myself that way specifically and in the email Jessi asked if I was "transgender". I will have to clarify that while I am not "transgender" by self definition, she still will have to assume it. Or something like that. also I want to ask what they think can be done about the issue and what they consider a proper voice examination - I cannot make a trip to Seoul for a voice examination....
Yeah, Anja, if it were me I'd likely still opt for the surgery, as there really is no down side I can think of. The only down side they mentioned was potentially not getting the pitch increase you're looking for, however, that's the case no matter what anyways. If that's the only potential side effect then I see no reason you can't still opt for the surgery and hope for the best. As you can see, Dr. Kim does great work, and seeing as how he's a voice surgeon in general along with doing voice feminization surgery I can't think of anyone better to take that risk with.
Yeah, it's a lot of money to risk getting no change, or minimal change, but with the results I'm hearing from them it seems worth it to me. Anyways, it's up to you, but don't give up. Keep practicing your voice with the voice therapist and keep putting that money into savings and if you do decide to go for it then you'll be all set :)
Quote from: SarahR on December 16, 2013, 09:37:05 PM
Yeah, Anja, if it were me I'd likely still opt for the surgery, as there really is no down side I can think of. The only down side they mentioned was potentially not getting the pitch increase you're looking for, however, that's the case no matter what anyways.
Yeah well - it sounded like my risk of not getting that increase is quite higher than average. Additinally they said I need a longer recovery time and more post op voice training than usually, which means most likely that the voice would not be that great thus it needs more training to get up to sounding good - for me this reply kind of sounded the alarm that it may not be what I was hoping for for me. I tend to make bad decisions in surgeries, so I think it probably would be wise for me now to reconsider and maybe do another examination after doing some voice therapy for half a year or a year and see if the followup comes out better. As I said, I was hoping the surgery would help me with my voice but this assessment sounds more like it would be an additional burden, so I am frustrated now :'(
Quotedon't give up. Keep practicing your voice with the voice therapist and keep putting that money into savings and if you do decide to go for it then you'll be all set :)
I will...
Thank you...
Here's another video update. The quality of my voice is still returning after so much talking over the holidays, as well as recovering from a bad case of the flu. I'm noticing that my upper speaking range is really getting stronger and I no longer break at the higher speaking frequencies around 280-300Hz. I still have a couple of weeks in the initial recovery period, so I'm continuing to take it easy and not really test out my full range and power.
I got a little worried for a little bit since I had a couple days where I had some pretty bad, rough coughs and thought that I may have affected the voice. However, now that I'm almost all better from the flu I can definitely tell that my voice is getting back to where it was before, or likely better than it was since I'm farther along in the recovery. I did a recording of the rainbow passage today and it settled around 217Hz average, with it rarely going below 200Hz, so I think it's even slowly rising as I get closer to 2 months. That makes sense too, since that's what Dr. Kim said would happen anyways. I notice, though, that I tend to speak at a lower frequency, between 190-200Hz, in general conversation and only go above that when speaking to people I don't know.
It's been a little hard not to sing, and I have to actively stop myself a lot of times. I don't ever try to belt something out, but I notice that I sing a lot under my breath and I have to catch myself. I can tell that the upper range is still limited, as it's still hard to produce notes above 550Hz. I can get up there, but it takes effort and I can't yet try with any power as I don't want to take any chances with messing something up, so that's definitely playing a part. However, just the fact that I can get up to 600Hz right now after only talking for a couple of weeks kind of gives me hope that my range will return and hopefully be higher than what it was pre-op.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HrMTZiG9Hs
Looking and sounding great Sarah!
Yeah whenever I get sick, very paralleled emotions with the "OH GOD have I screwed it up permanently??"
But no, every time it does come back and strangely sometimes it feels stronger for some reason.
Oh my god, your "male" voice is even funnier than mine... I lol'd. These days I can get down to about 135hz at the lowest, but I can't really make enough noise to speak loud enough until 145hz. My topmost frequency (while doing vocal exercises) is now at an A5 880hz.
And I also parallel the pitch changing a lot with people I don't know vs people I do know. I think my voice is generally around the range of 190hz with people I do know, but can go up to 230hz with people I don't know. Every now and then I'll be curious and record myself using my cell phone. By the way, that pitch difference even happens over the phone.
Also, I tried singing the soprano part at the xmas eve church thing that my parents always make me go to... It actually worked out pretty well! I think I could definitely sing alto, and my chest/head voice break being at around G5 is right on the money. All of the carols we sang in the congregation were soprano part only, so for the high notes I would have to drop it down an octave. Overall though I was pretty happy with my singing range. I'm still a long way off from recording myself singing though, I'm sure it doesn't sound that good yet :P
Thanks for the update, seems like you are recovering wonderfully!
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 26, 2013, 05:17:56 PM
Looking and sounding great Sarah!
Yeah whenever I get sick, very paralleled emotions with the "OH GOD have I screwed it up permanently??"
But no, every time it does come back and strangely sometimes it feels stronger for some reason.
Oh my god, your "male" voice is even funnier than mine... I lol'd. These days I can get down to about 135hz at the lowest, but I can't really make enough noise to speak loud enough until 145hz. My topmost frequency (while doing vocal exercises) is now at an A5 880hz.
And I also parallel the pitch changing a lot with people I don't know vs people I do know. I think my voice is generally around the range of 190hz with people I do know, but can go up to 230hz with people I don't know. Every now and then I'll be curious and record myself using my cell phone. By the way, that pitch difference even happens over the phone.
Also, I tried singing the soprano part at the xmas eve church thing that my parents always make me go to... It actually worked out pretty well! I think I could definitely sing alto, and my chest/head voice break being at around G5 is right on the money. All of the carols we sang in the congregation were soprano part only, so for the high notes I would have to drop it down an octave. Overall though I was pretty happy with my singing range. I'm still a long way off from recording myself singing though, I'm sure it doesn't sound that good yet :P
Thanks for the update, seems like you are recovering wonderfully!
Thanks Jenny, I'm glad it still sounds good to others as well. Getting sick is definitely a stress-inducing thing being so early on in the recovery still.
Seriously, an A5 is your highest now? That's really good progress from where you started. I think I remember your highest being around a C5 or something pre-op, and it peaked at around an E5 for a good few months post-op, right? Pretty cool :)
I've definitely noticed that the lowest I can go is increasing along with the clarity at the higher notes. I just did a quick, really rough measurement and the lowest I can go seems to be around 140Hz now, as opposed to the 170Hz a couple of weeks ago when I first started talking. Although, both of those are nothing compared to the low of 100Hz pre-op, haha.
That's great to hear that your singing voice is coming along. I'm really curious about how that'll be once I do feel comfortable enough to try it again. I'm not sure if I'll ever be posting myself singing though, as I am not as musically-inclined as you seem to be, lol.
Yeah the A5 was a nice surprise a few days ago when I finally got over my cough! Funny to think that I was wondering if I would ever get up to an F5!
When I started vocal exercises, I was straining to hit Bb4. So that's one semitone short of an entire octave of improvement :)
If you are already hitting D5s, I'd say you likely have a LOT to look forward to in recovery!
The absolute lowest pitch I could make pre-op was around 70hz. I had a super low voice. So easy for me to forget that! I could have easily sang Bass, and now I can do Alto.
You are sounding great, Sarah. This really is amazing - and only what now 4 weeks post op? I could not even hear any parts of your video where the voice was breaking or weak anymore. And your low voice is sooooo funny. If that is the "best" you can do to make a male voice, you really made it - you cannot do a male voice anymore even if you try, that is great! If I ever get my voice fixed up well enough and still want to have VFS, I would like to show your progress videos to my voice people to show them I am not doing something stupid then ;)
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 26, 2013, 09:29:29 PM
If you are already hitting D5s, I'd say you likely have a LOT to look forward to in recovery!
Holy crap, I just tried doing some sweeps really gently to get an idea of the max I can go and it just kept going up and up. I can easily hit anywhere between 600-800Hz, and I even got above 1KHz at one point. Before the surgery I could get to 700Hz MAX, and that was by doing the tiniest little squeak imaginable, there was no way I could ever make it go higher than that. Now, I seem to be able to pass that up easily. Of course, none of that upper range is really usable yet. I don't want to try too hard, so I'm not putting much power into it, but so far it looks like you're right about what I may have to look forward to :) I can't wait now until 2 months when I can start the vocal exercises and really test out my vocal range.
Quote from: anjaq on December 27, 2013, 11:08:45 AM
You are sounding great, Sarah. This really is amazing - and only what now 4 weeks post op? I could not even hear any parts of your video where the voice was breaking or weak anymore. And your low voice is sooooo funny. If that is the "best" you can do to make a male voice, you really made it - you cannot do a male voice anymore even if you try, that is great! If I ever get my voice fixed up well enough and still want to have VFS, I would like to show your progress videos to my voice people to show them I am not doing something stupid then ;)
Thanks Anja! I'm actually coming up on 7 weeks post-op on Monday, so I'm getting close to being able to really start using my voice in all situations. That's not until January 11th though.
Haha, yeah, it's pretty silly when I try to get down to the lower frequencies again. It brings a lot of comfort knowing that even if I wanted to I couldn't easily talk in the male range.
Like I said Sarah, I've always thought you will have one of if not the best result from Yeson yet!
My vocal cords were rather large and bulky, even for a male. After surgery they are within a female length, but still probably a bit bulkier than average.
For you, likely having an average sized vocal cord length/thickness, I would imagine your high end pitch capability will far surpass mine!
So, if you are already sweeping smoothly up past 1khz, you shouldn't have any issues singing soprano :D
Me on the other hand, it's looking like I'm an Alto. Maybe we can sing a duet together someday ;)
Quote from: Jennygirl on December 27, 2013, 02:34:04 PM
Like I said Sarah, I've always thought you will have one of if not the best result from Yeson yet!
My vocal cords were rather large and bulky, even for a male. After surgery they are within a female length, but still probably a bit bulkier than average.
For you, likely having an average sized vocal cord length/thickness, I would imagine your high end pitch capability will far surpass mine!
So, if you are already sweeping smoothly up past 1khz, you shouldn't have any issues singing soprano :D
Me on the other hand, it's looking like I'm an Alto. Maybe we can sing a duet together someday ;)
Interestingly, Dr. Kim said that my vocal cords are actually shorter than normal during the first consultation, so I'm sure that has something to do with it. I'm not sure about the thickness, but I would assume they are not overly thick for their size either. It's interesting what you find out in the process of getting VFS.
I'm not sure how much of that top range will ever be usable, especially singing, since I've never been a singer by any stretch of the imagination and probably don't have the vocal control and ear to be able to hit the right notes and then hold them. However, it's fun to think that I may be able to at least hit the higher notes in passing.
And I'd totally be up for
trying a duet at some point, lol. I'm sure you can teach me a lot about singing and voice control. Technically, you already have with all your follow-up posts throughout your own recovery.
I imagine you will find the middle upper range very useful when you are trying to talk loudly or laughing, etc. And yeah now I seem to remember you saying that he had told you that yours were shorter.
Lucky duck! I would love to get back to my soprano days when I was 10 years old ;) But, everyone seems to love my voice as is and apparently it suits me extremely well. Sometimes it sounds a bit low to me (when talking to people that I've known for a long time) but I've been assured and reassured probably a hundred times that it sounds great and fully female in all scenarios.
Hi Jenny and Sarah,
I think it's time to say thank you to you both for the pioneering work you did in blazing a trail to the important resource Yeson is indeed turning out to be, and for sharing your vocal progress with us, as inspiration and encouragement.
It's crazy, I know mid-April is still a ways to go, but all these Korean resources are piling up on my desk already: a Seoul travel guide, a Korean cookbook (some delicious stuff, but some of it is devilishly hot, so to be avoided right after surgery), maps etc. I'm so looking forward to this! At the moment, I'm doing the backing tracks for my pre-surgery singing clips (the same song, in C for masculine voice, in F for the "low feminized version" and in G for the "elevated feminized version"). Plus recordings of my speaking voice. I really want to document this well, in order to create a frame of reference for future musician patients.
And I'm really happy that both of your voices are coming along so well. Jenny, I wouldn't worry at all about the pitch of your voice. It sounds 120% fine, fabulous and female :-) Actually, I'd find the low end of the female range quite an attractive spot to end up in.
So, enough said, time to get going and start my day!
Amy
Quote from: SarahR on December 27, 2013, 02:27:35 PM
Holy crap, I just tried doing some sweeps really gently to get an idea of the max I can go and it just kept going up and up. I can easily hit anywhere between 600-800Hz, and I even got above 1KHz at one point. Before the surgery I could get to 700Hz MAX
Wow, that is amazing considering a common saying is that vocal range decreases with surgery. Right now I can hit 760 Hz, anything above 800 or 900 is really hard to do for me, though in voice therapy one time she made me go up there :P - I cannot help but wonder what would happen if I would be as lucky as you - destroy glasses with singing LOL - Nah, I think not. My vocal chords are more like Jennys I guess - rather long and bulky, judging from my "original" F0 of 100 Hz. From what I got from Amys comments though, the upper range seems to depend a lot on skill or using some techniques, often unvoluntary?
QuoteThanks Anja! I'm actually coming up on 7 weeks post-op on Monday, so I'm getting close to being able to really start using my voice in all situations. That's not until January 11th though.
Oh ok, so roughly 4 weeks after you started speaking again - I think I may have mixed that up. Its 7 weeks already? Geez, feels like it was yesterday :)
QuoteHaha, yeah, it's pretty silly when I try to get down to the lower frequencies again. It brings a lot of comfort knowing that even if I wanted to I couldn't easily talk in the male range.
Totally! Did you notice any differences already with resonance control and such? I remember we talked about that - I know for myself I can go low in pitch to something like 120 Hz now and it does not really sound totally male, but I can somehow deliberately "drop" my voice below that and then I get to 100Hz but with a male resonance - very uncomfortable and scary. Are you doing something actively with resonance control now?
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 28, 2013, 02:11:06 AM
I think it's time to say thank you to you both for the pioneering work you did in blazing a trail to the important resource Yeson is indeed turning out to be, and for sharing your vocal progress with us, as inspiration and encouragement.
Indeed! - They both and Abby as well made me cry a couple of times - so it is safe to say you are an inspiration indeed :)
QuoteAt the moment, I'm doing the backing tracks for my pre-surgery singing clips (the same song, in C for masculine voice, in F for the "low feminized version" and in G for the "elevated feminized version"). Plus recordings of my speaking voice. I really want to document this well, in order to create a frame of reference for future musician patients.
Very neat - so we will get a real great frame of reference comparing before and after voices from you, that is soooo neat :)
QuoteActually, I'd find the low end of the female range quite an attractive spot to end up in.
Yeah, I think I would love that end as well - my voice therapist said that my preferred pitch when I am allowed to make any sound at will is apparently about 200 Hz though, so that is not quite the low end - apparently it is also the pitch at which my vocal chords loose much of their tremor and assymetry that Dr kim was concerned about in terms of preventing me from getting a good result with him if I would go. Weird, isn't it? Call me crazy but it feels like this is the pitch my brain expects from my body if it was not altered by testosterone poisoning (hehe: funny link (http://society6.com/capplum/Testosterone-Poisoning_T-shirt#11=50&4=75)).
Sadly however I did not get a reply to my last email to Yesons after they sent me that devastating letter last time. I replied and asked them a few things about how I can fix the voice issues I have, if the success rate would be better if I did manage to fix them, I also explained explicitely that I am having issues with transsexuality as they somehow assumed I am a women without transsexual background before (I did not write "hello I am a transgeder woman and looking for surgery" but just as I see myself as a woman with a low pitched voice). But sadly no reply at all for almost 2 weeks now :( .
Oh and I swear - if I get this link sent to me one more time by people I am talking about having voice issues in the german language groups I am participating in, I am going to scream: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf2k2W0RTJ0
They keep sending me this because there is this actress in Germany who has this immensely deep voice but still sounds female - as an example that pitch is not important and that I rather should work on other parts of my voice etc... I dont know, I think few people can pull off a voice like she does...and even much fewer transgender people.
Greetings
Anja
Hi Anja,
Quote from: anjaq on December 28, 2013, 06:36:16 AM
From what I got from Amys comments though, the upper range seems to depend a lot on skill or using some techniques, often unvoluntary?-
Yeah, the voice is like any old wind instrument in that regard: the bottom end is a matter of construction, the top end depends on the skills of the player/singer.
Quote from: anjaq on December 28, 2013, 06:36:16 AM
Sadly however I did not get a reply to my last email to Yesons after they sent me that devastating letter last time.
See my PM for a potential cultural reason for that. If we had discussed it here
before you sent it, I might have had a chance of warning you. Still, it's quite a harsh – and unjustified – measure on their part to just end the conversation entirely.
Quote from: anjaq on December 28, 2013, 06:36:16 AM
They keep sending me this because there is this actress in Germany who has this immensely deep voice but still sounds female - as an example that pitch is not important and that I rather should work on other parts of my voice etc... I dont know, I think few people can pull off a voice like she does...and even much fewer transgender people.
She can pull it off because all of her other gender cues are in line: all physical aspects, all presentation aspects, and speech patterns such as choice of words and melody. I wouldn't say resonance, as her resonance sounds mostly male to me, and I'd surely misgender her just hearing her voice read a neutral text. But considering that us trans ladies have at least some other physical aspects outside of the female norm, we have no chance at pulling off such a voice. Masculine gender cues are cumulative: you can get away with maybe one or two, but if there's any more, society will pigeonhole you as trans.
Love,
Amy
Quote from: AmyBerlin on December 28, 2013, 08:43:30 AM
See my PM for a potential cultural reason for that. If we had discussed it here before you sent it, I might have had a chance of warning you. Still, it's quite a harsh – and unjustified – measure on their part to just end the conversation entirely.
Yes. I guess if I ever want to go there, I will need to find some neat trick - maybe get my second name listed first on the passport and credit card or something. I dunno. Or I just screwed it up. :'( - Or they just forgot about me. Argh - i dunno. I feel like I just screwed it up, really...
QuoteShe can pull it off because all of her other gender cues are in line: all physical aspects, all presentation aspects, and speech patterns such as choice of words and melody.....But considering that us trans ladies have at least some other physical aspects outside of the female norm, we have no chance at pulling off such a voice. Masculine gender cues are cumulative: you can get away with maybe one or two, but if there's any more, society will pidgeonhole you as trans.
Yes - I think her voice shows that speech patterns make a big difference as well, not just resonance and pitch which both are not that female in the video. But even just listening to her, I dont misgender her. The visual clues are of course making it certain. Though admittedly she is not very feminine, so the voice matches her overall presentation as an old lady who enjoyed one or another whiskey and some smokes :P
Ciao
Amy, I think that's a good idea to do all those different recordings. I have a bunch of different recordings that I did pre-op and it's interesting to go through them and try to mimic them in my new range and see the difference. That's really when I'm like, "Whoa, things have definitely changed!" It's exciting that you'll be having the surgery soon too, since it'll be cool to see the perspective from someone else who knows the voice so well. April will be here before you know it.
Anja, technically it's really only been about 2 1/2 weeks since I began talking. I didn't talk at all really (only little phrases and sometimes short sentences here and there) until after 1 month post-op, around December 10th. Yeah, it's crazy that it's already been almost 7 weeks, but on the other hand for me it still feels like it's been a long time and will still be a long time until I fully regain my range and power. Each week it gets better, but I'm distinctly aware of my limited power right now whenever I am in a noisy area. I just can't get my voice to go above a certain dB, and I am certainly not trying to until I'm at least past the 2 month mark.
Sorry to hear that Yeson hasn't responded to your last email. It may just be the whole holiday season and everything, as they may be taking a long holiday or something. I would fully expect them to respond soon after the new year. If not then maybe your email got lost or sent to the spam folder or something.
As for resonance, I don't even notice having to control it that much. Maybe that's because I already have so many years of resonance control under my belt, or maybe it's because I don't have to try so hard anymore to get the right resonance to make the voice sound good.
I don't think about resonance at all, either.
Sometimes I still notice my voice gets tired... Like today my voice started to feel less dynamic (upward pitch movement being harder to reach) after all the nonstop talking I've been doing around loud relatives for extended periods of time. I get a little self conscious when that happens, and then I remind myself of how that used to happen even after the quiet conversations. I think there is a reason they say it's a 12 month recovery... It totally is.
Either way, I've been receiving nothing but compliments on my voice even though it is probably closer to the 185-190hz range around my relatives. Everyone seems to love it and is really proud of how well I am able to pass... My voice being a massive part of that!
Also, I've been doing a lot more singing... And it makes me so happy to sing the female parts now!!! I still have trouble reaching above C5 unless I'm by myself but I know it's just a confidence and practice thing. Either way, its really nice to not even be able to sing the low notes at all even if I try.
Wow, thank you to all the awesome women who have shared there VFS with Yeson experiences...it's truly inspirational and makes me want to save up and go for it myself!
Sarah, you look and sound terrific. :) I can't believe how much of a difference VFS can make. *jealous* jeje
and Jenny, I found your videos on youtube and just wanted to thank you for posting them. You are one of many ladies I look up to who have gone through transition and come out successful.
Thanks Azahara :) I agree, the effect of VFS can be very dramatic.
Thank you to all the ladies who've shared their experiences! I've been following this thread for the last 4 months since returning from Chonburi.
Sarah - thank you so much for all the wonderful & informative results you've shared - your results are amazing & your voice is so beautiful!
I've been working with my voice coach for the past 2 years on & off. I am comfortable with my voice, but I do quickly get tired maintaining the resonance & pitch that I really like to hear, but I am comfortable with the other elements of my voice/persona. I'm considering VFS for that & because I really miss singing. But I am concerned with the risks of VFS.
I wanted to ask for inputs regarding Dr. Thomas in Portland, Or for VFS - especially compared to Dr. Kim at Yeson. What caused you to select Yeson for VFS?
Thanks so much for any inputs & advice! This is my 1st post ;-))
Love & hugs,
Bobbi
Bobbi, I cannot speak for the women who have already been to Yeson and I've not yet done so myself. However, the statistical outcomes from Yeson are extremely high with very high satisfaction rates from the patients. And as we have all learned here from all these brave ladies posting samples, the quality has been amazing.
On the other hand, Dr. Thomas, who I also was looking at, uses an invasive procedure versus the Yeson endoscopic procedure, has a lower satisfaction rate than Yeson, and has some outcomes that are worse than when the patient began. That's not a lot but it is a worry. Yeson seems to never make things any worse than they were and almost always makes things better.
When looking at the two procedures, since, for me, mastering suppression of male resonance was pretty easy but pitch is much harder, Yeson makes more sense to me for all the above reasons.
As I understand it, Dr Thomas has a variety of options from just slightly tensioning the vocal chords to a fully invasive procedure. I dont know if he also offers glottoplasty like Dr Kim. From what I have heard of the über critical German people her ist that if they trust anyone to do a successful voice surgery, its Dr Thomas. Dr Kim is unknown here though. I personally think the reason for that is that Dr Thomas also attempts to change resonance to a degree. So if someone was totally unable to train herself to change resonance and pitch and basically has a 100% male voice, a surgery like Dr Kims or the other pitch raising surgeries will relaly only raise pitch but not resonance and then the voice may sound odd. People then call the surgery a failure and this is probably why VFS has such a bad name here. Pitch raising surgeries can only be a success IMO if the voice was a low but female sounding voice before surgery and then becomes a higher female sounding voice. Dr Thomas seems to have a more holistic approach and tries to reshape the whole larynx in a way that allows the patients to speak without the need for resonance or pitch control. If that works, the difference certainly is great and I guess the whole quality and sound of the voice changes. Sadly the invasiveness of the procedure seems to increase the risk of complications to a rather high level. I would say Dr Thomas is somone to consider if it really does not work at all with the voice, Dr Kim is someone to consider if the voice already is allright but can use improvement . Its a bit like botox and a nosejob versus a full FFS ;)
Quote from: LizMarie on January 09, 2014, 09:50:01 PM
Bobbi, I cannot speak for the women who have already been to Yeson and I've not yet done so myself. However, the statistical outcomes from Yeson are extremely high with very high satisfaction rates from the patients. And as we have all learned here from all these brave ladies posting samples, the quality has been amazing.
On the other hand, Dr. Thomas, who I also was looking at, uses an invasive procedure versus the Yeson endoscopic procedure, has a lower satisfaction rate than Yeson, and has some outcomes that are worse than when the patient began. That's not a lot but it is a worry. Yeson seems to never make things any worse than they were and almost always makes things better.
When looking at the two procedures, since, for me, mastering suppression of male resonance was pretty easy but pitch is much harder, Yeson makes more sense to me for all the above reasons.
Thanks Bobbi, I appreciate that. I think Liz outlined it here pretty perfectly in why *I* chose Yeson versus any other voice surgeon. I would think it's similar for most others too. The amount of successful results coming out of Yeson, the natural sound of their voices, and the relative invasiveness of the procedure made it a no-brainier for me. Being almost 2 months post-op now, it's changed my life. I no longer think about my voice at all anymore, and I haven't even started vocal excercises yet, which should increase my range and power much more.
I never considered VFS at all before seeing Jenny's result on YouTube. After that, as well as getting as much info about Yeson and the procedure, I was sold. For me, Dr. Thomas' procedure was too invasive and the satisfaction rate and quality of the voices didn't come close to Yeson.
I hope that help :-)
Being that I'm around the 2 month post-op mark now I thought I'd do another video. My voice is definitely waaaaay stronger than before. I have no trouble speaking at all, even for longer durations. I haven't yet started vocal exercises, nor have I really tried testing my range at louder volumes. I'll be progressing into those in the coming days and weeks. I also haven't really tried singing yet, just really low, short clips. I'm not going to push that until probably another month or two, once I've been doing the vocal exercises for a while.
I really love the results from this procedure. I have no worries anymore about my voice. I used to have so much apprehension pretty much every day whenever I had to talk, meet new people, etc. and that's all gone now. It feels great to be so comfortable with myself now and not have any worries anymore. This would have seriously been the first thing I got done when I first started transition if it was around and I knew about it back then. It just takes so much weight off of me knowing that I don't have to try so hard to sound female anymore, I no longer get a sore throat from trying to raise my pitch all day, I no longer have to think before I talk, etc.
But anyways, here's the video. Let me know what you think :)
http://youtu.be/NN9Qo2z-Sw0
That's fantastic, Sarah!
Hey - really rally great. And it does not sound as if you have a super low volume still or anything. The male voice thing is funny - this time you forced resonance, I think you did not do that last time so you actually do manage to make it sound a bit androgynous. I know that feeling - after many years of talking with the changed resonance it becomes really hard to do that sort of resonance again - it is not something that would happen by accident anyways but good to know that even if it would, it does at least in your case not sound male. If I would do that now - horrible ;) - But I never do. So pretty cool about the Yeson interview, you will also be on the yeson channel then with a pre/post op comparison?
LizMarie, Anja, Sarah - thanks so much for the insights.
Sarah - WOW! Just love your voice & your laugh! Simply amazing - so feminine. Thank you for giving us continuous feedback & results!
Jenny - your videos are amazing - so feminine & so inspiring!
Yes - the non-invasive Yeson procedure is way more appealing to me. I had planned Yeson at first (based on Sarah & Jenny), but my speech therapist recommended that I check with Dr. Thomas due to the voice box resonance work.
But even Dr. Thomas' site states the result of the voice box raising is subtle:
"Benefits and thoughts
I have performed several cases with this as the only procedure. To be successful there needs to be a gap between the thyroid cartilage and the hyoid bone. In some genetic males the voice box is quite low in the neck and can be raised quite a bit. In others the voice box abuts the hyoid bone and I really must remove some of the thyroid cartilage to create a gap for raising the voice box. Mostly I have performed this procedure simultaneously, in conjunction with a feminization laryngoplasty.
I believe the change with this procedure is more subtle than other procedures. There is less risk with this procedure than the other procedures I perform. It does provide a change in the vocal quality not performed by other procedures."
His own site is full of really appalling voice samples, none of which sounded better - several much worse. And he states a rather high, IMHO, revision rate at an additional $3,500 cost.
My current voice is passing at a high rate in person (a big deal - maybe not so much on the phone, that's where I use "Roberta" to help), but I get tired of maintaining my pitch & resonance simultaneously. And it's almost impossible to maintain my voice if I want to sing - I really miss singing. I feel that a pitch improvement would allow me to focus on resonance control & improve my voice overall. And I am a BIG proponent of the Yeson being non-invasive! Especially since I've already had a tracheal shave with almost invisible scar. Dr. Thomas's also states that he performs the voice box raising surgery separately.
So my preference is still for the Yeson surgery. I've used Pratt (thanks to Jenny & Sarah!) to record voice samples & a 75hz improvement would work really well for me. I plan to continue with my voice therapist to improve my resonance.
I have a phone consultation with Dr. Thomas this coming Wednesday - I'll report on that.
Thank you to everyone for your insights & thoughts! And to Sarah & Jenny for your real-world data collection that has been an invaluable resource!
Love & hugs,
Bobbi
Sounds you are doing quite a good research there yourself, Bobbi, I also listened to some of the samples at Dr Thomas site and he seems to be not that good in promoting himself as I found them not convincing really. However I have spoken to some people here who in turn are in direct contact with Thomas patients and they all reported very good results, so the recordings in the web may not be representative. A freind of mine suggested I contact Dr Thomas as well and I guess I will do that and send him my recordings, videos of the vocal chords and frequency analysis to see what he has to say about my voice issue - if he confirms the diagnosis of Dr Kim and if he would be more optimistic about VFS working on me. But i will wait for the updated endoscopic video recording to get more data. The resonance issue is really a nig plus with Thomas - interesting that he can do it as a standalone procedure in some cases (though not in all it seems), may be worth to keep in mind if people have serious resonance issues that would make a result from Dr Kim less appealing unless resonance is fixed as well...
Dear Sarah,
congratulations on the development of your voice. It sounds great indeed. And thanks for the thumbs-up for my (and Saskia's) surgery in April! <3 <3 <3
And your attempt at doing a low voice really supports my conjecture that resonance modification becomes less and less important if the pitch problem is taken care of, as male resonance becomes unmaintainable at higher pitches anyway. Thus it is unnecessary to modify resonance as long as the vibrating weight and/or length of the vocal folds is decreased. Apart from the consistency of their great results, this is the main reason for me to favor Yeson's procedure over any other.
Since it's incredibly hard and abstract to describe my voice in words, I've prepared a little diagram that's supposed to show how my voice feels to me (with 2 decades of resonance modification under my belt, but – as of yet – without VFS). This also explains how the region of male resonance becomes increasingly hard to access as the surgery modifies the vocal cords in such a way that they cannot vibrate at high volume at lower pitches anymore.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ameliezapf.com%2Ftmp%2Fs_voice_diagram.jpg&hash=98003a7bd0861ba8883b78b1cbb6e5e3966bcbe2)
You can see that without resonance feminization, the male resonance area and falsetto pretty much exist independently of each other, with significant discrepancies in sound quality. Going from one to the other causes a noticeable break.
With resonance feminized, what used to be the falsetto becomes the new speaking voice, but is extended downward and through resonance modification is given greater power and clarity and less breathiness, and so comes closer to the old male register, which is unused altogether. Volume and clarity are hard to maintain at pitches around where the break used to be (my voice sound quality noticeably suffers in that pitch region). The top minor 6th of the range, however, is crystal clear with lots of volume and control.
The pitch boundaries I highlighted reflect my personal voice. They could be different for other people.
I hope this makes sense to you, as it is quite an abstract visualization. And I'm so curious to find out how this diagram will change after surgery!
Greetings,
Amy
Amy. Thanks so much for the diagrams. They totally make sense to me. This is exactly how I feel it too! Especially now that I have explored the voice a bit more recently with voice rehab. Before Iw as not so much aware of it and I had those two low registers in the right picture, but still a break towards the top, that I now can "bypass" as you described it there. I am not sure about the quality of the upper range - but I think you are right, it is clearer, though I lack a bit of control over it. The volume of my "male range" was never really high however, so I would not put that parameter in ther for myself, but clearly it increases in the upper range now - I noticed this by consiously looking at it at a party before Christmas - there was a lot of noise, I was not heard well by others when talking at a table and by increasing pitch I could be heard again. It also strained my voice of course, but it was the only way to really get volume or audibility up without using that male register.
My pitch ranges are different though ;) - but the general scheme is very much the same.
I will be looking forward to an update post-op :) - the "male register" should probably move and be cut off at the bottom. It probably changes in resonance quality. So I am not sure what this would mean in the diagram though - I guess it would gain more overtones in relation? Curious what will happen to the break and the lower range of the female register.
What I still am very curious about is how the visible shift in that diagram between male and female low register will play out. You can see how with a female resonance, pitch goes up a bit (ok, just the lowest pitch range in the diagram - you did not put in the F0 there). If the pitch increase by Dr Kim is 75 Hz, which F0 and pitch range will it affect? Will both low boundaries go up by 75 Hz? Both F0s? Will it just cut off the lower end of the male resonance field and just a bit on the female resonance bit so that they will be equal at the botton? Will the male and female resonance fields start to overlap or melt together so that it does not matter anymore? :)
Its great to have someone here who can express vocal qualities so well, Amy - Thanks :* :)
Hi all
I'm new to this forum, and the more I read about Dr Kim's procedure the more I feel confident to move on and have my VFS done at Yeson. I'm 24 years old and have been perfecting my feminine image for years but my appearence can only take me so far and I feel kinda frustrated for not being able to pass because of my voice. Unfortunately I don't earn much to have my VFS done soon, and neither do I have time, but I'm seriously considering taking a loan or sell a property and solve this issue (as a public employee it isn't difficult to get it), and even so getting VFS in South Korea will mean an additional time to wait for my SRS. I've spent my money with FFS but had I know about Dr Kim I would choose VFS over FFS back in dec. 2012. I've never travelled abroad so making a trip to the other side of the world, knowing my english is still poor, to undergo a surgery feels to me like a kind of an adventure. I'm scheduled to have my annual leave in march but it will be only 15 days, which is too little to let my voice rest. I work at a post office in the reception, so you may see I have to talk all the time. Really things are a bit difficult but I'm not willing to wait months to get it done.
Hi, Sabrina.
It may be a bit fast to go this March already. You will have to check if there is a chance to book this that fast. You can just email them. 15 days is not enough though, so I guess you should see ich you can get something like a months leave if that is possible in your position at all? Where are you from, somewhere in Europe as you have not english as a native language but you still have to pay for all the procedures, that excludes a number of countries (well unless you chose to not use the local insurance covered options for SRS).
Also, my impression is that it totally makes sense to bring a friend with you, who ideally is at least quite ok in english, so you do not have to communicate solely via the touchpad screen. I think all the ladies who have don this procedure up to now and have reported about it went with a friend. I think it makes sense not to go alone!
@Anja
I'm from Brazil, and I have absolutely no one who I can count as a friend (besides my dad), forget about an english speaking friend willing to help me in this journey. I live in a small town and don't have personal contact with transwomen who are transitioning like me. Well the maximum leave is 30-34 continuous days but it will fall in the year end, but I can extend this time only if I arrange a fake medical leave but that is too risky. and I don't wanna lose my job either. The public health system here covers srs but I'll not be taking this risk either, I'm on my way to Thailand but it will take a bit longer.
Hi, Sabrina.
I would suggest then that you take the time to get that 34 days leave. you probably can easily get an official sick leave from a nose and throat doctor in Brasil if you had that surgery done as he could confirm that your throat needs healing. Usually he does not have to write a diagnosis for your employer, just that you need that leave. Otherwise you are risking your voice improvement if you can only keep the 15 days that are needed to heal. Maybe you can arrange to have a different job within the company for a few weeks? Do they know you are transitioning at the job, and are they supportive?
Dont you know anyone who can speak english and is your friend? It does not have to be a transitioning woman with TS but any friend or your dad if they are supportive of your plans. Otherwise it will be really hard if something goes wrong and you cannot talk at all, you may be tempted to talk anyways and then again risk the success. I am sure Jenny an dAbby will tell you that this is really critical. So by all means take the patience and try to get that longer leave and someone to accompany you.
What i am doing now is to tell everyone at work that i have voice issues, that something is wrong and needs to be fixed, that I am doing voice rehab right now. if I then tell them that rehab was not working enough and I need a surgery to correct my distorted vocal chords, i am sure I can easily get enough days off and probably even an official sick leave. Maybe that is an option?
I totally understand wanting to go to Thailand for SRS. I used the insurance option back then and was lucky with it in some ways and suffered from it in others. At present, i would not recommend anyone in my country to do any major surgery that involves TS within the country even if that means that one will have to pay money if going out of the country and it would basically be free within the country.
Thank you Anja for the insights, well maybe I'll have to wait further. Yes they do know I'm transitioning but they don't support it, even my family don't favour that I undergo any surgery even though they ore ok with me living as a woman. Friends, I have none as I said. Well but I'll do this anyway. Changing my job for a while in my workplace is indeed a great idea, I'll contact jessie again to know when I can book this surgery, my leave is in march but I can negotiate it to set it in another date, if I put it closer to a holiday, say.. the holy week, it can be effectively 20 days out of work, plus a medical leave and then returning to work in another job, up until the 2 months required to heal my voice. If for anything it turns to be unfeasible, I definitely set my VSF in the year-end. The trouble with this option is that tickets fares will more than double until there, even if I buy it now, thanks to the upcoming world cup.
What matters afterall is that I have finally decided what I want, and now it's just a matter of time. I was considering seriously to have my voice surgery done in Thailand with Dr Kunachack, he is highly regarded among transwomen here but I heard one patient of him that turned me away definitely. Now we have Dr Kim who I believe is pioneering a true revolution within the VFS field, and I'll go for it.
Good to hear my advice was helpful, I am sure one of the women here that went to Dr Kim can tell you more than me who has just followed all the topics about it but not yet even decided to do anything ;) - So you are working while appearing in your real gender, but they do not support it? Do they allow you to dress as you want and to use a name plate with your new name on it? I guess if they are critical about it, they will possibly make it harder, but I guess still it would really be recommended that you try to get the maximum days possible for recovery. If they can temporarily reassign you to something in the backoffice without the need to talk more than a few words, I guess you can do with the 20 days leave, but make sure to ask Jenny, Abby or Sarah about this. I have not heard of this surgeon in Thailand - what does he do? Also suturing the vocal chords or does he do some of the other methods? Anyways, good that you made your decision - it always feels good to make a decision. And dont worry too much about the ticket prices - if they are more expensive but it is the only way for you to get a proper downtime from the job to allow you to heal, its totally worth it. I kind of really get the impression that in all cases I heard up to now where the outcome was favourable, it was because enough time was given to heal and proper no-speaking rules were followed. So I think it is crucial, really. The ones that I heard that did not follow this, were smoking or talking too early, they seem to have more issues with the healing in the long run.
Hence also my suggestion to really try to get someone to come with you so you dont get in a situation where you are tempted or required to speak during your stay there. Maybe you can find someone in this forum who goes at the same time and brings a friend and you could team up. It seems there is quite a rush towards Yesons nowadays and people just flock there. I am already a bit worried about him going up significantly in price in the next year or two once this takes hold...;)
Hi Anja, I wish you the best wishes for determining your best VFS option. I also have a friend I met in Chonburi that had a remarkably nice voice - she went to Dr. Thomas 9 months before I met her. So I think rR. Thomas may focus on results & may not expend too much energy on having better/more representative voice samples. And all the samples were from 2012 & back - I believe he has performed many more surgeries in 2013.
I have my phone consultation with Dr. Thomas at 8am this Wed. - which is co cost (he charges $550 for a office consultation because he does a lot of testing & analysis.) I still really like the non-invasiveness of Dr. Kim, especially since I've already had a tracy shave. i'll report on how it goes.
Hi Amy - great diagram & your discussion is quite illuminating! Especially the observation regarding the primary importance of pitch.
Anja - your observation on increasing your pitch to be heard better with improved clarity is right on! I find myself doing this - I consciously launch at a higher pitch & resonance to communicate more clearly in noisy environment, by giving myself a little more squeeze. I do like my voice better when I do this, but it is tiring for long periods, so I am judicious in using this. I try to combine it with closer conversations. Because of this capability to control both pitch & resonance simultaneously for good results, I am preferring Dr. Kim's down-the-throat surgery. And I understand the importance of taking someone with me to Korea.
Hi Sabrina, I wish you all the best to be yourself!
Love & hugs - Bobbi
Yes my chief indeed told me once that he doesn't see me as a woman, but to be honest, I couldn't care less. And I do use my chosen name at work because all transgendered public servers here are entitled to it, it's granted by federal law. As for my dress yes it's a standard woman's outfit all women are required to wear on the job. As for Kunachack, he performs VFS in Bangkok (you can read about his technique here http://www.voice-surgery.com/voice.php?subaction=showfull&id=1067359885&archive=&start_from=&ucat=2& (http://www.voice-surgery.com/voice.php?subaction=showfull&id=1067359885&archive=&start_from=&ucat=2&)), a friend of mine on facebook told me he charges U$10.000, which is about the same as Dr Thomas in Portland I guess and more expensive than Dr Kim. I was thinking exactly the same thing as you, his prices may eventually go sky high as his fame builds up, the same as happened with Dr. Suporn.
Hi Sabrina, go with strength & courage:
Be Courageous Be STRONG
Keep Your Heart OPEN
There is Pain There is BEAUTY
Everything You Need is Within You Always
FIGHT ON
Love & hugs - Bobbi
Quote from: Sabrina.R on January 12, 2014, 01:54:59 PM
Yes my chief indeed told me once that he doesn't see me as a woman, but to be honest, I couldn't care less. And I do use my chosen name at work because all transgendered public servers here are entitled to it, it's granted by federal law. As for my dress yes it's a standard woman's outfit all women are required to wear on the job. As for Kunachack, he performs VFS in Bangkok (you can read about his technique here http://www.voice-surgery.com/voice.php?subaction=showfull&id=1067359885&archive=&start_from=&ucat=2& (http://www.voice-surgery.com/voice.php?subaction=showfull&id=1067359885&archive=&start_from=&ucat=2&)), a friend of mine on facebook told me he charges U$10.000, which is about the same as Dr Thomas in Portland I guess and more expensive than Dr Kim. I was thinking exactly the same thing as you, his prices may eventually go sky high as his fame builds up, the same as happened with Dr. Suporn.
That sounds pretty invasive, it sounds like he severs the vocal cords? I could be wrong though, it's hard to read that medical-speak!
I'm always interested to hear voice samples of these other doctor's work.
Hi Anja,
thanks for your well thought-out reply.
Quote from: anjaq on January 11, 2014, 06:54:02 AM
there was a lot of noise, I was not heard well by others when talking at a table and by increasing pitch I could be heard again.
This is another female voice mannerism: in order to cut through, women use pitch, not volume.
Quote from: anjaq on January 11, 2014, 06:54:02 AM
I will be looking forward to an update post-op :) - the "male register" should probably move and be cut off at the bottom.
I assume it won't move, but will decrease in size at the bottom: since the new bottom will be at a pitch where female resonance still exists, and given that low notes will tend to be soft, and that female resonance generally is softer than male resonance, the voice will automagically select female resonance at the very bottom, as demonstrated by Sarah's "male imitation" speaking clips. If there's a remainder of male resonance at all, it will be toward the top end of the old male resonance area.
Quote from: anjaq on January 11, 2014, 06:54:02 AM
What I still am very curious about is how the visible shift in that diagram between male and female low register will play out. You can see how with a female resonance, pitch goes up a bit (ok, just the lowest pitch range in the diagram - you did not put in the F0 there). If the pitch increase by Dr Kim is 75 Hz, which F0 and pitch range will it affect? Will both low boundaries go up by 75 Hz? Both F0s? Will it just cut off the lower end of the male resonance field and just a bit on the female resonance bit so that they will be equal at the botton? Will the male and female resonance fields start to overlap or melt together so that it does not matter anymore? :)
The female resonance lower limit I've displayed is an arbitrary one that I chose. Physically, I can produce female resonance as low as B2, or 123 Hz, which is less than 75 Hz above my lowest note. Here's what I expect: the lower limit will move up by ~75 Hz altogether. Since the lower limit doesn't have full volume, the voice box will opt for female resonance at the very bottom. A bit higher, you should be able to produce both male and female resonance. The upper limit of male resonance should move up a tad (in my case, from 415 Hz to maybe the 500-525 Hz ballpark, which will sound powerful, but not male anymore, since chest voice in that range is impossible with the male voice box). And the uppermost part will be by and large unchanged, maybe with a few notes added on top, and with more clarity and navigability.
Regarding F0s, everybody's natural F0 seems to be their lowest frequency attainable, multiplied by 1.4-1.7. Our female F0 is an arbitrary choice, so it doesn't figure. The natural (male) F0 will shift with the surgery to form the new, female, F0. Choice of resonance is independent of pitch, so we don't have to worry whether this'll be in male or female resonance. If it does end up in male resonance by default, we just need to relax our jaws to get into female res. It's that easy.
Regards,
Amy
Dear Jenny,
Quote from: Jennygirl on January 12, 2014, 02:16:37 PM
That sounds pretty invasive, it sounds like he severs the vocal cords? I could be wrong though, it's hard to read that medical-speak!
I get the same impression. Reading this description, I'd well leave this particular procedure alone.
And regarding my previous posting: Jenny, I think you mentioned that using male resonance ("belting") was possible in ranges above the pre-surgical "belting limit" after surgery, is that so?
Regards,
Amy
It was nice skyping with you Amy :) Hope I answered your questions!
Hi Jenny,
Quote from: Jennygirl on January 12, 2014, 03:36:57 PM
It was nice skyping with you Amy :) Hope I answered your questions!
The pleasure was all mine :-) You sure did!
Talk to you soon,
Amy
Hi Jenny,
Thanks again for all your work on sharing your VFS results - I am so very grateful for your kindness. Your voice is so beautifully feminine.
Now I just have a scheduling decision with Dr. Kim.
Love & hugs - Bobbi
Sabrina - that doctor in Thailand seems to try to do the same as Dr Thomas and it sounds very invasive indeed, as Jenny said. I would be careful there.
If the law protects your transgender status so well in terms of employment, does nit not also protect you in terms of needing surgery and the need to take medical leave for that?
Bobbi - yes, I will be interested to explore the opter options, but my gut feeling draws me to Dr Kim - IF I can fix my voice issues that are preventing him from giving me a full OK.
Amy
QuoteThis is another female voice mannerism: in order to cut through, women use pitch, not volume.
Hehe, yes. I guess I am doing that as it works. I cannot increase volume by going lower as some people seem to try - I am heard even less then unless I guess if i would switch to the male register.
QuoteRegarding F0s, everybody's natural F0 seems to be their lowest frequency attainable, multiplied by 1.4-1.7. Our female F0 is an arbitrary choice, so it doesn't figure. The natural (male) F0 will shift with the surgery to form the new, female, F0.
Ok, yes that makes some sense, I guess. Though I feel somehow that if I go to the female register and relax, the F0 is not the same as if I go to male register and relax. The difference is about 20-30 Hz. If I take the male F0 as a starting point and add 75 Hz to that. I will not get into the clearly female range, as Dr Kim predicted in the assessment. I would be at around 175 Hz then, maybe 180 Hz. Which would however be fine with me as I can possibly add the 20 Hz or so by just slightly modifying my voice then as I am used to do it anyways.
I hope...
I was skyping today with someone who was in Berlin for the VFS there. I really love skyping as this really gives so much of a better impression on the voice and one can talk much more directly than by writing. She sounded quite ok, female no doubt really, but she was having some very noticeable hoarseness to the voice. For her that was acceptable, the main goal was not to be called "sir" on the phone or in situations where voice is the main gender identificator. So she is happy that she has done it. Apparently if you go to Berlin, you have to sign a waiver that states hoarseness might happen. Honestly even though she was ok with it the outcome did not increase my confidence in the people in Berlin doing nearly as good work as Dr Kim. However as it seems there is a consistency I noticed: As some others who had issues with the VFS with glottoplasty - in Berlin but i think also with Dr Kim, if I remember this correctly - it seems that all of those who had these issues were not able to keep the instructions or did not even get these instructions. Fully speaking after less than 2 weeks, whispering, smoking,... these seem to be big influences on the outcome. I am not even sure about coughing or sneezing but to actually talk and whisper a lot in that time seems to make the outcome hoarse or not pitch elevated. This also was the case for two more people I contacted and who did glottoplasty in Germany. So the woman I talked to yesterdayfor example had to speak before the end of week 2, she has family that needed speaking and within the first 2 months she had to talk very loudly at her job. Unlike me, she used a lower pitch to get over the noise, which would train the reshaped vocal chords to a low pitch I would fear... Also what she told me was that she lost a lot of strength and cannot scream anymore. But she was only 3 months post op as of now, so I would not even want to try screaming at this point and am not surprised that at this stage there is still a loss in volume. I hope she will heal more with time... but I was definitely leaning more towards going to Dr Kim after our talk, even if that means $7000 more money to be spent ;)
The other people I contacted also either started talking within the first 2 weeks or was a smoker and could not resist smoking just a day or two after surgery.
So I think it cannot be said enough that keeping to the instructions that Dr Kim gives are crucial ... not doing so may prolong the healing process or cause issues like hoarseness.
I have not yet met anyone from Germany who has managed to really keep to the instructions and some did not get instructions or did not take them seriously. Maybe this is the main cause why there is a bad reputation for VFS in Germany - I cannot exclude that a lot of the bad results are from not following the safety protocols, but I would think there would have to be at least some who managed to keep to the rules and get a good result - as this is not the case, I am doubtful about VFS in any place except Yeson or Dr Thomas.
Greetings
US law and health care? Please don't get me started on the disaster that is US health care. :P
My latest voice update...
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Ck1gDJJTZD
Your comments are welcome (and you may like to compare my voice with my previous vocaroo post back in november 2013)
Hi, Kiwi4ever
I think the voice sounds quite good, but I can tell what you mean by hoarseness or breathiness, especially towards the end of the recording. I get the impression that VFS with this method actually is very good at getting the voice in the female range of perception, the risk more being said hoarseness in case something has not healed properly (yet?). I am sorry about you getting into that situation that did not allow you to keep your rest :( - I hope things will work out even better but as you are happy as of now, thats already good. Did they at Yesons tell you not to do the exercises as of yet but rather rest? Did I get that right?
Thanks for writing back to me and posting this clip in the forums :)
Ciao
It's been a little over 2 months since the surgery now, so I did the reading of the Rainbow Passage and the interview and sent them to Jessie. I'm not sure when they'll get them posted up on YouTube so I've embedded the ones I uploaded to my account here.
I'm curious to hear the difference between the recording of the rainbow passage they did pre-op and the one after 2 months. I went back and listened to my own recordings and it's such a drastic change! I've pasted a link to my full set of pre-op and post-op audio recordings I've done so far. They're in chronological order starting with my 3 pre-op recordings using a low, mid, and high voice, and then the rest are the recordings I did throughout the first month or so of recovery. From that point on I started doing videos instead, so there aren't any more audio-only recordings in that set.
Yeson Playlist on SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/theartoflogic/sets/yeson/s-ey1Lo
Rainbow Passage:
http://youtu.be/QJ2iJQr_Jz4
Interview:
http://youtu.be/keu159LTnPc
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on January 12, 2014, 10:20:31 PM
My latest voice update...
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Ck1gDJJTZD
Your comments are welcome (and you may like to compare my voice with my previous vocaroo post back in november 2013)
Kiwi, I think your voice sounds really good. I think the ultimate confirmation on whether the surgery was successful is 1) are you comfortable with your voice now, and 2) what type of reactions do you get from those who hear your new voice, and in both of those cases it sounds like things are positive. I'm happy to hear it's working out for you, I really am.
The two videos.... soooo great. I am soooo envious. I mean, the only thing still noticeable, and that is just 2 months into healing, wsa that the voice gave out like 2 or 3 times slightly. But the sound and quality and clarity - its soo perfect. I think I need to run and do some voice exercises to get a better voice status next month that tells me I am improving. If I may, I will want to show that video to my voice people here to un-scare them from my idea to go to Yesons..? It will be public on Yesons channel anyways, right?
So seriously, I think this is the perfect outcome. I guess in 3-4 months it will be fine enough to really use the voice for anything you will want and then also the Botox will be gone Ig uess, which probably will make your voice louder, though as I understand it, it may lower pitch slightly? Would not matter anyways - there seems to be that compensating pitch increase with time that Jenny&Abby reported to well on before.
So happy for you <3
Dear Sarah,
all I can say is: congratulations to your great result! Thanks for sharing it with us in your videos. You're making it real hard for me to wait those 3 more months to have the surgery as well :-)
Thanks,
Amy
Quote from: AmyBerlin on January 17, 2014, 02:54:10 PM
You're making it real hard for me to wait those 3 more months to have the surgery as well :-)
Hey - 3 months are nothing. If I could plan for it, it would be at least a year...
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on January 12, 2014, 10:20:31 PM
My latest voice update...
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Ck1gDJJTZD
Your comments are welcome (and you may like to compare my voice with my previous vocaroo post back in november 2013)
I think you voice and inflection is lovely, sweetheart, and I miss you very much. It does sound a bit hoarse, but if your healing follows that of the other girls here, the result should be spectacular. :)
I apologize for any of the pain you may have felt for the comments of some here. I wish I had been able to help. :-\
Another video update! Enjoy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU8xK4ARI28
Congratulations, Sarah! You're sounding great, and you keep sounding better every time :-)
Amy
I am so happy for you, Sarah, and you sound awesome!
Cool - really awesome - especially the part on feeing bad in a situation to better not talk and then it just works fine. Totally cool. I know these situations but am of course always a bit struggling with it. I am trying to get used to my lower voice for the time being ba working mor eon the tone and sound of it with voice rehab but also intentionally not going up in pitch as this causes hypertension again. I feel a bit awkward with the lowered pitch but I guess it makes it abundantly clear that I also have to work on some issues still especially prosody because ideally even the lower voice should sound female before going up in pitch. Ah well. Are you still feeling a bit sore from the surgery at this point? Its only been 10 weeks, right? So do you have to clear your throat or speak less loudly after you have been talking for a while?
Hi to everyone!
I'm new here and sorry to say I have been lurking for a little while trying to learn what I could. I've been in contact with Jessie at Yeson and am considering making an appointment for early May. I did have a few questions and hope that someone out there can help me.
I'm 48 and over the past 6-7 years I've been through countless hours of voice training. My original pitch was about 100 mhz and my trained pitch is about 200 mhz. I'm unable to get back to my original pitch but it does go as low as 160 mhz if I'm sick, had too much to drink the night before or if I've been talking loudly for extended period like in a club or noisy venue.
While I'm not technically stealth, staying in gender role is very importaint to me and the few times I do get read (or tink I do) it's like someone took away my air and I'm just wanting to do whatever it takes to be invisible. Most of my friends tell me I don't need it but there are times when my mother has told me that my voice deepened or when I feel like it has deepened which makes me uncomfortable.
That's what brings up the question. Has anyone had the surgery after successfully raising the pitch of their voice? I'm worried that the pitch will go too high and be inappropriate. Would I need to unlearn everything so my voice is always at a lower register? Any thoughts?
Thanks! I really appreciate all the info that has been posted here. It's been incredibly helpful.
Lisa
Thats a great question Lisa. I think Sarah is probably the best to answer as she did have some pitch raising before. Other than that, Amy will go in April IIRC and she has done pitch raising before as well. I feel you may be a bit similar to me as I also have a original of 100 Hz but I cannot et to 200 Hz usually. It is more like the 160 or even 140 mark. But I am also interested how voice patterns that are learned and trained over years (in my case 15) are affected. As i understand it the best case is that it just is easier to reach and stay at the higher pitch...?
Quote from: SarahR on February 03, 2014, 09:22:34 PM
Another video update! Enjoy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU8xK4ARI28
It's really amazing, Sarah, how each new video takes you on a massive step from the one before. I mean, I thought your voice sounded great, and 100% female in mid-January, but this is moving on to a totally different level. It's not just the pitch, it's the smoothness of tone - no rasp at all in the throat - and the ease with which you automatically emphasis things by rising in pitch, rather than volume, which is the female way of talking, as opposed to the male. I don't think that anyone hearing you talk now would take you for anything other than a perfectly normal woman ... which is precisely the point of the whole thing. Good for you! And good for Yeson, too ...
Quote from: SarahR on February 03, 2014, 09:22:34 PM
Another video update! Enjoy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU8xK4ARI28
The smile on your face when you talk about not having to be hesitant about your voice, tells me everything I need to know.
You are a super success story!
Quote from: Jamie de la Rosa on February 15, 2014, 12:06:59 AM
The smile on your face when you talk about not having to be hesitant about your voice, tells me everything I need to know.
+1
So I've been away from Susan's for a couple months as life has kind of gotten in the way, lol. I'm at 4 1/2 months post-op now, which is crazy to think that it's already been that long. I'm still really happy with my voice. I'll be doing another video update in the next couple of days probably so you can hear what it sounds like. I'm not sure how much, if any, it's changed since my last video, but it'll be good to get another progress video out there and give a full update on how things have been progressing. I'm still going to try and be diligent about doing progress videos throughout the first year at least so others (and myself as well) can hear how it progresses over that time period.
I'm also surprised just how many others are flocking to Yeson as well. I can't wait to start hearing more post-op results from others. That's definitely a big win for Yeson, and well-deserved in my eyes.
Cool Sarah - we will be eager to see another video. Maybe you can also say something about the issues that worry some - loudness, volume etc . I of course would be greatly intereste din how it feels like especially as you have used a trained voice for so long - how it does compare now to that one...if you did get the increase of 75 Hz calculated from your regular trained voice or the original voice. Also what you still do about resonance and if it is easier for you now to develop a melody when speaking that goes into higher pitches. I noticed that if I do that now, like use a high pitch for some words in a sentence - then my throat clamps up a bit to get the pitch there shortly - did you have the same issue and was it resolved? Or was it never a problem for you to use a high pitch and emphasize words by going up even higher?
Greetings :)
I'd have to say that the throat clamping thing you describe is perhaps one of the biggest changes I've noticed when it comes to speaking in a higher pitch. That used to happen to me all the time, and I would end up hurting my throat when trying to talk in any higher pitch than my old regular voice.
Volume did decrease a little bit (still getting better too I think), but it's hard for me to know whether it is from vocal tremor .. I have a feeling it is at least partly! I'm researching voice doctors in LA at the moment... Hoping to get a direct look at how things have healed over the past year and see if I should get another botox injection. Really looking forward to evaluating what kind of a difference that makes sans healing from the surgery. I have watched some before/after laryngeal botox results on YouTube, and they are dramatic. This doctor in LA, Gregory Berke, also has some kind of cure for spasmodic dysphonia. At the very least he can evaluate the status of my vocal cords and apply another botox injection if necessary
Yeah, totally makes sense to get the larynx checked by a professional locally. I still did not get the whole botox thing - on one side it seems to be why some people have a rather bad voice initially after that surgery - on the other hand it actually can improve the voice?
I was told yesterday that my "clamping" is from doing bad voice training as I did it mostly from videos and remote learning...which she said is overall the reason my voice is not really thet feminine sounding yet but of ocurse with some more training she claims it would be effortless for me in the future - but of course that is words from a voice professional who had a shocked face just hearing about surgery ;).
So the master of voice in LA, Dr. Berke, is out of the picture. He is too expensive and doesn't accept anything other than individual Anthem insurance (out of the picture for me).
His office referred me to one of the people he taught, I guess an apprentice. Her name is Dr. Amanda Salvado. Instead of $1,200 for a consultation with Dr. Berke, she is only $225 and "just as good". I have an appointment scheduled with her on Monday and will definitely be asking for laryngeal photos to post up here :) I may or may not be getting another botox injection.. that is up to her whether I need it. Very interested to see if she will detect the presence of vocal tremor that Dr. Kim diagnosed.
I'll be keeping you updated. Probably going to start YET ANOTHER thread ;)
Hi Jenny,
Quote from: Jennygirl on April 03, 2014, 04:45:48 PM
He is too expensive and doesn't accept anything other than individual Anthem insurance (out of the picture for me).
Wow. I gather Obama wasn't entirely successful then in restoring order to the wild disarray that is American health insurance...
Anyway, wishing you all the best and keep us posted of the results! (as far as they relate to VFS)
Take care,
Amy
It will be interesting to see how obamacare pans out, but right now it seems like a lot of doctors are not accepting it... Which kind of defeats the purpose... I guess the plans reimburse doctors much less than old school insurance and they aren't happy at all about it!
Heya
Long time no see! Sorry about my hiatus - but here's a video to update you guys :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eNvTB4cGTc
Sarah - you sound FANTASTIC!! Like my gosh you have to be so thrilled! I am so happy for you!
ASDF@(#%*
Abby you look INCREDIBLE! And your voice is the perfect compliment. Woweee!! Amazing transformation :D
Welcome back! Megahugs for you girl!
Abby you looked and sounded great in your video! I am relatively new to the site so I have nothing to compare it to...
I guess that is even better because you look and sound great without a "before" to contrast against!
Welcome back to Susan's!
ABBYYYYY!!!
Great to hear from you! Thanks for your video update and I'm so thrilled that you're doing so well now. You look and sound just wonderful! I mean, I knew Dr. Kim did wonders for your voice, but what Dr. diMaggio did for your face is like totally awesome!
And the recording is such a big reassurance for me: in 3 weeks, my VFS will just be behind me and I'm getting a tad nervous. But your recording (along with all the others) tells me all I need to know.
Thank you so much.
Amy
Quote from: Jennygirl on April 04, 2014, 02:03:31 AM
ASDF@(#%*
Abby you look INCREDIBLE! And your voice is the perfect compliment. Woweee!! Amazing transformation :D
Welcome back! Megahugs for you girl!
Thank you so much Jenny :)
I was looking at your surgery thread last night and you look absolutely gorgeous!! I was last here when you were first starting to heal and even early on you looked fantastic. What an amazing job Dr. Mayer did!!
Quote from: xponentialshift on April 04, 2014, 02:35:15 AM
Abby you looked and sounded great in your video! I am relatively new to the site so I have nothing to compare it to...
I guess that is even better because you look and sound great without a "before" to contrast against!
Welcome back to Susan's!
That means so much, thank you! If you want an idea of the before, one of my video's is up on Yeson's youtube channel. Although after re-watching it for the first time in months I contacted Yeson and asked if I could re-record the video now that my voice has improved and I'm post-FFS. So I will be sending the new one for them soon :)
Quote from: AmyBerlin on April 04, 2014, 03:48:59 AM
ABBYYYYY!!!
Great to hear from you! Thanks for your video update and I'm so thrilled that you're doing so well now. You look and sound just wonderful! I mean, I knew Dr. Kim did wonders for your voice, but what Dr. diMaggio did for your face is like totally awesome!
And the recording is such a big reassurance for me: in 3 weeks, my VFS will just be behind me and I'm getting a tad nervous. But your recording (along with all the others) tells me all I need to know.
Thank you so much.
Amy
Amy I am so happy for you! I know it's easier said than done but please please try not to be nervous. Everything will be fine and you are in great hands with Dr. Kim. Keep us updated with how everything goes :)
Lisa: I got your PM and I just wanted to thank you for the wonderful words. Congratulations on your surgery and this healing-re-adjusting period is going to be over before you know it! Sorry I couldn't PM you back but it's probably because I don't have the post count for it. Anyway take care!
Oh my gosh sorry Sarah I didn't realize this was your thread lol, I thought this was the main one jenny started a while back.
And I've been going through your videos and can't get over how amazing our voice sounds. Congratulations!!
ABBYYY :) - great to hear from you again - and with such a good voice. It totally fits you! Its not too high in pitch which could be as bad as if it was too low. Just heard this week about one woman who had to train her voice to be lower post VFS because she is tall and was sounding squeaky (Dr Thomas seems to have done it a bit too much). So I love that this voice fits you so well. IIRC you started out with a very low original pitch and you had a 1/3 suture, not a 1/2 like Jenny did, do I remember this correctly? Did you do a lot of voice training afterwards to get your resonance better as you mentioned it in the Video?
The most striking thing about your video definitely is that you are just beaming - you radiate so much happiness that its contageous :) - I am so happy for you!
Wow, Abby your voice is really sounding great, great, great!!! You really have gotten your resonance and inflection down perfectly. And the FFS results are superb. I'm so happy for you. You really are beaming in your video and it's so obvious how happy you are now, and you should be.
Over the past 5 years I have tried a few different voice feminization programs and also working with a Speech Therapist (Dr. Jack Pickering) and I am still not satisfied with my voice. In person I do well, but I hate how my voice sounds over the phone. After watching Sarah, Jenny and Abby's videos, I think that a trip to Yeson is in my future. Thanks for sharing your results.
Madeline
Hey I am scheduled for mine on May21st. I wIll be getting to Seoul the 18th. I am travelling by myself. Let me know if any of you got something scheduled around that time. It be awesome to get together.
Quote from: abbyt89 on April 04, 2014, 01:34:30 AM
Heya
Long time no see! Sorry about my hiatus - but here's a video to update you guys :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eNvTB4cGTc
Sarah - you sound FANTASTIC!! Like my gosh you have to be so thrilled! I am so happy for you!
Congrats!
Your voice sounds so happy.
barbie~~
Quote from: inspire on May 02, 2014, 12:28:48 AM
Hey I am scheduled for mine on May21st. I wIll be getting to Seoul the 18th. I am travelling by myself. Let me know if any of you got something scheduled around that time. It be awesome to get together.
Your trip us coming soon!! I wish you good luck on your operation. How long are you staying there? :)
So I just got back from South Korea. The surgery went well. Had the botox shot. Since then I have had sore throat n runny nose and been coughing a bit. I am not sure whats wrong. I do sound hoarse. You guys have any feedback. Botox side effects?
I am 10 days post op.
~Riya
Quote from: Jmtl on May 16, 2014, 11:48:31 AM
Your trip us coming soon!! I wish you good luck on your operation. How long are you staying there? :)
Sorry was not here that much. I was there 10 days. Got back 2 days back. It was really an awesome trip. There were three of us who connected there. We had such a fun time
Quote from: inspire on May 29, 2014, 04:38:21 PM
Sorry was not here that much. I was there 10 days. Got back 2 days back. It was really an awesome trip. There were three of us who connected there. We had such a fun time
Hey inspire!!! :) Wow!! Welcome back!! And Im so happy that your surgery went well, i wish you a fast recovery now. I cant wait to go seoul, im leaving this weekend. i have a question, with the immigration did u show anything so that they know that you cant talk??
Quote from: Jmtl on May 29, 2014, 05:35:55 PM
Hey inspire!!! :) Wow!! Welcome back!! And Im so happy that your surgery went well, i wish you a fast recovery now. I cant wait to go seoul, im leaving this weekend. i have a question, with the immigration did u show anything so that they know that you cant talk??
Well Yeson gave me flash card stating I cant talk. So they gave me a paper to write my responses down. it was not that bad at all. If you want I can help you connect with another girl from the US. She will be staying in Korea for a month. If you want to go out and explore the town with if you want to.
Quote from: inspire on May 29, 2014, 05:49:10 PM
Well Yeson gave me flash card stating I cant talk. So they gave me a paper to write my responses down. it was not that bad at all. If you want I can help you connect with another girl from the US. She will be staying in Korea for a month. If you want to go out and explore the town with if you want to.
Oh i see! :) ok that would be great! Thank you! What part of usa you from ?
Quote from: Jmtl on May 29, 2014, 08:12:12 PM
Oh i see! :) ok that would be great! Thank you! What part of usa you from ?
San Fransisco..text me on here will send u her email id xoxo
Nice to hear of your good surgery, *inspire and your upcoming surgery *Jmtl - it interesting there is such a boom nowadays. My voice therapist gets asked by more and more clients about Dr Kim already. I hope you will share your experiences and results with us later on? Did you two have practiced the voice or used a feminized voice a long time before the surgery?
Quote from: anjaq on May 30, 2014, 04:44:32 AM
Nice to hear of your good surgery, *inspire and your upcoming surgery *Jmtl - it interesting there is such a boom nowadays. My voice therapist gets asked by more and more clients about Dr Kim already. I hope you will share your experiences and results with us later on? Did you two have practiced the voice or used a feminized voice a long time before the surgery?
Hey anjaq! Thank you!! :) Yah i have been using my female voice since when i was younger, i started transition when i was 13 yrs old back in the philippines. But over the time my voice changed a bit deeper. And at times with family and closed friends, i will tend to use my normal voice. But speaking in public and with boys lol i will use my head voice. For me, i only have 3 voices that i can shift, the normal, head, falsetto which is very mickey mouse. So i was reading some of the threads here and they know very well about the resonance etc. But for me, i dont know about it. And yah, would love to do samples here but, im not sure how to do it by phone. Vocaroo seems to work only on desktop. But i will try my best. Its a big help for the girls that have the same situation about me.
Xoxo J
It's been about 6 months or so since my last voice update. I'm at about 9 months post-op with the voice surgery and it's made a really positive impact on my life. If I do think about it it's always a positive thing in that I'm just super happy with how it sounds and how it's removed any apprehension with talking. I haven't been sir'ed at all (although I haven't been sir'ed anyways for a long time, even before voice surgery). I would say that my voice stabilized around month 5 or something. Since then I haven't noticed too much change overall, if anything maybe just minor strength improvements. I did a quick test and it seems as though my normal voice is still around the 190-215Hz range on average, although it varies widely throughout normal speech, probably between 170Hz up to 300Hz, as well as varying depending on who I'm talking to. I used to have an absolute maximum peak frequency of 700Hz, whereas now it's easy to get up into the 800s, 900s, and even into 1kHz. I also tested my lowest range and it seems that I can get down to 135Hz with some difficulty.
I hope everyone is doing well, and that others are benefiting from the procedure at Yeson.
http://youtu.be/kWfY7AxINRA
Oh wow! Can really hear that you've regained the power in your voice :) Sounding good, Sarah :D
Thank you for the update :D
-MegC
Voice sounds incredible, Sarah!! Thanks for the update!
That reminds me, its been sooo long since I have done one too.
@JennyGirl: yes, it has been way too long since you did note :D *Hint hint*
Quote from: inspire on May 29, 2014, 04:35:28 PM
So I just got back from South Korea. The surgery went well. Had the botox shot. Since then I have had sore throat n runny nose and been coughing a bit. I am not sure whats wrong. I do sound hoarse. You guys have any feedback. Botox side effects?
I am 10 days post op.
~Riya
Hi Riya, I also had the Botox injection and will be at my four week mark on the 17th so I can talk again. I didn't have the runny nose, but my throat hurt and my voice was extremely weak and hoarse. It probably took me at least two and a half weeks before the soreness went away, it comes back on occasions but is getting progressively better with time. My voice is still pretty weak and hoarse but that is improving also, I would say it is about twice as good as it was to begin with. If I remember right Dr. Kim told me that it would probably be hoarse and weak for the first three months, but the pitch would start to rise dramaticly somewhere between two to four months. I hope this helps answer some questions you may have and help alleviate any concerns also.
Best wishes, Amy
Sounding good Sarah and I totally get that your are phasing out the trans-stuff. In the end that always happens, it seems. Once I had all done that I thought I needed, I was off the map for 10 years or more. Now I am back here but I guess if I get everything sorted out that brought me here, I will eventually again withdraw as well.
Your voice sounds great. Did you regain most of your pre op strength and volume back? Do you have any roughness or do you have to cough or clear your throat more often? How is it about screaming or shouting - are you allowed to do that and does it come out right (loud and at a high pitch)? You are one of the few who are that far ahead in the healing, so I wanted to ask you this ;)
Thanks for the updates.
Thanks everyone, I'm glad it still sounds good to others as well :)
Anja, I would say I've pretty much gained all strength and volume back. I don't ever notice any issues with being able to talk over loud noises or anything. When I do have to talk over noise I think I do it both with volume as well as frequency now too. I can't say that I notice any roughness in my voice either for the most part...maybe after late nights or parties, where it's generally rougher and such anyways. I would suspect I would be focusing on my voice more if I did, and since that's not the case then it serves as a good indicator of just how much it's settled into place. As for screaming and shouting, I think the best test would be to go on a roller coaster or something to see how it comes out when I'm screaming my lungs out :) I haven't had a chance yet, but I think the few times that I have had to shout it comes out good. I would say I actually have to cough or clear my throat less often now, since I used to always do it before talking to kind of stabilize my voice and get it into the right pitch. Now I don't do that, so I only cough or clear my throat when it's necessary.
Seeing as how there's been a complete reduction of me thinking about my voice or letting it stop me from engaging in conversation, I'd say it's a success!
Sounds perfect indeed, Sarah. I am happy for you. I do that thing too - coughing to get the voice ready for speaking - and also the increase in pitch to get over loud noises - although for me it increases strain on the voice I guess. Great that the strength came back, that is a good news. Not thinking about it - that is the real goal there and if you have that, its perfect :) (y)
We'll see - given that this stuff does not leave my mind, probably the only way to get it out is to just go for it and hopefully after my next ENT examination it will look better and I can try again to ask Dr Kim if he would give me a better chance now. If this is so and if I get some good impressions of meeting someone who was at yesons in person, I will probably aim for February. Does anyone know how long the waiting list is at this time - with all the girls flocking to go there...
hi girls! i booked 14 oct , and will be in korea from 13 oct to 22 oct, im from russia, 28 yo . it will be great to spend time in seoul these days with sisters from other countries! :) please email me .
Hi samira. Good luck with all of this. If you would like, it would be great if you would do some recordings of your pre op trained and untreined voice and do the same post op. Maybe also in Russian, so people from your country can have an inspiration too :). Thanks :)
Quote from: samira on August 19, 2014, 06:03:34 AM
hi girls! i booked 14 oct , and will be in korea from 13 oct to 22 oct, im from russia, 28 yo . it will be great to spend time in seoul these days with sisters from other countries! :) please email me .
There are many Russians in Seoul, together with some Russian streets and restaurants. At that time, I will be in Yeosu, a southwestern area of the peninsula for attending a conference. It will be a great season in mid October. You may need visa, which may require some documents from Yeson.
barbie~~
hello :) manager from yeson clinic said that they will make video with me :) and i will add link here ..
hi dear Barbie :) russian people dont need visa for 1 month in korea. thank you for your reply :)
So after lurking for a few days following this conversation, I have to ask are there any Yeson girls out there who are middle aged?
Define middle age, if you're talking 37, you have one right here :p
Okay maybe we should say late 40's or older then. This is something, transitioning that I've known about for most of my life, but fought for 30+ years. So Im getting a late start transitioning.
SarahR, your voice is AMAZING!!!!! SarahJ, I'm 48 years old and didn't finally come out to myself until November of last year. I have been living full time since the end of December and have been trying to get as much done as fast as I can since then (trying to make up for lost time, lol). I am now 40 days post-op and you can hear my recordings on the thread "Really scared." If you have any questions you can ask here, or PM me. Warmest wishes.
Ever since I heard my first u-tube video, I have been researching Yeson, and I can find no reason to delay moving forward and having voice surgery. Particularly since I sort of feel like I have to explain to everyone I speak to, particularly on the phone that the voice doesn't fit the name. But then I need to plan for other surgeries in the near future also.
I too feel the need to rush through surgeries as well since I turned 57 this year. Thankfully things are changing rapidly in the States these days otherwise I would never be able to even consider voice surgery much less anything else.
Still learning my way around the site. Sarah
I have been following vocal surgeries for quite a number of years and seeing your video recently is really the most amazing change I have se
I would say that I am pretty happy with how my voice sounds but every time I hear myself recorded on camera I cant bear to listen. :(
Since seeing it I have gotten on to Yeson and I am booked in for next early year.
Thanks for sharing.