So ... a few years ago I told my daughter, who were then about 21 and 22 that I had gender issues. I somewhat understated the full extent of my dysphoria, but I thought they were old enough to know a bit about who there father really was. My wife was very upset when she found out, saying that I was just putting my emotional burdens onto them, at a time when they had enough troubles of their own to deal with. And actually, I thought and still think she was probably right. I actually had done the wrong thing.
So we both agreed not to tell the girls about the issues in my life and our marriage until the point where there was definite action being taken: specifically, if I actually was transitioning and/or we were getting divorced.
Naturally, I hoped that when the time came, I would have the chance to explain my situation, to talk about the background to it - that this isn't some passing whim, or mid-life crisis, or a lifestyle choice: it's something I've been trying to deal with pretty much all my life, and that no matter what happens, my love for them remains constant. And I hoped that I'd have this conversation with my wife present, so that the girls would understand that even if she was very wounded by the whole thing, she accepted that I wasn't trying to hurt anyone or reject anyone - I was trying to save my life.
So, on Saturday - two days ago - she went up to London to see my oldest daughter, who's been having a hard time, work-wise and love-wise. I thought it was just a bit of mother-daughter bonding. The day goes by ... In the evening, our oldest daughter calls home. I pick up the call. She asks for Mum and when I say she's still on the train my daughter hangs up without another word.
A while later, I go to pick my wife up from the station. She walks off the train still talking to our daughter on the phone, ends the call as soon as she sees me and gets into the car as tense as a bowstring and white-lipped with anger. Then she tells me that she's just got both our daughters together and told them both that I'm transsexual and am very seriously considering transition. Then she says that the girls are devastated and they can't deal with it and I'm not to try to contact them because they're not ready to deal with me yet, until they've had time to process everything.
I guess I don't have to tell anyone how devastated I felt. To have such incredibly personal information given to two of the people I care most about in the world, without my knowledge, in deliberate breach of our agreement ... and then to be told that my daughters - who are now 25 and 24, so grown women - didn't want to heard from me. Well, I was distraught, hurt, furious, you name it.
My wife said she had to do it, just to feel there was something about this that she could control. She felt helpless, because there was nothing she could do to influence how I felt or what I was going to do. And she couldn't keep all her feelings inside any more. She had to tell someone, so she told the girls.
On Sunday, I wrote a short message to both my daughters - much shorter than this post! I said that I'd been asked not to discuss my situation with them, but I just wanted them to know that I loved them with all my heart; that if there was anything they wanted to ask me, or talk about, I was always here for them; and that, just as there was nothing they could do, or say, or be that would stop me loving them, so I hoped they could find it in their hearts, in time, to accept me for who I was.
Today I was told that this had only upset them even more. I don't know if it did or not. Neither daughter has said or written a word to me.
So that's one more nail in the coffin of my family life - the family I so desperately wanted to create, nurture and protect, having had a lousy time in my own childhood. But I guess there's one upside. By creating a situation in which everyone is in agony, I feel like my wife is actually pushing me towards the thing that she dreads most. At some level she's trying to provoke a crisis - possibly because, 100% understandably, she just can't bear any more uncertainty.
In which case, the hell with it. I've spent years not transitioning because I didn't want to hurt my family. Turns out that was a waste of time. On Wednesday I'm seeing my therapist ... and I'm getting the girlie show on the road!
Wow that's awful. I am really sorry.
You didn't do the wrong thing in telling them in the first place. It has to be shown to be natural to them, despite being unusual.
I woud not listen to your wife, she is deliberately doing things that are messing your relationship with them up.
Stay in contact with them and explain a little bit about how hard it has been and what it's all about. They will read it, even if they don't answer. If you let it get to the point where they don't receive any messages from you, then, that will be very bad indeed.
If it were me I would comunicate with them fairly regularly and be all the things that your wife will be telling them you are not. Be normal, yourself, loving and consistent. Tell them they should read something and send them a URL and tell them that you love them each time.
Really really really, from the bottom of my heart, good luck.
Hugs
Akira x
Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on October 07, 2013, 12:03:38 PM
Wow that's awful. I am really sorry.
You didn't do the wrong thing in telling them in the first place. It has to be shown to be natural to them, despite being unusual.
I woud not listen to your wife, she is deliberately doing things that are messing your relationship with them up.
Stay in contact with them and explain a little bit about how hard it has been and what it's all about. They will read it, even if they don't answer. If you let it get to the point where they don't receive any messages from you, then, that will be very bad indeed.
If it were me I would comunicate with them fairly regularly and be all the things that your wife will be telling them you are not. Be normal, yourself, loving and consistent. Tell them they should read something and send them a URL and tell them that you love them each time.
Really really really, from the bottom of my heart, good luck.
Hugs
Akira x
Thank you so much, Akira, for those kind, wise words.
hi Carlita,
I do not know the "social facilities" in England (you said London so I suppose Great Britain), but here
in Italy there are free "family mediators" who may help. Of course both parties (so you and your
daughters) should attend the meeting, but I would make this trial.
Another option could be a relative to which you have already come out and is supportive.
I wish that two grown up women do not stay into fear of not knowing who their father really is.
Probably their fear is blocking them, you should try to have a breech into that fear.
In any case, push the pedal into transition (if this is what you want). You have seen that waiting
for others are ready is a waste of time, or worse.
I think you're right, Marina. My adult daughters should be able to know the truth about their father and then decide how they want to respond. The both know that I would always accept them. I'm hoping they will do the same for me. And yes, I'm putting the transition pedal to the metal!
The move your wife made was out of anger and frustration. She's worried, embarrassed, and probably thinks that the whole of your marriage is a farce. I know that she's probably very angry but I worry in what ways that she framed her conversation with your daughters.
Give this some time and see what comes of things. Don't rush off but, if you feel that you should transition, well, your kids are adults now and it may be time for you to proceed with your own life. I would wait at least a little while before doing anything, however, as you being the one to frame the next part of the conversation would probably be beneficial as, your side of the story is just as important to them as their mother's, I'd expect, (I'm trying to make no assumptions about your family dynamic but I was in their place, I'd want to know the whole story).
All that said, you know your kids. You know their relationship with their mother and you know their expectations about yourself. They have a lot of hopes and dreams in which the version of you who wasn't transitioned played a large part, I'm sure, so you might really want to slow this down a little bit so that you can work through this, unless you really *do* want to end up causing more harm than good. If I'm reading the context right, another several months won't make that much of a difference one way or the other. Ask your therapist, look into the literature on the topic of dealing with family, and really try to work through this with an open heart and some understanding of their very genuine pains. They're not rejecting 'the real you' but holding on to their understanding and comprehension of who you are.
Put another way: do this out of love and patience rather than desperation and frustration and you'll probably have a better result. Maybe you won't but even if so, you'll know that you went about it in the best way possible. Early in transition and coming out, we are all very anxious to get the ball rolling, so to speak. It's often the patently poor mishandling of the situation on *our* parts that destroys relationships, as often as the prejudices and intolerance of others.
Just my 2¢.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 07, 2013, 01:14:25 PM
The move your wife made was out of anger and frustration. She's worried, embarrassed, and probably thinks that the whole of your marriage is a farce. I know that she's probably very angry but I worry in what ways that she framed her conversation with your daughters.
Give this some time and see what comes of things. Don't rush off but, if you feel that you should transition, well, your kids are adults now and it may be time for you to proceed with your own life. I would wait at least a little while before doing anything, however, as you being the one to frame the next part of the conversation would probably be beneficial as, your side of the story is just as important to them as their mother's, I'd expect, (I'm trying to make no assumptions about your family dynamic but I was in their place, I'd want to know the whole story).
All that said, you know your kids. You know their relationship with their mother and you know their expectations about yourself. They have a lot of hopes and dreams in which the version of you who wasn't transitioned played a large part, I'm sure, so you might really want to slow this down a little bit so that you can work through this, unless you really *do* want to end up causing more harm than good. If I'm reading the context right, another several months won't make that much of a difference one way or the other. Ask your therapist, look into the literature on the topic of dealing with family, and really try to work through this with an open heart and some understanding of their very genuine pains. They're not rejecting 'the real you' but holding on to their understanding and comprehension of who you are.
Put another way: do this out of love and patience rather than desperation and frustration and you'll probably have a better result. Maybe you won't but even if so, you'll know that you went about it in the best way possible. Early in transition and coming out, we are all very anxious to get the ball rolling, so to speak. It's often the patently poor mishandling of the situation on *our* parts that destroys relationships, as often as the prejudices and intolerance of others.
Just my 2¢.
Well that's 2¢ very well spent! If it doesn't seem totally contradictory, I'm going to rush it AND go slow! What I mean is, I fully intend to start some of the vital, but less obtrusive aspects of transition, like beard removal, as soon as I can. But I'm not going to rush into HRT, or presenting as a woman. That's mostly because I have another kid, my teenage son to consider. But you're absolutely right, the whole family needs time to come to terms with what is, obviously, an incredibly shocking, traumatic, frightening idea - I mean, any son or daughter, at any age is going to be freaked by the thought that the father they've always seen as kind of the original man in their lives, and the basic role-model for a boy is suddenly telling them s/he's a woman.
Plus, as much as there's an inner voice screaming, 'Go faster! Go faster!' I think there's a lot to be said for a more gentle transition. It's those old baby-steps again!
I almost had a similar thing done to me... and mine would have been much less cruel had it happened.
I told my wife less than a week after coming out (see my sig)... and every time I asked her if she wanted me to tell her family she said in my own time. Telling her family would also mean telling mine - since they all talk... and one person in her family even works where I work.
A month later I came home from my therapist's and was told around 8pm I need to come out to the entire family within 24 hours or so and she was going to tell them herself. Luckily I had letters already prepared. I went to see one SIL and her SO (the guy that works with me) because they were going on vacation the next day. The rest I went to see over 6 hours the following evening.
No matter what anyone tells you, it's your right to tell people in the way you want to tell them. It should be your right to decide when - though it doesn't always work out that way.
*hug* If I had let myself know/been honest with myself about being trans at the time of my divorce, I am *certain* my now-ex would have done something similar. She was angry, oh, so angry, as it was. She did nearly anything she could to destroy my image with all our mutual friends, she invaded my home, she continued her emotional and physical abuse whenever she could. It was a horror show.
But now, three years on, she seems to have reconciled herself. It took a lot of time and several confrontations (and I had to call the cops on her at least three times), but we are finally at a better place, which is a wonderful thing for our 11-year-old daughter. We can now hold a pleasant conversation, work out issues, and work together toward our daughter's future.
I haven't told her yet (I only just came out to my daughter this past weekend and I need to tell my mother next, as well as get my legal ducks in a row about custody just in case), but I believe that now, at last, she is in a more receptive state.
What I hope is happening is that your wife just needs time to adjust. She is hurting; she no doubt let her hurt show to your daughters. They are hurt and shocked, too, because of the manner of the delivery. I know it doesn't help much now to hear this, but time will help. What she did (and the manner of it) was NOT OK. You have a right to be upset. But she is no doubt acting from a bad place, too; she has a right to be upset as well. That doesn't give her the right to do what she did, but I'm glad you are able to consider it on her behalf.
Just please remember it is not your fault, and that over time things *will* get better. It can be very hard to see it in the short run, but eventually things do.
*hug* Please be well and happy with yourself; that will make it easier for others to be happy for you and with you. :)
Carlita, I was thinking...
You have probably done so already, but you should definatly make your wife aware that, in her effort to hurt you, poisoning your relationship with your children is a cup that both you and they drink from and it will hurt them as much as it hurts you. She should be helping them to feel secure, not using them as a weapon against you, and hurting them in the process.
Carlita, I have no wise words to share. All I can say was I was incredibly moved by your post and really feel for you. If there was anything that I could do, I would do it. I'm soo sorry you have to go through this. I sincerely hope that your family will heal in time.
It sure sounds like your wife went out of her way to try to hurt you as best as she can... and has been for a while now. Sorry, but at 21 your daughters are adults. It was perfectly OK for you to have an adult conversation with them. Being advised to not to ever talk to them again it because "it upset them" was just a way to manipulate them and you. "Oh... we haven't heard anything again about daddy's gender stuff" to the most likely "Do you know your father is going to whack off his willy?" "Oh poor me, and you think you have problems!" All after nearly two years of radio silence! Yeppers, a bit of a shocker when they figured it was "just a phase". Knowing how my ex responded to me I can only imagine what other imagined scenarios she may have "speculated" to your daughters about.
My wife/BFF and my marriage survived the simultaneous disasters of a job lost, long distance relationship and my crash and burn into Transland only through plenty of open and honest communication (along with gallons of tears). There was plenty of anger, resentment, feelings of betrayal, abandonment. We both put in the hard work to try to make things work. It seems that your case went a different route... bottled up anger waiting to erupt like Vesuvius.
My advice is look for a divorce lawyer after the therapist. My Spider Sense is tingling. Your wife is either looking or has one or is primed to make your life a living hell... no matter what you do next.
I hope you can rebuild what was just destroyed, but without the help of your wife it may be impossible. It would have been nice if she gave you the oportunity to talk to your daughters first, but the damage is done and it's time to move on.
Some of the girls on the forum may not like this, but even if it upsets your wife you may as well talk with your therapist about starting. You had already come to the realization you had to begin hormones in some way, and it appears your wife knows it's inevitable. But first tell your wife about your plans, you don't want to give her a reason to make your life even more difficult.
I don't know if a lawyer is needed yet, but your wife may already have talked to someone about divorce. And I think Joanne may be right about the rest of what she said.
Quote from: JoanneB on October 07, 2013, 07:47:02 PM
My advice is look for a divorce lawyer after the therapist. My Spider Sense is tingling. Your wife is either looking or has one or is primed to make your life a living hell... no matter what you do next.
Take care. K
Quote from: kathyk on October 07, 2013, 09:32:39 PM
I hope you can rebuild what was just destroyed, but without the help of your wife it may be impossible. It would have been nice if she gave you the oportunity to talk to your daughters first, but the damage is done and it's time to move on.
Some of the girls on the forum may not like this, but even if it upsets your wife you may as well talk with your therapist about starting. You had already come to the realization you had to begin hormones in some way, and it appears your wife knows it's inevitable. But first tell your wife about your plans, you don't want to give her a reason to make your life even more difficult.
I don't know if a lawyer is needed yet, but your wife may already have talked to someone about divorce. And I think Joanne may be right about the rest of what she said.
Take care. K
Well, I can see exactly why you and Joanne say that my wife is positioning herself for a divorce, and it sure as ->-bleeped-<- looks like she wanted to poison the kids against me ... or at the very least heap a whole load of pain onto them ... But she swears she doesn't want to split - though she cannot bear to live under the same roof as me if/when I transition - and that she didn't badmouth me when she spoke to the girls ...
I don't know what to think, really. All I know is, she's in terrible pain. She also has a very hard time being honest with herself about her feelings (she prefers to see herself as the victim of everyone else's troubles, rather than someone who is an active, responsible participant in her own right, with issues of her own). I'm not sure that there's any conscious plan behind her actions. I think she's just acting out, venting, lashing out at anything or everything, just to try and ease the pain ...
And to that extent, I know exactly how she feels.
PS: Thanks once again to everyone who has replied. I really value all your kind thoughts so much and it's such a help to know that there's a place where I can come - and we all can come - to work through all these issues which are so completely baffling to the outside world by communicating with people who really, really know what it's like to live with gender dysphoria.
Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 05:03:36 AM
...
And to that extent, I know exactly how she feels.
PS: Thanks once again to everyone who has replied. I really value all your kind thoughts so much and it's such a help to know that there's a place where I can come - and we all can come - to work through all these issues which are so completely baffling to the outside world by communicating with people who really, really know what it's like to live with gender dysphoria.
I'm thankful every day that there are people I can talk to. It also lightens the load our supporters need to carry! They and we need that.
And I'm right there with you. My wife has to split with me - she's made that clear. I've tried every other possible way to keep us together, even just as housemates, but I totally understand why. It's painful, but I was in denial over that for at least 6 weeks.
Aside from that, though... my wife
is a victim. She's 2nd in line to the problem, after myself. It's just painful that nearly everyone else sees her as the #1 victim and treats me as deciding to do this to her. My wife is in pain over needing to sell the house (something she's trying not to do, but she'll fail). She's in pain over a 4th child she won't ever have. She has terrible social anxiety now (it was bad before, but she hid it very well - including from me to a degree).
The hardest part for us is that, as the condition carrier (and sorry if that sounds bad... it's the nicest way to put it with respect to how our families are feeling), there's nothing we can do to help. I admire my wife's strength... but she hates me right now and I'm afraid of where she'll take the divorce when we get to that point. I hope for mediation, but I also don't want to leave her and the kids struggling.
There's just nothing easy about being transgender with kids.
Quote from: kabit on October 08, 2013, 06:43:17 AM
The hardest part for us is that, as the condition carrier (and sorry if that sounds bad... it's the nicest way to put it with respect to how our families are feeling), there's nothing we can do to help. I admire my wife's strength... but she hates me right now and I'm afraid of where she'll take the divorce when we get to that point. I hope for mediation, but I also don't want to leave her and the kids struggling.
There's just nothing easy about being transgender with kids.
This.
Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 05:03:36 AM
Well, I can see exactly why you and Joanne say that my wife is positioning herself for a divorce, and it sure as ->-bleeped-<- looks like she wanted to poison the kids against me ... or at the very least heap a whole load of pain onto them ... But she swears she doesn't want to split - though she cannot bear to live under the same roof as me if/when I transition - and that she didn't badmouth me when she spoke to the girls ...
I don't know what to think, really. All I know is, she's in terrible pain. She also has a very hard time being honest with herself about her feelings (she prefers to see herself as the victim of everyone else's troubles, rather than someone who is an active, responsible participant in her own right, with issues of her own). I'm not sure that there's any conscious plan behind her actions. I think she's just acting out, venting, lashing out at anything or everything, just to try and ease the pain ...
And to that extent, I know exactly how she feels.
PS: Thanks once again to everyone who has replied. I really value all your kind thoughts so much and it's such a help to know that there's a place where I can come - and we all can come - to work through all these issues which are so completely baffling to the outside world by communicating with people who really, really know what it's like to live with gender dysphoria.
She may not be trying to cause a divorce. It's very possible it was reactionary and she simply believed the kids should know. It's a big change for everyone involved and maybe she needed to talk to people she could confide in. I know it was very hard for my family members to keep it to themselves. They felt everyone had the right to know and they needed someone else to talk to about my transition in order to cope. However, it is also possible that she is trying to control your transition by telling your children. She must realize that it's emotionally stressful for you and that this can create an emotional burden that may make you reconsider transitioning. It may not be a control tactic, but it could be as well.
Quote from: learningtolive on October 08, 2013, 06:57:56 AM
She may not be trying to cause a divorce. It's very possible it was reactionary and she simply believed the kids should know. It's a big change for everyone involved and maybe she needed to talk to people she could confide in. I know it was very hard for my family members to keep it to themselves. They felt everyone had the right to know and they needed someone else to talk to about my transition in order to cope. However, it is also possible that she is trying to control your transition by telling your children. She must realize that it's emotionally stressful for you and that this can create an emotional burden that may make you reconsider transitioning. It may not be a control tactic, but it could be as well.
You know, it could actually be ALL of those things, all swirling around in a great, chaotic whirlpool of emotion. I absolutely know she couldn't bear to keep everything inside her any longer, which I can quite understand. I think there may well have been an element of trying to control or impede transition.
I also fear that telling my daughters may be having unintended consequences, in terms of their reactions that she may come to regret. I don't have the facts, just what I'm sensing from things other people are telling me ..
Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 07:24:47 AM
You know, it could actually be ALL of those things, all swirling around in a great, chaotic whirlpool of emotion. I absolutely know she couldn't bear to keep everything inside her any longer, which I can quite understand. I think there may well have been an element of trying to control or impede transition.
I also fear that telling my daughters may be having unintended consequences, in terms of their reactions that she may come to regret. I don't have the facts, just what I'm sensing from things other people are telling me ..
It's difficult for them to keep inside. My wife told two people - one is a mutual friend of ours who is totally neutral and supportive to both of us. I'm happy she knows and happy she knew early. The other was one sister - who really dragged it out of her. Her family (and mine) knew something was up and one sister is good at wheedling and needling. She was also the hardest one I came out to - since she had a week or two to prepare a diatribe. On the positive side, that sister kept it to herself -- she even kept it from her SO (who works with me)! He was the "good cop" when I came out to them both... so I'm pretty happy at how it went.
My wife has also improved since I came out to her whole family. She still has a lot of difficulty, but improved...
I would definitely prepare a letter to your daughters. You say they won't speak to you, but they need to be told by you and hear your side of it. I wouldn't talk about their mother or that situation in the letter... keep it about you and them. Hopefully they'll come around!
Good luck! ♥
Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 07:24:47 AM
You know, it could actually be ALL of those things, all swirling around in a great, chaotic whirlpool of emotion. I absolutely know she couldn't bear to keep everything inside her any longer, which I can quite understand. I think there may well have been an element of trying to control or impede transition.
After reading other posts I think a lot of what you say here is highly accurate. I tried to put myself into the position of my own wifes struggle to cope with loosing the person she lived with for 35 years. But it's so difficult to feel how deeply our transitions effect people. And even our most beloved partners have emotions we can never quite grasp.
I don't think I should say or read much more about wives, 'cause I sure screwed up my marriage with bad plans and poor understanding.
Hugs Calrlita.
Not to sound harsh but if she feels she has to be in control or influence you that isn't exactly a healthy mindset to be in for a relationship.
Quote from: EmeraldPerpugilliam on October 08, 2013, 08:38:47 AM
Not to sound harsh but if she feels she has to be in control or influence you that isn't exactly a healthy mindset to be in for a relationship.
Don't we all want to feel we have some control over our lives?
Now that a few days have passed, I'm finding it easier to sympathise with what she did. I mean, I still think it was wrong, and it hurt me like hell, but I understand that feeling of having it all welling up inside and just needing to talk to someone - anyone - about it. I mean, I felt just the same way.
And now that she's got it off her chest, she seems a lot calmer, like she's accepted what's going to happen and now it's not a question of trying to prevent it, but trying to manage her response to it as calmly and constructively as possible.
But yes, Kathyk, it's really, really hard to lose someone you've been with for that long - almost 32 years in our case - and also to wonder whether you ever really had him at all. Because for a wife there's that terrible feeling that 'he' was never the man she'd thought she'd marriage. So she can't help fearing that she threw away the best years of her life on something that was never real at all. I don't see it that way. But I can understand that she's thinking that - and that it's a devastating thought.
Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 09:37:32 AM
Don't we all want to feel we have some control over our lives?
Now that a few days have passed, I'm finding it easier to sympathise with what she did. I mean, I still think it was wrong, and it hurt me like hell, but I understand that feeling of having it all welling up inside and just needing to talk to someone - anyone - about it. I mean, I felt just the same way.
I hope that reconciliation is on your horizon, I really do. But please, play it safe. If you have only joint accounts with her, I strongly recommend you pull a couple hundred dollars at least out and sock it away just in case. It's a good policy to have some good cash around anyway. I hope you don't need it, I hope I'm just being paranoid because of my past experiences, but having a little operating capital onhand just in case can make a world of difference.
*hug* Good luck; it isn't an easy road we are on, sister, but it ends in self-acceptance. Something so precious that nothing on this world is sufficient to replace it.
Quote from: robinmack on October 08, 2013, 09:52:23 AM
I hope that reconciliation is on your horizon, I really do. But please, play it safe. If you have only joint accounts with her, I strongly recommend you pull a couple hundred dollars at least out and sock it away just in case. It's a good policy to have some good cash around anyway. I hope you don't need it, I hope I'm just being paranoid because of my past experiences, but having a little operating capital onhand just in case can make a world of difference.
*hug* Good luck; it isn't an easy road we are on, sister, but it ends in self-acceptance. Something so precious that nothing on this world is sufficient to replace it.
That's a very good idea... just to be safe in these difficult situations. Squirrel some away every week or two just in case (especially if you can see it on the horizon but it's not too close yet).
Don't worry, ladies - I have my own account! ;)
I'm sorry to hear about how your wife is reacting. What's really hard to understand is that you're the same person you've always been but YOU'RE happier. You still have the kind loving personality you've always had and likely even more so now since you're eliminating an internal conflict.
Best of luck. Hugs and kisses.
Jeannie
Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 10:07:03 AM
Don't worry, ladies - I have my own account! ;)
Glad to hear it... but cash is your friend. Accounts can be frozen if particularly vicious
sharks lawyers get involved. It's possible her calm is coming from having a plan of action, rather than reconciliation.
Again, I sincerely hope this is not the case, but a girl can't be too careful!
Quote from: robinmack on October 08, 2013, 10:16:58 AM
Glad to hear it... but cash is your friend. Accounts can be frozen if particularly vicious sharks lawyers get involved. It's possible her calm is coming from having a plan of action, rather than reconciliation.
Again, I sincerely hope this is not the case, but a girl can't be too careful!
I don't think we've got to that point, yet ... but I agree, a girl should put her money in a shark-proof cage! :)
Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 11:56:33 AM
I don't think we've got to that point, yet ... but I agree, a girl should put her money in a shark-proof cage! :)
Be very, very cautious about what precautions you take. ANY defensive actions on your part will be seen as aggressive. She's in a whole world of pain and that can lash out very quickly and violently.
Honestly, I'd say that trust is the only way that situations like this resolve with any degree of good outcome. Trust and love and lots and lots of open, unselfish conversation where you're expressing yourself honestly but without... how shall I put this?... without the pressure to 'make her' just be okay with the situation. She won't be for a while. Open up. Show her the you that you've been hiding. HRT will make this a bit easier and, perhaps you'd want to start that before doing any physical changes as I've found that T is a hell of an emotional numbing agent. Maybe you want to take her to talk with your counselor. Maybe you should go on a date! There's lots of ways to express how important she is to you and include her in this process rather than just 'doing it' which, to her feels like 'doing it to her'.
Be kind and gentle, tell her that you understand why she outed you to your daughters but tell her how much that hurt (and so on and so on). Remember that this is the woman that you raised a family with and that you love her.
Transition *is* an inherently selfish act, just by its very nature, and, in the rush of new expressions and emotions and everything else, we can get very VERY caught up in that selfishness and turn it from the self-interested kind to the self-absorbed kind. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, use it with an open heart and you might be very surprised.
Also: talk way, way less. Touch, look at her, hold her, look into her eyes without a shield set up against possible hurt. Did I mention talking less is better? It's better.
Quote from: Carlita on October 07, 2013, 01:30:19 PM
Well that's 2¢ very well spent! If it doesn't seem totally contradictory, I'm going to rush it AND go slow! What I mean is, I fully intend to start some of the vital, but less obtrusive aspects of transition, like beard removal, as soon as I can. But I'm not going to rush into HRT, or presenting as a woman. That's mostly because I have another kid, my teenage son to consider. But you're absolutely right, the whole family needs time to come to terms with what is, obviously, an incredibly shocking, traumatic, frightening idea - I mean, any son or daughter, at any age is going to be freaked by the thought that the father they've always seen as kind of the original man in their lives, and the basic role-model for a boy is suddenly telling them s/he's a woman.
Carlita your heartache is easy for me to understand. I feel I lived a life of denial while leaving clues everywhere. I wore my hair very long and was girly in many ways. I came out Bi over 30 years ago. This was vey difficult for my son, then a teenager and now a grown man. He invented stories about me being a policeman and became a macho, muscled, skin head. He refused to talk to me for 10 years. Now that I have been completely "out" for nine months he finds it easier to understand our lives and it makes "sense" to him that I was really "more of a woman." We are closer than ever, if long distance, in sharing our truths. Resolution for you and your family need not take so long.
I was unable to come out and accept myself as transgender but waiting did not make it any easier. Waiting for others to accept us only gives them a sad veto power to wield. Your love and concern have likely been demonstrated for your family for decades and that depth will remain. I believe that your family will be able to avail themselves of your love and the wealth of accepting and educational resources in this wired and informed world.
One of the first steps I took was removing a life long beard that I hid behind. I am finding that some of these steps that seem so important to me are mere hiccups for others. I admire your resolve and thoughtful consideration of steps forward. Your shared story also gives us further opportunity to understand and gain from the very excellent advice from our sisters here. Thank you!
Big warm Hugs!
You're absolutely right, Victoria, about the need for me to respect all the grief that my wife is going through and acknowledge that, yes, transition is, by definition selfish (in that it's above all about trying to find our true selves, for our own good), just as she has to accept that this is something essential for me, and only undertaken after trying every possible thing I can think of to avoid it.
We both know that we have a choice. We can either try to find a way through this, as painful as it is, with as much love, trust and kindness as we can muster. Or we can make one another's lives hell, spend a fortune on lawyers, and wreck whatever chance our kids have of getting through the process themselves in reasonably good shape. The events of the past few days, and how horrible they made us both feel have really concentrated our minds on the need to be kind to one another if we possibly can, and we're trying to work out practical solutions that will enable us to get through the massive upheaval of the next few years.
And, Tessa, I'm sure you're right about the benefits of being honest .. and also the damage that can be caused by that combination of 'denial and clues'. I may not have liked the way my wife did it, but at least she brought things out into the open, and that may well be for the good in the long run.
So there may be a positive outcome to what was a very wounding event.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 08, 2013, 12:21:03 PM
Be very, very cautious about what precautions you take. ANY defensive actions on your part will be seen as aggressive. She's in a whole world of pain and that can lash out very quickly and violently.
Honestly, I'd say that trust is the only way that situations like this resolve with any degree of good outcome. Trust and love and lots and lots of open, unselfish conversation where you're expressing yourself honestly but without... how shall I put this?... without the pressure to 'make her' just be okay with the situation. She won't be for a while. Open up. Show her the you that you've been hiding. HRT will make this a bit easier and, perhaps you'd want to start that before doing any physical changes as I've found that T is a hell of an emotional numbing agent. Maybe you want to take her to talk with your counselor. Maybe you should go on a date! There's lots of ways to express how important she is to you and include her in this process rather than just 'doing it' which, to her feels like 'doing it to her'.
Be kind and gentle, tell her that you understand why she outed you to your daughters but tell her how much that hurt (and so on and so on). Remember that this is the woman that you raised a family with and that you love her.
Transition *is* an inherently selfish act, just by its very nature, and, in the rush of new expressions and emotions and everything else, we can get very VERY caught up in that selfishness and turn it from the self-interested kind to the self-absorbed kind. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, use it with an open heart and you might be very surprised.
Also: talk way, way less. Touch, look at her, hold her, look into her eyes without a shield set up against possible hurt. Did I mention talking less is better? It's better.
That is very helpful to anyone in transition with family, I think. Thank you!
Oh, one other thing ... the only problem I have with your advice, Victoria is: 'Talk less.'
I'm sure you're right. In fact, I know you are ... but as may be obvious from this thread, silence is not my strongpoint!! ;)
Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 12:54:15 PM
Oh, one other thing ... the only problem I have with your advice, Victoria is: 'Talk less.'
I'm sure you're right. In fact, I know you are ... but as may be obvious from this thread, silence is not my strongpoint!! ;)
:D Just because the advice is next to impossible to take. . . .
I have the same exact problem. In fact, I'd take that advice with some temperance. Sometimes silence can be too silent. My wife was silent for 2 months before she opened up
a little. I have been staying silent with my parents and finally wrote them a 3 page letter with my history, my plan going forward, and that I'm not going to take derision (from people I love - the street kind I'll get used to).
I thought I'd lost my parents for good - there has been no communications since I sent the letter (granted... Sunday - so just a few days). My mother was watching the kids today and we had a good talk when I got home and she was leaving. I had a lot of tears to stop and clean up before I went to get my son off the bus (I had a good 5 minutes... which is not that simple anymore, but far easier than in a year, I think).
The words you choose are important... the words you choose not to say are more important.
(And sometimes I'm just so frustrated or angry I reverse the two ;))
Quote from: Carlita on October 08, 2013, 12:54:15 PM
Oh, one other thing ... the only problem I have with your advice, Victoria is: 'Talk less.'
I'm sure you're right. In fact, I know you are ... but as may be obvious from this thread, silence is not my strongpoint!! ;)
Hi Carlita,
Sorry to hear that you are going through a rough spot but I think you know at this stage that it comes with the territory. You have already received a lot of excellent feedback and I'd give a special mention to what Victoria said. Transitioning can be such an all consuming endeavor that we can forget that other people have needs too. It's such an inherent part of the journey that we need to pro-actively work on countering it, for example by deliberately doing things and creating events which show how important our loved ones remain for us and also quite simply demonstrating that life for everyone can go on both during and after a transition.
Also, I came out to my (young adult) kids in summer 2011 and they were probably initially as shocked as yours were, especially my eldest who asked me to leave her some time to digest it all. I respected this and overall, took a very softly, softly approach to letting them discover the hidden me. For example, they didn't see me presenting female for almost 15 months after this.
End of the day, they have all come to accept the change very well and recently all three even contributed letters in support of my civil identity change. More importantly than anything, following this two year period of readjustment, we are proablably closer today than at any time since I left my first wife 14 years ago.
Time is a great healer and if you remain true to both yourself and those who count for you, the light will finally shine through!
Hugs
Donna
When I came out, my eldest son cut me off from him and his family. I've not seen my granddaughters by him in 15 months now. At first I was angry but then I realized that this was not my fault. It was his choice and I cannot live his life for him. I've learned to forgive him, not because I agree with him, but because I don't wish to hold a grudge. My door is ever open for him, his spouse, and their daughters should they wish to speak with me again.
And if they don't, that's their choice. I'll have to accept that. But it taught me that postponing facing my own issues, dodging them, coming up with excuses why I could never transition in the past all for the "sake" of my family - all this was wrong and I should have just done what I wanted to do. They would have either dealt with it or not.
Quote from: LizMarie on October 08, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
When I came out, my eldest son cut me off from him and his family. I've not seen my granddaughters by him in 15 months now. At first I was angry but then I realized that this was not my fault. It was his choice and I cannot live his life for him. I've learned to forgive him, not because I agree with him, but because I don't wish to hold a grudge. My door is ever open for him, his spouse, and their daughters should they wish to speak with me again.
And if they don't, that's their choice. I'll have to accept that. But it taught me that postponing facing my own issues, dodging them, coming up with excuses why I could never transition in the past all for the "sake" of my family - all this was wrong and I should have just done what I wanted to do. They would have either dealt with it or not.
But so sad :'( I really hope they just need some time to come around! I'm trying to repair the damage I've done in my own son over his 8 years. I'm certain I imposed some pretty strong ideas about gender in him, but at least he's young. I wonder if others pushed stronger gender roles on their kids because of their own hidden condition?
::)
the more I listen to these stories the more I realize that coming out is really
an act of self love which is seldom understood, mistaken for selfish act, or,
worse. My thoughts are towards you and your life. be careful
Quote from: Marina mtf on October 09, 2013, 06:59:56 AM
::)
the more I listen to this stories the more I realize that coming out is really
an act of self love which is seldom understood, mistaken for selfish act, or,
worse. My thoughts are towards you and your life. be careful
I had that exact "conversation" (argument, diatribe) with my wife last night. I didn't get much sleep... but it worked out ok.
Sometimes the 'wrong' words help too! I was clearly pissed and upset that she really believed I lied to her because of the memories I've been surfacing. I was also upset that she thought a messy divorce was in her best intrest (something she let out online to me). I think how upset I was got through more than the words... but it all worked out well. I told her I came out to her, and am going through with this for the *best* interests of the family. I have no idea if she'll believe that... I also got her to agree that a mediated divorce would be best for the kids (something she cares about) and that I'm more than willing to negotiate fairly. Hopefully that sticks.
The way she was talking (about raking me over the coals, basically)... I'd end up losing my job and everyone would be
worse off. I have no idea if that's true... but I can't see how I'd live on the worst-case amount I can come up with (around $1000 / mo after taxes and everything - you can't get an apartment in my area for much less than that).
Quote from: kabit on October 09, 2013, 07:15:23 AM
The way she was talking (about raking me over the coals, basically)... I'd end up losing my job and everyone would be worse off. I have no idea if that's true... but I can't see how I'd live on the worst-case amount I can come up with (around $1000 / mo after taxes and everything - you can't get an apartment in my area for much less than that).
The worst case scenario is obviously just that... and there are people who make it on much less than $1000 anywhere. For one thing, there are a lot of retired people who supplement their income by renting out rooms. Your local LGBT center probably has some knowledge of "family" friendly places like that. Of course there is a risk in transitioning of losing everything... it has happened before, and I'm certain it will happen again. I think that's what it has to come down to, for some of us, at least. I strongly recommend talking to your therapist about all this stuff; they can help you plan, and help you determine just how strongly you feel about transitioning, how quickly you need to, etc.
For many, many people (and I fear I am included in this list) the choice is clear: emotional or physical death at some point down the line as your biological gender, finally giving up when you just can't make it anymore, or starting over again in a new gender, with the ability to be yourself, but without much of a safety net. The trouble for us late transitioners is that the later you start, the more entrenched you are in your current career, and the more money you need to continue your current lifestyle, and the more obligations you have. I wish I had started transitioning when I could just take a job anywhere... but then again, I would not have had the money and resources to transition in the relative comfort I enjoy now. I do not want to think about what transitioning would have been like when I had to go through the couch to scrape up money for ramen... *shiver*
I look at it this way: The worst might very well happen. My wonderful, supportive, loving girlfriend could die tonight, or tomorrow. Who knows? I could lose my job and be unable to find another, so I would lose my house and likely sleep in my car for a while. In the area where I live, the food-banks are all tied to conservative churches and do not serve the LGBT community. I'd have to find a new job, with no money and little chance of SRS in the future. So, no job, no girlfriend, no house, the car might even die on me, or I might be unable to get gas. I don't *think* my family would let me be homeless, but then again they might not be able to accept me for who I am. When I think about all that stuff, and I *still* want to express myself as a woman because putting up with all of that is *worth* it to avoid the certain doom of continuing to present myself as the wrong gender... well, that's when I knew I needed to transition.
From what I've seen, you may not be there yet, but there is an excellent chance that you will get there. There is a reason the medical industry takes gender dysphoria seriously: it's because it can be/often is *deadly* if it is not acted on... and the longer it is delayed, the worse things get as a rule. There is a treatment that is, according to some studies, 95% effective... and that is to transition.
Here's hoping, Sis, that it all works out for you. I'm sorry if this post is over the top... I'm writing it because it's what I feel *I* needed when I was in your situation years ago. If it is off the mark or causes you pain, please accept my apologies.
*hug*
Quote from: robinmack on October 09, 2013, 09:52:52 AM
From what I've seen, you may not be there yet, but there is an excellent chance that you will get there. There is a reason the medical industry takes gender dysphoria seriously: it's because it can be/often is *deadly* if it is not acted on... and the longer it is delayed, the worse things get as a rule. There is a treatment that is, according to some studies, 95% effective... and that is to transition.
Here's hoping, Sis, that it all works out for you. I'm sorry if this post is over the top... I'm writing it because it's what I feel *I* needed when I was in your situation years ago. If it is off the mark or causes you pain, please accept my apologies.
*hug*
No, it's good! :D
I think I'm over the edge in terms of needing to transition. I'm so incredibly happy now that I'm finally doing something that I can see that I was never really happy before. I've mentioned (too much... I'm trying not to) that forcing it back into a male shell would kill me. Not suicide - I don't think I could - but definitely something that wouldn't be good for the family. I know it to be true.
I understand the worst case could happen. My wife loves her kids a lot and wants to keep everything she has now and more. We're definitely not going through this soon, though... and she's starting to realize that there has to be give and take. She could lose everything too, and there's a very narrow margian where we can both make it through this and live at our means. My job depends directly on my financial well being (I am gov't and would likely lose my job if I were not able to maintain a steady residence or had problems paying my bills). If she does not have my child support (which would be gone if I weren't employed), she would not be able to afford whatever she ends up doing.
I'm just looking at worst case. She could cause that, but she's smart and I don't think she will. We're also aiming at being still friendly (not quite there yet) and non-mediation would probably destroy that possibility.
I'm an optimist, which doesn't always do well for me under these circumstances, but I'm still most happy with myself as a woman. I am a woman and need to work toward presenting female. Hopefully many of those changes can at least be started before divorce. And while I'm wishing... hopefully they remove the "no gender transformations" exclusion from my health insurance so I can afford HRT... (or at least just exclude gender surgeries, which I'm personally fine with right now).
Divorce is the #1 issue for today's therapy appointment :)
Divorce is a funny thing. My spouse was shocked at my initial revelation to her 18 months ago. But she rapidly immersed herself in books and articles to understand it and was even talking about staying together for the first few months. Then she took a month vacation to spend with her parents. When she returned she flatly announced we were divorcing. Just like that. And she insisted that we needed to tell our adult children so that's when we did.
We're still planning to divorce sometime in the next two years or so. We're staying together for the moment as she does not have a job and wants to return to school to refresh her resume. I'm ok with that. We're better off financially in the current situation than me trying to support her and myself separately. But she's also warned me that she may not make it all the way through school without emotionally being devastated as I transition so she may move out before that point (at which point we'd at least legally separate).
The reason I bring this up is because you can never be quite sure how your spouse is going to react, or how their reaction may change as time goes on. What seems perfectly fine can suddenly become completely unacceptable to them.
Just be prepared and aware that this is a process and your spouse's position can change at any time.
Quote from: Donna E on October 08, 2013, 03:45:10 PM
Hi Carlita,
Sorry to hear that you are going through a rough spot but I think you know at this stage that it comes with the territory. You have already received a lot of excellent feedback and I'd give a special mention to what Victoria said. Transitioning can be such an all consuming endeavor that we can forget that other people have needs too. It's such an inherent part of the journey that we need to pro-actively work on countering it, for example by deliberately doing things and creating events which show how important our loved ones remain for us and also quite simply demonstrating that life for everyone can go on both during and after a transition.
Also, I came out to my (young adult) kids in summer 2011 and they were probably initially as shocked as yours were, especially my eldest who asked me to leave her some time to digest it all. I respected this and overall, took a very softly, softly approach to letting them discover the hidden me. For example, they didn't see me presenting female for almost 15 months after this.
End of the day, they have all come to accept the change very well and recently all three even contributed letters in support of my civil identity change. More importantly than anything, following this two year period of readjustment, we are proablably closer today than at any time since I left my first wife 14 years ago.
Time is a great healer and if you remain true to both yourself and those who count for you, the light will finally shine through!
Hugs
Donna
Thank you Donna, our words are always so helpful and reassuring.
It's so hard to balance ones own needs with those of ones family. For example, I saw my therapist yesterday and finally, definitlvely made the decision at least to start transition - a huge moment for me after decades of agonising about it.
Anyway, I'm going to have to take it gently because I don't want to come out in public until my son has left school in almost three years time. The one thing I want and need to do quickly is to laser the remaining dark areas of my beard before it all goes grey - which it's doing very fast! So I talked to my wife this morning. She accepted that I really didn't have any choice other than at least to start transition ... but then she said that I could not even have a single laser session as long as we're living under the same roof. She also says she doesn't want a divorce.
How on earth can I find a way through that?
Quote from: Carlita on October 10, 2013, 06:44:48 AMSo I talked to my wife this morning. She accepted that I really didn't have any choice other than at least to start transition ... but then she said that I could not even have a single laser session as long as we're living under the same roof. She also says she doesn't want a divorce.
How on earth can I find a way through that?
Carlita, your wife is afraid, pure and simple.
The good news is that can be cured, the bad news is that curing a fearful person
can result in violence, stress, years of sorrow.
The best you can do, but only you know where to stand, is to try to have her
understand you fully, using the (narrow) attention span which she offers to you.
Little by little, drop by drop, a dent will form in the stone. But you need patience.
:icon_workout:
Quote from: Marina mtf on October 10, 2013, 06:59:48 AM
Carlita, your wife is afraid, pure and simple.
The good news is that can be cured, the bad news is that curing a fearful person
can result in violence, stress, years of sorrow.
The best you can do, but only you know where to stand, is to try to have her
understand you fully, using the (narrow) attention span which she offers to you.
Little by little, drop by drop, a dent will form in the stone. But you need patience.
:icon_workout:
You're absolutely right. Of course you are. But it's so hard to be patient when one has waited decades to transition, finally decided to do it ... and then you have to wait for even more more months to go by.
I know that's selfish. But I'm sure any other women here who've struggled and struggled with the whole idea of transition - particularly those with wives and children - will know that when one finally knows that the time is right, all the fear and trepidation is mixed with a kind of giddy excitement ... as though ones soul has finally been set free. My soul, of course, is female. And she's longing to make herself seen and known to the world after so many years in hiding.
She's controlling you and you are letting her. If your need to stay married and be with her outweighs your need to transition, then you're going to allow her to control you. At some point you're going to have to make a choice. All of us have only so many years on this earth. You get to choose to live your life for you or for someone else. I'm not going to say either choice is right or wrong. You do what you feel you must do. But whatever choice you make, make it yourself.
Quote from: Carlita on October 10, 2013, 12:00:49 PM
You're absolutely right. Of course you are. But it's so hard to be patient when one has waited decades to transition, finally decided to do it ... and then you have to wait for even more more months to go by.
I know that's selfish. But I'm sure any other women here who've struggled and struggled with the whole idea of transition - particularly those with wives and children - will know that when one finally knows that the time is right, all the fear and trepidation is mixed with a kind of giddy excitement ... as though ones soul has finally been set free. My soul, of course, is female. And she's longing to make herself seen and known to the world after so many years in hiding.
I'm not a parent, nor will I ever be one most likely, but I think I can understand how she is feeling. She's reacting much like my mother did for the first 3 or 4 months she knew. She got stressed, angry with me, and then started beating herself up thinking it was something she had done.
In the end after stressing that this is something I have to do, I don't want it, I didn't ask for it. I'd live as a boy if I could. I simply cannot, and this MUST be done. Don't let her lock you in, you aren't selfish. I'd imagine you are at the very least in your mid 40's to 50's, that is MORE than enough time being selfless to your true feelings. MORE than enough of your life being put on hold. If you truly want things to go right, I'd say just go get the damn lasers. She can say all she wants, if she wants to leave then so be it. You need control of yourself. She says she doesn't want a divorce, if she's serious then she'll probably come back. I just really think you need control of your own life now.
Quote from: Carlita on October 10, 2013, 12:00:49 PM
You're absolutely right. Of course you are. But it's so hard to be patient when one has waited decades to transition, finally decided to do it ... and then you have to wait for even more more months to go by.
I know that's selfish. But I'm sure any other women here who've struggled and struggled with the whole idea of transition - particularly those with wives and children - will know that when one finally knows that the time is right, all the fear and trepidation is mixed with a kind of giddy excitement ... as though ones soul has finally been set free. My soul, of course, is female. And she's longing to make herself seen and known to the world after so many years in hiding.
I know about how hard it is to be told to stop, or to slow down, or to wait... especially if you're somewhere in the middle ages ;) (I'm 35). Unfortunately, I've been left to myself to set up my timeline because the family that could have cared to help (my parents, my wife) decided to openly hate me or attack me instead. Those things are getting better and I think my timeline is more than fair (I feel like I've said it a million times: AAs ASAP and E in May/June)... but it still hurts - them and me.
Quote from: Carlita on October 10, 2013, 12:00:49 PM
I know that's selfish. But I'm sure any other women here who've struggled and struggled with the whole idea of transition - particularly those with wives and children - will know that when one finally knows that the time is right, all the fear and trepidation is mixed with a kind of giddy excitement ...
Yes, I sympathize... I feel the same "giddy excitement".
In fact "patience" is NOT related to YOUR transition, but to expect change in HER.
I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly. You have what you have to do. Period.
If this is transition, go ahead. This is YOUR life.
The bad news is that others MAY NOT follow your excitement... and require YEARS to accept
(some may NEVER do that step, it's THEIR choice).
So... as other have said. do NOT let others control YOU, but... you cannot control others too... :laugh:
You can explain your reasons, your desires, your inner female feelings... but they are FREE to
remain in the state of fear, possibly forever. This is the REAL LIFE TEST for you (and me):
"are you willing to lose everything?"
Worst case CAN happen, and sometimes WILL happen. You may lose for ever wife and kids, but what's
on the other side? YOUR life, which is not infinite, by the way.
If we look at the "greatest" in history we see that most of them have faced similar though choices.
Budda (Siddharta) left home and family, Jesus idem, Gandhi faced jail and poverty, Joan d'Arc faced death.
Greatest things are not done without courage. Do not let fear control you. Face it, recognize it. But go on.
Quote from: Marina mtf on October 11, 2013, 12:58:10 AM
Yes, I sympathize... I feel the same "giddy excitement".
In fact "patience" is NOT related to YOUR transition, but to expect change in HER.
I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly. You have what you have to do. Period.
If this is transition, go ahead. This is YOUR life.
The bad news is that others MAY NOT follow your excitement... and require YEARS to accept
(some may NEVER do that step, it's THEIR choice).
So... as other have said. do NOT let others control YOU, but... you cannot control others too... :laugh:
You can explain your reasons, your desires, your inner female feelings... but they are FREE to
remain in the state of fear, possibly forever. This is the REAL LIFE TEST for you (and me):
"are you willing to lose everything?"
Worst case CAN happen, and sometimes WILL happen. You may lose for ever wife and kids, but what's
on the other side? YOUR life, which is not infinite, by the way.
If we look at the "greatest" in history we see that most of them have faced similar though choices.
Budda (Siddharta) left home and family, Jesus idem, Gandhi faced jail and poverty, Joan d'Arc faced death.
Greatest things are not done without courage. Do not let fear control you. Face it, recognize it. But go on.
Well, I'm not sure I'd dare compare myself to Jesus, Gandhi or Joan of Arc (!!), but I think your point is absolutely correct.
I was talking to my therapist about the whole issue of ones duty as a parent, against ones rights as an individual human being.
She said, 'You have the right to self-actualisation. You must be true to the person you are. But equally, your children have the right to react however they want to your decision.'
That struck me as both true and oddly comforting. I'm going to try to have the courage both to be the woman I am ... and to allow my children to accept or reject that woman, however agonising their decision may be.
Quote from: Carlita on October 11, 2013, 05:41:09 AM
She said, 'You have the right to self-actualisation. You must be true to the person you are. But equally, your children have the right to react however they want to your decision.'
This is a wonderful statement, but I think it leaves something out. You also have the right to influence your children positively toward your self-actualization. IMO, your wife does not have the right to influence them negatively - but that doesn't mean it won't happen. (Or, really, she has the right but should not do it because it's damaging to your children). I realize they're adults, but you're still their parent. Them being adult just means you have less ability to influence them, not less right... which means you need to do it smarter and empathically - there's less room for mistakes, and it might just not work at all.
Oh... and comparing ourselves to Joan of Arc isn't all that crazy. She was very likely FTM.
Quote from: Carlita on October 11, 2013, 05:41:09 AM
That struck me as both true and oddly comforting. I'm going to try to have the courage both to be the woman I am ... and to allow my children to accept or reject that woman, however agonising their decision may be.
Think in the other way: if you have taught love they will respond with love.
Your wife can be afraid and transmit her fears to them, but you can teach love, and love,
however, always wins, albeit not immediately.
Quote from: Marina mtf on October 11, 2013, 07:28:09 AM
Think in the other way: if you have taught love they will respond with love.
Your wife can be afraid and transmit her fears to them, but you can teach love, and love,
however, always wins, albeit not immediately.
I'm afraid to say that love does not appear to be winning at the moment. One of my daughters has cut off all contact with me.
I don't mind accepting the consequences of my own actions. But it's hard to accept the consequences of whatever was said about me by somebody else.
I'm sorry Carlita, I had to pop back in for one last post and then I'll fall silent. Your life is ahead and it's tied to the woman you love, but starting transition is like the touch of an angel. and I hope your wife can understand that.
It doesn't matter when we got married, what we told our wives before we tied the knot, or how accepting our spouses were of our "oddities". Unless your wife is a special case (I personally know one) when we tell our wives we plan to, or are beginning transition they are overcome by a wave of anger and fear. Whether they show it or not they're mad about your final decision, and not knowing or having a chance for input. And most feel these things should be one of the joint decisions our marriages guarantee. They may never accept the idea or fact that transition is our last resort to live, and that we've tried everything to avoid it.
So, none of our wives are the same, have similar outlooks on marriage, or view their husbands with equal eyes. We who are married must each make difficult choices when it comes to managing our marriage, comforting our wives, and coping with their fears. We come to Susan's for advice, and yet we can't actually follow it in our own particular situations, but we mind what we learn from the others here. I've always kept the advice from Susan's in mind, but none of it enters into what JoAnn and I discuss. She is unique, her reactions can't be predetermined, and she has made that entirely clear. I should know it by now, and I guess I do, but I still try to see the future.
I've posted about it before, but my wife and I finally sat down to discuss our marriage and the possible worst outcome. I honestly told her the decisions about our union are entirely hers. I said she should talk to whoever she wants and tell them whatever she wants, because I'll never stand in her way. She then knew the transition was going to progress, I would begin to change, and I was ready to accept her desire to stay together, separate, divorce, or find a way to live apart. I told her I'd love to stay with her, but can't beg by putting aside my life.
I probably won't open this thread again, so I wish you and your wife the best. And your children no doubt still love you as they always have. They're just angry, sad, confused, and fearful of you becoming the woman you must now be. And there's grief that they suddenly lost a father.
Hugs
Quote from: kathyk on October 11, 2013, 11:04:30 AM
I'm sorry Carlita, I had to pop back in for one last post and then I'll fall silent. Your life is ahead and it's tied to the woman you love, but starting transition is like the touch of an angel. and I hope your wife can understand that.
It doesn't matter when we got married, what we told our wives before we tied the knot, or how accepting our spouses were of our "oddities". Unless your wife is a special case (I personally know one) when we tell our wives we plan to, or are beginning transition they are overcome by a wave of anger and fear. Whether they show it or not they're mad about your final decision, and not knowing or having a chance for input. And most feel these things should be one of the joint decisions our marriages guarantee. They may never accept the idea or fact that transition is our last resort to live, and that we've tried everything to avoid it.
So, none of our wives are the same, have similar outlooks on marriage, or view their husbands with equal eyes. We who are married must each make difficult choices when it comes to managing our marriage, comforting our wives, and coping with their fears. We come to Susan's for advice, and yet we can't actually follow it in our own particular situations, but we mind what we learn from the others here. I've always kept the advice from Susan's in mind, but none of it enters into what JoAnn and I discuss. She is unique, her reactions can't be predetermined, and she has made that entirely clear. I should know it by now, and I guess I do, but I still try to see the future.
I've posted about it before, but my wife and I finally sat down to discuss our marriage and the possible worst outcome. I honestly told her the decisions about our union are entirely hers. I said she should talk to whoever she wants and tell them whatever she wants, because I'll never stand in her way. She then knew the transition was going to progress, I would begin to change, and I was ready to accept her desire to stay together, separate, divorce, or find a way to live apart. I told her I'd love to stay with her, but can't beg by putting aside my life.
I probably won't open this thread again, so I wish you and your wife the best. And your children no doubt still love you as they always have. They're just angry, sad, confused, and fearful of you becoming the woman you must now be. And there's grief that they suddenly lost a father.
Hugs
That was like a lovely verbal hug ... such kind, wise words, spoken with the knowledge that comes from direct personal experience. Thank you so much for sharing them with me.
In which case, the hell with it. I've spent years not transitioning because I didn't want to hurt my family. Turns out that was a waste of time. On Wednesday I'm seeing my therapist ... and I'm getting the girlie show on the road!
[/quote]
Congratulations! It's about time, isn't it that you start living an authentic life. BTW, my daughter Katy hasn't spoken to me in 159 days.
Quote from: DrZoey on October 11, 2013, 01:38:22 PM
Congratulations! It's about time, isn't it that you start living an authentic life. BTW, my daughter Katy hasn't spoken to me in 159 days.
It's a big part of my timeline. I consider it slow (my wife and her therapist don't seem to - but they're talking more about the superficial changes I've made). I was trying to balance self and family... all with zero inputs from anyone other than my therapist. I think it's fair and rapid enough for me to be happy while slow enough to allow people to adapt some. If I could I'd be on HRT now. At the same time, it's not fair for me (or the kids) to wait 10 years. IMO, unless you have other issues than being transgender, there's never (with exceptions, I'm sure) a good reason to wait more than a year to start the permanent changes. Experimenting and laser / electrolysis can come earlier - the former because it's needed and the latter because it takes so darned long.
I'm sure I'm over generalizing it. Sorry. It's just my own rationalization of my personal situation ♥.
So sorry to hear about Katy. I don't know if it's best, but I'd keep reaching out and hoping. All my love to you and your daughter ♥.
Quote from: DrZoey on October 11, 2013, 01:38:22 PM
BTW, my daughter Katy hasn't spoken to me in 159 days.
That's so sad ... One of the things that our culture cannot currently acknowledge is the degree to which wives and daughters need their husbands/fathers to be 'real man'. As my wife said, if I were anyone else's husband, she'd be very understanding, sympathetic and supportive. But because I'm HER man, she can't bear the idea of me not being male. Likewise, our daughters need us to be the men they've grown up with and they find it incredibly hard to see us 'betray' our masculinity ... or, at least, the masculinity they always assumed we possessed. And so they punish us.
Quote from: Carlita on October 12, 2013, 10:02:47 AMor, at least, the masculinity they always assumed we possessed. And so they punish us.
there is no real punishment going along. The only person you can punish is yourself. ALL evil
is in reality self-inflicted. Only love can go from one person to another, that may seem strange
but if we take into consideration that in reality there is only one thing, one spirit, one energy...
well, all the supposed evil does not really exist.
In the meantime we can try to make other people realize that they are really hurting themselves.
Just know that No one has a right to share personal information without consent and even more so after an agreement was made.I must be very honest with you and tell you that it is simply emotional abuse and nothing more.Regardless of ones feelings,frustrations or the like,abusing another is NOT from the heart.If you have further questions about emotional abuse then please look up *Signs of emotional abuse* and read the psychcentral web page.After doing so,PLEASE do whats best for you.Yes its true that most likely,this will test your childrens true unconditional love for you but aside from this,i have personally lived with such actions and such things,and even lost 2 kids but to different reasons.I wish you strength and confidence in yourself and no matter the outcome,i wish you a happy life!
Quote from: Chaos on October 13, 2013, 05:31:15 AM
Just know that No one has a right to share personal information without consent and even more so after an agreement was made.I must be very honest with you and tell you that it is simply emotional abuse and nothing more.Regardless of ones feelings,frustrations or the like,abusing another is NOT from the heart.If you have further questions about emotional abuse then please look up *Signs of emotional abuse* and read the psychcentral web page.After doing so,PLEASE do whats best for you.Yes its true that most likely,this will test your childrens true unconditional love for you but aside from this,i have personally lived with such actions and such things,and even lost 2 kids but to different reasons.I wish you strength and confidence in yourself and no matter the outcome,i wish you a happy life!
When things are new and fresh to our SOs or parents (up to the first year) they are going through the grief process. It's not a short process, but at some point they do have to learn to live through it, which means living with us. Up until that point some emotional abuse toward us is guaranteed (unless they're simply amazing individuals).
My wife did it. I dealt with it on my own, accused her of it in frustration, and eventually we fixed the problem (at least it appears so) partly with the help of her therapist during a couples session. I frankly don't know how things got better so much more quickly, based on her silence during the session, but maybe it was enough for her to hear my frank arguments and complaints with a third party in the room.
My parents have done it. This has been less frequent, more vicious, and with more of an out of control spiral. I recently wrote them a three page letter that probably went too far (I'm a good writer, but I don't always write to the correct audience). Still, maybe it was something they needed to hear. I talked about my deep history, what my plans are for transition, and how they and others have wronged me since coming out (the "emotional abuse" section). By the definitions, I probably could be considered the abuser with that letter - though it was filled with nothing but difficult truths. In reaction to it, the last time I talked to my mother was very helpful, painful but cathartic for both of us. Throughout the last few months my father has been a big, silent question mark. I have plans with them and my kids today, so I may find out more about how well they're taking my letter.
Emotional abuse is just not that easy an answer. In my opinion, emotional abuse is something that's non-reactionary, lasts a long period of time (many months to years), and is designed (consciously or subconsciously) to cause emotional reaction for personal gain or pleasure. Short term abuse due to the grieving process and a reaction to very emotionally charged information is not the same thing. That doesn't make it good or right, but it's something that can be addressed in a very different way than emotionally abusive relationships.
I know Carlita has been out for a while, but if the issue was never appropriately addressed or since her gender change is beginning to move forward, I think it follows the same sort of path that coming out for the first time would follow.
Quote from: kabit on October 13, 2013, 06:40:06 AM
When things are new and fresh to our SOs or parents (up to the first year) they are going through the grief process. It's not a short process, but at some point they do have to learn to live through it, which means living with us. Up until that point some emotional abuse toward us is guaranteed (unless they're simply amazing individuals).
My wife did it. I dealt with it on my own, accused her of it in frustration, and eventually we fixed the problem (at least it appears so) partly with the help of her therapist during a couples session. I frankly don't know how things got better so much more quickly, based on her silence during the session, but maybe it was enough for her to hear my frank arguments and complaints with a third party in the room.
My parents have done it. This has been less frequent, more vicious, and with more of an out of control spiral. I recently wrote them a three page letter that probably went too far (I'm a good writer, but I don't always write to the correct audience). Still, maybe it was something they needed to hear. I talked about my deep history, what my plans are for transition, and how they and others have wronged me since coming out (the "emotional abuse" section). By the definitions, I probably could be considered the abuser with that letter - though it was filled with nothing but difficult truths. In reaction to it, the last time I talked to my mother was very helpful, painful but cathartic for both of us. Throughout the last few months my father has been a big, silent question mark. I have plans with them and my kids today, so I may find out more about how well they're taking my letter.
Emotional abuse is just not that easy an answer. In my opinion, emotional abuse is something that's non-reactionary, lasts a long period of time (many months to years), and is designed (consciously or subconsciously) to cause emotional reaction for personal gain or pleasure. Short term abuse due to the grieving process and a reaction to very emotionally charged information is not the same thing. That doesn't make it good or right, but it's something that can be addressed in a very different way than emotionally abusive relationships.
I know Carlita has been out for a while, but if the issue was never appropriately addressed or since her gender change is beginning to move forward, I think it follows the same sort of path that coming out for the first time would follow.
Regardless,it was posted from a personal point of view and in no way required anyone to look at or follow.It was personal advice and encouragement to the OP.And emotional abuse is not always for personal gain or pleasure.As to say,they are purposly seeking to do harm for their own amusement.Its true that many do use it for that purpose but it is also used by those who do not realize they are doing it.It can become a chain and by people who have lived it most of their lives and know nothing else but just that (aka being abusive because they have dealt with it all their life from someone else).No matter which one a person falls under (knowing or unknowing),the site is true on its facts.This is why i suggested to do whats right for the OP.Because regardless,these are things that many suffer and some do not even realize it.It doesnt always make the abuser bad but also unknowing.Education and help is a huge key and when offering help,if its accepted or refused,is also a huge key.But if one realizes that it IS being done on purpose then i suggest a fast exit and allow healing,seek help.Otherwise,many things can be done to try and shift an unknowing persons mind set and help them realize.My post was supportive in all sense of the word.I lost my kids due to emotional abuse and torment.No other reason.One was turned against me by hate speech,lies and whatever worked to turn them against me (this was after he came of age.He was taken physically from my arms for no reason) and the other,was taken while i was being taken advantage of mentally (aka due to my birth defect,they used said in order to hide details in paper work) and both people had then tormented me for years about how i was a *bad parent* and it took me many years to finally realize that I am not a bad parent but one who suffered abuse.
Quote from: Chaos on October 13, 2013, 02:58:14 PM
Regardless,it was posted from a personal point of view and in no way required anyone to look at or follow.It was personal advice and encouragement to the OP.And emotional abuse is not always for personal gain or pleasure.As to say,they are purposly seeking to do harm for their own amusement.Its true that many do use it for that purpose but it is also used by those who do not realize they are doing it.It can become a chain and by people who have lived it most of their lives and know nothing else but just that (aka being abusive because they have dealt with it all their life from someone else).No matter which one a person falls under (knowing or unknowing),the site is true on its facts.This is why i suggested to do whats right for the OP.Because regardless,these are things that many suffer and some do not even realize it.It doesnt always make the abuser bad but also unknowing.Education and help is a huge key and when offering help,if its accepted or refused,is also a huge key.But if one realizes that it IS being done on purpose then i suggest a fast exit and allow healing,seek help.Otherwise,many things can be done to try and shift an unknowing persons mind set and help them realize.My post was supportive in all sense of the word.I lost my kids due to emotional abuse and torment.No other reason.One was turned against me by hate speech,lies and whatever worked to turn them against me and the other,was taken while i was being taken advantage of mentally (aka due to my birth defect,they used said in order to hide details in paper work) and both people had then tormented me for years about how i was a *bad parent* and it took me many years to finally realize that I am not a bad parent but one who suffered abuse.
I wasn't criticizing you nor do I entirely disagree with your advice. Just that it's usually more complicated when coming out, versus when in a steady state. I agree that it needs to be nipped in the bud. I do not agree that it should be treated in the same way as an emotionally abusive relationship. Yes, Carlita should do what's best for her and her family.
As I said, I feel as though I was emotionally abused after coming out. I don't think there are many who aren't emotionally abused during that stage - especially if they're married. At the same time, there is a process of grief that comes first and Carlita's wife may be just entering that, since Carlita is starting to transition now (as it sounds, after waiting some time back in her old male role). It is not fair to hold those people we love, who are in the beginning stages of grief over us, to the same standards as a long standing relationship where one spouse is abusing the other over long periods of time.
Nearly every relationship has periods of subconscious emotional abuse or perceived emotional abuse that don't last a long time. To reach an amicable resolution, the emotional abuse must be discussed, stopped, and normal life resumed. These are the "fights" of a normal relationship. If everyone were reasonable at all times and never expected more of someone than they were willing to give, these fights wouldn't happen.
Coming out is just a really, really big fight in a spousal relationship. Those families who cannot end it quickly (they have kids, for example) will have these problems to work out.
I realize you didn't give any particular advice on how to prevent or stop the abuse, but at the same time you appear to give that digital wag of the finger when the situation sounds more complex than that.
Quote from: kabit on October 13, 2013, 03:23:14 PM
I wasn't criticizing you nor do I entirely disagree with your advice. Just that it's usually more complicated when coming out, versus when in a steady state. I agree that it needs to be nipped in the bud. I do not agree that it should be treated in the same way as an emotionally abusive relationship. Yes, Carlita should do what's best for her and her family.
As I said, I feel as though I was emotionally abused after coming out. I don't think there are many who aren't emotionally abused during that stage - especially if they're married. At the same time, there is a process of grief that comes first and Carlita's wife may be just entering that, since Carlita is starting to transition now (as it sounds, after waiting some time back in her old male role). It is not fair to hold those people we love, who are in the beginning stages of grief over us, to the same standards as a long standing relationship where one spouse is abusing the other over long periods of time.
Nearly every relationship has periods of subconscious emotional abuse or perceived emotional abuse that don't last a long time. To reach an amicable resolution, the emotional abuse must be discussed, stopped, and normal life resumed. These are the "fights" of a normal relationship. If everyone were reasonable at all times and never expected more of someone than they were willing to give, these fights wouldn't happen.
Coming out is just a really, really big fight in a spousal relationship. Those families who cannot end it quickly (they have kids, for example) will have these problems to work out.
I realize you didn't give any particular advice on how to prevent or stop the abuse, but at the same time you appear to give that digital wag of the finger when the situation sounds more complex than that.
Then forgive me..I had no one to help during mine and had no choice but to find inner strength.When i came out to my ex bf,he didnt care one way or the other and thus,no fight or fuss.He didnt even act confused or distressed but then again,there was never any emotional connection there.I never assumed you were criticizing me.its just a habit of mine to explain my intentions and self.Again,Forgive my post.I never intended to wag a finger or anything else.
Quote from: Chaos on October 13, 2013, 03:30:20 PM
Then forgive me..I had no one to help during mine and had no choice but to find inner strength.When i came out to my ex bf,he didnt care one way or the other and thus,no fight or fuss.He didnt even act confused or distressed but then again,there was never any emotional connection there.I never assumed you were criticizing me.its just a habit of mine to explain my intentions and self.Again,Forgive my post.I never intended to wag a finger or anything else.
It's no problem! I think emotional abuse is a big problem for us in general. It was good to bring up...
I'm sorry I sounded critical - I tend to sound that way sometimes, but I don't mean it in that way. I'm just outspoken a lot of times (and becoming more so as I go on).
Quote from: kabit on October 13, 2013, 03:23:14 PM
As I said, I feel as though I was emotionally abused after coming out. I don't think there are many who aren't emotionally abused during that stage - especially if they're married. At the same time, there is a process of grief that comes first and Carlita's wife may be just entering that, since Carlita is starting to transition now (as it sounds, after waiting some time back in her old male role). It is not fair to hold those people we love, who are in the beginning stages of grief over us, to the same standards as a long standing relationship where one spouse is abusing the other over long periods of time.
This is so true. My wife is not an abusive person. She's a loving person who is having to come to terms with something totally out of the ordinary - as she says, it would have been so much easier if I'd just told her I was gay! She's frightened about the future for herself, her children and for me (because she simply cannot imagine me passing successfully as a woman). She's wondering if the past 30 years together have been a sham. She can't see any positive future for herself in any of this. She's desperately trying to find a way to prevent me transitioning, because she wants to keep her man - even though she accepts that 'he' isn't really around any more. And every so often it gets too much for her and she lashes out, or she does something inappropriate. That really hurts sometimes. But even in my darkest moments, I never look on it as abuse - in the sense of a conscious attempt to harm or intimidate or diminish another person ... and that's not because I'm a classic victim making excuses for an abuser. It's because it really isn't abuse. It's just pain ... and we're both trying very hard to take as much of that away as we can.