In my experience we are often treated with less dignity and respect by others.
I was referred to as Mr on my account with the hotel in Chonburi (my passport says female - and they had a copy of it)
I was referred to as "he" when I was at Yeson.
My medical certificate (from Yeson) calls me both a he and then a she in the same sentence.
These are examples of professional treatment.
I now choose to live without human companionship for most of the time preferring the love of my animals.
"I now choose to live without human companionship for most of the time preferring the love of my animals"
You and I are like peas in a pod! Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 30, 2013, 07:04:49 PMI now choose to live without human companionship for most of the time preferring the love of my animals.
I have neither :(
On topic, unfortunately I have to say yes, as we are evidently "not natural" so we don't belong.
I would say yes just based off of what I've seen in person from the "normal" side of the fence. I don't have enough experience on being out in the world as a transgender woman to be sure of that. So far I've been lucky the two times I've gone out into the world as myself.
As a FtM i would say yes,we are without a doubt treated differently.Its hard though ill admit when your around so many narrow minded people (using the wrong name and so on) to just *not* do it because of an image thats been projected for so long.Even i slipped a few times while speaking of someone i knew nothing about and those i was speaking to,were constantly disrespecting the person.So for *me* it was a mix of confusion and lack of personal knowlege on the person but i made sure to stay on track and continue to defend them.I think we all need to surround ourselves with people who know and love us,who dont think or feel like the rest of society.it makes life worth living and transition much easier.
yup
I would have to say no. It's not because of who we are. Strangers don't know who we are.
The people who treat us badly do so because of who they are. And because of a perceptual image in their own minds of a person they think they know. A perception of what something represents, and how to act because of that. That's not so much a reflection on who we are as it is on how they think, and how their lives colour their own perceptions.
My opinion, anyway.
My humble opinion Is we scare them because it makes them look into their own lives and feelings of who they are or might be inside. I find those that complain the most have secrets of their own and they over compensate by humiliating us to get the light off of them. They get others to look at us and not them.
In my personal experience I have been very fortunate to be treated as any other woman is. Yes I get some 'looks' but no one has been rude to me in my presence.
I have to admit that I would correct them if they did, not so much for my feelings, but for other men and woman who are or may be more sensitive than I. I feel I owe it to them to stand up for being a normal woman.
I do interact on a daily basis with many people at all walks of life.
I did at the beginning of this make the conscious decision that I would never be offended or insulted.
Recently there was an incident were I may have been blocked in taking up an appointment for personal reasons. I did firmly tell my superiors that if I was being blocked for issues to do with being transgender, than the full force of the law would be applied and that I had no fear of any publicity concerning me. I was appointed to the position within two days.
I have zero tolerance for intolerance.
Quote from: Cindy on October 31, 2013, 01:47:51 AM
In my personal experience I have been very fortunate to be treated as any other woman is. Yes I get some 'looks' but no one has been rude to me in my presence.
I have to admit that I would correct them if they did, not so much for my feelings, but for other men and woman who are or may be more sensitive than I. I feel I owe it to them to stand up for being a normal woman.
I do interact on a daily basis with many people at all walks of life.
I did at the beginning of this make the conscious decision that I would never be offended or insulted.
Recently there was an incident were I may have been blocked in taking up an appointment for personal reasons. I did firmly tell my superiors that if I was being blocked for issues to do with being transgender, than the full force of the law would be applied and that I had no fear of any publicity concerning me. I was appointed to the position within two days.
I have zero tolerance for intolerance.
I like your attitude Cindy. It's very similar to mine. I'm told I have a strong "social justice" streak.
Susan's makes me realize how many and varied the problems are and no one has the right to hurt or harm any of us. :)
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 31, 2013, 01:54:55 AM
I like your attitude Cindy. It's very similar to mine. I'm told I have a strong "social justice" streak.
Susan's makes me realize how many and varied the problems are and no one has the right to hurt or harm any of us. :)
It is the ANZAC spirit, those men and woman (and transgender soldiers because there would have been) fought for truth. They fought and died for us. We do the same.
Wonderful attitude! Good on you Cindy I agree 100%. And might I add the same sentiments apply to the elderly of our community who have paved the way for us! :)
I think it depends... In terms of SOME medical issues, you can get turned down for things if the insurance company stands their ground to not accept you for who you are.
In normal walks of life, I think as long as you pass, you will have no issues. If you somewhat pass/not really pass (subjective, of course), then there will be the people that don't notice and treat you no different; there will be the people that notice, but still have the decency to treat you like anyone else; and then there are the ones who notice and treat you like you're an alien that needs to get out/away.
Usually the 3rd group is made up of uneducated people or they like feeling like they're better than others just because.
The only section of society that I am exposed to that could treat me badly is the medical community. In all cases, except one, I have been treated like royalty after divulging. That one bad experience was by a surgeon that was sued by a previous patient, a transgender patient.
A lot of the people that treat us badly also treat others badly too, so maybe they have issues of their own.
I get treated well although I can tell a difference between the ones that know I'm trans and the ones that don't, but its not a big deal. It is a bit funny though when someone seems to go out of their way to acknowledge my being a woman though, more so than they would another cis woman.
Quote from: Sephirah on October 31, 2013, 01:00:38 AM
I would have to say no. It's not because of who we are. Strangers don't know who we are.
The people who treat us badly do so because of who they are. And because of a perceptual image in their own minds of a person they think they know. A perception of what something represents, and how to act because of that. That's not so much a reflection on who we are as it is on how they think, and how their lives colour their own perceptions.
My opinion, anyway.
This is Right! We cannot change who we are (many of us have tried). Society is responsible for how we're treated. Some people are understanding (but probably don't understand). Others are not understanding and treat us poorly. Both can be blamed partly on the poor representation of us in the media over the past 50+ years and partly based on the fact that society hates people who are different and exist in small groups.
We, as a group, can be blamed in part. Many of us hide who we are (whether presenting as our birth gender or our true gender). Many purposefully (and I've been guilty of this) don't stick up for others in our community because we're afraid of being called out for it. I respect that some people don't have the ability to stand up as an agent of change, but we do need more and more transgender people to help forward a change in society (and I think progress has been amazing thus far).
The greater blame does go to the society that looks down on us as freaks, though.
I was referring more to the professional people who treat us badly, as in my first post. If your a professional, a Dentist, a Doctor, anyone who accepts money from you for a service, don't you think they should treat us professionally?
I recall back when I had my surgery 40 years ago, it was common knowledge (where I live) that if you were a sex-change, or (if you weren't) they called you a ->-bleeped-<- then, if you wanted surgical procedures (i.e. breast augmentation) every penny had to be paid up front. There was a terrible stigma attached to being "trans" in the medical profession.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 31, 2013, 01:53:53 PM
If your a professional, a Dentist, a Doctor, anyone who accepts money from you for a service, don't you think they should treat us professionally?
I personally would switch doctors away from anyone who refused to gender me properly or treat me with respect.
Having recently gone part-time, I wouldn't necessarily say we're treated badly, but certainly treated differently. I know that I don't pass yet, so I've been taking a keen interest in reactions of shopkeepers etc that I interact with.
Some of them give me really quick service ( I assume in the hope that I'll go away quickly ).
Some are somehow ignorant of my presentation and refer to me with male pronouns... They get dirty looks from me.
Some are respectful and treat me with indifference.
Quote from: Sephirah on October 31, 2013, 01:00:38 AM
I would have to say no. It's not because of who we are. Strangers don't know who we are.
The people who treat us badly do so because of who they are. And because of a perceptual image in their own minds of a person they think they know.
Agreed. It's because of who they think trans people are (and really anyone different). I think it threatens their perception of who they are and their identity.
Professional communities are no exception. They're often the first to tolerate change and the last to accept it. Look at what some cis women go through in the workplace. It can be that much harder for a trans woman, in my opinion.
I have limited experience with anyone who's providing a service to me where they know or assume I'm trans.
I came out to my doctor. He had questions but was very, very good with it. I came out to my laser tech - she's great too.
I've also shopped for women's clothing. At worst, they just hurry you through at check out (which is usually a good thing). They can also be quite pleasant to me. Again... it's not something I have a ton of experience with, it's still somewhat difficult to do (the changing rooms hasn't happened yet), and I don't have a lot of extra money to go shopping a lot (as it is, it's time to cut way back - and time to look for thrift stores that might work out well).
I'm still appearing quite male, though. I'm very interested in how that changes -- whether they realize I'm a trans woman or just treat me like a woman. Most people seem to be respectful.
I'm in Rhode Island, USA.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 31, 2013, 01:53:53 PM
I was referring more to the professional people who treat us badly, as in my first post. If your a professional, a Dentist, a Doctor, anyone who accepts money from you for a service, don't you think they should treat us professionally?
I recall back when I had my surgery 40 years ago, it was common knowledge (where I live) that if you were a sex-change, or (if you weren't) they called you a ->-bleeped-<- then, if you wanted surgical procedures (i.e. breast augmentation) every penny had to be paid up front. There was a terrible stigma attached to being "trans" in the medical profession.
Absolutely they should be treating you with the utmost respect. I'm furious by your recent experiences. It's totally unacceptable. We don't do this out of a whim or to get a kick. This is our life. It's our core identity. The courage, the pain, the sacrifices made dismissed as if superfluous. I feel your indignity. It's obvious that if you get treated badly by a medical professional then we should seek one more enlightened. Should we not expect better from these educated medical professionals? But when it's a one-off treatment, one we have paid upfront and handsomely for, that's when we are most vulnerable and have less recourse. Then we can only let it be known, as you have done. I'm with you.
I have had only one really bad experience since coming out, that was there time last year when I lost my previous job just 3 months after doing the 2nd phase of my FFS. That however was a very bad experience, coming close to a "near death" experience. My transition had a lot to do with with it but was certainly not the only issue involved.
Otherwise it has been almost totally positive and I would have to give special mention to all the members of the medical profession i have had dealings with. In many cases they have gone out of their way to show kindness to me. This even extends to my FFS surgeon, with whom I have done 3 operations over the last three years. The relationship is so pleasant that we even went out to lunch together the day before the 3rd operation last week.
From what I read here, I'm inclined to believe that mixing among well educated people helps a lot. For example, I got some really beautiful letters from my friends in support of my civil identity change.
i also believe passability helps a lot. Going out and about with a trans woman who actually looks like a woman and doesn't attract any particular attention makes life far easier than trying to swim against the curent ie. presenting as a woman when people basically still see a guy.
It is certainly very unfair but, for me, it is simply one more of the realities of life we have to integrate into out thinking.
Last major comment, I will confirm all of the above when I have completed a successful transition at work. In theory everyone is on board but having already had one very nasty experience, I am not counting my chicken before they are hatched.
Hugs
Donna
P.S. I think we will have the reality check on the 12th of Nov when i return to work as the final touches to my FFS seem to have taken me well beyond the point of no return.
Quote from: Cherrie on October 31, 2013, 05:39:17 PM
I have been and still am considering having the same surgery at Yeson's. I'd seek one 'more enlightened' like Nicolette said, but I don't think there is another surgeon (yet) who does this surgery (the same way)? Being misgendered is not the only thing that happened to Kiwi4Eva at Yeson's.. If there is another surgeon offering the exact same surgery I'd definitely consider having the surgery done by it, lol.
Publicly (here) I have to say that the benefits of the surgery have to outweigh the negatives. You would only be there (no more than) 2 weeks and what happened to me may not happen to you. It's so worth the risk. You will never have to deal with them again...By the way, the X-Ray examiner asked me if there was a possibility I could be pregnant. (He was a lovely older man - Korean, but very respectful)
In saying that, someone else needs to make a stand with these service providers and let them know that your (very kind) phrase "misgendering" is just not OK and we (our community) will not tolerate it. From my experience, the $ is the major motivator in these Asian countries, and if they want our money, they should earn it.
As to my appearance...I always pass. In our country there are plenty of women (similar age) who are far bigger than me, so my height & size are not relevant. I don't have an Adam's Apple, I always wear feminine clothes, and I'm told I am very feminine.
Yeson is the only place to go...
Quote from: Donna E on October 31, 2013, 05:50:32 PM
From what I read here, I'm inclined to believe that mixing among well educated people helps a lot. For example, I got some really beautiful letters from my friends in support of my civil identity change.
i also believe passability helps a lot. Going out and about with a trans woman who actually looks like a woman and doesn't attract any particular attention makes life far easier than trying to swim against the curent ie. presenting as a woman when people basically still see a guy.
Donna you are so right. My friend has straight white bleached hair and a pair of unnaturally perfect large breasts which don't require harnessing. Her body is emaciated and her face is terrible. She does have lips though which I don't have. All those years of working as a dancer/stripper, smoking, heroin addiction, and living the high life have certainly taken a toll on her. And then there is the Hepatitis C. No one in the medical profession want to touch her. She made her choices, just as we all do. She can barely hear and has very bad eyesight. I am 9 years younger than her and will not be in her situation in 9 years time.
Donna, you remind me of a ballerina, and you always have.
Hugs,
Hope
Quote from: Sephirah on October 31, 2013, 01:00:38 AM
I would have to say no. It's not because of who we are. Strangers don't know who we are.
The people who treat us badly do so because of who they are. And because of a perceptual image in their own minds of a person they think they know. A perception of what something represents, and how to act because of that. That's not so much a reflection on who we are as it is on how they think, and how their lives colour their own perceptions.
My opinion, anyway.
You dialed right in on this one Sephirah. I have been "out" as Tessa and TG for most of this year, 2013. People make assumptions and try to keep those familiar boxes in a row but then people like you and I accept no substitutes for being genuinely ourselves.
So today is Halloween in the USA and I walked amongst scores of costumed kids and adults with my furry new hat with ears. THEY were in costume and I was dressing for real and THEY could not figure it out. What fun! And, of course, this is one day cross dressers of all kinds feel free to live it up in public. You go girls! Show us your fairy wings.............
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 31, 2013, 07:09:03 PM
Donna, you remind me of a ballerina, and you always have.
Hugs,
Hope
Thanks Eva, I find it quite amazing that you should say that as my wife has also told me several times that I look like a retired ballet dancer.Funny coincidence all the more so as for many, many years I was a rower which is really a very different world... :)
Hugs
Donna
I am blessed with great friends.
Some of them are very supportive, and one buddy goes out of his way to have fun with it.
I have no negative responses to use as illustrations.
I have only my own harsh criticism.
Now it is clear there are people out there that are a problem. The sorts wanting laws against us enjoying simple needs. They cite their kids having troubles with it and we all know it's bull->-bleeped-<- and they are the ones, not the kids having problems with it.
But I don't know much in the way of that sort of person.
Christmas will soon be here and I will get to maybe see some confirmation on a touchy subject. The inlaws well they ditched me over Thanksgiving for me wearing a damned wig. I mean a wig, and just because it was vaguely female in cut. And yes, the idea it was nothing, they didn't really notice me not attend especially when I always attend family gatherings there. Well this Christmas there will be no presence from me, and my mother has withdrawn any interest too. Upside, is mom gets a nice turkey dinner every single Christmas in the process, no sharing any more. The wife likely will go, I hope she understands, but, I don't need the inlaws that badly. I can always cook a good meal myself.
Aside from the inalws behaviour though, my life has no TGphobia in it as I see it. And I live in a small town too.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on November 01, 2013, 10:19:22 AM
Well this Christmas there will be no presence from me, and my mother has withdrawn any interest too. Upside, is mom gets a nice turkey dinner every single Christmas in the process, no sharing any more. The wife likely will go, I hope she understands, but, I don't need the inlaws that badly. I can always cook a good meal myself.
Aside from the inalws behaviour though, my life has no TGphobia in it as I see it. And I live in a small town too.
I think that is really sad...However, if it's any consolation, I will be spending my 55th Christmas alone. The alternative (for me) was a celebration around fake people. I look at it this way, I'd rather have a good christmas with someone special than a fake one with people because it was my only option.
Will I cry? Probably. But it's the only time of the year when I do get emotional. And after a cry I will emerge even stronger, I always do.
Hugs
Kiwi, I'd be happy to chat with you on Christmas day, and laugh at whatever.
I used to miss Christmas goodies and all the wonderful baked goods mom made when she was oh so much healthier. And her moving to Ottawa for a time, well it meant I didn't get to see much of her at all.
Now I have her all the time and I have told her, at Christmas, she bakes and she is just the brains to my arms :)
I think she is getting rather amused at being able to bake a lot more than she has in a long while and eat more dinners together than she did for a long while as for a long while everyone was always away at work or pursuing lives in their own fashion.
But me, well I am essentially a senior citizen regardless of chronological age. And I have the time to be with her plenty.
Granted some times I think she needs to seriously give herself a smack in the forehead hehe. She has asked of me some errands and it is like, 'you could have planned that better eh mom'.
I will not seriously miss out on anything. As you said, no one cries over losing something fake.
If my time all the times in the past, has been so easy for them to discard, then none of it was ever genuine either.
Ironic though considering Christmas is supposedly a Christian holiday, and the most overtly Christian (well I suppose thy see it that way), household, is such a farce of all that is supposedly Christian behaviour. I've never said anything I think Christ would ever have cause to fault me on eh.
I am going to say this. A lot trans people that I have met that claimed to be treated badly had a common trait. They presented to the world a scarred, nervous, timid, meek...... ect. ect.. person. Now think back to the school days. The kids that got picked on were what?
I will answer that one for ya if ya have not already. They were the prey! The predators can pick out prey so quick its not funny.
So I am not saying any one person that is treated badly is acting this way but a lot are. If there is one thing I learned in life and more so in transition you have to own it!! You have to put forth an image to the world you belong in the environment. By doing so you eliminate being a prey animal.
I have had people ask how one gains this confidence to be yourself. I can only say that it takes 100% effort and an understanding you really have no other choice but to do it. Many fail at gaining this confidence and the reason is nearly always they did not give a 100% effort.
A last tidbit if you have to ask yourself or other people for permission to be or do something your probably not at that point where your out of the prey category.
Thank You Lesley...lovely of you to be so kind. I'm not lonely...I have two of the most beautiful creatures in my life, Italian greyhounds, Connie (Mum & Zita daughter)
I've known people whose lives are just terrible and they have people all around them.
We have to learn how to find our own inner peace - and do the things that give us pleasure. My babies do that, and every time we venture out in public they are the centre of attention. So I actually get to talk with a lot of lovely people (not just you :))
And Katie, I have never been a victim. I am a survivor, but not a victim.
I've seen a lot of tragedy in my life, but not as much as some...
God (the Italian Greyhound God) bless you all.
We are kindred. We are here for each other and we must never lose sight of that.
Good point Katie.
In high school I was never pestered even though I was clearly a geek/nerd/hawk. Nothing says move along better than clear evidence this geek/nerd/hawk bites back like a pitbull :)
Bullies don't like anyone to fight back let alone do more damage than is being done to them.
When it comes to TG, I make it damned plain, better say whatever they are going to say when I have been long gone, because to my face is a very great error.
I walk with a cane, I am disabled, but the cane says it all. It's made from a sledge hammer handle. You have to ask yourself, what sort of person carries a cane made from a sledge hammer handle? Picking on me is simply dumb.
I am guilty of bias like the rest of humanity. We all are. The real problem is, does a person act like a target, a victim, and easy mark?
When I walk down the street, I often wonder how many move aside not because it is the polite thing to do, but because it is clear they are going around me, not the other way around. Yes I have heard, it is more feminine more lady like to seem small, to seem weak, to not do things to intimidate. I prefer thinking of the image of a female bear.
I love the female bear analogy.
I have been playing rollerderby for five years now. I have become pretty good at it. Being that is a full contact sport I learned real quick how to be a predator. Funny my first game I went out and got ran over by this gal (today we are friends and we laugh about that event). I went back to the bench and sat there almost crying.
My coach at that time came over and said something I will never forget "they are not your friends, kill them". I was lucky because that was my very first game and I snapped, I became a predator, many take longer to get to that point.
Moving forward to today. I am never mean to opponents, I never say mean things to them while on the track. But I can tell you one thing I am well known for starring with a wicked smile at opponents and getting in their heads. Guess that's what I love about playing the game, getting in the heads of the opponent and turning it into a mental game instead of physical.
So that's my short story of conquest and how one can learn to become a predator instead of prey. I have never fought for rights, I earned them the hard way. I have rarely ever been given a hard time. As a matter of fact all people are given a hard time at some point.
Hell the only time I ever was given a hard time was when I was paid to play with another team in another state. The opponent team had herd I was trans (when I started playing I was not as wise as I am today and I was open about it). Before the game the opponents raised hell and the referees called me to a conference. They asked me if I was trans, I said nope........ I showed my identification and guess what........ I played that game, and we tore up that opposing team. I did not back down from a challenge and I refused to play into their crap. I am legally female as much as any trans woman can become. I have no reason to cower to anyone...........
Nothing worth a crap in life comes easy! People have to earn their place in the world. As a matter of fact people that earn their rights are far more likely to value them than people that don't have to earn them.
Something to think about.
People treat you badly because you let them. If you have no confidence they'll perceive you in a way that makes them comfortable. However if you stand up strong, be who you are, and don't roll over because somebody wants to treat you without thought in the world, they'll respect you.
As far as misgendering, it happens. I misgender cis people sometimes because I'm used to ma'aming people in certain environments or sir'ing people in other environments. It happens, just shrug it off if it's like the first time from that person. However if they keep it up, look at them and say "Excuse me? I'm female!" If they argue with you, give them a "Based on what? How do you know?!" attitude.
I so greatly appreciate the strong and uncompromising voices here.
Yes, CONFIDENCE is key and up to us to exhibit. We can all have down days or hassles but getting back up and moving forward past the dumb and hurtful nonsense is part of the equation for us?
Living well is the best revenge. I would be sooo happy to walk down the street with a Roller Doll or girl with a sledge hammer cane envisioning a mama bear. Having hiked the back country of Glacier National Park grizzly bear mamas are no joke. If they are with a cub it is even more risk to annoy them! When they stand up to their 8 foot level it is enough to make us piss our pants.
Yes, we can choose to embody the stereotypes of demure and sensitive people and also to put on the BEAR when we need her.
Outside of family, most people who are aware of my situation have been nothing but amazing. Maybe it's the people I surround myself with or I just got lucky? Whatever the case is, I haven't faced much rejection from anyone that I've come out to besides family and one friend. I should note, however, that I'm still not fully out to most people and I'm not living full time yet. So, the hard parts still lie in front of me and who knows what strangers will say. As of now, I have been amazed at how okay and accepting some people have been when I told them. And there are many people who are aware of my transition that don't know I know. Those people have also been very sweet and nice. And even though strangers seem a little confused by my appearance and behavior at times, they are still very nice and treat me with respect. I'm hoping it stays that way.... well the nice part, I don't want to remain in the androgynous boy phase too long. So as of now my experience has been positive with people, but family remains a huge struggle for me. I guess I can only say yes and no to the question. It depends on the person.
Yes and it is worst being in a caribbean country where they absolutely detest anything they find in their words Gay! I'm very thankful i wasn't born in Jamaica doe.
I try my best to avoid the kind of self-imposed notion that I'm a victim, and strive to understand the people around me instead. Coming into terms with your surroundings, environment and other people is in my opinion the most significant and changing step one takes in his/her transition. I still live around one third of my life in male clothing and mode, and I personally don't get offended when people call me "mister" or "young man" during those times, since they can't possibly know my background and gender experience. Sure, being called those things is internally annoying, but over time you become relatively passive to it. And even then, if I told them, I'd expect people to be smart and educated enough to accept it and look past it and see a human being, not a "freak" or something like that. If those people can't come into terms with it, it's always their loss, never mine.
When I came out to my parents about six months ago, I was in tears and expected my mother to renounce me, but to my surprise she completely accepted and embraced it. The same applies to my father; they're both extremely neutral about it. They don't see the gender, they see the person and her qualities as a person. In a way, it's kind of a big gobsmacking to have all this acceptance and support come to you and wondering afterward as to why I didn't tell about it and seek help before. And then again, you have to learn how to live in the now, instead of looking back and regretting everything.
Holding on to this kind of mentality has personally helped me avert any long or short spurts of depression and isolation from the rest of the world that I used to do often in my teenage years.
Quote from: Amira on November 03, 2013, 04:11:51 AM
Yes and it is worst being in a caribbean country where they absolutely detest anything they find in their words Gay! I'm very thankful i wasn't born in Jamaica doe.
I'm in a Pan-African student group at my school and I've heard similar things from my Caribbean and Afro-Latino friends. I think it may be because their family's communities were so religious. Do you find that to be the case with your family?
Still, I find intolerance and acceptance can be found everywhere in varying degrees.
Quote from: Shaina on November 05, 2013, 04:12:40 PM
I'm in a Pan-African student group at my school and I've heard similar things from my Caribbean and Afro-Latino friends. I think it may be because their family's communities were so religious. Do you find that to be the case with your family?
Still, I find intolerance and acceptance can be found everywhere in varying degrees.
Yes religion is a part but another major factor is the Black culture, where masculinity is placed on a higher pedestal and anyone that does not match the expectation is a target. There is limited diversity here and it is very small and everyone knows each other or heard about someone. I just got in an argument with my parents for hiding my things. They act like they accept me and then it turned out to be a problem. I am literally all on my own with this transition it's frustrating but there is no turning back for me. My friend turned me away when i asked to live with him and I would help pay half the rent. I don't blame him I guess he would be shunned for being around me still. And most people over here listen to Jamaican music that is very homophobic and talks about killing Gays! I am not gay but that is all they see it as. So it is ingrained strongly in the culture. Not taking away from other people problems, I can only talk about my experience.
In a professional setting such as going for medical services, no. I'm fortunate that the place I go to serves the LGBT community as well as the hetro one. The staff have been put through a very good sensitivity training and have always been respectful of trans people. They have no problem using correct pronouns and preferred names. I've been going to the same place for over 10 yrs. They also conduct surveys to insure that the proper care and respect is given. I've had 3 different doctors since that time and they've always been helpful and respectful. I feel sorry for anyone who has to put up with disrespect in any setting especially a medical one. I feel it's our job to correct people where necessary. It may be a pain but if we don't who will??
Quote from: Janae on November 06, 2013, 02:14:44 AM
I It may be a pain but if we don't who will??
I have a friend who seems to enjoy "outing herself". She's 9 years older than me and has had a sex-change. I'm bigger than her (build wise) but I would look totally feminine compared to her and carry myself like a female (I wouldn't know how to be like a man) on the other hand she enjoys being "sprung".
I suppose we can't expect total acceptance if some of us have the desire to seek attention like this. It's self destructive and harms all of us who want to be accepted as females.
I can't see total acceptance occurring in my life-time, as long as we are all so different.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on November 06, 2013, 03:15:27 AM
I have a friend who seems to enjoy "outing herself". She's 9 years older than me and has had a sex-change. I'm bigger than her (build wise) but I would look totally feminine compared to her and carry myself like a female (I wouldn't know how to be like a man) on the other hand she enjoys being "sprung".
I suppose we can't expect total acceptance if some of us have the desire to seek attention like this. It's self destructive and harms all of us who want to be accepted as females.
I can't see total acceptance occurring in my life-time, as long as we are all so different.
I don't know the situation, but I can't see being stealth. I don't know if I'll be all that feminine looking or acting (more than I already am, that is) but I think it's unfair to expect someone to act a certain way just because people otherwise won't accept them.
I can't see total acceptance either (the LGB side don't have it yet). I don't think we're looking for total acceptance anytime soon. I would like to see the opportunity to be myself, with as many people knowing or figuring it out, without significant risk of harm (physical, occupational, or psychological).
I think we're a long way off from even having most of the population tolerate us, but by saying you must be stealth for that to happen is counterproductive. I will not have the option of being stealth at work, and it's a major fear that, while I can't lose my job because of it I'll be driven away, even though these people have had 8 years of seeing how well I work. That's what I want to have, what I deserve, and what I'll fight for. (I don't have an easy option of moving away - my family and children will likely remain here).
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on November 06, 2013, 03:15:27 AM
I have a friend who seems to enjoy "outing herself". She's 9 years older than me and has had a sex-change. I'm bigger than her (build wise) but I would look totally feminine compared to her and carry myself like a female (I wouldn't know how to be like a man) on the other hand she enjoys being "sprung".
I suppose we can't expect total acceptance if some of us have the desire to seek attention like this. It's self destructive and harms all of us who want to be accepted as females.
I can't see total acceptance occurring in my life-time, as long as we are all so different.
Yes, our very personal perspectives, mannerisms and pass-ability are so nicely unique and we can hopefully celebrate our individuality and diversity. Some of us are already public figures who are transitioning in public. That means I don't pass all the time and I likely do get "attention" for looking different or not having a totally feminine look. I am proud of who I am and would not ask any one to deny themselves or hide. In fact I see my "look" as an opportunity to encourage diversity, acceptance and tolerance for those who look different. There are plenty of ciswomen and transwomen who may appear or act kinda butch and that is part of this beautiful mosaic of human life. Total acceptance IMHO begins with accepting ourselves.
I recently had a friend of mine-a trans woman-start avoiding me. I thought I'd done something to offend her but she says I'm "too cis" and that she doesn't pass while she's with me.
I know that's not the same as a friend outting themselves around you but sometimes people don't realize how they make friends feel by being who they are. :icon_sadblinky:
Quote from: Cindy on October 31, 2013, 02:21:00 AM
It is the ANZAC spirit, those men and woman (and transgender soldiers because there would have been) fought for truth. They fought and died for us. We do the same.
I think I can learn to love this site
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 31, 2013, 01:54:55 AM
I like your attitude Cindy. It's very similar to mine. I'm told I have a strong "social justice" streak.
Susan's makes me realize how many and varied the problems are and no one has the right to hurt or harm any of us. :)
I I think personally these two woman are totally what I'd like to be like . It's so nice to find a place like Susan's to discuss issues that affect us.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 30, 2013, 07:04:49 PM
In my experience we are often treated with less dignity and respect by others.
I was referred to as Mr on my account with the hotel in Chonburi (my passport says female - and they had a copy of it)
I was referred to as "he" when I was at Yeson.
My medical certificate (from Yeson) calls me both a he and then a she in the same sentence.
These are examples of professional treatment.
I now choose to live without human companionship for most of the time preferring the love of my animals.
yea, this pretty much sums it up for me too
Quote from: Chaos on October 30, 2013, 07:51:20 PM
As a FtM i would say yes,we are without a doubt treated differently.Its hard though ill admit when your around so many narrow minded people (using the wrong name and so on) to just *not* do it because of an image thats been projected for so long.Even i slipped a few times while speaking of someone i knew nothing about and those i was speaking to,were constantly disrespecting the person.So for *me* it was a mix of confusion and lack of personal knowlege on the person but i made sure to stay on track and continue to defend them.I think we all need to surround ourselves with people who know and love us,who dont think or feel like the rest of society.it makes life worth living and transition much easier.
sounds like a good idea
Quote from: stephaniec on December 23, 2013, 01:48:44 PM
sounds like a good idea
I also must say I've gone out quite a lot long before transitioning and never encountered any thing in the slightest that was negative . There are a whole lot of good people out there.
Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 30, 2013, 07:04:49 PM
In my experience we are often treated with less dignity and respect by others.
I was referred to as Mr on my account with the hotel in Chonburi (my passport says female - and they had a copy of it)
I was referred to as "he" when I was at Yeson.
My medical certificate (from Yeson) calls me both a he and then a she in the same sentence.
These are examples of professional treatment.
I now choose to live without human companionship for most of the time preferring the love of my animals.
Kia Ora K,
This might help to explain the confusion...It's possible its a common occurrence when translating from Korean into English.
http://www.surasplace.com/index.php/culture/158-no-he-she-in-korean.html
Metta Zenda :)
You have to ask? This is surely true, there is no ''think'' about it. See my post, here, which is basically saying just this. We are not human, apparently, just freaks: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,156415.0.html
A few things that have been said in this thread ring true.
If someone treats you poorly because you are trans, that speaks volumes about them. It does not however, mean they are a bad person. They simply may not know the pronoun rules. I remember when I first joined this community, I accidentally stepped on a bunch of verbal land mines, and I am trans.
Also, if you are convinced in who you are, people tend to buy it. If you are not convinced, people can tell. This goes for being cis, trans or stealth. This is such a simple concept and yet complicated to explain without using an analogy or two. Here goes...
Suspension of disbelief: When you watch television or a movie, you know it is not real, but you tell yourself that you are going to put that aside and go along for the ride. The more convincing your entertainment is, the easier it is to keep your disbelief suspended. Often enough bad writing or acting gets in the way and takes the audience out, it can ruin the experience. Sometimes, the experience is so compelling, you can overlook the flaws. It took me many years to realize the bit players in the Star Wars Trilogy for the most part, really sucked. When I first saw the films, the experience suspended my disbelief, later I was more able to see the faults.
Suspension of disbelief works the opposite way, as have been described earlier in this thread. You can choose to be the Mamma Bear or the Predator. If you convince yourself, others will follow with a remarkable success rate. Again, this works for cis, trans, stealth and anything in between.
A timid person is far more likely to be victimized. This is a sad fact of animal nature. The sick and the weak get eaten.
When I moved to NYC, for the first week, I couldn't walk a block without someone asking me for change or telling me a sob story so I would pay their bus fare back to Long Island... etc. I was a magnet. I asked myself what I was doing wrong. Well, for starters I was dressed nice but not too nice, and I was gawking at every landmark I stumbled across. My behavior screamed gullible tourist. I started dressing down and walking with a purpose, using my periphery to observe the world around me. Within a month, I could go anywhere with 95% fewer interruptions, and when I was interrupted it was often people trying to sell me weed or other drugs, which was annoying but a sign I was fitting in. People saw me as a New Yorker because I presented them with a convincing New Yorker.
So, when I said earlier in my post, how people react to you says a lot about them, it can also say something about you. A trans woman built like a trucker will get better treatment than a cis woman overdressed like a child's Barbie doll, if they own their presentation and make no apologies. Humans are natural followers. We are very much pack animals. If you wish to be treated a certain way, you really have to lead people into treating you that way. People, even the phobic, will fall in line without noticing. Leadership is neither a masculine nor feminine trait. Every strong man had a mother. You can lead by being feminine. You can lead by being trans.
Of course, what I am saying is not fool proof. Misgendering can happen to anyone. Poor treatment can too. Trans people are particularly vulnerable because they are prone to convincing themselves that people will see them as lesser, and that is a self fulfilling prophesy.
Fashion is a touchy subject but I am going to address it. Dress carefully ladies, especially at first, if you have self image issues... and who doesn't? Use your comfort level as a barometer. Something that feels fantastic to wear in private or amongst friends, may actually leave you feeling extra vulnerable in public. Take the hint. If you feel more vulnerable you are more vulnerable. Use clothing like a bulletproof vest. Let it enhance your strengths. Take baby steps. If you go off the deep end at first and it makes you feel vulnerable, you may begin to get used to feeling vulnerable, it will become your new comfort zone. Between the weakened muscles and the improved emotional range, MTFs are already nicely vulnerable in a way most of us prefer. Dressing in a way that enhances that vulnerability further can be dangerous for newbies, especially when alone. Notice cis women. Some cis women can wear the most daring thing and it strengthens them... others are clearly uncomfortable. It isn't just what you wear it is how you wear it. Do you own it? Does it make you feel more like yourself in public?
Really, especially for the newbies, be on the lookout for ensembles, make up, styles that make you feel invincible. We all just want people to treat us like who we are, but our behavior and display provide cues to others as to how we will accept being treated. It takes practice to learn how to take advantage of the good aspects of feminine vulnerability while also using it as a superpower.
I may be new to transition but this is something I know a great deal about.
I didn't mean to rant for so long. I mean no offense to anyone who may have differing opinions. Your opinions are at least as valid as mine.
Quote from: Tori on December 25, 2013, 07:23:08 PM
A few things that have been said in this thread ring true.
If someone treats you poorly because you are trans, that speaks volumes about them. It does not however, mean they are a bad person. They simply may not know the pronoun rules. I remember when I first joined this community, I accidentally stepped on a bunch of verbal land mines, and I am trans.
Also, if you are convinced in who you are, people tend to buy it. If you are not convinced, people can tell. This goes for being cis, trans or stealth. This is such a simple concept and yet complicated to explain without using an analogy or two. Here goes...
Suspension of disbelief: When you watch television or a movie, you know it is not real, but you tell yourself that you are going to put that aside and go along for the ride. The more convincing your entertainment is, the easier it is to keep your disbelief suspended. Often enough bad writing or acting gets in the way and takes the audience out, it can ruin the experience. Sometimes, the experience is so compelling, you can overlook the flaws. It took me many years to realize the bit players in the Star Wars Trilogy for the most part, really sucked. When I first saw the films, the experience suspended my disbelief, later I was more able to see the faults.
Suspension of disbelief works the opposite way, as have been described earlier in this thread. You can choose to be the Mamma Bear or the Predator. If you convince yourself, others will follow with a remarkable success rate. Again, this works for cis, trans, stealth and anything in between.
A timid person is far more likely to be victimized. This is a sad fact of animal nature. The sick and the weak get eaten.
When I moved to NYC, for the first week, I couldn't walk a block without someone asking me for change or telling me a sob story so I would pay their bus fare back to Long Island... etc. I was a magnet. I asked myself what I was doing wrong. Well, for starters I was dressed nice but not too nice, and I was gawking at every landmark I stumbled across. My behavior screamed gullible tourist. I started dressing down and walking with a purpose, using my periphery to observe the world around me. Within a month, I could go anywhere with 95% fewer interruptions, and when I was interrupted it was often people trying to sell me weed or other drugs, which was annoying but a sign I was fitting in. People saw me as a New Yorker because I presented them with a convincing New Yorker.
So, when I said earlier in my post, how people react to you says a lot about them, it can also say something about you. A trans woman built like a trucker will get better treatment than a cis woman overdressed like a child's Barbie doll, if they own their presentation and make no apologies. Humans are natural followers. We are very much pack animals. If you wish to be treated a certain way, you really have to lead people into treating you that way. People, even the phobic, will fall in line without noticing. Leadership is neither a masculine nor feminine trait. Every strong man had a mother. You can lead by being feminine. You can lead by being trans.
Of course, what I am saying is not fool proof. Misgendering can happen to anyone. Poor treatment can too. Trans people are particularly vulnerable because they are prone to convincing themselves that people will see them as lesser, and that is a self fulfilling prophesy.
Fashion is a touchy subject but I am going to address it. Dress carefully ladies, especially at first, if you have self image issues... and who doesn't? Use your comfort level as a barometer. Something that feels fantastic to wear in private or amongst friends, may actually leave you feeling extra vulnerable in public. Take the hint. If you feel more vulnerable you are more vulnerable. Use clothing like a bulletproof vest. Let it enhance your strengths. Take baby steps. If you go off the deep end at first and it makes you feel vulnerable, you may begin to get used to feeling vulnerable, it will become your new comfort zone. Between the weakened muscles and the improved emotional range, MTFs are already nicely vulnerable in a way most of us prefer. Dressing in a way that enhances that vulnerability further can be dangerous for newbies, especially when alone. Notice cis women. Some cis women can wear the most daring thing and it strengthens them... others are clearly uncomfortable. It isn't just what you wear it is how you wear it. Do you own it? Does it make you feel more like yourself in public?
Really, especially for the newbies, be on the lookout for ensembles, make up, styles that make you feel invincible. We all just want people to treat us like who we are, but our behavior and display provide cues to others as to how we will accept being treated. It takes practice to learn how to take advantage of the good aspects of feminine vulnerability while also using it as a superpower.
I may be new to transition but this is something I know a great deal about.
I didn't mean to rant for so long. I mean no offense to anyone who may have differing opinions. Your opinions are at least as valid as mine.
It sounds like you have a very good understanding of things
Thanks. I was on a roll yesterday with my writing.
We have a saying in the recovery community: What you think of me is none of my business. Over ten years ago, when almost all the world thought of me as a "man in a dress" I was waiting in line at Costco to order a hotdog---back then I still ate hot dogs---when the hot dog lady said, "And what would YOU like, ma'am?" I almost fainted when I realized that she was, indeed, speaking to me. I could have kissed her!
But she was the exception. People either patronized me or were downright mean, like honking their horns at me and yelling nasty things or, with much intent, calling me sir. I did not realize that what they thought about me had nothing to do with me but everything to do about them. Most women actually treated me nice, going out of their way, many times to tell me how pretty i was, but this was patronizing as well. But at least iot was well-intentioned, the treatment from men who had issues with their sexuality was a different story entirely. Really, I do not know how I survived. Had I owned a gun, I would now be on Death Row or serving a life sentence for murder. The only hope I had was that the surgeries I was saving up my money for would make the world see me as I am. A woman. But it was a long and arduous path. I did not really believe it at the time but I kept telling myself that what Nietzsche wrote was true "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." I found out it was true.
Well anyway, the surgeries worked but I am still dealing with all the pain I endured through the struggle of transitioning. And now, instead of dealing with people honking their horns and yelling at me, I deal with mundane things like getting a B+ on a paper. (To me, anything less than an A minus is a failure) I always thought if the world ever accepted me as i am, I would be happy with that. And to an extent it is true, sometimes I look up at the Campanile Tower and want to pinch myself, "I am here at Cal with a 3.7 GPA in my true gender, I am being encouraged to take a job teaching or tutoring, can this really be happening?" But then on other days, it is like I take all this for granted and am pissed off because I don't have a bigger apartment and financial security. Past struggles just become replaced with future ones. Then again, I tell myself if I had live in a differnt time, I would have been burned at the stake for who I am and I feel grateful again. Although we would all like to have been dealt a full house, very few of us get even a couple of Jacks. We have to learn to play with the hand we are dealt.
Quote from: Tori on December 26, 2013, 03:44:20 PM
Thanks. I was on a roll yesterday with my writing.
Those were some very nice insights.
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on December 27, 2013, 01:03:43 AM
We have a saying in the recovery community: What you think of me is none of my business. Over ten years ago, when almost all the world thought of me as a "man in a dress" I was waiting in line at Costco to order a hotdog---back then I still ate hot dogs---when the hot dog lady said, "And what would YOU like, ma'am?" I almost fainted when I realized that she was, indeed, speaking to me. I could have kissed her!
But she was the exception. People either patronized me or were downright mean, like honking their horns at me and yelling nasty things or, with much intent, calling me sir. I did not realize that what they thought about me had nothing to do with me but everything to do about them. Most women actually treated me nice, going out of their way, many times to tell me how pretty i was, but this was patronizing as well. But at least iot was well-intentioned, the treatment from men who had issues with their sexuality was a different story entirely. Really, I do not know how I survived. Had I owned a gun, I would now be on Death Row or serving a life sentence for murder. The only hope I had was that the surgeries I was saving up my money for would make the world see me as I am. A woman. But it was a long and arduous path. I did not really believe it at the time but I kept telling myself that what Nietzsche wrote was true "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." I found out it was true.
Well anyway, the surgeries worked but I am still dealing with all the pain I endured through the struggle of transitioning. And now, instead of dealing with people honking their horns and yelling at me, I deal with mundane things like getting a B+ on a paper. (To me, anything less than an A minus is a failure) I always thought if the world ever accepted me as i am, I would be happy with that. And to an extent it is true, sometimes I look up at the Campanile Tower and want to pinch myself, "I am here at Cal with a 3.7 GPA in my true gender, I am being encouraged to take a job teaching or tutoring, can this really be happening?" But then on other days, it is like I take all this for granted and am pissed off because I don't have a bigger apartment and financial security. Past struggles just become replaced with future ones. Then again, I tell myself if I had live in a differnt time, I would have been burned at the stake for who I am and I feel grateful again. Although we would all like to have been dealt a full house, very few of us get even a couple of Jacks. We have to learn to play with the hand we are dealt.
Your story is helps educate about reality. I'm early in transition all people seem to do to me is either smile or look puzzled. The girls smile and the guys look puzzled. I'm glad your living your dream.