In light of my ill-conceived comment on an old thread a few days ago, I have to explain myself.
From the beginning of my transition process, I've overreacted and taken personally the existence of people who define themselves as men who don't, and never will, have penises/do, and always will, have vaginas. I should not be personally upset by this because it's not my business, but it just seems...alienating to me. This is because don't think of "gender" the same way. I don't understand the concept of gender at all. I don't have a "gender." I have a sense of what my physical sex should be, and a set of personal preferences/traits that have nothing to to with what I sense should be part of my body. For my entire life, I have understood "male" and "female" to be nothing more than convenient words to describe people with certain sets of physical characteristics, which have nothing to do with clothing, hairstyle, behavior or interests. I over-react to the whole "genitals do not equal gender" idea SOLELY because it is invalidating to me. If I did not feel that there should be a penis/scrotum-shaped thing/no vagina down there, I would never have transitioned in the first place, and I would not identify as male. I may have gotten a hysterectomy and a breast reduction, but I would still have identified as female because I do not see gender--mine or anyone else's--as independent from body parts.
Pretty much the only thing that helps, when I'm getting insecure in my masculinity, is to close my eyes and sense my neural map, and the phantom penis it includes. Doing stupid macho manly things is all fine and good, but my so-called masculinity is a matter of luck and has nothing to do with whether I am male or female. I could be a masculine woman, if there wasn't a strong sense of "I am a person that is set up to have a penis and the body type that usually accompanies the presence of a penis and absence of a vagina and et cetera.")
So that's the whole "being male" part. That I have no problem with. I am fortunate and overjoyed that I'm rid of most of the unwanted, incongruent appendages which used to be on/in me. Not all of them, but it's a matter of time. After the final surgery, even after the surgeries I have had, I would never in a million years want to go back and I don't regret the physical part.
The social part, though? Seriously sucks. A lot of the time. The part that's not about being male, but about being a man. I think the entire set of categories is incredibly stupid. Re-socialization is the hardest part, but I can't avoid it, because I do not have a choice. Even though I disagree with it, I am male, so that means I have to at least learn to navigate the role of "a man" in society, even if I end up defying much of it. Being "a man" sucks about as much as being "a woman" did. And I can't deny that anymore. I'm not happy trying to live as genderqueer, either. I did try that. It didn't work. It just felt worse than either binary role, much of which was due to the amount of mental effort required on my part, and opening myself up for harassment on society's part--and I am already not a person who easily fits in to society in any way whatsoever.
Does anyone talk about how much it can suck to be male socially, without resorting to dodges such as "well if you're not happy than you don't have to live as/identify as male"? Is this why most trans men are even doing this, because they prefer the male social role and don't care as much about bodily configuration, that roles and presentation and pronouns are enough to offset the bodily concerns?
So if it's okay to be a man with a vagina, is it okay to be a person-with-a-penis who sees himself as male for that sole fact alone, and doesn't like being socially "a man" very much/doesn't understand social gender at all or have a social gender, but wants to learn to come to terms with the social standards that a person with his body type is typically held to?
I.e, the mentality of: "I don't have to like it, but I do have to learn how to deal with it--or how to deal with the consequences for breaking it." I wish I could get resources for that which don't end up being either invalidating, inconclusive/vague or both.
Quote from: Xren on December 24, 2013, 01:42:17 PM
In light of my ill-conceived comment on an old thread a few days ago, I have to explain myself.
From the beginning of my transition process, I've overreacted and taken personally the existence of people who define themselves as men who don't, and never will, have penises/do, and always will, have vaginas. I should not be personally upset by this because it's not my business, but it just seems...alienating to me. This is because don't think of "gender" the same way. I don't understand the concept of gender at all. I don't have a "gender." I have a sense of what my physical sex should be, and a set of personal preferences/traits that have nothing to to with what I sense should be part of my body. For my entire life, I have understood "male" and "female" to be nothing more than convenient words to describe people with certain sets of physical characteristics, which have nothing to do with clothing, hairstyle, behavior or interests. I over-react to the whole "genitals do not equal gender" idea SOLELY because it is invalidating to me. If I did not feel that there should be a penis/scrotum-shaped thing/no vagina down there, I would never have transitioned in the first place, and I would not identify as male. I may have gotten a hysterectomy and a breast reduction, but I would still have identified as female because I do not see gender--mine or anyone else's--as independent from body parts.
A lot of the time trans men don't
want to continue living their life without a penis, but they have no other option, either because neither of the current surgical options appeal to them, there are medical reasons why they can't, or because they simply cannot afford to have the surgery. This doesn't mean that they don't feel as if there should be a "penis/scrotum-shaped thing/no vagina down there". Personally, I don't know if I would never get any form of lower surgery, just because there are a lot of risks and I don't know if the results would satisfy me. That doesn't mean that I don't want a penis, or that I don't have a phantom penis. I'm aware of it right now.
I don't know how I can describe gender if you don't know what it is, but I feel it's closer to what you're describing than you think. Or maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick, I don't know. I see gender as different from physical sex because my physical sex tells me that I'm female, and those parts of my body which are female secondary sex characteristics are the parts which I loath. The genitals =/= gender thing is a way of saying that someone's genitals cannot speak for what the gender of a person is, otherwise all pre-surgery trans people would by default be their birth sex, which isn't the case because they identify as, and feel like they should have the physicality of, the opposite sex to their birth sex.
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Pretty much the only thing that helps, when I'm getting insecure in my masculinity, is to close my eyes and sense my neural map, and the phantom penis it includes. Doing stupid macho manly things is all fine and good, but my so-called masculinity is a matter of luck and has nothing to do with whether I am male or female. I could be a masculine woman, if there wasn't a strong sense of "I am a person that is set up to have a penis and the body type that usually accompanies the presence of a penis and absence of a vagina and et cetera.")
So that's the whole "being male" part. That I have no problem with. I am fortunate and overjoyed that I'm rid of most of the unwanted, incongruent appendages which used to be on/in me. Not all of them, but it's a matter of time. After the final surgery, even after the surgeries I have had, I would never in a million years want to go back and I don't regret the physical part.
That's pretty much what we're saying. You don't have to act like a man to be a man, and you don't have to be a man to act like a man. Having dysphoria and the innate sense that your body is incorrect is what makes you trans, not your behaviour. Yes, behaviour often comes along with it, but I don't know how much of that is learned, and how much of that is innate. Personally I think a lot of it is innate, but I know there are plenty of people who don't and it could just be another part of my having a strong personality and refusing to change for anyone or anything.
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The social part, though? Seriously sucks. A lot of the time. The part that's not about being male, but about being a man. I think the entire set of categories is incredibly stupid. Re-socialization is the hardest part, but I can't avoid it, because I do not have a choice. Even though I disagree with it, I am male, so that means I have to at least learn to navigate the role of "a man" in society, even if I end up defying much of it. Being "a man" sucks about as much as being "a woman" did. And I can't deny that anymore. I'm not happy trying to live as genderqueer, either. I did try that. It didn't work. It just felt worse than either binary role, much of which was due to the amount of mental effort required on my part, and opening myself up for harassment on society's part--and I am already not a person who easily fits in to society in any way whatsoever.
I don't know what your problem is with male socialisation, or being "a man". I never really had to learn to be a man in society, I just am, to the point where people who know me by my birthname and soley as a female subconsciously treat me as just another man. They don't know they're doing it, if they did there would be trouble, but they just do. I've had people jokingly say "yes sir" instead of "yes ma'am", my own transphobic grandfather treats me like a grandson and calls me "mate", one of my friends admitted she guessed from my mannerisms that I was male even though she knows I'm physically not. I don't know how to learn to socialise as a gender, because I just socialise as myself, and that happens to be male.
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Does anyone talk about how much it can suck to be male socially, without resorting to dodges such as "well if you're not happy than you don't have to live as/identify as male"? Is this why most trans men are even doing this, because they prefer the male social role and don't care as much about bodily configuration, that roles and presentation and pronouns are enough to offset the bodily concerns?
I find this slightly offensive in some way, but I can't put my finger on what it is. Again, I don't know what parts of male socialisation you don't like, it could be anything from women mistrusting you when you're walking down the road at 2am, or it could be the lack of touchy-feely hugs, I don't know. I do know that from what I've heard from other people, and personally, I'm not planning on transitioning just for the social stuff. The social stuff doesn't make me cry in the shower if I've got to have one with the lights on, or make me so angry I want to throw my entire body through brick wall because punching it wouldn't do enough. The social stuff, getting misgendered etc, just hurts because it's a kick in the face reminding me of what I don't have, and what I'm lumbered with physically. Maybe other's are different, but that's me.
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So if it's okay to be a man with a vagina, is it okay to be a person-with-a-penis who sees himself as male for that sole fact alone, and doesn't like being socially "a man" very much/doesn't understand social gender at all or have a social gender, but wants to learn to come to terms with the social standards that a person with his body type is typically held to?
I.e, the mentality of: "I don't have to like it, but I do have to learn how to deal with it--or how to deal with the consequences for breaking it." I wish I could get resources for that which don't end up being either invalidating, inconclusive/vague or both.
There are plenty of people who can't get the grasp of social skills. It doesn't mean that they are being seen as the wrong gender. I think as long as you're comfortable with your body, or aiming towards being comfortable in your own body then you're doing the right thing for yourself, and f what everyone else says.
Not sure If I can explain gender if your not sure what it is.
sex is based on body part, biology, production and so on, while gender is more of a culture based word on what we consider men and women for ourself or socially around us.
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Speaking of being male in sociaty I kinda understand. theres many thing in male sociaty I dont like, ex how many guys cant show love to each other without it consider gay.
I think theres a time for everyone where you have to figure if you want to take up the fight or not,
Yes it most easy just to fit in but it also kinda sucks not being true to yourself and I dont feel it makes you neither grether nor more happy, so I feel if theres part you really hate then you should cut ties with these or at least give it a efford
it may not make you the typical man but so what.
I think all guys have this in someway, femenine guys who try being masculine for the sociaty, or what if you are an forregian who moves to another country, how much should you adapt and how much can you hold on too.
I belive those part which you really feel agenst or which you really love are the part who are important, Ex, just because im a guy dosent mean I want to join conversation on how bad women are. but its something you have to figure out yourself.
I have strechmarks on my hips, legs and cheast, but I never heard a guy comment on it.
Sure depends how bad they are but mine fade over time so I dont think people would notice so much and even if they do I just say its caused by swelling/gaining weight or something.
I feel male because I feel male... It's kind of hard to explain for me, I just feel deep down that I'm male and I feel better when presenting physically that way and when I'm adressed as such. That said I don't fit the stereotypical 'MAN'box some people feel I should however I don't feel the need to socialize that way either, plenty of guys don't fit that mold completely.
You don't have to be genderqueer to not fit in that box or have that set of characteristics. I'm just me, and I'm a guy even if others sometimes feel I don't act like one. Because most people automatically treat me as a guy anyway and there really aren't many things that are solely manbehavior or solely womanbehavior.
I don't really worry about if how I act is 'man' enough, I want to be seen as a guy because that's what I feel I am and I want my body to reflect what I feel on the inside. But I'm not going to change WHO I am, I see it as changing the packaging not the inside.
Xren, I totally get where you're coming from (but from the other side, of course). There's a lot about the social expectations of being female that I'm not crash hot on, I have no intention of being a girly girl. Likewise, in my male persona I avoid what I consider to be machismo and a lot of other male behaviours - I'd much rather be a human being instead of someone defined by a gender expectation. That said, I still feel the overwhelming need to be in a female body and be accepted as one.
Maybe it helps that I don't consider myself entirely binary, but I don't get into very many social expectations for being male. I'm who I am. If people don't like me how I am, well it's their problem I guess. But I've never had anybody question it either.
Once they see me as a male, they don't seem to care. I think there is a wider sphere of what is "male behavior" than people think actually, or there must be.
--Jay
Quote from: Xren on December 24, 2013, 01:42:17 PM
Being "a man" sucks about as much as being "a woman" did. And I can't deny that anymore. I'm not happy trying to live as genderqueer, either.
God...I hate labels...
I'm by far no expert on this gender thing, but it looks like you're running out of categories to fit into. SO...how about just being 'YOU' ? and don't worry about what anyone thinks.
I'm a woman with a penis and yes, some parts of that suck for now, but it's temporary - not permanent. So with that being said, the 'suck factor' will be there at some level for all of us. Nothing lasts forever.
Quote from: Ms Grace on December 25, 2013, 11:10:51 AM
I have no intention of being a girly girl.
Says the girl who's wearing dresses in all her recent photos and her current avatar. ;)
C'mon Grace...all transwomen all have a 'girly girl' side. I'd love to look as good as you. I'd wear a dress 24/7. :eusa_dance:
I get some of what you said. I definitely understand the issue of the mental map vs. gender roles and whatnot. That is basically how I've felt about my transition - I see it purely as a physical change, to make the way I feel my body should be align up to what it is. It has nothing to do with social roles or personality or anything like that. I don't understand the concept of "identity" period, gender or otherwise.
But being a man in society isn't weird to me. In some respects I don't fit gender roles, and in others I do - it was the same as female and I accept that. The first time someone I worked with closely saw me a cisgender man, I knew transition was the right decision for me. I felt 100% accepted - not just as the type of man I am, but as a man, period. As female, I definitely felt accepted for my personality - most people really liked me, and I was able to "be myself" but something was missing. That something was someone recognizing that I was male.
Is it possible that you feel uncomfortable with people putting you in a box, period? Like, when they see "man" socially, you feel like it comes with a set of expected obligations and assumptions? I used to feel this way, I hated people making assumptions about me, but then I realized it wasn't really that big of a deal. Because if they knew me as a person, they'd realize what type of person I was, and then they'd have the decision to accept or reject that person. And I feel like if they apply assumptions and expectations on to me, it's not just me - they apply those to themselves, EVERY DAY and they are the person who will have to live by their own standards and beliefs. Whereas, they can assume whatever they want about me (for whatever reason, gender or otherwise) but at the end of the day, I go home and I am my own man.
Powerful post with some good enlightening answers
Quote from: JordanBlue on December 25, 2013, 01:13:23 PM
C'mon Grace...all transwomen all have a 'girly girl' side. I'd love to look as good as you. I'd wear a dress 24/7. :eusa_dance:
aw, shucks. ;) ;D
I remember your reply to the other thread that was dragged from the abyss. Regardless of how you feel about yourself it's not ok to project your insecurities about manhood or what being male is on others. I'm not downing you, people project their insecurities on others all the time, it's how people validate their opinions of themselves.
To me being a man in society is far more important than having another appendage. How many people will see your penis one day? It's not what makes you male in society. It's not what makes someone a man. It's a reproductive organ. While I could see myself with a penis in the future I really don't get penis envy or worship.
To everyone who responded, I've done some thinking. The trouble I'm having is that I don't get nonverbal communication very well at all. For instance, gestures, movement, just the little things and social cues are not something that comes naturally to me. Male body language, for instance, bothers me because it's body language and all body language seems goofy and awkward to perform regardless of the gender ascribed to it--I'm a good mimic and I can, but it's tiring--and everyone in society seems to ascribe such importance to it and I don't. Being socially anything, anything with a strong behavioral/body language component, is weird to me. So I have a rigid, extremely literal view of a lot of things in the world to compensate for my constant confusion.
The problem is my brain and I'm sorry to those I hurt.
Quote from: Xren on December 25, 2013, 05:44:24 PM
The problem is my brain and I'm sorry to those I hurt.
You could apologize on the thread you trolled then or at the very least you could have explained why you felt the way you did in your post on there rather than making a new thread with some elaborate excuse.
If you have trouble reading and understanding social cues and body language then you may want to see a psychologist and talk to them about the possibility of having some form of autism if you haven't already. And I'm serious about that. I have a friend with Asperger Syndrome and she can't read body language or social cues so she takes everything very literally. She works with a therapist who teachers her how to recognize some cues that she would normally miss so social interactions aren't as stressful for her anymore.
Yeah, sounds like Asperger's to me. I have Asperger's too, and it can be hard to read social cues, but that's not an excuse to be a jerk. Nobody likes being treated badly; you don't have to guess in that case. All of us get in a funk sometimes, but that's when it's time to apologize. I really think you owe the OP of the original thread an apology.
Quote from: Xren on December 24, 2013, 01:42:17 PM
From the beginning of my transition process, I've overreacted and taken personally the existence of people who define themselves as men who don't, and never will, have penises/do, and always will, have vaginas. I should not be personally upset by this because it's not my business, but it just seems...alienating to me.
I'm just curious ... so do you actually still consider yourself female since you don't have all the surgeries yet? And if so, do you consider what you're doing up to the time that you get the final surgery, an "act" in a way?
Further in your post you talk about being a mimic of mannerisms, etc. But that is an act as well, technically. You're not really being yourself when you're trying to copy what other people are doing.
From my observations just on this board, it seems a lot of male trans people go one of two ways ... either they're like myself and they just are the way they are and that just happens to be "male" on the mannerisms, how you carry yourself in society, etc. or you were heavily influenced (and confused) by your original socialization as "female" and have a hard time navigating as male in society because of that. You mention that, in addition, you can't figure out body language, so for you personally that's also going to come into play.
I've noticed in some of your other posts you mention how well you pass. So you don't seem to have the problem of people not taking you as male by appearance alone. Honestly it does sound more like an issue with just the way you're thinking about stuff. Sure there's those stereotypical male mannerisms and "ways to be a man", but not even all the cis males out there fit into those boxes. And i've talked to plenty who also put on an "act" when it comes to certain things (I know a hell of a lot of men who fake liking sports because they think other men will give them sh*t about not liking sports, for instance). I guess it's human nature to just want to feel accepted by "the group" – whatever that group may be. But what it really comes down to, is your own happiness and comfort level. Are you happy/comfortable putting on an act? Yes? Good, do it. No? Bad, don't do it.
And there's so many various ways to "be a man" but you have to be your own man.
Circling back to the penis thing. I get what you're saying. I'm not transitioning, but I don't consider myself female either. However, I know that I will never have the perfect looking, fully functional penis that my mind thinks I have already. That's just how my brain is set up though. Maybe it's like those guys who have an unfortunate accident and lose all/part of their penis? All I know is that I didn't come into this world with a fully female brain. And I've had to deal with the reality of missing or added parts in my own way. I tried other people's ways of dealing with it, and it didn't work. But I'm certainly not going to compromise on who I am with myself (and some very close friends), and I'm done with trying to act some sort of role out for society. If people want to refer to me as a "masculine woman", whatever. They're wrong, of course, although they may never know that, but I do and that's what matters most to me.
I've been told (by so-called "professionals" no less) that I can't possible be male because I'm not even willing to do "treatment" (transition). For a long time that stayed with me and made my resentment of my physical body (and half of society) even worse. It wasn't until I had sorted some things out on my own and basically just had a, screw it, I'm just going to be myself regardless, moment, that things started looking up for me in that area. I think you need to sort through some things yourself and also realize that projecting your own opinions on others and/or holding them up to your definitions doesn't really help you at all.
Quote from: JordanBlue on December 25, 2013, 01:13:23 PM
Says the girl who's wearing dresses in all her recent photos and her current avatar. ;)
C'mon Grace...all transwomen all have a 'girly girl' side. I'd love to look as good as you. I'd wear a dress 24/7. :eusa_dance:
Well Grace is indeed adorable. Though I know transwomen who are biker chicks and so on. They don't fit into stereotypes more than we do, though I think the expectations are harder or something.
--Jay
Quote from: DCQ on December 25, 2013, 09:21:23 PM
Yeah, sounds like Asperger's to me. I have Asperger's too, and it can be hard to read social cues, but that's not an excuse to be a jerk. Nobody likes being treated badly; you don't have to guess in that case.
I don't think it's Asperger's, because I'm capable of reading the body language and implicit communications if I make an effort--hence the comment about ability to mimic--but I don't implicitly share the emotional attachment and amount of importance(?) most seem to ascribe to it. Not an issue of knowing what or how, but why and why
this? Keeping track of non-verbal, gestural, meta-communication type things and formulating the proper response to being gestured and implicit-statemented and body-languaged at is strenuous. Depersonalization/derealization describes it better, rather than a lack of ability it's a disconnect. I might have Schizoid and/or Schizotypal PD. I've been this way for most of my life, just didn't know how to explain it or that it would cause difficulties as an adult.
Five words in the wrong context were that incredibly hurtful. I know, people have feelings that aren't mine and right to be upset. The thread was the second result that showed up on a search engine, I didn't go digging for it. I typed and posted five words and it was a big thing. I wasn't even angry about anything, at anyone, and was barely aware that it would be Christmas in a few days. I knew some might get mad, because a lot of people have very strong opinions on the subject, but I underestimated the degree to which the statement would be upsetting.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 25, 2013, 09:54:47 PM
I'm just curious ... so do you actually still consider yourself female since you don't have all the surgeries yet? And if so, do you consider what you're doing up to the time that you get the final surgery, an "act" in a way?
Technically yes, I consider myself female by default, in the situations where it would apply (i.e, being pantsless in front of other people, which I go out of my way to avoid so they don't see that I'm still female down there,) though less so than before the other surgeries. I consider everything I do, everything I have done and everything I will do socially an "act" because reality and communication and gestures and any/every social role, gendered or not, feels like one. Derealization/depersonalization and an inherent disconnect from the shared importance of certain stuff people around me have. I wasn't implying that gendered mannerisms/presentation/performance/roles are "fake-unless," or less genuine than when cis people do them. It all seems like a bunch of actors milling around on stage acting and being bizarre, no matter who's doing it or what variation of it they're doing.
QuoteFurther in your post you talk about being a mimic of mannerisms, etc. But that is an act as well, technically. You're not really being yourself when you're trying to copy what other people are doing.
From my observations just on this board, it seems a lot of male trans people go one of two ways ... either they're like myself and they just are the way they are and that just happens to be "male" on the mannerisms, how you carry yourself in society, etc. or you were heavily influenced (and confused) by your original socialization as "female" and have a hard time navigating as male in society because of that. You mention that, in addition, you can't figure out body language, so for you personally that's also going to come into play.
There wasn't any original socialization. People must have tried, and I tried, but it didn't stick. Trying to teach myself female mannerisms or pick them up from other people felt the same then as it does now--disjointed, disconnected, a struggle to maintain or even find any value in, beyond "not getting yelled at by people who expect you to do these things," and even that wasn't good enough after a while. The only way I was able to deal with social situations and go from complete train wreck to...partial train wreck, was by inventing a character who was clearly, in my mind, a fictional character, and being that person. Nobody seemed to notice, or react to me as though I was being less "real," so I came to the conclusion that it's what everyone did and I'd just figured it out. It turns out I was wrong and people do have a genuine sense of an internal immutable thing that they are driving their actions, and that their actions are the logical outcomes/manifestations of the core self-ness they feel. My sense of self is a conglomeration of patterns of preferences and tendencies that don't have anything to do with anyone or anything else, and exist arbitrarily to form this entity I perceive as "me" because...that's what fell from the primordial void, ask a trilobite why it's a trilobite and it wouldn't understand, it would keep trilobiting along. These patterns also don't have any natural outward manifestation that is consistent from day to day, situation to situation. There is no body language that instinctively emanates from, or instinctively expresses, these patterns-that-comprise-internal-me. If I wanted one, I had to invent one.
If I set aside five minutes in which to demonstrate what it looked like when I was not doing anything that felt like acting or mimicry, those five minutes would be spent sitting in a catatonic daze staring at a wall and not moving. Is that the "real me?" If no actions come naturally to me, not even the simplest ones, does this mean I have no self and there is no real me?
I don't think that's what you're implying, but if you are it's incorrect, there is clearly a "me" in there, but it doesn't seem to be made of, centered around, or reactive to, the same stuff as others' is, going on others' descriptions of identity--not just gender identity but identity, period.
QuoteI've noticed in some of your other posts you mention how well you pass. So you don't seem to have the problem of people not taking you as male by appearance alone. Honestly it does sound more like an issue with just the way you're thinking about stuff. Sure there's those stereotypical male mannerisms and "ways to be a man", but not even all the cis males out there fit into those boxes. And i've talked to plenty who also put on an "act" when it comes to certain things (I know a hell of a lot of men who fake liking sports because they think other men will give them sh*t about not liking sports, for instance). I guess it's human nature to just want to feel accepted by "the group" – whatever that group may be. But what it really comes down to, is your own happiness and comfort level. Are you happy/comfortable putting on an act? Yes? Good, do it. No? Bad, don't do it.
The degree to which almost all of daily functional life feels like "putting on a performance" makes my happiness and comfort an irrelevant factor. There are stereotypical male mannerisms, and then there are appropriate mannerisms for anything at all. There's stereotypical masculine clothing, and then there's doing laundry and wearing clothes. There's short hair, there's long hair, and there's bathing every week. None of it makes me happy or comfortable, aside from a vague sense of accomplishment that I got a chore done and I don't have to anymore, and a sense of, "this is my pantomime of a normal person with basic functional life skills." I could decide, "not happy/comfortable putting on this act. Bad. Not doing it." I could. But then, the act I'm putting on is commonly known as hygiene.
QuoteAnd there's so many various ways to "be a man" but you have to be your own man.
The way I'm thinking about stuff is probably tripping me up, you were right, but in a different way. People recommend and advise transitioners to "go with what feels natural," "trust your instincts," "unlearn the unwanted socialization and the real you is what's underneath," and this is good advice, some of the best advice. I don't have any instincts to trust, though. It's all cognitive. I was getting confused by the supposed lack of honesty my detachment and maybe-schizoid tendencies connoted, digging for a felt authenticity in basic behavior that I don't have and never had. I should have realized that it's all going to feel like acting anyway, and in a weird way it's freedom because it would mean I can choose, I could be in near-complete control of who I am to other people, I could get out there, play the part and nail it, no hesitation. I could be anyone I wanted, if I wanted.
And that scares me. It's like being commanded to prove I exist. I could only say that I do and don't at the same time, if it's anything it's nothing, or is it, and then what?
On a different subject, I've got this body I move around in.
QuoteCircling back to the penis thing. I get what you're saying. I'm not transitioning, but I don't consider myself female either. However, I know that I will never have the perfect looking, fully functional penis that my mind thinks I have already. That's just how my brain is set up though. Maybe it's like those guys who have an unfortunate accident and lose all/part of their penis? All I know is that I didn't come into this world with a fully female brain. And I've had to deal with the reality of missing or added parts in my own way. I tried other people's ways of dealing with it, and it didn't work. But I'm certainly not going to compromise on who I am with myself (and some very close friends), and I'm done with trying to act some sort of role out for society. If people want to refer to me as a "masculine woman", whatever. They're wrong, of course, although they may never know that, but I do and that's what matters most to me.
I've been told (by so-called "professionals" no less) that I can't possible be male because I'm not even willing to do "treatment" (transition). For a long time that stayed with me and made my resentment of my physical body (and half of society) even worse. It wasn't until I had sorted some things out on my own and basically just had a, screw it, I'm just going to be myself regardless, moment, that things started looking up for me in that area. I think you need to sort through some things yourself and also realize that projecting your own opinions on others and/or holding them up to your definitions doesn't really help you at all.
You're right, I shouldn't have been telling other people who they were and weren't. From what I gather in the quote above, you conflate things that I don't, and don't conflate things that I do. Where you place the boundaries of your categories is not where I place them. That does not give me an excuse to walk in and start yelling about how I'm right and everyone is wrong. But repeating myself, I focus on my rigid either-or body category based view of the world because it's something solid and concrete and relatively simplistic to anchor my comprehension of existence with. It is comforting, to me. But that does not give me an excuse to dump it on other people.
Said what I meant already about the "being myself" thing, why I can't work on that premise, how there is no "myself" that doesn't feel like acting and there never was, etc.
No, it did help, because I had to think about stuff, even though I upset people, so in the future I won't upset as many people.
Quote from: Xren on December 26, 2013, 08:40:13 PM
Said what I meant already about the "being myself" thing, why I can't work on that premise, how there is no "myself" that doesn't feel like acting and there never was, etc.
No, it did help, because I had to think about stuff, even though I upset people, so in the future I won't upset as many people.
Whether or not you think there's no myself, there still is. Your particular "self" just seems to be a pastiche. You're not abnormal is that respect. Everyone, no matter who they are or whether they have a gender issue, picks up things from other people. Often times it's done unconsciously. A mannerism here, a style of dress there, a personality trait, what makes you laugh. Humans are highly influential and highly susceptible to being influenced. But it's more the sum of all the parts make up the whole. You really are you, but you're over-analyzing yourself with a highly clinical and sanitized lens it seems.
Surly there are things you like in life. Maybe it's a food you find really tasty, a favorite color, music you like to listen to, etc. Maybe someone somewhere along the line made you try a food and then you actually ended up liking it. That was all you, the liking it part. Start with really small stuff like that and you may uncover the fact that you are a unique individual with likes and dislikes. Stop worrying so much about what other people are going to think. And stop putting that highly clinical lens on everyone else trying to analyze their every nuance. When a social situation requires it, it's okay to act sometimes. Plenty of people don't like getting dressed up and going to weddings, but they do, because it makes other people happy. But day to day, you have to explore and uncover things that resonate with you and make you feel, at the very least, okay with yourself.
Quote from: Xren on December 25, 2013, 05:44:24 PM
The problem is my brain and I'm sorry to those I hurt.
Xren, I appreciate this statement. But I think if you haven't already, an apology might go a long way with the OP (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=23964) of that thread.
I think there are a lot of us trans folk who harbor certain prejudices or resentments to certain ideas, behaviors, etc of other trans folk. This is the consequence of being associated with a diverse group of people based on a single characteristic. You see or read something and you're like -
wait! I'm not like that! How can he do that? He must not feel the way I feel. He's totally invalidating my feelings, dysphoria, struggle, etc. And if I'm trans, then how can he be? And then you're like -
god forbid anyone thinks I'm like that! I don't want to be lumped in with him! Or her. Because if he does XYZ, he's nothing like me and must not be male.
Not saying you're thinking those things Xren. But it's a common thought process. And I think most of us have had thoughts like that at one time or another. Marginalized peoples often have reactions like this. It's not unique to trans folk.
It's not wrong to have these knee jerk reactions. We probably all have that one thing that other trans guys do that pisses us off and hits us on some visceral level we can't explain. The thing is - for every guy whose behavior, presentation, failure to have certain surgeries or do certain things, etc etc bothers you, I can almost guarantee that guy finds some aspect of your identity as a trans person objectionable as well. I have my own hang-ups about certain things some trans guys do but I also have things about me that bother other guys as well.
Dysphoria hits people in different ways. These guys who don't want bottom surgery for whatever reason just see things differently than you. As a presumed white person, do you agree with the feelings and actions of all other white people? No? Because you realize they just share a single characteristic to you and it doesn't mean anything. Try to remind yourself of this with regard to trans people.
While I had the benefit of not being offended by the other thread, as I had not read it prior to reading this one although I have now gone back and looked it up, I still found this post to be largely dismissive if not mostly offensive.
And it wasn't just "5 little words." That's the thing about accountability, it's incompatible with the tactics of understating and dismissing the original intent. You said what you meant, that much was very clear.
This seems to be mostly a philosophical or academic exercise for you, at least for my vantage point. Defining the self, relating to gender, understanding non verbal communication, diagnosing your lack of interest in the importance of it, the characteristics of biological sex and gender, etc. There is a time and place for that. There are entire departments in universities designed for just such a noble cause. Maybe there are even threads on online forums dedicated to just such discussions, but that wasn't one of them and I'm not sure this is necessarily the right spot either given that your context was apologizing for another thread and then dismissing a variety of identities and bodies.
I'm a well educated and articulate human -- I enjoy a good discussion. When I came to peace with my transition, I sought those discussions. What did this mean? Where was the line for me? What was the purpose? At what point would I know I was a man or not a man or male or not male? what were the cues? the behavior? the biology? the definition? and I searched online and landed here and it became apparent that not everyone was so excited to have those same discussions because for so many it wasn't a philosophical or academic exploration -- it was a question of basic survival.
I know that one. I did it early on, I nearly lost my life to that struggle. Over many years, a handful of therapists, some broken relationships and otherworldly strength, I made peace with myself. I feel almost no different now that I've begun my transition because nothing of me is really changing, just my body. I've lived in the seam of gender for my entire life. Fought the long continuous battle of understanding what was female, what was male, and what was me in terms of behavior, expectation, socialization, and biology and being that I've never fit I was left with little choice than to develop a keen awareness of body langue to keep myself safe and live as whole and authentic as possible to keep from killing myself, literally and metaphorically.
Now, as an adult, my transition isn't about any of that stuff -- it's not a question of who I am, what I am, or how I'll live as I am. It isn't about anything but figuring out how I feel and think about it. Not everyone is ready or interested in talking about how their brain conceptualizes things or defines the terms that best give them an understanding of their own experience, much less asking for your opinion of how other people with no sense of the experience have defined it for them.
Some of us are doing our best to weave together a delicate sense of self through these boards, through these connections, through these words, through these relationships that remind us that it's ok that we feel the way we do, experience what we do, struggle with what we do, look like we do and that we don't have to do any of that ->-bleeped-<- alone. No matter that most of the people outside of here don't understand, the people here do. The people here support you, admire you, encourage you, empathize with you, stand with you, triumph with you, cry with you, joy with you and hurt with you. Maybe the rest of the world doesn't get it, but we do.
Your 5 little words, weren't little. They were like the collapse of a bomb shelter. The place you trust to be safe when nothing else is suddenly becomes a danger in and of itself. Even this post with it's proverbial you, it's dismissive of other peoples experience, process, identity, and authenticity. Whatever way you've come to define the terms for you (there are convenient and widely acknowledged and accepted definitions to gender and sex for purposes of discussion) that support your own sense of self -- those are great, but it would be unrealistic to expect everyone to feel the same, much less not be offended by dismissing other people's identity by dismissing their sense of male, female, man and woman.
I'm not a man. I'm not a woman. I'm not male. I'm not female. Humanity and language have not caught up with my manifestation yet and if I want to maintain emotional, mental and physical health -- I won't be worrying about what the rest of the world understands. AND I have to live within the boundaries and confines of the world I've been born to and the language I've been given. We have widely varied experiences, bound by only a handful of words to describe it and doing our best to build a community on that foundation. We won't all agree but I think we can all agree to be respectful of each other without telling one another who they are, are not, will be or won't be.
It's not my place to say what makes a man, a woman, makes someone male, female, transexual, transgender, or genderqueer. I struggle to understand where the lines are for my own self, I wouldn't assume I could understand for anyone else.
I don't think you did that consciously and you probably don't even feel like that's what you did, but in a way that was certainly the impact. I support your journey and am thankful you feel really confident about your understanding of yourself but asking what motivates others to be as true themselves as they can be while simultaneously being dismissive of the experience of being male/a man without the "necessary" biology... That just seems a bit backhanded. And offensive. And hurtful. And unproductive.
If it offends you, I suspect you'll have a hard time finding a receptive ear for these discussions among so many men with varying biology.
Lex
(My foot is in my mouth right now, but I want to see what will be said.)
What if I transitioned all the way to what is considered physically "male" and then went back to not living as a man, but living as either arbitrarily-gendered or a woman with a surgically-constructed penis? Would that mean I was a woman? What if I didn't mind being seen as either, but did mind the shape of my body and primary/secondary sex characteristics? Does that mean that deep down inside, I am an extremely butch woman or nongendered entity with a small penis?
How does anyone know that some cisgender men don't feel the same way, but they identify as male because of their bodies? Maybe some cisgender men see themselves as extremely butch nongendered identities that happen to be considered male, with small penises?
Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 12:23:09 PM
(My foot is in my mouth right now, but I want to see what will be said.)
What if I transitioned all the way to what is considered physically "male" and then went back to not living as a man, but living as either arbitrarily-gendered or a woman with a surgically-constructed penis? Would that mean I was a woman? What if I didn't mind being seen as either, but did mind the shape of my body and primary/secondary sex characteristics? Does that mean that deep down inside, I am an extremely butch woman or nongendered entity with a small penis?
How does anyone know that some cisgender men don't feel the same way, but they identify as male because of their bodies? Maybe some cisgender men see themselves as extremely butch nongendered identities that happen to be considered male, with small penises?
Not sure what you're getting at, but I don't see how it matters. You seem really focused on the physical, but merely wanting a penis doesn't make anyone male. If you're getting into genital essentialism (thanks to whomever I just got that term from the other day), then a constructed penis doesn't make anyone any more male than the lack of one.
Either genitals equal gender or they don't. You can't have it both ways. If genitals equal gender, then you're just a woman with penis envy until you get your surgery. And then there will be a host of people telling you it doesn't count as a real penis, so you're still a woman.
Quote from: FA on December 28, 2013, 02:12:54 PM
Not sure what you're getting at, but I don't see how it matters. You seem really focused on the physical, but merely wanting a penis doesn't make anyone male. If you're getting into genital essentialism (thanks to whomever I just got that term from the other day), then a constructed penis doesn't make anyone any more male than the lack of one.
Either genitals equal gender or they don't. You can't have it both ways. If genitals equal gender, then you're just a woman with penis envy until you get your surgery. And then there will be a host of people telling you it doesn't count as a real penis, so you're still a woman.
That is how I feel, pretty much. More like genderless seeking to have typical male primary-secondary sex characteristics, but there's no way to be treated entirely genderlessly in society so I'm trying to pick a side, and most of the cis people I know don't have a very strong gender identity outside of their anatomy so I guess I'm like they are, and a lot of them aren't 100% comfortable with their social role either. Though given the SOC and regulations and things, it means I have to lie through my teeth and pretend I have this strong sense of internal identification with something I don't even entirely believe in, so I can feel okay in my body.
People would still turn around and get angry at me and say I'm insane and should see a therapist to fix me from being this way and that I'm betraying the community. Some would insinuate that I'd been molested, or that I had somatic delusions. In the past, I've opened up about this and seen my former friends try to feed me those excuses/explanations, to the point of trying to play "gotcha" with physically-related things in a humiliating way, to try and, I dunno, "convince" me I had some weird internal misogyny hangup or sexual trauma that was only making me think I needed this and I had to get over it, once I saw that it was "okay to have a vagina" via pantsing me/unexpected exposure or grabbing me in the labia while insisting they weren't or...some clever maneuver like that. I.e, "surprise! Everyone can see your body and they don't care! Can't you just stop feeling the way you do already, because there's nothing wrong with being the way you are," and expecting me to have this magical epiphany and my entire neurological map to vanish into thin air and I'd be normal again with maybe these extremely radical feminist leanings.
So what if it makes me still "just a woman?" I don't have any intense attachment to any social gender, but I have to learn the male one for the sake of survival and being taken seriously by doctors and it sucks but it's pragmatism. I wish I could talk about that.
(P.S. I apologized privately.)
(P.P.S. I should not have framed this thread in the way that I did.)
Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 03:17:37 PM
So what if it makes me still "just a woman?" I don't have any intense attachment to any social gender, but I have to learn the male one for the sake of survival and being taken seriously by doctors and it sucks but it's pragmatism.
Most of us do have an intense attachment for a social/binary gender. That is why guys were offended by your previous statement. You don't have to pick a gender for yourself. From what I've gathered you're on T (profile pic is old), right? If so then you're probably beyond an androgynous appearance at this point. Society will see you as male. That was the choice you made with testosterone. Other than that internally you don't have to accept yourself as male or female. One thing that is hard to do is accept yourself as you see you. Yes, people are going to gender you. That happens regardless of where you fall in the gender spectrum. This isn't about society though. This is about your internalized feelings you have adopted on yourself.
Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 03:17:37 PM
In the past, I've opened up about this and seen my former friends try to feed me those excuses/explanations, to the point of trying to play "gotcha" with physically-related things in a humiliating way, to try and, I dunno, "convince" me I had some weird internal misogyny hangup or sexual trauma that was only making me think I needed this and I had to get over it, once I saw that it was "okay to have a vagina" via pantsing me/unexpected exposure or grabbing me in the labia while insisting they weren't or...some clever maneuver like that. I.e, "surprise! Everyone can see your body and they don't care! Can't you just stop feeling the way you do already, because there's nothing wrong with being the way you are," and expecting me to have this magical epiphany and my entire neurological map to vanish into thin air and I'd be normal again with maybe these extremely radical feminist leanings.
I can actually really relate to what you're talking about here and it's kind of a whole other thing. I've had experiences where people try to physically "expose" me or get me to just "be ok" with everything just like that. If you want to continue that thread of the discussion at all off this post, feel free to pm me.
Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 03:17:37 PM
People would still turn around and get angry at me and say I'm insane and should see a therapist to fix me from being this way and that I'm betraying the community.
So what if it makes me still "just a woman?" I don't have any intense attachment to any social gender, but I have to learn the male one for the sake of survival and being taken seriously by doctors and it sucks but it's pragmatism. I wish I could talk about that.
I wouldn't listen to anyone who says you are "betraying" anyone. Seriously, if those are your friends, or even acquaintances, I'd get them the hell out of your life. From what you said, it seems these are people in the trans community or who claim to be trans allies (with the whole, it's ok to have a vagina thing, no one cares) - imo these types of people, especially when they go to the level of pantsing you, are just toxic and clearly have no idea of what dysphoria entails.
In terms of what you said about the frustrations with body language and gendered expectations...I imagine that must be incredibly difficult, to feel like you have to put on a performance. I can relate, in some ways. Have you ever considered just not worrying about body language? I remember I used to get really hung up on my body language because my brother made fun of it (saying that I was "awkward") and it really made me paranoid (I also worried it wasn't male enough and that I'd be targeted). I tried to control everything I could to make myself seem confident - my walk, my talk, the space I took up, etc. And then he made fun of me more because I wasn't truly confident, I was just trying to "play the role." I then realized it had to come from the inside out, so I just let myself be "awkward" and "effeminate" and just let everything fall into place as I grew as a person. Much easier said than done, but it can happen. Sometimes I get a giggle or something from someone when I do something "gay" but who cares? I'm not transitioning to fit into some male role or male stereotype. I'm transitioning to be comfortable in my body. I'd really try and let your focus be there...are you happy with T? I don't know if you've had any surgery at all, but are you happy with that? That's what matters. And one day you can have the bottom surgery that you want, and have your penis, and feel even more comfortable.
I guess what I am getting at is why worry about body language and how others perceive you when you have enough on your plate as it is?
Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 03:17:37 PM
That is how I feel, pretty much. More like genderless seeking to have typical male primary-secondary sex characteristics, but there's no way to be treated entirely genderlessly in society so I'm trying to pick a side,
There are others here who feel the same way. I feel like that a little bit. I don't have a particularly strong tie to being male anymore. I have a more androgynous personality - masculine in some respects, not so masculine in others. I don't care for the male social role much more than I did the female one (though I thought I would before transition, now I know gender roles just suck period). But I'm comfortable with my factory genitals. It was the other stuff that bothered me.
Quoteand most of the cis people I know don't have a very strong gender identity outside of their anatomy so I guess I'm like they are, and a lot of them aren't 100% comfortable with their social role either.
But you aren't like those cis people because otherwise it wouldn't be a big deal to you what genitals you had.
QuotePeople would still turn around and get angry at me and say I'm insane and should see a therapist to fix me from being this way and that I'm betraying the community. Some would insinuate that I'd been molested, or that I had somatic delusions. In the past, I've opened up about this and seen my former friends try to feed me those excuses/explanations, to the point of trying to play "gotcha" with physically-related things in a humiliating way, to try and, I dunno, "convince" me I had some weird internal misogyny hangup or sexual trauma that was only making me think I needed this and I had to get over it, once I saw that it was "okay to have a vagina" via pantsing me/unexpected exposure or grabbing me in the labia while insisting they weren't or...some clever maneuver like that. I.e, "surprise! Everyone can see your body and they don't care! Can't you just stop feeling the way you do already, because there's nothing wrong with being the way you are," and expecting me to have this magical epiphany and my entire neurological map to vanish into thin air and I'd be normal again with maybe these extremely radical feminist leanings.
I'm sorry to hear you've been exposed to this treatment. Sounds like sexual harassment. Are these former 'friends' radical feminists? (not to malign radical feminists)
Why do you think you feel the way you do about your genitals if you don't have any ties to being male? What other physical aspects do you care about? Have you had or are you planning a full medical transition? Based on your statement in the other thread - why do you agree that genitals make the man if you don't feel you have a gender identity yet want a penis?
QuoteSo what if it makes me still "just a woman?" I don't have any intense attachment to any social gender, but I have to learn the male one for the sake of survival and being taken seriously by doctors and it sucks but it's pragmatism. I wish I could talk about that.
You can. Not everyone loves the male social role or any social role. Like anything else, it fits some better than others. That's not so much to do with gender identity either. It fits some cis people better than others too.
wow, you guys get pretty heavy over here. All I know is that my brain was wired at birth to be female but forgot to do the bottom.
Quote from: stephaniec on December 28, 2013, 08:23:20 PM
wow, you guys get pretty heavy over here. All I know is that my brain was wired at birth to be female but forgot to do the bottom.
Same here, but the other way around. This is all very confusing to me, lol. Interesting though. Even though it's way over my head.
(Late reply, this is not very fun to talk about. Should have said things sooner. Probably should not be bumping this thread.)
Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 28, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
I can actually really relate to what you're talking about here and it's kind of a whole other thing. I've had experiences where people try to physically "expose" me or get me to just "be ok" with everything just like that. If you want to continue that thread of the discussion at all off this post, feel free to pm me.
Thank you. I appreciate your willingness to discuss uncomfortable aspects of life with this condition...heck, I can barely think about most of it. I may or may not PM, but I am appreciative of this.
Quote from: caleb. on December 28, 2013, 04:36:00 PM
From what you said, it seems these are people in the trans community or who claim to be trans allies (with the whole, it's ok to have a vagina thing, no one cares) - imo these types of people, especially when they go to the level of pantsing you, are just toxic and clearly have no idea of what dysphoria entails.
Yup. This is why I'm hesitant to, and somewhat bitter about, going into great detail concerning this topic. My emotional nuance ability is shutting down as I type, fyi, if I think about it too much I will lapse into the clinical language which tends to be misconstrued. This "toxic" (as you put it) behavior has come from mostly either people in/affiliated with the trans community, or the uber-feminist sex-positive love-your-vagina crowd who equate discomfort with one's body parts with sexism. I did not dislike the vagina because vagina coded female and female coded inferior. "Dislike" wasn't the right word. Instead, a sense of "this does not belong on me" due to the aforementioned body map. It's all body map, for me. It's got nothing to do with the external perception of anyone, or any ideas of mine about gender.
Quote from: caleb. on December 28, 2013, 04:36:00 PM
Have you ever considered just not worrying about body language?
Yes. I also live in a part of Ohio where it's likely to get me killed or beaten if I'm not some combination of incredibly ruthless, potentially violently psychotic, a Bruce Lee Jeet Kun Do martial arts badarse mofo, and/or a gun owner. It got me run out of the town where I was going to college, and those jerks followed me home for a second helping of cruelty. I'm alive because I'm very good at evasion and disappearing.
Quote..are you happy with T?
Don't get me started on this. Not mad at you, but if I start, I'm not going to stop. No, I'm not "happy on T," but what do you mean by "happy" and what form of T are you talking about? I've had issues with T, and it's been a miserable time, going on and off because I had to, though BTW I am on it right now, a daily dose of topical because everything else turns horrible almost instantaneously. That does not somehow indicate that I am "actually not trans" or whatever. T is not magic. T is not special occulted boy-juice that proves who knows what is best for them. T is not fun. Puberty is GRUELING. But it makes my chest hair grow, and my beard grow, and my parts grow. It makes my voice deepen, not enough for my comfort, but slowly and surely. I'm just as grouchy and surly as I was before. Emotionally I am the same on T as off T, maybe twitchier but that's it. It feels the same as the first run of puberty, except this time I'm not getting the bleeds. This not joy, this is not rapture, this is not "the right fuel for my engine," (and they call me essentialist,) this is welcome back to the beautiful hell called physical maturation. Some good, some bad, all completely insane...insane in a neutral way.
Quote from: FA on December 28, 2013, 06:32:56 PM
But you aren't like those cis people because otherwise it wouldn't be a big deal to you what genitals you had.
But if I had been born with the right set I would be like those cis people.
QuoteAre these former 'friends' radical feminists? (not to malign radical feminists)
To repeat myself--they were pretty far from it, by most definitions. Unless you include sex-positive hipster ideological "gender rebel" feminists in your definition of radfems. (A lot of their so-called feminism boiled down to "anything that society calls masculine is wrong and bad, even if you don't define it as masculine but just how you are personally," for starters.)
QuoteWhy do you think you feel the way you do about your genitals if you don't have any ties to being male? What other physical aspects do you care about? Have you had or are you planning a full medical transition? Based on your statement in the other thread - why do you agree that genitals make the man if you don't feel you have a gender identity yet want a penis?
The phrasing of this question is slightly unnerving, i.e, "why do you think you feel xyz," implication being that I only *think* I feel a certain way and there's no possible sane way I could honestly feel like this because it doesn't fit a paradigm. I may be reading too much into this, I'm not sure if I am being oversensitive or not.
Why do I
feel this way (and not just
think I feel?) Because, as I've said before, neurological body map is neurological body map. My "ties to being male" begin and end with the body type that the word "male" usually pertains to. Because that is how I see myself and everyone. What other physical aspects do I care about? This is a loaded question and I can't answer it without anger about "cis-centrism" and attribution of psychological motives getting in the way. Yes, I am planning on a full medical transition. I do not agree that genitals make the "man," because I don't think there is such thing, but I do agree that genitals make the male, because genitals are the only reason the concept of "male" exists, and "male" means nothing aside from genitals and a degree of variation on the theme of other body characteristics. Everything else is society's sexism and personal preference that society has wrangled and shoehorned into sexist concepts.
So it's wrong to genital essentialize, but perfectly fine to gender essentialize? This is why I'm uncomfortable with framing things in terms of "gender identity." The entire concept seems incredibly sexist to me--sexist against men and women alike. The concepts of "masculine" and "feminine" are sexist to me as well. I have mostly traits that society would call "masculine." I'm not comfortable with defining them as "masculine" or "male," though. They're mine, they're the way I happen to be, what I happen to prefer and it's got nothing to do with my sense of what my body should be or any investment in the concept of "man." If I didn't have the bodily sense that I did I would have been a girl or a woman with the same set of interests and preferences. I can't live with myself redefining traits that are personal into some gendered box, even if society does. This is my main problem with any kind of gender socialization, because they take personal preferences and attribute them, with a smarmy wink-wink attitude, to the concept of "man" or "woman." It's slimy and uncomfortable to have my personal preferences taken out of "me" and stuck in this box of "dude." No I am NOT a "total dude" because I love beer and action movies and running around in the mud and I tend to sprawl my legs when I sit. What about all the male people who aren't like this? What about all the female people who are like this? I would have BEEN one of the "female people who are like this," except for the whole issue of...
"My sense of my body is set up inside in a way that happens to map to a body type that is called male by its characteristics, as opposed to female and I don't know why. Go figure. If it is not surgically correctable, then I have to learn to live with it--oh wait, it's medically possible to correct these physical anomalies? Can I stay the same in terms of personality? Then sign me up! Oh wait, there are all these different social norms and everyone is responding to me differently just because I'm doing this and expecting different things of me. That sucks. That makes me mad. Meanwhile, I'm trying to sort out other issues, such as past trauma from bullying and forced psychiatric medication, and trying to avoid harassment in the present day for a medical condition I can't help, so I'll forget about it for now."
Also, I do not retract the statement that I made, of "so what if they still think of me as a girl?" Because it still doesn't matter. They can think whatever they want, because the term is meaningless to me. If it looks like a penis, erects like a penis, does other things like a penis, you can call it whatever you want but it's still a penis and there is a difference between it and a clitoris, or even a penis with a vagina underneath. Until then, I keep my pants on around other people. Probably after then, too. Afterward would be less awkward and lead to less awkward conversations. So they can insist on calling it a gigantic clitoris with a line of scar tissue where a vagina would be, and these lumpy formerly-labia flesh-bulbs underneath it that it sits on, with a urethra on the end that I pee through, whatev, fine then, it's the strangest clitoris I've ever heard of--but there's no denying it's not in the same category as any other clitoris they're likely to have seen. Because at the end of the day it is not, in fact, a clitoris, but a penis and no amount of linguistics or denial is going to undo that.
Quote from: Xren on December 31, 2013, 03:34:34 PM
QuoteWhy do you think you feel the way you do about your genitals if you don't have any ties to being male? What other physical aspects do you care about? Have you had or are you planning a full medical transition? Based on your statement in the other thread - why do you agree that genitals make the man if you don't feel you have a gender identity yet want a penis?
The phrasing of this question is slightly unnerving, i.e, "why do you think you feel xyz," implication being that I only *think* I feel a certain way and there's no possible sane way I could honestly feel like this because it doesn't fit a paradigm. I may be reading too much into this, I'm not sure if I am being oversensitive or not.
Well, you've written a lot here and I may reply to more of it. But for a start, yes you are reading more into it. I simply meant 'why do you think you feel this way?' rather than any implication you only 'think' you feel a certain way. Basically, you feel what you feel, but why do you think that is?
I didn't mean it as in did T solve all your problems, lol. Anyone who has been on it long enough knows that's the furthest thing from true and not all the results are exactly pleasurable. 21 months in and I feel better about my body all in all, but I still have dysphoria and issues and whatnot. I just meant, focus on the fact that you are getting where you want to be physically. Though given that you've had some bad experiences and live in a place where you can't afford to stand out in terms of body language, I can understand why you're concerned about how you present to others.
I don't like when people label my behaviours feminine or masculine either - because it's sticking to gender roles and stereotypes (what we associate with men and what we associate with women), and I think that as a society we are, or should be, so far past that by now. I also hate how I do things exactly the same as I used to, but people interpret them differently, because it shows me their lack of objectivity. And it used to really piss me off on an intellectual level, but I realized, I'm not going to waste my energy wondering how other people interpret my behaviours. I understand that you need to watch out for your safety, but it's obviously stressing you out being pre-occupied with how others read your body language. I can't entirely relate to your situation as I live in a fairly safe place, but I'd worry simply about the practical - learning to defend yourself physically, perhaps investing in a weapon, and blending in only when necessary. Instead of intellectualizing it.
I'm not sure if I sound like a dick or not. I'm not trying to be judgmental or harsh, I just see that you're obviously having a hard time and seeing if I have any ideas that might help.
Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 12:23:09 PM
What if I transitioned all the way to what is considered physically "male" and then went back to not living as a man, but living as either arbitrarily-gendered or a woman with a surgically-constructed penis? Would that mean I was a woman? What if I didn't mind being seen as either, but did mind the shape of my body and primary/secondary sex characteristics? Does that mean that deep down inside, I am an extremely butch woman or nongendered entity with a small penis?
You can do that and it would mean you were whatever gender you identified as. Have you heard of the term agender? It means you don't have a gender identity (meaning social gender and not how you feel your body should be). I think it might fit you.
I think it might help you to separate gender into different parts. There's how you feel your body should be, gender roles (like providing for your family or being a stay at home parent, your hobbies), social gender/gender identity (how you want people to see you, how you interact with people, body language) and gender expression (your clothes, jewelry, hair and stuff). You can be any combination of those things and even different gendered things in those categories. Like you could want to have a penis and breasts. You might like sports & sewing. You might like make up & mens clothes. You could be any combination.
Also, I'm Autistic and you sound like you are to me. You don't have to be unable to understand body language to be Autistic :)
Quote from: caleb. on December 31, 2013, 09:05:30 PM
I didn't mean it as in did T solve all your problems, lol. Anyone who has been on it long enough knows that's the furthest thing from true and not all the results are exactly pleasurable. 21 months in and I feel better about my body all in all, but I still have dysphoria and issues and whatnot. I just meant, focus on the fact that you are getting where you want to be physically. Though given that you've had some bad experiences and live in a place where you can't afford to stand out in terms of body language, I can understand why you're concerned about how you present to others.
I don't like when people label my behaviours feminine or masculine either - because it's sticking to gender roles and stereotypes (what we associate with men and what we associate with women), and I think that as a society we are, or should be, so far past that by now. I also hate how I do things exactly the same as I used to, but people interpret them differently, because it shows me their lack of objectivity. And it used to really piss me off on an intellectual level, but I realized, I'm not going to waste my energy wondering how other people interpret my behaviours. I understand that you need to watch out for your safety, but it's obviously stressing you out being pre-occupied with how others read your body language. I can't entirely relate to your situation as I live in a fairly safe place, but I'd worry simply about the practical - learning to defend yourself physically, perhaps investing in a weapon, and blending in only when necessary. Instead of intellectualizing it.
I'm not sure if I sound like a dick or not. I'm not trying to be judgmental or harsh, I just see that you're obviously having a hard time and seeing if I have any ideas that might help.
You don't sound dickish, judgmental or harsh to me at all. This is great advice--I've been trying out things along these lines, in terms of how I'm seeing life mentally and what mindset I'm in and it has helped a lot with the indignant confusion I get mired in. Also I completely relate wrt the frustration over lack of perspective from society, and I think you're right about trying not to stress so much over it, while making sure to have a means of self-defense.
It's kind of aggravating how family and friends and others can fall into an expectation that this process is supposed to make one all happy smiles all the time every time, and if one is not, then they start to doubt the necessity or validity of even doing this...do they not remember there's still a thing called life going on? LOL.
Quote from: Xren on January 01, 2014, 09:34:18 AM
It's kind of aggravating how family and friends and others can fall into an expectation that this process is supposed to make one all happy smiles all the time every time, and if one is not, then they start to doubt the necessity or validity of even doing this...do they not remember there's still a thing called life going on? LOL.
I so get this. That's part of the reason why I try to be as stealth as I can...people get so fascinated with the process and my response to it and they think EVERYTHING is somehow related to my transition. Like if I am sad or angry, "oh your transition is not going well atm?" If things are great "well you're finally being you, of course it's great!" If I do something "feminine", it's either "oh you haven't unlearned your socialization" or "you're embracing being born female and being proud of your difference!" If I do something "masculine" I'm either "getting in touch with the real Caleb!" or "overcompensating and being a douche." Like, maybe I am just doing what I want to do, and feeling how I feel, and it has nothing to do with transition.
I think there's basically no way any of us can win with other people. But if they hold us to these strict stereotypes and make everything about gender, chances are, they do it to themselves too. Essentialize themselves and their loved ones based on their sex. I figure if they want to limit their existence that's their choice lol.
Quote from: caleb. on January 01, 2014, 05:13:27 PM
I so get this. That's part of the reason why I try to be as stealth as I can...people get so fascinated with the process and my response to it and they think EVERYTHING is somehow related to my transition. Like if I am sad or angry, "oh your transition is not going well atm?" If things are great "well you're finally being you, of course it's great!" If I do something "feminine", it's either "oh you haven't unlearned your socialization" or "you're embracing being born female and being proud of your difference!" If I do something "masculine" I'm either "getting in touch with the real Caleb!" or "overcompensating and being a douche." Like, maybe I am just doing what I want to do, and feeling how I feel, and it has nothing to do with transition.
I think there's basically no way any of us can win with other people. But if they hold us to these strict stereotypes and make everything about gender, chances are, they do it to themselves too. Essentialize themselves and their loved ones based on their sex. I figure if they want to limit their existence that's their choice lol.
Are we the same person? :P It drives me crazy. I usually try to turn it around on them, but I end up looking like a jerk because they don't see what the big deal is, lol.
Quote from: caleb. on January 01, 2014, 05:13:27 PM
I so get this. That's part of the reason why I try to be as stealth as I can...people get so fascinated with the process and my response to it and they think EVERYTHING is somehow related to my transition.
Yes, that is completely annoying. Besides safety reasons I'm also stealth in 99% of situations because I get sick of people focusing just on the fact that I'm trans. Cis people usually fall into two categories in my experience...they're either really fascinated with the process or completely weirded out by it. Either way it seems if they know then it's what they categorize us as.
Quote from: Xren on December 24, 2013, 01:42:17 PM
In light of my ill-conceived comment on an old thread a few days ago, I have to explain myself.
From the beginning of my transition process, I've overreacted and taken personally the existence of people who define themselves as men who don't, and never will, have penises/do, and always will, have vaginas. I should not be personally upset by this because it's not my business, but it just seems...alienating to me. This is because don't think of "gender" the same way. I don't understand the concept of gender at all. I don't have a "gender." I have a sense of what my physical sex should be, and a set of personal preferences/traits that have nothing to to with what I sense should be part of my body. For my entire life, I have understood "male" and "female" to be nothing more than convenient words to describe people with certain sets of physical characteristics, which have nothing to do with clothing, hairstyle, behavior or interests. I over-react to the whole "genitals do not equal gender" idea SOLELY because it is invalidating to me. If I did not feel that there should be a penis/scrotum-shaped thing/no vagina down there, I would never have transitioned in the first place, and I would not identify as male. I may have gotten a hysterectomy and a breast reduction, but I would still have identified as female because I do not see gender--mine or anyone else's--as independent from body parts.
Pretty much the only thing that helps, when I'm getting insecure in my masculinity, is to close my eyes and sense my neural map, and the phantom penis it includes.
I had this discussion with you a long time ago. I was so, so wrong. I'm so sorry.