Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Last year, when I first went to the endocrinologist preliminary to beginning HRT, he asked: "Are you full time?"

I said, "I'm not sure how to answer the question. I go to work every day as you see me now." I was wearing a plain fitted women's blouse, women's pants, women's flats, and minimal makeup. "I make no effort to present as male." (I didn't pass as female.) "I don't know if this answers your question?"

He said, "Yes, you answered it." But I never found out if the answer was yes or no! Anyway, he told me to give a blood sample and come back in 2 weeks for my hormones, and that was that.

I wear exclusively 100% women's clothes. I can't remember the last time I even wore a man's shirt, let alone any other male clothing, probably about a year ago.

Pluses:
When I go out anywhere but work, I wear skirts/dresses, bras, heels, feminine ruffly blouses, dangly earrings, more makeup, etc. The works. And I never go to the men's room. Ladies' room only. I use my girlname as much as possible: at the hair salon, transgender clinic, therapist, laser place, many businesses, meeting anyone new, etc. Got my public library account in my girlname too. I recently started laser beard removal and have begun to pass somewhat. Well, a little.

Minuses:
I haven't explicitly come out at work, although I have been obviously gender-variant for almost 2 years now. I came out to just one friend at work, who is very supportive. These days I go to work in women's pants, flats, plain blouses, no bra (just a cami underneath), stud earrings, women's bracelets and rings, and what I consider a modest amount of makeup. Unfortunately, not having explicitly come out at work yet, I have no choice but to grit my teeth and use the men's room there. It's the only men's room I go to. I still have my original name where necessary (work, driver's license, checking account, credit card) because I haven't gotten to the legal name change.

I have been very slowly, gradually, feminizing my entire life all this time. I still have quite a ways to go to complete transition. So at what point can I be considered "full time"? Is there a clear definition of the concept?

There is not a single clear definition.  However, you should examine the Standards of Care (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Standards_of_Care) and think about the clinical criteria used to evaluating real life experience.  Whether you are GRS-bound or not, you may want to think about these criteria in deciding whether you are full-time or not:

A critical item in this list is the ability to be employed or function as a student or a community-service volunteer. Anyone who cannot do at least one of these will be considered socially impaired. Trouble functioning in society is a contraindication that you can live successfully full-time. 

Many clinitians consider a legal Name change to be a critical indicator of a true RLE. This is not to say that when legal authorities deny a name change, the RLE would be invalidated. Clinicians should take social prejudice into account when determining whether a legal change is needed. Nevertheless, some therapists count the legal name change as the marker indicating the start of RLE.

An important criterion is to show that people other than the therapist know that you are living in the desired gender role. Being "full-time in your head" is not acceptable for RLE. Driver's license, business cards, credit cards, and checkbook in the correctly gendered name are one form of evidence for this. Many therapists will also observe how you are dressed with you arrive for appointments.

If you dressing full-time at work but they don't know that you identify as female, then it is questionable whether you are full-time or part-time.

You are where I was 6 years ago.  I couldn't honestly identify as full-time until I told the IT Director that it was time to "do something about this 'Bob' thing."  And she was very accodating through the process.

Wait-- Is "full time" synonymous with "RLE"? This isn't clear to me. How do you define when "RLE" begins, anyway?

I function in society quite happily as a woman, in fact I would feel uncomfortable if I couldn't present female.

I see some trans people referring to their "boy mode" and "girl mode." I long ago ditched "boy mode" entirely. Now I have only "girl mode"-- of greater or lesser femme intensity, depending on circumstances. But if name change is the criterion, I need a lot more preparation first. See why I'm confused?

This question always leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Well, seeing as I'm constantly informed that my years dressing as male, using a male name, etc count for absolutely nothing by guys fortunate enough not to have a pretty face and soft voice - I'd say it's when you pass as your target gender. As you can tell, I'm really annoyed at being told this over and over by a guy who only a month ago was wearing skirts. ::)

Lisbeth, I have been told differently in a PM, that consistent use of target-gender restrooms is a major criterion for "full time."

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 06, 2007, 09:22:26 AMMany therapists will also observe how you are dressed with you arrive for appointments.

I don't see how that would prove anything. A girl could dress only for therapist appointments if all she wanted to do was convince the therapist. In fact, I've heard of girls who do exactly that, those who generally prefer boy-clothes and point to all the GGs out there who go around in boy-clothes all the time and never have their gender questioned. As a criterion, I have to rate this one as baloney.

If you define "full time in your head" as not having a name change on the DL yet, well that is an exacting standard. But my 24/7 100% female presentation is more than just "in my head," darling. It's objectively obvious.

Nero, I question whether "passing" could count as a criterion either. Plenty of trans people don't pass all that well but have gotten the name change, F on the DL, and all that. Besides, look how many of us--most of us--pass part of the time but not all of the time. Would you set the cutoff at passing 50% of the time? How is this measured? You can't poll everyone you walk by on the street. How is "passing" defined? If it's just a quick glance from a distance? Intense scrutiny from up close? Visual even if not vocal? "Passing" is such a slippery concept. "Passing" is kind of a sore point for many of us, best not emphasize it...

I'm pretty sure I have recently begun to pass a little. Which is a huge improvement, I never did before. One thing I can tell you is, I have been using ladies' rooms for over 2 years and have never been challenged once. Would that factor in somehow?

Quote from: Hypatia on July 06, 2007, 09:41:27 AM
Wait-- Is "full time" synonymous with "RLE"? This isn't clear to me. How do you define when "RLE" begins, anyway?

No, it's not, but I don't see you can be full-time without meeting most of the criteria for RLE.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 06, 2007, 09:49:25 AM
Lisbeth, I have been told differently in a PM, that consistent use of target-gender restrooms is a major criterion for "full time."

That would make sense to me, but it's not included in the SoC.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 06, 2007, 09:49:25 AM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 06, 2007, 09:22:26 AMMany therapists will also observe how you are dressed with you arrive for appointments.

I don't see how that would prove anything. A girl could dress only for therapist appointments if all she wanted to do was convince the therapist. In fact, I've heard of girls who do exactly that, those who generally prefer boy-clothes and point to all the GGs out there who go around in boy-clothes all the time and never have their gender questioned. As a criterion, I have to rate this one as baloney.

You're absolutely right, and that can make a therapist's job more difficult.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 06, 2007, 09:49:25 AM
If you define "full time in your head" as not having a name change on the DL yet, well that is an exacting standard.

I do not define it that way.  I think you misunderstood me.  You need to look at the sentence in front of it: "An important criterion is to show that people other than the therapist know that you are living in the desired gender role."  If nobody but you knows, then you ain't full-time.

Hypatia,

I very much appreciate that a standard of care exists and your therapist is being prudent.

However it appears the greatest marker if you are ready or not is if you consider yourself a female or not.

There are cisgender females that dress masculine so that I am not sure if wearing a dress makes you a female.

In addition it is prudent to take some safeguards to protect your livelihood.  Many employers are not flexible and many states only give lip service for "employee rights".  You can be "downsized" for any reason.
...............

Hyperia if you feel comfortable as a woman and you prefer to be viewed as a woman that speaks volumes!

Ask the endocrinologist on your next visit if you have qualified for "x" months as living as a woman while under their care.

Thanks for your thread.

Well RLE is a set period of ft by the gender services, to identify your suitability to live as your chosen gender, ft is just living as your your chosen gender, ie, presenting as female, and correcting incorect pronouns.

Im wearing all womens clothes as i type here at the uni it center. Jeans, hoodie, a vest top and correct undies. but my GIC wouldnt consider this FT. apparently to be full time as a woman, i must wear Makeup and a skirt or dress at all times, as all natal females do this apparently *cough* also, i physicall cant be anything but ft, as it takes more  effort to pass as male for me. id have to bind, cut my hair, and transition like a f2m to pass. heck, as a joke the other day i wore my old school suit and tie and my housemate told me i looked like a drag king, i couldnt pass in mens clothes, so is that FT? i dont know, not officially. but physically it is. Definitions are fluid.

24/7 not a minute less.

Buffy

lol, was wondering when someone would say that.

o/*\o buffy

Quote from: Rachael on July 06, 2007, 01:31:41 PM
...Im wearing all womens clothes as i type here at the uni it center. Jeans, hoodie, a vest top and correct undies. but my GIC wouldnt consider this FT. apparently to be full time as a woman, i must wear Makeup and a skirt or dress at all times, as all natal females do this apparently *cough* ...

I guess a MTF must be more feminine than a cisgender female to be full time.  By the way the most significant cisgender females in my life (wife, mom, and sister) do not wear a lot of makeup and I consider them very beautiful. 

I once asked my therapist, "So what do you consider fulltime?"

"Pick a date. I'll mark it down here as when you went fulltime," she replied.

That really caught be by surprise, lol. "Wait, shouldn't you tell ME when I qualified for it?"

"Pick a date. YOU tell ME. Last week? Today? What would you like?"

And I realized what she was doing. Only *I* really, really knew when I was fulltime. I wanted a criteria I could use, standards I could meet to buy a label rather than LIVE it. Putting the responsibility squarely on my shoulders showed me once again how this is something I need to BE, not just DO.

To answer for that for yourself I think you need to ask, "Am I living the way I want to now? Or are there still places and situations where I'm hiding?"

~Kate~

Quote from: Rachael on July 06, 2007, 01:31:41 PM
Im wearing all womens clothes as i type here at the uni it center. Jeans, hoodie, a vest top and correct undies. but my GIC wouldnt consider this FT. apparently to be full time as a woman, i must wear Makeup and a skirt or dress at all times, as all natal females do this apparently *cough* also, i physicall cant be anything but ft, as it takes more  effort to pass as male for me. id have to bind, cut my hair, and transition like a f2m to pass. heck, as a joke the other day i wore my old school suit and tie and my housemate told me i looked like a drag king, i couldnt pass in mens clothes, so is that FT? i dont know, not officially. but physically it is. Definitions are fluid.

Yes, well I'm wearing capris, a tank top, and flats with no makeup.  I am full-time.  I could give a rip what any therapist says.

Quote from: Kate on July 06, 2007, 02:02:19 PM
And I realized what she was doing. Only *I* really, really knew when I was fulltime. I wanted a criteria I could use, standards I could meet to buy a label rather than LIVE it. Putting the responsibility squarely on my shoulders showed me once again how this is something I need to BE, not just DO.

To answer for that for yourself I think you need to ask, "Am I living the way I want to now? Or are there still places and situations where I'm hiding?"

You grok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok) it, Kate.

Quote from: Wendy on July 06, 2007, 01:58:55 PM

Quote from: Rachael on July 06, 2007, 01:31:41 PM
...Im wearing all womens clothes as i type here at the uni it center. Jeans, hoodie, a vest top and correct undies. but my GIC wouldnt consider this FT. apparently to be full time as a woman, i must wear Makeup and a skirt or dress at all times, as all natal females do this apparently *cough* ...

I guess a MTF must be more feminine than a cisgender female to be full time.  By the way the most significant cisgender females in my life (wife, mom, and sister) do not wear a lot of makeup and I consider them very beautiful. 

er, no cheers, im being me, not what others want, and i dont give a crap if a therapist doenst consider me feminine enough, my GIC in sheffield basically says to be treated, one must wear a skirt or dress, and wear makeup to be considered that you are putting effort into your transition.
so i have to put effort into looking like i do with no effort? okay...

You may want to take a look at this thread: What constitutes 'fulltime'? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8198.0.html)

By the way, I was living as a female everywhere except work and even wearing female clothes at work, using a unisex restroom, but going by a male name.  For that last reason in particular, I still consider that as living parttime.  In 2 days, I'll have officially been fulltime for 1 year. Yayness! :D

Full time is living and breathing in the preferred gender 24/7/365 in every way, shape, and form that includes what goes on inside the home.  Anything less is a copout and you're just fooling yourself.

Steph

If you need to question whether what you are doing counts as fulltime or not, then you are definitely not fulltime.

Quote from: Melissa on July 06, 2007, 07:09:47 PM
If you need to question whether what you are doing counts as fulltime or not, then you are definitely not fulltime.

Which is exactly what my therapist was trying to tell me ;)

~Kate~

Quote from: Wendy on July 06, 2007, 01:19:02 PM
Hypatia,

I very much appreciate that a standard of care exists and your therapist is being prudent.

Sorry... Not sure what you're referring to. I mentioned my therapist only in passing, among a list of situations where I'm explicitly out fulltime. But I have not actually raised this question with my therapist yet. I was thinking I would ask it the next time I see him.

Quote from: Rachael on July 06, 2007, 01:31:41 PM

Well RLE is a set period of ft by the gender services

Gender services? Is that a British government thing? We don't really have any gender services as such here in America that I know of. For my endocrinology I go to the Whitman-Walker Clinic in Washington DC, which is a clinic established mainly for gay and lesbian patients (and now that they've taken over the patients of the defunct Free Clinic, they have lots of low-income cisgendered straights too). It includes a transgender clinic, and I get nothing there but HRT and bloodwork. As far as I can tell, they could give a toss what "full time" means--my former therapist referred me, that's the only thing that counts. Whatever way I choose to define myself, if I want the HRT, they'll supply it and that's that. My therapist has no connection with the clinic, he's part of a Presbyterian counseling ministry that handles all sorts of life issues, not specifically trans. These things are all privately owned--that's the USA for you. So the concept of "full time" is left vague and not stressed much, within my limited experience.

I wear skirts and heels and carry a purse whenever I visit my therapist, but again, he could give a toss either way-- the only reason I dress that way is because I like to dress that way all the time, not because anyone expects me to. Au contraire-- most American trans women think I'm a silly twit because I prefer being feminine of my own volition. If I get any pressure at all in this scene, it's pressure to be less feminine.

Quote from: Kate on July 06, 2007, 02:02:19 PM
"Pick a date. YOU tell ME. Last week? Today? What would you like?"

And I realized what she was doing. Only *I* really, really knew when I was fulltime.

Ahhh, thank you, Kate! That's what I like to hear. Having one's self-definition respected.

QuoteTo answer for that for yourself I think you need to ask, "Am I living the way I want to now? Or are there still places and situations where I'm hiding?"

Hmm, good question...
I am hiding nowhere. I'm out to my family. I'm openly femme at work. I mean, I'm walking around at work every day in a tight, fitted blouse with my obvious *BREASTS* out where no one can ignore them. I wear a dress and use the ladies' room everywhere except at work. The public library changed my account to my girlname. The only reason I haven't done the namechange, SRS, transition on the job, and all that yet is because I need more time to prepare, like completing my laser and electrolysis first... also because I hate to get divorced... so I'm not hiding at all. I just need more lead time to take the whole kaboodle all the way to completion. I'm going to ask my therapist, if I requested the SRS letter right now, would he give it? Or make me do anything more than what I've done? I've been seeing him for a whole year now.

Quote from: Melissa on July 06, 2007, 03:52:54 PMI was living as a female everywhere except work and even wearing female clothes at work, using a unisex restroom, but going by a male name.  For that last reason in particular, I still consider that as living parttime.

Uh... so I guess for me that means "no," huh... :(

Well, it stands to reason that people who have completed everything would set the bar higher, while those of us who still have a ways to go would prefer a looser definition.

I know there are many definitions of what "full time" means and I won't deny any of them. I guess that is for each person to decide for themselves. For me it means the moment one gives up living their pretend life and starts living as the person they truly are, for every minute of every day. It has nothing to do with how one is dressed, or makeup, or hormones or surgery. It has to do with no longer hiding who we are for the benefit of others.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Hypatia on July 06, 2007, 09:49:25 AM
Nero, I question whether "passing" could count as a criterion either. Plenty of trans people don't pass all that well but have gotten the name change, F on the DL, and all that. Besides, look how many of us--most of us--pass part of the time but not all of the time. Would you set the cutoff at passing 50% of the time? How is this measured? You can't poll everyone you walk by on the street. How is "passing" defined? If it's just a quick glance from a distance? Intense scrutiny from up close? Visual even if not vocal? "Passing" is such a slippery concept. "Passing" is kind of a sore point for many of us, best not emphasize it...

The reason I mentioned the passing issue is the fact that I've been told by other people that an FtM who is doing the exact same thing as I for example - dressing male, going by a male name, without hormones or a name change, is fulltime while I am not, because I don't pass. And this affects how far I can go as to fully living as male - I will not use a multiple stall men's room, I don't feel comfortable with a legal name change because I obviously look like a girl.

Frankly, I think as you do  - fulltime should not be a passing issue. It may be a bit different for MtFs - a non-passing MtF in a dress is obviously presenting as and wanting to be treated as a female, while I am just assumed to be a butch woman.
I won't consider myself fulltime until there's no question I look male.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 06, 2007, 07:38:46 PM

Well, it stands to reason that people who have completed everything would set the bar higher, while those of us who still have a ways to go would prefer a looser definition.

Not at all I consider that the bar is set to one hight for everyone.  When I went full time, I went full time, name change, work home, etc.

Steph

Unfortunately, it seems the better looking you were as your birth sex, the more it hurts your passability as your target sex without medical intervention.

Quote from: Nero on July 06, 2007, 08:06:07 PM
Unfortunately, it seems the better looking you were as your birth sex, the more it hurts your passability as your target sex without medical intervention.

You may have a point.

Steph

tsk tsk tsk  ::)

this is what fulltime means:

Quote from: Steph on July 06, 2007, 07:06:48 PM
Full time is living and breathing in the preferred gender 24/7/365 in every way, shape, and form that includes what goes on inside the home.  Anything less is a copout and you're just fooling yourself.

Steph

period.

I have been thinking of myself as fulltime - by my own understanding of the concept. Just wanted to check what it meant to others. I'm in agreement with those who say it means fully being and identifying as your target gender. I'm there, baby. Like I said elsewhere, I have no "boy mode," I'm all girl.

But I would rather not see it depend on name change or passing. It should mean who you're being, who you know you are and live in integral harmony with your true identity... not on outward signifiers. At home, out and about, 24/7, my whole expression, manner, and consciousness are of womanhood. New people I meet form their first impression of me as a woman. I am doing the maximum possible under my current circumstances and doing it thoroughly and consistently. Because that's truly who I am and that's all there is to it.

Quote from: Steph on July 06, 2007, 08:05:52 PMNot at all I consider that the bar is set to one hight for everyone.  When I went full time, I went full time, name change, work home, etc.

And that is exactly what I meant... that's setting the bar high for everyone... while many of us feel we're fulltime even without clearing all those hurdles.

As far as I know in practical terms, in the sort of transgender care I'm getting, the definition is pretty much a moot point. They can see that I'm psychologically there already... circumstances are getting in the way of some of those hurdles... but they can see my gender identification and expression are unambiguously woman, fulltime. If I were faking it, they could tell eventually, but my genuineness--from the depths of my soul-- is evident and that's what counts.

Quote from: Steph on July 06, 2007, 07:06:48 PM
Full time is living and breathing in the preferred gender 24/7/365 in every way, shape, and form that includes what goes on inside the home.  Anything less is a copout and you're just fooling yourself.

At least for me this is in direct opposition with stealth at times.

Does it make sense to out oneself to random people sending an email to the old address? Personally I think stealth is more important than telling everyone, who may tell others...

I suppose the day I went 'full time' was the day I finally realised any new people I met couldn't understand why I had a boy's name.

After experiencing repeatedly bemused looks for a few weeks I just stopped using my old name and went 'full time'.

MVER XXX

Legal name change and use of the correct restrooms are biggies. Being "femme" at work and using one's male name and the mens room is not "fulltime." This is like going to take a dip and only putting your little toe in the water.

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 06, 2007, 07:58:56 PM
For me it means the moment one gives up living their pretend life and starts living as the person they truly are, for every minute of every day. It has nothing to do with how one is dressed, or makeup, or hormones or surgery. It has to do with no longer hiding who we are for the benefit of others.

I would agree with your statement, except I don't know how "no longer hiding who we are for the benefit of others" applies to people who have gone stealth.

Quote from: Nero on July 06, 2007, 08:06:07 PM
Unfortunately, it seems the better looking you were as your birth sex, the more it hurts your passability as your target sex without medical intervention.

Not necessarily.
(https://www.susans.org/forums/gallery/3186_02_05_07_9_01_58.jpg)

Nero,
Actually, it depends what you mean by good looking.
Boyish men are considered very good looking.
Look at holliwood, 80% of holliwood or TV stars are in this mold.
Topher Grace, Keanu Reaves, Brad Pitt, Orlando Bloom, Johnny Depp, etc.
All of those, with very little HRT and a lasered beard, who pass very easily.

The manly man, the one that would pass with difficulty without FFS,
is rarely a leading man, he's the bad guy or the sidekick.

Even Schartnegger who you would think is a manly man, if you really look at him, its mainly muscles that make him look that way (he was a tiny teen), without the bulging masseter he had in his heydays, his face is rounder and rounder.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 07, 2007, 09:17:48 AM
Legal name change and use of the correct restrooms are biggies. Being "femme" at work and using one's male name and the mens room is not "fulltime." This is like going to take a dip and only putting your little toe in the water.

I disagree. You just don't know me. In fact, your reply might have come across as just a bit insulting. But this is all academic anyway, in my situation. None of my caregivers are even using the concept of "full time" operationally, so what does it matter? I just hear the term being mentioned a lot, so was curious about the different ways people understand it.

Quote from: mavieenrose on July 07, 2007, 03:29:15 AM
I suppose the day I went 'full time' was the day I finally realised any new people I met couldn't understand why I had a boy's name.

After experiencing repeatedly bemused looks for a few weeks I just stopped using my old name and went 'full time'.

So in this description it's synonymous with passing. I've already discussed above why passing cannot be the only criterion. This just shows the term means different things to different people. Hopefully everyone can respect everyone else's different points of view.

Quote from: Keira on July 07, 2007, 12:13:38 PM

Nero,
Actually, it depends what you mean by good looking.
Boyish men are considered very good looking.
Look at holliwood, 80% of holliwood or TV stars are in this mold.
Topher Grace, Keanu Reaves, Brad Pitt, Orlando Bloom, Johnny Depp, etc.
All of those, with very little HRT and a lasered beard, who pass very easily.

Wait... Orlando Bloom isn't full time yet?  Here I was calling him Orla.  *sigh* You just can't tell sometimes!

(Yes, this is a joke.  I find Orlando Bloom incredibly feminine and cannot understand why straight girls would want him because he looks like a girl!)

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 07, 2007, 11:28:02 AM
Not necessarily.
(https://www.susans.org/forums/gallery/3186_02_05_07_9_01_58.jpg)

was that you, Lisbeth? wow. I hope after hrt, i'll pass as good as you.

Quote from: Keira on July 07, 2007, 12:13:38 PM

Nero,
Actually, it depends what you mean by good looking.
Boyish men are considered very good looking.
Look at holliwood, 80% of holliwood or TV stars are in this mold.
Topher Grace, Keanu Reaves, Brad Pitt, Orlando Bloom, Johnny Depp, etc.
All of those, with very little HRT and a lasered beard, who pass very easily.

The manly man, the one that would pass with difficulty without FFS,
is rarely a leading man, he's the bad guy or the sidekick.

Even Schartnegger who you would think is a manly man, if you really look at him, its mainly muscles that make him look that way (he was a tiny teen), without the bulging masseter he had in his heydays, his face is rounder and rounder.

Yeah, I'm talking about the 'traditional' beauty ideals for men and women. The more masculine features, the more manly and handsome a man is considered, the more traditionally feminine features, the more a beautiful a woman is considered - that type of thing.
An MtF who looked like Lawrence Olivier would probably require extensive FFS to pass, and an FtM who looked like Marilyn Monroe would probably require a full beard to pass (which in ftm hrt terms usually means about a decade to grow). 

Living as your target gender every hour of the day is fulltime.

But, Nero, even in the old days, most of the leading man where boyish, Cary Grant, not really chiseled compared to the baddies, James Stewart, boyish in his 50's (See Its a wonderful life), there are so many examples.

The fact is that most of the men women are most attracted too are not hyper masculine in any way (except for their muscles, which has nothing to do with the shape of their face).

Look at most male models and tell which one needs FFS to pass, or even look very good, as a women.  Most would pass easily without HRT...

The sophisticated dashing man is always the boyish, charming, rogue. Look at Hugh Grant, boyish completely, its his trademark, no need for FFS there. Do women find him attractive, hey yes they do.

Some on screen men look more manly than those, but only because they're compared to men who look like boys, see Jude Law VS Clive Owen in "Closer". Clive looks more much male (the beard and attitude helps), but only because Jude is the ultimate in non-threatening boyishness. The casting was purposeful. If you look at just facial caracteristics, Clive has a face more boyish than the male average.

Neoteny, child like face, are more attractive in females and males. Women find most attractive the male face that are a more feminine than the male average. There is a German university that has a site that researches facial attractiveness and what traits permit to differentiate gender.

Quote from: Keira on July 07, 2007, 03:29:25 PM
But, Nero, even in the old days, most of the leading man where boyish, Cary Grant, not really chiseled compared to the baddies, James Stewart, boyish in his 50's (See Its a wonderful life), there are so many examples.

The fact is that most of the men women are most attracted too are not hyper masculine in any way (except for their muscles, which has nothing to do with the shape of their face).

Look at most male models and tell which one needs FFS to pass, or even look very good, as a women.  Most would pass easily without HRT...

The sophisticated dashing man is always the boyish, charming, rogue. Look at Hugh Grant, boyish completely, its his trademark, no need for FFS there. Do women find him attractive, hey yes they do.

Some on screen men look more manly than those, but only because they're compared to men who look like boys, see Jude Law VS Clive Owen in "Closer". Clive looks more much male (the beard and attitude helps), but only because Jude is the ultimate in non-threatening boyishness. The casting was purposeful. If you look at just facial caracteristics, Clive has a face more boyish than the male average.

Neoteny, child like face, are more attractive in females and males. Women find most attractive the male face that are a more feminine than the male average. There is a German university that has a site that researches facial attractiveness and what traits permit to differentiate gender.

good to know. :) I always just assumed that women went for the square, chiseled faced guys. Something I could never hope to aspire to. :laugh:

Quote from: Nero on July 07, 2007, 02:30:45 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 07, 2007, 11:28:02 AM
Not necessarily.
(https://www.susans.org/forums/gallery/3186_02_05_07_9_01_58.jpg)

was that you, Lisbeth? wow. I hope after hrt, i'll pass as good as you.

It was.  But look more closely and you will see how feminine my features were.

Quote from: Nero on July 07, 2007, 03:40:33 PM
I always just assumed that women went for the square, chiseled faced guys. Something I could never hope to aspire to. :laugh:

No, studies have shown that girls generally prefer men who look more feminine.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 07, 2007, 12:28:16 PM

Quote from: mavieenrose on July 07, 2007, 03:29:15 AM
I suppose the day I went 'full time' was the day I finally realised any new people I met couldn't understand why I had a boy's name.

After experiencing repeatedly bemused looks for a few weeks I just stopped using my old name and went 'full time'.

So in this description it's synonymous with passing. I've already discussed above why passing cannot be the only criterion. This just shows the term means different things to different people. Hopefully everyone can respect everyone else's different points of view.

Actually your comment is really, really interesting as I've never looked to 'pass' as a woman in my life.

Passing to me sounds like acting, like trying to learn a role, like imitating.... and for me my sole aim was to no longer 'pass' as male. 
It was about removing a layer, taking off a mask, it was certainly not about adding one...

I've always known I was female and quite frankly people who've known me since childhood always say I've stayed pretty much the same as I ever was (though much happier of course...)

Clearly we can only ever hope to fully understand our own personal experiences and motivations as we are all so different, and this is indeed why I would never dare claim to speak for others.

All I can say, is that for me the day my male name no longer made sense was the day I realised I broken out of my male prison, and the day I became 'full time' me.

MVER XXX

Quote from: Hypatia on July 06, 2007, 07:38:46 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 06, 2007, 03:52:54 PMI was living as a female everywhere except work and even wearing female clothes at work, using a unisex restroom, but going by a male name.  For that last reason in particular, I still consider that as living parttime.

Uh... so I guess for me that means "no," huh... :(

Well, it stands to reason that people who have completed everything would set the bar higher, while those of us who still have a ways to go would prefer a looser definition.

You think I had completed everything when I went fulltime?  Nope.  I had 2 laser sessions beforehand and that was it.  I have been doing laser sessions ever since and have also been getting electrolysis done as well for the past 3 months.  I had been on HRT for only 5 months.  Fulltime is fulltime, not part time or most of the time.  It's as simple as that.

The goal of going fulltime is to be female all the time without ever falling back on the male role so that you can know that you truly can live fulltime as a woman.  If you are still using the male role (by not coming out at work) as a crutch and calling yourself fulltime, then you are circumventing the entire point of the RLE and are thus not fulltime.

Quote from: Melissa on July 07, 2007, 07:09:41 PM
You think I had completed everything when I went fulltime?  Nope.  I had 2 laser sessions beforehand and that was it.  I have been doing laser sessions ever since and have also been getting electrolysis done as well for the past 3 months.  I had been on HRT for only 5 months.  Fulltime is fulltime, not part time or most of the time.  It's as simple as that.

The goal of going fulltime is to be female all the time without ever falling back on the male role so that you can know that you truly can live fulltime as a woman.  If you are still using the male role (by not coming out at work) as a crutch and calling yourself fulltime, then you are circumventing the entire point of the RLE and are thus not fulltime.

I agree absolutely .... full time is what it says, 24/7 .... and above all at work.

Surgical referrals demand usually 12 months RLE, and you owe it to yourself to not cheat on this by twisting the definition to your own ends.

In the UK obtaining a female birth certificate demands (in addition to diagnosis and medical treatments) living fulltime for 2 years .... and the evidence people usually use to prove this is "change of name deed", work payslip / paycheck in female name, bank statement in female name .... things you "can't argue with" !

I too went fulltime way way earlier than I'd planned as I felt I was ready for it just 6 months into hrt, two laser sessions behind me, just 5 weeks after breaking news to parents, 3-4 weeks after telling close work friends, 2 weeks after telling HR. 

I'd never been "part time" unless you count the two weekends when I checked out my "passibility" in public by doing buses, trains, town centre shopping, bars & restaurants (with a male friend), toilets, chatting to strangers ... and this was what convinced me that I could "do it" without hassle, embarassment, or adverse reaction from anyone.  I never did the TS/TV scene and clubs except way back as a 20-something. Guess I was lucky.

The day I went full time was the last day anybody, anywhere, ever saw me as anything other than female  :) .

Laura x

I'm not using the male role (though I've often felt used by it). I am plotting my escape from it. Stop making it sound like I'm trying to have it both ways. I'm trying to have it only one way.

hang on, so inside the home? i must wear makeup when i get up and slob around?

to me, the first thing i do when i get up, is spend a good hour slobbing around in a mens metalica teeshirt, and my knickers... omg im not FT! the horror! personally by a certain point, clothing matters little, as you are physically female, and really cant be a boy if you try.

Quote from: Rachael on July 09, 2007, 07:49:55 AM
hang on, so inside the home? i must wear makeup when i get up and slob around?

Soon as I get home I rip off that silly "girly" top, skirt / slacks / jeans, and put on my shirt and tie, flannel trousers, cuff-links & braces, and sensible brogues  ;D  !!!

Don't we all  ::) ?

Laura x

i did last night, but i still looked like a girl, and it was for a laugh...

For me it means to live 24 hours a day as what I am.  A woman.  Not 2 hrs or 4 hrs or 8 hrs or 3 days a week or seven times a month.  No.  Every day I'm a woman.  Live as woman.  The Society sees me as woman every day.  that's fulltime.

We need to differnetiate between clothes, and full time ,because IMO, one can be full time, and not wear female specific clothing all the time... heck, even wear some mens clothes (my fav baggy jeans) if one looks female 247, i think thats what ft is... A woman is not just made of what she wears...

Quote from: Rachael on July 09, 2007, 10:42:53 PM
We need to differnetiate between clothes, and full time ,because IMO, one can be full time, and not wear female specific clothing all the time... heck, even wear some mens clothes (my fav baggy jeans) if one looks female 247, i think thats what ft is... A woman is not just made of what she wears...

Good heavens!  You can't be full-time!  You take off your dress and makeup when you get in the shower!

Quote from: Hypatia on July 08, 2007, 11:18:40 AM
I'm not using the male role (though I've often felt used by it).

If you're not using the male role, then why are you not out at work yet?  Is it because you don't want to be seen as a transsexual?  Or to possibly lose your job?  Or is it because you don't want to take a chance of being read on a daily basis?  Sorry hon, but that's falling back on the male role.  When you do go fulltime, you face all those risks all the time for the rest of your life.  Until you are ready to face them, you won't truly know whether you can handle being fulltime as a woman.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 08, 2007, 11:18:40 AM
I am plotting my escape from it. Stop making it sound like I'm trying to have it both ways. I'm trying to have it only one way.

Once you have "escaped" from it, then you can consider yourself fulltime. :)

Quote from: Melissa on July 10, 2007, 12:43:42 PM
When you do go fulltime, you face all those risks all the time for the rest of your life.  Until you are ready to face them, you won't truly know whether you can handle being fulltime as a woman.

Yep. I was really guilty of fooling myself. I told myself I was fulltime... then I'd call myself by the male name during a service call "just this once to make things easier." Then I'd get dressed to go out and put on more androgynous clothes "to just not worry about whether I can pass or not for one night." I didn't tell my dentist I'm going by Kate now because "it's just my dentist, he doesn't really need to know!" I'd go to put on a real bra, then decide "I should be modest and wear the sports bra to flatten things more."

Truth be told, I just wasn't ready to face the risks of being seen as a guy trying to be a girl... probably because I still FELT like a guy trying to be a girl.

It took time... and a whole lotta "oh, the HECK with it!" effort to force through that and realize I'm still ME no matter how people see me. This is me, this is my life, and I'm going to show that to the world in every way I can now.

And you know what? We seem to be getting along JUST fine... ;)

~Kate~

I totally agree, its largely mental, being full time. one must truly belive you are female to suceed at it. otherwise, you will compromise, and fail. To be honest, ive found it rather easy. as it is right for me.

Quote from: Melissa on July 10, 2007, 12:43:42 PM

Quote from: Hypatia on July 08, 2007, 11:18:40 AM
I'm not using the male role (though I've often felt used by it).

If you're not using the male role, then why are you not out at work yet?

Because it takes time to prepare, it doesn't happen all at once. I'm working toward that goal.

QuoteIs it because you don't want to be seen as a transsexual?

I already am! No worries there.

QuoteOr to possibly lose your job?

Not a concern in my case. The management values me highly and doesn't want to lose me. This has already been amply demonstrated and I feel as job-secure as anyone can be.

QuoteOr is it because you don't want to take a chance of being read on a daily basis?

No, I don't care about that. I get read less and less now in public, so each new day is an improvement over the previous day. But in the workplace, it is not open to the public and everyone there knows me already, so getting read by them is beside the point.

QuoteSorry hon, but that's falling back on the male role.

No it isn't.

QuoteWhen you do go fulltime, you face all those risks all the time for the rest of your life.

I'm facing that right now. So what?

QuoteUntil you are ready to face them, you won't truly know whether you can handle being fulltime as a woman.

Baloney. I already am facing all of that every day and know I can handle it for the rest of my life, in fact, I can't wait to begin.

QuoteOnce you have "escaped" from it, then you can consider yourself fulltime. :)

I am preparing to make it official, but my looks and marital circumstances need more work first. I just got started on laser, and I will need a bit of electro when that's done. A divorce will be inevitable when I make my transition official, and no way am I just leaping into that unprepared.
At work, there's no sense in announcing it prematurely, and then not following through right away, because I believe in putting my money where my mouth is. I know my particular circumstances, where I'm at, and what I need from here on in. You don't know me and cannot pass any judgments on my situation.

i think i agree there, whats to escape other than the physical?
im happy with my 'male' interests, and having some male friends and shock horror, i like beer, and smokeing, i cant be a woman.
I know many women with the same interests as me, and habbits, and thier just as much women as any other. the trans emphasis on femininity and feminine traits for FT and ending your 'male life' are horsecrap, ive never been a man, so i have no 'male' life to end...

I'd just like to point out that if a thread is made in the form of a question, it is obvious that it is going to be answered based on each individual's opinion.  I don't think no one is passing judgements on anyone here.  We are merely expressing our points of view, that's all.  People don't have to agree with our viewpoints, but please let's keep in mind that different opinions is what make a thread a discussion.  Thanks.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Rachael on July 10, 2007, 03:28:24 PM
I totally agree, its largely mental, being full time. one must truly belive you are female to suceed at it. otherwise, you will compromise, and fail. To be honest, ive found it rather easy. as it is right for me.

Yes. Exactly. I have no doubts about my womanhood. It's the most natural, comfortable feeling in the world. It continues to grow stronger every day. I am way past the point of no return already.

I would like to quote from a poem by Meena, the founder of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan:

I'm the woman who has awoken
I have found my path and I WILL NEVER TURN BACK

i like that sentiment, if only the western word had such troubles as the middle east and islam for women, equality would be demanded more powerfully. 3rd wave feminism ftw :D
[/offtopic]

Quote from: Hypatia on July 10, 2007, 07:33:35 PM
I am preparing to make it official, but my looks and marital circumstances need more work first. I just got started on laser, and I will need a bit of electro when that's done. A divorce will be inevitable when I make my transition official, and no way am I just leaping into that unprepared.
At work, there's no sense in announcing it prematurely, and then not following through right away, because I believe in putting my money where my mouth is. I know my particular circumstances, where I'm at, and what I need from here on in. You don't know me and cannot pass any judgments on my situation.

You asked a question and I provided an answer.  I was not judging you, but I was giving my assessment of your situation based on what *you* stated.  You are correct that I don't know you and I can only go by what you tell me, so if If you are not prepared for an answer you may not like, then don't ask a question.  This has happened several times with past members that ask for an opinion and then they don't accept any answer that they don't want to hear.  Almost every one of them left in frustration.  It seems you wanted us to tell you that you are fulltime, but that didn't happen, so your responses became very defensive.  I have given my answer to your question with your own best interests in mind.  If you are going to call yourself as fulltime, then there was really no point in asking the question in the first place.  My opinion still remains that what you described is not fulltime.

Here's my own experience:  I came out to HR about 45 days after I started my new job.  I worked with them to set a schedule for everything including coming out to various people.  I ended up going fulltime 3 weeks later.  Before coming out, I had an androgynous appearance, wore women's clothes, didn't hide my female mannerisms, made friends with mostly women, talked to people in a fairly feminine voice and manner and I was frequently ma'amed outside the building while appearing that way.  Because I was still going by a male name and referred to as a "he" at work, that was androgynous to me.  I considered myself fulltime when I no longer needed to pretend to be a man and I had no more coming out to do.  As of 3 days ago, I have been fulltime for a year now.

I am finalizing my divorce now, so don't think I didn't face the same thing.  Also, I'm still working the same job.

As I stated, this is my opinion and I was only trying to be helpful in my posts.  In the future I will refrain from contributing to your posts.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 10, 2007, 07:33:35 PM
At work, there's no sense in announcing it prematurely, and then not following through right away, because I believe in putting my money where my mouth is...

Keep in mind that employers often *appreciate* advance warning.

~Kate~

discreatly informing employers, and coming out at work, arnt the same thing...

I am so sorry, Melissa, for having spoken insolently! Please pardon my presumption and readmit me into your good graces, ma'am. I didn't think I'd said anything to you that was offensive. I just don't want to be talked down to. I do welcome hearing all opinions on this, if they're respectful. I felt like some of the posts were talking down to me. I've noticed so many trans people try to make themselves feel superior by making others feel inferior and I'm kind of sensitive about that. I also think a lot of the less fortunate ones are made to feel so inferior they don't even come around at all. If I were easily intimidated, I would stay away too because this path is not for the faint of heart. But I strongly believe in myself and do not put up with put-downs. If it was not your intention to put me down, then I hope and believe we can work through our differences like ladies.

Otherwise, I'm grateful to everyone who has shared here. One thing I've learned is that there are a lot of opinions on this subject that don't all agree with one another. So I don't think any one person's interpretation can be final or definitive. The SOC themselves allow for flexibility in interpretation of an individual's course in life. Like I said above, I agree with what Kate posted, the individual ought to be allowed to assess it for herself. If I didn't strongly believe in myself, I couldn't have embarked on this challenging journey in the first place. I respect everyone else's personal boundaries, and always defend my own. I would never never put anyone down, or diss another person's sincere understanding of their life, while at the same time I'm primed to speak up for myself vigorously when I feel disrespected or misunderstood. At times I've had to choose between fighting back or crumpling into despair, and the many attacks I've withstood on the way here have left me wary and on the alert; there could be situations where my life may depend on it (not that this is one, of course). I tend to doubt that anyone lacking a healthy sense of self would stand a chance in this, so once again please pardon me for any unwarranted touchiness.

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2007, 01:07:11 PM
Keep in mind that employers often *appreciate* advance warning.

Of course. How long in advance?

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 12:30:29 AM

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2007, 01:07:11 PM
Keep in mind that employers often *appreciate* advance warning.

Of course. How long in advance?

I spoke to my employer, HR Department about 6 months before I planned to transition. I think I should have done this earlier, as 6 months on hormones had started to change my body to the almost noticeable stage.

There are many things to discuss, name change, restrooms, time of for medical requirements, changing access cards, changing computer logins, name badges, the list is endless. We also discussed how people both internal and external would be informed and who and when this would be done. The HR Manager (a woman) also did lots of research and got copies of the relevant UK legislation and translated this into what was required for the Company.

The Company I worked for where great, they involved me in changing the Discrimination / Equal opportunities policies etc, hired a Gender Consultant / Counsellor to help the Senior Managers (and also talk to anyone who wanted help after the comming out sessions). She also helped me draft a letter to all staff and had a session with all the women on site to talk about fears and concerns.

I had Monthly meetings with the HR Dept and then weekly meetings during the month when I officially came out. I left work for a month (FFS) came back and everything was ready for my return, computers, badges, new work clothes, gate passes, company car insurance, medical insurance.

I guess just turning up on the first day of RLE wearing a pink skirt, lime green top, heels and saying my name was now "Rebecca" , it may not have gone so smoothly and there would have been a much lower level of acceptance, tollerance.

It pays to talk in the long run....

Buffy

exactly, people like to be kept in a loop, even if they dont know it exists yet, missing out on things, and demanding new work stuff soon as, is a bit annoying for folk, buffy is right. I told my boss 4 weeks before i did, but its informal to a larger extent (bar work) and not exactly requireing any new situation other than awareness... tho everyone knew by the time i told them >.> id changed too much.

Quote from: Rachael on July 06, 2007, 01:31:41 PM
Well RLE is a set period of ft by the gender services, to identify your suitability to live as your chosen gender, ft is just living as your your chosen gender, ie, presenting as female, and correcting incorect pronouns.

Im wearing all womens clothes as i type here at the uni it center. Jeans, hoodie, a vest top and correct undies. but my GIC wouldnt consider this FT. apparently to be full time as a woman, i must wear Makeup and a skirt or dress at all times, as all natal females do this apparently *cough* also, i physicall cant be anything but ft, as it takes more  effort to pass as male for me. id have to bind, cut my hair, and transition like a f2m to pass. heck, as a joke the other day i wore my old school suit and tie and my housemate told me i looked like a drag king, i couldnt pass in mens clothes, so is that FT? i dont know, not officially. but physically it is. Definitions are fluid.

I totally agree with your comments Rachael. The problem with the type of U.K NHS GIC psychiatrists is the fact that they are middle aged men (or older) who know little about fashion or the type of clothes a women of today would wear in the high street and the shoppping mall.

Many of the psychiatrists expect old school skirt suits and piles of make up. I've seen the type of patients they expect entering the GIC clinic and you can spot them a mile away, and they don't look female...to me it's like seeing badly dressed ->-bleeped-<-s..

I've turned up to a London NHS GIC clinic in a pink hoodie, Jeans, Pink and white trainers and no make up. I have my long blonde hair loose and no jewlery apart from a small ladies watch or earings. I am percieved as a genetiic female by people in the waiting room. The receptionists asks 'who are you here to see' and has no idea I am visiting the gender clinic. I sit down face to face with patients who wear their clothes like a standard uniform (black skirt suit, heavy make up, red nail varnish and 2 inch court shoes) ......they are 'read' emmediately by staff and delivery workers and any 'real life test' wouldn't apply to them as the majority look like 'men in drag' and would possibly only find employment as a 'transperson'.....I then have to ask the question is this a real life test? It's almost like they have no perception of what a genetic female looks like and it's characterchure of what they think a woman should look like.

There is a lot of truth in what you say Rachael regarding wearing men's clothes. I too look like a girl in men's clothes if I attempt wearing men's clothes, although it's a lomg time since I did it. It's like a white dot on a black background, the dull male clothes will highlight your femininity. People who wear overlty feminine clothes sometimes fall flat as the clothes work the other way and highlight the masculine feature's the person may have.

I think you should basically wear female clothes at all times but wear what really works for you no matter if it's at a clinic appointment or not and you will look more feminine and feel more confident. The dinosaurs at the gender clinics will eventually die out and new younger psychiatrists (especially if they are female) will have more idea about fashion and the concept of what a 'real life test' is all about and for me it's about appearing and being percieved as female in every situation..

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn125%2FBelladonna_06%2FDSC00693.jpg&hash=bd85c5644361c181e0c446bf7544c564305a0f37)/me s->-bleeped-<-s, my old school suit... i think i might be ft, weather i like it or not :)

Folks need to remember that wearing the appropriate clothing forms but a small part of living full time.  Clothing does not make you a man or a woman, and it does not necessarily reflect the gender of the person wearing the cloths.  As has been pointed out Jeans and Tee shirts are appropriate for both genders and in many places men and women both wear make-up.

Full time means that all your credentials have been changed this includes official name change and the same reflected on credit cards, drivers license, health cards, banks, mortgage companies, etc. other places of business, work, and anywhere your name is important.

Full time means gender appropriate pronouns are used, your life is now lived as a woman or man would live theirs, and yes this includes living in your house, not necessarily the way you dress in the house, but you must answer the door, the phone in the appropriate gender. no cheating, no going back to male/female mode when it's convenient, or the going gets tough, or you are in a rush, or you have a meeting with a special client, a doctor, a dentist, your mom, your, dad, the minister, the police, hairdresser, going out with friends, you have to go pee, etc, etc, etc.    If you do that then I would seriously get back to my therapist as you are obviously something other than TS.

Living full time is also vital for Therapists, surgeons, and more importantly the person concerned to confirm beyond a doubt that they are the gender they say/feel they are, and not want to be.  As far as I'm personally concerned there are only two ways and that is you either are a woman(man) or you are not, notice there is no "want/like to be" in that statement.

Having said all that, living full time takes a lot of pre-planning, and preparation that includes "coming out", HRT, counseling, and so on.  Remember the first day of living full time is the first day of your new life, a life that was meant to be.

Just my thoughts.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on July 12, 2007, 07:30:17 AM
Full time means that all your credentials have been changed this includes official name change and the same reflected on credit cards, drivers license, health cards, banks, mortgage companies, etc. other places of business, work, and anywhere your name is important.

Awl, darn it... so I'm NOT fulltime yet? No fair, lol! The only thing I haven't done yet is make the name legal (trying to find $1,250 to do it), BUT... I'm Kate to everyone I know and deal with, INCLUDING at work (email system, phone system, all vendors know me as Kate, I'm introduced as Kate, etc.), friends, relatives, dentists, doctors, strangers...

I just always inform people like doctors and dentists that I've transitioned, and I'm going by "Kate" now, but it's not legal yet. Everyone has been kind and simply made a note of that in their records. They address me as Kate, but know to use the male name for insurance for the moment.

LOL, I mean put it this way: as I sit here typing this, the receptionist just asked me if I want a call from so-and-so (some unknown telemarketer) who asked for "Katie," lol... if the telemarketers know I exist now, I gotta be "fulltime" ;)

~Kat(i)e~

I completely understand where you're coming from Kate :)  Just the name change left, another part of the preparation.

Wow that's expensive, but I guess that every place is different as far as costs go.

Steph

its a pleasure for me to walk into the doctors, to get blood taken, then go to the pharmacy and pick up a script, in jeans (not even that tight) and a mens uni hoodie, and nobody bats an eyelid that im a girl, or its Rachael A White**** on my script. People are seeing a human being, and im doing stuff id have to do even if i was a guy (Granted not the blood tests for this reason) Only now it feels less of a chore, and more of just LIFE. Im starting to live now, i can smile, hold my head up high, get checked out, i walkw ith a spring in my step. Full time, isnt as much official, but as when you area congruent person 24/7, when you are living day to day and arnt hateing ever second, surely thats the whole point of this?

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 12:30:29 AM

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2007, 01:07:11 PM
Keep in mind that employers often *appreciate* advance warning.

Of course. How long in advance?

In my case, it was more than a year.  In fact it was way before I had even decided to transition.  Every time we hired a new HR manager, I would have a talk with her.  The last one we hired (post transition) was surprised I had ever been a guy.

Quote from: Steph on July 12, 2007, 07:30:17 AM
Full time means that all your credentials have been changed this includes official name change and the same reflected on credit cards, drivers license, health cards, banks, mortgage companies, etc. other places of business, work, and anywhere your name is important.

I don't agree.  Your use name matters far more than your legal name.  In the post-9/11 world of government intrusion, the Department of Homeland Security is trying to put a stop to that, though.

Quote from: Rachael on July 12, 2007, 09:39:46 AM
>...

Full time, isnt as much official, but as when you are a congruent person 24/7, when you are living day to day and arnt hateing ever second, surely thats the whole point of this?

I understand what you mean, and full time isn't an "Official" state, just that portion (one year)required by the SOC.

Steph

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 12:30:29 AM
I am so sorry, Melissa, for having spoken insolently! Please pardon my presumption and readmit me into your good graces, ma'am. I didn't think I'd said anything to you that was offensive. I just don't want to be talked down to. I do welcome hearing all opinions on this, if they're respectful. I felt like some of the posts were talking down to me. I've noticed so many trans people try to make themselves feel superior by making others feel inferior and I'm kind of sensitive about that. I also think a lot of the less fortunate ones are made to feel so inferior they don't even come around at all. If I were easily intimidated, I would stay away too because this path is not for the faint of heart. But I strongly believe in myself and do not put up with put-downs. If it was not your intention to put me down, then I hope and believe we can work through our differences like ladies.

Of course. :)  I just didn't want to feel like I was being attacked for trying to help.  By the way, I don't feel "superior", nor see you as "inferior", not see anybody else that way.  I actually see just about everyone as an equal unless they prove themselves to not be.  For instance, I talk to bosses at work as if they are just coworkers.  I talk to other women on the same level I am.  The truth is, I'm sure you are in a much tougher position at the moment than I am.  I already passed through that hell and you are still in it, so the fact that you are still going on shows great tenacity and fortitude. 

The main reasons I'm still at this website are to offer help based upon what I have already gone through and to keep in touch with others while I await my surgery date next March.  Most people I deal with in person don't even know I'm TS and I rarely talk about it with those who do know, so this is one of my few remaining outlets to be a part of the community.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 12:30:29 AM

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2007, 01:07:11 PM
Keep in mind that employers often *appreciate* advance warning.

Of course. How long in advance?

I guess that depends on your employer, and how you're transitioning.

In my case, there never was a "fulltime date," as I sorta just eased into this over many months. So I basically waited until the HRT changes became a pain to hide (breasts mostly), then let management know what I was doing. I didn't say, "I'm coming back as a woman on monday," or anything. I said something like, "I'm changing my sex, it's going to take time, so you'll slowly see me evolve over the upcoming months into a woman - including how I dress and present myself. I'm NOT going to just show up one day in a skirt and heels, but I'll become increasingly feminine over time. Once I'm comfortable, I'll legally change my name to Kate."

It worked pretty well, except that some people started calling me Kate right away, and it caught on... so before long I just insisted *everyone* use it to be consistent. Then since people were using it, I HAD to change the email, lol... and the phones.. and order stuff as Kate, lol... I mean what's a girl to do?

Clothing went the same way, where I was ambiguous for awhile, but people seemed to want clarity... so I just went for it before long.

So I ended up in the unusual situation where I was fulltime at work, but ambiguous at home (neighbors, shopping, etc.), lol.

But they really appreciated the warning, as they used the time to write new policies regarding discrimination, as well as hurrying the completion of a new bathroom they were working on - just in case there were objections. In the end, everything went better than I'd ever hoped for, but still... I'm sure they appreciated the time to plan ahead.

~Kate~

Quote from: Buffy on July 12, 2007, 01:03:08 AM
I spoke to my employer, HR Department about 6 months before I planned to transition. I think I should have done this earlier, as 6 months on hormones had started to change my body to the almost noticeable stage.

There are many things to discuss, name change, restrooms, time of for medical requirements, changing access cards, changing computer logins, name badges, the list is endless. We also discussed how people both internal and external would be informed and who and when this would be done. The HR Manager (a woman) also did lots of research and got copies of the relevant UK legislation and translated this into what was required for the Company.

The Company I worked for where great, they involved me in changing the Discrimination / Equal opportunities policies etc, hired a Gender Consultant / Counsellor to help the Senior Managers (and also talk to anyone who wanted help after the comming out sessions). She also helped me draft a letter to all staff and had a session with all the women on site to talk about fears and concerns.

Well I told HR precisely 2 weeks before going "full time", close colleagues and my direct boss a couple of weeks earlier ....

Only one girl colleague (my best friend at work) knew more than two months in avance.

I wasn't planning on RLE so soon, but "telling people" and attempting "part time" as Laura just convinced me that the concept of "part time" was pointless  :-\ .

HR manager and his deputy were on site (dealing with redundancies in our sister company) when I took the opportunity to tell - by "hand delivered" letter, and I was given time at the end of the same day for a "chat".

Angus, head of HR, is sociable in "real life", but very methoic and officious workwise ... so I wondered what his line would be, and I'd presented an agenda in my letter - telling colleagues, telling clients, name changes, time off for surgeries, discrimination policy, toilets ....

Well he looked at me, shrugged his shoulders and said "let's not make a big deal out of this !".

The company was not going to re-vamp its equallity policy to specifically encompass "TS" as I was in all likelyhood the only TS person they would ever encounter (reallistic maybe, despite being a multi-continental enterprise employing 10,000+ workers !). 

Existing legal provisions would cover me, and of course they would feel duty bound to protect me from any harrassment or discrimination I might face, just like gay guys and women who had come out in the UK workforce, and they would do whatever was neccessary to ensure I was treated with respect.

Regarding "an agenda", well lets just take things "one at a time" and deal with them as they come, toilets - what's the issue ?, paid leave for surgeries .... well its your earned entitlement, it really isn't a big deal !!!

Fifteen minutes was all I needed with HR, and they were absolutely correct in saying it wasn't "an issue" unless we chose to make it so .... everything resolved ever so smoothly .... I got over 4 months full sick pay for my GRS, "during-transition" professional psychotherapy at the companies cost ($250/hr !), and a phased return to full time working. 

Re-writing company equallity policy, lecturing employees about me (cringe !), having prolonged HR meetings, would have eaten up unfair and needless costs, especially considering how generous they were towards me !

As our UK HR manager said "Its no big deal !" .... and it wasn't  :) .

Laura x

Quote from: Berliegh on July 12, 2007, 04:58:58 AMI've turned up to a London NHS GIC clinic in a pink hoodie, Jeans, Pink and white trainers and no make up. I have my long blonde hair loose and no jewlery apart from a small ladies watch or earings. I am percieved as a genetiic female by people in the waiting room. The receptionists asks 'who are you here to see' and has no idea I am visiting the gender clinic.

That's wonderful! Wow!

QuoteI sit down face to face with patients who wear their clothes like a standard uniform (black skirt suit, heavy make up, red nail varnish and 2 inch court shoes) ......they are 'read' emmediately by staff and delivery workers and any 'real life test' wouldn't apply to them as the majority look like 'men in drag' and would possibly only find employment as a 'transperson'.....I then have to ask the question is this a real life test? It's almost like they have no perception of what a genetic female looks like and it's characterchure of what they think a woman should look like.

Maybe they wear heavy makeup because otherwise their beards would show, and then forget about presenting at all! Maybe the only way they can possibly present is with heavy makeup.

It seems like everyone   
a) is blonde or with light-colored hair
b) does not wear makeup
b) couldn't pass as a boy if she tried.

I wonder-- am I the only one who has black hair? Because for me it's either makeup or forget about the whole thing. Laser has begun to help, but I still need a lot more. It will take about a year to complete, and then the electro starts... I started the poll about skin color because it seemed nearly everyone else is fair, I'm the only dark one. Ever get that feeling you've wandered into someone else's party by mistake?

Then I think there are probably a lot more who have difficulty passing than the very successful ones--but they don't post here.

And at times I've come across the opinion that "the only REAL transsexuals are those who already look like a girl without even trying and everybody else is nothing but a crummy man in a dress." You know this theory? Either J. Michael Bailey started spreading this idea or it was already being said on the street and Bailey just wrote it up.

I was going to write about the challenges with looks that I face in real life but on second thought, never mind. Why bring more pain on myself than I already have...

Melissa, you're not the one who should stop posting. I think I'm the one who needs to shut up because to be honest no way can my experiences come anywhere near what everyone else is sharing. Melissa, I didn't mean to attack you, honey, as a matter of fact I have been thinking a lot about the information you gave and trying to assimilate it, thank you for contributing.

So what am I doing trans then? Why do I have such undeniable feelings of my own womanhood and loathing for the maleness that has stigmatized my life until now? Why would I rather kill myself than go back to living as male? I don't know what this all means. Nothing makes sense any more.

I'm glad Susan's is such a nice place, because at another TG message board, when I started to feel suicidal out of frustration, they all got really mad at me and piled on to condemn me for saying that, which would make me feel a lot worse if I gave a danm about their opinions of me.

Then there's the helpful advice from young transitioners that someone like me who is beginning in her 40s should just give it up and go back to being male. Gee, thanks so much.

QuoteThere is a lot of truth in what you say Rachael regarding wearing men's clothes. I too look like a girl in men's clothes if I attempt wearing men's clothes, although it's a lomg time since I did it. It's like a white dot on a black background, the dull male clothes will highlight your femininity. People who wear overlty feminine clothes sometimes fall flat as the clothes work the other way and highlight the masculine feature's the person may have.

Well, granted that works for some individuals, but for others... it does not work. In fact, for the unlucky ones, nothing works!

QuoteI think you should basically wear female clothes at all times but wear what really works for you no matter if it's at a clinic appointment or not and you will look more feminine and feel more confident.

Hypothetical question: What if there were a woman who actually felt more confident in a skirt or dress? No, that never happens in real life, except I suppose for the wretched, self-deluded "man in a dress."

Quotethe concept of what a 'real life test' is all about and for me it's about appearing and being percieved as female in every situation..

Or in other words, "passing"... right? Maybe I was wrong all along, and passing is really what it's all about.

Quote from: mavieenrose on July 07, 2007, 04:23:44 PMActually your comment is really, really interesting as I've never looked to 'pass' as a woman in my life.

Passing to me sounds like acting, like trying to learn a role, like imitating.... and for me my sole aim was to no longer 'pass' as male. 
It was about removing a layer, taking off a mask, it was certainly not about adding one...

I've always known I was female and quite frankly people who've known me since childhood always say I've stayed pretty much the same as I ever was (though much happier of course...)

Clearly we can only ever hope to fully understand our own personal experiences and motivations as we are all so different, and this is indeed why I would never dare claim to speak for others.

All I can say, is that for me the day my male name no longer made sense was the day I realised I broken out of my male prison, and the day I became 'full time' me.

Ma vie, honey, I'm a little confused here, please help me out. I have been rereading this post, but all I can see described is exactly the phenomenon that others call "passing." Have you redefined the meaning of "passing" to mean something other?

Anyway, sorry I bothered everyone.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM
It seems like everyone   
a) is blonde or with light-colored hair
b) does not wear makeup
b) couldn't pass as a boy if she tried.

I have naturally dark brown hair on top of my head.  On my face, it was a mixture of dark brown and blonde.  When I first started transitioning, I had to put on heavy makeup to cover my beard.  Once laser got rid of most of the dark hair, I was able to lighten it considerably and even go without makeup with the blonde hairs shaved.  I've had a bunch of electrolysis on my face too, so the blonde hair is reduced considerably too.  The truth is, I still have dark hairs in various spots, but they are so fine that shaving hides them.   Prior to transition, I had no problems when trying to pass as a boy.  After nearly a year and a half on hormones, I don't.  It's just the hormones and the age I started (28).

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM
I wonder-- am I the only one who has black hair? Because for me it's either makeup or forget about the whole thing. Laser has begun to help, but I still need a lot more. It will take about a year to complete, and then the electro starts... I started the poll about skin color because it seemed nearly everyone else is fair, I'm the only dark one.

I do have fair skin, but I also had dark hair.  That's why I went with laser.  Facial hair used to bother me more than anything else inclduding genitals.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM
Then I think there are probably a lot more who have difficulty passing than the very successful ones--but they don't post here.

That seems to be the trend.  I don't know why.  Or perhaps they're here, but too afraid to put their own picture up.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM
And at times I've come across the opinion that "the only REAL transsexuals are those who already look like a girl without even trying and everybody else is nothing but a crummy man in a dress." You know this theory? Either J. Michael Bailey started spreading this idea or it was already being said on the street and Bailey just wrote it up.

A real transsexual is somebody who identifies as the gender which is opposite the sex they were born as.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM
I was going to write about the challenges with looks that I face in real life but on second thought, never mind. Why bring more pain on myself than I already have...

Sharing about yourself brings more understanding about you as an individual and makes it easier to relate to you.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM
Melissa, you're not the one who should stop posting. I think I'm the one who needs to shut up because to be honest no way can my experiences come anywhere near what everyone else is sharing. Melissa, I didn't mean to attack you, honey, as a matter of fact I have been thinking a lot about the information you gave and trying to assimilate it, thank you for contributing.

It's ok.  I'm not mad.  That's why I'm still responding to you. ;)

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM
So what am I doing trans then? Why do I have such undeniable feelings of my own womanhood and loathing for the maleness that has stigmatized my life until now? Why would I rather kill myself than go back to living as male? I don't know what this all means. Nothing makes sense any more.

Simple, that is how we have all felt at some point.  It just means that transitioning is probably right for you.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM

QuoteI think you should basically wear female clothes at all times but wear what really works for you no matter if it's at a clinic appointment or not and you will look more feminine and feel more confident.

Hypothetical question: What if there were a woman who actually felt more confident in a skirt or dress? No, that never happens in real life, except I suppose for the wretched, self-deluded "man in a dress."

I like wearing skirts/dresses.  I'll wear other clothes too, but I like wearing something I was denied for so long.  Plus i find it comfortable. Nobody sees me as a "man in a dress either".  Don't worry, I know some GGs like wearing dresses and skirts too.  I really dislike some of these rules that some people come up with.  In fact, I tend to defy just about every one of the rules I have heard TS people say (like you have to do so and so to pass).  I say just be yourself, wear what you want, and be happy.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM

Quote from: mavieenrose on July 07, 2007, 04:23:44 PMActually your comment is really, really interesting as I've never looked to 'pass' as a woman in my life.

Passing to me sounds like acting, like trying to learn a role, like imitating.... and for me my sole aim was to no longer 'pass' as male. 
It was about removing a layer, taking off a mask, it was certainly not about adding one...

I've always known I was female and quite frankly people who've known me since childhood always say I've stayed pretty much the same as I ever was (though much happier of course...)

Clearly we can only ever hope to fully understand our own personal experiences and motivations as we are all so different, and this is indeed why I would never dare claim to speak for others.

All I can say, is that for me the day my male name no longer made sense was the day I realised I broken out of my male prison, and the day I became 'full time' me.

Ma vie, honey, I'm a little confused here, please help me out. I have been rereading this post, but all I can see described is exactly the phenomenon that others call "passing." Have you redefined the meaning of "passing" to mean something other?

Anyway, sorry I bothered everyone.

I think it's just a round about way of saying "Just be yourself, rather than try to follow some stereotype.  After all, aren't you are mentally a woman?  If so, just do what comes naturally."

Quote from: Melissa on July 13, 2007, 01:42:20 AMI say just be yourself, wear what you want, and be happy.

I always believed that too... and it worked well for me as long as I kept to myself or only associated with GG women who believed the same... it's called into doubt only among other transsexuals for some reason I've never understood.

The funny thing is, I'd thought I had begun to have real hope of... whatever you call it, just being in external life the woman who I am, without a ton of makeup, especially after beginning laser, and was looking forward to a brighter future.

QuoteI think it's just a round about way of saying "Just be yourself, rather than try to follow some stereotype.  After all, aren't you are mentally a woman?  If so, just do what comes naturally."

That is exactly what I have been believing with all my heart, and living in my daily life. That is why I felt such hope and promise for the future, and as I posted recently, I had started to feel I'm out of the woods and the path before me is open and sunlit. The contradictions because the changes in my external life aren't moving fast enough to keep up, which is what this thread's discussion has focused for me, are causing me to question everything. But this is turning into a hijack of my own thread, changing into topics best left for another thread, so mods can go ahead and lock or delete this one, I feel it's served its purpose and run its course, thanks to everyone for sharing.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM
It seems like everyone   
a) is blonde or with light-colored hair
b) does not wear makeup
b) couldn't pass as a boy if she tried.

I wear eyeliner occasionally,
i have black hair, or didnt you look at my avitar?
and i can pass as a boy with a lot of effort, but it takes effort... especially binding and supressing my desire for straight perfect cute hair...

Quote

And at times I've come across the opinion that "the only REAL transsexuals are those who already look like a girl without even trying and everybody else is nothing but a crummy man in a dress." You know this theory? Either J. Michael Bailey started spreading this idea or it was already being said on the street and Bailey just wrote it up.

erm, not really, i looked like a propper dewd before i put effort in, and hrt, NOW i dont need to put effort in... i have just as much right to transition as everyone.

Quote

Then there's the helpful advice from young transitioners that someone like me who is beginning in her 40s should just give it up and go back to being male. Gee, thanks so much.

i dont think so, you can do it just as well, some young transitioners still fail dispite being young, its not some holy grail to looking like a supermodel.

Quote

Hypothetical question: What if there were a woman who actually felt more confident in a skirt or dress? No, that never happens in real life, except I suppose for the wretched, self-deluded "man in a dress."

there are, but im just not one, im a tomboy, i just dont do skirts...

Quote

Or in other words, "passing"... right? Maybe I was wrong all along, and passing is really what it's all about.

on neednt pass to be seen as a woman, most folk if they read a transwoman, would either correct themselves mentally, or treat them like a woman, generally. only a nasty minority dont or some slip. but one can not pass and do rlt. its more about being able to live female.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 13, 2007, 06:04:05 AM

QuoteI think it's just a round about way of saying "Just be yourself, rather than try to follow some stereotype.  After all, aren't you are mentally a woman?  If so, just do what comes naturally."

That is exactly what I have been believing with all my heart, and living in my daily life. That is why I felt such hope and promise for the future, and as I posted recently, I had started to feel I'm out of the woods and the path before me is open and sunlit. The contradictions because the changes in my external life aren't moving fast enough to keep up, which is what this thread's discussion has focused for me, are causing me to question everything.

I experienced the same thing, which is what instigated me to actually come out at work.  I had planned on working the 90 day probationary period, but I could stand pretending to be male no longer and after a discussion with my therapist, I came out at work the very next day (which was about a month and a half sooner).

Anyways, if you have found that mental place, stay in it.  It takes so many TS years after even having surgery to discover that this is about just being yourself and being happy with your life.  Apparently you have done your introspective due diligence, so there's no need to doubt yourself.  It's the people who rush in and never question themselves and their motivations that worry me.

Quote from: Hypatia on July 13, 2007, 06:04:05 AM
But this is turning into a hijack of my own thread, changing into topics best left for another thread, so mods can go ahead and lock or delete this one, I feel it's served its purpose and run its course, thanks to everyone for sharing.

Nah, it's just evolving.  I think we thoroughly answered the main question and now we're working on a tangent and may get back to the main topic eventually, but as long as it's related, it's not a problem.  I think whatever ends up helping you is good though.  Coming out at work is a very scary thing, but it's the riskiest things in life that are the most rewarding. :)

Quote from: Hypatia on July 12, 2007, 08:34:37 PM

Quote from: mavieenrose on July 07, 2007, 04:23:44 PMActually your comment is really, really interesting as I've never looked to 'pass' as a woman in my life.

Passing to me sounds like acting, like trying to learn a role, like imitating.... and for me my sole aim was to no longer 'pass' as male. 
It was about removing a layer, taking off a mask, it was certainly not about adding one...

I've always known I was female and quite frankly people who've known me since childhood always say I've stayed pretty much the same as I ever was (though much happier of course...)

Clearly we can only ever hope to fully understand our own personal experiences and motivations as we are all so different, and this is indeed why I would never dare claim to speak for others.

All I can say, is that for me the day my male name no longer made sense was the day I realised I broken out of my male prison, and the day I became 'full time' me.

Ma vie, honey, I'm a little confused here, please help me out. I have been rereading this post, but all I can see described is exactly the phenomenon that others call "passing." Have you redefined the meaning of "passing" to mean something other?

Hi Hypatia,

I'll try to be a little clearer this time.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that when I hear people use the term 'passing' when talking about living in their rightful, chosen gender I feel uncomfortable, I just can't relate to this. 

For me the word 'passing' is synonymous with 'pretending', and although I certainly pretended when I was a lot younger to be a boy like any other, I certainly don't need to pretend to be a woman, I just am.  I feel it deep down.

The only thing that I needed to do to transition from a male life to a female one, was to peel off some physically masculine layers that nature had slapped on me.  I was then able to step out into the world as me.

Transitioning in my opinion is not about becoming someone else, but about becoming yourself.

MVER XXX

Quote from: mavieenrose on July 13, 2007, 12:39:42 PM
For me the word 'passing' is synonymous with 'pretending', and although I certainly pretended when I was a lot younger to be a boy like any other, I certainly don't need to pretend to be a woman, I just am.  I feel it deep down.

That's why when I say "passing", I don't mean passing as a woman, but rather passing as a GG (which I'll use sometimes).  Obviously we're not GGs, but we can be seen as GGs or transwomen.

Quote from: Rachael on July 13, 2007, 07:08:06 AM
i have black hair, or didnt you look at my avitar?

So how did you keep the dark follicles from showing underneath your skin? You have fair skin, it seems translucent... what did you do about the dark beard, if not makeup?

well im 20 years old, i never really got much faicial hair to start with, and the hrt dealt with the rest of it. i know its not a 'written' result of hrt, but the evidence is on my face *shrugs*