Ok so to start this off, I am not transgendered. I have nothing against the LBGT community and really am here just trying to find out from you all some answers.
A few weeks ago the place I work at got a new employee, a transgendered employee. No big deal, like I said, nobody deserves to be discriminated against, and I would stand up for them if I saw it happening. But here's the deal. This person is a girl. Nobody would doubt that. But she demands we all call her "him" or "he" and anytime anyone slips up, she will instantly correct them "hey I'm a guy". Ok so a little strange but no big deal. She also will sometimes bring up gender and transgender topics which instantly make me a little uncomfortable. Not because it bothers me, but because I do not want to say anything that could offend them and lose my job over some sexual harassment case. The thing that has really begun to bother me and the other male employees recently though is her using the mens restrooms. I have had them walk on me many times and it is awkward to say the least.
So basically why I joined this forum was to find out from this community is if this is right, if I should have a talk with them or just drop it. I just think that if you were gonna have other people start calling you by a different name and as the opposite sex, that you should at least be passable as the other sex? The other thing is she doesn't act manly at all, they are very feminine in how they present themselves. The person also has a boyfriend which when I heard that, I quit trying to figure them out anymore or put this person into any "normal" box, which is probably how the person feels anyways..(Is there such thing as a transgendered gay??)...Like I said I'm not hating on this person at all, quite the contrary they are actually really cool, but a lot of this stuff is just strange for a person who has grown up with men and woman and nothing inbetween..
well as far as being passable. that isnt really relevant. not even all non trans people are passable as their gender. you didnt mention whether she wears mens clothes which actually kinda makes a difference though.
could be shes just jumping on some weird bandwagon.
im a preop mtf trans. when i finally get through all this ill be identified most easily as a tomboy.
we dont all fit into a mold. i appreciate your efforts not to offend. if you get harrassed by people who are offended at your lack of knowledge in this just brush it off.
i wouldnt worry about the bathroom thing. i mean does it really matter. i can see issue with it. lots of issues. but i wouldnt bat an eye. id ignore it personally.
as far as a sexual harassment suit if you have to say anything i would just say ' i dont know enough about it to feel comfortable giving an opinion'
yeah. you can be a gay trans person. or asexual or straight.
i dont know.
haha. whats your question?
also. disclaimer. im not a lawyer or in any way qualified to give advice. just a trans woman wanting to help.
This may help you. It comes from the www.gendercentre.org.au
If you live, have lived, or want to live as a member of the opposite gender (sex) to your birth gender that counts you as transgender. This means you are legally counted as transgender if:
you want to live as a member of your preferred gender (the opposite gender to your birth gender);
you are in the process of changing over to your preferred gender;
you live as a member of your preferred gender;
you have lived as a member of your preferred gender in the past; or
you are intersexual (born with indeterminate sex, for example, with sexual parts of both sexes) and you live as a member of your preferred gender.
You do not have to have had any sex-change or other surgery. You do not have to have taken any hormones in the past or be taking them now. It does not matter what your gender was at birth.
It does not matter which gender is your preferred gender. It does not matter why you are transgender. It does not matter how you describe or label yourself (for example, as transgender, ->-bleeped-<-, transsexual or something else).
What matters is how you live and behave, or how you want to live and behave. If you fit any one of the "rules" listed above, then you are transgender.
Transgender people suffer a lot of discrimination and are very normal very ordinary people. People may be male to female, as I am, or female to male as your coworker is.
Sexuality is different to gender, your coworker appears to be sexual attracted to other men, therefore he is a Gay male. My sexual attraction is to straight males, hence I'm a heterosexual female.
Clothing, style etc is diverse among trans*people as it is in any group of people.
Your coworker uses the male toilet because he is male and would feel totally out of place in a female toilet, as I would in a male toilet!
Treat him as a fellow male colleague and enjoy his company. You have a wonderful opportunity to meet a very brave man who has and does face many daily challenges.
Remember to use the correct pronouns for him and treat him like any other guy you know.
Cindy
Hi, and welcome to Susans! We have people come to visit us from all over the world, expressing different points of view, and you are likely to find someone to help you along your way :) Here are some important links and things to ponder as you begin your journey here.
- Site Terms of Service and rules to live by (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
- Standard Terms and Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)
- Post Ranks ( including when you can upload an avatar/post links and photos) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
- Age and the Forum (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,62197.msg405545.html#msg405545)
- Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)
Quote from: Cindy on January 02, 2014, 12:36:28 AM
This may help you. It comes from the www.gendercentre.org.au
If you live, have lived, or want to live as a member of the opposite gender (sex) to your birth gender that counts you as transgender. This means you are legally counted as transgender if:
you want to live as a member of your preferred gender (the opposite gender to your birth gender);
you are in the process of changing over to your preferred gender;
you live as a member of your preferred gender;
you have lived as a member of your preferred gender in the past; or
you are intersexual (born with indeterminate sex, for example, with sexual parts of both sexes) and you live as a member of your preferred gender.
You do not have to have had any sex-change or other surgery. You do not have to have taken any hormones in the past or be taking them now. It does not matter what your gender was at birth.
It does not matter which gender is your preferred gender. It does not matter why you are transgender. It does not matter how you describe or label yourself (for example, as transgender, ->-bleeped-<-, transsexual or something else).
What matters is how you live and behave, or how you want to live and behave. If you fit any one of the "rules" listed above, then you are transgender.
Transgender people suffer a lot of discrimination and are very normal very ordinary people. People may be male to female, as I am, or female to male as your coworker is.
Sexuality is different to gender, your coworker appears to be sexual attracted to other men, therefore he is a Gay male. My sexual attraction is to straight males, hence I'm a heterosexual female.
Clothing, style etc is diverse among trans*people as it is in any group of people.
Your coworker uses the male toilet because he is male and would feel totally out of place in a female toilet, as I would in a male toilet!
Treat him as a fellow male colleague and enjoy his company. You have a wonderful opportunity to meet a very brave man who has and does face many daily challenges.
Remember to use the correct pronouns for him and treat him like any other guy you know.
Cindy
what she said.
I would advise just rolling with it particularly if he has done the legal groundwork. That indicates at a minimum the individual has proven their basic case in court to a judge.
In various locations and workplaces, a person does not have to to the legal groundwork to be considered male or female. Situations like that are just as likely to get a person in trouble.
As for pass-ability, life isn't a beauty contest.
By your description he sounds quite new, but no one wears a trans label for fun, please understand. After his likely start on testosterone a FtMs appearance will change, more dramatically than a MtF on estrogen alone, facial hair from testosterone is a rather dramatic male tell. If he does not pursue a legal name change etc, that may be entirely circumstances. I'm a nice and independent individual that can afford lawyers and doctors and wardrobes oh my...not everyone has that level of resources.
Is there such a thing as transgender Gay? Of Course. I'm bi-curious, yet I only have a history with women, if that makes me lesbian so be it. By the time I made my name change legal, the last thing I'm worried about is someone thinking I'm gay/lesbian.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
This person is a girl. Nobody would doubt that. But she demands we all call her "him" or "he" and anytime anyone slips up, she will instantly correct them "hey I'm a guy".
This person is a guy. I understand that this is strange to you, but speaking as a trans guy, having one's identity doubted hurts like a *swear word*. If he has asked you to use masculine pronouns, the respectful thing to do would be to use them.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PMShe also will sometimes bring up gender and transgender topics which instantly make me a little uncomfortable. Not because it bothers me, but because I do not want to say anything that could offend them and lose my job over some sexual harassment case.
It's likely on his mind a lot. Ask him to change the subject. Just treat him like a regular guy. If you're worried about sexual harassment, don't ask him any questions about his genitals.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PMThe thing that has really begun to bother me and the other male employees recently though is her using the mens restrooms. I have had them walk on me many times and it is awkward to say the least. So basically why I joined this forum was to find out from this community is if this is right, if I should have a talk with them or just drop it.
Seriously, the guy just wants to do his business and get out. He is aware of what bathroom he is using.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PMI just think that if you were gonna have other people start calling you by a different name and as the opposite sex, that you should at least be passable as the other sex?
A lot of trans people don't pass. That doesn't mean they should be referred to as the wrong gender.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PMThe other thing is she doesn't act manly at all, they are very feminine in how they present themselves.
Gender roles are not the same thing as gender. You know how some women act masculine, but are still women and some men act feminine, but are still men? It's the same with trans people.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PMThe person also has a boyfriend which when I heard that, I quit trying to figure them out anymore or put this person into any "normal" box, which is probably how the person feels anyways..(Is there such thing as a transgendered gay??)
Sexual orientation is separate from gender identity. Trans people can have all the orientations people who are not trans can have.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM...Like I said I'm not hating on this person at all, quite the contrary they are actually really cool, but a lot of this stuff is just strange for a person who has grown up with men and woman and nothing in between...
It's great that you're asking questions and wanting to learn this stuff.
In addition to what's above, you might find this helpful:
http://www.thegenderbook.com/view-ebook/4553378502
Hi justconfused.
Thanks for asking these questions to better understand your coworker. In addition what's been said, let me add some things to hopefully help your understanding:
QuoteThe other thing is she doesn't act manly at all, they are very feminine in how they present themselves.
Even someone who was pretty masculine as a girl, probably still has some mannerisms and socialization from a female upbringing. Trans men who were seen as too masculine for women often come off kind of feminine after transitioning to male. Like I said, this is mostly due to a life of socialization in the other gender and not so much to do with the person's inherent personality and preferences (though it could be). They may not act exactly like the typical guy because they have not been able to live as a typical guy. And finally, some people are just more masculine or feminine than others regardless of gender.
QuoteThe person also has a boyfriend which when I heard that, I quit trying to figure them out anymore or put this person into any "normal" box, which is probably how the person feels anyways..(Is there such thing as a transgendered gay??)
Sometimes trans people try very hard to fit into the sex they were born in. It's possible he tried dating guys as an attempt to be a normal straight woman. Maybe he gave in to family pressure to date men. There are a lot of gays and lesbians still in the closet dating the opposite sex. So, it's not surprising a trans person might do this too. Maybe your coworker developed a serious relationship with a man while trying to fit in as a woman and is simply still with the guy. Or maybe over the years, he's simply become used to dating guys and is more comfortable with them. Or maybe he just prefers them.
Just remember he hasn't had the same life as most guys, so you may notice differences. Try to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's trying to catch up on a lifetime of socialization and experiences denied him as a trans guy.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
Ok so to start this off, I am not transgendered. I have nothing against the LBGT community and really am here just trying to find out from you all some answers.
A few weeks ago the place I work at got a new employee, a transgendered employee. No big deal, like I said, nobody deserves to be discriminated against, and I would stand up for them if I saw it happening. But here's the deal. This person is a girl. Nobody would doubt that. But she demands we all call her "him" or "he" and anytime anyone slips up, she will instantly correct them "hey I'm a guy". Ok so a little strange but no big deal. She also will sometimes bring up gender and transgender topics which instantly make me a little uncomfortable. Not because it bothers me, but because I do not want to say anything that could offend them and lose my job over some sexual harassment case. The thing that has really begun to bother me and the other male employees recently though is her using the mens restrooms. I have had them walk on me many times and it is awkward to say the least.
So basically why I joined this forum was to find out from this community is if this is right, if I should have a talk with them or just drop it. I just think that if you were gonna have other people start calling you by a different name and as the opposite sex, that you should at least be passable as the other sex? The other thing is she doesn't act manly at all, they are very feminine in how they present themselves. The person also has a boyfriend which when I heard that, I quit trying to figure them out anymore or put this person into any "normal" box, which is probably how the person feels anyways..(Is there such thing as a transgendered gay??)...Like I said I'm not hating on this person at all, quite the contrary they are actually really cool, but a lot of this stuff is just strange for a person who has grown up with men and woman and nothing inbetween..
Most people that are transsexual and transition start from one point to get to where they'd like to be (it all takes time to go female to male). So, your co-worker was born in a female body, but identifies as male. They may be in the beginning of their transition which would be why they may still appear female, but it doesn't say anything about their inner identity. I'd make the effort treat them as the way they present and identify. Personally, I'm not asking my co-workers to refer to me with female pronouns until I feel I'm at a certain point look wise. That way it's less confusing and more comfortable for everyone involved, but that is just me. Everyone is different and sometimes transgender people don't really pass 100 percent because of various limitations. It depends. Regardless, if he says he's a guy, I'd treat him as such because that's how he identifies.
I think it's not really right for your co-worker to keep bringing up lgbt issues in the work place. If he is trying to educate you after you ask a question or show confusion that's fine, but they shouldn't be on a soapbox. It depends on how it goes and why it's being presented. No matter what, the goal shouldn't be to flare up debates or advocate a political stance. Then again, it depends on the work environment too.
There are transpeople of all sexual orientation. Being trans is about what gender you identify as not what your sexual preference is. So there are gay, bi and straight trans people. Your co-worker just happens to be gay. It's more common than you may think.
The bathroom issue is complicated for many and my views may differ than other trans people on this forum. While I identify as female, I don't go into the women's room yet. Because I'm still in between gender (as I said things transitioning time) I personally wouldn't go into the girlsroom until I present female. And I won't present as female until I feel comfortable that I pass as female from an appearance aspect. This is just my own personal take because I don't want girls to feel worried about their saftey or something as I too would be nervous if a guy walked into the bathroom (well, not really if they were a fem looking person like myself, but you get my point). In any event, I'm sure your co-worker has been through hr about this issue and has the okay. Since he is presenting as male and being treated like a male employee, he would be using the mens room. I'd suggest letting it go because it could cause issues that no one really would want to deal with.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you need. It's a confusing subject. To be honest, I'm a transexual female and even I don't really understand everyone in the community, so there is nothing wrong with having a little confusion to something that's new to you.
Hope that helped. :)
Testosterone is pretty amazing stuff. Once he's had a couple months of T (and assuming he goes that route), you'll be like :o woah.
On the bathroom issue, if he's not doing anything that would be inappropriate for someone who grew up male, let him slide. But, the bathroom cultures do differ. If you need to clue him in on the Urinal Code or the Code of Silence, do so gently. It's easier to hear such things from someone who is supportive or at least non-confrontational.
Mechanical curiosity (i.e. "wait; how would a trans-dude use a urinal anyway?") is better satisfied here than asking personally. 'Cuz, that sort of thing is very personal.
Pronouns, actually, that's pretty easy to explain to most people, because most people don't like being called "it." Well, calling him "her" might very well hurt the same way - with the added salt that everyone has been doing it his whole life. That's why pronouns are important. Might seem symbolic, but call him him, ask others to do so, this can mean an awful lot.
Oh, also, it's okay to not want to talk about gender issues with your coworkers, or only talk that topic sometimes. Boundaries: it's okay to have them. And, yeah, you can say "I'm uncomfortable talking about that. I don't want to offend you."
Coolest thing you could do: invite him along for regular guy stuff. Just double-check that most to all the guys will be okay with him, 'cuz if they all choose to dump on him that's gonna suck.
This is a pretty awesome thread. Justconfused I really hope that things work out for your new employee and you. If you are the boss or a team lead in your area with the new employee then it may be time to go to HR and have a sit down with the new employee to clear the air. Hear his side of things on how he would like to be treated and hear your side of things on how the "other guys" see him. It's likely the guys just need some time to adjust and a good HR person can help speed that up by facilitating communication and empowering "the guys" to be okay with it instead of defaulting back to "unknown = bad" and discomfort.
I'm a mtf and I haven't started presenting as female at work but if I did I would expect there to be compromise until both my organization and I learned more about each other and could move forward in a positive direction.
Hi. :) So, I have been kind of in your friend's situation. I wasn't able to start transition because of some family stuff, and honestly, the only way I could feel OK in the meantime was to tell people how I felt and hope they used my correct name and pronouns. It is SO hard while you are waiting to pass as your correct gender, it can be embarrassing and really emotionally painful. People who were compassionate and tried their best to get it right really made all the difference to me, and because of them, I was able to get through a very difficult time in my life. I think we all realize it can be difficult when you know someone one way and they ask you to use a new name and pronouns, and I would hope your friend would be understanding.
The one thing that you may be able to bring to his attention is constantly talking about transgender issues. Bringing it up now and again is cool, but I think if it's ongoing it might be helpful to say "Look, I think you're pretty cool, and I know this is a big thing in your life right now, but I need to focus on my work." Or try and change the subject.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
Ok so to start this off, I am not transgendered. I have nothing against the LBGT community and really am here just trying to find out from you all some answers.
A few weeks ago the place I work at got a new employee, a transgendered employee. No big deal, like I said, nobody deserves to be discriminated against, and I would stand up for them if I saw it happening. But here's the deal. This person is a girl. Nobody would doubt that. But she demands we all call her "him" or "he" and anytime anyone slips up, she will instantly correct them "hey I'm a guy". Ok so a little strange but no big deal. She also will sometimes bring up gender and transgender topics which instantly make me a little uncomfortable. Not because it bothers me, but because I do not want to say anything that could offend them and lose my job over some sexual harassment case. The thing that has really begun to bother me and the other male employees recently though is her using the mens restrooms. I have had them walk on me many times and it is awkward to say the least.
So basically why I joined this forum was to find out from this community is if this is right, if I should have a talk with them or just drop it. I just think that if you were gonna have other people start calling you by a different name and as the opposite sex, that you should at least be passable as the other sex? The other thing is she doesn't act manly at all, they are very feminine in how they present themselves. The person also has a boyfriend which when I heard that, I quit trying to figure them out anymore or put this person into any "normal" box, which is probably how the person feels anyways..(Is there such thing as a transgendered gay??)...Like I said I'm not hating on this person at all, quite the contrary they are actually really cool, but a lot of this stuff is just strange for a person who has grown up with men and woman and nothing inbetween..
Sounds like he has no problem, and you and your coworkers are performing microaggressions by not using his preferred pronoun. He is male, and if he says to call him by male pronouns and if he wants to use the male restroom, why are you stopping him? I don't think there is any problem with him, it's his coworkers who are being rather unprofessional and bigoted.
You think calling someone, who has come here to ask questions, a bigot, will help with his attitude with regards to the trans community?
Most people have already covered this, but I thought I'd comment as well.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
Ok so to start this off, I am not transgendered. I have nothing against the LBGT community and really am here just trying to find out from you all some answers.
First of, this is a good step to have taken and shows you want to understand. Just remember that although the vast majority of people on this site are trans, we've all got different experiences, so some stuff might be different for the guy you know.
Quote
A few weeks ago the place I work at got a new employee, a transgendered employee. No big deal, like I said, nobody deserves to be discriminated against, and I would stand up for them if I saw it happening. But here's the deal. This person is a girl. Nobody would doubt that. But she demands we all call her "him" or "he" and anytime anyone slips up, she will instantly correct them "hey I'm a guy". Ok so a little strange but no big deal.
Your colleague may
appear to be a girl, but that's where they end being female. We've all got to start somewhere, and some of us are more fortunate than others in our looks. If you tried to look like the opposite sex right now would you manage it? That's the same problem for them, only they'll be more bothered about looking like a girl than you will be.
You don't say where in the world you are, but in a lot of places such as here in the UK we have to spend 3 months holding employment and living all the time in our "target gender" before we'll be given hormone treatment to change our appearance. Correcting you is not only something they will be wanting to do because it feels like a knife in the back whenever the wrong pronouns are used, but it may also be something which they need to do to be able to access treatment. It might seem like they're being harsh when they keep correcting you, but they've spent their whole lives up until recently having to hide their feelings, and are probably eager to hear the right pronouns, and a little frustrated that it isn't going as easily as they hoped. If you want to be supportive try and use the right pronouns all the time, or at least use gender neutral they/their/them.
Quote
She also will sometimes bring up gender and transgender topics which instantly make me a little uncomfortable. Not because it bothers me, but because I do not want to say anything that could offend them and lose my job over some sexual harassment case.
This isn't something that I would personally ever consider doing in the workplace, simply because I would just like to be thought of as just another guy, but some people are more "out and proud" about themselves, particularly at the beginning of their transition, just like there are some gay men and women who talk about it openly, and others who don't. Maybe mention to them that you'd rather not talk about it as you just want to see them as any other person and by bringing it up all the time it's more difficult?
Quote
The thing that has really begun to bother me and the other male employees recently though is her using the mens restrooms. I have had them walk on me many times and it is awkward to say the least.
This is something that they're probably just as uncomfortable with it as you are, probably scared of being shouted at or beaten up on top of it. As long as they're aware of male bathroom etiquette (don't look, don't make eye contact, don't use the urinal next to someone etc) does it really matter? They're not going in there to spy on you or your privates, they just want to empty their bladder and get it over and done with.
Quote
So basically why I joined this forum was to find out from this community is if this is right, if I should have a talk with them or just drop it. I just think that if you were gonna have other people start calling you by a different name and as the opposite sex, that you should at least be passable as the other sex?
I would just drop it, unless they're doing something etiquettely "wrong" in the bathroom, in which case I would gently bring it up. It would be easier for both you and us if we could instantly be passable, but sometimes that isn't the case, and there's nothing either of us can do about it. Although it might be weird, does it really hurt you to refer to them as male and by their name? Because it probably hurts them if you don't. Even if you don't think they can hear you, because you never know when someone's just around the corner, or who else might be walking past who may be offended by hearing you using the wrong pronouns for someone.
Quote
The other thing is she doesn't act manly at all, they are very feminine in how they present themselves. The person also has a boyfriend which when I heard that, I quit trying to figure them out anymore or put this person into any "normal" box, which is probably how the person feels anyways..(Is there such thing as a transgendered gay??)
I'm not sure I understand what you mean about being feminine in their presentation? If it's referring to their clothes then maybe they don't know what to wear to suit their body, or have the money to update their wardrobe. If it's their mannerisms, then some people struggle to get out of old habits which have been ingrained into them since childhood. Some men are just more feminine than others anyway.
As for being gay, yup, gay trans people exist, just like gay cis (non-trans) people exist too. Gender and sexuality are completely different things, and whilst it might seem to you like it would be easier/more socially acceptable to be a straight female than a gay male, it's really not a choice for trans people. The need to transition often comes from a deep hatred of their appearance and everything female about it, even down to the way their fat sits on their body, and can be a matter of mental stability.
It looks like most of your questions have been answered, but I also want to agree that taking the time to understand your coworker is at amazing thing to do. Thank you for asking questions rather than jumping to conclusions, and I am nure your new employee will appreciate everything you learn here :)
If I were your line supervisor, I would have a sign on my cubicle announcing a general staff meeting next payday where the topic would be "Getting To Know You" for the new employee and the rest of you. They are a human being, and you do say some things that under my state's employment laws are a supervisor's business. Unless they have been given a Diversity Training assignment on being Trans*, I can see where it can become a bit much, and probably should be cut short. Your boss can back that one up without it being harassment on any one's part. Conversation not directly relevant to the job can be a detriment to the work environment. Trans* folk can get into those areas as offenders too. Likewise the subjects of romance on the job, but hey,cis guys are notorious for telling about their sexual exploits, and cis women too. Unless you folks are a reproductive science lab how a baby is created is not part of the job! Once the meeting had concluded the interpersonal issue, I would then (as I did IRL) ask for an explanation of why the monthly work goal was short!! The two would be related I am sure.
I could be even crustier than some of what has been told here already, but even the Cis folk are owed a bit of consideration by us on the Trans* side of life and we and the Cis need a sense of humor about the whole thing or it will be nasty for all.
Quote from: Seras on January 03, 2014, 07:09:49 PM
You think calling someone, who has come here to ask questions, a bigot, will help with his attitude with regards to the trans community?
I said their behavior (intentionally misgendering) was bigoted, which it is. I didn't call anyone anything.
OK, every transgendered individual has their own journey. I know one (male to female) who basically started dressing as a woman who couldn't start hormones until several months later. She also has a girlfriend. Now, two years after she started her journey, she looks and acts as a woman. It's not easy to unlearn activities that have been drilled in to one's self all of our life. However, there was some confusion on the part of her employers for a while. Me? I'm totally opposite. I'm hiding until the last possible minute. Then, I'm off for facial surgery and ta-da – a woman shows up. We are all different.
Having said that, the idea of a meeting and going through what being transgender means and how people should relate to a transgendered person with your staff might be good. That is what my employer did. They also designated a unisex restroom for me use. Yep, I got singled out. However, everyone is more comfortable. Eventually, I'll start to use the regular restrooms. But I also have an obligation to help others feel comfortable.
There are some things that people can talk about at work. I don't know that their sex life is one of them. I was told that answering questions was appropriate but not to intentionally bring it up. I'm a professional woman and my behavior should reflect that. In your case, he is a professional man and he needs to act the part. There is a fine line in there.
I believe I could post what my employer tells other about transgendered individuals as well as what transgendered people should know. My employer is very large and has 2-3 transitions a year, the vast majority of which are very successful.
Jen
Quote from: Thylacin on January 03, 2014, 06:07:48 PM
Sounds like he has no problem, and you and your coworkers are performing microaggressions by not using his preferred pronoun. He is male, and if he says to call him by male pronouns and if he wants to use the male restroom, why are you stopping him? I don't think there is any problem with him, it's his coworkers who are being rather unprofessional and bigoted.
Why the hostility? Jesus, no wonder so many people are afraid to approach the trans community. He's not purposely misgendering anyone, he's just confused. I'm a trans guy and seeing someone who claims to be FTM yet doesn't even try to pass (as seems to be the case here) would be confusing for me at first too. It's good that the OP came here to learn and try to understand his coworker's situation, a lot of people wouldn't even bother.
Anyway, I wasn't going to comment here because I'm the exact opposite of the coworker. I'm not able to transition yet due to family problems and while I could ask to be referred to as male at work, I don't because I can't even try to pass except around my close friends. I know it would just be confusing if I were to go around demanding to be called male pronouns while looking at least somewhat like a woman (I dress androgynously). Yes, it's great to be yourself and want to be called the correct pronouns but there comes a point where you do have to be mindful of how others are going to view and treat you. But I guess that advice is more for his coworker so I digress.
Quote from: FA on January 02, 2014, 01:07:27 PMEven someone who was pretty masculine as a girl, probably still has some mannerisms and socialization from a female upbringing. Trans men who were seen as too masculine for women often come off kind of feminine after transitioning to male. Like I said, this is mostly due to a life of socialization in the other gender and not so much to do with the person's inherent personality and preferences (though it could be). They may not act exactly like the typical guy because they have not been able to live as a typical guy. And finally, some people are just more masculine or feminine than others regardless of gender.
This is right on the spot. Even though I tried my best to fit in as a guy, I never really passed as one - be it my body posture (always had slip ups where my mannerisms became more female), interests and tastes (did my best trying to become masculine, didn't work), way of speaking (ended with my voice becoming completely monotone after bullying in primary school, so ehm... now I just pass as an aspie in that regard), choice of friends and activities (mostly girls, and I preferred their girl nights, to which I was welcome, instead of guy things, unless I was forced or in one of my femininity-phobic periods), or most of all, emotional reactions (I'm a crybaby). Most people have always suspected me of being gay or at the very last bi, and while the latter is correct, the truth is I was never a man.
But when I finally get around to transitioning (sadly there are insane waiting times in my country just to get HRT, not to speak of SRS), I'll have the problem of my male upbringing and socialization, as unsuccessful as it was - be it my body posture (15 years of trying to purge every female mannerism aren't easily reversed), interests and tastes (I still love computers and gaming, though I
am going to build that pink gaming rig I've always wanted :p ), way of speaking (reversing that monotony will not be easy), choice of friends and activities (okay, not friends, since I never really connected with men... but I do love LAN parties), but
least of all, emotional reactions (those are too hardwired). People will at best see me as a bit tomboyish, at worst they'll suspect I'm trans. So I guess the truth is I'll be stuck in some middle place. If I hadn't listened to the bigots during puberty, and followed my instincts instead, the situation would be different. I really wish I could rewind.
(To the OP, mostly:)
I guess what I'm trying to say is something like this: If he doesn't pass, that doesn't mean he's not genuinely trans or that he shouldn't be called by his male name and pronouns. On the other hand, trans people who don't even attempt to pass (as in, trans men who wear female clothes or the other way around), while still insisting on their identified pronouns, always puzzled me. I'm currently in guy mode when I'm not at home, since I'm only out to my closest family and friends. For that reason, I've told the people I came out to that I still want to be called by my male name, and still want male pronouns, firstly because they'll feel weird calling me by female terms when I'm presenting as a guy (no matter how much I hate it), secondly because if they get used to saying "she", they might slip when talking to people who don't know yet. That would be disastrous right now. It also gives them a little more time to adjust. At least my mother seems to have decided to call me "my child" instead of "my son" when addressing me - that's very considerate of her, since I always flinched inside when she did the "son" thing (without her knowing, of course), even while in denial.
But then again, that is
my choice. If someone identifies as trans, and wants to be addressed according to their identified gender even while in the "opposite" mode, that is their right, and common courtesy demands that people follow it even if it feels a bit weird. I do understand that this doesn't come naturally if he doesn't pass well (yet, that will change), but it's just a matter of getting used to it. Remember that this is almost certainly not an easy situation for him, and he is courageous to be open like that. In many ways, my choice is due to cowardice, since I'm just not ready for my less tolerant acquaintances to know about this yet.
Quote from: Contravene on January 03, 2014, 09:55:32 PM
Why the hostility? Jesus, no wonder so many people are afraid to approach the trans community. He's not purposely misgendering anyone, he's just confused. I'm a trans guy and seeing someone who claims to be FTM yet doesn't even try to pass (as seems to be the case here) would be confusing for me at first too. It's good that the OP came here to learn and try to understand his coworker's situation, a lot of people wouldn't even bother.
Anyway, I wasn't going to comment here because I'm the exact opposite of the coworker. I'm not able to transition yet due to family problems and while I could ask to be referred to as male at work, I don't because I can't even try to pass except around my close friends. I know it would just be confusing if I were to go around demanding to be called male pronouns while looking at least somewhat like a woman (I dress androgynously). Yes, it's great to be yourself and want to be called the correct pronouns but there comes a point where you do have to be mindful of how others are going to view and treat you. But I guess that advice is more for his coworker so I digress.
No hostility is meant. I'm calling the behavior exactly what it is, which is extremely important. If the op is here with the genuine intent to learn, they have to be made aware of how they've been behaving, and they should be willing to hear it and apologize. If I was behaving in an offensively bigoted way, I would appreciate being told so, and I would hope someone would tell me.
Quote from: Thylacin on January 04, 2014, 07:42:18 AM
No hostility is meant. I'm calling the behavior exactly what it is, which is extremely important. If the op is here with the genuine intent to learn, they have to be made aware of how they've been behaving, and they should be willing to hear it and apologize. If I was behaving in an offensively bigoted way, I would appreciate being told so, and I would hope someone would tell me.
To me, a bigot is someone who is intentionally hateful despite having been educated. This guy is coming to us asking us because he doesn't understand. Truly, how many people would take the time to find a site, sign up for it, and make a post trying to understand a coworker who they have a relatively non-personal connection to? To me, that really indicates that he isn't bigoted, he just genuinely has no idea how to relate to this person and wanted to know.
Calling someone out for being bigoted is essentially calling them a bigot. Hide behind semantics if you want to though. Not that coming here and asking people about what he should be doing is bigoted in any way.
I would write a small couple sentences about how I am saying your whole comment there is moronic, but it is ok, because I am not calling you a moron. However I am not socially incapable and understand how it would come off to others, i.e.
as rude.Quote I'm calling the behavior exactly what it is, which is extremely important.
Hi just confused. A lot of people have chimed in, but I thought is try answering too. I think maybe I have a few different things to add, although a lot of it will overlap (and hopefully reinforce) what others have said. As others have said, it sounds like your employee is quite new, but there are some things as far as best practices for HR and co-workers and a bit of sensitivity toward trans* people that can help. And, of course, there are places where trans* people can improve too.
SUGGESTION: If you and others at work are having difficulty, then a good HR practice is to bring in a speaker to talk about trans* topics. Don't make your employee try to explain or be the spokesman for all things trans*. Do bring in someone who actually does that. We or a local LGBT community center can probably help you or your company HR find someone.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
Ok so to start this off, I am not transgendered. I have nothing against the LBGT community and really am here just trying to find out from you all some answers.
First of all, a note about trans* terminology. Some people feel that "transgender" is mainly inclusive of only a part of the community. I use trans* because it is the broadest! most inclusive term that takes in all kinds of people. I work with all kinds of trans* people, so it's a habit for me. So when you see that, below, that's why. I'll give you a pass on "transgendered" but you will not I never use it below. There's a reason. :)
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
A few weeks ago the place I work at got a new employee, a transgendered employee. No big deal, like I said, nobody deserves to be discriminated against, and I would stand up for them if I saw it happening. But here's the deal. This person is a girl. Nobody would doubt that. But she demands we all call her "him" or "he" and anytime anyone slips up, she will instantly correct them "hey I'm a guy". Ok so a little strange but no big deal.
As others have said, it sounds like this person is quite new. Perhaps the thing to understand here is that gender identity is a very real thing. You have one, I have one, we all have one. For example, if I offered you $100,000 on the condition that you must change your sex and live as a member of the opposite sex for the rest of your life, what would you do? Most cisgender people would not take the offer. Many would be downright apalled by it. That is their gender identity at work.
When your gender identity doesn't match the way you are expected to live (like your colleague being expected to live as a girl), it can be extremely painful. That is why transgender people would (and sometimes do, if they can) spend $100,000 to achieve the goal of changing their sex.
It can really hurt to be forced to live in a way and in a gender role that makes no sense to you. That pain is real. People die because of it. They end up seeing no other way out. That's probably why he insists on being considered a guy and called "he." Other people insisting on calling him "she" feels like people are forcing him to live in a gender that makes no sense and it hurts. And the pain is real. Reality is that getting pronouns right is hard so trans* people often just have to endure it. But that doesn't make it right.
You say that the person is a girl. But what makes you say that? When I educate about trans* issues, I often ask is whether people have ever told someone that it's what's inside that counts. Most people have said this to someone. Trans* people believe that is actually true--it really is what's inside that counts. If what's inside of a person (that gender identity) is a guy, then that's what counts and the person is a guy! That's true even if the person looks like a girl. So if that's what is inside, he's right! He's a guy and should be called "he!"
Even if you don't agree, the fact is that calling him "he" costs you nothing. So try. You'll be making his life a lot better.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
She also will sometimes bring up gender and transgender topics which instantly make me a little uncomfortable. Not because it bothers me, but because I do not want to say anything that could offend them and lose my job over some sexual harassment case.
When gender creates the kind of issues that I explained above, it can be a pretty all consuming issue. Trans* people often do end up talking about it a lot and it can get annoying. It just means it's on his mind a lot. But that doesn't mean you have to discuss that with him constantly. Feel free to politely change the subject just as you would with anyone else.
HIM: Oh, gosh, I can't believe Joe called me a girl again.
YOU: That sucks. Hey, did you get the memo about the new project?
Most people get the hint after this happens a few times.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
The thing that has really begun to bother me and the other male employees recently though is her using the mens restrooms. I have had them walk on me many times and it is awkward to say the least.
Here's a reality check about bathrooms. Trans* people use the bathrooms for the same functions as anyone else. They include defecation, urination, and (at least in my world, maybe not as much in the men's room) fixing their hair. So what is so awkward about that?
Further reality: trans* people are frequently assaulted for using the restroom. For this reason, using restrooms is frequently downright scary for trans* people. But it's virtually unheard of for a trans* person to do anything to anyone else. Yet people feeling "awkward" or fears that somehow trans* people are the dangerous ones instead of being the victims are frequently used to attack trans* people in the press, politically, and in other ways.
This is one on which I am unequivocal: you just need to get over it. People gotta pee. I'm sorry it feels awkward. You'll get used to it. If he does something, deal with it as you would any other guy. If he's just there, then I'm sorry you feel that way. Feel free to leave and use a different restroom.
You don't say where you are from. If you are in the U.S., you should also know that the EEOC has taken the position that denying access to restrooms matching the persons gender identity is discrimination in violation of Title VII. There are also OSHA regs that require employers to provide restrooms hat employees can actually use. There are other legal issues here too. In short, you don't want to go there with trying to oust him from the restroom. This is a great topic for the trans* trainer I mentioned earlier to discuss.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
So basically why I joined this forum was to find out from this community is if this is right, if I should have a talk with them or just drop it. I just think that if you were gonna have other people start calling you by a different name and as the opposite sex, that you should at least be passable as the other sex?
Why? Remember he's just trying to live his life in a way that makes sense. Frankly, his only job is to be true to himself. Not be true to the image of himself that someone else imposes on him.
The other reality is that asking why some trans* people don't pass as the sex they identify with is like asking why all women cannot look like Victoria's Secret models. Not everyone has the genes to look like the VS models. And not everyone has the genes to make themselves look like the gender they identify with. The other reality is that since trans* related health care is specifically excluded under most health insurance plans, treatments that can help a person to pass as the sex they identify with can be out of reach. But the sincerity and validity of a person's identity is not determined by a genetic roll of the dice or by how much money they have available for doctors.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
The other thing is she doesn't act manly at all, they are very feminine in how they present themselves.
So are many gay men. In fact, the effeminate gay men are the ones that people tend to think of when they think of gay men. That does not mean they are women. And the same is true for trans* people.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
The person also has a boyfriend which when I heard that, I quit trying to figure them out anymore or put this person into any "normal" box, which is probably how the person feels anyways..(Is there such thing as a transgendered gay??)...
This confuses a lot of people, but it's actually pretty simple. Gay men identify as men. It makes perfect sense to them that they are men and they live their lives as men. Their gender identity is male. Their sexual orientation is toward other men, but that doesn't mean they want to be women. It just means they prefer men sexually.
Transmen also identify as men. Their gender identity is male. Some of them have a sexual orientation toward men and are, therefore gay. Not only are some trans* people gay! but it is not even that uncommon and it is certainly normal. That's because sexual orientation and gender identity have little to do with one another.
SUGGESTION: don't try to put people in boxes. Their job is just to be themselves regardless of whether they fit your preconceptions. Yours is just to treat them with respect and courtesy. This goes for EVERYONE, not just this one coworker. And it makes life a lot easier, frankly.
Quote from: justconfused on January 01, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
Like I said I'm not hating on this person at all, quite the contrary they are actually really cool, but a lot of this stuff is just strange for a person who has grown up with men and woman and nothing inbetween..
I hope this helps. If you have other questions, that trainer is a good person to ask and so is this website. You can also find a lot just by reading. For example, I read the crossdressing forum because I totally don't understand crossdressing and I feel like I need to understand it better considering all the work I do with trans* people. But don't put your coworker in the position of being forced to speak for all trans* people. Trans* people are just as varied and unique as anyone else. And being nice to trans* people! basically means treating them the same as anyone else.
I would just remind everyone that there a lot of people that don't understand us. If someone is new to us and trying to learn, that isn't a bad thing. People will make mistakes and may have a difficult time adjusting to something they haven't been exposed to. So, even if there are things being said that could be seen as offensive, give the op the benefit of the doubt based on the context it was said in.
Quote from: learningtolive on January 04, 2014, 10:54:38 AM
I would just remind everyone that there a lot of people that don't understand us. If someone is new to us and trying to learn, that isn't a bad thing. People will make mistakes and may have a difficult time adjusting to something they haven't been exposed to. So, even if there are things being said that could be seen as offensive, give the op the benefit of the doubt based on the context it was said in.
I agree to this. Even though I (finally, after years of fighting myself) now identify as transsexual, I still do mistakes. Perhaps first of all forgetting about gender-neutral pronouns on some occasions, since they're simply alien to me. I find myself within the binary system, and I don't identify personally with anything else. Still, I try (if I didn't try to understand people that aren't like me, why should I expect cis people to understand me?), and I'm sure I'll get it right in time.
Exactly because of that, when some of my loved ones say things like "I went to school with a MtF transsexual, he has a much better life after transitioning", I don't chop their heads off. I gently correct them if I get the chance, but on some occasions, I simply smile and nod. They meant well. They meant it as support, even as a go-ahead. That kind of support coming from people who are deeply religious and that I expected to carry the "normal" prejudice (like I did until I collapsed... I'm no saint when it comes to tolerance) is simply moving, even if they haven't got their language straight yet. We have to realize this is a very alien concept to many people; it's something they read about in glossy magazines, until they suddenly has a loved one coming out of the closet, or a new co-worker who is openly trans. Give them a break, as long as they seem to be doing their best. If they prove to be bigots, however, it's time for that head chopping (figuratively speaking, obviously...). But in those cases, gentle head chopping. Some of those bigots are trans themselves.
That said, please don't see this as me excusing myself. My own slip-ups are inexcusable. But cis people's? I'd say they're excused as long as they try their best, which of course means they also improve over time. We simply can't expect them to be fully educated immediately.
I'm wondering if the OP read our replies and is no longer coming back.
Quote from: LordKAT on January 04, 2014, 03:38:08 PM
I'm wondering if the OP read our replies and is no longer coming back.
He made one post on one visit and stayed for 38 minutes. Which was probably as long as it took to write the op.
Answers that, maybe not coming back and just wanted people to see their side of the story, so to speak.
He might not visit as regularly as we do too, since he just joined. I do hope he sees our replies and still feels welcome.
Why do I regret joining in the discussion in this thread before I've even written anything? Normally a sign that I should press the "back" button and find something else to do with my time.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 04, 2014, 09:41:53 AMThis is one on which I am unequivocal: you just need to get over it.
The above is the single piece of advice that the OP should be taking away with him. Not in an aggressive, confrontational sense, but in a sense that he and his friends are overthinking all of this, and the overthinking is what's getting them tied up in tortured mental knots.
A trans* person is, first and foremost, a person. So basically respecting a trans* person involves just treating them like a person. I'm not sure what it is with some people that they find out about a person being trans* and suddenly freak out about them doing ordinary, normal things, or they start asking weird inappropriate questions and other such things. But it all really just comes down to: people are people. Just be nice to each other. :)
Quote from: ThePhoenix on January 05, 2014, 09:47:13 PM
A trans* person is, first and foremost, a person. So basically respecting a trans* person involves just treating them like a person. I'm not sure what it is with some people that they find out about a person being trans* and suddenly freak out about them doing ordinary, normal things, or they start asking weird inappropriate questions and other such things. But it all really just comes down to: people are people. Just be nice to each other. :)
Amen.
That would solve the problems of this site -- and of the world!!!
Thank you for joining this forum so you could understand your coworker better. A lot of people would never ask, they would just judge and marginalize. There are a lot of ways to be a human, you are a respectful and honest one. Your coworker seems brave to me. I hope you understand that.