Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Since I started my transition over 10 years ago I have come across mostly by people who underwent genital surgery that one can not be the chosen gender if they do not have gender reassignment surgery, sex reassignment surgery whatever the hell you want to call it. And it is really pissing me off. And people who knock other people down for being happy with what they were born with or heck even use it for that matter.

Society has evolved and fitting into the stereotypical gender forms are not what everyone wants to do. So by shoving genital surgery down peoples throats I just don't think are cool. More often than not there are major complications. I have talked to so many M2F's who get genital surgery and they candy coat everything. And till coming to Susan's and reading how there are more complications and horror stories and some regretting what they did.

But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

I know you mean well hun and I share your feelings on this matter however....

Moderator, please delete this thread. I have seen similar threads BLOW UP and get very ugly very fast.

That's people Lana they are always going to be people who look down on you for one reason or another. While I fully plan on and will have the surgery because I decided it was the right thing for me. It's not up to me to tell someone else they have to have the surgery too. Just remember when someone puts you down for something it's normally to mask their on insecurities and I wouldn't let it bother you. :)

When and if things start to go wrong, we will step in, until then, lets just try to keep things civil.

That shouldn't be so hard.

My gender counselor told me something which surprised me very early on in our work together. She's a very highly respected gender identity counselor, she knows her stuff. Prior to undergoing HRT, she listed out the things I could expect to change, and those I could expect wouldn't. One she made clear was my chromosomes would remain the same... obviously.  A subtle point, but an important one. We can only change our appearance to match our brains, that's it.

Good and important topic IMO, I'll be happy to sign the 'stay civil' pledge.  ;)

Hi Lana! I have a good idea how you feel and why. Believe it or not I used to be uptight and judgmental at one time, However since coming out and accepting myself I have found a tolerance I never knew I could have for people. I feel now that whatever a person want's to be and is comfortable with should be that, period, and should be accepted. The decision, yes or no to SRS, is your business and you should be respected for making whatever choice you choose. I for one consider you a female whether you have SRS or not. You will always be my sister whatever your exterior shows to dispute that. You are who you are on the inside and in your soul and that should be good enough. People will always find faults or make judgments about others. That is just basic human nature so let it roll off your back and keep your head up. :)

I am sorry you feel this way about ones who have had there GCS. Yes another new way to say SRS/GRS.

If anyone understand and has read the WPATH SOC they will know that there is not cut and dry treatments for GID. So to say you have to have SRS to be the gender is truly bull ->-bleeped-<-.

As for the horror stories i feel you might be just a litte over reacting to them. There are so many boys and girls getting SRS all around the world every day but never have been on forums and or come back after. Most want to put that part behind them as fast as possible.

There are few of us willing to stick around and help others who wish to have answers from us who have work to our own needed ending path.

So it comes down to your own feeling inside. You need to make your own decision of what you need to be happy. Just remember not everyone feels the same as you and it is there opion.

I would not want anyone to do anything they wish not to do. and that is why we have the SOC.  With all this said i was one who wanted my path to end with GCS and i am more happier today because of it.

Hugs my sister.
Isabell

I don't hear much of the attitude you're talking about here at Susan's. Doesn't mean it's not there - I might just not be noticing it.

IRL, I know very few post-op women. Almost all the trans women I know are pre-op/non-op. Among them, I've actually seen the opposite reaction. I recently had a pre-op friend break off all contact with me because I got a surgery date, while she couldn't afford one. In a support group meeting, I once mentioned I was thinking of getting SRS and was treated to a fusilade of superiority because they'd all gotten past the need to have it.

At Susan's more often I hear post-op women talk about how they personally needed SRS but that they wouldn't recommend it to someone else unless they couldn't do without.

For someone like me, who is getting SRS out of choice - because a female bottom will help me be at peace with my body rather than because I can't stand it the way I am - I'm surprised at how little pressure I've gotten to go through with it.

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

Years ago, I became part of a spiritual community in town. It was a move made out of inspiration - the people, the teachings, the practices, everything seemed so congruent to me, speaking to parts of my being that had never been spoken to before. As I stepped ever deeper into this involvement, however, I started hitting some pretty tough edges. There was judgement. There were hierarchies. There were battles. One day, I complained about this to the head teacher. She laughed and said, 'Darling, being spiritual doesn't mean we stop being human!'

This memory comes up a lot as I find myself becoming part of the trans world. Much to my shock, there is judgement. Much to my shock, there are hierarchies. Much to my shock, there are battles. We are people, it seems, and, as with most people I know, things can get a wee bit messy.

Which is absolutely not a dismissal of your point, Lana. I feel it is both very valid and very important. 'Transgender' is an umbrella term that encompasses a wide range of experiences and perspectives. I would like to aspire toward a community in which our differences enrich and inform, as opposed to one in which said differences entrench and embattle.

This said, however, given our diversity, friction and judgement seem inevitable. In such cases, raising our concerns as you have and working to stay open/civil as Sarah suggests seem good steps in the direction of collective well being and mutual understanding.       

My post was not to start anything or stir the pot so to speak just something I have come in contact over my transition and wanted a open thread where people could talk. I'm fully understanding to people who feel they need to change down below to match how they feel. But also wanted to point out that not everyone feels the need to change down below. And that you're not any less of the gender you choose to live as if you don't want anything changed down there.

If that makes any sense.

Everyone's identity is unique to them as are their lives, decisions, reasons for making those decisions, etc. I like it that way. I hope I make sense.

Edge yup you make sense :D

I think it has to do with society wanting to know things and have clear cut distinctions. I think this is seen in many interviews with trans* people.

However, I don't think this to be true because the trans* friends I have known pre-transition never fit their birth gender roles. They simply are men and women regardless of genitals. If my friends choose to have surgery then that is their decision and it isn't my business to know either. 

As of now i want srs. This may be because i want to rid myself of any reminder of my male mode. But after i start hrt i may find i need that male part of me. Maybe some people need this part of them to remain balanced. Just a thought.

your right. their is a big push to get SRS and to conform in so many ways. i will admit i had no idea what i was getting myself into when i did srs or even FFS/ they were right for me but still i noticed doctors push for those as did others. society has strong views on things like this. well at least in the south. out west it seems a little more open.

Quote from: cynthialee on January 09, 2014, 11:38:17 AM
I know you mean well hun and I share your feelings on this matter however....

Moderator, please delete this thread. I have seen similar threads BLOW UP and get very ugly very fast.

I think it's a good topic and very timely given some recent comments. If problems arise, our mods are more than capable of handling things.

My whole reason for planning SRS is I need it to kill the Dysphoria. I am afraid having "it" down there will trigger me. I also would some day love to have a relationship (good luck with that) with a tolerant male who will love ME and not just "it". It is strictly a personal decision for me. I want to feel and look like a woman all over. I also do not like having "it" because of the need to tuck all the time (painful sometimes) and the surprise slips leading to major outings. "It" is a major case of depression and Dysphoria for me, that's all. :)

Lana is right. There are many groups which espouse a theory that goes something like this:

Any legitimate trassexual would want GRS and if given the oppourtunitty will get it. If they dont, they are not transsexual but instead are men, male transgenders, cross dressers or sex fetishists. This is not at all uncommon and I will be honest and say I felt exactly that same way at one point.

At the time it seemed reasonable to me and there are a lot of odd people who use the word trans to describe themselves that I still find unusual in their desires.

Over time though, I came to realise that GRS is not the be all and end all for everyone. Many transition and never get GRS or wait a long time to have it. Some dont feel dyshphoric over that part of there body or ambivalent about it. Some are just plain scared of the surgery and initimidated by the expense. Some would like it but cant afford a top rate surgeon and arent willing to take the risk of anything less. A few arent disturbed by using it as a sexual organ and living in every other way as a female.

I also realised that post-op people had a tendency to consider themselves as superior or more female or more authentic than those pre-op. This in spite of the fact that surgery is often unrealistic if for no other reason than financial. Their air if superiority rubbed me the wrong way, in fact it became downright annoying.

Being transsexual is not something new. But GRS is new, it only became easy to access in the last 20 or 30 years. So were all the many tens of thousands who lived before us not legitmate in some way. What about if they develop the ability to create reproductive capacity in trans women. Will that be the new standard up on which we are judged?

So, over time my opinion changed. I got to meet a number of trans women in person. Both pre-op and post-op. I still think that some of both dont act very female by my standards and came to realise that surgery was a personal decision. That being female has more to do with how you behave and socialize and conduct your life. There is something subtle about it, but once you know how to look for it, its not hard to find.

For myself GRS matters. I could explain it endlessly but put simply I dont feel authentic without it. But others do and that does not make them better or worse than me, just different. I also realised that it has been sold to us by doctors and an entire industry that is geared towards making money off us. An industry dominated by men mostly who also promote the idea that you arent a "real" female without the holy grail of surgeries. Kind of reminds me of all the unrealistic expectations that are pushed onto women in general by the fashion and beauty industry where we are constatly bombarded with images of perfect females with perfect bodies and hair that is always perfect.

So, I changed my mind. I dont think GRS is for everybody nor do I believe it makes any of us more inately female. It never was true and slowly over time we are coming to realise it.

Quote from: amber1964 on January 09, 2014, 04:02:31 PM
Lana is right. There are many groups which espouse a theory that goes something like this:

Any legitimate trassexual would want GRS and if given the oppourtunitty will get it. If they dont, they are not transsexual but instead are men, male transgenders, cross dressers or sex fetishists. This is not at all uncommon and I will be honest and say I felt exactly that same way at one point.

At the time it seemed reasonable to me and there are a lot of odd people who use the word trans to describe themselves that I still find unusual in their desires.

Over time though, I came to realise that GRS is not the be all and end all for everyone. Many transition and never get GRS or wait a long time to have it. Some dont feel dyshphoric over that part of there body or ambivalent about it. Some are just plain scared of the surgery and initimidated by the expense. Some would like it but cant afford a top rate surgeon and arent willing to take the risk of anything less. A few arent disturbed by using it as a sexual organ and living in every other way as a female.

I also realised that post-op people had a tendency to consider themselves as superior or more female or more authentic than those pre-op. This in spite of the fact that surgery is often unrealistic if for no other reason than financial. Their air if superiority rubbed me the wrong way, in fact it became downright annoying.

Being transsexual is not something new. But GRS is new, it only became easy to access in the last 20 or 30 years. So were all the many tens of thousands who lived before us not legitmate in some way. What about if they develop the ability to create reproductive capacity in trans women. Will that be the new standard up on which we are judged?

So, over time my opinion changed. I got to meet a number of trans women in person. Both pre-op and post-op. I still think that some of both dont act very female by my standards and came to realise that surgery was a personal decision. That being female has more to do with how you behave and socialize and conduct your life. There is something subtle about it, but once you know how to look for it, its not hard to find.

For myself GRS matters. I could explain it endlessly but put simply I dont feel authentic without it. But others do and that does not make them better or worse than me, just different. I also realised that it has been sold to us by doctors and an entire industry that is geared towards making money off us. An industry dominated by men mostly who also promote the idea that you arent a "real" female without the holy grail of surgeries. Kind of reminds me of all the unrealistic expectations that are pushed onto women in general by the fashion and beauty industry where we are constatly bombarded with images of perfect females with perfect bodies and hair that is always perfect.

So, I changed my mind. I dont think GRS is for everybody nor do I believe it makes any of us more inately female. It never was true and slowly over time we are coming to realise it.

yes they use to mention this to me in therapy sometimes that if you are female you wont want to live without being corrected and having a vagina. to me i think i understood it and agreed with them after a while but since coming to susans and actually talking to people im learning their are other views to this topic other than what i was told and thought

I know that for me personally, I need to have all my surgeries in order to feel like I've "gotten there." It's not because I feel like a penis makes a man or a vagina makes a woman, I just need that to be comfortable with myself and my body. So from a personal standpoint, I can't really see why someone wouldn't want SRS. However, I realize that just because I don't "get it", doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for themselves. I also don't care to analyze another person to determine their "true gender" lol. If they say they're a guy, I'll call them a guy, if they say they're a girl, they're a girl. Simple as that.

And I figure...if you can save yourself the expense, pain, healing, etc...and be happy with what you have...more power to you. That's where we're all trying to get at the end of the day, right?

Personally, I think the thread title belief is ridiculous. I was a woman long before anybody had a chance to rearrange my genitals; to the extent that I had a "sex change," it was when I legally, publicly, and socially changed my gender marker. GRS was a coda for ME, and me alone. It solved some private and logistical issues and it made me happier with my body, but it did NOT make me a woman. If anything, my life would've been easier had I been able to cope with the bottom dysphoria and remain a woman with a penis; cheaper, too. Heck, I was still willing to stand to pee when I found myself in a disgusting port-o-potty about 3 weeks before my surgery date!

I don't think anyone who's seriously on the fence should be pushed to go through with surgery they don't want and take risks they don't need; what constitutes "enough doubts" is up to that person to decide, too. (I had some doubts. I was still sure I'd be happy afterward. So I'm not in the "if you're only 99% sure then you should wait/be denied" camp, either.) Of course, I guess I'm just disgustingly moderate, b/c I believe it's up to each person to decide what's right for themselves. :) I also don't like the threads about how GRS is guaranteed to be a terrifying nightmare or post-ops are all snotty jerks, since in my experience... well, personal experiences vary!

(I do think to say there are complications "more often than not" is overstating the case a tad, unless "complication" is considered to include all the minor ones as well - like allergies to antibiotics and nausea from the anesthetic - that can happen anytime. Which is not to say that I'm trying to talk anyone into anything, but I had a devil of a time getting accurate facts and statistics on things like complications because of both "sides" getting a little carried away.)

I recently came out to my Mother, and though I'm pretty sure she isn't going to accept me no matter what, she definitely was bullheaded that viewpoint.  It was pretty odd, given that she'd literally JUST finished telling me that I was born male, so I'm a man and there's nothing I can do about it.  She then went on to say "Oh, you haven't done the surgery yet?  Then you're still a man."(paraphrased)  This was pretty much the crap I was expecting, knowing my Mom, but oh well.

Quote from: Jaelithe on January 09, 2014, 06:09:19 PM
I recently came out to my Mother, and though I'm pretty sure she isn't going to accept me no matter what, she definitely was bullheaded that viewpoint.  It was pretty odd, given that she'd literally JUST finished telling me that I was born male, so I'm a man and there's nothing I can do about it.  She then went on to say "Oh, you haven't done the surgery yet?  Then you're still a man."(paraphrased)  This was pretty much the crap I was expecting, knowing my Mom, but oh well.

yeah that seems to be the way most people think. and explaining it to them is so hard as alot of them dont even want to understand

Body modification surgies aren't intended as a "given" for humans. We don't sign ourselves up for many things just because like clipping certain breeds of dogs tails. About the closest thing that we do as humans are piercings and circumcisions.

The surgies are expensive and dangerous and entail more risks than just the "knife". Infection, anesthesia reactions, trouble waking, falls, etc. are all things that happen that don't have anything directly to do with the knife. And yet they happen and at the very least hurt if not kill/maim patients. Also be aware that once you start down that route you are a customer for life. It's the same for any major surgery. Maintenance and revisions are often needed with any kind of surgery and surgeons generally take care of that for you for a fee.

Should you be afraid of GRS/SRS or any other established surgery? No. Surgeons don't sign you up for this kind of thing if they think that you aren't likely to survive, recover and succeed in your goal. It's bad for business and practice/hospital standards really won't let a doctor get away with shoddy work for long before filing formal complaints and charges and finally stripping their privileges. Should you be worried about revisions and follow ups? Nope, the human body changes over time and many of those revisions are for small aesthetic reasons or for additional comfort. Again not many surgeons stay in business and out of prison for long if they aren't actually good at what they do.

I think everyone should have the right to do or not do whatever they want to their bodies within the boundaries of "do no harm". If you think that having SRS will help you then perhaps the benefits out weigh the risks and you should go for it. Otherwise if you're happy then be happy. The same goes for any surgery really. That's the goal right? To be able to be happy with yourself?

Quote from: Christine167 on January 09, 2014, 10:03:46 PM
Body modification surgies aren't intended as a "given" for humans. We don't sign ourselves up for many things just because like clipping certain breeds of dogs tails. About the closest thing that we do as humans are piercings and circumcisions.

The surgies are expensive and dangerous and entail more risks than just the "knife". Infection, anesthesia reactions, trouble waking, falls, etc. are all things that happen that don't have anything directly to do with the knife. And yet they happen and at the very least hurt if not kill/maim patients. Also be aware that once you start down that route you are a customer for life. It's the same for any major surgery. Maintenance and revisions are often needed with any kind of surgery and surgeons generally take care of that for you for a fee.

Should you be afraid of GRS/SRS or any other established surgery? No. Surgeons don't sign you up for this kind of thing if they think that you aren't likely to survive, recover and succeed in your goal. It's bad for business and practice/hospital standards really won't let a doctor get away with shoddy work for long before filing formal complaints and charges and finally stripping their privileges. Should you be worried about revisions and follow ups? Nope, the human body changes over time and many of those revisions are for small aesthetic reasons or for additional comfort. Again not many surgeons stay in business and out of prison for long if they aren't actually good at what they do.

I think everyone should have the right to do or not do whatever they want to their bodies within the boundaries of "do no harm". If you think that having SRS will help you then perhaps the benefits out weigh the risks and you should go for it. Otherwise if you're happy then be happy. The same goes for any surgery really. That's the goal right? To be able to be happy with yourself?

yeah i use to care what people thought about me alot. im seriously, in high school and then sorority life in college you have to care if you want to continue to fit in and not have everyone pick on you for being the trans girl. but after college, srs and everything i really cant say i care to much if the odd person says ,"your not a woman" because i know its not true. if i get arrested i know i still end up on the girls side and even more i get validation  all the time that i am a woman and kinda cute. shallow reasons i know but none the less they work and for me surgery did have alot to do with this perception for me and the depression completely going away. however i do know that surgery is not for everyone. like you said it can be expensive

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
Since I started my transition over 10 years ago I have come across mostly by people who underwent genital surgery that one can not be the chosen gender if they do not have gender reassignment surgery, sex reassignment surgery whatever the hell you want to call it. And it is really pissing me off. And people who knock other people down for being happy with what they were born with or heck even use it for that matter.

Society has evolved and fitting into the stereotypical gender forms are not what everyone wants to do. So by shoving genital surgery down peoples throats I just don't think are cool. More often than not there are major complications. I have talked to so many M2F's who get genital surgery and they candy coat everything. And till coming to Susan's and reading how there are more complications and horror stories and some regretting what they did.

But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

Those people are just ignorant, some women have a penis, and some men have a vagina. That's all there is to it.

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
Since I started my transition over 10 years ago I have come across mostly by people who underwent genital surgery that one can not be the chosen gender if they do not have gender reassignment surgery, sex reassignment surgery whatever the hell you want to call it. And it is really pissing me off. And people who knock other people down for being happy with what they were born with or heck even use it for that matter.

Society has evolved and fitting into the stereotypical gender forms are not what everyone wants to do. So by shoving genital surgery down peoples throats I just don't think are cool. More often than not there are major complications. I have talked to so many M2F's who get genital surgery and they candy coat everything. And till coming to Susan's and reading how there are more complications and horror stories and some regretting what they did.

But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

I don't think theres so much to discuss, it really peoples choice and nobodys busniss if they want and feel it nessesarry to have this surgery or not. (at least it should be) unfurtunatly many place are very binary on the system. alot of country have rules where you HAVE to have that surgery or some kind of bottom surgery hystotomy-and such... to be reconized as male/female by the goverment. =( and yeah also many place transgender are pretty binary. I really dont think it nessesarry to force surgery on anyone who dont find it nessesarry and I get annoyed when people belive thats fair" or "then your real trans kind of provement" once I had a girl who said to my friend (who is mtf) "I wont call you she untill you get a sexchange surgery"
she used over 2 years to save up money for it so I told her "okay if you undergo a surgery and pay (amount money) then I will start calling you she.
---

In Australia at the time of writing this I cannot change my gender markers unless I have had surgery.   It is the extreme expression of this view.

With the thugs in power right now I don't see it changing any time soon. 

Dennis the peasant:  Help,  help!  I am being repressed!

Quote from: Emmaline on January 14, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
In Australia at the time of writing this I cannot change my gender markers unless I have had surgery.   It is the extreme expression of this view.

With the thugs in power right now I don't see it changing any time soon. 

Dennis the peasant:  Help,  help!  I am being repressed!

Actually, you're not.. See my post here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,157697.msg1336129.html#msg1336129

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM
But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

I think its one of those self righteous things. They went through the pains of having it done and they believe its the biggest best thing because they had it done to them. Sort of like bragging almost.  For me I dont plan to have SRS and I dont plan to date men. So I have no need to waste time on SRS personally when that chunk of change can be used for so much more.

Besides we all are the same in a way. We wish to be who we were meant to be. There is no need to hate one another over something petty. There are to many cis people hating us for that. So why are we doing it to ourselves?

Very well said alabamagirl, Natallie553.

I'm glad there are so many views on this and I'm glad to have started this conversation.

>90% of trans people don't have SRS. This is news how? Don't let people get to you. Further one should only have SRS if they need it. It's not a want surgery.   

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AMSince I started my transition over 10 years ago I have come across mostly by people who underwent genital surgery that one can not be the chosen gender if they do not have gender reassignment surgery, sex reassignment surgery whatever the hell you want to call it. And it is really pissing me off. And people who knock other people down for being happy with what they were born with or heck even use it for that matter.

Society has evolved and fitting into the stereotypical gender forms are not what everyone wants to do. So by shoving genital surgery down peoples throats I just don't think are cool. More often than not there are major complications. I have talked to so many M2F's who get genital surgery and they candy coat everything. And till coming to Susan's and reading how there are more complications and horror stories and some regretting what they did.

But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason. I'm rather annoyed that even with in the trans community there is judgement. When there should be non of it. Lets discuss.

So much I want to respond to in this thread, but I'll start here.

Before I start I want to say I'm not judging or targeting anyone.


1. I respect that others choose to not have SRS.  However, I cannot imagine not having it.  From the start I knew what my path would be.  Again, I'm not judging anyone else, I'm saying for ME it (SRS) was a must.

2. A couple people mentioned complications.  My experience is people who are non-op tend to exaggerate these complications.  Most people DO have comlpications, but they are mostly minor ones.  I think people exaggerate complications to make themselves feel better for their own decision not to have SRS.  You don't have to do that folks.

3. Some mentioned the results were unrealistic.  Really?  Do you have any idea of the variation in vulvar appearance in women?  Most transsexual women who have had SRS look fine.  Again, some seem to be trying to justify why they don't get SRS.  You don't have to do that folks.

4. Some mentioned the dismissive attitude of non-trans people ("You're not female if you haven't had the op yet").  Screw these people; seriously.  These folks are just messing with you; making it sound like they will be accepting after you do have SRS.  NOPE!  They simply come up with new excuses then.  The only person you should have SRS for is yourself, period.

5.  I understand some post-op people are arrogant and elitist about SRS, but in my experience they are a small minority.

6.  Some non-op people are surgical phobes.  This often comes out a concern over loss of sexual function.  Well even if I knew going in there was no sensation after I still would have had SRS because that's what I needed for my physical dysphoria. The number of people who lose sensation is very, very small.

7.  On a related front someone said they questioned if SRS was worth dying for.  My answer?  YES it was.  Again, that's my answer and my experience and I realize that's not how others may feel.

8.  Someone said people bragged about SRS as though it was their biggest achievement.  I find that odd myself.  To me it was just one piece of the overall project we call transition.  I count many milestones as being very important to me.

Starting therapy and starting electro; both I did the same month I got a divorce, moved a thousand miles and started a new job.
Starting HRT.  HRT changed my life.  People think I exaggerate, but I never knew how unhappy I was until I started on estrogen.  Overnight I went from being "the glass is half empty" kind of person to "the glass is half full" kind of person.
Next, my legal name change.  It may sound silly, but it was one of the happiest days of my life.
Next, FFS in conjunction with full-time.  The ghost in the mirror was gone and so was that old nightmare of a life.
Last, SRS which was the icing on the cake.

All these things (and more) were part of the process, the medical treatment, that made me whole.  They made the life I have now possible.  I am whole.  At the same time I don't go bragging about SRS and can't understand why others do so OR use that as a basis to judge anyone else.  The key is everyone must do what's best for them.


9. One last point.  MONEY.  I think in a perfect world, where money wasn't an obstacle, there would be a LOT more people having SRS.  But we don't live in a perfect world and people cope the best way they can.  Unfortunately a lot of people who claim to not want SRS really do.  But for a number of reasons (money being #1, surgical fears, religious reasons, familial issues and more) they choose not to.  That's fine, but these people shouldn't go badmouthing SRS as dangerous, unnecessary etc.


10.  Okay I lied, one more point.  Transition is a HIGHLY charged, intensely personal journey unlike any other.  As a result many times we end up being our own worst enemies.  We fight.  We judge.  We sometimes tear others down and they often do the same to us.  It's important to remember that in that respect transition is quite similar to adolescence.  Only unlike for non-trans people we often have to navigate this whole overwhelming phase of life alone.  We most often don't have the benefit of parents and other family members to counsel us and moderate our behavior.  The good news is that for most of us we grow through the process, mature and move on.

Be good to each other.

Do what you need to do for yourself.

Don't worry about what other trans people or non-trans people think.

Resist judging others; they are on their own unique path.

Be true to yourself, listen to your heart and you won't go wrong.


Sorry for the length.

Quote from: Beyond on January 17, 2014, 02:07:09 AM
So much I want to respond to in this thread, but I'll start here.

Before I start I want to say I'm not judging or targeting anyone.


1. I respect that others choose to not have SRS.  However, I cannot imagine not having it.  From the start I knew what my path would be.  Again, I'm not judging anyone else, I'm saying for ME it (SRS) was a must.

2. A couple people mentioned complications. 

3. Some mentioned the results were unrealistic.  Really? 

4. Some mentioned the dismissive attitude of non-trans people ("You're not female if you haven't had the op yet").  Screw these people; seriously. 

5.  I understand some post-op people are arrogant and elitist about SRS, but in my experience they are a small minority.

6.  Some non-op people are surgical phobes. 

7.  On a related front someone said they questioned if SRS was worth dying for.  My answer?  YES it was. 

8.  Someone said people bragged about SRS as though it was their biggest achievement.  I find that odd myself.  To me it was just one piece of the overall project we call transition.  I count many milestones as being very important to me.


9. One last point.  MONEY. 

10.  Okay I lied, one more point.  Transition is a HIGHLY charged, intensely personal journey unlike any other.  As a result many times we end up being our own worst enemies. 

Be good to each other.

Do what you need to do for yourself.

Wow I couldn't agree more with you. I can only say in my case if I lost sexual function, or died on the operating room table it was a risk I was willing to take. I even told my surgeon if I died to make sure the operation was complete. i'm willing to bet that I wasn't the first person to say it to him either. My life would have been incomplete without this operation. To me (and this only means me) I wouldn't have been able to call myself female without it. I would still be able to live a woman's life, but to me I would have almost felt like a man living a womans life, not a female living a womans life. The day after the operation was done I realized I survived and made it and now I would have a life to live.

One thing I do notice about surgery-tracked websites, even from the surgeons themselves, is that they tend to focus on fairly new surgery patients. When I was having surgery, I remember seeing sites with pictures like 10 days post-op and 20 days post-op. What I can say in my humble opinion is that there are no 2 years post-op and 5 years post-op pictures. Because it's by then that life is pretty normal down there and pretty female in appearance by then. So for anyone who is surgery tracked don't base your decison on the realism of the surgery based on a few pictures from online of a recent post-op. It's simply not going to be an accurate indicator of long term healing.

I personally don't judge people, they take their own personal journey as far as they want. For some it's very far and for some it's not very far at all. Who cares though? If someone is happy then that's all that matters. There shouldn't be some kind of ladder to climb. If someone is surgery tracked then it may seem like when they are going through the process of climbing a ladder to get to each next stage, but life really isn't like that. The only thing I will say though is how one person feels (surgery or no surgery) and how society feels are still at odds and I'm not sure that will change soon or even if at all. That's the reality of the world we live in. If we want to change the world's view of us then we will never accomplish it at the ballot box or a court of law. The only way is one person at a time. That's how minds will change and the fear will dissipate.

No one can define someone else, or truly know how they feel.

Anyone reading this, please don't project inner feelings onto others.  With that said, I plan on having surgery pretty soon.

Quote from: Heather on January 09, 2014, 11:43:14 AM
That's people Lana they are always going to be people who look down on you for one reason or another. While I fully plan on and will have the surgery because I decided it was the right thing for me. It's not up to me to tell someone else they have to have the surgery too. Just remember when someone puts you down for something it's normally to mask their on insecurities and I wouldn't let it bother you. :)

I couldn't agree more. TSs in my support group who have had surgery are not snooty at all about it nor push any agenda. We all need to do what works for us when we are able to.

We are what we are, we have what we have.  It is what we are on the inside that matters. 

Having said that, I think that a person has to know and be ready to have SRS.  There is a time and the journey is different for each one of us.  Some were ready long before they started the process.  For others, they do not need it or want it to be happy.

Yet, for me, this is a confusing journey. I'm intersexed.  I got my SRS letter before I had RLE when I got a medical waiver of the requirement.  I had a harder time getting my letter for FFS.  I feel it's going just a little fast and people are pushing and at least a one doctor is either stupid or lied to me last week. 

I want to live as a woman and discover more about myself before I take that next step. I'm tentatively set for the fall but that can change, that can be postponed.  I want FFS first. 

Hugs,

Jen

Quote from: Tanya W on January 09, 2014, 12:19:55 PM

Much to my shock, there is judgement. Much to my shock, there are hierarchies. Much to my shock, there are battles. . . . .  This said, however, given our diversity, friction and judgement seem inevitable.

Amen!

I LOVE that some of us get SRS and some of us don't.  I LOVE that some of us dress "fem"and others dress "butch".   It says that we are just as unique and individual as the rest of the world. 

Even my lovely wife has occasionally been guilty of stereotyping:  "Oh, look, honey, there's another trans woman, go talk to her!"  All I can say is that she meant well. 

Rather than feel threatened by or judgmental about our differences, we ought to celebrate the fact that we are all so unique.   The fact that you made a different decision about your life ultimately validates my decisions about mine:  Neither of us made our decisions because we fit a category.  We made them because we are very unique people.

I love no-ops, pre-ops and post-ops.  God bless us, every one!

Now where's the punch bowl?

I'll add that I'm glad this discussion exists, particularly as someone who regrets having SRS (but does not regret any other part of transition.)

There is a long history of medical and mental health professionals enforcing it as a requirement. It used to be the rule but it's more rare now. I experienced it from multiple therapists and doctors and, ultimately, had SRS due to it - needing to be able to have my legal ID updated, escape their screwing with my HRT every month, etc. And I'm happy for having had SRS for that part, but that's not the same as being happy with how my body was changed by SRS; I very much regret that aspect of SRS.

Back in the day before WPATH became the more reasonable standard of care there was the Harry Benjamin SOC which made doctors and therapists gatekeepers who insisted that one either become male or female through full transition which included SRS. It became an expectation for everyone which was really annoying and I for one am pleased that those draconian rules are now past history.

I know I am female inside.  I've no doubts and my therapist believed it enough to recommend I begin RLE, the next step in my journey.  Long story short, I didn't, for a number of reasons valid or not.  Anyway, while I'd like to eventually undergo SRS, I don't need it to be who I truly am.  I'm already a woman, surgery will only help to give me the appearance of being a woman.  At my age (60) I may never undergo SRS, but I dearly hope that in the not too distant future I'll finally be able to openly live as a woman.  Surgery is just the icing on the cake.

Quote from: Shantel on January 29, 2014, 02:13:10 PM
It became an expectation for everyone which was really annoying and I for one am pleased that those draconian rules are now past history.

Unfortunately, some providers (mostly those in areas where there aren't many other choices) still prefer those older standards and use the fact that the new SoC is a guideline to be far more strict. My treatment was largely since the new SoC but it reflected the older. For example, there's nothing preventing them from holding the standard that one must have an HRT letter in addition to RLE to get HRT (and that happened to friends of mine) or deciding that months more of therapy are required before prescribing HRT even when the patient has an HRT letter.

Quote from: Agent_J on February 03, 2014, 04:31:58 PM
Unfortunately, some providers (mostly those in areas where there aren't many other choices) still prefer those older standards and use the fact that the new SoC is a guideline to be far more strict. My treatment was largely since the new SoC but it reflected the older. For example, there's nothing preventing them from holding the standard that one must have an HRT letter in addition to RLE to get HRT (and that happened to friends of mine) or deciding that months more of therapy are required before prescribing HRT even when the patient has an HRT letter.

That's pretty bogus huh? I sidestepped all that stuff almost 20 years ago now and did an end run around all the rules back then.

Quote from: Shantel on February 03, 2014, 06:55:16 PM
That's pretty bogus huh? I sidestepped all that stuff almost 20 years ago now and did an end run around all the rules back then.

It is. These ones work on the fact that there aren't other choices in the area and that the therapists require going to those doctors as a condition of getting surgery letters (I had to lie to my therapist about who I was seeing for HRT to get my surgery letter.)

Quote from: Agent_J on February 04, 2014, 11:59:13 AM
It is. These ones work on the fact that there aren't other choices in the area and that the therapists require going to those doctors as a condition of getting surgery letters (I had to lie to my therapist about who I was seeing for HRT to get my surgery letter.)

I think a lot of us have had to tell some whoppers down through the years in order to make any forward progress and not be stopped dead in our tracks. Let's face it, there are some unscrupulous professionals who view the TG community as a potential gold mine and regard some individuals as their personal ATM and work diligently at keeping them close at hand for their own purpose rather than see them transition at a normal pace and move on out of their reach.

You said it. I really think that explains a lot of what I endured - having rounds of labs and appointments to change my dose as frequently as monthly after years on HRT, etc. (The rest I think is some cissexism/transphobia - their issues with my manner of dress, etc.)

Hmmm, I might have a very unpopular opinion, but for me, I don't think I'm capable of having SRS. I feel like I would be modifying my body too much from it's natural state. Also, I have this fear that I'll end up feeling "defect". The same goes for FFS. It would be like losing a part of myself (and opening a can worms, that I do not want to open lol!!).

For some reason, I'm fine with HRT though. It's just like, yea you're taking medication, but your body is doing it's natural thing. And very soon I want to get an Orchi, which I'm fine with also. I think I'm happy with somebody "taking" something from my body, but I don't feel right with things being added/changed - if that even makes sense??

Anyway, after saying all that, I have complete respect for anyone who decides to go with SRS, FFS etc... but for me it just doesn't feel right. I mean yes, I really, really do desire to have a more feminine face and the correct... genitals - I just don't know if surgery is right for me. At least not at the moment.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 07, 2014, 01:38:06 PM
For me, I am pretty much sure that I need some FFS (if can call rhinoplasty FFS), but I am currently having certain doubts about SRS too.

I do feel as if I *need* some FFS as well, at least from a practical standpoint, it's just mentally I'm not sure If I can handle it. Who knows, maybe my mind will change on this.

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 07, 2014, 01:38:06 PM
Current plan would be to take things slow, reaaaalllly sloooow and let it all sink down for a couple of years at least. And if someone says that I am not female because of this approach... well, maybe, I am not :D. But I am no male either :).

I hear ya, I feel like this sometimes.

I personally feel there's no need to have any surgeries you don't want to. Heck we are already outside of the norm. Minus well do what makes you happy ;)

I still got a johnny. But ill will get corrected someday.  But for now my drivers license, SSI, and birth certificate all say female.

Quote from: Teela Renee on February 10, 2014, 10:36:56 AM
I still got a johnny. But ill will get corrected someday.  But for now my drivers license, SSI, and birth certificate all say female.

No-one will see johnny, but they do look at the other stuff so good going Teela, you're on a roll!

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM


But yet the ones who got srs talk down to the ones who have no desire to get it done for whatever reason.

The funniest thing is...that they have a prostate and XY chromosomes themselves and are very often bio fathers of (several) children.

So, what's the big deal? They're cosmetic/man made women themselves.

Quote from: Dahlia on February 10, 2014, 12:37:45 PM
The funniest thing is...that they have a prostate and XY chromosomes themselves and are very often bio fathers of (several) children.

So, what's the big deal? They're cosmetic/man made women themselves.

These are a lot of the questions that are coming up. This is what we spent almost 10 Mounties debating this afternoon with some people from Fox News at the panel in Philly. To them them we are perverts and just mutilated men . Odd to see some people in the trans community feel the same way. I guess that's why it's good when the three of us left today we know who we are and have our self esteem. Funny though none the less that this topic is a major one

Externally that is true about chromosomes and body modifications and if all that we are is just a shell it would be pathetic, but we are mind, soul and spirit as well which encompasses so much more of who and what we are than just the physical externalities. The body is simply the shell in which we reside, a cabinet full of complicated, intricate and unique contents.

My biggest reason for wanting srs was for legal reasons - having "f" on ID. That was resolved thanks to the aclu, so I was able to change my gender marker legally without surgery.

I did have a orcheictomy done, and think that is about as much as I want to do. I don't feel a great need for srs anymore - not enough need to go through such a major surgery.

Quote from: Shantel on February 11, 2014, 11:05:51 AM
Externally that is true about chromosomes and body modifications and if all that we are is just a shell it would be pathetic, but we are mind, soul and spirit as well which encompasses so much more of who and what we are than just the physical externalities. The body is simply the shell in which we reside, a cabinet full of complicated, intricate and unique contents.

That's deep. And true.
People always will try to rain on your day.  But at the end of the day you realize your happy and no one else can take that away from you just because they want to spread hate or don't understand. And as Arbon said legal reasons I can understand that. If you ever go to jail in the south you want to make sure you can be Locked up on the proper side

My response to this is the same response I have to most situations:

Only a fool allows others to tell them who and what they are.

-AM

Admittedly I looked down on people (never to their face) on FtMs that didnt want top surgery until like last week. Right before I was going in to get mine done!

I didn't get why someone would want to have boobs if they identified as male...but there's a certain comfort in the body you were born with. It's always been that way, you're used to the way things are. Weird how outlooks can change so quickly.

Quote from: FlightyBrood on February 18, 2014, 06:03:56 PM
Admittedly I looked down on people (never to their face) on FtMs that didnt want top surgery until like last week. Right before I was going in to get mine done!

I didn't get why someone would want to have boobs if they identified as male...but there's a certain comfort in the body you were born with. It's always been that way, you're used to the way things are. Weird how outlooks can change so quickly.

We do have these little mental epiphanies, I did as I considered SRS. Boobs between two friends are warm, squishy and comfy, me and my cis gal are happy with it.

Quote from: FlightyBrood on February 18, 2014, 06:03:56 PM
Admittedly I looked down on people (never to their face) on FtMs that didnt want top surgery until like last week. Right before I was going in to get mine done!

I didn't get why someone would want to have boobs if they identified as male...but there's a certain comfort in the body you were born with. It's always been that way, you're used to the way things are. Weird how outlooks can change so quickly.

Yeah we all have things we don't understand and that can make it hard to understand others

I honestly can say i have my own prejudices in the community. >:-)

Quote from: gowiththeflow on February 18, 2014, 06:58:05 PM
Yeah we all have things we don't understand and that can make it hard to understand others

I usunally think of it like people born with diffrent handicaps

Theres many guys who can't imagine not having a penis, or if an FTM ask a guy "wouldn't you also undergo surgery if you didn't had a penis" they probably would answer yes. But this also due to the fact these guys are used to having a penis and they don't know what it like not to have one.

the same can go for if someone asked me if I would have my left arm back if I got it cut off, I would sure say yes cause im used to having both arms, but for someone who is born with only 1 arm, they may had gotten used to it being like that and not feeling it nessesarry to have 2 while others would like to have an extra arm transplanted.

SRS was the least important part of my transition. I had done HRT, FFS and my social transition was long over, so when it came time to have SRS it was something I just did without giving it much thought.

I've encountered such people that think they are superior to others because they had SRS. However, lack of SRS isn't the only thing that is being used as a tool of oppression and shaming against those who lack a certain property that is deemed essential to being a woman (I don't know if something similar is going on in the ftm camp or not).  Off the top of my head, here's a short list of things that allegedly indicate that one is really nothing but a man playing dress-up:

* Having a good job.
* Having more hair on the body than the average woman.
* Having a large head.
* Having an education.
* Not having been beat up or bullied for being effeminate as a child.
* Having kids.
* Having an intelligence above average.
* Having skills.
* Playing the guitar.
* Having been in a relationship with a woman.
* Liking sports
* Being self-confident, assertive and capable.
* Having transitioned above the age of x (x being the age they themselves transitioned at).

The list goes on and I've even seen such claims made on this site numerous times. It bothers me a great deal when I hear or see people say such things. It is as if they are claiming that in order to be a woman you have to be inferior to a man o_O

I have noticed how certain individuals  are completely dependent on drawing a tight circle around their own feet and declare anyone on the outside as a man who took his cross dressing fetch too far. Basically we are nothing but male interloper out to oppress women from the inside. But of course, such thinking is extremely transparent to anyone who is even one IQ-point above average. It's how they legitimize and justify their own womanhood. They are too insecure about themselves to do that on the merits of who they are as a person, so they have to prop up their egos at the expense of others. They have to crap all over everyone else in order to survive, because how they feel about themselves on the inside just isn't enough on it's own.

There was once a time long ago when I held similar beliefs. I was scared and insecure, so I would collect all the things I saw as positive in myself and declare them essential to being a woman. Over the years though, as I have gain REAL life experience as a woman. I have come to realize that such nonsense is utter crap. If your person(ality) isn't up to snuff, then do something about it! Better yourself as a person instead of just dumping all over everyone else. Seriously, you're just embarrassing yourselves, because most people can see right through it. On the other hand, if you like being seen as a pompous spiteful bitter old person with a superiority complex, then by all means, go right ahead and keep up your childish nonsense. Personally I am too far developed as a person to fall for these cheap master-suppression techniques. 

(Should my post contain the wrong words in the wrong places, chalk it up to auto-mistake being engaged on my mobile device).

Quote from: MariaMx on February 23, 2014, 04:58:55 AM
* Having a good job.
* Having more hair on the body than the average woman.
* Having a large head.
* Having an education.
* Not having been beat up or bullied for being effeminate as a child.
* Having kids.
* Having an intelligence above average.
* Having skills.
* Playing the guitar.
* Having been in a relationship with a woman.
* Liking sports
* Being self-confident, assertive and capable.
* Having transitioned above the age of x (x being the age they themselves transitioned at).

Maria, you basically just described me in bullet form.  It's uncanny!  :)

Honestly, this is something that kept me from transitioning earlier in life.  I haven't HATED every minute of being a guy, and I don't have the tragic story that so many trans people have had.  And I've heard a lot of them say that their only options were transition or death.  Transition or death?  Really?  I'm just not that dramatic about anything in life.  So for the longest time I felt like I couldn't really be transgender.

It seems like for many, SRS signals the end of transition.  And many who had been active in the trans community start to distance themselves and move on.  I can understand why that would be difficult for the activists to identify with.  They're fighting to defend our place in society...fighting against the standard definitions of gender.  They're activists.  And God bless them.  I'm just not that, but I do understand their difficulty with those of us who want to transition and go stealth as soon as possible.  For me, transition is a means to an end.  I don't want to be trans...I want to be a woman. The universe put me in a sticky situation, but I'm going to do my best to get through it.  And chromosomes aside, I intend to move on in every other way.

And of course having a vagina is one of the things I'm most looking forward to.  :)

Quote from: MariaMx on February 23, 2014, 04:58:55 AM

I have noticed how certain individuals  are completely dependent on drawing a tight circle around their own feet and declare anyone on the outside as a man who took his cross dressing fetch too far. Basically we are nothing but male interloper out to oppress women from the inside. But of course, such thinking is extremely transparent to anyone who is even one IQ-point above average. It's how they legitimize and justify their own womanhood. They are too insecure about themselves to do that on the merits of who they are as a person, so they have to prop up their egos at the expense of others. They have to crap all over everyone else in order to survive, because how they feel about themselves on the inside just isn't enough on it's own.

This reminds me of a hand shake when an alpha-male grips the other's hand like a vise and then puts his thumb down hard on the other's thumb thus trapping it and asserting dominance. It's the same behavioral stuff as you have cited above, that drive for dominance that they have not let go of and it's really quite pathetic and pitiable!

Maria, you are so very right. Especially this : "I have noticed how certain individuals  are completely dependent on drawing a tight circle around their own feet and declare anyone on the outside as a man who took his cross dressing fetch too far."

Personally, I think we have to accept that anyone who identifies as a given gender (or lack thereof) is the only expert on their own existence... because the alternative is to draw lines that allow the cis population to declare that we ourselves are fakes and liars who don't deserve rights. As soon as we say "There is a way to tell the True Transsexuals from the rest," we've established the precedent that will allow others to class us with "the rest."

Quote from: Emmaline on January 14, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
In Australia at the time of writing this I cannot change my gender markers unless I have had surgery.   It is the extreme expression of this view.

With the thugs in power right now I don't see it changing any time soon. 

Dennis the peasant:  Help,  help!  I am being repressed!


I'm a post-op TS woman in Malaysia, though I've had my SRS, AM & FFS, I'm not allowed to have my new gender and name changed on my ID card or passport. I'm being denied basic human rights, I got to know thru Internet that many countries allow their citizens who have had SRS to have their new gender and name updated on ID cards and passports and other legal documents including Iran an Islamic country, why on earth doesn't the Malaysian government legally recognize my female status??? Do you know how much stress I'm under? My appearance says I'm female but my identity card and passport say I'm MALE OMG!!! Thanks to the Malaysian governtment, because my ID card says I'm male, I get rejected when seeking employment, so I'm being forced to be a sex worker, but it's illegal engaging in sex work in Malaysia..Does Malaysia government want to force me to commit suicide or something??? Am I still being regarded as a human???

Quote from: FlightyBrood on February 18, 2014, 06:03:56 PM
Admittedly I looked down on people (never to their face) on FtMs that didnt want top surgery until like last week. Right before I was going in to get mine done!

I didn't get why someone would want to have boobs if they identified as male...but there's a certain comfort in the body you were born with. It's always been that way, you're used to the way things are. Weird how outlooks can change so quickly.

Its the same for a mtf, walking in and knowing your about to have your lower parts chopped and rearranged isnt exactly pleasing to think about.

Quote from: snapfie on April 02, 2014, 06:07:33 PM

Quote from: Emmaline on January 14, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
In Australia at the time of writing this I cannot change my gender markers unless I have had surgery.   It is the extreme expression of this view.

With the thugs in power right now I don't see it changing any time soon. 

Dennis the peasant:  Help,  help!  I am being repressed!


I'm a post-op TS woman in Malaysia, though I've had my SRS, AM & FFS, I'm not allowed to have my new gender and name changed on my ID card or passport. I'm being denied basic human rights, I got to know thru Internet that many countries allow their citizens who have had SRS to have their new gender and name updated on ID cards and passports and other legal documents including Iran an Islamic country, why on earth doesn't the Malaysian government legally recognize my female status??? Do you know how much stress I'm under? My appearance says I'm female but my identity card and passport say I'm MALE OMG!!! Thanks to the Malaysian governtment, because my ID card says I'm male, I get rejected when seeking employment, so I'm being forced to be a sex worker, but it's illegal engaging in sex work in Malaysia..Does Malaysia government want to force me to commit suicide or something??? Am I still being regarded as a human???

Ditto with Indians and Thais from what I understand. I'm not sure why but there is a cluster of countries there that are stubborn about changing official identifications. My own state and country (Missouri, United States) are not considered particularly forward thinking, yet a few hoops later ID's can routinely be changed. I've already done mine and as shown, my visit to Dr Bowers is in the near future. I think one difference is dang near -anything- can be argued in court in these litigious United States.

To me its more of the feeling inside that counts. you dont have to get srs if u dont want to. If u do cool beans. If you dont cool beans.

Plus people only like to tell the good stories of srs imo. Who wants to hear the negative ones,  not people who want srs that for damn sure.

Quote from: Miyah48 on April 03, 2014, 01:59:46 PM
Plus people only like to tell the good stories of srs imo. Who wants to hear the negative ones,  not people who want srs that for damn sure.

Those who have bad experiences, either with results of SRS or just with having had SRS, are often ostracized from trans communities. I've been banned from several online for that reason.

Quote from: Agent_J on April 03, 2014, 02:51:40 PM
Those who have bad experiences, either with results of SRS or just with having had SRS, are often ostracized from trans communities. I've been banned from several online for that reason.

I just had to come up with a word for tht. It is Rediculousness

IF you seek to modify secondary sex characteristics you are a transsexual regardless of which genitals you have. A non-OP transsexual can very well identify as target gender without having genital dysphoria. I never understood why people spit on adaptability as if not being miserable and not want to chop off your outie every time you shower makes you less of a woman.

Heck I'm not even binary identified I identify as polygender, had next to zero genital dysphoria, had kids and still got SRS. Bite me.

Just came across this interesting thread which seems to have petered out a few weeks ago. First thing I noted was how civil it remained in spite of the passions this subject rather strangely tends to release.

Anyway as a very pragmatic late transitioner (amazing how pragmatic we tend to become about everything with age..  :)) I'm yet another one of those who comes down on the side of personal choice ie. you do GRS if you feel the need to do it and have the means to follow through, you don't do it if you can't answer yes to both of the preceeding conditions. GRS does not define your female identity but may provide a more comfortable existance living openly with that identity, especially if you are into guys. (Nota: I'm not and am very happily married with a woman who accepts me as I am)

I'm also one of those who believes GRS is about the very last step to undertake in a transition, when you are absolutely sure that you are comfortable with your life as a woman ie. after a successful social transition.

The major steps in my own transition by order were, HRT, FFS , fulltime in my private life, full time in all dimensions of my life, all of that over a period of almost 5 years.  Until I had transitioned socially, I hardly gave a thought to GRS, my priority of priorities was succeeding the social transition. However, now that I am living full time with a Civil Identity Change procedure going through the French legal system (still very complex with no certainty about the outcome unless you have done GRS), the subject has become far more important.

The catalyst for a big change in my own needs was filing for my Civil Identity Change which goes far beyond a name change. Assuming it comes through, every official document which concerns me from my birth certificate through to my mariage licence, social security card, passport etc.. wil be changed with an F replacing the M. Thinking about that, I just didn't see myself living out the rest of my life, legally a woman, with such a visible vestige of my former life still hanging around (excuse the pun  ;))

There are also simple practical issues like being able to undress in public, not having to tuck, being able to wear absolutely any sorts of clothes I want etc.. and closely associated with this, some esthetic issues... I far prefer the appearance of a female crotch to a male crotch.

Lastly, as my Civil Identity Change has still not been processed almost 8 months since I made the filing and I really need to get this sorted out, doing GRS should remain any possible obstacle to getting a favorable decision.   

These were all the reasons for doing GRS, counter balanced until recently by a whole series of obstacles, most important of which were getting the necessary time off from work and my fear of the surgery itself, especially coming quite soon after an already heavy schedule of surgery almost every year since 2011

Since I am out of work at the end of July and want to be absolutely certain that my transition is completely over before getting into my next professional activity, the decision to do GRS  recently fell like a ripe fruit. It was just obvious that the time had come to get it done and so it will be, this coming August.

I'd like to think that we should all be able to go about GRS in this manner, the need coming from inside rather than outside (while admitting that what comes from inside is nevertheless very often driven from outside..).

Today, to feel fully comfortable living out the rest of my life as a woman, I do feel the need to do GRS but 12 months ago I wouldn't have said the same thing and would certainly have resented being told by anyone that I somehow didn't qualify as TG because of this.

In my eyes, anyone whose gender identity is significantly different to that associated with their biological sex is transgender . How they chose to live out that reality is down to their personal choice and the practical issues  they have to deal with in their own unique circomstances.

My 2 c's worth et bon dimanche!
Donna

 

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on April 02, 2014, 08:06:24 PM

Ditto with Indians and Thais from what I understand. I'm not sure why but there is a cluster of countries there that are stubborn about changing official identifications. My own state and country (Missouri, United States) are not considered particularly forward thinking, yet a few hoops later ID's can routinely be changed. I've already done mine and as shown, my visit to Dr Bowers is in the near future. I think one difference is dang near -anything- can be argued in court in these litigious United States.

yes still be Mr. on my Thai passport .. & Thai identification card & Thai driving license ..

There's a huge amount of judgmental attitudes in the trans community many times directed towards other trans people. There is a thread going on in the FTM forum right now which looks somewhat similar. Basically there the idea that certain types of thinking or behavior are required to be transgender. There are no rules like this. I believe this sort of attitude is either ignorant (not knowing that much about transgender) or antagonist (I know but I don't care I'm going to make up my own rules). The transgender umbrella is very large. The notion of some kind of gentalia determining who is what gender? Well were you are a girl (if you are MTF) at whatever age you were when you figured out you were a girl? What about some female with cancer who has had a vaginectomy? What about a guy who has lost his penis during war or accidents?

This stuff just ticks me off. Sorry, rant mode off.

--Jay

I have mostly stopped even answering direct questions about my genitalia. It's not anyone's business and has nothing to do with whether I am a "real" man or woman.

Even when it is socially awkard (I'm not perfect) I try very hard to respect everyone's stated gender. If a person with breasts says he's a guy or a person with a beard says she's a girl, that is up to them and not any different than my being a man who has given birth to a child. I'm desperate for people to treat me like a normal guy when they aren't already, and I am sure everyone else also wants to be treated like the person they know they are.

Getting criticism about surgeries is pure ignorance from cispeople, and unhealthy defensiveness from transpeople.

Aleon and Felix, such good comments and I am on the same page with you and am forever consoling those who for some peer group or group think reason that they have to have SRS to be real and they lament endlessly over this when I am compelled to point out that unless they plan to be a porn star, no-one will ever have to know anything about what type of genitalia they happen to possess. I say this because so many just don't have the financial resources or are morbidly afraid of such invasive surgery and it's possible outcomes. I want to introduce the idea to them that if it's not broken don't fix it! I know there are many who have pure loathing for their genitalia and are absolutely driven to change it and so be it, more power to them, but it is wrong and patently evil to insist that as long as you have a wart on your nose everybody else should have one before they can be a real witch.

Quote from: Shantel on May 13, 2014, 10:02:55 AM
Aleon and Felix, such good comments and I am on the same page with you and am forever consoling those who for some peer group or group think reason that they have to have SRS to be real and they lament endlessly over this when I am compelled to point out that unless they plan to be a porn star, no-one will ever have to know anything about what type of genitalia they happen to possess. I say this because so many just don't have the financial resources or are morbidly afraid of such invasive surgery and it's possible outcomes. I want to introduce the idea to them that if it's not broken don't fix it! I know there are many who have pure loathing for their genitalia and are absolutely driven to change it and so be it, more power to them, but it is wrong and patently evil to insist that as long as you have a wart on your nose everybody else should have one before they can be a real witch.

Thanks! :) I believe a lot of these views are based on ignorance that gender identity and sex assigned at birth are one in the same. Once you understand that this is not the case you can make your own decisions. If someone feels they need surgery for other reasons, that's another matter. But to do it due to prejudices in our own community seems uniquely mean. Keep your pants up or your skirt down, I mean who is looking really?

--Jay

Why is it that so many people can't wrap their pea brains around the fact that gender is between your ears and not your legs?

Several years ago, before I even began to think about transition as a remote possibility, some ignoranus (Jill-ism intended) co-worker went on a rant about his disgust for transgender women and said that if you have a penis, you are a man, end of story.   I had to ask him that if he had his junk chomped off if he would suddenly identify as a woman.

Quote from: Jill F on May 13, 2014, 12:25:55 PM
Why is it that so many people can't wrap their pea brains around the fact that gender is between your ears and not your legs?

Several years ago, before I even began to think about transition as a remote possibility, some ignoranus (Jill-ism intended) co-worker went on a rant about his disgust for transgender women and said that if you have a penis, you are a man, end of story.   I had to ask him that if he had his junk chomped off if he would suddenly identify as a woman.

Good come back! I like the Jill-ism, very descriptive!

Quote from: Jill F on May 13, 2014, 12:25:55 PM
Why is it that so many people can't wrap their pea brains around the fact that gender is between your ears and not your legs?

Several years ago, before I even began to think about transition as a remote possibility, some ignoranus (Jill-ism intended) co-worker went on a rant about his disgust for transgender women and said that if you have a penis, you are a man, end of story.   I had to ask him that if he had his junk chomped off if he would suddenly identify as a woman.

I heard it worded "sexual orientation is who you go to bed WITH, and gender is who you go to bed AS."

--Jay

Quote from: @Diana on May 11, 2014, 05:58:10 AM
yes still be Mr. on my Thai passport .. & Thai identification card & Thai driving license ..

So lots of people have been very wrong by saying that Thailand is a paradise for transsexuals... As far as I'm concerned, even other asian countries are better than Thailand such as Singapore, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, etc. coz the governments of these countries legally recognize post SRS transsexuals as being FEMALE... I plan to move to Singapore if possible, this world is so very unfair, you see, in some parts of the world transsexuals or transgenders who have not undergone SRS but are allowed to have their gender marker changed legally, unfair unfair unfair so <Not Permitted> unfair world I'm living in !!!

Mode Edit:Language

Yeah there are sometimes jerks in the community, as in any community.

I don't think it matters if you have it or not. To each their own. Just because I can't conceive a child, does that make me less of a woman? No, a woman is a woman, doesn't matter what she has or has not got between her legs.

Love,
Clare

I will probably never go through GRS , don't need it . I'm superfeminin in my way of behaving , feeling , speaking , thinking and hopefully with HRT also in the way I will look . In the streets , who will ever know what I have down there ? Could one tell that I would be anything else than a woman ? None whatsoever . Would a guy who really , really likes me reject me for not having a vagina ? I cannot imagine that happening .
I won't be telling anybody I didn't get GRS . If they'll ask me if I got all my surgeries , I'll insist that I had . I will even tell them that I went to doctor Suporn .

In the end , it won't matter anything that I didn't get GRS . I will have the same opportunities every post op girl has .

And I definitely will not feel any less than a post op girl for being non op .

My decision to work on getting SRS has a lot to do with my dysphoria and my desire to get as close to "matching" a cis man's body as possible, because I feel that I was born in the wrong body. I don't think any less of people who don't have that desire, or who don't feel they were born in the wrong body, or anything like that, though. As far as I'm concerned, as long as you identify as a gender, you ARE that gender.

Every humans are difference and has difference needs. I have never seen two 110% alike people. I respect people's own decision over their own bodies and it's up to them what they would do. Some needs bottom surgery, other don't. I have heard many scary histories, heard much negative about bottom surgery and there are many horror stories at the Internet. So I understand people may be scared. We experience difference dysphoria and much other things. We know us self best and nobody know you better than yourself. I understand people wouldn't undergo that surgery, because many difference reasons. Example fear/phobia, horror stories, prices, low dysphoria etc. But I also understand people choose to undergo it, because genital dysphoria.  :)  :)  :)

I think we all should respect each others decision and transistion. We all have our own personal journey.

Quote from: MtFGenderQueer on January 12, 2016, 06:50:14 PM
I won't be telling anybody I didn't get GRS . If they'll ask me if I got all my surgeries , I'll insist that I had . I will even tell them that I went to doctor Suporn .

I'm exactly the opposite. If I ever have SRS I'm not telling anyone. I'm presenting male, and it would be rather awkward. It would even be Suporn as well, he's my favourite.

With respect to the original post, and again the opposite, so if I go and have SRS and keep presenting male does that mean I'm male or female? I'm on HRT, so I've got all the usual, but for practical issues I've kept my facial hair and present male.

It's messing with my head, so I tend to feel male internally a lot, but I also have female stuff going on as well. If I had SRS and got rid of the hair the only difference to other M2F would be presentation. Does presentation make me male or female?

Occasionally people post wanting SRS and still identify as male (not me, I want to identify female, I just can't), so I think you can have SRS and not be female.

All that means that having SRS or not means whatever you want it to, for yourself. Other people will as usual think whatever they want as well.

This is a somewhat old thread but I'm glad it came back up.

I've been on the fence about getting a vaginoplasty and at one time thought I would stay non-op but I think I do want it for a number of reasons.

I know two Trans women that I didn't meet here or through a connection here in person. One is pre/non-op transitioned in her 50s and the other is post op, transitioned when she was 19.

Both of them said honestly that they really don't care about surgical status. I asked the post op one about sex and dating and she said that there are plenty of things I could do as a pre op person.

But for me in the end my current genital configuration causes me dysphoria. So I don't think I will be getting intimate with anyone until I'm post op.

And it's a real concern now because I am getting attention and dating is a thing. So sooner rather than later.

There is also clothing choice. I hate not being able to wear what I want. Wearing pants is always a struggle.

I am afraid of a few things - for one, I afraid that some better procedure will come along and I will be stuck with the older one. Two things I hate about current vaginoplasties- dilation and lack of sufficient lubrication. I know some self lube but I heard that in many cases it's not enough for sex. With stem cell tech progressing I'm wondering if it would be worth it to wait. Probably not but you never know. I don't think I will wait.

As for telling people. Nope. I won't tell anyone my surgical status except people I am very close to.

Quote from: iKate on January 18, 2016, 06:25:56 AM
This is a somewhat old thread but I'm glad it came back up.

I've been on the fence about getting a vaginoplasty and at one time thought I would stay non-op but I think I do want it for a number of reasons.

I know two Trans women that I didn't meet here or through a connection here in person. One is pre/non-op transitioned in her 50s and the other is post op, transitioned when she was 19.

Both of them said honestly that they really don't care about surgical status. I asked the post op one about sex and dating and she said that there are plenty of things I could do as a pre op person.

But for me in the end my current genital configuration causes me dysphoria. So I don't think I will be getting intimate with anyone until I'm post op.

And it's a real concern now because I am getting attention and dating is a thing. So sooner rather than later.

There is also clothing choice. I hate not being able to wear what I want. Wearing pants is always a struggle.

I am afraid of a few things - for one, I afraid that some better procedure will come along and I will be stuck with the older one. Two things I hate about current vaginoplasties- dilation and lack of sufficient lubrication. I know some self lube but I heard that in many cases it's not enough for sex. With stem cell tech progressing I'm wondering if it would be worth it to wait. Probably not but you never know. I don't think I will wait.

As for telling people. Nope. I won't tell anyone my surgical status except people I am very close to.

I am right there with you on a lot of your feelings.
When I look at myself in the mirror, I feel revulsion at what I see staring back at me from a genitalia perspective.
It is the hardest thing for me to deal with and has virtually eliminated my sex life with my wife. Because I don't want to see or use that thing.

*hugs*

I'm trans and won't be getting grs,i've gotten used too being both female and male. I've been told by the trans community that because I won't take hrt or have grs I'm not trans but a crossdresser. Which caused me to distance myself from the trans community because of bigots. As for me I'm a woman who puts on a mansuit, or a man who puts on a womansuit, the problem with me is I'm both female and male and killing off one side is too me like cutting off a arm. Susan's site is the only trans resource page I've not gotten kicked off because of who I am. My advice is live life.

Quote from: iKate on January 18, 2016, 06:25:56 AM



I am afraid of a few things - for one, I afraid that some better procedure will come along and I will be stuck with the older one.  With stem cell tech progressing I'm wondering if it would be worth it to wait. Probably not but you never know. I don't think I will wait.

I am so glad I am not the only person who thinks like this. I'm not impressed with the results of FTM lower surgeries, but my bottom dysphoria is pretty bad. I'm constantly debating in my mind whether it's better to wait and hope for new technology, so just go with the best available right now.

I also believe that it does not matter what you do or how you do it as long as you are happy.

I am ready to have SRS.

But every one is different and live different lives and have their own minds.

No one should judge or tell you how it should be.

Live YOUR life the way you feel happy.

Quote from: Lana P on January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM

Society has evolved and fitting into the stereotypical gender forms are not what everyone wants to do. So by shoving genital surgery down peoples throats I just don't think are cool. More often than not there are major

Great post and spot on. As with ex-smokers, sometimes the most evangelical people are converts. This can stem from fear and insecurity on their part. Exclusion of others is a type of psychological and social need for their own identity. SRS is really important for some people though and sets a key marker for their own gender transition, albeit one fraught with dangers of gender reductionism e.g. why stop at a vagina not a womb? But it does really matter for many people and when I have mine I may feel like that too.

I'm increasingly convinced though that gender is complex and fluid. In some ways I'd like to see us do away with M and F altogether and recognise that everyone exists somewhere on a continuum.

This blog addressed the issue too: http://ricardhos.tumblr.com/post/136670175953/a-trans-response-to-greer-humphries (http://ricardhos.tumblr.com/post/136670175953/a-trans-response-to-greer-humphries)

Quote from: green27 on January 21, 2016, 02:12:41 AM
I am so glad I am not the only person who thinks like this. I'm not impressed with the results of FTM lower surgeries, but my bottom dysphoria is pretty bad. I'm constantly debating in my mind whether it's better to wait and hope for new technology, so just go with the best available right now.

From what I understand with FTMs the situation is much worse. MTF bottom surgery at least produces something which is very close to a cis vagina with small differences. But FTMs have to make compromises. And I really feel for you.

The good news is that lab grown phalluses are being developed so a better solution for FTMs may not be that far off.

Yep, but just so long as we remember there is no holy grail of gender body organ. Gender's so much more complex than this or that part of the body. In my opinion ;)
xx

In Norway, where I'm from, it works like you can't even change your legal gender before after the "sex corrective surgery".