do you have a rationale for RLE, real life experience, to be a valid or invalid means for determining whether or not this is truly what you want for your life. Just curious because there's such strong view points involved maybe some rationale for the view points would help in understanding. I know I can some what "pass" with enough proper make up , so it doesn't really phase me one way or the other. Even if I don't totally pass my attitude is That it's my health my life and I do what is needed to be done. So, given the opportunity to go at your own pace and jump in when your ready does it make sense on any level to try living the way your going to be living the rest of your life in order judge whether or not an operation of this magnitude is right for you. Maybe there are people who would be happy just to have the operation and still live totally male, I don't know. It seems like if you could do it at your own pace when your ready it doesn't seem it should be a big deal. I mean no harm to any one just trying to understand better.
I think rle is important in giving someone a taste of what life will be like. It likely won't show the whole picture, but it beats just jumping in with both feet and getting everything done before you even know if you can or really want to live as your target sex.
It doesn't eliminate regretters, but I think it can help make it less likely for those who do end up fully transitioning, whether they get srs or not.
That's a complicated question.
RLE for GRS (I mostly support this):
In the vast majority of cases, I think this is a good thing. Most people who want to have GRS have a desire to live as that genital configuration's typically associated gender. Seeing as those two desires are closely entwined, it's best to see if the more easily changeable one, socialization - which doesn't necessarily rely on having the desired genital configuration - is agreeable to that person before undergoing something both expensive and permanent.
However, there are some people who have no desire to transition to a new gender, but want the surgery. I am a strong believer in personal freedom with the body; I don't think GRS is only for people who are afflicted with a gender identity issue. RLE is a gate keeper to these rare, but very real, people.
RLE for HRT (I do not support this):
I think it's valid for a small minority of people on the basis that they have a deeply gross misinterpretation of life as they desire it, but I think it's invalid for most people. Here's a list of my reasons:
-It's an unrealistic representation of potential life for a lot of people. You cannot RLE FFS, GRS, HRT, etc. RLE at a pre-everything stage would only give someone a representation of how the world interacts with them pre-everything, not how the world would interact with them where they intend to be.
-Life could stay essentially the same for some people. Someone might dress unisex. Someone might want to be a girl who dresses like a boy, or a boy who dresses like a girl. The lines for a person's transition are blurry and not as clear cut as HRT RLE would like to have them.
-It could unrealistically scare someone away. Someone who could potentially deal with social life after FFS/HRT could be bullied out of it by going in with a fairly vacant transition toolset. This could lead to a myriad of other issues, such as depression and suicide.
-It can be dangerous. People in more violent areas -- or even just a RLE subject with a very bad turn of luck -- could find themselves the subject of violence, given how much they stand out.
Just to be clear, I didn't mention hrt in my earlier post as I see no need for rle before hrt. Its only required by those doctors that are still using outdated guidelines and seem to not care or possibly even want their patients to get a taste of what real humiliation is like. I never entertained the thought of rle before hrt and none of my doctors suggested it either.
I modified my post for you, Petunia. From what I've heard, RLE for HRT is still pretty common in many countries, like the UK and (I think, but I'm not certain) Australia. I know it's mandated in several countries where you would absolutely expect them to be more supportive. I live in the U.S., so I don't keep up with it terribly well.
I live in the UK. RLE is necessary (3 months) before you can access any treatment. I am sorry but the question makes no sense. Over here hou either do RLE and get access to the rest of the treatment or you don't. Note that despite anything I may have thought and/or said earlier in my transition I do not necessarily think this is a bad thing.
Rosie.
My 2 months so far off RLE are invalid because no hormones yet, but that isn't my fault.
Invalid as I don't believe they go toward the 1 year RLE requirement for SRS. Which wouldn't happen for another 15 months or so in the first place.
EDIT: that and my friends and I are the only ones who acknowledge me as female so it really doesn't feel like RLE anyways, with everyone calling me sir, bro, dude, etc.
RLE should be where you live as you are going to live, and should be for you alone and not to prove to some doctor or therapist. There shouldn't be rules about what RLE consists of because it's your life and it's going to be your life so it should be real. I don't know if I'm making any sense.
It all comes down to your therapist. They are the ones who say you have a valid RLE. So check with your therapist and ask them what they need to validate your RLE.
Me i think it is one of the best things you can do for yourself. To get out and live as you 24/7. It also gives you the time to get your name changed and other paperwork changed over to your new gender.
RLT is not really a test, it is really you just starting you new gender role before GCS.
Isabell
I certainly didn't go full time because someone said I had to. I went full time because I wanted to and was able.
The good news is that in just 2 more weeks I will have my walking papers in hand.
Quote from: Jill F on February 16, 2014, 06:01:24 PM
I certainly didn't go full time because someone said I had to. I went full time because I wanted to and was able.
The good news is that in just 2 more weeks I will have my walking papers in hand.
good luck
What?! Australia needs RLE to start hrt? Oh my god I will never be able to pass as I am now :(
Quote from: Annabelle on February 17, 2014, 01:51:21 AM
What?! Australia needs RLE to start hrt? Oh my god I will never be able to pass as I am now :(
Ahh.. Nope..
Quote from: H, H, H, Honeypot! on February 16, 2014, 03:05:54 PM
I live in the UK. RLE is necessary (3 months) before you can access any treatment. I am sorry but the question makes no sense. Over here hou either do RLE and get access to the rest of the treatment or you don't. Note that despite anything I may have thought and/or said earlier in my transition I do not necessarily think this is a bad thing.
Rosie.
Under the new protocol RLE is no longer required before HRT in the UK.
I have no real objection to RLT/RLE, which is in my past. I was a little annoyed that my psychologist was particular about the start date she would recognize, (somewhat after legal name change, work change and full notification of all relatives.) In my full transition case so be it, but that wouldn't work very well for variety of other people.
I was full-time-except-work well before the actual start of my RLE. I had no issues during my year of RLE, or since of ever wishing for a different situation.
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on February 16, 2014, 04:44:26 PM
RLE should be where you live as you are going to live, and should be for you alone and not to prove to some doctor or therapist. There shouldn't be rules about what RLE consists of because it's your life and it's going to be your life so it should be real. I don't know if I'm making any sense.
My opinion exactly. I think RLE is valuable so long as it is primarily for yourself. There are so many modes of female expression and no one should be allowed to say which one we need to experience so that we can access hormones or surgery. This always makes me think about my sister in law: she is GG but doesn't shave her legs, wear feminine clothing or put on make up. But she would get very upset if someone described her as masculine.
I dont get this problem with the RLE its a absolute necessity. I don't know about the USA but changing your name in the Uk takes about 10 minutes and costs next to nothing. , , people are afraid of taking abuse, well pro tip if you cant handle being shouted and and abused in the street, this probably isn't for you, I have taken a lot of abuse over the years, though i must admit after having ffs its almost completely stopped. I mean you are going to be doing this for the rest of your life any way, i was already living full time when i first went to the gender clinique.
Quote from: Annabelle on February 17, 2014, 01:51:21 AM
What?! Australia needs RLE to start hrt? Oh my god I will never be able to pass as I am now :(
i don't think HRT will change that. No one passes when they first come out.. its part of the journey. Im 30 now and have been out since i was 19, its only recently i pass pretty much.
Honestly, I see it as a goal, and a part of a natural progression of transition. It should take place after enough HRT and other measures have been taken to ensure a reasonable passability.
I for one want to be able to go "full time" ASAP....so badly that it hurts. That is the whole point of my transition...to be ME, and to be able to live as the woman I am. As soon as I can pass I will enter this phase for the rest of my life. That will be my "RLE"; My life.
I don't feel that someone should be forced to do this before they are ready. It is a very personal thing, and it can be quite dangerous if one does not pass, as we sadly see in the news occasionally. Forcing someone to endanger their life and endure ridicule and abuse to "prove" that they deserve and are ready for treatment is barbaric and wrong.
AS far as being a requirement for GRS, I honestly feel that anyone with the money and the desire should be able to modify their own body in any way that they want. IMO, society's regulations and rules end where my skin starts.
Quote from: TaoRaven on February 17, 2014, 09:24:27 AM
Honestly, I see it as a goal, and a part of a natural progression of transition. It should take place after enough HRT and other measures have been taken to ensure a reasonable passability.
I for one want to be able to go "full time" ASAP....so badly that it hurts. That is the whole point of my transition...to be ME, and to be able to live as the woman I am. As soon as I can pass I will enter this phase for the rest of my life. That will be my "RLE"; My life.
I don't feel that someone should be forced to do this before they are ready. It is a very personal thing, and it can be quite dangerous if one does not pass, as we sadly see in the news occasionally. Forcing someone to endanger their life and endure ridicule and abuse to "prove" that they deserve and are ready for treatment is barbaric and wrong.
AS far as being a requirement for GRS, I honestly feel that anyone with the money and the desire should be able to modify their own body in any way that they want. IMO, society's regulations and rules end where my skin starts.
Life is dangerous. You are going to get abuse, no way will you be able to pass at first, if you cant put yourself through that then like i said this might not be for you.
RLE is about EXPERIENCE, thus the 'E' in RLE. It is not a test. It is not for doctors or therapists it is for YOU. Its purpose is very, very simple - to let you see how it feels to be socialised as female before you start making major changes to your body.
It became a "gatekeeping" method when the doctors gave people what they wanted and a significant number never (in their own minds) feminised enough to go full time. "Oh my God - I simply cannot go full time. I am not feminine enough. Give me more drugs/surgery". These people can wind up with feminised bodies whilst convinced they are not "passing" and so must stay male. They wind up with a massive case of dysphoria worse than what they started with. Many became recluses. Many blamed the doctors who got fed up with the blame and the threats of law suits.
So what we now have is that the medical profession wants to see you socialising. They do not want to produce a crop of reclusively, depressed dysphorics. The idea is to improve things for you, not to make you worse. What a weird concept - doctors want to make things better. Who would have thought it?
There are people on this very forum who repeatedly state that they will never pass. Some of them are already on HRT and they still say this. There have been ones who have had SRS or FFS and they still say this. They are putting the cart before the horse and wondering why things do not work. I have seen posts here of people who seem pefectly passable from their piccies and they are banging on about having their femurs shortened or their hips broken and widened. I feel that they are on the same path as the "Bride of Wildenstein" (Google her...) and on an eternal search for hormonal and surgical perfection that will ultimately end in sorrow and pain.
I understand where people are coming from. I was terrified of RLE. I was terrified that I could never do it, I could never pass and I would never be accepted. I looked for all sorts of ways to avoid the doctors and therapists. I even looked at self-medding. I tried burying my dysphoria and we all know where that leads.
Eventually I came to the realisation that I needed the doctors and that meant RLE was going to be needed. So I tried it out before going to the doctors because I could see the sense in finding out if I could cope before I had boobs or went sterile. To my surprise, RLE was horrible, but not as horrible as I thought. I did it a bit more and it got easier. My confidence soared. I was a big bloke in a wig, dress and heels and I got read every 30 seconds but no one knifed me, burned my house to the ground or sacrificed my kids on an altar. As my confidence increased I got read less and less. Physically I was the same, but mentally I had changed and people picked it up.
RLE resolved all my doubts for me and I knew I could do transition. I knew before I started hormones that no matter what they did to me things could only get better because even if they did nothing for me I could cope as I was. RLE gave me the total confidence to transition.
So that is my perspective.
What do I think of those who refuse point blank to do RLE? I think that most of them lack confidence in themselves. I think that a small number are lazy and not prepared to put work into their transition because transitioning is hard work in many ways - popping a pill looks like an easy out, but in reality it is not.I feel that they need to sort out the inside of their head before they start popping hormones because that is where transition really happens. If your head is not sorted out then your mind will stay mismatched with your body that is the very definition of what is wrong with us in the first place.
If RLE frightens you then maybe you should be considering that you are not ready to transition yet, because once you are ready nothing will stop you. Remember that transition only solves ONE problem by aligning your body and your mind more closely. All your other problems will be sitting waiting for you and they do not go away. Indeed, transition usually throws a few more on the pile to be solved.
Quote from: ConfusedHumanUK on February 17, 2014, 02:21:21 AM
Under the new protocol RLE is no longer required before HRT in the UK.
That may be what the protocol says and in fact it said it a bit earlier here in Wales than in England but that means precisely 3/5 of sweet Fanny Adams if the person writing the referral says otherwise. As I said earlier, in hindsight I don't think it was a bad thing to do 3 months before starting HRT but at one point I thought it was utterly barking.
Rosie
As we all know, or at least should know, there is a whole world of other stuff to learn and stuff to sort out with families and friends before hopefully the aesthetics from HRT will kick in. Waking up tomorrow morning in a female body will not make me a woman. In the UK, for me, it would have been nice to have started HRT when I started RLE. This would have been a far more complete diagnostic in my opinion, but like I have said in another post, there were other things to do and learn. And when you look as rough as a badgers bum, you learn to adapt pretty quickly to certain situations and then refine what you have got. However, I would not let anyone near me with a scalpel until I was sure what I wanted out of this whole transition malarkey. Now, thanks to RLE, I am sure of what I want.
So, for me RLE begins with HRT at the same time, but no gender based surgical procedures before RLE.
Nikki
Quote from: H, H, H, Honeypot! on February 17, 2014, 12:11:07 PM
........ but at one point I thought it was utterly barking.
Rosie
If you go by your profile avatar doofer thingy it says you still are ;D
Quote from: mind is quiet now on February 16, 2014, 05:24:54 PM
Me i think it is one of the best things you can do for yourself. To get out and live as you 24/7. It also gives you the time to get your name changed and other paperwork changed over to your new gender.
RLT is not really a test, it is really you just starting you new gender role before GCS.
This is the way I see it; I welcome RLE. My name change should be done sometime in July; I am currently on a full transitioning dose of hormones and I am using this time to explore life and practice and gain experience in what will shortly be my new full time mode. I still am forced to go to work in boy mode but I spend most weekends and some weeknights in girl mode. I push myself to go into uncomfortable situations in girl mode (uncomfortable, not unsafe) to force myself to learn to cope with them. Being out and about in public is a prime example; and learning how to deal with (or blow off) any dimwits that feel compelled to gawk or laugh or make inappropriate comments is important. Waiting until the day I've changed everything to learn this stuff just seems dumb to me.
I do have a disagreement with the requirement for RLE before hormones are given as is done sometimes. That just seems like gatekeeping to me.
The problem I have with the whole RLE test is that not everyone who needs SRS also needs to live as a woman. Some people are happy with their role as a male, but need a female body to feel comfortable with their body.
The two are separate in a lot of people's minds.
It is possible to live as a male with a female bottom perfectly well. Ask the hundreds of non-op FTMs on this site.
The RLE test relies on the outdated assumption that everyone who transitions physically must transition socially as well.
I don't get that. I mean the opposite certainly isn't true? The medical community has no problem with all the thousands of non-op women, why should they have problems with post-ops living as men?
Plus, I think ANY artificial requirement for gender surgery is patronizing.
What are the terms of rle? I didn't have to wait for hormones, i was told 6 months until i would be applicable. But it only took 2 weeks :P, i have no regrets and i was already living as a woman for years beforehand. I believe it's a waste because who needs 3 words to be yourself, and i have noticed most of the transpeople are reclusive. :'(
Quote from: suzifrommd on February 17, 2014, 01:00:22 PM
The RLE test relies on the outdated assumption that everyone who transitions physically must transition socially as well.
When you are treated socially in a way at variance with your physical appearance, most of us regard it as misgendering. It upsets enough people that we went to the trouble of coining a word to describe it. Most of us find it enormously upsetting. Some may not but I would suggest that they are a minority.
Quote from: suzifrommd on February 17, 2014, 01:00:22 PM
The problem I have with the whole RLE test is that not everyone who needs SRS also needs to live as a woman. Some people are happy with their role as a male, but need a female body to feel comfortable with their body.
Plus, I think ANY artificial requirement for gender surgery is patronizing.
I think some people are unwilling to face the reality of being atransexual, the rle is a very good idea indeed with attitudes such as this.
Quote from: jebee on February 17, 2014, 09:32:07 AM
Life is dangerous. You are going to get abuse, no way will you be able to pass at first, if you cant put yourself through that then like i said this might not be for you.
I've spent my entire life dealing with religious oppression, and defending myself based on my personal beliefs. I am quite aware of how "dangerous" life can be.
And let me just educate you a little...I was born female. "this might not be for you" doesn't cut it. This isn't a fashion statement, or an attitude, or a lifestyle. This is my gender, and my life. It's not a choice, it's the path that I must follow to become a whole person and have a chance to live the life that I was meant to live. I didn't choose to be this way, so if it's "not for me" then WTF am I supposed to do, jump in front of a bus?? I think not. >:(
You want to attract unnecessary attention to yourself and become a statistic, more power to you. I myself, and many others I am sure, would rather transition smoothly, and gracefully, and look as "natural" as possible.
Quote from: TaoRaven on February 17, 2014, 02:25:04 PM
I've spent my entire life dealing with religious oppression, and defending myself based on my personal beliefs. I am quite aware of how "dangerous" life can be.
And let me just educate you a little...I was born female. "this might not be for you" doesn't cut it. This isn't a fashion statement, or an attitude, or a lifestyle. This is my gender, and my life. It's not a choice, it's the path that I must follow to become a whole person and have a chance to live the life that I was meant to live. I didn't choose to be this way, so if it's "not for me" then WTF am I supposed to do, jump in front of a bus?? I think not. >:(
You want to attract unnecessary attention to yourself and become a statistic, more power to you. I myself, and many others I am sure, would rather transition smoothly, and gracefully, and look as "natural" as possible.
its just not going to happen that way, you cant suddenly go from male to female without anyone noticing. Even with surgery you will still get the odd person notice and give you abuse. You will not pass at first as it takes practice. I've been through this. You will lose friends and family etc, but hay <not allowed> em..
im not being nasty im being honest, you going to get abuse and lots of it, so grow a thick skin.
As an added tidbit someome asked about name change in the US: It varies by state, but typically requires a court appearance to swear you aren't doing it for nefarious purposes, and public disclosure through publishing in a newspaper.
Quote from: jebee on February 17, 2014, 02:46:10 PM
its just not going to happen that way, you cant suddenly go from male to female without anyone noticing. Even with surgery you will still get the odd person notice and give you abuse. You will not pass at first as it takes practice. I've been through this. You will lose friends and family etc, but hay <not allowed> em..
im not being nasty im being honest, you going to get abuse and lots of it, so grow a thick skin.
I didn't get any real abuse from anyone outside of a few comments made by people I knew and they have since changed their tune. Having a crap attitude will attract it like flies to honey though.
Quote from: petunia on February 17, 2014, 02:54:55 PM
I didn't get any real abuse from anyone outside of a few comments made by people I knew and they have since changed their tune. Having a crap attitude will attract it like flies to honey though.
depends were you live really!! round here they will bash your head in for a few pounds.
Quote from: jebee on February 17, 2014, 02:46:10 PM
its just not going to happen that way, you cant suddenly go from male to female without anyone noticing. Even with surgery you will still get the odd person notice and give you abuse. You will not pass at first as it takes practice. I've been through this. You will lose friends and family etc, but hay <not allowed> em..
im not being nasty im being honest, you going to get abuse and lots of it, so grow a thick skin.
Actually, you can transition quite smoothly and attract very little attention. I, and many others on this site, are doing it right now. Once in a while someone might look at me kinda funny, but other than that, since I'm not "in their face" about things, there are no incidents of "abuse". You reap what you sow.
I have lost NO friends, and NO family...even though I came out to everyone (including my entire district at work)....so I guess that just proves once again that this process is different for everyone, and that it doesn't have to be a traumatizing experience.
I think maybe you're projecting your own unfortunate experiences and attitude onto others here. Not being nasty...just being honest ;)
Back on subject. There is no point in forcing people to endanger themselves needlessly (See: https://www.facebook.com/TransMSVTracker , Transgender Violence Tracking Project) for some "RLE", when the "real life" part will come naturally anyway as a result of the transition process. When the butterfly is ready, the cocoon will open.
it must be much nicer where you live, ive just been to the shop, there were some chavs out side, if they notced i was a transexaul, the chaces of me geting my head kicked in were very high indeed.
There's a lot of thoughtful replies on here, things I hadn't considered and lots to think about. But, I still very much stand by the stark statement below:
I'm scratching my head a little and wondering how on earth the life of a pre-anything transexual women can be anything like a cis-women? As there are few similarities (as society will not recognise your femininity), the very concept of "trying your target gender out" in the real-world, is rendered completely pointless. As your experience will not bare much resemblance to what a cis-woman or passing transexual might have.
Ultimately, I think that RLTs are seriously flawed concepts, and are very dangerous to the individual and potentially damaging to the movement as a whole.
I wholeheartedly believe in checkpoints, rigorous analysis and gate-keeping in order to guard against people making mistakes, not taking responsibility and then sueing the medical establishment to cover their tracks. Transition and gender exploration are complex, they take time, they need time and they need logical rational steps to be taken to ensure that as much careful thought, planning and personal insight has been poured into the decisions and action, as possible.
However, RLT and RLEs are not the right way of going about enforcing gate-keeping in order to promote responsibility. Gate-keeping should involve continuous assessment in a safe environment (hospital, clinic, at home etc) at every step of the process. So that the patient can explore what they feel they want and need to do, without being put under highly stressful conditions.
~ ~ ~
A non-passing, pre HRT transwoman is potentially going to lose their job and counter nothing but abuse in a RLT. This negative experience may simply force them back into the closet, or (at best) simply make them live through an awful time.
As for using RLT to try to get potential trans* patients to realise the gravity of their requests - instead of the RLT, potential patients for GRS or hormones should undertake psychiatric tests and signed legal papers stating "I am of sound mind, and I understand the consequences of my actions. I have been fully informed of the potential effects of my actions and on this basis, I take full responsibility as an adult over the age of 18." This would be the same sort of declaration you have to sign when writing a will. Your not expected to take a death RLT test in order to test whether you really want to give your money to that person or not.
RLTs are simply an easy way for state-funded medical establishments to reduce the amount of people claiming treatment. Which is why if you go private, there are no RLTs'. Its simply about reducing costs. Its not about care.
~ ~ ~
Plus I don't like being treated like a little kiddy. I've had a psych evaluation - I'm perfectly sane. And, as I've discussed at length with the NHS, I understand the conequences. If I get this wrong after all this, then its my own fault. This is adult responsibility.
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 17, 2014, 03:54:27 PM
There's a lot of thoughtful replies on here, things I hadn't considered and lots to think about. But, I still very much stand by the stark statement below:
I'm scratching my head a little and wondering how on earth the life of a pre-anything transexual women can be anything like a cis-women? As there are few similarities (as society will not recognise your femininity), the very concept of "trying your target gender out" in the real-world, is rendered completely pointless. As your experience will not bare much resemblance to what a cis-woman or passing transexual might have.
Ultimately, I think that RLTs are seriously flawed concepts, and are very dangerous to the individual and potentially damaging to the movement as a whole.
I wholeheartedly believe in checkpoints, rigorous analysis and gate-keeping in order to guard against people making mistakes, not taking responsibility and then sueing the medical establishment to cover their tracks. Transition and gender exploration are complex, they take time, they need time and they need logical rational steps to be taken to ensure that as much careful thought, planning and personal insight has been poured into the decisions and action, as possible.
However, RLT and RLEs are not the right way of going about enforcing gate-keeping in order to promote responsibility. Gate-keeping should involve continuous assessment in a safe environment (hospital, clinic, at home etc) at every step of the process. So that the patient can explore what they feel they want and need to do, without being put under highly stressful conditions.
~ ~ ~
A non-passing, pre HRT transwoman is potentially going to lose their job and counter nothing but abuse in a RLT. This negative experience may simply force them back into the closet, or (at best) simply make them live through an awful time.
As for using RLT to try to get potential trans* patients to realise the gravity of their requests - instead of the RLT, potential patients for GRS or hormones should undertake psychiatric tests and signed legal papers stating "I am of sound mind, and I understand the consequences of my actions. I have been fully informed of the potential effects of my actions and on this basis, I take full responsibility as an adult over the age of 18." This would be the same sort of declaration you have to sign when writing a will. Your not expected to take a death RLT test in order to test whether you really want to give your money to that person or not.
RLTs are simply an easy way for state-funded medical establishments to reduce the amount of people claiming treatment. Which is why if you go private, there are no RLTs'. Its simply about reducing costs. Its not about care.
~ ~ ~
Plus I don't like being treated like a little kiddy. I've had a psych evaluation - I'm perfectly sane. And, as I've discussed at length with the NHS, I understand the conequences. If I get this wrong after all this, then its my own fault. This is adult responsibility.
The nhs has a legal duty of care, part of this care includes the RLE, this is set down by nice guidelines etc, working in the NHS my self i've seen things from both sides. The doctors are trying their best to help you, really they are.
From my experience i can honestly say the single most important thing about transitioning at least for me was getting FFS, it changes the way people treat you completely and utterly.
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 17, 2014, 03:54:27 PM
I'm scratching my head a little and wondering how on earth the life of a pre-anything transexual women can be anything like a cis-women?
Both myself and others I know personally have done it. I know someone who is doing it right now. She has socially transitioned and has not even bothered approaching her GP yet because her wife will not let her.
In my case I began RLE 15 months before I started hormones and my female life was firmly established at work, with friends and with family. It can be done, but it requires work. Dress appropriately, act appropriately and reduce male overtones in your voice and people become accepting. How accepting? Enough that when out I had no problems in female spaces such as toilets, locker rooms and changing areas.
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 17, 2014, 03:54:27 PMUltimately, I think that RLTs are seriously flawed concepts, and are very dangerous to the individual and potentially damaging to the movement as a whole.
I would argue the opposite, that the lack of confidence many trans people start with will be perpetuated into their new life robbing them of the self confidence needed to build a better life. I would be in favour of seeing them receive mentoring and help in starting their RLE and I have helped people myself. All some of them need is simple advice or just for you to be there beside them. Too many of us are left on our own to get on with it and it does not have to be that way.
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 17, 2014, 03:54:27 PM
A non-passing, pre HRT transwoman is potentially going to lose their job and counter nothing but abuse in a RLT. This negative experience may simply force them back into the closet, or (at best) simply make them live through an awful time.
It depends on where you are. In some parts of the USA it seems that the law prevents you from being tarred and feathered but that is about it. In the UK, the minute you ask your GP for help you get legal protection and it would be a very foolish employer that would risk firing you.
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 17, 2014, 03:54:27 PMAs for using RLT to try to get potential trans* patients to realise the gravity of their requests - instead of the RLT, potential patients for GRS or hormones should undertake psychiatric tests and signed legal papers stating "I am of sound mind, and I understand the consequences of my actions. I have been fully informed of the potential effects of my actions and on this basis, I take full responsibility as an adult over the age of 18." This would be the same sort of declaration you have to sign when writing a will. Your not expected to take a death RLT test in order to test whether you really want to give your money to that person or not.
I am sorry, but that is a legal cop-out. There are people who will sign anything regardless of consequence. Besides, you are only changing one set of gatekeepers for another by allowing someone to assess if you are legally or medically competent to understand the consequences of such a declaration. What if they say no? You will be fighting lawyers rather than doctors and if you thought transition was expensive....
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 17, 2014, 03:54:27 PM
Plus I don't like being treated like a little kiddy. I've had a psych evaluation - I'm perfectly sane. And, as I've discussed at length with the NHS, I understand the conequences. If I get this wrong after all this, then its my own fault. This is adult responsibility.
This is not about treating you as a little kiddy. This is about making sure that you do not have any other problems that might look like gender dysphoria. They cleared you of that and forwarded you on to those who can help you. You are lucky that you understand adult responsibility because there are a lot of adults out there who do not.
It's important for all the reasons. Anyone who thinks that making the decision to use body-modifying and DNA manipulating chemicals, permanently modify the most nerve-ending dense area of the human body, and/or cutting away at their face like a jigsaw puzzle without a serious test of 'is this right for me in the real world'. is either immature, entitled, delusional, or a combination of all three. This is not a game and it's not something you get the hang of in a day, a week, or even a couple of months. Hell, even a couple of years is a stretch but a little 'ol year? Really?
Anyone whining about that is just plain impatient... and probably some of those other things.
After reading all the new posts in this thread, I feel the need to post again.
I think of HRT RLE like I think of homework contributing to someone's grade. It might help a lot of people, it might really give some people the boost they need, but not everyone needs it to get by. A lot of people are instead dragged down, stressed, and curbed by it. So why not make it elective? Why not ask people what they want to do for themselves, and trust that, chances are, they know themselves better than we do? It's just not effective to make blanket decisions for everyone's lives.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on February 17, 2014, 05:11:46 PM
It's important for all the reasons. Anyone who thinks that making the decision to use body-modifying and DNA manipulating chemicals, permanently modify the most nerve-ending dense area of the human body, and/or cutting away at their face like a jigsaw puzzle without a serious test of 'is this right for me in the real world'. is either immature, entitled, delusional, or a combination of all three. This is not a game and it's not something you get the hang of in a day, a week, or even a couple of months. Hell, even a couple of years is a stretch but a little 'ol year? Really?
Anyone whining about that is just plain impatient... and probably some of those other things.
I don't think you need to insult anyone or call their character into question. The discussion is about if RLE is something that should be enforced -- as in, is it right for
everyone? The supporters of RLE in this thread only seem to be saying "everyone should be forced to do RLE because it teaches you a thing or two about if it's right for you." I think this statement is fairly fallacious not only because pre-anything RLE is such a grossly out of character socialization for post-everything and ciswoman life (for most), but because it is also in stark contrast with the idea that we cannot know someone better than they know themselves; we cannot unequivocally understand and prescribe the needs of others.
It isn't as though no one has ever gone on HRT quietly, gotten FFS, and then suddenly and favorably leapt into female shoes with happiness to spare. It happens
all the time. If that were the case -- that these successfully quiet people didn't exist -- I think it'd be okay to state RLE necessitation as though it were fact or gospel, but it simply isn't. There is substantial empirical data to the contrary of the doom and gloom spun about how someone with no RLE will be lost, confused, in for a real surprise, so on and so forth.
Quote from: Sybil on February 17, 2014, 05:19:58 PM
There is substantial empirical data to the contrary of the doom and gloom spun about how someone with no RLE will be lost, confused, in for a real surprise, so on and so forth.
You use this phrase but I don't think you mean what you think you do. If I'm incorrect, please do tell me where I can look up the relevant studies. I'm not sure that anyone can say one way or the other on this as there isn't a significant body of work regarding the trans population's outcomes. Again, I'm open to being wrong but I sincerely doubt that what we know about this is as definitive as you say and I would say that the doctors behind the SoC which determine the requirement for medically assisted RLE to be one calendar year have a good deal more knowledge in this area than lay persons.
As for the rest of your response, you can rationalize all you like but the fact is that many people start transition and then back out at some point in the process. It's true that many will try again at some point but it's also true that many will not and live happily cis lives or GQ or something else. The 1yr RLE is the breaks that keep you from doing something irreversible and fighting against the need to have a medical/mental support network be present during the care required for transition seems like people saying "I know better than the doctors." which, with exceptions being acknowledged, is actually rarely the case. One year isn't a big ask for surgical clearance and if you're progressing to SRS, unless you're very rich at the outset, you'll probably need at least that much time to prepare financially if for nothing but the time off required for recovery.
It's a safeguard there to catch those who enter transition for all the wrong reasons. They happen. It wasn't the case with me. It might not be for you. Hell, my medical staff told me flat-out that I would be getting my letters as little as a couple of months into things (and I went from zero to RLE in less than a week) but I don't begrudge caution and anyone who does, I sincerely believe, does not have the maturity to waive it, believes that the rules should not apply to them because they're 'special' (entitlement), or they've got issues beyond that. You can disagree all you want but I'll not change my stance.
Quote from: Sybil on February 17, 2014, 05:19:58 PM
It isn't as though no one has ever gone on HRT quietly, gotten FFS, and then suddenly and favorably leapt into female shoes with happiness to spare. It happens all the time. If that were the case -- that these successfully quiet people didn't exist -- I think it'd be okay to state RLE necessitation as though it were fact or gospel, but it simply isn't. There is substantial empirical data to the contrary of the doom and gloom spun about how someone with no RLE will be lost, confused, in for a real surprise, so on and so forth.
What is RLE?
It is not about turning your entire life upside down one afternoon, it is about taking the first easily reversible steps towards your new gender. My RLE started by dressing more adrogynously, wearing clear nail polish, tidying up my eyebrows and so forth. Once I got used to these I pushed a little further and started lasering my face and letting my nails grow. I chose my female name but I did not legally change it. I started attending support groups and going out them.
At any point here, if things felt wrong I could have stopped. I had no bodily changes, no surgery, no hormones, no brain rewiring, etc. However nothing felt wrong so I took more steps. I came "out" to people because I was becoming increasingly confident. I told people i felt I could trust - particularly women - and many of them took me under their wing. I was getting socialised. So I changed my name legally and came out to more people.
A gradual process, not an explosion. A gentle introduction to my new gender. It was slow, gradual and gave both me and those I know time to adjust. When I saw the doctors they still examined me but after two consultations I was put straight on to hormones.
Was this the "nightmarish hell" that people rail against? Was this the soul-rending agony that destroys trans-people? Like anything else, RLE can be done in a way that works or a way that causes problems. Too many people seem to think that transition is a race that needs to be done as fast as possible. From my experience within a large support group I would say that those who rush their transitions have worse outcomes than those who take it more slowly. No matter how fast you want to go, your body goes at its own speed and anyone expecting to do this in less than about 3 years is likely to have a lot of disappointment.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on February 17, 2014, 05:35:33 PMYou use this phrase but I don't think you mean what you think you do. If I'm incorrect, please do tell me where I can look up the relevant studies.
Empirical data can be given by people who have done it; i.e. data via experience. It is not always done via strictly observed science, which would be experimentation .. in fact, in a field like this one, I would say that the scientific approach would be to reap the experiences of people who have done it. Do I have a formal list on hand so that I can refute your particular request? No, of course not, but there are people who post here often supporting this reality; you can find them all over the internet. Could they all be liars? Absolutely. Are they probably or even mostly all liars? Absolutely not. Even more so than people who have never gone out in women's clothing, there are tons of part timers (as in [potentially] not out at work, not out to family, not out to friends, etc. -- and so not RLE) who have posted about doing this.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on February 17, 2014, 05:35:33 PM
As for the rest of your response, you can rationalize all you like but the fact is that many people start transition and then back out at some point in the process.
The counterargument for this one is simple. You're right, there could be people who realize, after RLE, that the life they're looking for is not for them. They live happy cis lives afterwards.
The inverse, however, is that someone who is not cis tries RLE. They have a terrible experience and become too afraid to try anything else, or simply don't have access to try something else due to RLE. They live miserable, depressed faux-cis lives until they die -- or worse, they cannot find happiness and kill themselves. Does that mean it wasn't right for them? No, it just means they weren't given a full chance to find out what was right for them, because other people decided it wasn't worth the risk.
Quote from: provizora on February 17, 2014, 05:40:44 PM
Was this the "nightmarish hell" that people rail against? Was this the soul-rending agony that destroys trans-people? Like anything else, RLE can be done in a way that works or a way that causes problems. Too many people seem to think that transition is a race that needs to be done as fast as possible. From my experience within a large support group I would say that those who rush their transitions have worse outcomes than those who take it more slowly. No matter how fast you want to go, your body goes at its own speed and anyone expecting to do this in less than about 3 years is likely to have a lot of disappointment.
I really cannot reiterate this enough: what works for one person does not necessarily work for others. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying RLE
never works. It works great for some people and I, personally, am phenomenally happy for those people. That is seriously wonderful for them. It does not work for everyone, though, and not every person who it fails for is someone who just doesn't belong.
My main argument is that people should be left to make their own life decisions because it's their life. The more rules and regulations we put in place, the more people we damage along the ones we safeguard.
Ugh, this was originally an edit; I meant to edit one of my previous posts so I wouldn't triple post with the tidbit below. Oh well. I'm sorry.
Victoria, I'm not certain what you're talking about regarding RLE now. You seem focused on GRS and the 1 year standard, which I personally agree with (for the most part) for RLE, but earlier you mentioned "chemicals", which I would assume means HRT. I am only against HRT RLE and that is what I'm arguing. What are you arguing?
Quote from: Sybil on February 17, 2014, 05:55:42 PM
I really cannot reiterate this enough: what works for one person does not necessarily work for others.
Indeed. Just because going straight to hormones or surgery worked for you does not mean it works for others either. I can point at people on this very forum who have tried your method and it is tearing them apart. I can link to historical posts on this forum of people who were utterly confident, had surgery done and then came on here posting that they had just made the biggest mistake of their lives.
No system is perfect. What the medics have come up with is an approach that causes less damage to less people than any other method tried so far. There is no perfect system. There never will be.
Quote from: provizora on February 17, 2014, 06:01:47 PM
Indeed. Just because going straight to hormones or surgery worked for you does not mean it works for others either. I can point at people on this very forum who have tried your method and it is tearing them apart. I can link to historical posts on this forum of people who were utterly confident, had surgery done and then came on here posting that they had just made the biggest mistake of their lives.
No system is perfect. What the medics have come up with is an approach that causes less damage to less people than any other method tried so far.
You're putting hormones and surgery RLE together. That is not what is being argued. I think hardly anyone is arguing surgery RLE, which is the only thing I ever see regret for.
Also, on HRT RLE, I would disagree and argue that there are tons of people who never try for HRT because they're too terrified to try RLE. How do you count those? How do you know you're following the safest method when you never hear from those people?
Quote from: Sybil on February 17, 2014, 06:05:23 PM
You're putting hormones and surgery RLE together.
That is the sequence. RLE -> Hormones -> Surgery. It becomes increasingly more difficult to stop if you decide you have made a mistake
Quote from: Sybil on February 17, 2014, 06:05:23 PMAlso, on HRT RLE, I would disagree and argue that there are tons of people who never try for HRT because they're too terrified to try RLE. How do you count those? How do you know you're following the safest method when you never hear from those people?
I never said it was the safest method, just the one that, to date, is deemed to do less damage to less people.
Initially I took the same position as yourself - that I wanted to avoid RLE. Basically I wanted to be given the drugs without being asked any awkward questions by medics in case they decided that I was not trans. The thought of that failure terrified me.
I would have argued that black was white to avoid medics, RLE and just give me the drugs because I did not believe that anyone would believe me. I suspect that many people here arguing vehemently against RLE are hoping to skip it because they are not convinced that the medics will believe them.
Quote from: provizora on February 17, 2014, 06:21:19 PM
That is the sequence. RLE -> Hormones -> Surgery. It becomes increasingly more difficult to stop if you decide you have made a mistake
I never said it was the safest method, just the one that, to date, is deemed to do less damage to less people.
Initially I took the same position as yourself - that I wanted to avoid RLE. Basically I wanted to be given the drugs without being asked any awkward questions by medics in case they decided that I was not trans. The thought of that failure terrified me.
I would have argued that black was white to avoid medics, RLE and just give me the drugs because I did not believe that anyone would believe me. I suspect that many people here arguing vehemently against RLE are hoping to skip it because they are not convinced that the medics will believe them.
Sorry, I hope I'm not difficult to interpret; your comment about the sequence didn't really address my comment. I understand the sequence, but I'm only arguing against RLE for HRT. You can have HRT without RLE as well as GRS with RLE.
Also, please do not assume that because I am arguing for this, I'm a subject of what the argument is. I'm not. I'm out to every single person I know and have no issue with strangers. I'm arguing this because I think freedom of body is a basic human right, and I strongly dislike the idea of policing what people do with their bodies just because it's a mistake for a decidedly smaller portion of them.
Edit: I typed my first sentence strangely. I had to fix it!
Quote from: provizora on February 17, 2014, 06:21:19 PM
That is the sequence. RLE -> Hormones -> Surgery. It becomes increasingly more difficult to stop if you decide you have made a mistake
Umm, what? More like Hormones -> RLE -> Surgery..
Requiring RLE before hormones is a cruel and unusual punishment for most - and WPATH haven't required it since the 80's.
Personally, I don't understand why people get so upset by the Surgical RLE requirement - there's also a requirement for 12 months HRT, would it really be that hard to combine all or part of the 2?
I don't think anyone is arguing for a RLE requirement before HRT. That would be insane. The only reason I brought it up is because, to my knowledge, HRT is a requirement for RLE surgical requirement. I don't know any other reason for RLE besides surgery so I'm not sure what you're arguing against Sybil.
Quote from: Sybil on February 17, 2014, 06:29:30 PM
Sorry, I hope I'm not difficult to interpret; your comment about the sequence didn't really answer my question.
OK...
"You're putting hormones and surgery RLE together. That is not what is being argued. " At present the sequence is RLE -> Hormones -> Surgery so of course I am putting hormones and surgery together since at present you have to do RLE to get to either of them.
"Also, on HRT RLE, I would disagree and argue that there are tons of people who never try for HRT because they're too terrified to try RLE. How do you count those? How do you know you're following the safest method when you never hear from those people?"I do not know and nor does anyone else. There may be no one being missed. Since there seems to be no data how can anyone know? As I said, no system is perfect and no system ever will be perfect. People will always be missed.
Quote from: Sybil on February 17, 2014, 06:29:30 PMAlso, please do not assume that because I am arguing for this, I'm a subject of what the argument is. I'm not. I'm out to every single person I know and have no issue with strangers.
I mentioned my experience of how I viewed RLE. I started by stating that I initially held the same viewpoint as the one you advocate and I then explained my reasons for holding that viewpoint. My reasons. Not yours. Perhaps I should have worded it to make that distinction clearer.
Quote from: Sybil on February 17, 2014, 06:29:30 PMI'm arguing this because I think freedom of body is a basic human right, and I strongly dislike the idea of policing what people do with their bodies just because it's a mistake for a decidedly smaller portion of them.
I am happy for people to be free to do what they wish with their bodies, but you cannot expect medical professionals to be complicit with indulging some people's whims. The line has to be drawn somewhere because not everyone is a clear-headed rational person. Legal disclaimers only go so far. Putting up a legal disclaimer did not save Armin Meiwes from going to jail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes People sometimes do not act in their own best interest.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on February 17, 2014, 06:50:02 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing for a RLE requirement before HRT. That would be insane. The only reason I brought it up is because, to my knowledge, HRT is a requirement for RLE surgical requirement. I don't know any other reason for RLE besides surgery so I'm not sure what you're arguing against Sybil.
HRT RLE is a requirement in some countries. I'm arguing against that; RLE for HRT. You also mentioned chemical alterations in one of your posts, as I outlined above, so that's what I had to go on. I thought you were arguing for HRT RLE.
Quote from: provizora on February 17, 2014, 06:59:33 PM
OK...
"You're putting hormones and surgery RLE together. That is not what is being argued. "
At present the sequence is RLE -> Hormones -> Surgery so of course I am putting hormones and surgery together since at present you have to do RLE to get to either of them.
You don't have to do both everywhere. e.g. the US does not require RLE for HRT. Some other places do. I do not support where it is a requirement for HRT. I stated that multiple times throughout the thread in hopes that it wouldn't be misinterpreted. As an example, the third post in this thread, which is mine, makes a very fine distinction of the two.
Quote from: provizora on February 17, 2014, 06:59:33 PM
I do not know and nor does anyone else. There may be no one being missed. Since there seems to be no data how can anyone know? As I said, no system is perfect and no system ever will be perfect. People will always be missed.
Sure, it's possible no one is missed at all, but the odds for that have got to be astronomical given obvious reasons. I'm not arguing that no system is perfect; I'm arguing against the current system that exists in some places and think the alternative is superior.
Quote from: provizora on February 17, 2014, 06:59:33 PM
I mentioned my experience of how I viewed RLE. I started by stating that I initially held the same viewpoint as the one you advocate and I then explained my reasons for holding that viewpoint. My reasons. Not yours. Perhaps I should have worded it to make that distinction clearer.
"Indeed. Just because going straight to hormones or surgery worked for you does not mean it works for others either. I can point at people on this very forum who have tried your method and it is tearing them apart."
"Initially I took the same position as yourself - that I wanted to avoid RLE."
These statements indicate projection to me. If not, I'm sorry, but that's how I read it. I didn't hold it against you in any way.
Quote from: provizora on February 17, 2014, 06:59:33 PM
I am happy for people to be free to do what they wish with their bodies, but you cannot expect medical professionals to be complicit with indulging some people's whims. The line has to be drawn somewhere because not everyone is a clear-headed rational person. Legal disclaimers only go so far. Putting up a legal disclaimer did not save Armin Meiwes from going to jail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes People sometimes do not act in their own best interest.
I agree, but I view the examples where medical professionals must delegate with excess caution as extremes. I absolutely would not draw that line at HRT, I think it's grossly inappropriate and a blatant infringement on human rights.
Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on February 17, 2014, 06:42:33 PM
Requiring RLE before hormones is a cruel and unusual punishment for most - and WPATH haven't required it since the 80's.
hormones dont change all that much, HRT will not make you pass. Things are they way they are for goods reasons.
Quote from: jebee on February 17, 2014, 07:24:51 PM
hormones dont change all that much, HRT will not make you pass. Things are they way they are for goods reasons.
Never said they did.
I did no RLE before I started hormones.. And would never have started if I was forced to. And my reasons have nothing to do with physical changes. As a confused, T-powered person, I simply lacked the confidence required to present to the world as myself. Hormones gave me a better sense of self, which then helped with the confidence.
EDIT: The peak international body for the treatment of trans people, WPATH, hasn't thought RLE before hormones was a good idea for quite some time.
Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on February 17, 2014, 07:51:21 PM
Never said they did.
I did no RLE before I started hormones.. And would never have started if I was forced to. And my reasons have nothing to do with physical changes. As a confused, T-powered person, I simply lacked the confidence required to present to the world as myself. Hormones gave me a better sense of self, which then helped with the confidence.
EDIT: The peak international body for the treatment of trans people, WPATH, hasn't thought RLE before hormones was a good idea for quite some time.
For me rle was part of my life, i spent most my teens dressed as a woman any way.. remember getting grief at school for wearing nail varnish so maybe things are a bit different for me.
I am so grateful Australia has advanced beyond this archaic notion of inflicting mental abuse on patents before you can seek treatment. At one point, before I purchased my home here and began working on my University degrees (completed the first 5 year one last week \0/). I was going to move back to the UK as I have a large family there. However, upon reflection of the medical system, I was appalled and decided to remain in Australia indefinitely as the laws and social policy changes here have been in place to protect our community for years.
Indeed, the mere fact that I will be able to see a specialist in a few months and gain their professional assistance is astonishing. In fact, I will be able to utilise a set of pharmaceutical to rectify a biological issue I have lived with for 30 years, without being forced into a psychology harmful position, where I will be not only disempowered but also victimised is outstanding.
Conversely, do I think being required to live on HRT for 12+ months before gaining GRS is bad? No. It is a smart move as it allows the individual to adapt, grow and feel prepared both mentally and physically before facing a major surgery.
In terms of other cultures and the way they approach this, I am not so ethnocentric as to presume to know or understand their approach, although it does not mean I must agree with it.
SIDE NOTE:
As many people who know from my story I shared, I lived 99% of my teens as a girl, due to my smaller frame from 14-23 years of age. Indeed, it was not an issue as I appeared female then, but to ask me to do that now before I can gain medical assistance to transition (not srs that is not what I am referring too) is unforgivable as I am a 35 year old single parent, overweight (slowly dropping it) with a 5 o'clock shadow in a rural community with huge burly men who shear sheep, chop down trees and could wrestle bears with a single hand!
Furthermore, there is no clinic here, laser or support networks, and I would not inflict that kind of social abuse on my two 7 & 9 year old kids. Dear god could you imagine if I walked down the street with my stubble, and wig (look at my photo eww!). Yet once I get approved for HRT, I can visit a city once a month to get electrolysis/laser, while I grow out my hair.
Thank (insert supreme power of choice here) for Informed Consent. Some of us just want to get this over with and get on with our lives. And we are doing exactly that, regardless of what gatekeeping systems some people think should be imposed on others.
I know people who regret tattoos....who regret getting married...regret having children...or having their tongue forked, or spending thousands on a dead-end education. Would you impose a gatekeeping system on these people as well?? Does everyone need to be protected from themselves? If not, why the special treatment for those of us who simply want to correct our defect and live a normal life??
Again...so very glad that these outmoded "Standards of care" are fading away...that compassion, logic and reason are taking over in their place.
I don't think it's a terrible idea. I lived full time for over a year before I even considered hormones
Quote from: Sarah leah on February 17, 2014, 08:47:05 PM
I am so grateful Australia has advanced beyond this archaic notion of inflicting mental abuse on patents before you can seek treatment. At one point, before I purchased my home here and began working on my University degrees (completed the first 5 year one last week \0/). I was going to move back to the UK as I have a large family there. However, upon reflection of the medical system, I was appalled and decided to remain in Australia indefinitely as the laws and social policy changes here have been in place to protect our community for years. Indeed, the mere fact that I will be able to see a specialist in a few months and gain their professional assistance is astonishing. In fact, I will be able to utilise a set of pharmaceutical to rectify a biological issue I have lived with for 30 years, without being forced in a psychology harmful position, where I will be not only disempowered but also victimised is outstanding.
Conversely, do I think being required to live on HRT for 12+ months before gaining GRS is bad? No. It is a smart move as it allows the individual to adapt, grow and feel prepared both mentally and physically before facing a major surgery.
In terms of other cultures and the way they approach this, I am not so ethnocentric as to presume to know or understand their approach, although it does not mean I must agree with it.
Yeah, being trans in Australia is a reasonbly painless existence..
Quote from: The Post-Trans-Rebel. on February 17, 2014, 08:58:41 PM
Yeah, being trans in Australia is a reasonbly painless existence..
the US isn't too bad either
The good old nhs gave me free laser treatment :)
Quote from: Sarah leah on February 17, 2014, 08:47:05 PM
I am so grateful Australia has advanced beyond this archaic notion of inflicting mental abuse on patents before you can seek treatment.
...
without being forced into a psychology harmful position, where I will be not only disempowered but also victimised is outstanding.
It is strange to read that as someone who had to do the whole RLE before HRT thing. I certainly felt that way WAY back near the start of things and would quite happily rant, rave and generally whinge to anyone who would listen about how unfair, damaging and abusive the practice was.
After a while I accepted that it was what needed to be done and got on with working out how I was going to do it without being placed in the stocks for all to jeer and throw rotten fruit at. Consequently, even a 1.83m tall with broad shoulders, small hips, a large nose, long face and chunky chin I pass, or at least I pass well enough that I am accepted as a woman. Having to do the RLE not only taught me the skills I needed to learn but also the self-confidence I need. I have read posting on other threads where people are 9-12 months into HRT and are STILL dealing with issues I had to cope with before I ever took any pills. Issues that are causing them real anguish and blocking their progress.
I started off convinced that RLE before HRT was inhumane, now I am not so sure. That said, I do agree with Kelly that getting the vile testosterone poison out of my system has given me space to actually THINK for a change.
Rosie
It has been interesting to read all of these different viewpoints.
Personally, I think RLE has been a really good time for me. Yes, I get stressed out when I need to do something for the first time, but, in general, it has been excellent. I haven't faced any overt discrimination and I seem to pass fairly fine. With that in mind, I cannot say how my experience would have been different if I had been forced by someone in the medical community to go full time before I was ready.
When I decided to go full time, it was for me alone. I just couldn't face another day living as a man and I felt ready. I had been on HRT for 3 months already, my facial hair was mostly under control and I was frequently being called Ms and lady etc while dressed in men's clothing. When I did finally tell my office, no one was surprised and my transition into full time went smoothly. It is hard to say, but I don't think it would have been so easy and comfortable if I had been forced to go full time prior to starting HRT. 3 months on hormones really isn't a lot, but it did soften my features a little, make shaving my legs possible and it did give me the sense of calm and confidence that I needed to take the next step. That last part, for me at least, was very important and I think that without that my RLE would have been a total disaster.
Anyhow, I think my biggest problem with the whole concept of RLE is not so much it being a requirement for GRS (it is not a requirement for HRT where I live), but the fact that it gives power to the authorities to define what being a woman means, if that makes sense. Perhaps it is the result of being raised by ardent feminists and having several butch lesbians in my family, but I don't really think that it is appropriate for my (cismale) doctor or the other people on preoperative commission to be able to say what does and does not qualify as adapting to my new gender role. Personally, I like "girly" things like makeup, jewelry, dresses, etc. I also enjoy cooking and chatting and don't even mind doing the cleaning up :) However, there are many, many ciswomen that don't like these things. The sexual revolution gave ciswomen the ability to define femininity for themselves, and I feel a bit like the RLE requirement robs transwomen of this.
I think it depends on the person or place. I mean, I was living full-time (with the exception of the workplace) for about 2 months before I was able to get my letter, but not because I was forced to ~ though with the therapist and endo I had, they didn't require i have ANY RLE before starting HRT, which i honestly found shockingly surprising. I think in certain locations and situations it would be somewhat unfair though... like lets say for example "The Rock" decides to transition and they make him go through RLE..... it would be painful (assuming they would not be ready for such a change)
But then again i have noticed that while my appearance in public is somewhat andro or confusing (some people look twice and others don't even notice) the more positive my attitude is, the more I seem to blend in ~ of course this could just be a result of me not caring as much when im in a positive attitude as opposed to having a negative attitude where I notice every single person who walks past me ~ So in the end there are a bunch of different factors in terms of whether or not RLE is a good idea or a bad idea. I personally am glad I started doing it pre-hrt (presenting as male was too much for me to handle emotionally, even wearing male clothes was a massive trigger) At least this way I could feel and be treated the way I should by people, early on, so that it only gets easier as i start my transition through HRT.
But i feel its sometimes unfair because a lot of the times there will be people who don't pass well (in a general sense, not in my personal opinion) and they wont get a full effect of how it feels to be a "woman" because people won't treat them as such.. but of course this also depends on where you live and how the people are in your area. For me (for example) I get mixed responses, but every now and then i'll run into that person that despite seeing my female presentation, and my boobs, and my purse, and my makeup... will refer to me as sir.
I remember one time I went to Miami Beach with my friends (mind you, miami beach is probably the 2nd most open minded area of South Florida) and I go into a bar, i was dressed the way I am in my avatar... after seeing my ID, they tell me "go ahead sir"... i was so upset because i feel like yelling "if i wanted to be called SIR i would DRESS as such!"... but then again I think that was mostly due to the fact that my ID is from when I was 18 and very male looking (i dont want to change my ID until i change my name or until my appearance is a little more feminine, seeing as they wont allow me to wear a wig in the DMV)
But personally, had I been forced to do RLE, i wouldv'e been hesitant, so i consider myself a little bit fortunate that I was able to do it for myself earlier on, and have my psych and endo tell me "oh, well its good that you've at least experienced what its like to live that way".
just a question. Is there some kind of mandatory dress code to accomplish the year task or is it some other kind of definition involved. Can female brand blue jeans and top work or does it have to be so many days in a formal dress or a certain day in skirts. I'm just curious as to what is required as suitability in the cloths department or does it matter.
If a cis woman would likely dress as you are, it counts. At least it should. personally, I haven't changed what I wear since I could choose my own clothes.
Going the other way may make a huge difference in this answer.
I'm still very much against the notion of a RLE requirement for anything transition-related. For HRT, I'm completely 100% against it. It should really just work on informed consent. Not everyone who wants to alleviate their bodies of their birth-sex hormones wants to transition fully. I know many bigender people and genderqueer people who have no intention of going full-time female, but their dysphoria is eased with HRT, so they should have access to it. HRT is not a big deal. Most people will know whether it's right for them or not long before any permanent damage has been done. So IMO informed consent is more than enough for this. If a person is of sound mind to make a judgment for themselves that HRT is right, and a professional can verify that their reasons are justified, they should be able to get it without waiting around forever, and certainly without needing to be a binary MtF who goes full-time before even starting it.
I'm biased about this because I started HRT completely on my own initiative, and it was the thing that honestly verified for me that transition was right, and I would NEVER go back to the way things were, while the social experience of being female publicly has done nothing but scare the s*** out of me thus far. It's taken a body that's more or less completely female after 13 months of HRT before I've gotten even remotely comfortable going out in "girl mode." Plain and simple, I could NOT have done it if there was a RLE requirement before HRT. I would have been too afraid. And so I probably would have been stuck with a body that I hated my entire life, because I would have been too scared to do the RLE required to get on HRT with my huge masculine balding pre-transition body. And I'm sure there's a lot of trans-girls who feel the same way.
SRS, I'm totally fine with there being gatekeeping. That is something where regrets do happen, and it is a major life-changing surgery that will have the person incapacitated for weeks if not months. So being absolutely sure that someone is ready for it definitely is a good idea. But I disagree that RLE should be the requirement. Currently, the requirement for orchiectomy is one year on HRT and two letters from psychologists. Why is this enough for castration, but not for SRS? Aren't they ultimately the same result in terms of permanence and functionality? The only difference is that one changes the appearance as well. It's my opinion that once someone has been on hormones for a year, just as they're eligible for orchiectomy, they should be eligible for SRS also, regardless of transition status. Because by that point, they've already felt many permanent effects from HRT, and therefore they should have a very clear idea of whether the changes are right for them or not. And at that point, it should be blatantly obvious whether they're a good candidate for SRS or not.
Again, I know I'm being biased, because I really don't think that it's fair that I'm stuck waiting in limbo land, being forced to put up with anatomy that I hate with no end in sight, just because I'm socially anxious and I want to make sure that I'm going to be accepted as female before making the social switch. And I'm not even going to be eligible for this surgery that I've known that I wanted since I was 13 years old, until after a YEAR of living as a woman with a penis. That just seems unfair to me, especially since the rest of my body is basically already completely female.
Again, I think HRT is way more inclusive. Because having been a member of the eunuch community, and therefore knowing many male-identifying people who would love to have genital surgeries available to them, I feel like having been on anti-androgens for a year, and therefore knowing exactly what physical effects you're getting yourself into, plus having psychological counseling that reaffirms that you're making an informed decision, should be enough. Where RLE as a requirement basically limits these things that would help many people, to binary-identifying classic Harry Benjamin transsexuals only.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on February 18, 2014, 07:25:07 PM
I'm still very much against the notion of a RLE requirement for anything transition-related. For HRT, I'm completely 100% against it. It should really just work on informed consent. Not everyone who wants to alleviate their bodies of their birth-sex hormones wants to transition fully. I know many bigender people and genderqueer people who have no intention of going full-time female, but their dysphoria is eased with HRT, so they should have access to it. HRT is not a big deal. Most people will know whether it's right for them or not long before any permanent damage has been done. So IMO informed consent is more than enough for this. If a person is of sound mind to make a judgment for themselves that HRT is right, and a professional can verify that their reasons are justified, they should be able to get it without waiting around forever, and certainly without needing to be a binary MtF who goes full-time before even starting it.
I'm biased about this because I started HRT completely on my own initiative, and it was the thing that honestly verified for me that transition was right, and I would NEVER go back to the way things were, while the social experience of being female publicly has done nothing but scare the s*** out of me thus far. It's taken a body that's more or less completely female after 13 months of HRT before I've gotten even remotely comfortable going out in "girl mode." Plain and simple, I could NOT have done it if there was a RLE requirement before HRT. I would have been too afraid. And so I probably would have been stuck with a body that I hated my entire life, because I would have been too scared to do the RLE required to get on HRT with my huge masculine balding pre-transition body. And I'm sure there's a lot of trans-girls who feel the same way.
SRS, I'm totally fine with there being gatekeeping. That is something where regrets do happen, and it is a major life-changing surgery that will have the person incapacitated for weeks if not months. So being absolutely sure that someone is ready for it definitely is a good idea. But I disagree that RLE should be the requirement. Currently, the requirement for orchiectomy is one year on HRT and two letters from psychologists. Why is this enough for castration, but not for SRS? Aren't they ultimately the same result in terms of permanence and functionality? The only difference is that one changes the appearance as well. It's my opinion that once someone has been on hormones for a year, just as they're eligible for orchiectomy, they should be eligible for SRS also, regardless of transition status. Because by that point, they've already felt many permanent effects from HRT, and therefore they should have a very clear idea of whether the changes are right for them or not. And at that point, it should be blatantly obvious whether they're a good candidate for SRS or not.
Again, I know I'm being biased, because I really don't think that it's fair that I'm stuck waiting in limbo land, being forced to put up with anatomy that I hate with no end in sight, just because I'm socially anxious and I want to make sure that I'm going to be accepted as female before making the social switch. And I'm not even going to be eligible for this surgery that I've known that I wanted since I was 13 years old, until after a YEAR of living as a woman with a penis. That just seems unfair to me, especially since the rest of my body is basically already completely female.
Again, I think HRT is way more inclusive. Because having been a member of the eunuch community, and therefore knowing many male-identifying people who would love to have genital surgeries available to them, I feel like having been on anti-androgens for a year, and therefore knowing exactly what physical effects you're getting yourself into, plus having psychological counseling that reaffirms that you're making an informed decision, should be enough. Where RLE as a requirement basically limits these things that would help many people, to binary-identifying classic Harry Benjamin transsexuals only.
I still dont get the whole HRT thing, i mean ive been on then for 11 years now, a tbh they dont do all that much, chemical castration is the really big changer, getting on zoladex makes a million times more difference. Starting HRT on your own could kill you or damage your body, probably not the best idea.
you don't need HRT for the RLE, the rest of your life is the RLE.. get hot and get out there!
HRT is one of those things I think that varies a lot. If you smoke or treat your body badly it will not help you much, you will end up with terrible skin and look older than you are. Yet the same can be said for some very healthy people. I am just hoping it softens a few things and moves fat to the right areas. The rest is how I feel, and my confidence. Although hair removal (must remove beard shadow just look at my avatar eww!) and a nose job are on the cards for me :P
Quote from: Sarah leah on February 19, 2014, 07:38:35 PM
HRT is one of those things I think that varies a lot. If you smoke or treat your body badly it will not help you much, you will end up with terrible skin and look older than you are. Yet the same can be said for some very healthy people. I am just hoping it softens a few things and moves fat to the right areas. The rest is how I feel, and my confidence. Although hair removal (must remove beard shadow just look at my avatar eww!) and a nose job are on the cards for me :P
yes, the chin hair must go, You look quite feminine though
I had to do RLE for hormones but only did the counselling.When I was told that I had to do RLE for hormones in Australia , I just went dressed in short shorts and a girly jumper with tiny ponytail to 1 session and then I went back to androgynous clothing and boy mode. Even my therapist said to me not to go straight into female clothing /packed on make-up. I was kinda laughed at under peoples breathes when I walked the main street , to see therapist. It was the most uncomfortable feeling I had ever experienced but I just held my head up high. Though why would I do that everyday for 3 months for hormones, just didn't make any sense to me. It was like setting myself up to be selected upon the majority. I Just waited till hormones / lazer to do their work and now I feel so much happier and confident. Back then yeah I would of probably stopped transition and hated myself or my mental health would of been vulnerable after years of getting more confident after school harassment. So I don't believe people should have to do RLE for hormones.
Quote from: sally1990 on February 20, 2014, 01:04:54 PM
I had to do RLE for hormones but only did the counselling.When I was told that I had to do RLE for hormones in Australia , I just went dressed in short shorts and a girly jumper with tiny ponytail to 1 session and then I went back to androgynous clothing and boy mode. Even my therapist said to me not to go straight into female clothing /packed on make-up. I was kinda laughed at under peoples breathes when I walked the main street , to see therapist. It was the most uncomfortable feeling I had ever experienced but I just held my head up high. Though why would I do that everyday for 3 months for hormones, just didn't make any sense to me. It was like setting myself up to be selected upon the majority. I Just waited till hormones / lazer to do their work and now I feel so much happier and confident. Back then yeah I would of probably stopped transition and hated myself or my mental health would of been vulnerable after years of getting more confident after school harassment. So I don't believe people should have to do RLE for hormones.
This raises a good point - even if you are told you have to do RLE before HRT - how the heck are they going to know? I mean, do you have to start taking photos and saying 'look there's me shopping', 'there's me driving', 'there's me at work'.
i remember bring the clinique a letter from my boss many years ago lol
Quotethink of HRT RLE like I think of homework contributing to someone's grade.
Haha, that's a good way of put it, and take the sting out of its tale :p
QuoteIt's important for all the reasons. Anyone who thinks that making the decision to use body-modifying and DNA manipulating chemicals, permanently modify the most nerve-ending dense area of the human body, and/or cutting away at their face like a jigsaw puzzle without a serious test of 'is this right for me in the real world'. is either immature, entitled, delusional, or a combination of all three. This is not a game and it's not something you get the hang of in a day, a week, or even a couple of months. Hell, even a couple of years is a stretch but a little 'ol year? Really?
Anyone whining about that is just plain impatient... and probably some of those other things.
Nope, not impatient or any other of the above dubious qualities. I don't want to do RLT pre-hormones simply because men-dressing-as-women who also change their names and birth sex whilst still looking shockingly male simply get the sack from work and abuse from people. Simple as that, really. RLT implies that in order to be a true transexual and therefore worthy of treatment, you have to become a walking stereotype. Its not the concept of HRT that bothers me, on paper it does make sense, but this is the real world, and its governend by weak and reactionary individuals, and the only thing one can do is play the system. Not walk into it and then get machine-gunned down.
There's quite a few people on this site who have transitioned pre-HRT and performed RLT pre-HRT and their lives have imploded spectacularly and horrifically. Most often because society, their work and family can't tolerate the idea of a passable transexual, let alone a "man in a dress". This is an unavoidable fact, sadly, and no amount of blue-sky thinking is going to change how the vast majority of humans think.
And, I have kind of noticed that those who have commented with "I think RLT is a good idea" and "I did RLE for a whole year and I didn't have any problems" interestingly tend to be very passable as their target sex pre HRT/FFS etc.... So trust me, and others, its a very different state of play when you don't have the luxury of passing before treatment ;)
As for needing RLT in order to experience the life of a woman before taking serious steps (such as HRT) - once again, I do stress there is a big difference between the life of a non-passable transexual and a cis-woman. And once again also, those who successfully experience life as a cis-woman pre-HRT (for better and worse) tend to be those who (surprise!) look the most passable.
So yes...
QuoteI really cannot reiterate this enough: what works for one person does not necessarily work for others. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying RLE never works. It works great for some people and I, personally, am phenomenally happy for those people. That is seriously wonderful for them. It does not work for everyone, though, and not every person who it fails for is someone who just doesn't belong.
And hence, it should not be mandatory, but should be something is recommended or offered, but NOT made mandatory. Patients should be made aware of the risks, etc, and told that RLT may help, but it should not be a benchmark.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 20, 2014, 02:41:13 PM
Umm... with kind of mentality I was raised, if I was forced to undergo RLE before getting hormones, I would have rather ended with self-medication. Now, if I have to look back, I kinda did that anyway but for entirely different reasons :).
like i said i've seen both sides of this, believe me the doctors are trying to do whats best for you, despite what you may think. I question the true motives of people that dont understand this.
RLE before HRT, NO. Before surgery, yes.
Quote from: jebee on February 20, 2014, 02:44:17 PM
like i said i've seen both sides of this, believe me the doctors are trying to do whats best for you, despite what you may think. I question the true motives of people that dont understand this.
I question the motives of many around here.
I thinks its proper before grs because it forces you think about what your doing. I don't know what percentage of transgender leaning people would wake up one morning and say to themselves they need to be female and if there were no time restrictions for HRT and surgery would get up in the morning and by afternoon be asking to set up an appointment for surgery. I some how think that would be a bad idea.
I did the RLE before HRt and i didn't pass yes i got abuse, but so what life is hard, get over it.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 20, 2014, 02:51:08 PM
You probably wont believe this, but sometimes I wonder about that too :D.
But knowing the system, I seriously doubt if they would ever let someone who is rather androgyne than classic MtF to transition :).
would it even be a good idea?
sorry, I'm starting to get confused
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 20, 2014, 03:31:39 PM
For the person concerned or for system as such? Answers would be opposite in both cases but difference between them is a human life.
from a medical point of view giving people treatment that could harm instead of doing good is a very bad thing indeed.
Quote from: ConfusedHumanUK on February 20, 2014, 02:16:40 PM
This raises a good point - even if you are told you have to do RLE before HRT - how the heck are they going to know? I mean, do you have to start taking photos and saying 'look there's me shopping', 'there's me driving', 'there's me at work'.
I was not going to return to this but since a lot of people seem to have no idea what RLE is
really like...
In the UK (I cannot speak for the USA) the clinic simply requires documentary proof. For instance they like to see that you have changed your name and updated your tax records - a pay slip will do. This means you have outed yourself to your company, or at least personnel, the Inland Revenue and probably the people you work with. It is hard not to out yourself if you update your payslip and one payslip is not enough, they want a continuous series spanning months. They like you to change your medical details at your GP. They like to see other things like club memberships in your female name, utility bills, council tax bills, car insurance, credit card statements, bank statements, etc etc.
How much paper can you change, telling people you are female and then happily live a male lifestyle? In one respect it is the precise opposite of the CrossDresser's problem - they have to be so careful when out as female because all their paperwork is that of a male.
If you truly have dysphoria then changing all your paperwork is the first step in divesting yourself of the wrong gender. Is anyone
really going to go to that amount of trouble for a bit of a laugh? For a joke? If you are silly enough, and determined enough, to fake all this then the Clinic will reckon you get what you deserve. They will not really care what you wear or how your hair is cut. That is your problem, but if you change all your documentation and then turn up wearing bovver boots and beard then they will probably reckon you have other issues that need addressing. They are probably right as well.
Transition is not one sided. The doctors will help you, but you have to help yourself too. There is no point in being lazy about it. To transition well takes a lot of work.
Quote from: provizora on February 20, 2014, 03:53:17 PM
I was not going to return to this but since a lot of people seem to have no idea what RLE is really like...
In the UK (I cannot speak for the USA) the clinic simply requires documentary proof. For instance they like to see that you have changed your name and updated your tax records - a pay slip will do. This means you have outed yourself to your company, or at least personnel, the Inland Revenue and probably the people you work with. It is hard not to out yourself if you update your payslip and one payslip is not enough, they want a continuous series spanning months. They like you to change your medical details at your GP. They like to see other things like club memberships in your female name, utility bills, council tax bills, car insurance, credit card statements, bank statements, etc etc.
How much paper can you change, telling people you are female and then happily live a male lifestyle? In one respect it is the precise opposite of the CrossDresser's problem - they have to be so careful when out as female because all their paperwork is that of a male.
If you truly have dysphoria then changing all your paperwork is the first step in divesting yourself of the wrong gender. Is anyone really going to go to that amount of trouble for a bit of a laugh? For a joke? If you are silly enough, and determined enough, to fake all this then the Clinic will reckon you get what you deserve. They will not really care what you wear or how your hair is cut. That is your problem, but if you change all your documentation and then turn up wearing bovver boots and beard then they will probably reckon you have other issues that need addressing. They are probably right as well.
Transition is not one sided. The doctors will help you, but you have to help yourself too. There is no point in being lazy about it. To transition well takes a lot of work.
plus 1, this has put it perfectly!!!
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 20, 2014, 02:43:19 PM
RLT implies that in order to be a true transexual and therefore worthy of treatment, you have to become a walking stereotype.
No, that is not the case. See my post previous to this one
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 20, 2014, 02:43:19 PM
Its not the concept of HRT that bothers me, on paper it does make sense, but this is the real world, and its governend by weak and reactionary individuals, and the only thing one can do is play the system.
Playing the system is fine - until it goes wrong.
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 20, 2014, 02:43:19 PM
There's quite a few people on this site who have transitioned pre-HRT and performed RLT pre-HRT and their lives have imploded spectacularly and horrifically.
That proves nothing. There are people on this site using no-RLE / Infromed consent and they have had it go horribly wrong too.
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on February 20, 2014, 02:43:19 PM
And, I have kind of noticed that those who have commented with "I think RLT is a good idea" and "I did RLE for a whole year and I didn't have any problems" interestingly tend to be very passable as their target sex pre HRT/FFS etc.... So trust me, and others, its a very different state of play when you don't have the luxury of passing before treatment ;)
There is no way I "passed" before treatment. I was a 47 year bloke with medium male pattern baldness, 4 stones overweight, a deep voice and a body covered in hair. Forearms like a chimp. My first ladies clothes were size 22. I am not alone with it either. I know of others who managed it too.
At the GIC I have seen people there discussing their hormone results and they still look like men. They are already on hormones and the do not pass. In spite of that they seem to get on with stuff. What do you suggest that they do? They do not want to live as blokes, but by your logic that is what they should do. Sorry - it will not work.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 20, 2014, 04:03:48 PM
Wow! Do You really can change in the UK all this documentation without undergoing SRS before???
Yes. I have changed EVERYTHING and I am pre-SRS. There is a simple form online that lets you change all your government records in one go (see the last link below)
https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll
https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/report-changes/individual/name-address.htm
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on February 20, 2014, 04:11:37 PM
Cool! Such approach starts making sense at least. Here where I am, You cant change anything until Your papers are changed - and You can only change Your papers after SRS.
In the past, the clinics found that people needed to make some sort of commitment to their transition. The problem was that when simply given the pills and left to get on with things, many people never socially transitioned. After a while they had feminised to the point that other people were confused by these individuals and treated them oddly or badly. Gender Dysphoria is essentially an anxiety disorder and these people where amplifying their anxiety and making things worse.
So the doctors/shrinks looked for some commitment to the process. They wanted to be sure that the social transition happened and so they came up with the "RLE". The great uninformed assumed that this meant flouncing around in a dress and a high pitched voice. It does not. It means that you start telling people and start making changes in your life.
RLE has nothing to do with clothing. People here jumping up and down screaming about looking like a man in a dress have it wrong. The UK's largest clinic at Charing Cross says
"The RLE, sometimes called the Real Life Test is the period of time when a person lives 100% in their preferred gender. This means that they are known to their friends and family as well as at work (paid or voluntary) or at their place of study or daily occupation as their preferred gender.""Dress and act as you feel most comfortable. This is a safe space and anything that people generally wear in public is fine."- http://www.wlmht.nhs.uk/gi/gender-identity-clinic/frequently-asked-questions/
Quote from: jebee on February 20, 2014, 03:20:48 PM
I did the RLE before HRt and i didn't pass yes i got abuse, but so what life is hard, get over it.
Didn't know life was hard
Quote from: kelly_aus on February 20, 2014, 02:54:42 PM
I question the motives of many around here.
Doctors are never wrong , and 2 different doctors can never have different opinions
As for the clothes argument about RLE , then I was already living RLE beforehand. One therapist told me it wasn't needed or necessary and another insisting me to come in female clothes. I really wish I had of known that , if that is the case here in Australia.
Quote from: provizora on February 20, 2014, 03:53:17 PM
I was not going to return to this but since a lot of people seem to have no idea what RLE is really like...
In the UK (I cannot speak for the USA) the clinic simply requires documentary proof. For instance they like to see that you have changed your name and updated your tax records - a pay slip will do. This means you have outed yourself to your company, or at least personnel, the Inland Revenue and probably the people you work with. It is hard not to out yourself if you update your payslip and one payslip is not enough, they want a continuous series spanning months. They like you to change your medical details at your GP. They like to see other things like club memberships in your female name, utility bills, council tax bills, car insurance, credit card statements, bank statements, etc etc.
How much paper can you change, telling people you are female and then happily live a male lifestyle? In one respect it is the precise opposite of the CrossDresser's problem - they have to be so careful when out as female because all their paperwork is that of a male.
If you truly have dysphoria then changing all your paperwork is the first step in divesting yourself of the wrong gender. Is anyone really going to go to that amount of trouble for a bit of a laugh? For a joke? If you are silly enough, and determined enough, to fake all this then the Clinic will reckon you get what you deserve. They will not really care what you wear or how your hair is cut. That is your problem, but if you change all your documentation and then turn up wearing bovver boots and beard then they will probably reckon you have other issues that need addressing. They are probably right as well.
Transition is not one sided. The doctors will help you, but you have to help yourself too. There is no point in being lazy about it. To transition well takes a lot of work.
That's a good way of putting it I guess :) (For the record, I wasn't asking because I intend to do so, I was more curious how they define the RLE and determine if you've done it or not).
There was me planning on changing my name before even seeking therapy :P
This is going to be a topic that is never ending, and will never have a right answer.
I can see the issue/solution on both sides of the fence. Those who've already done RLE without HRT are obviously 'in the know' so know exactly what it entails, and know how they are treated. For those who've not done it, all they see is this impossible task, that will end in them getting shouted at, hit, or even killed. Obviously that's unlikely to be the case, but hopefully you see what I'm saying.
I know the attitude from several here is basically 'suck it up'. But I cant help feeling that there's no way that could ever apply to everyone. If you're a confident, outgoing, chirpy, social person it'll probably work very well. If you've got few friends, low self-esteem, social anxiety, etc then it's going to be a much bigger challenge.
To simplify it a bit. Think of people with a fear of flying. There are those that will get on, feel a bit scared but think " Screw it, I'm going somewhere nice and sunny!" and there are those that freeze at the door, and bail out in a state of intense anxiety and fear. They're both trying to get to the same place. One of them is just a lot mentally stronger.
It's an interesting debate. As I said though, whilst there are good points on either side, there will never be a way to say for certain if EVERYONE should or should not do RLE before HRT. It really does come down to the individual person and what their mental and emotional state is.
This all being said, I'm now very much confused by the above couple of posts regarding what RLE is actully officially classed as. I was always lead to believe it was:
- Official name change
- Out to work/family/friends/world
- Present as your identified gender (i.e Female for MTF) on a day to day basis.
However if the above information is correct, the actual RLE is:
- Official name change
- Out to work/family/friends (but not world?)
- Present however the hell you like
Quote from: ConfusedHumanUK on February 20, 2014, 05:10:11 PM
There was me planning on changing my name before even seeking therapy :P
That is what I did. It saves you a lot of time later because they generally accept a Deed Poll / Statutory Declaration as your RLE start date. By the time you get to the GRS interviews your RLE period will be well along and maybe even complete.
Quote from: ConfusedHumanUK on February 20, 2014, 05:10:11 PMTo simplify it a bit. Think of people with a fear of flying. There are those that will get on, feel a bit scared but think " Screw it, I'm going somewhere nice and sunny!" and there are those that freeze at the door, and bail out in a state of intense anxiety and fear. They're both trying to get to the same place. One of them is just a lot mentally stronger.
My mother is terrified of flying. She gets help to get get on the plane. I had help from local support groups in my RLE. I fail to see why people cannot be helped in this process. I think it would make it a lot easier for a lot of people.
Quote from: ConfusedHumanUK on February 20, 2014, 05:10:11 PMThis all being said, I'm now very much confused by the above couple of posts regarding what RLE is actully officially classed as. I was always lead to believe it was:
- Official name change
- Out to work/family/friends/world
- Present as your identified gender (i.e Female for MTF) on a day to day basis.
However if the above information is correct, the actual RLE is:
- Official name change
- Out to work/family/friends (but not world?)
- Present however the hell you like
If you update your name, medical records, bank records, HMRC records, etc then you ARE out to work/family/friends/world.
"Present however the hell you like" is true enough but I was cautious enough to turn up at the clinic in something feminine and with my nails painted. I find wearing male clothes unpleasant so I wear ladies' jeans most days, heeled ankle boots and a fairly plain blouse. Next I started working on my voice, letting my hair grow and having bristles pulled out. Most people never noticed.
Quote from: provizora on February 20, 2014, 04:08:31 PM
Yes. I have changed EVERYTHING and I am pre-SRS. There is a simple form online that lets you change all your government records in one go (see the last link below)
https://www.gov.uk/change-name-deed-poll
https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/report-changes/individual/name-address.htm
Can I ask a question about this?
In order to change the passport you need a gender recognition certificate, and to get one of those don't you need two years of RLE?
This is a really fantastic thread that is really clarifying a lot of things.
Quote from: Joan on February 20, 2014, 05:55:08 PM
Can I ask a question about this?
In order to change the passport you need a gender recognition certificate, and to get one of those don't you need two years of RLE?
This is a really fantastic thread that is really clarifying a lot of things.
A GRC is not required but you can use one if you have one. The following link lists documents that can be used. Any ONE is sufficient
https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/changing-your-gender
Quote from: provizora on February 20, 2014, 06:21:59 PM
A GRC is not required but you can use one if you have one. The following link lists documents that can be used. Any ONE is sufficient
https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/changing-your-gender
yes , good information thanks
Quote from: provizora on February 20, 2014, 06:21:59 PM
A GRC is not required but you can use one if you have one. The following link lists documents that can be used. Any ONE is sufficient
https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/changing-your-gender
Thank you for helping me out with that.
does any one know the process of changing your identity to female in the US how long does it take and do you have to have grs before or after changing the documents .
Kia Ora Steph,
Perhaps this might help : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Anatta on February 20, 2014, 09:44:36 PM
Kia Ora Steph,
Perhaps this might help : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States
Metta Zenda :)
thanks that helped
Quote from: stephaniec on February 21, 2014, 10:28:31 AM
thanks that helped
so, unless I'm missing some thing, It's best to change the paper part after GRS. This leaves the RLE part which means in the US all you need to do is walk around every day life in nice jeans and top maybe some make up maybe not and tell everyone your female. or is this too simplified. I'm just trying to figure this out , sorry
Quote from: stephaniec on February 21, 2014, 11:11:20 AM
so, unless I'm missing some thing, It's best to change the paper part after GRS. This leaves the RLE part which means in the US all you need to do is walk around every day life in nice jeans and top maybe some make up maybe not and tell everyone your female. or is this too simplified. I'm just trying to figure this out , sorry
In the US it is probably best/easiest to change your papers early in the process. Either at the time you start RLE or shortly
thereafter.
Like you said RLE is simple. Find a presentation that works for you. Come out to all/most of the important people and say this
is my identity, as of now I am living as a female with the name <your name>. I ask for your respect and support.
Some people may well respond, as my sister did "Live as a female? What the f?#* does that mean?"
My response was "I am not sure exactly what it will entail. But I am putting myself out there to society and the world whatever
may come. To do my best to grow into a woman that I am proud of."
To me that is what a "RLE" is. It is living a Real Life. Hopefully by the start of "RLE" you have already grown quite a bit. Grown within yourself. Grown or acquired the level of self acceptance you will need for the challenges ahead. You have dreams and vision of the woman you want to be. Acknowledging and announcing that you are embarking on another stage of growth. You are now at a a public stage in this process. To continue growing you need to come out of your shell. You are a flower breaking through the earth. To grow into a new identity. To grow into a transfigured, transformed body. To grow into, and push against societal norms and expectations. To live a new life -- the life of a woman with a transexual history.
This certainly got all rambley.... I think my point is at some point a person needs to state their identity. It is probably really helpful to have a name change to help document that date. But to me the proof is when are you willing to take the risk required to live that life and that identity.
Truly nothing external is needed to live that life. FFS, documents, HRT, SRS, skirts, makeup, whatever none of that makes you a woman. Though these artifacts and attributes may surely help others see you as a woman. And they may surely help protect and strengthen your resolve, may help you see a woman within.
Living a life out loud, stating your truth out loud. That is a "RLE"
This is my truth for what it is worth.
Best Wishes,
Elaina
I started my RLE about three months ago, and it wasnt really planned! I just gradually started living more and more as Zoe, and was fed up of hiding away! After coming out to freinds, i then felt asthough i had nothing to hide!
I didn't start my RLE to validate being a transexual, as i was sure that this was what i wanted! It was more a case of feeling totally trapped, and having to break free! I couldnt hide my feelings anymore, and i felt so strongly that i had to live as a woman, or i was going to go mad!
Sometimes, when i get clocked, it does hurt and i do feel scared sometimes, as im not on HRT yet! But i would never go back to how it was before, and i think this experience will make me a stronger woman! I also think starting my real life experience before HRT has spurred me on alot to get reffered to the gender clinic, and start electrolysis and voice therapy . . . Things i wouldnt have considered or done had i not started living as Zoe.
I just cannot wait to get onto hormones, as i do feel this would help me alot with confidence!
Xx
Quote from: Zoe Louise Taylor on February 21, 2014, 02:32:03 PM
I started my RLE about three months ago, and it wasnt really planned! I just gradually started living more and more as Zoe, and was fed up of hiding away! After coming out to freinds, i then felt asthough i had nothing to hide!
I didn't start my RLE to validate being a transexual, as i was sure that this was what i wanted! It was more a case of feeling totally trapped, and having to break free! I couldnt hide my feelings anymore, and i felt so strongly that i had to live as a woman, or i was going to go mad!
Sometimes, when i get clocked, it does hurt and i do feel scared sometimes, as im not on HRT yet! But i would never go back to how it was before, and i think this experience will make me a stronger woman! I also think starting my real life experience before HRT has spurred me on alot to get reffered to the gender clinic, and start electrolysis and voice therapy . . . Things i wouldnt have considered or done had i not started living as Zoe.
I just cannot wait to get onto hormones, as i do feel this would help me alot with confidence!
Xx
I know the hormones were a big boost to my confidence and determination.