For example if a biological male has low testosterone and gender dysphoria can taking testosterone help with the dysphoria? The same question goes for FTM, can they take estrogen and relieve some dysphoria? For the record my pre-hrt blood work is as follows:
35 Year Old Bio Male:
Total T - 270 ng/dl
Free T - 0.34 ng/dl
Free T - 0.13 %
LH - 4.3 mIU/mL
Estradiol < 12 pg/mL
My thinking is that this would not help because it is my understanding that many transsexuals have normal biological birth sex hormones yet their dysphoria persists. Thus there is no link between gender dysphoria and hormone levels. But I'd be curious to hear of actual real life experiences of anyone that has attempted this route or knows of anyone that has.
I'm not sure if i had low testosteron but I have tried to use anabolic steroids for a short period but it didn't help with my gender dysphoria and made me feel worse.
I only have anecdotal evidence, but I have heard of several MTFs who have tried to force their minds into accepting their bodies with testosterone treatment before accepting that the only true solution to the dysphoria problem is transition. Based on this, I don't think birth hormones help much in the regard. I'm keen to see if anyone has better, more scientific takes on this topic.
Around six years ago, at age 58, my physician found that my testosterone was low and my estrogen was high. I started taking injections of testosterone cypionate.
Although I felt I should have been a girl in my younger years, I accepted my maleness eventually. From around age 16 to 58, I functioned well as a heterosexual male. I certainly benefited from the testosterone in many ways, gaining strength, feeling more energy and improved general health.
There was, however, a peculiar side effect of the testosterone. Evidently the body has an enzyme, aromatase, that converts testosterone to estradiol. Six months after I started T, my nipples were erect all the time, and I started developing breasts. Then the dysphoria, which I had managed to hold at bay for decades came roaring back.
Memories that had been buried for decades came to the fore. Once I figured out what was happening, I sought out more estrogen. First Oestrogel and later Estradiol Valerate injections. That made me feel even better, but I had to deal with feminization.
Here the real paradox... when I'm on estrogen the dysphoria disappears nearly completely. If I cut back on the estrogen and increase the testosterone, I again become dysphoric.
In my case, and a few others, testosterone drastically increased gender dysphoria. Dr Anne Vitale has written her observations on this phenomena. http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm
Admittedly my hormones and makeup are atypical. My mother took DES, Diethylsilbestrol when pregnant with me. Although given to lessen the likelihood of miscarriage, it was a potent endocrine disruptor.
Before I began HRT my T was 150 on a scale of 300-1100 and my Estradiol was 80 on a 0-50 scale. I wouldn't say that taking T was a mistake, but it made me the woman I am today.
Randi
My body was naturally poisoned by enough T at an early age to where I started getting hairy and facial structure masculenized. So no, more poison would not have "cured" me and set me into the path that society wanted for me.
Yeah , Im pretty sure that If they were to give me more T Id end up killing myself...
You can change the body...but not the mind...
Anyone coming at me with a syringe full of T would be too busy dodging flying projectiles.
T is definitely a poison . I have a condition that causes me to have an explosive reaction to triggering situations and being on HRT has stopped the explosiveness . I'm much safer on estrogen.
Up until well into the 1970's 'feminine' or pre gay boys were sometimes treated with testosterone to 'butch them up', which of course nothing changed about their femininety or gay sexual identity.
It had terrible consequences for feminine pre MTF.
I've never heard about tomboyish girls being treated with oestrogen to 'femme them up' though.
Quote from: Dahlia on February 26, 2014, 02:47:56 PM
Up until well into the 1970's 'feminine' or pre gay boys were sometimes treated with testosterone to 'butch them up'
That sounds horrible actually when you put it that way...
I guess a good question for the Endo would be if he has any medical concerns about my T levels as in could there be an underlying medical condition. Seems to me that would be an important thing to know before starting any hormones.
The more T in my system, the more miserable I was.
I have a friend whose testes shut down when she was 30, was diagnosed with hypogonadism and given T injections that sent her dysphoria through the roof, making her suicidally depressed. As soon as she was given estrogen, she felt better than ever.
I was on T for a while. It did give me more muscle strength, but I was much more, edgy. I really noticed it when driving, I would loose patience really easily. It eventually started making me nervous, and my dysphoria became the worst it had ever been.
I found calmness after starting E, on my HRT. E's the right hormone, for this girl!
Quite the opposite, at least in my case. My treatment for low testosterone is what set off my gender dysphoria. A blood test revealed that a lot of the testosterone that I was taking was being converted into estrogen and my body wasn't responding to the testosterone. This may be because I'm intersexed, with high aromatase activity and an androgen insensitivity. My micropenis and short fingers, which are said to be an indication of low testosterone in the womb, may confirm this. It's been over a year since I was put on testosterone therapy by a urologist and I can't get erections from it. It does absolutely nothing for me. I've been on estradiol now for about 8 and a half months and I can get erections from it. My endocrinologist first prescribed the estradiol as a test and he now thinks that I should remain on it. I also had a history of self harm, which ended with the start of my estradiol therapy. My doctor said that this convinced him that I was transgender. For me, being transgender is not a choice, but a birth defect that I have to accept, since it made me who I am.
From the other side of the fence, I'm pretty sure anyone suggesting it to me would end up with fingers wrapped around their necks.
Considering it would likely increase my aggression, body hair growth, and bone growth if some growth plates are still open, it would make it worse.
When I was diagnosed as having low T receiving additional T (androgel and also by injection) did not help with my dysphoria at all
On the either hand as soon as I was diagnosed as TG with severe GD and started HRT (Anti androgen and estradiol) my GD disappeared completely, nothing, nada, gone. My experience is therefore completely different to that which you hypothesised would occur when my birth sex hormones were increased/decreased.
Giving me testosterone would be a bit like pouring gasoline on a lit fire. I would likely explode.
It doesn't work.
I'm one of the few who can speak intelligently on the subject instead of hypothesizing with spurious claims that have no basis in reality, as I have been on testosterone replacement therapy since I was 18. I'm now 22. I have hypogonadism. I forget the exact levels, but my free testosterone was somewhere around 250 ng/dl prior to treatment.
I can honestly say that TRT does not make the gender feelings better OR worse. When I stop the shots, I feel the same (regarding gender). When I increase the dose, I feel the same. Now lowering or increasing the dose does effect me physically, but not in terms of my relationship with myself and my gender.
So, at least speaking personally, it does NOT make things worse, but it does not help either. Gender that is. It did help me physically, such as treat the symptoms of hypogonadism.
I imagine the only effect for most people would be to make the dysphoria worse. For a MtF, watching yourself masculinize more rapidly and grow hairy would be awful!
It WAS a common practice back in the 1960s. At 15 my mother hauled me off to a shrink who suggested I be put on testosterone to "make a man of me", against my will if needs be! He also suggested 'aversion therapy' and even a lobotomy if necessary to break me of the 'delusion' that I was/should have been a girl. Despite being a timid and mild-mannered child, I stormed out of that session hollering "I'd rather take cyanide!" and walked the 10 miles home! That threat scared me more than anything else in life.
Quote from: Northern Jane on February 27, 2014, 06:51:31 AM
At 15 my mother hauled me off to a shrink who suggested I be put on testosterone to "make a man of me", against my will if needs be! He also suggested 'aversion therapy' and even a lobotomy if necessary to break me of the 'delusion' that I was/should have been a girl.
*Shudders*
Amazing how medical arrogance can lead to treatments that are harmful and destructive instead of therapeutic.
About 10-15 years ago I was into weight lifting, trying to man myself up. There were over the counter substances (steroid precursors) you could buy that would convert into testosterone, such as the well known androstenedione that got baseball player Mark McGwire into trouble, or the more potent 19-Norandrosterone which is what I was taking (it was perfectly legal when I bought it, but it is a felony to buy or possess those substances now). Over a period of a few months I saw rapid muscle development. I also had typical male oily skin and guy funk, and I was quite aggressive - typical body builder on steroids behavior. Interestingly, one of the possible side effects of taking those substances was increased breast development in some individuals, due to excess testosterone being converted into estrogen. They sold another pill that stopped that side effect from happening, so I took that one too - after all, what guy would want boobs?? LOL......
I did not know that I was heading down the transgender/transsexual path at that time so I didn't know what symptoms to watch for. I can say that the extra testosterone that was running through my body did nothing to lift the mental funk that I was in; it just made me build muscle faster, made me stink, and made me far more aggressive. I looked in the mirror one day, didn't like what i saw (a sign of early dysphoria?), and stopped taking that stuff. It seems that when you are already mentally in the deep dark abyss, taking something that puts you further into the deep dark abyss goes unnoticed.
Fortunately I discovered that my mental funk (which eventually grew into dysphoria) was fixed by taking estrogen, not by amping up on more testosterone.
Ftm here... A few years ago I was on a high dose of estrogen for fibroids. Not only did it not help that, I felt craaaazzzzy AND I developed a pulmonary embolism, caused by the hormone (in addition to a previously unknown blood clotting disorder).
So extra e did not help me in any way, only caused major harm.
I certainly don't recommend transition unless all options are exhausted. Transition is documentable problematic. I can however say I know of no mtf that has been cured by t injection, of course that sort of defines mtf doesn't it?
Edit added. To be clear, I do know some mtfs that tried T first including one that used it for decades before transition anyhow.
Quote from: Northern Jane on February 27, 2014, 06:51:31 AM
I imagine the only effect for most people would be to make the dysphoria worse. For a MtF, watching yourself masculinize more rapidly and grow hairy would be awful!
It WAS a common practice back in the 1960s. At 15 my mother hauled me off to a shrink who suggested I be put on testosterone to "make a man of me", against my will if needs be! He also suggested 'aversion therapy' and even a lobotomy if necessary to break me of the 'delusion' that I was/should have been a girl. Despite being a timid and mild-mannered child, I stormed out of that session hollering "I'd rather take cyanide!" and walked the 10 miles home! That threat scared me more than anything else in life.
I hope I would of had the strength to do that because given the severity of my cross dressing and being severely introverted and that's exactly what the doctor would of done.
I don't think it would make it better or cure it, my T levels were higher than normal for the normal female, so the docs gave me birth control which has low estrogen in it, to even me out and "make me better" in a sense, and all it did was make me more dysphoric when my will call them "man boobs" got bigger.
This is all anecdotal, but my experience has been that my T levels are directly related to the amount of dysphoria that I experience. I was overweight my entire life, which I'm hypothesizing that it caused my T levels to be lower than normal due to being overweight. About a year ago I started losing weight. As my weight dropped, the amount of dysphoria I experienced rose. I believe this was due to my T levels coming up from the weight loss. I started HRT about 4 months ago, and shortly after starting, most of my dysphoria has completely gone away, which I believe is a result of my T levels dropping. I don't have any lab work to back any of this up, but anecdotally, I believe T levels do have an effect on the dysphoria that I feel.
All;
This is an amazing thread and explains so much to me. When I was about 38, my mother told me that the when she was pregnant with me, because of how she was not well overall (this was 1950-51 with food rationing still underway and with my mother in Germany with the occupation forces), she had been put on a treatment which I now believe was DES to try to ensure there was no miscarriages.
Over the years as I grew up from an early Age (in my case about 6) I always thought that I was a girl. Of course my parents never understood this and I went through awful periods including phyciatrist's, Electric Shock Therapy to cure me of this strange affliction and so much that I remember at about 14 that the way to survive was to become an Alpha male and bury what I now understand to be Gender dysphoria deep down in my psyche.
I then ended up with a number of relationships with a many women including two marriages and two other long term partnerships with women and whilst many ended up with separation and or divorce it all came down all too frequently to inability to function as a male and in a number of cases separation came about because I admitted to them being TS pleading to stay together.
Although I first transitioned in the 80s and lived full time as a woman for nearly 18 months and was on HRT, in those days no one organised blood tests. Then I ended up moving to Australia and was on HRT for another 6 months, but the longer I was on HRT the more my dysphoria left me. I had virtually no libido and the urge to dress as female basically left me. I slowly slipped back into my male self.
Although underlying it all was this bubbling undercurrent of dissatisfaction with my lot. I overcompensated all the time being seen as passionate about my work and other activities. The years slipped by for me.
A year ago other events triggered my dysphoria again, with an urgent need to transition. I already had my first letter and notes from Charing Cross and diagnosis as Transgender, found my way to Susans.Org and I presented fully as a woman for my first sessions with my Transgender GP and Therapist (after recommendations from Cindy and others of who to see) and after blood tests was found to have very very low T levels, in fact only just above natal female levels. T2.8, my endocrinologist put me back on Provera
Now after a year on only E, (dosage doubled twice) my T levels are almost non existent less than 0.5, I am progressively becoming more feminized, beautiful skin, rounded bottom , hips and B Cup breasts, hair is growing on my bald spot and body hair is diminishing. Male trousers no longer fit - I have split two pairs already (the hips, thighs and bottom are too big, so I now just wear women's jeans) I am also frequently out and about socialising as Judith and I am rarely read as I have no Adams Apple, very small hands and feet and with nails and toenails varnished and being well made up and conservatively dressed ( I had a colour analysis done a few years ago to help me with my dress colours) , so I generally pass very well. It helps that that I have a good voice range too, but over the last few months as I have become more feminine in appearance my dysphoria has started to dissipate with no longer the urge to fully transition.
So I back in limbo again!
So I have just read Ann Vitale's artyicle and I reckon this sums me up completely.
So not sure where that leaves me.
One thing though is that E leaves me feeling very calm and contented, vulnerable, maternal, feminine and now seemingly attracted to both men and women, but I seem to swing from wanting to be the female in a relationship with a man to be cared for and looked after to being this "middle" person neither female, nor male, where the urgency has gone. Sort of like Padma explained it to me.
Hugs
You have described my current situation. E leaves me feeling very calm, very centred and in complete equilibrium. My interest in or need to transition has largely disappeared but nevertheless I am slowly feminising and becoming neither male or female. The severe dysphoria has gone but returns with a vengeance if I reduce the E dosage. So, very much like you, I don't really know where that leaves me but it doesn't seem to matter.
My focus is now on enjoying and understanding my current state and any future change or travel that comes my way or that I elect to embrace. I have become quite philosophical if not spiritual re my situation - my ego seems curiously absent. I am no longer focused on passing or meeting the expectations of others. This feels to be the right place for me at this time in my life. I feel blessed, some degree of trepidation but mostly excitement and genuinely appreciative for this rich and unexpected life.