Hi everyone!
I'm new here and so far I really like this place. I'm so glad that there are others out there, to whom I can relate and who can relate to me.
So first of all, this is the current situation: I am 21 years old, male and androgynous. I look quiet androgynous, but not THAT feminine. For example: Next to your 'typical' guy I look more feminine, next to your 'typical' girl I look more masculine. For some time I hated this, because in high school I was bullied quiet often, because I was different. However, after high school, when I started really discovering who I really am, I came to terms with it and I am now at a point where I can confidently say that I like how I look. I don't have the wish to get an operation, nor do I want to grow breasts or anything of the like. But I want to stay the way I am.
But now I have heard, that pretty much after the age of 25, a lot of guys who look androgynous, started to become more and more masculine. I'm really scared of that. I don't want that to happen. So here's my question: How can I prevent this? Is hrt an option? Antiandrogens? And how would one go about that? I mean I could go see an andrologist and try to get a prescription, but I don't think I would get one for the sake of 'vanity'. It's not the aging issue for me, it's the masculinazation (is that a word?) So how could I go about that? Keep in mind, that I don't have the wish to grow breast tissue.
So far, there are a few natural things that I know that you can do, most of them focused on stimulating estrogen production and/or decrease testosterone. But natural things can of course only go so far.
What I do know:
- Eating soy/tofu products: These are known to stimulate estrogen production and decrease the amount of testosterone in the body.
- keeping away from meat as meat stimulates testosterone.
- Starving: Starving yourself is meant to decrease testosterone production while affecting the liver's abilty to diminish estrogen, therefore more of it will go into your body.
But like I said, those things can only go so far.
As for make up, hair and the likes, these too can only go so far and I don't want to end up looking like a 40 year old guy, who wears make up. (No offense intended) I like to keep people who see me wondering.
Does anybody know anything for that?
Thanks in advance!
Anti androgens, low dose estrogen, possibly breast tissue removal if necessary. That's my best guess. I certainly haven't come across anything. I have the same goal as far as body type and face, but might just compromise and get the boobs if they're part of the package
I'm guessing you would use Spiro? Yeah I don't know if I could get cool with the cleavage. What's bothering me most is the impotence. I still wanna have sex. Do cyproterone and flutamide cause impotence? And are these better or worse than spiro?
Also, how would you go about getting your hands on those? I'm guessing you're not planning to undergo SRS either? How do you get HRT if no transsexuality is present?
I'm not sure about the impotence thing except that it depends on the person. Some still have use, some don't. I'm considering SRS, just not for the same reasons I think most trans people do it. Getting prescribed HRT when not transsexual depends on where you live. There are many places with informed consent and that's the route I am trying. I'm hoping not being transsexual will not hinder me. I will be seeing a doctor within 4-5 months hopefully.
I'm currently in the Netherlands. I don't know how it is here... What I do know is that I definitely do not consider SRS. It just doesn't feel right for me. I don't think I would be happy.
Today at the natural health store I saw pills with pure soy bean extract that is used as a hormone supplement for women with menopause. You think those would help?
They might, they might not. I wouldn't waste time hoping that they would unless I had no other options.
So true...
Who would I see about antiandrogens? Just my regular doctor? He's not really quick with prescriptions.
Have you tried googling anything related to transgender along with your city? That's usually the easiest way to find something.
There may be support groups that could lead you in the right direction, or therapists who have experience in that kind of thing.
Or search for "informed consent HRT Amsterdam" or whatever city you are in or close to. I'm not sure if searching in English would be best or in Dutch, you could give both a try
Okay, I'll do that. Thanks for your help so far and good luck with your doctors appointment! ;)
Hi, starving is never an option since it has no benefits to your health at all. And food such as tofu etc. which contain estrogenic/antiandrogenic substances has an inadequate amount of them. Depending on where you live it might get easier/harder to get on HRT. If you live in Sweden it'll be impossible for you to get on hormones for being androgynous. I'm in a situation just like yours, I'll be 21 in just a few days and I hate looking masculine/male, it'd be better to be somewhere in between genders.
Just my yada-yada...
So, bubblegum, as I understand your post, you wish to remain an androgynous, femme guy.
You are worried about future masculinization. But you are not looking for any significant levels of feminization.
It seems to me, that anti-androgens are a reasonable idea to discuss with your doctor or therapist. Depending on where you live and what sort of medication plan you might have, there are several options out there. In your case, you might want to consider something, or -things, that act like chemical castration. Or even an orchidectomy.
Quote from: Jamie D on March 06, 2014, 05:11:03 PM
So, bubblegum, as I understand your post, you wish to remain an androgynous, femme guy.
You are worried about future masculinization. But you are not looking for any significant levels of feminization.
It seems to me, that anti-androgens are a reasonable idea to discuss with your doctor or therapist. Depending on where you live and what sort of medication plan you might have, there are several options out there. In your case, you might want to consider something, or -things, that act like chemical castration. Or even an orchidectomy.
But would lack of either sex hormone in the system not be something a doctor would recommend against? It's my understanding that having neither testosterone nor estrogen in your system can be a health risk.
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 06, 2014, 06:27:59 PM
But would lack of either sex hormone in the system not be something a doctor would recommend against? It's my understanding that having neither testosterone nor estrogen in your system can be a health risk.
True, in the long-term bubblegum would run the risk of osteoporosis. But no more so than any male-bodied eunuch. Your adrenal glands would still produce a small amount of testosterone. And calcium supplements should help retain bone density. Maybe even a bit of exogenous T and E if bubblegum wants to remain sexually active.
The thought of being on no hormones at all wouldn't be advisable in this situation. I'd say that you'll need both blockers and a very low amount of Oestrogen to avoid serious health problems. But I'm not any doctor, yet.
@Jamie D: Yes that's pretty much the goal. I"m not really looking for further feminization, like I said I look quiet androgynous as I am, but I'm worried that things will change once I pass 25. (Jaw getting wider, chin and orbital rim more prominent etc.)
I wouldn't mind a little bit of feminization though, if Estrogen were to become the most prominent hormone in my body. It's just that I don't have the wish for cleavage nor do I want to become impotent (!) or start Viagra at the tender age of 30.
However the problem is, WHICH Antiandrogen would be advisable? Spiro is out of the question I think, seeing as it does cause permanent impotence after a certain while.
The other (bigger) problem is, how would I get a doctor to even prescribe it? I'm not trans and if you look at my case from an objective point of view, the entire reason for this wish is vanity. And what doctor would give you medications to keep you looking young(er) and childish(er) (thus more feminine) only because you go up to him and say: Hey, I wanna keep looking like 21 forever.
The only thing I'd get is a one way ticket to psych.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 07, 2014, 04:24:09 PM
@Jamie D: Yes that's pretty much the goal. I"m not really looking for further feminization, like I said I look quiet androgynous as I am, but I'm worried that things will change once I pass 25. (Jaw getting wider, chin and orbital rim more prominent etc.)
I wouldn't mind a little bit of feminization though, if Estrogen were to become the most prominent hormone in my body. It's just that I don't have the wish for cleavage nor do I want to become impotent (!) or start Viagra at the tender age of 30.
However the problem is, WHICH Antiandrogen would be advisable? Spiro is out of the question I think, seeing as it does cause permanent impotence after a certain while.
The other (bigger) problem is, how would I get a doctor to even prescribe it? I'm not trans and if you look at my case from an objective point of view, the entire reason for this wish is vanity. And what doctor would give you medications to keep you looking young(er) and childish(er) (thus more feminine) only because you go up to him and say: Hey, I wanna keep looking like 21 forever.
The only thing I'd get is a one way ticket to psych.
Unfortunately sterility is a side-effect from taking AA's for a longer period. So it doesn't really matter which blocker you take, they'll all cause sterility sooner or later. To get a prescription you have to be honest and explain how you feel about your body and yourself.
Sterility wouldn't bother me, I don't want kids anyway. But the inabilty to get it up would definitely be an issue.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 07, 2014, 04:45:04 PM
Sterility wouldn't bother me, I don't want kids anyway. But the inabilty to get it up would definitely be an issue.
Then I don't think that there are any problems with Spiro. People taking Spiro are still able to function sexually, although they do tend to have to get a "warm-up" before.
I'm no expert on this since I've never had sex nor do I want to. And I'm just starting my identity-journey towards wherever it might be.
Alright, if I would still be able to get it up without meds I'd be cool with that. Don't really mind if I would have to to be gotten in the mood beforehand, not a big fan of the morningwood anyway...
But your tip is basically: go to your doctor and tell him this?
Oh and by the way: As far as the starving goes, of course it's not healthy to starve yourself in it's very own right. However it DOES counteract testosterone production and since your body needs energy to age and change, you would be depriving your body from that energy and therefore stay more childlike. There are actually a lot of anorexics who become anorexics not because they want to be thin or fulfill any media boosted ideal of what you should look like. They become anorexics because they are desperately clinging to their childhoods and therefore want to prevent their body from becoming that of a grownup. This is fact.
As far as the unhealthiness goes, yeah sure, that's true. It's never healthy to starve yourself. You feel hungry for a reason. ;-)
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 07, 2014, 04:24:09 PM
@Jamie D: Yes that's pretty much the goal. I"m not really looking for further feminization, like I said I look quiet androgynous as I am, but I'm worried that things will change once I pass 25. (Jaw getting wider, chin and orbital rim more prominent etc.)
I wouldn't mind a little bit of feminization though, if Estrogen were to become the most prominent hormone in my body. It's just that I don't have the wish for cleavage nor do I want to become impotent (!) or start Viagra at the tender age of 30.
However the problem is, WHICH Antiandrogen would be advisable? Spiro is out of the question I think, seeing as it does cause permanent impotence after a certain while.
The other (bigger) problem is, how would I get a doctor to even prescribe it? I'm not trans and if you look at my case from an objective point of view, the entire reason for this wish is vanity. And what doctor would give you medications to keep you looking young(er) and childish(er) (thus more feminine) only because you go up to him and say: Hey, I wanna keep looking like 21 forever.
The only thing I'd get is a one way ticket to psych.
I don't think anyone would think wanting to retain a youthful appearance is odd. After all, cosmetics are a multi-billion dollar industry!
Androgyny actually is part of the trans* spectrum. So, if you identify as androgynous, even as a femme guy, there is reason to believe you fit in there somewhere.
In a sense, you are looking for the fountain of youth. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. ;)
But Father Time and Mother Nature have a way of stealing our youth and aging us. I know, at 21 years old, you don't want to hear that. Short of anti-androgens, and lots and lots of moisturizing, I'm not sure how you can hold on to your 20-year old appearance.
@Bubblegum hello....i'm almost at the same situation as you,but still i don't care about having sex or not. Good thing is that the last couple of years i look more feminine than before,but unlike you i need to put a lot of effort to achieve it....because i have so many damn body hair and my facial hair grow rapidly and i really hate it.
Fortunately they've been slowed down a little bit because i had some waxing sessions with photolysis (laser is expensive :() for 2 years but yet they are still visible with naked eyes if i let them to grow for about 10 days (body hair)
I really don't care if i'll be sexualy active,i just want to have NO body/facial hair....so that's why i want to go for AA or estrogens. :)
@Jamie
Yeah, you got a point. Without these AAs I'm definitely not gonna be able to stick to this appearance. Although my family always has done a remarkable job at keeping their youthful looks well into their 30s. But I'm not willing to take my chances with that. However, why would my doc just give me access to this 'fountain of youth'? I mean, the only people who get prescriptions are menopausal women and MtF Trans people right? Or do you think I'd have a chance if I would just tell my doc exactly what I've told all of you in this topic?
@georges
I feel for you, however let me assure you, I have facial and body hair too and must shave almost daily to keep my skin smoothly. I'm just lucky they're blonde, so even if I don't shave for a day, you won't notice much of a difference. However, I'm looking into hair removal with a laser myself.
Oh yeah, anybody got any thought on the boobs? Do ALL AAs have this side effect?
I am not entirely sure of where your general location is, and which health services/plans you have access to.
In the US, ans some other places, the "informed consent" model is becoming increasingly popular. Unfortunately, in some other countries, you have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get treatment, like a circus dog.
here is an increasing body of knowledge concerning the use of anti-androgens and ultra low dose hormones in non-binary MAAB individuals.
One of the most knowledgeable folks on the site for this issue is "Ativan."
As I said, you won't stop aging if you are on AA's. There is no cure for that, even how much we all want it. The only things we can do are to try and live as healthy as we can and maybe add 5-10 years to our lives. If you want to look young forever there aren't anything to do except having surgery.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 08, 2014, 07:19:00 PM
@georges
I feel for you, however let me assure you, I have facial and body hair too and must shave almost daily to keep my skin smoothly. I'm just lucky they're blonde, so even if I don't shave for a day, you won't notice much of a difference. However, I'm looking into hair removal with a laser myself.
Oh yeah, anybody got any thought on the boobs? Do ALL AAs have this side effect?
Me too,i have a shave every 2 days in my face,and that's really annoying.
Because the bad thing with me is that i get cut very easily...my facial hair are rough,so i use to put a lot of strength while shaving....i wish to DESTROY them -i really mean the word "Destroy"- or at least mellow them,so they won't be that hard and get cut so easy
btw,a lot of people i know suggested me to stop shaving so often in order to avoid cuttin,but i really HATE beard as hell so having a shave even if i get cut is my only option :'(
Quote from: georges on March 09, 2014, 07:43:53 AM
Me too,i have a shave every 2 days in my face,and that's really annoying.
Because the bad thing with me is that i get cut very easily...my facial hair are rough,so i use to put a lot of strength while shaving....i wish to DESTROY them -i really mean the word "Destroy"- or at least mellow them,so they won't be that hard and get cut so easy
btw,a lot of people i know suggested me to stop shaving so often in order to avoid cuttin,but i really HATE beard as hell so having a shave even if i get cut is my only option :'(
If it's hair removal you want I'd suggest laser or electrolysis. There aren't any other ways to make the removal permanent.
Quote from: 930310 on March 09, 2014, 08:47:18 AM
If it's hair removal you want I'd suggest laser or electrolysis. There aren't any other ways to make the removal permanent.
What about AA?
As i said above i had some sessions with photolysis,because laser is expensive... :-\
Quote from: georges on March 09, 2014, 09:12:03 AM
What about AA?
As i said above i had some sessions with photolysis,because laser is expensive... :-\
They won't stop your hair growth. They may slow down the growth speed, but otherwise they won't do much good.
Quote from: 930310 on March 09, 2014, 09:46:46 AM
They won't stop your hair growth. They may slow down the growth speed, but otherwise they won't do much good.
huh...but i heard some people here saying they had quite good results
Quote from: Jamie D on March 09, 2014, 12:26:59 AM
I am not entirely sure of where your general location is, and which health services/plans you have access to.
In the US, ans some other places, the "informed consent" model is becoming increasingly popular. Unfortunately, in some other countries, you have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get treatment, like a circus dog.
here is an increasing body of knowledge concerning the use of anti-androgens and ultra low dose hormones in non-binary MAAB individuals.
One of the most knowledgeable folks on the site for this issue is "Ativan."
Like I said, I'm in Holland now. Don't know how it is here. Google didn't really spit out anything aside from the MtF transgender people
Initially when I began transition my intention was to go all the way and have SRS, but for loads of reasons I didn't follow through and opted for androgyny and frankly it works for me. I used Spironolactone for several years but eventually opted for an orchiectomy back in 2001. Later though i had something of an emotional meltdown not due to transitioning but over war related PTSD issues, and during that time I de-transitioned for two years. Not having any hormonal base turned me into a very sick person and was even affecting my thyroid adversely, so still not dealing with MtF transition I opted for injectable testosterone which lasted for one month, I hated the effects so much that I quit and went back on a feminizing HRT regimen. I'm married and going on 71 years old, and still enjoy normal male/female sex with my spouse which is more than most my age can say. You might say, well how can this be? I use a tiny amount of T cream under where my prostate is .02ml several times a week and it keeps erectile tissues functional without interfering with the effects of the feminizing hrt. I might add that the female HRT has kept me a lot more youthful looking than would otherwise be the case. Never say never, hope this is helpful!
Quote from: georges on March 09, 2014, 10:21:29 AM
huh...but i heard some people here saying they had quite good results
Who said that they got rid of their facial hair by just taking Antiandrogens?
It won't happen, you might get some reduced growth and they may get a bit thinner. Otherwise there isn't anything AA's kan do for you there.
The anti-androgen bicalutimide (Casodex) has anti-hirsutic properties as well. My six months on that medication practically eliminated by leg hair and diminished my torso hair. Beard growth slowed; however, the beard has returned in the past two years. Leg hair is permanently reduced, as is torso hair.
Quote from: Jamie D on March 09, 2014, 02:55:16 PM
The anti-androgen bicalutimide (Casodex) has anti-hirsutic properties as well. My six months on that medication practically eliminated by leg hair and diminished my torso hair. Beard growth slowed; however, the beard has returned in the past two years. Leg hair is permanently reduced, as is torso hair.
Did you notice that the thickness if your beard changed too?
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 09, 2014, 10:40:42 AM
Like I said, I'm in Holland now. Don't know how it is here. Google didn't really spit out anything aside from the MtF transgender people
I'm from the same country. We don't have the informed consent model here. And there's no ''try out first'' when it comes to hormones.. you need to be absolutely sure.
I don't want to give up your hopes but I really doubt you will be given AA in this country because you wish to keep an androgynous look. :(
That's what I was afraid of. The entire health care system just sucks. It's not like I'm asking for clonazepam or any addictive crap.
But basically you're saying without being a MtF trans person (and psychologist approved) you don't stand a chance?
Quote from: 930310 on March 09, 2014, 03:03:29 PM
Did you notice that the thickness if your beard changed too?
Mine was always thin and patchy anyway. I noticed that the rate of growth changed on bicalutimide, and for some time after stopping the medication.
New alternative treatment in hirsutism: bicalutamide 25 mg/day (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11915584)
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 09, 2014, 05:42:18 PM
That's what I was afraid of. The entire health care system just sucks. It's not like I'm asking for clonazepam or any addictive crap.
But basically you're saying without being a MtF trans person (and psychologist approved) you don't stand a chance?
It's the major downside of our health care system.. the choices are made for you.
Of course there would be risks involved if you went on AA, like your fear of decreased libido. But risks be damned.. we're adults. Freedom over security.
I can't say for sure but yes, I think you need to be TS to get the hormones. There may be other ways to get AA.. I dunno.
Quote from: Jamie D on March 09, 2014, 02:55:16 PM
The anti-androgen bicalutimide (Casodex) has anti-hirsutic properties as well. My six months on that medication practically eliminated by leg hair and diminished my torso hair. Beard growth slowed; however, the beard has returned in the past two years. Leg hair is permanently reduced, as is torso hair.
Really? That's great..6 months isn't such a big period for such great results.
Quote from: Feather on March 09, 2014, 04:27:16 PM
I'm from the same country. We don't have the informed consent model here. And there's no ''try out first'' when it comes to hormones.. you need to be absolutely sure.
I don't want to give up your hopes but I really doubt you will be given AA in this country because you wish to keep an androgynous look. :(
Then how about telling that you are afraid of hair loss?
Quote from: georges on March 09, 2014, 09:55:05 PM
Really? That's great..6 months isn't such a big period for such great results.
Then how about telling that you are afraid of hair loss?
Wouldn't work in my case. My family (both sides) have great hair from birth to death. And btw my doctor is a douche. Every single time I go to him, even with infections the first thing he tells me is to wait a few days before he (reluctantly) writes a prescription for meds. DAMN IT!
Quote from: georges on March 09, 2014, 09:55:05 PM
Really? That's great..6 months isn't such a big period for such great results.
Yeah, I had a bit of a hair problem (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fe%2Fed%2FFedor_Jeftichew_portrait.jpg&hash=6cc52430c9b9b9be1307d384e4c174d70be525dc) ;)
Quote from: Jamie D on March 10, 2014, 01:01:33 AM
Yeah, I had a bit of a hair problem (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fe%2Fed%2FFedor_Jeftichew_portrait.jpg&hash=6cc52430c9b9b9be1307d384e4c174d70be525dc) ;)
When I look in the mirror I see something closely resmbling him.
I hate facial hair.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 10, 2014, 12:54:31 AM
Wouldn't work in my case. My family (both sides) have great hair from birth to death. And btw my doctor is a douche. Every single time I go to him, even with infections the first thing he tells me is to wait a few days before he (reluctantly) writes a prescription for meds. DAMN IT!
I have similar experiences with doctors. You have to push them really hard and exaggerate to get what you want.
damn....i've got a meeting today and i'm afraid that she won't let me get a prescription,because there isn't any "serious" (sic) reason to get one.
the worse thing i'm afraid of is,that she'd suggest to meet a psychologist to discuss my "problem" instead of giving me a prescription...hope i'll be wrong :-\
Quote from: georges on March 10, 2014, 06:07:37 AM
damn....i've got a meeting today and i'm afraid that she won't let me get a prescription,because there isn't any "serious" (sic) reason to get one.
the worse thing i'm afraid of is,that she'd suggest to meet a psychologist to discuss my "problem" instead of giving me a prescription...hope i'll be wrong :-\
I completely understand. That's one of my biggest concerns too. It's just not possible that you are the way you are and being cool with that, no, there has to be something 'wrong' with you... >:( And the whole therapy crap... once you're in, you're in. It's like saying the phrase: "I'm not crazy." Because after saying that, there's no way in hell anyone who heard you say it is gonna think of you as a sane person ever again.
Well there are other ways to go if you want hormones, dealers, websites and so. They aren't legal in most countries, but I don't know if it applies to where you live. It is not something that I do recommend.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 10, 2014, 06:24:49 AM
I completely understand. That's one of my biggest concerns too. It's just not possible that you are the way you are and being cool with that, no, there has to be something 'wrong' with you... >:( And the whole therapy crap... once you're in, you're in. It's like saying the phrase: "I'm not crazy." Because after saying that, there's no way in hell anyone who heard you say it is gonna think of you as a sane person ever again.
It seems that things worked pretty good in yesterday's meeting. She didn't mind if i took hormones,because i told her,that i get sick with myself having body/facial hair and i'm afraid of hair loss,and most of all IT WASN'T MY FAULT. ;)
(that's the most annoying thing really...if it was your fault ok,then the only one to blame is yourself...but those damn genetics can be a real curse sometimes!)
Anyway,she suggested me to have some medical tests to see if everything is ok to proceed....i've got to be patient though :)
good luck to your own case too ;)
Quote from: georges on March 11, 2014, 07:20:05 AM
It seems that things worked pretty good in yesterday's meeting. She didn't mind if i took hormones,because i told her,that i get sick with myself having body/facial hair and i'm afraid of hair loss,and most of all IT WASN'T MY FAULT. ;)
(that's the most annoying thing really...if it was your fault ok,then the only one to blame is yourself...but those damn genetics can be a real curse sometimes!)
Anyway,she suggested me to have some medical tests to see if everything is ok to proceed....i've got to be patient though :)
good luck to your own case too ;)
In which country do you live..?
Quote from: 930310 on March 10, 2014, 12:01:39 PM
Well there are other ways to go if you want hormones, dealers, websites and so. They aren't legal in most countries, but I don't know if it applies to where you live. It is not something that I do recommend.
Yes that is true and though we don't discuss it here or want to lead anyone to inadvertently harm themselves using hormones without medical supervision, I know that many here do self medicate when they finally come to the end of their dysphoric rope and consider that it's their life and they don't need to wait on someone or some governing body or insurance provider to tell them how or when they can live it.
Let me be responsible and add that I self medicated at one time without medical supervision and gave myself a potentially life threatening case of deep vein thrombosis, it was a very scary situation and took the better part of a year to recover and had I not acted quickly I probably wouldn't be here to tell about it.
Quote from: Feather on March 11, 2014, 09:27:16 AM
In which country do you live..?
I live in Greece,why?
Mediterranean people tend to be hairy unfortunately :(
@Shantel: Thank you for writing about the 'dark side' of self medication. Imo there are a lot of downsides to the 'illegal' medication. I'd be really worried if the stuff I got is the real thing or not and mostly that my progress wouldn't be monitored by any medical pros. So I'm VERY reluctant to self medication.
@georges: I'm glad that things worked out for you so well. Wish my doc was as understanding as yours. But mine would probably dismiss my woes and send me home. That miserable sob...
Quote from: Shantel on March 11, 2014, 09:34:51 AM
Yes that is true and though we don't discuss it here or want to lead anyone to inadvertently harm themselves using hormones without medical supervision, I know that many here do self medicate when they finally come to the end of their dysphoric rope and consider that it's their life and they don't need to wait on someone or some governing body or insurance provider to tell them how or when they can live it.
Let me be responsible and add that I self medicated at one time without medical supervision and gave myself a potentially life threatening case of deep vein thrombosis, it was a very scary situation and took the better part of a year to recover and had I not acted quickly I probably wouldn't be here to tell about it.
Thanks for expanding on my post.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 11, 2014, 10:17:55 AM
@georges: I'm glad that things worked out for you so well. Wish my doc was as understanding as yours. But mine would probably dismiss my woes and send me home. That miserable sob...
I don't know your doc,but the only thing i've got to say is don't act desperate,being calm at your doctor might benefit you,even if you feel badly deep inside :)
Yeah, I'm not a desperate person. Overall I'm very calm and collected. However, I don't think that anything would get me anywhere with him. Ever since he found out that I 'lied' to him about my drug use in the past, he's been very suspicious of me. For God's sake, I smoked pot a couple of months, so what?!?
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 11, 2014, 10:34:48 AM
Yeah, I'm not a desperate person. Overall I'm very calm and collected. However, I don't think that anything would get me anywhere with him. Ever since he found out that I 'lied' to him about my drug use in the past, he's been very suspicious of me. For God's sake, I smoked pot a couple of months, so what?!?
"One small lie can easily hide many bigger ones."
At least that's how I believe he's reasoning.
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 11, 2014, 10:34:48 AM
Yeah, I'm not a desperate person. Overall I'm very calm and collected. However, I don't think that anything would get me anywhere with him. Ever since he found out that I 'lied' to him about my drug use in the past, he's been very suspicious of me. For God's sake, I smoked pot a couple of months, so what?!?
Then why don't you go to another doctor? ???
I'm probably butting in on a conversation over something that's already been resolved but I'll just say that starving is not worth it. And if the body is born male I don't think it's make you look more adrogynous or younger. to starve enough to make a difference, you just end up looking sick. And you might actually start growing hair not loosing it. And the cost is very, very high.
been there, done that, it's not worth it.
Quote from: tomboy on March 15, 2014, 10:16:19 PM
I'm probably butting in on a conversation over something that's already been resolved but I'll just say that starving is not worth it. And if the body is born male I don't think it's make you look more adrogynous or younger. to starve enough to make a difference, you just end up looking sick. And you might actually start growing hair not loosing it. And the cost is very, very high.
been there, done that, it's not worth it.
I totally agree with you.
Hi Bubblegum,
A few tidbits for you:
1. Male craniofacial growth can continue to the age of 21 to 25. Aside from that, some of the facial differences are due to fat distribution.
2. A careful diet relatively low on protein along with a good cardio exercise regimen will minimise increase in build.
3. Low dose HRT may help achieve your aims. There will be the risk of infertility and impotence, but cessation of medication during the early stages usually will reverse it.
4. Getting rid of the beard permanently will help.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: luna nyan on March 19, 2014, 08:31:31 AM
Hi Bubblegum,
A few tidbits for you:
1. Male craniofacial growth can continue to the age of 21 to 25. Aside from that, some of the facial differences are due to fat distribution.
2. A careful diet relatively low on protein along with a good cardio exercise regimen will minimise increase in build.
3. Low dose HRT may help achieve your aims. There will be the risk of infertility and impotence, but cessation of medication during the early stages usually will reverse it.
4. Getting rid of the beard permanently will help.
Hope that helps.
Those are great advice!
Thank you for sharing them in such an easy to understand-way.
If I could do hormone transition without becoming impotent I would so do it.. That would just be.. perfect.
Quote from: Feather on March 19, 2014, 09:18:54 AM
If I could do hormone transition without becoming impotent I would so do it.. That would just be.. perfect.
A very low-dose HRT might work. Speak with an endocrinologist to be sure though.
Quote from: Feather on March 19, 2014, 09:18:54 AM
If I could do hormone transition without becoming impotent I would so do it.. That would just be.. perfect.
It's possible to have a sort of androgynous hormone mix. I've been on low dose for 2 years now and things still work downstairs, although I'm likely to be infertile by now. My E levels are low for female, and my T levels are low for male.
I have a post somewhere on my low dose experience which you might find helpful.
Quote from: luna nyan on March 20, 2014, 05:08:03 AM
It's possible to have a sort of androgynous hormone mix. I've been on low dose for 2 years now and things still work downstairs, although I'm likely to be infertile by now. My E levels are low for female, and my T levels are low for male.
I have a post somewhere on my low dose experience which you might find helpful.
Isn't it dangerous to be low in both male and female hormones? We need hormones to function properly and being low in both male and female hormones doesn't sound very healthy.
Quote from: 930310 on March 20, 2014, 08:02:24 AM
Isn't it dangerous to be low in both male and female hormones? We need hormones to function properly and being low in both male and female hormones doesn't sound very healthy.
Not really, I'm on full feminizing HRT and use a small amount of T cream to maintain libido just as many mature genetic females do that want to maintain their sexual interest and drive.
Quote from: Shantel on March 20, 2014, 09:22:59 AM
Not really, I'm on full feminizing HRT and use a small amount of T cream to maintain libido just as many mature genetic females do that want to maintain their sexual interest and drive.
Yes, but you are on full feminizing HRT. Luna is low in both male and female levels.
I'm in a similar boat of identifying as neither male nor female and wanting to stay androgynous looking. In my case, I've always had below normal male testosterone, which seems to have continued falling as I got older until a point came a few years ago where I developed most of the symptoms of acute hypogonadism. I had absolutely no joy getting treatment on the NHS (something that seems to be a very common experience among hypogonadal males), and so I've ended up self medicating, using a combination of fertility drugs and womens HRT bioidentical hormone creams. It's certainly made me feel a lot better than I was, but I don't know whether that approach would be what you're looking for - it seems to be making me more male and more female at the same time, if you get my drift. I'm using half the dose of womens HRT progesterone cream along with small amounts of estriol cream, as a way of getting the psychological effects of female hormones without much in the way of feminising effects. I'm also taking a fertility drug called HCG to keep my testicles doing their thing.
Quote from: 930310 on March 20, 2014, 08:02:24 AM
Isn't it dangerous to be low in both male and female hormones? We need hormones to function properly and being low in both male and female hormones doesn't sound very healthy.
There is a range of values for both T and E. My levels are on the low acceptable side of both. Yes, if you have no gonadal hormones then your risk of osteo becomes high.
In spite of low dose, I have experienced some degree of feminisation. I really should get round to updating my low dose thread, it's been 6 months since the last update.
My dosages are half the minimum usually given for transition, for reference.
I'm at a happy place right now.
The ratios of your hormones is important, along with being in an acceptable range.
They do serve a purpose and need to be in those ranges or close.
You also have to help your Dr define just what ranges you're looking for.
It depends on what you're doing, sometimes they can adjust what is the right range for you.
Ranges are based on normal averages and we are not average.
I took my low dose to full dose levels, didn't find any benefit for myself, but I was looking to lessen the dysphoria.
Cutting back by halves until I was back at the original low dose was OK, but I halved them again and found they worked just fine for what I wanted.
I have made further refinements over time. I can pretty much decide if I want or need an little more or less of this and that.
But it took a long time to get used to doing this and I certainly don't recommend anyone to do that.
It may be because I am on such a low dose that a little goes a long ways.
This being said, there is no standard low dose, it is what works for you. If a lower dose works, use it.
You have less unwanted side effects and you can maintain the ranges you should have easily this way.
But it will take a few months of trial and error to achieve this. But that's better than just going along with whatever they give you.
It's always up to you to define what dose of not only hormones and blockers are right, it's this way with most meds.
Doctors can only give you what is considered the average dose needed for anything.
It's your input that allows them to adjust them to fit you.
Less unwanted side effects if you take the minimum amount that you're comfortable with.
Ativan
Im guessing low level T blockers or something similar to Puberty blockers might be the answer or maybe estrogen without blocking T would work you will probably need to talk to a doc who specializes in trans health or an endocrinologist (hormone specialist) to get the right information for you. Good luck.
I agree with you Kinkly. You should always consult an expert on this kind of medicine. I wouldn't want to just get a cardiac arrest or so just because I OD'd or LD'd.
I'm going to see my Dr today to discuss how the changes we have made and the ones I'm allowed to make.
I wouldn't be able to do this without the expertise of my Dr.
To try and do it on your own is a fools errand. There are far to many things that can and do go wrong.
You're basically using drugs that were designed for something else and are using the side effects from them.
If you think you can figure it out better than they can, you can have an honorary degree in hormone treatment.
Not likely to happen. But they can only work with you if they know what is going on and the only way they will know is if you tell them.
They will work with you. If they don't, move on to one who will. They are priceless in helping you to stay healthy.
The more you help them, the more they can help you. It's simple enough.
Anything else is a complicated mess of misinformation that will effect your body in ways you don't want.
They are there to make sure you are going to be able to stay healthy. Use them. They like that kind of stuff.
It's one of the reasons they became Drs in the first place.
Ativan
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on April 03, 2014, 10:41:17 AM
I'm going to see my Dr today to discuss how the changes we have made and the ones I'm allowed to make.
I wouldn't be able to do this without the expertise of my Dr.
To try and do it on your own is a fools errand. There are far to many things that can and do go wrong.
You're basically using drugs that were designed for something else and are using the side effects from them.
If you think you can figure it out better than they can, you can have an honorary degree in hormone treatment.
Not likely to happen. But they can only work with you if they know what is going on and the only way they will know is if you tell them.
They will work with you. If they don't, move on to one who will. They are priceless in helping you to stay healthy.
The more you help them, the more they can help you. It's simple enough.
Anything else is a complicated mess of misinformation that will effect your body in ways you don't want.
They are there to make sure you are going to be able to stay healthy. Use them. They like that kind of stuff.
It's one of the reasons they became Drs in the first place.
Ativan
Believe me, I can attest to this from personal experience!
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on April 03, 2014, 10:41:17 AM
They are there to make sure you are going to be able to stay healthy. Use them. They like that kind of stuff.
It's one of the reasons they became Drs in the first place.
If only everyone saw things this way. Too often I watch people go counter to good sound advice and basing their treatment decisions on hearsay and mob hysteria. A health care worker who has passion for their job will only have your best interests at heart.
Just a quick follow up to my visit to my Dr who takes care of my HRT treatments.
We spent fifteen minutes discussing options and how my life is going all the while she was giving me a routine checkup.
And a routine checkup with her is looking for any adverse effects that I might be having, it's pretty thorough in itself, these checkups.
We discussed what blood work she is interested in seeing, sometime over the next few months before I see her again.
We spent more than enough time discussing what options, yes options, of what I could do if I so desire.
I did indeed change one thing, I upped one of my meds. I could have gone farther in upping the dose, but chose, I chose, to up it only to what I feel comfortable in doing.
It was a simple straight forward conversation, in between talks about my general well being, and what medical things that have happened since I last saw her.
One of which was the story of what it took to get a simple prescription for a bacterial infection in my lungs.
It led to being in the ER under the assumption I was possibly having a heart attack.
Turns out I'm healthier than I was a few years ago when they ran similar tests...
This lead her to ask if she could access the records from the blood-work they did then.
As it turns out, it's also valuable information for her as to my over all condition, which is in remarkably good cardiac condition.
So, you see, it's as easy as just sitting down and talking about what is going on and about what options, and there are a lot, of what I, me, myself, would like to use.
She's there to make sure she knows what is going on to be able to give me those options and still be able to remain as healthy as I am.
And I am healthier, thanks to her suggestions as to what I needed to do over the last few years of using HRT.
How hard is that to do?
I also let a student join in, as she really wants to learn more about people like me.
So she can keep us healthy, people like me, in the future.
I made her ask the tough questions, and told her why she is going to be so valuable to people like me when she takes her turn at helping us.
It was great fun for me, as well as my Dr and the student.
It's a simple thing to do, just talk to your Dr, they are there to keep you healthy.
They are not the gatekeepers, unless you start to lie to them, then of course they can't help you and they are the gatekeepers you are so determined to make them out to be.
They're not.
The gatekeepers are the politicians and religious groups that want to play DR at your expense.
There isn't a better time in history than right now to trust and work with a good DR when it comes to your Trans health.
It can only get better by talking to them and following their suggestions for you.
They understand that each person is different and their needs are going to be different.
How hard is it to help them to help you?
Maybe that wasn't so quick, but that's the point.
You need to be thorough in your quest to be who you want to be.
Anything else is nothing more than conspiracy theories about the evil Drs that are none existent.
Except for those ones who work out of the trunk of their cars or in their homes and back alleys.
Find a good Dr, it may take some time, it may take a few more miles, but anyone else is doing nothing for you but risking your life on BS information.
Soon to be leaving these pages,
Ativan
Apart from a low dosage of Spironactalone.
The most effective way is cosmetic surgery, and increasing your makeup skill.
E.g. Pete Burns age 45-something? No hormones, plus I think he had a body building phase, and opted for pectoral implants rather than breast implants.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thirdage.com%2Ffiles%2Foriginals%2Fpete-burns.jpg&hash=15e1eda5bbd59d44a0a94a84914772191f0db745)
Quote from: Bubblegum on March 11, 2014, 10:17:55 AM
@georges: I'm glad that things worked out for you so well. Wish my doc was as understanding as yours. But mine would probably dismiss my woes and send me home. That miserable sob...
Ultimately....nope. I didn't go for hormones. I was hiding that from my mother till she found it out. She shouted at me for doing such a thing,because she was scared that i might had a high-risk of cardiac arrest or such a thing.
Good news though are,that i've been practicing lately, to shave correctly in order to avoid cuts....
Anyway...i'm gonna keep on waxing....and hope one day i'll have no body hair...it doesn't matter the method,but i want to feel good with my body and not avoid to check myself in the mirror when i'm shirltless....imagine that because i don't have every day the time to shave my body i tend to wear shirts tied up to the neck,even in hot weather, so i will feel more comfortable when i'm outside :embarrassed:
Quote from: Caysee Danielle on March 04, 2014, 11:55:14 AM
Anti androgens, low dose estrogen, possibly breast tissue removal if necessary. That's my best guess. I certainly haven't come across anything. I have the same goal as far as body type and face, but might just compromise and get the boobs if they're part of the package
Caysee
Yes to all of the above plus FFS and hair removal. Low dose hrt certainly works. I am told that I look 15 years younger than my age (56). The breast tissue does come back after removal if you continue to use hrt. Breast tissue removal resulted in the loss of some nipple sensivity (not a good thing) but it does appear to be recovering. As Ativan has recommended, find a good endo and work with them to tailor the medication to achieve your desired result (physical and emotional). The additional benefit of low dose hrt is that it facilitated a slower/longer adolescence which allowed me a slower transition which sensitised me to, and attracted me to, the possibility and reality of a GQ identity. At this stage (after nearly 3 yrs of low dose hrt) I am in a very good place, a place which I would not have found without informed consent and a supportive endocrinologist
Aisla