Thundra:
Thank you for your support, and I agree with you.
They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.But, I must ask who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out?
[/b]
In recent history in the United States, we sexual sterilized and forbidded the mentally retarded to marry and have children. JFK's sister, Rose Kennedy, met this fate. Up to the 1970s the laws of the in land in America allowed the forced, involuntary psychiatric reprogramming (Reparative Therapy) of homosexuals that were legally defined as mentally ill. This issue of inappropriate candidates harkens back to the philosophy of Eugenics and a master race of people.
Godiva
Quote from: Godiva on July 17, 2007, 06:23:49 AM
Thundra:
Thank you for your support, and I agree with you.
They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.
Blanket statements such as this do a disservice to the many reputable surgeons who follow
ethical practices. Granted there are those who would do anything you wanted to your body as long as you produced the appropriate funds, and I would personally steer clear of them. Then there are patients who are fool hardy enough to want to buy their way into getting any surgeries they desired, and the surgeons should steer clear of these people. And I am not so naive as to think there are not any surgeons out there who are in this game just for the money, hey of course its for the money, but there are surgeons who want to be sure that the person sitting before them, who they have probably never seen before, is dead certain about what is going to be done to them, otherwise the patient may simply end up dead later, after the surgery.
Of course surgeons need to to "cover their ass", I know that I would want to ensure that everything was OK if I were a surgeon and a patient presented them self to me asking me to perform life changing surgery. I think they call that common sense.
Quote
But, I must ask who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out?
[/b]
In recent history in the United States, we sexual sterilized and forbidded the mentally retarded to marry and have children. JFK's sister, Rose Kennedy, met this fate. Up to the 1970s the laws of the in land in America allowed the forced, involuntary psychiatric reprogramming (Reparative Therapy) of homosexuals that were legally defined as mentally ill. This issue of inappropriate candidates harkens back to the philosophy of Eugenics and a master race of people.
Godiva
Lets see now.... I walk into the therapists office sit down and say "I've had it with living as a guy, I want to try the female gig out for a while, maybe I'll make a better go of it, after all when I dress up I really look like a girl and everyone tells me that I'm pretty good looking as well. I've always had this fetish about dressing up in girls cloths and it's a real sexual turn on for me. Money is no object I have a huge bank account all I need is a referral letter, get started on HRT so that I can grow breasts and I'll be outta here"....
Eugenics and the master race, I think there's paranoia in the air, but possibly I'm being a little cynical :)
Steph
Steph:
I think there's paranoia in the air, but possibly I'm being a little cynical
Steph
I believe this response, in regards to me as an individual, to my very legitimate question by you as a Moderator and/or Administrator of this website has failed to demonstrate moderation. My purposes are to create a dialogue on important issues to the transsexual community, nothing esle. Please try not to make your responses to what I say or ask personal issues. Thank you.
Godiva
I agree with Steph.
I think it is judgmental and divisive of us to even consider identifying any group of people who should be excluded from the HBSC. None of us are experts and none of us have a right to say who and who should not be eligible for treatment.
If we did we can then exclude anyone who is to tall, to small, has the wrong colour skin, disabled, on benefits, going to take 10 years, is married, that would be great ..leaving only those who can afford to transition because they are rich.
This is best left to the Physchiatrists, therapists and Medical professionals.
Buffy
Quote from: Godiva on July 17, 2007, 08:00:19 AM
Steph:
I think there's paranoia in the air, but possibly I'm being a little cynical
Steph
I believe this response, in regards to me as an individual, to my very legitimate question by you as a Moderator and/or Administrator of this website has failed to demonstrate moderation. My purposes are to create a dialogue on important issues to the transsexual community, nothing esle. Please try not to make your responses to what I say or ask personal issues. Thank you.
Godiva
My response was not directed at you in anyway, nor was it and attack, I merely suggest that using the words eugenics and master race is a little strong.
Steph
If we pay for the surgery ourselves why should a letter be required?
There are lots of ways one can do harm to oneself. The definition of a "responsible" adult includes taking responsiblity for actions. Thus if someone wants SRS and are paying for it, it is their business and there should be none of this psych nonsense.
Quote from: taru on July 17, 2007, 12:05:59 PM
If we pay for the surgery ourselves why should a letter be required?
There are lots of ways one can do harm to oneself. The definition of a "responsible" adult includes taking responsiblity for actions. Thus if someone wants SRS and are paying for it, it is their business and there should be none of this psych nonsense.
Before long, you'd have individuals lining up suing the doctor for performing the surgery. It is only prudent for a surgeon to rely on peers qualifying the patient's need for surgery.
The SOC also lends some credibility for us as we transition in society. We can point to an established methodology and process which helps our employers and others understand what we are doing. I will always encourage someone to start with a good and qualified counselor.
Now, that being said, if you don't want to join that club, it matters not to me. We have our own lives to live and who better knows how we want to live them? We must suffer the consequences of our own actions no matter what we do. I believe that we are ultimately responsible for our own lives.
For what it is worth, I've never met a qualified counselor that would tell a patient what to do. A patient needs to make her own decisions and follow through.
I have to smile when I read of "gatekeepers in the transsexual community". There is no "transsexual community" much less "gatekeepers". I know that there are those who stand up for us. But when was the last time you saw a "transsexual pride parade"? Where are the old timers? (Okay, I'm here, but there are very few who remain.) There is no community.
There is no one standing in the way when you are considering life's decisions. As long as you remain within the law, there will be those who may deride, but you are free to follow your own path.
Party on.
Cindi
QuoteThey are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.
I totally disagree with this statement. While it is true that the HBSOC are there to protect the medical community from those "transsexual" people who later on may sue for malpractice, they are also there to ensure that a person who truly suffers from gender dysphoria get the necessary steps/guidance to begin and complete transition.
Hmmm...I have never met anyone who "purchased" their way through the HBSOC. Why would anyone in their right mind do such a thing in the first place? If a person says he/she suffers from unrelenting GID, following the guidelines of the HBSOC should be a walk in the park, shouldn't it? why would this person need to bribe a gender therapist for a letter or access to treatment?
QuoteI think there's paranoia in the air
Paranoia, lack of information, ignorance. People who don't meet any of the criteria for GID/TS'im but want to circumvent the system for whatever reasons and then have the audacity to sue the medical community when things are not as "pretty" as they thought they would be. Does anyone see now why doctors/therapists/the medical community have to "cover their asses"?
tink :icon_chick:
Why was Michael Jackson allowed to do this, with no letter?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michael-jackson.com%2Fmj2002.jpg&hash=02f57e45022bdaa44f9949258c6ff6e51e9026b1)
Why is it assumed that anyone can make their own decision about what is best for them, except when it comes to SRS? I have seen botched botox, botched tummy tucks, botched breast augmentation, botched face lifts and other botched plastic surgeries that have left people incredibly disfigured. We have kids getting plastic surgery. Why is it that everyone else can do whatever they want to their bodies and no one seems to care if they are making a mistake?
Why the huge double standard? It is not so much as I disagree with the SOC, as I disagree with the need for them. I have yet to meet a person who said they were denied the right to transition and so they didn't. I have however heard several who were denied and just went and got another Psychiatrist, told them what they wanted to hear, and got the letters.
I also would like to know where all these transsexuals are, that are getting turned away because they don't meet the SOC. I have yet to meet one person that has been prevented from transitioning because of the SOC. So? if it is not stopping anyone, what's the point, other than to make sure we have to spend a lot of money to transition.
I agree, these rules can only be in place to protect the medical community, not from us, but from the far right who thinks God doesn't make mistakes. Nothing else makes any sense, to me.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I believe all transsexuals should be allowed to have the SRS surgery they so desperately need, but you don't have to be transsexual to want to have this operation. If you're TS and are prepared for such a big change, there is a lot to process, you will no doubt be rewarded with the pleasures a well thought out life change can bring you. There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 17, 2007, 04:10:23 PM
Why was Michael Jackson allowed to do this, with no letter?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michael-jackson.com%2Fmj2002.jpg&hash=02f57e45022bdaa44f9949258c6ff6e51e9026b1)
OMG, ok catching my breath. I haven't laughed that hard in a while. thanks.
Quote from: Jonie on July 17, 2007, 04:18:32 PM
...
There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.
So why don't we require persons to get checked out by a psychiatrist before all plastic or other life altering surgery, like vasectomy or hysterectomy, or tubes tied, or gastric bypass? And what about botox or collagen injections, breast implants. No one seems to care of mentally ill people are getting these surgeries because they think it will solve all their problems. For me the issue is singling us out, as if this is the only life altering surgery that a person can have and it should only be allowed if one meets a certain criteria, that incidentally is unproven or even studied for that matter. It's all just opinions.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 17, 2007, 04:43:51 PM
Quote from: Jonie on July 17, 2007, 04:18:32 PM
...
There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.
So why don't we require persons to get checked out by a psychiatrist before all plastic or other life altering surgery, like vasectomy or hysterectomy, or tubes tied, or gastric bypass? And what about botox or collagen injections, breast implants. No one seems to care of mentally ill people are getting these surgeries because they think it will solve all their problems. For me the issue is singling us out, as if this is the only life altering surgery that a person can have and it should only be allowed if one meets a certain criteria, that incidentally is unproven or even studied for that matter. It's all just opinions.
Love always,
Elizabeth
You make some good points and have given me some things to think about, thanks.
GRS isn't plastic surgery. It isn't the same having one's nose countoured as opposed to having a vaginoplasty because the latter targets one major change, indentity in the legal and anatomical aspects. Legally, a person is still the same person after botox, collagen injections, hysterectomy, breast implants. This isn't the case with GRS. The emotional aspect is even more profound after GRS.
Quote from: Godiva on July 17, 2007, 06:23:49 AM
Thundra:
Thank you for your support, and I agree with you.
They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.
But, I must ask who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out?
[/b]
In recent history in the United States, we sexual sterilized and forbidded the mentally retarded to marry and have children. JFK's sister, Rose Kennedy, met this fate. Up to the 1970s the laws of the in land in America allowed the forced, involuntary psychiatric reprogramming (Reparative Therapy) of homosexuals that were legally defined as mentally ill. This issue of inappropriate candidates harkens back to the philosophy of Eugenics and a master race of people.
Godiva
Going back to this thread opener, I would think the 'inappropriate' candidates are people like me who bounce around a lot before we understand that we are neither of you (genders). If I didn't have to drag myself through the evaluation, I would have started HRT. It actually doesn't bother me because I've found my body sex doesn't matter to me, but I also would have continued to think I was female and I only had one course of action available to me; SRS.
Turns out I'm not the right candidate for SRS. I'm sure I would have figured that out before actual surgery, but what if I had the money and the ability to just go get an operation?
What is probably necessary is a method of getting true TSs through the system quickly while straining out the tweeners like myself. Plus, you would want to catch the few people who mistakenly believe that they will simply make their lives better by changing sex. I'm sure these people are few and far between, but they need consideration too.
I think this can be done by developing methods of determining who is a TS and who is an androgyne in the most efficient manner possible.
Determining who is and who is not fit in terms of weeding out the mentally ill is beyond me.
Quote from: Jeannette on July 17, 2007, 05:47:22 PM
GRS isn't plastic surgery. It isn't the same having one's nose countoured as opposed to having a vaginoplasty because the latter targets one major change, indentity in the legal and anatomical aspects. Legally, a person is still the same person after botox, collagen injections, hysterectomy, breast implants. This isn't the case with GRS. The emotional aspect is even more profound after GRS.
Says who? I don't believe that at all. Michael Jackson is clearly not the same person and I have seen people who have had botched plastic surgery and let me assure you, it is life altering and extremely traumatic. It's a matter of scale. Perhaps GRS is more profound for the Transsexual, but there are others who have cosmetic procedures that were extremely profound. You would have to show me some kind of science or study to convince me GRS is any more profound that say, reconstructive surgery for a burn patient or anyone that has had their face damaged. Bad surgery or bad decisions ruin people's lives. For some people a nose contour that everyone can see could be more profound to that person, than GRS that almost no one ever sees, to a transsexual. And as far as changing one's legal status of gender, who does that really affect anyway? Why should others have control over that too? Why should anyone not be allowed to choose for themselves, just like getting that nose job?
I mean, everyone thinks their problem is more important than anyone else's. I am not willing to say that and I see no evidence of it. I guess that is my problem with it.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Jonie on July 17, 2007, 04:18:32 PM
I believe all transsexuals should be allowed to have the SRS surgery they so desperately need, but you don't have to be transsexual to want to have this operation. If you're TS and are prepared for such a big change, there is a lot to process, you will no doubt be rewarded with the pleasures a well thought out life change can bring you. There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.
This statement says two things:
1) HBSOC cannot nor should not be universally, indiscriminately applied to all who are TS.
2) HBSOC should not, as much as I eschew it relative to my transition, be summarily and completely scrapped, IMHO.
Many need such guidance.I do not.And that is exactly what I am going to do: acquire GRS on my own initiative and funding.
Quote from: Rebis on July 17, 2007, 06:17:48 PM
I think this can be done by developing methods of determining who is a TS and who is an androgyne in the most efficient manner possible.
Determining who is and who is not fit in terms of weeding out the mentally ill is beyond me.
What about people that are androgyne and transitioning?
Or transsexual inviduals having mental health issues like depression which is quite common with GID.
In the end if someone really wants to transition they will just tell what the psychs will want to hear. Having therapy available for those wanting it is good. But making it a requirement is stupid.
Paranoia, lack of information, ignorance. People who don't meet any of the criteria for GID/TS'im but want to circumvent the system for whatever reasons and then have the audacity to sue the medical community when things are not as "pretty" as they thought they would be. Does anyone see now why doctors/therapists/the medical community have to "cover their asses"?
tink
Tink:
The above sound quite judgmental, defensive, and angry. Please do not take anything that I say personally. Thank you for you understanding.
Your friend always.
Godiva
Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 05:05:21 AM
Quote from: Rebis on July 17, 2007, 06:17:48 PM
I think this can be done by developing methods of determining who is a TS and who is an androgyne in the most efficient manner possible.
Determining who is and who is not fit in terms of weeding out the mentally ill is beyond me.
What about people that are androgyne and transitioning?
Or transsexual inviduals having mental health issues like depression which is quite common with GID.
In the end if someone really wants to transition they will just tell what the psychs will want to hear. Having therapy available for those wanting it is good. But making it a requirement is stupid.
It's fine with me if an androgyne wants some work done. My point is that not all androgynes understand our condition immediately and we think we are the opposite sex, when we are not. I'm sure that there are some androgynes who would like to have some surgeries. They should be treated as androgynes; given the opportunity to understand their nature before making the decision. I only meant we should be weeded out in order to ascertain what our individual needs are.
Also, when I said 'mental illness' I didn't mean anxiety or depression or OCD and that type of thing. I meant schizophrenia and psychotic breaks and other serious illnesses that are beyond my understanding.
I should have written,
"there are some very serious mental conditions such as schizophrenia and psychosis that are beyond my understanding to make a casual statement in this post concerning the inherent capability of the individual to be treated with SRS and so I leave this subject alone".
I am not for denying any person the treatment necessary to make them a whole person. I am only saying that there are some cases where the patient would benefit from a serious evaluation. I do not mean an evaluation of the person's worth. I mean an evaluation in which the
patient & the doctor confirm that the treatment is desirable for the individual.
aloha
Quote from: rhonda13000 on July 17, 2007, 09:35:56 PM
Quote from: Jonie on July 17, 2007, 04:18:32 PM
I believe all transsexuals should be allowed to have the SRS surgery they so desperately need, but you don't have to be transsexual to want to have this operation. If you're TS and are prepared for such a big change, there is a lot to process, you will no doubt be rewarded with the pleasures a well thought out life change can bring you. There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.
This statement says two things:
1) HBSOC cannot nor should not be universally, indiscriminately applied to all who are TS.
2) HBSOC should not, as much as I eschew it relative to my transition, be summarily and completely scrapped, IMHO.
Many need such guidance.
I do not.
And that is exactly what I am going to do: acquire GRS on my own initiative and funding.
HI Rhonda13000,
I will try to address the issues your post brings to light. Fist of all I am sorry if I angered you, that was not my intention.
1) HBSOC cannot nor should not be universally, indiscriminately applied to all who are TS.
Not everybody who wants to get an SRS is transsexual and the HBSOC can be used to find out if there is another reason they're problem is manifesting as a desire to have this operation. As far as the "Applied to all who are TS." I agree with you totally and so do some therapists, which is a good thing to find out when interviewing your next therapist, if you ever do.
2) HBSOC should not, as much as I eschew it relative to my transition, be summarily and completely scrapped, IMHO.
I agree and since you made me get my thesaurus out for the word eschew I also concur, stand with, subscribe, buy into, with what you have to say on this subject, matter ,issue ,material, object, point.
Many need such guidance.
I do not.
And that is exactly what I am going to do: acquire GRS on my own initiative and funding.
I wish you all the luck in the world and I hope that one day you will let us know how things go. What I was trying to say is not everyone is like you and knows what they want so clearly, this is an operation that is very difficult and expensive to undo so the medical community is maybe too careful for many, but all their reasons aren't sinister.
I went through the process quickly because if I got a whiff that someone was trying to stall me or in any way were dragging their feet I would find someone else, yes this cost me more money and my life style sucked heavily but now it's over. Define where you are; define where you want to be, figure out the quickest and most efficient way to get there and make a plan and adjust as necessary. Then follow the plan with the utmost discipline and finally, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"
QuoteIt's fine with me if an androgyne wants some work done. My point is that not all androgynes understand our condition immediately and we think we are the opposite sex, when we are not. I'm sure that there are some androgynes who would like to have some surgeries.
Yes, there are people who are androgynes who desire similar treatments as TS individuals. Personally, if I weren't concerned with potential health risks, I'd do HRT so as to develop female secondary characteristics. For what it's worth, I was diagnosed TS many years ago, however a long journey of self exploration has brought me to an understanding of myself as androgyne. Regardless, it hasn't changed the desire for external matching my internal. I am not happy being perceived as male.
zythyra
Quote from: Godiva on July 18, 2007, 10:44:41 AM
Paranoia, lack of information, ignorance. People who don't meet any of the criteria for GID/TS'im but want to circumvent the system for whatever reasons and then have the audacity to sue the medical community when things are not as "pretty" as they thought they would be. Does anyone see now why doctors/therapists/the medical community have to "cover their asses"?
tink
Tink:
The above sound quite judgmental, defensive, and angry. Please do not take anything that I say personally. Thank you for you understanding.
Your friend always.
Godiva
Godiva, I am not mad at you but quite upset about how preposterous this statement sounds:
QuoteThey are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.
I wonder if people are really familiar with the HBSOC when they make such allegations or do they simply talk like that out of anger? I mean, I don't know what to think really. If we examine what the HBSOC have to say about the criteria for transsexualism, we have this:
Quote from: HBSOC4
Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied
by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through
surgery and hormone treatment;
2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;
3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.
Now the guidelines for the mental health professional (i.e, gender therapist, psychologist, psychiatrist) are these:
Quote from: HBSOC6
IV. The Mental Health Professional
The Ten Tasks of the Mental Health Professional. Mental health professionals (MHPs) who
work with individuals with gender identity disorders may be regularly called upon to carry out
many of these responsibilities:
1. To accurately diagnose the individual's gender disorder;
2. To accurately diagnose any co-morbid psychiatric conditions and see to their appropriate
treatment;
3. To counsel the individual about the range of treatment options and their implications;
4. To engage in psychotherapy;
5. To ascertain eligibility and readiness for hormone and surgical therapy;
6. To make formal recommendations to medical and surgical colleagues;
7. To document their patient's relevant history in a letter of recommendation;
8. To be a colleague on a team of professionals with an interest in the gender identity
disorders;
9. To educate family members, employers, and institutions about gender identity disorders;
10. To be available for follow-up of previously seen gender patients.
The Adult-Specialist. The education of the mental health professional who specializes in adult
gender identity disorders rests upon basic general clinical competence in diagnosis and treatment
of mental or emotional disorders. Clinical training may occur within any formally credentialing
discipline -- for example, psychology, psychiatry, social work, counseling, or nursing. The
following are the recommended minimal credentials for special competence with the gender
identity disorders:
1. A master's degree or its equivalent in a clinical behavioral science field. This or a more
advanced degree should be granted by an institution accredited by a recognized national
or regional accrediting board. The mental health professional should have documented
credentials from a proper training facility and a licensing board.
2. Specialized training and competence in the assessment of the DSM-IV/ICD-10 Sexual
Disorders (not simply gender identity disorders).
3. Documented supervised training and competence in psychotherapy.
4. Continuing education in the treatment of gender identity disorders, which may include
attendance at professional meetings, workshops, or seminars or participating in research
related to gender identity issues.
What the HBSOC requires for hormone therapy and breast augmentation.
Quote from: HBSOC7
The Differences between Eligibility and Readiness. The SOC provide recommendations for
eligibility requirements for hormones and surgery. Without first meeting these recommended
eligibility requirements, the patient and the therapist should not request hormones or surgery. An
example of an eligibility requirement is: a person must live full time in the preferred gender for
twelve months prior to genital surgery. To meet this criterion, the professional needs to
document that the real-life experience has occurred for this duration. Meeting readiness criteria --
further consolidation of the evolving gender identity or improving mental health in the new or
confirmed gender role -- is more complicated, because it rests upon the clinician's and the
patient's judgment.
The Mental Health Professional's Relationship to the Prescribing Physician and Surgeon.
Mental health professionals who recommend hormonal and surgical therapy share the legal and
ethical responsibility for that decision with the physician who undertakes the treatment.
Hormonal treatment can often alleviate anxiety and depression in people without the use of
additional psychotropic medications. Some individuals, however, need psychotropic medication
prior to, or concurrent with, taking hormones or having surgery. The mental health professional
is expected to make this assessment, and see that the appropriate psychotropic medications are
offered to the patient. The presence of psychiatric co-morbidities does not necessarily preclude
hormonal or surgical treatment, but some diagnoses pose difficult treatment dilemmas and may
delay or preclude the use of either treatment.
The Mental Health Professional's Documentation Letter for Hormone Therapy or Surgery
Should Succinctly Specify:
1. The patient's general identifying characteristics;
2. The initial and evolving gender, sexual, and other psychiatric diagnoses;
3. The duration of their professional relationship including the type of psychotherapy or
evaluation that the patient underwent;
4. The eligibility criteria that have been met and the mental health professional's rationale
for hormone therapy or surgery;
5. The degree to which the patient has followed the Standards of Care to date and the
likelihood of future compliance;
6. Whether the author of the report is part of a gender team;
7. That the sender welcomes a phone call to verify the fact that the mental health
professional actually wrote the letter as described in this document.
The organization and completeness of these letters provide the hormone-prescribing physician
and the surgeon an important degree of assurance that mental health professional is
knowledgeable and competent concerning gender identity disorders.
One Letter is Required for Instituting Hormone Therapy, or for Breast Surgery. One letter
from a mental health professional, including the above seven points, written to the physician who
will be responsible for the patient's medical treatment, is sufficient for instituting hormone
therapy or for a referral for breast surgery (e.g., mastectomy, chest reconstruction, or
augmentation mammoplasty).
What the HBSOC requires for genital surgery (i.e, SRS, GRS)
Quote from: HBSOCTwo Letters are Generally Required for Genital Surgery. Genital surgery for biologic males
may include orchiectomy, penectomy, clitoroplasty, labiaplasty or creation of a neovagina; for
biologic females it may include hysterectomy, salpingo-oophorectomy, vaginectomy,
metoidioplasty, scrotoplasty, urethroplasty, placement of testicular prostheses, or creation of a
neophallus.
It is ideal if mental health professionals conduct their tasks and periodically report on these
processes as part of a team of other mental health professionals and nonpsychiatric physicians.
One letter to the physician performing genital surgery will generally suffice as long as two
mental health professionals sign it.
More commonly, however, letters of recommendation are from mental health professionals who
work alone without colleagues experienced with gender identity disorders. Because professionals
working independently may not have the benefit of ongoing professional consultation on gender
cases, two letters of recommendation are required prior to initiating genital surgery. If the first
letter is from a person with a master's degree, the second letter should be from a psychiatrist or a
Ph.D. clinical psychologist, who can be expected to adequately evaluate co-morbid psychiatric
conditions. If the first letter is from the patient's psychotherapist, the second letter should be from
a person who has only played an evaluative role for the patient. Each letter, however, is expected
to cover the same topics. At least one of the letters should be an extensive report. The second
letter writer, having read the first letter, may choose to offer a briefer summary and an agreement
with the recommendation.
As you can see, the guidelines are very simple steps that
any TS person can follow. There's no conspiracy against transsexuals or mad therapists who selectively choose the rich and famous candidates to get through the process. If you wish, you can read the entire HBSOC in pdf format
here.Someone else here said to me the other day that they had been fulltime for some time but for some strange reason, their therapist was not acknowledging this fact. Well, if this is the case, perhaps finding another gender specialist could be helpful, for it is very possible that the current therapist has an agenda or is not familar with the actual guidelines of HBSOC.
So Godiva no offense taken whatsoever. :) Just a ranting moment....;)
tink :icon_chick:
The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.
The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.
And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.
Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.
Quote from: zythyra on July 18, 2007, 04:13:58 PM
QuoteIt's fine with me if an androgyne wants some work done. My point is that not all androgynes understand our condition immediately and we think we are the opposite sex, when we are not. I'm sure that there are some androgynes who would like to have some surgeries.
Yes, there are people who are androgynes who desire similar treatments as TS individuals. Personally, if I weren't concerned with potential health risks, I'd do HRT so as to develop female secondary characteristics. For what it's worth, I was diagnosed TS many years ago, however a long journey of self exploration has brought me to an understanding of myself as androgyne. Regardless, it hasn't changed the desire for external matching my internal. I am not happy being perceived as male.
zythyra
Hi Zythyra,
Me neither, but HRT won't really help me, so I don't think of it for myself. If I had money for FFS, that might be something that I would be interested in. In fact, as I neared the end of my evaluation for HRT and was accepted as a candidate, I was finally able to visualize what I wanted to look like and it was beyond what HRT could do for me at this time.
I'm not trying to deny people treatment with my statements, but to advocate that sometimes an individual may need the time to better understand themself.
Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 06:52:24 PMThe important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS individuals.
I'm not into much makeup except for the occasional formal event. On a day-to-day basis, lipstick is about it for me, and only because society seems to demand it somehow.
When I was trying to live up to the expectations society expects of one whose body comes with a penis, I always admired the females who wore little or no makeup, and kind of recoiled from the Tammy Bakker look-alikes or Mary Kay Commandos who were OVER done.
Why are we trans women expected to ESPECIALLY adhere to society's stereotypes of How A Woman Should Look And Behave, where the natal women don't have to?
I'm so glad my therapist recognised my feminine nature on my first visit. She tried 'giving permission' to wear more makeup and jewelery to me a couple of times, and my answer was, "Okay, when I feel like it..." That's pretty much over, and I have my SRS letter.
WPATH SOC is a good idea. It's a set of guidelines for competent professionals to use when evaluating and assisting transitioners. The problem is that some professionals may be too rule bound or have agendas. You, the transitioner, the client, the patient, are the leader in your transition. You hire the pros to give you guidance and keep you out of trouble.
If the inappropriate candidates are not 'weeded out', though, there may be a great reduction in availability of SRS surgery for those for whom it is indicated. According to Lynn Conway's estimate, there are 600,000 post-op T-women alive right now. The regret rate is less than 1%. But that's still up to 6,000! How many time can you fill up a Jerry Springer stage before running out of "Look Who's Sorry, Now!" subjects and shows?
If you feel your therapist is on an agenda, rather than is doing what's best for you, CHANGE them. But listen to yourself, too. If you're doing this because it's what you're supposed to do, slow down and really look inside yourself.
SRS is for the rest of your life.
Karen
Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 06:52:24 PM
The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.
The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.
And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.
Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.
I had a therapist who wanted me to wear heavy make-up and a skirt so I found a female therapist who wore blue jeans, a tee shirt and sandals and I asked her if it was alright if I dressed like her and of course it was. As for being liberal with hormones, they can increase your chance of getting cancer so using them to weed out people might not be such a good idea.
Quote from: Jonie on July 18, 2007, 10:27:59 PM
Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 06:52:24 PM
The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.
The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.
And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.
Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.
I had a therapist who wanted me to wear heavy make-up and a skirt so I found a female therapist who wore blue jeans, a tee shirt and sandals and I asked her if it was alright if I dressed like her and of course it was. As for being liberal with hormones, they can increase your chance of getting cancer so using them to weed out people might not be such a good idea.
You know, the more I hear about this, the more upset I become >:(. How can this be stopped? can this therapist be reported? To the board perhaps? This is totally wrong. Therapists are there to guide not to tell you which color of makeup you should wear and what brand of jeans you should buy. This is crazy really! sheesh!
tink :icon_chick:
QuoteMe neither, but HRT won't really help me, so I don't think of it for myself. If I had money for FFS, that might be something that I would be interested in. In fact, as I neared the end of my evaluation for HRT and was accepted as a candidate, I was finally able to visualize what I wanted to look like and it was beyond what HRT could do for me at this time.
I'm not trying to deny people treatment with my statements, but to advocate that sometimes an individual may need the time to better understand themself.
Rebis,
Agreed, one should absolutely take the time to understand who they are. Of course, it's been over a dozen years since I originally transitioned, and I'm still trying to figure myself out ;D
zythyra
Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 10:31:31 PM
Quote from: Jonie on July 18, 2007, 10:27:59 PM
Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 06:52:24 PM
The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.
The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.
And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.
Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.
I had a therapist who wanted me to wear heavy make-up and a skirt so I found a female therapist who wore blue jeans, a tee shirt and sandals and I asked her if it was alright if I dressed like her and of course it was. As for being liberal with hormones, they can increase your chance of getting cancer so using them to weed out people might not be such a good idea.
You know, the more I hear about this, the more upset I become >:(. How can this be stopped? can this therapist be reported? To the board perhaps? This is totally wrong. Therapists are there to guide not to tell you which color of makeup you should wear and what brand of jeans you should buy. This is crazy really! sheesh!
tink :icon_chick:
As you well know Tink any credible therapist would in no way try to influence the behavior of a patient if they are genuinely trying to evaluate in order to confirm a diagnosis. And I would further add that it is just plain ludicrous. Now I'm not saying that this didn't happen but if it did then we need to know the name of the therapist involved so that others can be warned that "
the client was not satisfied with the experience". Of course along with that we need proof that this happened and that it is not just hearsay.
I can just picture the therapist sitting with their client...
Client - "Dr I think that I'm a cold blooded killer. All my life I've wanted to go out a shoot someone"
Therapist - "I can understand that you have this fear that you are going to kill some one, so what I want you to do is to go out and randomly shoot someone in the head to see if you fit with the profile of a cold blooded killer."
Therapy when done with credible medical professionals just doesn't work like that.
Steph
Quote from: Steph on July 19, 2007, 07:07:59 AM
Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 10:31:31 PM
Quote from: Jonie on July 18, 2007, 10:27:59 PM
Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 06:52:24 PM
The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.
The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.
And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.
Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.
I had a therapist who wanted me to wear heavy make-up and a skirt so I found a female therapist who wore blue jeans, a tee shirt and sandals and I asked her if it was alright if I dressed like her and of course it was. As for being liberal with hormones, they can increase your chance of getting cancer so using them to weed out people might not be such a good idea.
You know, the more I hear about this, the more upset I become >:(. How can this be stopped? can this therapist be reported? To the board perhaps? This is totally wrong. Therapists are there to guide not to tell you which color of makeup you should wear and what brand of jeans you should buy. This is crazy really! sheesh!
tink :icon_chick:
As you well know Tink any credible therapist would in no way try to influence the behavior of a patient if they are genuinely trying to evaluate in order to confirm a diagnosis. And I would further add that it is just plain ludicrous. Now I'm not saying that this didn't happen but if it did then we need to know the name of the therapist involved so that others can be warned that "the client was not satisfied with the experience". Of course along with that we need proof that this happened and that it is not just hearsay.
I can just picture the therapist sitting with their client...
Client - "Dr I think that I'm a cold blooded killer. All my life I've wanted to go out a shoot someone"
Therapist - "I can understand that you have this fear that you are going to kill some one, so what I want you to do is to go out and randomly shoot someone in the head to see if you fit with the profile of a cold blooded killer."
Therapy when done with credible medical professionals just doesn't work like that.
Steph
The problem is, there are too many out there that are enforcing their own personal view of what the SOC means. Sometimes it is way off base. The entire system is flawed. Humans are allowed to consent to all kinds of things that ruin their lives, and no one seems to care. Look how many people were talked into buying homes they could not afford with variable rate loans that the lenders knew was going to go up past the point where the homeowner could afford the payments. No one cared. Many of these people are going to lose everything because of it. They will have depression, loss of self esteem, bad credit, some will have lost their savings. Others will have breast implants that are way too big and will damage their body beyond the point of where they can ever look right again, even with corrective surgery. And who has not seen the clips of the bad face lifts that got infected or cheek implants that are so exaggerated that the person looks like a cartoon character.
We can drink alcohol until we poison our bodies and become addicted. Our 18 year old daughters can go have anal sex on film for money, most of whom will seriously regret it, and will be psychologically damaged forever as a result. We send our sons and daughters off to fight this immoral war where they have to see incredibly inhumane things and atrocities that leave them with post traumatic stress disorder. We send them to become killers and they do and they are damaged permanently by it.
All with no letters of permission. This is a ridiculous notion that the SOC are put in place for our protection. Let's do some tort reform, make it illegal to sue doctors who perform GRS/SRS, and let the buyer beware, just like all other cosmetic surgery. Why do we assume that everyone is too stupid to decide for themselves? In the end, that is what we do anyway. And there are still people getting the surgery who end up regretting it, even though it's a rather small number.
I believe that if people were allowed to decide for themselves, there would be no significant increase in the number of procedures done or done and regretted. The SOC make it too easy to blame someone else if one transitions and regrets it. We have seen it time and time again. The person who lied to the therapist is not held to account for their decisions. Instead the psychiatrist who wrote the letter is blamed. Even though the patient lied.
I believe if everyone had to make this decision by themselves, people would seek out better therapists and really make sure of what they are doing. You get a nose job and end up looking stupid (Rosanne Barr), no one blames the plastic surgeon. They blame the person who decided to have it done. If people had to sign a release holding the plastic surgeon harmless, there would be greater care taken in these decisions, than is currently being taken.
If there is no reason to lie to ones therapist, it's a lot harder to convince oneself. However for those who are transsexuals, the decision is not a hard one and does not require years of therapy and thousands of dollars of expenses. Ask yourself, of all the people you have met that desire surgery, how many of those would regret it if they had it? And even if they did regret it, how many of those would be any less happy than they already are?
Love always,
Elizabeth
"Who are the inappropriate candidates?" The ones who sue their health care providers after GRS.
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 19, 2007, 03:11:50 PM
"Who are the inappropriate candidates?" The ones who sue their health care providers after GRS.
So the problem is the US custom of sueing people for such things when unhappy afterwards.
Quote from: taru on July 19, 2007, 04:28:16 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 19, 2007, 03:11:50 PM
"Who are the inappropriate candidates?" The ones who sue their health care providers after GRS.
So the problem is the US custom of sueing people for such things when unhappy afterwards.
Not just American in this case. I've seen suits in Australia and the UK as well.
Dennis
Quote from: StephClient - "Dr I think that I'm a cold blooded killer. All my life I've wanted to go out a shoot someone"
Therapist - "I can understand that you have this fear that you are going to kill some one, so what I want you to do is to go out and randomly shoot someone in the head to see if you fit with the profile of a cold blooded killer."
Steph
ROFL ;D :D
Quote from: StephTherapy when done with credible medical professionals just doesn't work like that.
Actually you're right as always, Steph. It just sounds soooo bizarre. True, if this indeed happened, that therapist needs to be reported to the board at once with the proper evidence for the allegations, of course.
tink :icon_chick:
Re: Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weeded out by the HBSC???????
Answer: Charing Cross GIC, London, England, U.K....
Inpart the HBSOC was developed to keep all the horror stories youve read from happening again... people who were simply over zellous crossdressers from being operated upon... its also to weed out people with personality disorders, and so on and so forth... they have the right idea trying to make sure people are mentaly stable before going for the op... but comeon, point out one TS... shoot... point out one anyone who is totaly mentaly stable... its not happening.
Also the western world places so much value on SEX and class... they need to classify everything... if it dosnt have a name it dosnt exist... why would a rock want to change itsself into dirt... they dont understand it. If you dont understand something place a limit on it and force it into a cookie cutter patern you can kind of understand... People in general fear change, and people in general like sex, and in general are more than happy with there own sex/gender... why would anyone want to change that?
Well, you like being a boy... why do you like being a boy... and you cant use sex, privlage, power, or physique as part of your answer... same goes for girls.... Limit there answers and see how many answers you can actualy get. They do the same to us with the HBSOC and make it so we can only answer in a certian way... answer the question wrong and then *SHrugs* anyways its really late and Im rambeling at this point so.... yeah.....
Quote from: Karen on July 18, 2007, 10:13:59 PM
WPATH SOC is a good idea. It's a set of guidelines for competent professionals to use when evaluating and assisting transitioners. The problem is that some professionals may be too rule bound or have agendas. You, the transitioner, the client, the patient, are the leader in your transition. You hire the pros to give you guidance and keep you out of trouble.
Very true, Karen. :)
Quote from: Wpath.orgETHICAL GUIDELINES FOR PROFESSIONALS
WPATH provides comprehensive Ethical Guidelines concerning the care of patients with gender identity disorders. The new guidelines, which apply to all WPATH members, were adopted in November, 2000.
...and these are the guidelines:
http://www.wpath.org/Documents2/Ethics011105.pdftink :icon_chick:
Quote from: LynnER on July 21, 2007, 05:56:49 AM
Inpart the HBSOC was developed to keep all the horror stories youve read from happening again... people who were simply over zellous crossdressers from being operated upon... its also to weed out people with personality disorders, and so on and so forth... they have the right idea trying to make sure people are mentaly stable before going for the op... but comeon, point out one TS... shoot... point out one anyone who is totaly mentaly stable... its not happening.
Also the western world places so much value on SEX and class... they need to classify everything... if it dosnt have a name it dosnt exist... why would a rock want to change itsself into dirt... they dont understand it. If you dont understand something place a limit on it and force it into a cookie cutter patern you can kind of understand... People in general fear change, and people in general like sex, and in general are more than happy with there own sex/gender... why would anyone want to change that?
Well, you like being a boy... why do you like being a boy... and you cant use sex, privlage, power, or physique as part of your answer... same goes for girls.... Limit there answers and see how many answers you can actualy get. They do the same to us with the HBSOC and make it so we can only answer in a certian way... answer the question wrong and then *SHrugs* anyways its really late and Im rambeling at this point so.... yeah.....
Where are these people? The over zealous crossdressers who want to transition? The ones who's lives have been ruined? And how does that compare to the lives ruined by incompetent mental health care professionals doing insane things like making people wear skirts and makeup, as if this were some requirement to being female. I mean, we hear about these people that need protecting, but I just don't see them. Never have. All the crossdressers I ever talked to, the last thing they want is to lose their penis.
I think that is the point of this thread. Where are all these people that are so stupid they need protection from themselves? And is this protection justified in imposing itself on transsexuals who don't need to be protected from the decision to transition, to protect the alleged people that do?
Did you know that 1 in 100 gastric bypass patients die from the procedure? I was shocked to find this out when I researched it. This is still "experimental" surgery numbers, yet the news talks about it like it's no big deal now. No one needs a letter to get this surgery. You don't even have to be 18. And you want to talk about a lifetime commitment? There are many many foods one can never eat again. People fall into deep depressions following gastric bypass surgery. But still, no letter needed. And there are other choices, this is not the only solution to being overweight.
So I don't buy that our medical community is just making sure people don't ruin their lives. They don't care if people ruin their lives. Again, have a look at Michael Jackson. And who has not seen the pictures of all the other botched procedures. I am sorry, it's not the SOC that I have a problem with. It's being singled out because of strongly held beliefs of society. Rules to "protect"(limit) the people having the procedure.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote
Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out by the HBSC???????
those who really don't want to transition
Quote from: Katia on July 21, 2007, 09:43:06 AM
Quote
Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out by the HBSC???????
those who really don't want to transition
I think you are right about that, but I have a hard time believing these people would transition if allowed to. They are like people that spend their whole life talking about the tattoo or piercing they are going to get, but never do.
So far everyone that I have seen change their mind about transitioning, ended up changing their mind again and transitioned. There are not very many ex-transsexuals. If anyone knows anyone that was misdiagnosed or self diagnosed and later changed their mind, I would be curious to know about them. And I don't necessarily mean from TS to nothing. I mean TS to non op TS, or transgender status. Someone that thought they needed to transition, but changed their mind and it stayed changed. I just don't remember meeting anyone like that. Perhaps Alice, but I thought that Alice pretty much always said she was TS.
Anyway, food for thought.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Androgynes transitioning are consistently misdiagnosed as TS. This is mostly because to transition everyone needs to be diagnosed as TS. The system does not catch this since it is trivial to fool it by conforming to the expected answers.
I don't know anyone regretting treatment. But I know several TS people on DIY because they are not given the diagnose.
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 21, 2007, 01:01:31 PM
So far everyone that I have seen change their mind about transitioning, ended up changing their mind again and transitioned. There are not very many ex-transsexuals. If anyone knows anyone that was misdiagnosed or self diagnosed and later changed their mind, I would be curious to know about them. And I don't necessarily mean from TS to nothing. I mean TS to non op TS, or transgender status. Someone that thought they needed to transition, but changed their mind and it stayed changed. I just don't remember meeting anyone like that. Perhaps Alice, but I thought that Alice pretty much always said she was TS.
Anyway, food for thought.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Isn't Kate Bornstein someone who transitioned and then decided that it wasn't necessary? She doesn't regret it (as far as I know), but she did it because she thought there was only male & female and didn't know there is a middle place.
Just asking. I think this is what I read in her book.
Rebis
Quote from: Rebis on July 21, 2007, 02:59:48 PM
Isn't Kate Bornstein someone who transitioned and then decided that it wasn't necessary? She doesn't regret it (as far as I know), but she did it because she thought there was only male & female and didn't know there is a middle place.
Just asking. I think this is what I read in her book.
Rebis
Yeah, Kate Bornstein, Dr. Renee Richards, Dani Bunten Berry, Sandra MacDougall, Samantha Kane plus many others. You can read more about their stories here:
Transsexual Regret and Reparative Therapy (http://www.glamazon.net/transsexual-regrets.html)
Gender Role Reversal among Post-operative Transsexuals (http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0502.htm)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 21, 2007, 01:01:31 PM
Quote from: Katia on July 21, 2007, 09:43:06 AM
Quote
Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out by the HBSC???????
those who really don't want to transition
I think you are right about that, but I have a hard time believing these people would transition if allowed to. They are like people that spend their whole life talking about the tattoo or piercing they are going to get, but never do.
So far everyone that I have seen change their mind about transitioning, ended up changing their mind again and transitioned. There are not very many ex-transsexuals. If anyone knows anyone that was misdiagnosed or self diagnosed and later changed their mind, I would be curious to know about them. And I don't necessarily mean from TS to nothing. I mean TS to non op TS, or transgender status. Someone that thought they needed to transition, but changed their mind and it stayed changed. I just don't remember meeting anyone like that. Perhaps Alice, but I thought that Alice pretty much always said she was TS.
Anyway, food for thought.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I've heard of a number who went into RLE and found it wasn't working and went back. I've heard of a number who went through GRS and found it wasn't what they wanted and had reverse surgery. But as far as I know, nobody has done a study to identify what the characteristics of these people are. Until that happens, therapists will be working only from assumptions, not facts.
Posted on: July 21, 2007, 08:06:06 PM
Quote from: Rebis on July 21, 2007, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 21, 2007, 01:01:31 PM
So far everyone that I have seen change their mind about transitioning, ended up changing their mind again and transitioned. There are not very many ex-transsexuals. If anyone knows anyone that was misdiagnosed or self diagnosed and later changed their mind, I would be curious to know about them. And I don't necessarily mean from TS to nothing. I mean TS to non op TS, or transgender status. Someone that thought they needed to transition, but changed their mind and it stayed changed. I just don't remember meeting anyone like that. Perhaps Alice, but I thought that Alice pretty much always said she was TS.
Anyway, food for thought.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Isn't Kate Bornstein someone who transitioned and then decided that it wasn't necessary? She doesn't regret it (as far as I know), but she did it because she thought there was only male & female and didn't know there is a middle place.
Just asking. I think this is what I read in her book.
Rebis
I've heard of any number of who got through surgery and desided that looking back on it it wasn't important. Basicaly a form of what psychologists call "hindsight bias." Just because someone gets to the end and says, "I didn't need to do this," doesn't mean that perspective is true. Maybe they feel like they don't need it now, but they sure felt like they needed it before.
One common feature here is that these people do get SRS even with the current system. Thus SOC is not succesful in weeding them out, but still costs and slows everyone down.
For me it is about the number of people that are made suffer/comit suicide because they are refused treatment or it is very slow vs the number of people that would suffer/commit suicide after SRS and who are weeded out by the current system.
Also it is our own body and I believe in bodily autonomy.
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 17, 2007, 04:43:51 PM
Quote from: Jonie on July 17, 2007, 04:18:32 PM
...
There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.
So why don't we require persons to get checked out by a psychiatrist before all plastic or other life altering surgery, like vasectomy or hysterectomy, or tubes tied, or gastric bypass? And what about botox or collagen injections, breast implants. No one seems to care of mentally ill people are getting these surgeries because they think it will solve all their problems. For me the issue is singling us out, as if this is the only life altering surgery that a person can have and it should only be allowed if one meets a certain criteria, that incidentally is unproven or even studied for that matter. It's all just opinions.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Hysterectomy or tube tying is nearly impossible to get, actually, without a valid medical condition. Especially if you are childfree and unmarried. Gastric bypass has extensive medical standards that are supposed to be met.
Posted on: July 22, 2007, 02:38:59 AM
Quote from: Rebis on July 18, 2007, 03:20:44 PM
Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 05:05:21 AM
Quote from: Rebis on July 17, 2007, 06:17:48 PM
I think this can be done by developing methods of determining who is a TS and who is an androgyne in the most efficient manner possible.
Determining who is and who is not fit in terms of weeding out the mentally ill is beyond me.
What about people that are androgyne and transitioning?
Or transsexual inviduals having mental health issues like depression which is quite common with GID.
In the end if someone really wants to transition they will just tell what the psychs will want to hear. Having therapy available for those wanting it is good. But making it a requirement is stupid.
It's fine with me if an androgyne wants some work done. My point is that not all androgynes understand our condition immediately and we think we are the opposite sex, when we are not. I'm sure that there are some androgynes who would like to have some surgeries. They should be treated as androgynes; given the opportunity to understand their nature before making the decision. I only meant we should be weeded out in order to ascertain what our individual needs are.
I'd be one of the ones looking for surgical assistance in altering my body.
If I had gone to a plastic surgeon without understanding my condition? I'd be sporting a pair of double ds right now. I honestly believed that to make myself be a girl, I just needed bigger boobs.
Personally, I tend to think that any surgery for a non-physically life threatening condition should have psych SOC. Breast augmentation, gastric bypass, hysto... all of them. At least one appointment to discuss things. Because I could have made a MASSIVE mistake.
Quote from: taru on July 22, 2007, 02:16:48 AM
For me it is about the number of people that are made suffer/comit suicide because they are refused treatment or it is very slow vs the number of people that would suffer/commit suicide after SRS and who are weeded out by the current system.
Taru, would you be so kind as to provide evidence of these people who committed suicide and were made to suffer because they were refused treatment for GID? Thanks very much hon.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on July 22, 2007, 02:48:12 AM
Taru, would you be so kind as to provide evidence of these people who committed suicide and were made to suffer because they were refused treatment for GID? Thanks very much hon.
What kind of evidence do you want?
I know several local people who have been refused treatment by the local system (as find an another therapist is not an option here). Most seem to end up on DIY hormones and grow anxious/depressed. I know at least one suicide attempt because of this from a small sample pool. It seems that usually the doctor changes or they get better at giving the expected answers at some point and finally get the diagnose after needless suffering.
Even if we wanted to report these therapists to the board for allegedly refusing treatment to TS people, we need concrete proof that this actually happened and that these allegations aren't merely hearsay. Unfortunately, there have been many instances when people have tried to damage the reputation of members of the medical community in so many ways; hence, substantial evidence is what is needed to do something against this.
tink :icon_chick:
ROTFLMAO!!!!!! Oh MY GODDESS!!!!
This reminds me so much of the exercise way back in my PSU days where in Speech Comp., one person whispers something to another person who whispers to another and on and on.
At the end of the circle, the last person to get the news whispers it back to the original person that started the gossip. And guess what, not only is the message completely wrong, it has totally lost it's original intent.
Since this quote is atributed to me, I feel I best clarify my point:
QuoteThey are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.
So, who are these mythical people that needed to be weeded out that I am supposedly excluding for their own good? Only they know who they are! I personally have never net a single person that was transitioning, had transitioned, or had surgery that regreted it even a little bit! And I have been around a looooong time.
So, my point about the SOC is that they are not necessary. They are a moot point, set up back at the beginning of this exodus to provide cover for the surgeons against the uncertainty of a pioneering treatment. Have we already forgotten that this cottage industry was only created roughly 50 years ago? Nowadays, does anyone know anyone that regrets any choices they have made? Seriously? Anyone?
So many people have gone thru the SOC at this point that it should be obvious to even nitwits like me that they are an unnecessary bottleneck. Every person has to follow the same guidelines, and take roughly the same amount of time even though everyone comes at this differently. It's speaks to the ridiculous for my part. Each person should be able to proceed at their own pace without having to meet some arbitrary time guideline or paperwork issue. This has been going on for decades. Don't you think that if mass groups of people were going to throw themselves off of a bridge out of regret, or despair, that it would have already occured?
Now, thses guidelines that were set up back in the day may have been deemed necessary back then, but I don't believe they are valid anymore. That is my big flippin' opinion. They may not be a financial hardship to someone that has a lot of money stashed away, or a retirement fund to tap, or a great paying job. But for the average person slaving away at the bottom, forcing someone to go thru a process, where: they have to pay all of the costs toward (the US is not GB or O' Canada) including so many sessions for this therapy and so many sessions for that therapy, simply to get a letter that has about as much value these days as a lincoln penny, is a coersive and undo burden on clients seeking treatment. Also my opinion. Dig?
Anyone can get one, because anyone serious about this process we are discussing is willing to undergo tremendous hardship to do so. But, if it proves nothing but the fact that they can make enough money to pay off some therapists for a letter that anyone can get, than WTF are we doing? Those people in the bottom category could be saving their money to get surgery or FFS or some other thing that is way more important toward their eventual transition than paying some therapists and doctors to have permission to do something that they then have to pay for out of their own pocket. This speaks to me of a collusion between the surgeons and the medical health people (wink, wink, nod, nod) to to ensure everyone is making money off of this deal.
NOW! If the medical professionals want to restrict the ability of people to get the treatment they need to those willing to get a letter, than those same medical professionals better make damn sure that they also see to it that they find a way to pay for that service as well. Because they have no business controlling access to something someone else is paying for out of their own pocket. That is definitely my opinion. What the healthcare systems in Canada and GB do is different story. But in the US, it's every man and woman for themselves.
Further, if we go back to my original comments, they were made in reaction to the story posted about the person in GB that transitioned and then regretted it.
THAT mythical person. But if this person with regret went thru the entire SOC process, and made it to surgery, WTF are the SOC for? Here is the perfect example of someone that transitioned and then had regret afterward. That is one out of how many? One out of a thousand, ten-thousand, or more? There is the one person where anyone has heard about regret in how many years and the SOC could not prevent them from self destruction? Than
WHAT GOOD ARE THEY!????So, let's review kids. The SOC don't really benefit people that transition and then have regret.
They don't help those mutitude that go thru the process and get a letter that proves nothing in particular, other than they are willing to pay a bunch of money on an hourly basis to a bunch of medical healthcare professionals that then give them a letter as long as they are not psychotic, I guess? One therapist can't tell that in a visit or two?
So, who exactly IS the SOC benefitting? Well, the medical healthcare people are guaranteed a certain amount of money per patient until they deem it appropriate to give them the letters they need. The surgeons benefit because having the patient go thru the letter process almost guarantees them a good case in their favor if the highly unlikey mythical patient of regret shows up on their doorstep later on. I see a collusion. A form of piracy. That
IS my opinion. Show me another surgical procedure where the patient is
FORCED to undergo a mental health evaluation before a surgeon will operate. It's absurd. That is also my opinion.
My solution? Abolish the SOC. Force the medical community to treat you on an individual basis, the same way as all other surgeons have to treat their patients. Don't you people get that you are their boss?
YOU are paying
them for a sevice. They have to answer to you, not you to them. At this point, the record will show that the risk to a surgeon performing SRS on a patient in matters other than medical liability on a purely physical basis is negligible. Time has shown that the mythical legion of SRS patients that march post-op into a surgeons office and demanding a refund are simply not going to materialize. This whole process is stuck in a time warp, and it is for reasons more political than practical.
C'mon people. It's your money, and your time, and your life. Caveat Emptor. Watch out for your own interests, cause they don't give a damn about you. How do I know? ;) Try getting treatment in the US without $$$. Go ahead. Try. See how far you get. The SOC and the medical people can kiss my skinny white ass.
It seems to me that if a MTF is going to
a) spend countless hours having electrolysis (or laser) removing facial hair
b) come out to your family, friends and workplace with full knowledge of potentially losing your family, friends and job
c) spend a year of RLE dealing with certain awkwardness to varying degrees
d) take hormones that will modify your body, decrease your sex drive considerably and usually cause you to become sterile
e) spending major $$$ in the process
I can't think of any other hoop that someone should be expected to pass through. Give that person surgery ASAP! Free of charge if I had my say.
So to answer the question, who will be weeded out? By deduction, anyone who can't fulfill a) - e). I don't think the SOC is unreasonable, and I think its necessary as it buys the qualified therapist some time to determine if this person is relatively sane (whatever that is). What are the characteristics of these individuals? Dont' know, you will have to ask them, cuz I'm in it for the long haul.
Suzie
p.s. HBIGDA has changed their name to the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH). Their new website is http://wpath.org/
Quotep.s. HBIGDA has changed their name to the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH). Their new website is http://wpath.org/
Yeah? Well, then they can kiss my ass too.
Quote from: Tink on July 22, 2007, 06:06:30 PM
Even if we wanted to report these therapists to the board for allegedly refusing treatment to TS people, we need concrete proof that this actually happened and that these allegations aren't merely hearsay. Unfortunately, there have been many instances when people have tried to damage the reputation of members of the medical community in so many ways; hence, substantial evidence is what is needed to do something against this.
tink :icon_chick:
It's certainly not hearsay in the U.K and many of us have reported the pdychiatrists to the GMC and Healthcare Commiission. These people are not the medical community (they are not technicians or surgeons) just a brick wall between patient and treatment..
Posted on: July 23, 2007, 03:28:23 AM
Quote from: Tink on July 22, 2007, 02:48:12 AM
Quote from: taru on July 22, 2007, 02:16:48 AM
For me it is about the number of people that are made suffer/comit suicide because they are refused treatment or it is very slow vs the number of people that would suffer/commit suicide after SRS and who are weeded out by the current system.
Taru, would you be so kind as to provide evidence of these people who committed suicide and were made to suffer because they were refused treatment for GID? Thanks very much hon.
tink :icon_chick:
Tink, I can give you some of the names of the suicide cases in the U.K who attended Charing Cross GIC off forum
Quote from: Tink on July 22, 2007, 06:06:30 PM
Even if we wanted to report these therapists to the board for allegedly refusing treatment to TS people, we need concrete proof that this actually happened and that these allegations aren't merely hearsay. Unfortunately, there have been many instances when people have tried to damage the reputation of members of the medical community in so many ways; hence, substantial evidence is what is needed to do something against this.
Seems like the proof you want is outing people on the internet, which I am not going to do.
You seem to consistenly forget that we come from different countries with different medical systems. Do you have the slightest idea how the system works here? Or whether the psychiatrists have much experience with GID...
Things don't work the same as in the US and this isn't the first thread when people make the assumption that US situation = world situation.
It kinda reminds me of those stupid questions they used to ask at the airport. Have you left you bag unattended? Did anyone ask you to take a bag for them? In the 30+ years these rules were in effect, not once did anyone in any airport ever answer in the affirmative. They decided it was stupid to keep asking the questions.
Transition is the same. We all have "heard" about someone who was allegedly unhappy about transitioning, but it's aways just a story. No one actually knows anyone that this happened to. It's like the lottery, when it does happen out of the thousands and thousands of transsexuals that have surgery every year they say "see?". Of course these people that are unhappy, it turns out did use the SOC. What? How could that be? They followed the SOC and still were unhappy? You mean they lied? Gee, I don't know any transsexuals that lied to their shrink to make sure they got their letters.
Come on, it's time to admit this system is a sham. Everyone knows what to say to the shrinks and more importantly, what not to say. And even if someone messes up, they just go and get another shrink. It's all a huge waste of time and money.
One more quick anecdote. When my brother got burned in an electrical accident at work he was on morphine for pain. The burn centers policy was "no pain". They let the patients decide what they needed and how much. I asked the doctor wasn't this crazy to let the patients decide how much and how long for an incredibly addictive class 1 narcotic? He told me that patients ween themselves off pain medicine before doctors would have. And he said it was a wide margin. People can be trusted with their own lives. They don't want to be drug addicts. They also don't want to change gender. They have to. Let them.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 23, 2007, 03:53:40 AM
ITransition is the same. We all have "heard" about someone who was allegedly unhappy about transitioning, but it's aways just a story. No one actually knows anyone that this happened to. It's like the lottery, when it does happen out of the thousands and thousands of transsexuals that have surgery every year they say "see?". Of course these people that are unhappy, it turns out did use the SOC. What? How could that be? They followed the SOC and still were unhappy? You mean they lied? Gee, I don't know any transsexuals that lied to their shrink to make sure they got their letters.
We occasionally hear of the ones who turn back, because that's news. We don't hear about the ones who later regretted turning back.
I know people who regretted transitioning and even surgery enough to transition back to their old lives. Pretty much happy too but they did cut all ties to the T community afterwards. Someone I worked with in the past had a relative go through everything (MTF) and after SRS went back to living as a male because he was unhappy. The one common thread is that all of them expected transition and surgery to solve everything. Neither will do that for you, it takes work. Oh and all went through the SoC but I have no idea how honest they were with the therapist or themselves.
Quote from: Thundra on July 22, 2007, 07:17:32 PM
... Nowadays, does anyone know anyone that regrets any choices they have made? Seriously? Anyone? ...
I have met two that have transitioned on the job. Lived full time as women. Then later changed their minds. They were also partners. I am not sure why they are just friends now, but that is how it is. I am a bit too shy and sensitive to ask why, but I should. I what to know for myself and post what I find out for those that are interested.
One still has "her" long hair but now a beard and he is "married" to a genetic woman and seems happy. He met the wife when he was living as a girl, and the wife says she sometimes misses the girl in him, I am told.
The other I know better. She transitioned at the same company where I work. I knew about her, because I heard some of the fall out over the bathroom situation. Several years later I saw on the seniority list that Joan had gone back to John (not the real names.)
As he explained it to me, is work group had a bible study during their breaks. He started getting serious about the bible and religion, and what god might want for his life. This caused him to go back to the catholic faith of his youth. And I guess after a lot of sole searching decided to reverse his transition (again also at work) and live as a man. He sees the same doctor and now gets testosterone instead of estrogen. He seems happy now. He looks quite androgynous, maybe like a butch lesbian. Probably eats too much food and drinks too many beers, but has not mentioned that he now regrets either transition.
We are good friends now and I often refer to him as "her" to my other friends, because that is how I thought of him for 8 or 10 years, until I got the nerve and opportunity to meet him. I see the same shrink as John and he said to say "Hi" to her. She was quite surprised that he want back to living as a man, and commented on what a cute girl he made.
Too bad I never saw that woman.
TBH I've known some completely mental post-op's who couldn't pass their way out of a paper bag who set off every "crazy person" alarm in my head yet still didn't have any regrets and seemed perfectly happy with it.
The approach most therapists I think should take is whether someone can maintain a reasonably normal through transition without turning into a social recluse sitting in a one bedroom flat on benefits.
QuoteIsn't Kate Bornstein someone who transitioned and then decided that it wasn't necessary? She doesn't regret it (as far as I know), but she did it because she thought there was only male & female and didn't know there is a middle place.
Just asking. I think this is what I read in her book.
I've read Kate's books, as I understand it, zie had SRS and after a while went beyond binary gender identification. Zie is not man, not woman, considers hirself as other. As far as I know, zie has no regrets about SRS, and prefers living as female rather than male presentation.
zythyra
QuoteCome on, it's time to admit this system is a sham. Everyone knows what to say to the shrinks and more importantly, what not to say. And even if someone messes up, they just go and get another shrink. It's all a huge waste of time and money.
Probably the most rational thing I've ever seen posted here. The system IS a sham, and benefits the medical community. You people are a cash cow. I never realized it, until they tried to put me thru the ringer when I went to get one of my surgical corrections. It's absurd how badly they treat you.
And your silence, and need to be stealth feeds that dysfunction. I don't have an answer for this community. No one is going to give you the rights and voice you deserve until you claim it. But claiming it puts you in the public eye. Which seems to defeat the purpose of your transition.
Worse still, when someone is willing stand up and speak for you, and to fight for your cause, they get labelled as other, not like me, and not a real man/woman. It would be ironically comical if it were not so painfully sad.
QuoteI've read Kate's books, as I understand it, zie had SRS and after a while went beyond binary gender identification. Zie is not man, not woman, considers hirself as other. As far as I know, zie has no regrets about SRS, and prefers living as female rather than male presentation.
Kate is a hoot. She has chosen to live outside the box. I respect her for that, just as I respect those of you that choose to live in the box [stealth]. I live outside the box, because that is my birthright.
QuoteKate is a hoot. She has chosen to live outside the box. I respect her for that, just as I respect those of you that choose to live in the box [stealth]. I live outside the box, because that is my birthright.
While I was early in the process of discovering myself to be neither of the binary genders, I found Kate's books quite inspirational. Also Leslie Feinberg and others. It's good to know there are other folks living outside the box, we're not alone.
zythyra