Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out by the HBSC???????

[Jonie]

I believe all transsexuals should be allowed to have the SRS surgery they so desperately need, but you don't have to be transsexual to want to have this operation. If you're TS and are prepared for such a big change, there is a lot to process, you will no doubt be rewarded with the pleasures a well thought out life change can bring you. There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.

This statement says two things:

1) HBSOC cannot nor should not be universally, indiscriminately applied to all who are TS.

2) HBSOC should not, as much as I eschew it relative to my transition, be summarily and completely scrapped, IMHO.

Many need such guidance.

I do not.

And that is exactly what I am going to do: acquire GRS on my own initiative and funding.

HI Rhonda13000,
  I will try to address the issues your post brings to light. Fist of all I am sorry if I angered you, that was not my intention.

1) HBSOC cannot nor should not be universally, indiscriminately applied to all who are TS.
  Not everybody who wants to get an SRS is transsexual and the HBSOC can be used to find out if there is another reason they're problem is manifesting as a desire to have this operation. As far as the "Applied to all who are TS." I agree with you totally and so do some therapists, which is a good thing to find out when interviewing your next therapist, if you ever do.

2) HBSOC should not, as much as I eschew it relative to my transition, be summarily and completely scrapped, IMHO.
I agree and since you made me get my thesaurus out for the word eschew I also concur, stand with, subscribe, buy into, with what you have to say on this subject, matter ,issue ,material, object, point.

Many need such guidance.

I do not.

And that is exactly what I am going to do: acquire GRS on my own initiative and funding.
I wish you all the luck in the world and I hope that one day you will let us know how things go. What I was trying to say is not everyone is like you and knows what they want so clearly, this is an operation that is very difficult and expensive to undo so the medical community is maybe too careful for many, but all their reasons aren't sinister.
I went through the process quickly because if I got a whiff that someone was trying to stall me or in any way were dragging their feet I would find someone else, yes this cost me more money and my life style sucked heavily but now it's over. Define where you are; define where you want to be, figure out the quickest and most efficient way to get there and make a plan and adjust as necessary. Then follow the plan with the utmost discipline and finally, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" 

[Shana A]

It's fine with me if an androgyne wants some work done. My point is that not all androgynes understand our condition immediately and we think we are the opposite sex, when we are not. I'm sure that there are some androgynes who would like to have some surgeries.

Yes, there are people who are androgynes who desire similar treatments as TS individuals. Personally, if I weren't concerned with potential health risks, I'd do HRT so as to develop female secondary characteristics. For what it's worth, I was diagnosed TS many years ago, however a long journey of self exploration has brought me to an understanding of myself as androgyne. Regardless, it hasn't changed the desire for external matching my internal. I am not happy being perceived as male.

zythyra

[tinkerbell]

Paranoia, lack of information, ignorance.  People who don't meet any of the criteria for GID/TS'im  but want to circumvent the system for whatever reasons and then have the audacity to sue the medical community when things are not as "pretty" as they thought they would be.  Does anyone see now why doctors/therapists/the medical community have to "cover their asses"?

tink

Tink:

The above sound quite judgmental, defensive, and angry. Please do not take anything that I say personally. Thank you for you understanding.

Your friend always.
Godiva

Godiva, I am not mad at you but quite upset about how preposterous this statement sounds:

They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.

I wonder if people are really familiar with the HBSOC when they make such allegations or do they simply talk like that out of anger?  I mean, I don't know what to think really.  If we examine what the HBSOC have to say about the criteria for transsexualism, we have this:

4
Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied
by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through
surgery and hormone treatment;
2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;
3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Now the guidelines for the mental health professional (i.e, gender therapist, psychologist, psychiatrist) are these:

6
IV. The Mental Health Professional
The Ten Tasks of the Mental Health Professional. Mental health professionals (MHPs) who
work with individuals with gender identity disorders may be regularly called upon to carry out
many of these responsibilities:
1. To accurately diagnose the individual's gender disorder;
2. To accurately diagnose any co-morbid psychiatric conditions and see to their appropriate
treatment;
3. To counsel the individual about the range of treatment options and their implications;
4. To engage in psychotherapy;
5. To ascertain eligibility and readiness for hormone and surgical therapy;
6. To make formal recommendations to medical and surgical colleagues;
7. To document their patient's relevant history in a letter of recommendation;
8. To be a colleague on a team of professionals with an interest in the gender identity
disorders;
9. To educate family members, employers, and institutions about gender identity disorders;
10. To be available for follow-up of previously seen gender patients.
The Adult-Specialist. The education of the mental health professional who specializes in adult
gender identity disorders rests upon basic general clinical competence in diagnosis and treatment
of mental or emotional disorders. Clinical training may occur within any formally credentialing
discipline -- for example, psychology, psychiatry, social work, counseling, or nursing. The
following are the recommended minimal credentials for special competence with the gender
identity disorders:
1. A master's degree or its equivalent in a clinical behavioral science field. This or a more
advanced degree should be granted by an institution accredited by a recognized national
or regional accrediting board. The mental health professional should have documented
credentials from a proper training facility and a licensing board.
2. Specialized training and competence in the assessment of the DSM-IV/ICD-10 Sexual
Disorders (not simply gender identity disorders).
3. Documented supervised training and competence in psychotherapy.
4. Continuing education in the treatment of gender identity disorders, which may include
attendance at professional meetings, workshops, or seminars or participating in research
related to gender identity issues.

What the HBSOC requires for hormone therapy and breast augmentation.

7
The Differences between Eligibility and Readiness. The SOC provide recommendations for
eligibility requirements for hormones and surgery. Without first meeting these recommended
eligibility requirements, the patient and the therapist should not request hormones or surgery. An
example of an eligibility requirement is: a person must live full time in the preferred gender for
twelve months prior to genital surgery. To meet this criterion, the professional needs to
document that the real-life experience has occurred for this duration. Meeting readiness criteria --
further consolidation of the evolving gender identity or improving mental health in the new or
confirmed gender role -- is more complicated, because it rests upon the clinician's and the
patient's judgment.
The Mental Health Professional's Relationship to the Prescribing Physician and Surgeon.
Mental health professionals who recommend hormonal and surgical therapy share the legal and
ethical responsibility for that decision with the physician who undertakes the treatment.
Hormonal treatment can often alleviate anxiety and depression in people without the use of
additional psychotropic medications. Some individuals, however, need psychotropic medication
prior to, or concurrent with, taking hormones or having surgery. The mental health professional
is expected to make this assessment, and see that the appropriate psychotropic medications are
offered to the patient. The presence of psychiatric co-morbidities does not necessarily preclude
hormonal or surgical treatment, but some diagnoses pose difficult treatment dilemmas and may
delay or preclude the use of either treatment.
The Mental Health Professional's Documentation Letter for Hormone Therapy or Surgery
Should Succinctly Specify:
1. The patient's general identifying characteristics;
2. The initial and evolving gender, sexual, and other psychiatric diagnoses;
3. The duration of their professional relationship including the type of psychotherapy or
evaluation that the patient underwent;
4. The eligibility criteria that have been met and the mental health professional's rationale
for hormone therapy or surgery;
5. The degree to which the patient has followed the Standards of Care to date and the
likelihood of future compliance;
6. Whether the author of the report is part of a gender team;
7. That the sender welcomes a phone call to verify the fact that the mental health
professional actually wrote the letter as described in this document.
The organization and completeness of these letters provide the hormone-prescribing physician
and the surgeon an important degree of assurance that mental health professional is
knowledgeable and competent concerning gender identity disorders.
One Letter is Required for Instituting Hormone Therapy, or for Breast Surgery. One letter
from a mental health professional, including the above seven points, written to the physician who
will be responsible for the patient's medical treatment, is sufficient for instituting hormone
therapy or for a referral for breast surgery (e.g., mastectomy, chest reconstruction, or
augmentation mammoplasty).

What the HBSOC requires for genital surgery (i.e, SRS, GRS)

Two Letters are Generally Required for Genital Surgery. Genital surgery for biologic males
may include orchiectomy, penectomy, clitoroplasty, labiaplasty or creation of a neovagina; for
biologic females it may include hysterectomy, salpingo-oophorectomy, vaginectomy,
metoidioplasty, scrotoplasty, urethroplasty, placement of testicular prostheses, or creation of a
neophallus.
It is ideal if mental health professionals conduct their tasks and periodically report on these
processes as part of a team of other mental health professionals and nonpsychiatric physicians.
One letter to the physician performing genital surgery will generally suffice as long as two
mental health professionals sign it.
More commonly, however, letters of recommendation are from mental health professionals who
work alone without colleagues experienced with gender identity disorders. Because professionals
working independently may not have the benefit of ongoing professional consultation on gender
cases, two letters of recommendation are required prior to initiating genital surgery. If the first
letter is from a person with a master's degree, the second letter should be from a psychiatrist or a
Ph.D. clinical psychologist, who can be expected to adequately evaluate co-morbid psychiatric
conditions. If the first letter is from the patient's psychotherapist, the second letter should be from
a person who has only played an evaluative role for the patient. Each letter, however, is expected
to cover the same topics. At least one of the letters should be an extensive report. The second
letter writer, having read the first letter, may choose to offer a briefer summary and an agreement
with the recommendation.

As you can see, the guidelines are very simple steps that any TS person can follow.  There's no conspiracy against transsexuals or mad therapists who selectively choose the rich and famous candidates to get through the process.  If you wish, you can read the entire HBSOC in pdf format here.


Someone else here said to me the other day that they had been fulltime for some time but for some strange reason, their therapist was not acknowledging this fact.  Well, if this is the case, perhaps finding another gender specialist could be helpful, for it is very possible that the current therapist has an agenda or is not familar with the actual guidelines of HBSOC.

So Godiva no offense taken whatsoever.    Just a ranting moment....

tink

[taru]

The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.

The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.

And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.

Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.

[RebeccaFog]

It's fine with me if an androgyne wants some work done. My point is that not all androgynes understand our condition immediately and we think we are the opposite sex, when we are not. I'm sure that there are some androgynes who would like to have some surgeries.

Yes, there are people who are androgynes who desire similar treatments as TS individuals. Personally, if I weren't concerned with potential health risks, I'd do HRT so as to develop female secondary characteristics. For what it's worth, I was diagnosed TS many years ago, however a long journey of self exploration has brought me to an understanding of myself as androgyne. Regardless, it hasn't changed the desire for external matching my internal. I am not happy being perceived as male.

zythyra

Hi Zythyra,

   Me neither, but HRT won't really help me, so I don't think of it for myself.  If I had money for FFS, that might be something that I would be interested in. In fact, as I neared the end of my evaluation for HRT and was accepted as a candidate, I was finally able to visualize what I wanted to look like and it was beyond what HRT could do for me at this time.
   I'm not trying to deny people treatment with my statements, but to advocate that sometimes an individual may need the time to better understand themself.

[Hazumu]

The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS individuals.

I'm not into much makeup except for the occasional formal event.  On a day-to-day basis, lipstick is about it for me, and only because society seems to demand it somehow.

When I was trying to live up to the expectations society expects of one whose body comes with a penis, I always admired the females who wore little or no makeup, and kind of recoiled from the Tammy Bakker look-alikes or Mary Kay Commandos who were OVER done.

Why are we trans women expected to ESPECIALLY adhere to society's stereotypes of How A Woman Should Look And Behave, where the natal women don't have to?

I'm so glad my therapist recognised my feminine nature on my first visit.  She tried 'giving permission' to wear more makeup and jewelery to me a couple of times, and my answer was, "Okay, when I feel like it..."  That's pretty much over, and I have my SRS letter.

WPATH SOC is a good idea.  It's a set of guidelines for competent professionals to use when evaluating and assisting transitioners.  The problem is that some professionals may be too rule bound or have agendas.  You, the transitioner, the client, the patient, are the leader in your transition.  You hire the pros to give you guidance and keep you out of trouble.

If the inappropriate candidates are not 'weeded out', though, there may be a great reduction in availability of SRS surgery for those for whom it is indicated.  According to Lynn Conway's estimate, there are 600,000 post-op T-women alive right now.  The regret rate is less than 1%.  But that's still up to 6,000!   How many time can you fill up a Jerry Springer stage before running out of "Look Who's Sorry, Now!" subjects and shows?

If you feel your therapist is on an agenda, rather than is doing what's best for you, CHANGE them.  But listen to yourself, too.  If you're doing this because it's what you're supposed to do, slow down and really look inside yourself.

SRS is for the rest of your life.

Karen

[Jonie]

The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.

The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.

And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.

Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.

I had a therapist who wanted me to wear heavy make-up and a skirt so I found a female therapist who wore blue jeans, a tee shirt and sandals and I asked her if it was alright if I dressed like her and of course it was. As for being liberal with hormones, they can increase your chance of getting cancer so using them to weed out people might not be such a good idea.

[tinkerbell]

The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.

The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.

And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.

Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.

I had a therapist who wanted me to wear heavy make-up and a skirt so I found a female therapist who wore blue jeans, a tee shirt and sandals and I asked her if it was alright if I dressed like her and of course it was. As for being liberal with hormones, they can increase your chance of getting cancer so using them to weed out people might not be such a good idea.

You know, the more I hear about this, the more upset I become  .  How can this be stopped?  can this therapist be reported?  To the board perhaps?  This is totally wrong.  Therapists are there to guide not to tell you which color of makeup you should wear and what brand of jeans you should buy.  This is crazy really! sheesh!

tink

[Shana A]

Me neither, but HRT won't really help me, so I don't think of it for myself.  If I had money for FFS, that might be something that I would be interested in. In fact, as I neared the end of my evaluation for HRT and was accepted as a candidate, I was finally able to visualize what I wanted to look like and it was beyond what HRT could do for me at this time.
   I'm not trying to deny people treatment with my statements, but to advocate that sometimes an individual may need the time to better understand themself.

Rebis,

Agreed, one should absolutely take the time to understand who they are. Of course, it's been over a dozen years since I originally transitioned, and I'm still trying to figure myself out 

zythyra

[Steph]

The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.

The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.

And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.

Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.

I had a therapist who wanted me to wear heavy make-up and a skirt so I found a female therapist who wore blue jeans, a tee shirt and sandals and I asked her if it was alright if I dressed like her and of course it was. As for being liberal with hormones, they can increase your chance of getting cancer so using them to weed out people might not be such a good idea.

You know, the more I hear about this, the more upset I become  .  How can this be stopped?  can this therapist be reported?  To the board perhaps?  This is totally wrong.  Therapists are there to guide not to tell you which color of makeup you should wear and what brand of jeans you should buy.  This is crazy really! sheesh!

tink

As you well know Tink any credible therapist would in no way try to influence the behavior of a patient if they are genuinely trying to evaluate in order to confirm a diagnosis.  And I would further add that it is just plain ludicrous.  Now I'm not saying that this didn't happen but if it did then we need to know the name of the therapist involved so that others can be warned that "the client was not satisfied with the experience".  Of course along with that we need proof that this happened and that it is not just hearsay.

I can just picture the therapist sitting with their client...

Client - "Dr I think that I'm a cold blooded killer.  All my life I've wanted to go out a shoot someone"

Therapist - "I can understand that you have this fear that you are going to kill some one, so what I want you to do is to go out and randomly shoot someone in the head to see if you fit with the profile of a cold blooded killer."

Therapy when done with credible medical professionals just doesn't work like that.

Steph

[Elizabeth]

The most recent version of SOC is not very unreasonable.

The important part is interpretation. e.g. some people have had therapists requiring them to wear heavy makeup and skirts to be female and other such things. The guidelines are used by some systems against some TS inviduals.

And for some people changing the treatment place would mean moving far away, so changing therapists is not always a realistic option.

Thus people end up ignoring the SOC. Personally I think the best way would be to be very liberal with hormones - that is a good way to weed out people that would be unhappy later out.

I had a therapist who wanted me to wear heavy make-up and a skirt so I found a female therapist who wore blue jeans, a tee shirt and sandals and I asked her if it was alright if I dressed like her and of course it was. As for being liberal with hormones, they can increase your chance of getting cancer so using them to weed out people might not be such a good idea.

You know, the more I hear about this, the more upset I become  .  How can this be stopped?  can this therapist be reported?  To the board perhaps?  This is totally wrong.  Therapists are there to guide not to tell you which color of makeup you should wear and what brand of jeans you should buy.  This is crazy really! sheesh!

tink

As you well know Tink any credible therapist would in no way try to influence the behavior of a patient if they are genuinely trying to evaluate in order to confirm a diagnosis.  And I would further add that it is just plain ludicrous.  Now I'm not saying that this didn't happen but if it did then we need to know the name of the therapist involved so that others can be warned that "the client was not satisfied with the experience".  Of course along with that we need proof that this happened and that it is not just hearsay.

I can just picture the therapist sitting with their client...

Client - "Dr I think that I'm a cold blooded killer.  All my life I've wanted to go out a shoot someone"

Therapist - "I can understand that you have this fear that you are going to kill some one, so what I want you to do is to go out and randomly shoot someone in the head to see if you fit with the profile of a cold blooded killer."

Therapy when done with credible medical professionals just doesn't work like that.

Steph

The problem is, there are too many out there that are enforcing their own personal view of what the SOC means. Sometimes it is way off base. The entire system is flawed. Humans are allowed to consent to all kinds of things that ruin their lives, and no one seems to care. Look how many people were talked into buying homes they could not afford with variable rate loans that the lenders knew was going to go up past the point where the homeowner could afford the payments. No one cared. Many of these people are going to lose everything because of it. They will have depression, loss of self esteem, bad credit, some will have lost their savings. Others will have breast implants that are way too big and will damage their body beyond the point of where they can ever look right again, even with corrective surgery. And who has not seen the clips of the bad face lifts that got infected or cheek implants that are so exaggerated that the person looks like a cartoon character.

We can drink alcohol until we poison our bodies and become addicted. Our 18 year old daughters can go have anal sex on film for money, most of whom will seriously regret it, and will be psychologically damaged forever as a result. We send our sons and daughters off to fight this immoral war where they have to see incredibly inhumane things and atrocities that leave them with post traumatic stress disorder. We send them to become killers and they do and they are damaged permanently by it.

All with no letters of permission. This is a ridiculous notion that the SOC are put in place for our protection. Let's do some tort reform, make it illegal to sue doctors who perform GRS/SRS, and let the buyer beware, just like all other cosmetic surgery. Why do we assume that everyone is too stupid to decide for themselves? In the end, that is what we do anyway. And there are still people getting the surgery who end up regretting it, even though it's a rather small number.

I believe that if people were allowed to decide for themselves, there would be no significant increase in the number of procedures done or done and regretted. The SOC make it too easy to blame someone else if one transitions and regrets it. We have seen it time and time again. The person who lied to the therapist is not held to account for their decisions. Instead the psychiatrist who wrote the letter is blamed. Even though the patient lied.

I believe if everyone had to make this decision by themselves, people would seek out better therapists and really make sure of what they are doing. You get a nose job and end up looking stupid (Rosanne Barr), no one blames the plastic surgeon. They blame the person who decided to have it done. If people had to sign a release holding the plastic surgeon harmless, there would be greater care taken in these decisions, than is currently being taken.

If there is no reason to lie to ones therapist, it's a lot harder to convince oneself. However for those who are transsexuals, the decision is not a hard one and does not require years of therapy and thousands of dollars of expenses. Ask yourself, of all the people you have met that desire surgery, how many of those would regret it if they had it? And even if they did regret it, how many of those would be any less happy than they already are?

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Lisbeth]

"Who are the inappropriate candidates?"  The ones who sue their health care providers after GRS.

[taru]

"Who are the inappropriate candidates?"  The ones who sue their health care providers after GRS.

So the problem is the US custom of sueing people for such things when unhappy afterwards.

[Dennis]

"Who are the inappropriate candidates?"  The ones who sue their health care providers after GRS.

So the problem is the US custom of sueing people for such things when unhappy afterwards.

Not just American in this case. I've seen suits in Australia and the UK as well.

Dennis

[tinkerbell]

Client - "Dr I think that I'm a cold blooded killer.  All my life I've wanted to go out a shoot someone"

Therapist - "I can understand that you have this fear that you are going to kill some one, so what I want you to do is to go out and randomly shoot someone in the head to see if you fit with the profile of a cold blooded killer."


Steph

ROFL 

Therapy when done with credible medical professionals just doesn't work like that.

Actually you're right as always, Steph.  It just sounds soooo bizarre.  True, if this indeed happened, that therapist needs to be reported to the board at once with the proper evidence for the allegations, of course. 


tink

[Berliegh]

Re: Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weeded out by the HBSC?

Answer: Charing Cross GIC, London, England, U.K....

[LynnER]

Inpart the HBSOC was developed to keep all the horror stories youve read from happening again... people who were simply over zellous crossdressers from being operated upon... its also to weed out people with personality disorders, and so on and so forth...  they have the right idea trying to make sure people are mentaly stable before going for the op...  but comeon, point out one TS... shoot... point out one anyone who is totaly mentaly stable... its not happening.

Also the western world places so much value on SEX and class...  they need to classify everything... if it dosnt have a name it dosnt exist...  why would a rock want to change itsself into dirt... they dont understand it.  If you dont understand something place a limit on it and force it into a cookie cutter patern you can kind of understand...  People in general fear change, and people in general like sex, and in general are more than happy with there own sex/gender...  why would anyone want to change that?

Well, you like being a boy... why do you like being a boy... and you cant use sex, privlage, power, or physique as part of your answer... same goes for girls....  Limit there answers and see how many answers you can actualy get.  They do the same to us with the HBSOC and make it so we can only answer in a certian way...  answer the question wrong and then *SHrugs*  anyways its really late and Im rambeling at this point so.... yeah.....

[tinkerbell]

WPATH SOC is a good idea.  It's a set of guidelines for competent professionals to use when evaluating and assisting transitioners.  The problem is that some professionals may be too rule bound or have agendas.  You, the transitioner, the client, the patient, are the leader in your transition.  You hire the pros to give you guidance and keep you out of trouble.

Very true, Karen.

ETHICAL GUIDELINES FOR PROFESSIONALS

WPATH provides comprehensive Ethical Guidelines concerning the care of patients with gender identity disorders. The new guidelines, which apply to all WPATH members, were adopted in November, 2000.

...and these are the guidelines:

http://www.wpath.org/Documents2/Ethics011105.pdf


tink

[Elizabeth]

Inpart the HBSOC was developed to keep all the horror stories youve read from happening again... people who were simply over zellous crossdressers from being operated upon... its also to weed out people with personality disorders, and so on and so forth...  they have the right idea trying to make sure people are mentaly stable before going for the op...  but comeon, point out one TS... shoot... point out one anyone who is totaly mentaly stable... its not happening.

Also the western world places so much value on SEX and class...  they need to classify everything... if it dosnt have a name it dosnt exist...  why would a rock want to change itsself into dirt... they dont understand it.  If you dont understand something place a limit on it and force it into a cookie cutter patern you can kind of understand...  People in general fear change, and people in general like sex, and in general are more than happy with there own sex/gender...  why would anyone want to change that?

Well, you like being a boy... why do you like being a boy... and you cant use sex, privlage, power, or physique as part of your answer... same goes for girls....  Limit there answers and see how many answers you can actualy get.  They do the same to us with the HBSOC and make it so we can only answer in a certian way...  answer the question wrong and then *SHrugs*  anyways its really late and Im rambeling at this point so.... yeah.....

Where are these people? The over zealous crossdressers who want to transition? The ones who's lives have been ruined? And how does that compare to the lives ruined by incompetent mental health care professionals doing insane things like making people wear skirts and makeup, as if this were some requirement to being female. I mean, we hear about these people that need protecting, but I just don't see them. Never have. All the crossdressers I ever talked to, the last thing they want is to lose their penis.

I think that is the point of this thread. Where are all these people that are so stupid they need protection from themselves? And is this protection justified in imposing itself on transsexuals who don't need to be protected from the decision to transition, to protect the alleged people that do?

Did you know that 1 in 100 gastric bypass patients die from the procedure? I was shocked to find this out when I researched it. This is still "experimental" surgery numbers, yet the news talks about it like it's no big deal now. No one needs a letter to get this surgery. You don't even have to be 18. And you want to talk about a lifetime commitment? There are many many foods one can never eat again. People fall into deep depressions following gastric bypass surgery. But still, no letter needed. And there are other choices, this is not the only solution to being overweight.

So I don't buy that our medical community is just making sure people don't ruin their lives. They don't care if people ruin their lives. Again, have a look at Michael Jackson. And who has not seen the pictures of all the other botched procedures. I am sorry, it's not the SOC that I have a problem with. It's being singled out because of strongly held beliefs of society. Rules to "protect"(limit) the people having the procedure.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[katia]

Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out by the HBSC?

those who really don't want to transition