Who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out by the HBSC???????

[Godiva]

Thundra:

Thank you for your support, and I agree with you.

They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.

But, I must ask who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out?

[/b]

In recent history in the United States, we sexual sterilized and forbidded the mentally retarded to marry and have children. JFK's sister, Rose Kennedy, met this fate. Up to the 1970s the laws of the in land in America allowed the forced, involuntary psychiatric reprogramming (Reparative Therapy) of homosexuals that were legally defined as mentally ill. This issue of inappropriate candidates harkens back to the philosophy of Eugenics and a master race of people.

Godiva

[Steph]

Thundra:

Thank you for your support, and I agree with you.

They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.

Blanket statements such as this do a disservice to the many reputable surgeons who follow ethical practices.  Granted there are those who would do anything you wanted to your body as long as you produced the appropriate funds, and I would personally steer clear of them.  Then there are patients who are fool hardy enough to want to buy their way into getting any surgeries they desired, and the surgeons should steer clear of these people.  And I am not so naive as to think there are not any surgeons out there who are in this game just for the money, hey of course its for the money, but there are surgeons who want to be sure that the person sitting before them, who they have probably never seen before, is dead certain about what is going to be done to them, otherwise the patient may simply end up dead later, after the surgery.

Of course surgeons need to to "cover their ass", I know that I would want to ensure that everything was OK if I were a surgeon and a patient presented them self to me asking me to perform life changing surgery.  I think they call that common sense.

But, I must ask who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out?

[/b]

In recent history in the United States, we sexual sterilized and forbidded the mentally retarded to marry and have children. JFK's sister, Rose Kennedy, met this fate. Up to the 1970s the laws of the in land in America allowed the forced, involuntary psychiatric reprogramming (Reparative Therapy) of homosexuals that were legally defined as mentally ill. This issue of inappropriate candidates harkens back to the philosophy of Eugenics and a master race of people.

Godiva

Lets see now....  I walk into the therapists office sit down and say "I've had it with living as a guy, I want to try the female gig out for a while, maybe I'll make a better go of it, after all when I dress up I really look like a girl and everyone tells me that I'm pretty good looking as well.  I've always had this fetish about dressing up in girls cloths and it's a real sexual turn on for me.  Money is no object I have a huge bank account all I need is a referral letter, get started on HRT so that I can grow breasts and I'll be outta here"....

Eugenics and the master race, I think there's paranoia in the air, but possibly I'm being a little cynical

Steph

[Godiva]

Steph:

I think there's paranoia in the air, but possibly I'm being a little cynical

Steph

I believe this response, in regards to me as an individual, to my very legitimate question by you as a Moderator and/or Administrator of this website has failed to demonstrate moderation. My purposes are to create a dialogue on important issues to the transsexual community, nothing esle. Please try not to make your responses to what I say or ask personal issues. Thank you.

Godiva

[Buffy]

I agree with Steph.

I think it is judgmental and divisive of us to even consider identifying any group of people who should be excluded from the HBSC. None of us are experts and none of us have a right to say who and who should not be eligible for treatment.

If we did we can then exclude anyone who is to tall, to small, has the wrong colour skin, disabled, on benefits, going to take 10 years, is married, that would be great ..leaving only those who can afford to transition because they are rich.

This is best left to the Physchiatrists, therapists and Medical professionals.

Buffy

[Steph]

Steph:

I think there's paranoia in the air, but possibly I'm being a little cynical

Steph

I believe this response, in regards to me as an individual, to my very legitimate question by you as a Moderator and/or Administrator of this website has failed to demonstrate moderation. My purposes are to create a dialogue on important issues to the transsexual community, nothing esle. Please try not to make your responses to what I say or ask personal issues. Thank you.

Godiva

My response was not directed at you in anyway, nor was it and attack, I merely suggest that using the words eugenics and master race is a little strong.

Steph

[taru]

If we pay for the surgery ourselves why should a letter be required?

There are lots of ways one can do harm to oneself. The definition of a "responsible" adult includes taking responsiblity for actions. Thus if someone wants SRS and are paying for it, it is their business and there should be none of this psych nonsense.

[cindianna_jones]

If we pay for the surgery ourselves why should a letter be required?

There are lots of ways one can do harm to oneself. The definition of a "responsible" adult includes taking responsiblity for actions. Thus if someone wants SRS and are paying for it, it is their business and there should be none of this psych nonsense.

Before long, you'd have individuals lining up suing the doctor for performing the surgery.  It is only prudent for a surgeon to rely on peers qualifying the patient's need for surgery.

The SOC also lends some credibility for us as we transition in society.  We can point to an established methodology and process which helps our employers and others understand what we are doing.  I will always encourage someone to start with a good and qualified counselor.

Now, that being said, if you don't want to join that club, it matters not to me.  We have our own lives to live and who better knows how we want to live them? We must suffer the consequences of our own actions no matter what we do.  I believe that we are ultimately responsible for our own lives.

For what it is worth, I've never met a qualified counselor that would tell a patient what to do. A patient needs to make her own decisions and follow through. 

I have to smile when I read of "gatekeepers in the transsexual community".  There is no "transsexual community" much less "gatekeepers".  I know that there are those who stand up for us.  But when was the last time you saw a "transsexual pride parade"?  Where are the old timers?  (Okay, I'm here, but there are very few who remain.)  There is no community.

There is no one standing in the way when you are considering life's decisions. As long as you remain within the law, there will be those who may deride, but you are free to follow your own path.

Party on.

Cindi

[tinkerbell]

They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.

I totally disagree with this statement.  While it is true that the HBSOC are there to protect the medical community from those "transsexual" people who later on may sue for malpractice, they are also there to ensure that a person who truly suffers from gender dysphoria get the necessary steps/guidance to begin and complete transition.

Hmmm...I have never met anyone who "purchased" their way through the HBSOC.  Why would anyone in their right mind do such a thing in the first place?  If a person says he/she suffers from unrelenting GID, following the guidelines of the HBSOC should be a walk in the park, shouldn't it?  why would this person need to bribe a gender therapist for a letter or access to treatment? 

I think there's paranoia in the air

Paranoia, lack of information, ignorance.  People who don't meet any of the criteria for GID/TS'im  but want to circumvent the system for whatever reasons and then have the audacity to sue the medical community when things are not as "pretty" as they thought they would be.  Does anyone see now why doctors/therapists/the medical community have to "cover their asses"?

tink

[Elizabeth]

Why was Michael Jackson allowed to do this, with no letter?



Why is it assumed that anyone can make their own decision about what is best for them, except when it comes to SRS? I have seen botched botox, botched tummy tucks, botched breast augmentation, botched face lifts and other botched plastic surgeries that have left people incredibly disfigured. We have kids getting plastic surgery. Why is it that everyone else can do whatever they want to their bodies and no one seems to care if they are making a mistake?

Why the huge double standard? It is not so much as I disagree with the SOC, as I disagree with the need for them. I have yet to meet a person who said they were denied the right to transition and so they didn't. I have however heard several who were denied and just went and got another Psychiatrist, told them what they wanted to hear, and got the letters.

I also would like to know where all these transsexuals are, that are getting turned away because they don't meet the SOC. I have yet to meet one person that has been prevented from transitioning because of the SOC. So? if it is not stopping anyone, what's the point, other than to make sure we have to spend a lot of money to transition.

I agree, these rules can only be in place to protect the medical community, not from us, but from the far right who thinks God doesn't make mistakes. Nothing else makes any sense, to me.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Jonie]

I believe all transsexuals should be allowed to have the SRS surgery they so desperately need, but you don't have to be transsexual to want to have this operation. If you're TS and are prepared for such a big change, there is a lot to process, you will no doubt be rewarded with the pleasures a well thought out life change can bring you. There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.

[Nero]

Why was Michael Jackson allowed to do this, with no letter?

OMG, ok catching my breath. I haven't laughed that hard in a while. thanks.

[Elizabeth]

...
There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.

So why don't we require persons to get checked out by a psychiatrist before all plastic or other life altering surgery, like vasectomy or hysterectomy, or tubes tied, or gastric bypass? And what about botox or collagen injections, breast implants. No one seems to care of mentally ill people are getting these surgeries because they think it will solve all their problems. For me the issue is singling us out, as if this is the only life altering surgery that a person can have and it should only be allowed if one meets a certain criteria, that incidentally is unproven or even studied for that matter. It's all just opinions.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Jonie]

...
There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.

So why don't we require persons to get checked out by a psychiatrist before all plastic or other life altering surgery, like vasectomy or hysterectomy, or tubes tied, or gastric bypass? And what about botox or collagen injections, breast implants. No one seems to care of mentally ill people are getting these surgeries because they think it will solve all their problems. For me the issue is singling us out, as if this is the only life altering surgery that a person can have and it should only be allowed if one meets a certain criteria, that incidentally is unproven or even studied for that matter. It's all just opinions.

Love always,
Elizabeth

You make some good points and have given me some things to think about, thanks.

[Jeannette]

GRS isn't plastic surgery.  It isn't the same having one's nose countoured as opposed to having a vaginoplasty because the latter targets one major change, indentity in the legal and anatomical aspects.  Legally, a person is still the same person after botox, collagen injections, hysterectomy, breast implants.  This isn't the case with GRS. The emotional aspect is even more profound after GRS.

[RebeccaFog]

Thundra:

Thank you for your support, and I agree with you.

They are there for the benefit of the surgeons, to cover their ass, not for the benefit of the patients. They don't even do what they are intended to do, weed out inappropriate candidates . Anyone with enough time and money, especially money, gets through.

But, I must ask who are the inappropriate candidates to be weed out?

[/b]

In recent history in the United States, we sexual sterilized and forbidded the mentally retarded to marry and have children. JFK's sister, Rose Kennedy, met this fate. Up to the 1970s the laws of the in land in America allowed the forced, involuntary psychiatric reprogramming (Reparative Therapy) of homosexuals that were legally defined as mentally ill. This issue of inappropriate candidates harkens back to the philosophy of Eugenics and a master race of people.

Godiva

    Going back to this thread opener, I would think the 'inappropriate' candidates are people like me who bounce around a lot before we understand that we are neither of you (genders).  If I didn't have to drag myself through the evaluation, I would have started HRT. It actually doesn't bother me because I've found my body sex doesn't matter to me, but I also would have continued to think I was female and I only had one course of action available to me; SRS.
    Turns out I'm not the right candidate for SRS. I'm sure I would have figured that out before actual surgery, but what if I had the money and the ability to just go get an operation?

    What is probably necessary is a method of getting true TSs through the system quickly while straining out the tweeners like myself.  Plus, you would want to catch the few people who mistakenly believe that they will simply make their lives better by changing sex. I'm sure these people are few and far between, but they need consideration too.
    I think this can be done by developing methods of determining who is a TS and who is an androgyne in the most efficient manner possible.
    Determining who is and who is not fit in terms of weeding out the mentally ill is beyond me.

[Elizabeth]

GRS isn't plastic surgery.  It isn't the same having one's nose countoured as opposed to having a vaginoplasty because the latter targets one major change, indentity in the legal and anatomical aspects.  Legally, a person is still the same person after botox, collagen injections, hysterectomy, breast implants.  This isn't the case with GRS. The emotional aspect is even more profound after GRS.

Says who? I don't believe that at all. Michael Jackson is clearly not the same person and I have seen people who have had botched plastic surgery and let me assure you, it is life altering and extremely traumatic. It's a matter of scale. Perhaps GRS is more profound for the Transsexual, but there are others who have cosmetic procedures that were extremely profound. You would have to show me some kind of science or study to convince me GRS is any more profound that say, reconstructive surgery for a burn patient or anyone that has had their face damaged. Bad surgery or bad decisions ruin people's lives. For some people a nose contour that everyone can see could be more profound to that person, than GRS that almost no one ever sees, to a transsexual. And as far as changing one's legal status of gender, who does that really affect anyway? Why should others have control over that too? Why should anyone not be allowed to choose for themselves, just like getting that nose job?

I mean, everyone thinks their problem is more important than anyone else's. I am not willing to say that and I see no evidence of it. I guess that is my problem with it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[rhonda13000]

I believe all transsexuals should be allowed to have the SRS surgery they so desperately need, but you don't have to be transsexual to want to have this operation. If you're TS and are prepared for such a big change, there is a lot to process, you will no doubt be rewarded with the pleasures a well thought out life change can bring you. There are those who because of mental illness are trying to run away from themselves by any means possible, they think with all their might that this surgery is the best answer to their problems, it's not. It is for their sake that such a careful and methodical process is necessary. They are lost and they need our help and understanding.

This statement says two things:

1) HBSOC cannot nor should not be universally, indiscriminately applied to all who are TS.

2) HBSOC should not, as much as I eschew it relative to my transition, be summarily and completely scrapped, IMHO.

Many need such guidance.

I do not.

And that is exactly what I am going to do: acquire GRS on my own initiative and funding.

[taru]

    I think this can be done by developing methods of determining who is a TS and who is an androgyne in the most efficient manner possible.
    Determining who is and who is not fit in terms of weeding out the mentally ill is beyond me.

What about people that are androgyne and transitioning?

Or transsexual inviduals having mental health issues like depression which is quite common with GID.

In the end if someone really wants to transition they will just tell what the psychs will want to hear. Having therapy available for those wanting it is good. But making it a requirement is stupid.

[Godiva]

Paranoia, lack of information, ignorance.  People who don't meet any of the criteria for GID/TS'im  but want to circumvent the system for whatever reasons and then have the audacity to sue the medical community when things are not as "pretty" as they thought they would be.  Does anyone see now why doctors/therapists/the medical community have to "cover their asses"?

tink

Tink:

The above sound quite judgmental, defensive, and angry. Please do not take anything that I say personally. Thank you for you understanding.

Your friend always.
Godiva

[RebeccaFog]

    I think this can be done by developing methods of determining who is a TS and who is an androgyne in the most efficient manner possible.
    Determining who is and who is not fit in terms of weeding out the mentally ill is beyond me.

What about people that are androgyne and transitioning?

Or transsexual inviduals having mental health issues like depression which is quite common with GID.

In the end if someone really wants to transition they will just tell what the psychs will want to hear. Having therapy available for those wanting it is good. But making it a requirement is stupid.

   It's fine with me if an androgyne wants some work done. My point is that not all androgynes understand our condition immediately and we think we are the opposite sex, when we are not. I'm sure that there are some androgynes who would like to have some surgeries.  They should be treated as androgynes; given the opportunity to understand their nature before making the decision. I only meant we should be weeded out in order to ascertain what our individual needs are.

   Also, when I said 'mental illness' I didn't mean anxiety or depression or OCD and that type of thing.  I meant schizophrenia and psychotic breaks and other serious illnesses that are beyond my understanding.
   I should have written, "there are some very serious mental conditions such as schizophrenia and psychosis that are beyond my understanding to make a casual statement in this post concerning the inherent capability of the individual to be treated with SRS and so I leave this subject alone".

   I am not for denying any person the treatment necessary to make them a whole person. I am only saying that there are some cases where the patient would benefit from a serious evaluation. I do not mean an evaluation of the person's worth. I mean an evaluation in which the patient & the doctor confirm that the treatment is desirable for the individual.


aloha