I'm wanting to go on HRT very soon, but I don't think I'll be ready to come out for a long while. I'm happy to just start to look a little more feminine while presenting as a man, until I'm ready (have to wait on my hair growing out and my job change anyway), and I don't think HRT is strong enough for people to really notice me changing, except in one area...
If I do develop breasts very quickly, what should I do to stay stealth? Would that mean having to wear binders until I go full time? Is that how everyone else here did it before presenting as female?
I'd like to present androgynously for the next two years, but if I have breasts then people will definitely suspect that I am actually transitioning, as opposed to just being/looking a little more feminine.
that is exactly how i feel about my transition but the London charing cross gender identity clinic have said you have to dress and present as female for at least 3 months before they will consider you for the HRT is what my therapist told me but thats on the NHS if you go private you should be able to do things at your own pace and not have to worry about going with there guidelines anyone correct me if I'm wrong
You'll find the breasts relatively easy to conceal for at least the first six months. Depending on their development it might be a bit more difficult beyond that time - I saw you mention elsewhere that you're in Melbourne so six to eight months from now will land you in Spring/Summer and those Melbourne summers can be very hot. Easy enough to conceal breasts under layers of clothes and jackets during winter... not so much with a tee shirt. I went stealth on HRT for nine months, had thought I'd make it to 12 before going full time but then decided I couldn't wait that long!
For me I went a year on HRT before I started presenting female and 19 months before going full time.
My breasts came in at about 8 months but when wearing baggy male clothing mostly hides them. I had a few people notice, but by then "boy mode" was turning into "I don't give a <euphemism for excrement>" mode. If I still wanted to, I'm sure that I could still pass as male.
I'm a believer that the effects of HRT can remain hidden for a long time unless you are "unlucky" enough to have vary dramatic results.
Quote from: Ms Grace on April 05, 2014, 01:05:26 AM
You'll find the breasts relatively easy to conceal for at least the first six months. Depending on their development it might be a bit more difficult beyond that time - I saw you mention elsewhere that you're in Melbourne so six to eight months from now will land you in Spring/Summer and those Melbourne summers can be very hot. Easy enough to conceal breasts under layers of clothes and jackets during winter... not so much with a tee shirt. I went stealth on HRT for nine months, had thought I'd make it to 12 before going full time but then decided I couldn't wait that long!
Grace what where you on just e? I ask as I have a family wedding in late November (our spring) and I've been told it's not about you it's about your sister, and in some of most of my cloathing you can tell something is going on.
Quote from: <3Ronnie<3 on April 05, 2014, 12:05:56 AM
that is exactly how i feel about my transition but the London charing cross gender identity clinic have said you have to dress and present as female for at least 3 months before they will consider you for the HRT is what my therapist told me but thats on the NHS if you go private you should be able to do things at your own pace and not have to worry about going with there guidelines anyone correct me if I'm wrong
Your therapist needs to have a read through the new RCP guidelines, the recommendation now is to allow HRT WITHOUT any FT requirement, and I'm sure that the NHS guidelines have been amended to follow suite.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/files/pdfversion/CR181.pdf
Quote from: Kaylee on April 05, 2014, 04:45:32 AM
Your therapist needs to have a read through the new RCP guidelines, the recommendation now is to allow HRT WITHOUT any FT requirement, and I'm sure that the NHS guidelines have been amended to follow suite.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/files/pdfversion/CR181.pdf
ok thats good news then i wouldn't want to start my RLE before I'm ready and confident enough
Quote from: immortal gypsy on April 05, 2014, 04:10:32 AM
Grace what where you on just e? I ask as I have a family wedding in late November (our spring) and I've been told it's not about you it's about your sister, and in some of most of my cloathing you can tell something is going on.
No, on Spiro and P as well. But I know some others only on E who feel they've had substantial growth after only six months. Thing is, everyone is different, and how their body responds to HRT, regardless of type and dosage, is different. You won't really know until you know. Maybe you should be checking out a nice flock for the wedding! :)
Quote from: Kaylee on April 05, 2014, 04:45:32 AM
Your therapist needs to have a read through the new RCP guidelines, the recommendation now is to allow HRT WITHOUT any FT requirement, and I'm sure that the NHS guidelines have been amended to follow suite.
Just to be clear - these are GUIDELINES not RULES. Each clinic is free to create its own framework depending on their staff, facilities and past experience.
Charing have had bad experiences in the past when giving people HRT early in the process. That is why they want to see a commitment to the process.
Quote from: <3Ronnie<3 on April 05, 2014, 12:05:56 AM
that is exactly how i feel about my transition but the London charing cross gender identity clinic have said you have to dress and present as female for at least 3 months before they will consider you for the HRT is what my therapist told me but thats on the NHS if you go private you should be able to do things at your own pace and not have to worry about going with there guidelines anyone correct me if I'm wrong
I am at Charing. I was there two days ago for a surgical referral so I know their process well. What they want is for you to commence the PROCESS of transition. Change your name, start to change records like bank records, NHS records and start to come out to people. They expect you to document these changes. They do not care what you wear. Having said that if you turn up for your hormone appointment with a beard to your belly-button and bovver boots then do not expect things to go well.
RLE is really about starting the process of change and making the commitment to YOURSELF. No one is expecting you to turn up in a glittery frock, 6" heels and blonde wig. You could "dress as female" by wearing ladies' trousers and a plain blouse and 99.9% of people would not even notice but you would know and it is an easy first step on the process.
At some point you have to face the world. Wait long enough and the hormones will get you to the "weird" stage where you are neither one thing or the other and neither gender role will work. You need to be ready for this. There will not be a magic day where you wake up looking passable. It happens slowly and you need to be prepared for that.
So glad we don't have that system in Australia...there's no way I would have wanted to change my name, out myself and start real life without at least seeing how or if the HRT would make a difference first.
Quote from: Ms Grace on April 05, 2014, 01:05:26 AM
You'll find the breasts relatively easy to conceal for at least the first six months. Depending on their development it might be a bit more difficult beyond that time - I saw you mention elsewhere that you're in Melbourne so six to eight months from now will land you in Spring/Summer and those Melbourne summers can be very hot. Easy enough to conceal breasts under layers of clothes and jackets during winter... not so much with a tee shirt. I went stealth on HRT for nine months, had thought I'd make it to 12 before going full time but then decided I couldn't wait that long!
I am in Melbourne so the coming summer would probably be the biggest concern if I was to start the HRT asap (which I'd like to do). I was thinking those embedded shirt-binders the boys often use might help in a pinch, but it still gets awfully hot in summer. I am a little worried though, since genetically the women in my family have quite large breasts, so I may develop them pretty quickly :/
Quote from: provizora2 on April 05, 2014, 06:56:42 AM
I am at Charing. I was there two days ago for a surgical referral so I know their process well. What they want is for you to commence the PROCESS of transition. Change your name, start to change records like bank records, NHS records and start to come out to people. They expect you to document these changes. They do not care what you wear. Having said that if you turn up for your hormone appointment with a beard to your belly-button and bovver boots then do not expect things to go well.
RLE is really about starting the process of change and making the commitment to YOURSELF. No one is expecting you to turn up in a glittery frock, 6" heels and blonde wig. You could "dress as female" by wearing ladies' trousers and a plain blouse and 99.9% of people would not even notice but you would know and it is an easy first step on the process.
At some point you have to face the world. Wait long enough and the hormones will get you to the "weird" stage where you are neither one thing or the other and neither gender role will work. You need to be ready for this. There will not be a magic day where you wake up looking passable. It happens slowly and you need to be prepared for that.
I'm really happy that doesn't seem to be a prerequisite in Australia. Although I understand the mentality, it still seems strange to make the patient conform to a specific ideal of femininity before allowing them to alter their biological make up. It's not like wearing dresses is genetic -_- I have felt like a woman my entire life, but I rocked a beard and boots pretty much day in and day out. It doesn't change the fact that I am a woman, and want my body to follow suit, but I don't think what I dress in has any real affect on that process being something you're ready for or not? If GID is a diagnosable condition, no amount of looking like a lumberjack will change that.
You have to love our medical system sometimes so frustrating but with something like this so wonderfully simple thou a little nerve racking at times
Quote from: Ms Grace on April 05, 2014, 05:36:26 AM
No, on Spiro and P as well. But I know some others only on E who feel they've had substantial growth after only six months. Thing is, everyone is different, and how their body responds to HRT, regardless of type and dosage, is different. You won't really know until you know. Maybe you should be checking out a nice flock for the wedding! :)
While I would love to the one family member I've told right now is already freaking out (there is a post that explains a bit more). Maybe I'll have to settle for a nice pants suit
*waves at Nattie from Sydney*
Nattie, I've been on low dose for about 2 years with no intention of transitioning. I'm sitting somewhere around AA to possibly A cup, but my rib cage is big enough that I can get away with it without binding. Careful selection of better quality T shirts/polos which are relaxed fit works fine. I do say that genetically, I'm from a family of washboards. If you start HRT, be deliberate about keeping doses low - you will get some feminisation regardless, but it may be slow enough that it's unoticable to everyone except yourself. Hopefully low doses will be enough to help you keep your sanity till you're ready for your next phase.
Other stuff I've gotten away with:
Most people won't pick up on electro/laser to the face. I tended to swell pretty badly so I tended to get massively long sessions on the afternoon before a long weekend (3 days recovery before going back to work yay!). If you're presenting male, people will just assume that you shave yourself very cleanly. It'll only crop up as an issue if you're on a road trip with the guys and you're the only one without stubble in the morning. :P
Body hair management is usually ok, most people don't peg on that either, same with eyebrows so long as you don't arch them too much.
Basically an andro presentation won't scream "I'm transitioning" so long as you present male with your body language/presentation - if you act in a masculine enough manner, they won't notice anything amiss.
I've got more detail about my experiences in my low dose thread which I updated a couple of weeks ago.
Quote from: Ms Grace on April 05, 2014, 07:04:39 AM
So glad we don't have that system in Australia...there's no way I would have wanted to change my name, out myself and start real life without at least seeing how or if the HRT would make a difference first.
The problem is that for a small, but significant, number of people, they get the changes of HRT and then cannot cope with those. It does not turn out as they expect and the medical fallout from these incidents takes up a lot of resource in an overstretched system.
However, we DO have private clinics here and they will prescribe very quickly if you pay them. It is not even that expensive around £150 every 3 months so people can chose.
Quote from: Nattie on April 05, 2014, 07:13:08 AMit still seems strange to make the patient conform to a specific ideal of femininity before allowing them to alter their biological make up. It's not like wearing dresses is genetic
Did you read any of what I said? I specifically said that
"They do not care what you wear".
My subsequent comment about beards and boots would apply in any health care system. If you turn up hoping to change your body from one gender to another, most shrinks/therapists would have an expectation that you would want to match your target gender. That is human nature. If you desire an "odd" appearance then they will be bound to investigate to ensure that you do not have some other issues that need sorting first.
Quote from: luna nyan on April 05, 2014, 07:17:21 AM
*waves at Nattie from Sydney*
Nattie, I've been on low dose for about 2 years with no intention of transitioning. I'm sitting somewhere around AA to possibly A cup, but my rib cage is big enough that I can get away with it without binding. Careful selection of better quality T shirts/polos which are relaxed fit works fine. I do say that genetically, I'm from a family of washboards. If you start HRT, be deliberate about keeping doses low - you will get some feminisation regardless, but it may be slow enough that it's unoticable to everyone except yourself. Hopefully low doses will be enough to help you keep your sanity till you're ready for your next phase.
Other stuff I've gotten away with:
Most people won't pick up on electro/laser to the face. I tended to swell pretty badly so I tended to get massively long sessions on the afternoon before a long weekend (3 days recovery before going back to work yay!). If you're presenting male, people will just assume that you shave yourself very cleanly. It'll only crop up as an issue if you're on a road trip with the guys and you're the only one without stubble in the morning. :P
Body hair management is usually ok, most people don't peg on that either, same with eyebrows so long as you don't arch them too much.
Basically an andro presentation won't scream "I'm transitioning" so long as you present male with your body language/presentation - if you act in a masculine enough manner, they won't notice anything amiss.
I've got more detail about my experiences in my low dose thread which I updated a couple of weeks ago.
Heyyy Luna, yes, I may speak to my GP/Therapist about a medium/low dosage once it gets to that point, so that my transition can be long enough that I can move at my own pace. I can easily act masculine, since I've been doing it my entire life to fit in. Yeeeeh beer, boobs, cars, sports, et cetera ::)
Body hair is a different story. I've trimmed my eyebrows just a tad, cleaning them up from the usual wild brushy state they used to be in, and my close friend picked it up straight away. He kept looking at me and saying, wow, you look really metro. You almost look gay... And I swear, they are still massive bushy eyebrows, I just trimmed them down a tiny amount. I'm not sure how much I'll be able to get away with, my friends seem pretty observant haha.
Quote from: provizora2 on April 05, 2014, 07:23:05 AM
If you turn up hoping to change your body from one gender to another, most shrinks/therapists would have an expectation that you would want to match your target gender. That is human nature. If you desire an "odd" appearance then they will be bound to investigate to ensure that you do not have some other issues that need sorting first.
I did read what you said, but you mentioned having to at least wear female trousers and a blouse, and I wasn't sure if that was more for the patient or the shrinks. If this is expected by the shrinks, it makes me a little uncomfortable. I think it's unfair to 'expect' a person who is transitioning to fit a certain mold they may have of femininity, that's all. If I wanted to wear a beard until I was passable, I think that should be up to me.
Quote from: provizora2 on April 05, 2014, 07:18:12 AM
The problem is that for a small, but significant, number of people, they get the changes of HRT and then cannot cope with those. It does not turn out as they expect and the medical fallout from these incidents takes up a lot of resource in an overstretched system.
I certainly understand that and it's important to make sure people are up to the immense stress of the process. I was on HRT previously for two years before backing out - a lot of that had to do with poor professional support but also because I was disappointed by almost zero breast growth. I still so much wanted to be a woman but I was severely depressed and didn't feel it was ever going to work. At least I had an out, had I been required to change my name two years earlier and out myself I would have done it just to jump through the hoops, but I would have felt trapped at that point two years later, possibly suicidal. My experience this time, and judging by many posts here it is the same for others too, that starting HRT first goes a long way towards reducing the dysphoria...maybe not for everyone, but it did for me. With that out of the way it makes one start to feel more in tune with their identified gender, the stress is reduced and makes the next step of real life experience seem more doable. This time it worked out better than I could have hoped. But if I'd been required to change name and out myself before I could start? I wouldn't have, just no way - and I would have been as miserable, if not more so, than I was a year ago. So yeah, some people don't cope - I didn't cope - but I wouldn't expect others to be required to "prove" themselves first because of that. There are a lot of hurdles along the way but a more supportive, less prescriptive, medical system would go a long way towards removing some of those barriers. :)
It also depends on the psychiatrist and you. If your beard is a 'beard' then there might not be a problem. However what ever method you choose for permanent hair removal as the song goes "it's going to take patience and time". So the sooner you start getting rid of it the better.
I am 10 months HRT. The first 9 months I was at 2/3 highest does of E and now I am on the highest dose of E.
I have breast growth I would say an A and I expect to eventually be a full B or C. It is spring here and I have some sports bras. The issue is a t-shirt will show a sports bra. So I guess I will need to wear striped shirts over the t-shirt this summer. Next summer I will need to consider how well I can look and make decisions on clothing based on looking good.
I started HRT in February and was a C cup by early May, at which point I ended up telling supervisors at work and moving up the date to transition there (I'd planned on August, but was full-time by the beginning of June). It's *not* recommended to use a binder on growing breast tissue as it can damage your breasts, so my choices were basically to try increasingly unsuccessfully to hide things or give up and come out. (I'm a 42DDD now, and was at least a 42D by the end of that year, so I wasn't going to be able to keep hiding.)
However, while I *was* keeping them under wraps, I had the most luck wearing a constrictive sports bra under a loose T-shirt with another loose overshirt over that. It managed to mostly conceal the shape, so that I looked like I was gaining weight all over instead of sticking out in the chest.
Also, although it was the boobs that drove me to reveal to people, I found out later that rumors had been going around at work that I was sick - my lower body shape and face had changed so drastically so fast that the general reaction was "thank goodness it's not something serious!" when my coworkers all found out.
Hi Nattie,
Stealth on HRT??? Yes, it is pretty easy to do. Other changes may out you before breasts though. You may feel you have triple Ds but they really aren't very big to the casual observer. It depends a bit on just what your male markers are. Voice is a huge thing along with hair and face changes. Face is the only one of those impacted by HRT much. I have a deepish voice and am reasonably bald, both huge male markers. To those who know me, putting a wig on is "the thing". To others, it takes more. Subtle changes over time are missed by those close to us but can be evident to strangers.
Think about what the reaction would be if your voice or hair style changed to become very feminine. You could be flat chested with a 5 o'clock shadow and be recognised as female, or at least seen as having something "not quite right".
I have just finished my last Melbourne summer presenting male. My breasts are visible and growing so next summer just isn't going to work. I may even begin to enjoy summer. I work in an office that requires business-casual (whatever that really is). Light coloured shirts are now pretty much out. Slim fit are now gone too. Actually I still wear one shirt that shows them clearly and nobody comments!! I wear fitting singlets more to cover my nipples but that too is a fail!
Electrolysis and my face don't really agree. I appeared at work every Monday - Wednesday for 2 years looking like I was suffering from a horrible skin disease and it was NEVER mentioned!!! I am looking a bit yukky today after yesterday's session but as I am almost finished, it isn't as bad as it used to be as the offending hairs are spread out.
At last...my point. People just don't seem to comment even if they notice. I am a manager in a specialist team and I am 51 (until tomorrow) so there isn't going to be a lot of mischief. Out and about though, I get looks and that is about all. Thought someone was staring yesterday at the shops but they were actually looking past me!! Don't need to get too paranoid! Half the time I just forget and get on with my day.
I have been on HRT for almost 6 months. I have always gone to both the psychiatrist and psychologist in my work attire (mens suit) and it doesn't seem to make any difference. They have never mentioned it at all. Voice therapy has been in andro-ish jeans and T shirts (all female) but without hair. They didn't care either. I even went into the Myer cosmetics dept last week in work clothes and my balding male head and was sat down and different foundation and concealer colours applied in the middle of the lunchtime rush! Loved it and very pleased with myself that I enjoyed it. Progress :eusa_clap:. My office is only across the road too so the chance of colleagues wandering by is reasonably high. Didn't think of that at the time though!
Much of this is between our ears and even if it isn't, our approach to dealing with it is also. Being in transition will be awkward. We can't expect otherwise.
Quote from: EmmaD on April 05, 2014, 06:48:45 PM
Hi Nattie,
Stealth on HRT??? Yes, it is pretty easy to do. Other changes may out you before breasts though. You may feel you have triple Ds but they really aren't very big to the casual observer. It depends a bit on just what your male markers are. Voice is a huge thing along with hair and face changes. Face is the only one of those impacted by HRT much. I have a deepish voice and am reasonably bald, both huge male markers. To those who know me, putting a wig on is "the thing". To others, it takes more. Subtle changes over time are missed by those close to us but can be evident to strangers.
Think about what the reaction would be if your voice or hair style changed to become very feminine. You could be flat chested with a 5 o'clock shadow and be recognised as female, or at least seen as having something "not quite right".
I have just finished my last Melbourne summer presenting male. My breasts are visible and growing so next summer just isn't going to work. I may even begin to enjoy summer. I work in an office that requires business-casual (whatever that really is). Light coloured shirts are now pretty much out. Slim fit are now gone too. Actually I still wear one shirt that shows them clearly and nobody comments!! I wear fitting singlets more to cover my nipples but that too is a fail!
Electrolysis and my face don't really agree. I appeared at work every Monday - Wednesday for 2 years looking like I was suffering from a horrible skin disease and it was NEVER mentioned!!! I am looking a bit yukky today after yesterday's session but as I am almost finished, it isn't as bad as it used to be as the offending hairs are spread out.
At last...my point. People just don't seem to comment even if they notice. I am a manager in a specialist team and I am 51 (until tomorrow) so there isn't going to be a lot of mischief. Out and about though, I get looks and that is about all. Thought someone was staring yesterday at the shops but they were actually looking past me!! Don't need to get too paranoid! Half the time I just forget and get on with my day.
I have been on HRT for almost 6 months. I have always gone to both the psychiatrist and psychologist in my work attire (mens suit) and it doesn't seem to make any difference. They have never mentioned it at all. Voice therapy has been in andro-ish jeans and T shirts (all female) but without hair. They didn't care either. I even went into the Myer cosmetics dept last week in work clothes and my balding male head and was sat down and different foundation and concealer colours applied in the middle of the lunchtime rush! Loved it and very pleased with myself that I enjoyed it. Progress :eusa_clap:. My office is only across the road too so the chance of colleagues wandering by is reasonably high. Didn't think of that at the time though!
Much of this is between our ears and even if it isn't, our approach to dealing with it is also. Being in transition will be awkward. We can't expect otherwise.
Thanks for that, it helps me a lot to know there are so many women going through this locally as well, though I suppose it shouldn't make a difference. I go past the myer in the city all the time, haha.
I'm really confused atm because now that I've become accustomed somewhat to the culture, reading through peoples posts here, and seeing so many youtube video transitions and documentaries, reading endlessly about it (its all I think about atm, I'm struggling to work haha) it is much easier for me to be me, but I have to remember that everybody I know isn't on the same path to self-acceptance that I am. I'm being desensitized to it, but honestly, before I accepted myself, my reaction to people like 'Lana' Wachowski coming out, or Eddie Izzard cross dressing, was right there with the norm. It's weird, it's strange, and it isn't normal, and I have to remember that's the mindset everyone else will come at me with. I wish everyone could be as accepting as all of you beautiful souls.
Yesterday my friend asked me why I seemed 'gay' in not so many words, and I shrugged and laughed, whereas in the past I would have given him a lot of male ->-bleeped-<- over it, trying to convince him of my manhood. This morning I've been dancing to aqua and no doubt while making breakfast, in very feminine ways, while singing in the singers key, instead of dropping octave as I'd usually do if... somehow... that kind of music was turned on (I would sing it begrudgingly to outward appearance). I am transitioning and I'm not even on HRT yet, and I'm not sure how much I'd want to hide this, because it feels so natural, but at the same time, I'm just afraid that my family and friends will condemn me. Stealth is seeming like a less appealing option but it would be 'just for everyone else', as far as I'm concerned, I'm just waiting on the hormones and the hair to grow out haha.
It helps to know that when I need to, I could present as a man and probably get away with it, even with a somewhat fem appearance, and maybe even with breasts. ^^
Quote from: provizora2 on April 05, 2014, 06:56:42 AM
I am at Charing. I was there two days ago for a surgical referral so I know their process well. What they want is for you to commence the PROCESS of transition. Change your name, start to change records like bank records, NHS records and start to come out to people. They expect you to document these changes. They do not care what you wear. Having said that if you turn up for your hormone appointment with a beard to your belly-button and bovver boots then do not expect things to go well.
RLE is really about starting the process of change and making the commitment to YOURSELF. No one is expecting you to turn up in a glittery frock, 6" heels and blonde wig. You could "dress as female" by wearing ladies' trousers and a plain blouse and 99.9% of people would not even notice but you would know and it is an easy first step on the process.
At some point you have to face the world. Wait long enough and the hormones will get you to the "weird" stage where you are neither one thing or the other and neither gender role will work. You need to be ready for this. There will not be a magic day where you wake up looking passable. It happens slowly and you need to be prepared for that.
omg thats a big relief for me at the moment i do go out in female clothes but not skirts or dresses and all that i go out looking more androgynous i wear makeup but not crap loads it looks natural and people say how much better i look :D and I've already started working on removing my body and facial hair along with growing my hair out so i don't have to wear a wig for long and I've already come out to my family and friends not how i wanted to but they all know id like the HRT to show changes before i go full time but if i went full time before HRT were i live i would get beaten up or worse its not really a nice place to live even if your a cis gendered male or female. and for the time when i won't look either gender is just a step we all have to take and I'm not looking forward to it but i know i have to do it then i will one day be as brave and as confident as all of the beautiful ladies on this site :). thank you for the reply i found it very helpful
My experience with this has been interesting. I am not full-time at work yet however everybody knows about me and i will be going FT in a month or so. I would say that we fly under the radar less than we think we do with changes. When i saw people i had not seen in a month or two they definitely saw changes in my face and skin. Many people really thought I looked different and some did not even recognize me- huh! and they could not figure it out. This was dozens of people both men and women.
When i came out at work the number of responses i received stating we could see changes and you where looking different BUT " We did not want to say anything!" was eye opening and here I really thought i was flying under the radar. I was not presenting female other than growing my hair out and my chest is just now starting to show a bit that i have to chose tops more carefully.
So i would say YMMV and you may not be as stealth as you hope to be, I sure was not
I suppose this is the path I have chosen. Honestly, it doesn't work very well in my case. It seems the only person I'm in stealth with is myself. I feel like everyone knows and can tell. Even if they can't tell, they are aware something is up or different about me. I'm getting used to be looked at and whispering being made about me. To be honest, it really sucks. It makes me feel so bad. Then again, most people are really nice and I've noticed that the world has become much friendlier with me for the most part. There comes a point (for most of us) where people will know and you are more andro than male or female looking. For example, I'm not really able to be a convincing guy anymore, but at the same time I don't feel I'm close to passing either. I think the awkward in between stage is inevitable to some degree and that's what makes "stealth" while transitioning almost impossible for most of us. You can try to hide the fact that your transitioning as much as possible, but people will guess or discover in time. It's really not as simple as presenting male one day and female the next. That was my initial strategy and what I had hoped for, but it's so much more complicated than that. The changes are progressive and people will notice them.
Sorry if this post is upsetting in anyway. I just don't want to give anyone false expectations that they can keep it secret when the reality is that it isn't that simple. I've kind of learned this the hard way, so that's why I wanted to share with you.
Quote from: learningtolive on April 06, 2014, 10:46:09 AM
It seems the only person I'm in stealth with is myself.
Yup! This definitely describes my experience. Your walking around in guy mode comments also resonated with me as I am finding the same thing , lot's of staring and mostly by women.
Quote from: Erica_Y on April 06, 2014, 10:30:40 AM
My experience with this has been interesting. I am not full-time at work yet however everybody knows about me and i will be going FT in a month or so. I would say that we fly under the radar less than we think we do with changes. When i saw people i had not seen in a month or two they definitely saw changes in my face and skin. Many people really thought I looked different and some did not even recognize me- huh! and they could not figure it out. This was dozens of people both men and women.
When i came out at work the number of responses i received stating we could see changes and you where looking different BUT " We did not want to say anything!" was eye opening and here I really thought i was flying under the radar. I was not presenting female other than growing my hair out and my chest is just now starting to show a bit that i have to chose tops more carefully.
So i would say YMMV and you may not be as stealth as you hope to be, I sure was not
Quote from: learningtolive on April 06, 2014, 10:46:09 AM
I suppose this is the path I have chosen. Honestly, it doesn't work very well in my case. It seems the only person I'm in stealth with is myself. I feel like everyone knows and can tell. Even if they can't tell, they are aware something is up or different about me. I'm getting used to be looked at and whispering being made about me. To be honest, it really sucks. It makes me feel so bad. Then again, most people are really nice and I've noticed that the world has become much friendlier with me for the most part. There comes a point (for most of us) where people will know and you are more andro than male or female looking. For example, I'm not really able to be a convincing guy anymore, but at the same time I don't feel I'm close to passing either. I think the awkward in between stage is inevitable to some degree and that's what makes "stealth" while transitioning almost impossible for most of us. You can try to hide the fact that your transitioning as much as possible, but people will guess or discover in time. It's really not as simple as presenting male one day and female the next. That was my initial strategy and what I had hoped for, but it's so much more complicated than that. The changes are progressive and people will notice them.
Sorry if this post is upsetting in anyway. I just don't want to give anyone false expectations that they can keep it secret when the reality is that it isn't that simple. I've kind of learned this the hard way, so that's why I wanted to share with you.
Thank you both for the honesty, it was important for me to hear another perspective on this. I've been tossing up between stealth and 'coming out' about the transition with most people before I start HRT and without going full time (so everyone just knows my intention) and both your posts have made that idea seem like a better course of action than pretending nothing is happening and trying to hide the process from people. Who knows, maybe being open about it with people would actually make them more accepting? (I have no evidence to support this claim, haha).
I get looks at work, my hair is awkward (not cut for 13 months), my face has changed some and I have had a lot of comments about hair regrown. I have had comments about being happy and not being angry. I am stealth but people ask questions. I have to admit I like the questions now, especially about looking younger.
I represented Pride@XXX and handed out LGBT literature in a lobby of a high rise building at work. I was scared and frightened at first but felt so good after a lot of coworkers saw me and I am out.
These different perspectives are really useful. I guess you actually end up with an approach that works for you.
My worry is that if I had come out at the start of HRT, I may then have been subject to whispering about a lack of change or whether something is a change. What if it all falls over or takes years? So not for me. However, if the "noise" gets to be too much, I will get the HR process going. I am prepping that now in case I need to move quickly. Hope they have done this or seen it before.
You might be surprised at what people notice. I started earlier this year and have had two punters at work already ask me if I'm transitioning (one a regular the other I just saw that day). Now my work shirt is one to two sizes too big for me so it's not like I'm wearing tight clothing and I haven't noticed any changes in my face yet, so something showed
Yes;
Its suprising how some people do notice things.I am 12 months into HRT again and with very low T in my system, feminization has been steady, although a little slow. Recently I met up with some interstate friends who haven't seen me for about a year. One guy about my age, commented that I looked really good and very fit. (Not sure how he worked that out as I am still too much overweight), but he went onto to say that I look younger. Then the following day I met up with a couple and their 22 year old daughter. They all commented on how good I looked with the wife saying that my complexion looked great. Then the daughter insisted on giving me a double cheek to cheek kiss and hug. She whispered ...your skin is so soft and I love your eyebrows... in my ear so maybe she guessed. She is a Surgical Nurse.
Then just last week, a couple of the guys in my office (where I still present as male), commented that they had never seen me in jeans before and both commented that jeans really suited me. I was wearing my womens high waisted skinny jeans (remember they button up differently and can be quite tight in the crotch, but luckily after so much HRT, down there is now quite small, almost unnoticeable.
I have noticed that some women friends who don't know that I am in transition have been looking at me slightly different, one even commenting last week that I seemed much more relaxed and calm and said that I seem to be walking more gracefully. I laughed...actually a giggle. I was also watching a movie recently with some friends and there was a sad bit and then one of the girls noticed that I had tears streaming down my face. Again other women seem to notice these things as the changes happen.
So there are a whole lot of subtle changes. My therapist told me she says that now with oestrogen the dominant hormone in met body that I ill be giving off a lot of female phemerones and starting to smell differently more of a female musky scent that will be noticeable to men. There is no doubt in my mind that things seem different, not just physically but emotionally and mentally as well, sort of like the brain getting re-wired.
So whilst my boobs and nipples are starting more and more to be evident with a lot of breast tissue on the side, so I too now need to wear a sports bra all the time, but when I wear one of my sexy Playtex underwire Wonderbra and Panties a friend says that I am looking very nice indeed with a genuine cleavage (I am close to 44C), I really think that it is the other things that probably give us away.
Next month I expect to be in my UK house, so it is going to be interesting how people that know me there see and notice the changes.
I must work with idiots or I am not any changing. Probs both! My son just said "you got tits" while wife said "not much apart from the boobies" so there. Phew! Thought I was a deluded fool for a minute :icon_weirdface:
My breasts are growing, B cup now & I'm planning to just live full time this spring/summer. My only concern is facial hair & we are zapping away asap to help clean up more areas of my face. Body hair has all been removed with a nice system called NuFree & my electro lady will keep me smooth this summer as she also zaps facial hair.
So I'm going to finally live free for a change. No stealth here any more.
I have a family wedding to go to in the Australian spring. If I can stay reasonably stealth till after then I'll be one happy lassie. So please body slow down for now just a little bit
I went to a family wedding a couple of weeks ago, 18 months HRT, The last wedding was two years ago. I have had huge facial/body changes and am a 34d. Not a word from anyone, I'm beyond stealth, I'm invisible.
The only comment I got was from my niece who said I should put on one of the comedy blonde wigs on ... no wait a minute I see you're already wearing one. (it was for a photo booth)
I did wear a too tight strappy top under my shirt to cope with the hugging that goes on these days.
Quote from: sandrauk on April 07, 2014, 06:12:44 AM
I went to a family wedding a couple of weeks ago, 18 months HRT, The last wedding was two years ago. I have had huge facial/body changes and am a 34d. Not a word from anyone, I'm beyond stealth, I'm invisible.
The only comment I got was from my niece who said I should put on one of the comedy blonde wigs on ... no wait a minute I see you're already wearing one. (it was for a photo booth)
I did wear a too tight strappy top under my shirt to cope with the hugging that goes on these days.
Cool, that's funny. Have a great day GF.
Quote from: FrancisAnn on April 07, 2014, 06:22:44 AM
Cool, that's funny. Have a great day GF.
Yeah, she wasn't being nasty and it made me laugh too, she's pretty nice.
Quote from: Nattie on April 04, 2014, 11:08:15 PM
I'm wanting to go on HRT very soon, but I don't think I'll be ready to come out for a long while. I'm happy to just start to look a little more feminine while presenting as a man, until I'm ready (have to wait on my hair growing out and my job change anyway), and I don't think HRT is strong enough for people to really notice me changing, except in one area...
If I do develop breasts very quickly, what should I do to stay stealth? Would that mean having to wear binders until I go full time? Is that how everyone else here did it before presenting as female?
I'd like to present androgynously for the next two years, but if I have breasts then people will definitely suspect that I am actually transitioning, as opposed to just being/looking a little more feminine.
I can still pass as a guy despite b being on hrt for over three years. Maybe it is because i started kind of late, but I can still pass as a guy. That said, I pass as a gay guy more than anything.
Quote from: HoneyBunny on April 09, 2014, 06:30:47 PM
I can still pass as a guy despite b being on hrt for over three years. Maybe it is because i started kind of late, but I can still pass as a guy. That said, I pass as a gay guy more than anything.
Having seen your photos I find that hard to believe, haha. I'm 26, so I'm starting pretty late as well, which may mean it takes much longer for the hormones to feminize me (hopefully they still
do though).
That being said, on the topic of this thread, I'm already feeling anxious/impatient about coming out, and I've only been out to myself for just over two weeks. I don't know how so many of you stay in to your friends and family for so many years, it must be a real struggle. I don't want to go full time or anything (I won't pass at all) but I do want people to know about my transition, in the very least, provided they're supportive.
Quote from: judithlynn on April 06, 2014, 10:39:55 PM
Yes;
Its suprising how some people do notice things.I am 12 months into HRT again and with very low T in my system, feminization has been steady, although a little slow. Recently I met up with some interstate friends who haven't seen me for about a year. One guy about my age, commented that I looked really good and very fit. (Not sure how he worked that out as I am still too much overweight), but he went onto to say that I look younger. Then the following day I met up with a couple and their 22 year old daughter. They all commented on how good I looked with the wife saying that my complexion looked great. Then the daughter insisted on giving me a double cheek to cheek kiss and hug. She whispered ...your skin is so soft and I love your eyebrows... in my ear so maybe she guessed. She is a Surgical Nurse.
Then just last week, a couple of the guys in my office (where I still present as male), commented that they had never seen me in jeans before and both commented that jeans really suited me. I was wearing my womens high waisted skinny jeans (remember they button up differently and can be quite tight in the crotch, but luckily after so much HRT, down there is now quite small, almost unnoticeable.
I have noticed that some women friends who don't know that I am in transition have been looking at me slightly different, one even commenting last week that I seemed much more relaxed and calm and said that I seem to be walking more gracefully. I laughed...actually a giggle. I was also watching a movie recently with some friends and there was a sad bit and then one of the girls noticed that I had tears streaming down my face. Again other women seem to notice these things as the changes happen.
So there are a whole lot of subtle changes. My therapist told me she says that now with oestrogen the dominant hormone in met body that I ill be giving off a lot of female phemerones and starting to smell differently more of a female musky scent that will be noticeable to men. There is no doubt in my mind that things seem different, not just physically but emotionally and mentally as well, sort of like the brain getting re-wired.
So whilst my boobs and nipples are starting more and more to be evident with a lot of breast tissue on the side, so I too now need to wear a sports bra all the time, but when I wear one of my sexy Playtex underwire Wonderbra and Panties a friend says that I am looking very nice indeed with a genuine cleavage (I am close to 44C), I really think that it is the other things that probably give us away.
Next month I expect to be in my UK house, so it is going to be interesting how people that know me there see and notice the changes.
I read and devoured this. I love it. I'm registering the same hints from people that they're noticing something is different and I'm giddy that I have this power.
I love what I see in the mirror.
I think I am stealthy at least co workers don't say anything other than I look young ( Im late 30s most thought I was early 20s ). Work is relaxed so I just tend to wear jeans and a looser button down shirt with a tshirt underneath. I also wear a sports bra since they are getting a bit noticeable. I seem to get a lot more looks now but I can't really read it since I'm looking more and more feminine but I am in so cal so with medium length hair and earrings I look like a surfer too. I'll wear some androgynous stuff on occasion. The looser/baggy shirts definitely help conceal breast growth although I think I'm to the point where it almost seems obvious.
I do kinda laugh at work though when the girls want me to lift something. My arms were never large to begin with and now they are like sticks and I struggle to lift like a water jug onto the dispenser or move heavier equipment. I actually joke that they are probably stronger and they just look at me odd. I actually plan to come out around the time I get ffs which will also be 1.5 years on hrt and a little over a year at full dosages.
Nattie,
I started a diet six months ago and HRT four months ago.. also have not had a hair cut in six months... I have lost from 240 to177 and I am not recognizable.. so it depends on the person..
For me the mental and physical changes have totally changed my persona and I am getting ready for hair removal. I was told by a MTF friend that some girls think they can be stealth but the urge to socially transition gets pretty strong for some. That has totally happened to me.
For me I don't like acting like a guy and Its getting harder if not impossible to be manly. For me, being girly came a heck of a lot easier than i ever thought it could.
Please do therapy, no way I could navigate this without a therapist. I still try to question my decision to do this... because for me I am losing a wonderful wife and life just to be who I am..
Just be prepared to be a woman if you start HRT.. its a powerful thing and if you are truly trans there may be no going back.
I know because I have more than one time said this is it I am not going to do that then wake up the next morning and I am in girl mode totally..and loving the change to my body.
Susan's is a great place to be and there are so many girls here that can help you.. good luck
Carrie
QuoteI'm wanting to go on HRT very soon, but I don't think I'll be ready to come out for a long while. I'm happy to just start to look a little more feminine while presenting as a man, until I'm ready (have to wait on my hair growing out and my job change anyway), and I don't think HRT is strong enough for people to really notice me changing, except in one area...
If I do develop breasts very quickly, what should I do to stay stealth? Would that mean having to wear binders until I go full time? Is that how everyone else here did it before presenting as female?
I have the same worries on all the above. The NHS won't prescribe a low dose of HRT unless I come out at work and change all my documentation first, so basically I've been asked to socially transition before any intervention of any kind. Sadly, this is exactly the scenario I wanted to avoid. Anywho, regarding breast development, they're advocating that it would be highly unlikely to be able to take low-dose for more than a few weeks before the physical effects are noticable. I want to make a post about this, as its all a major concern.
I'd love to know who's been able to pull off stealth HRT and for how long. :)
Quote from: Nattie on April 09, 2014, 07:28:16 PM
Having seen your photos I find that hard to believe, haha. I'm 26, so I'm starting pretty late as well, which may mean it takes much longer for the hormones to feminize me (hopefully they still do though).
That being said, on the topic of this thread, I'm already feeling anxious/impatient about coming out, and I've only been out to myself for just over two weeks. I don't know how so many of you stay in to your friends and family for so many years, it must be a real struggle. I don't want to go full time or anything (I won't pass at all) but I do want people to know about my transition, in the very least, provided they're supportive.
Seriously, age isn't the biggest hinderance people make it out to be. There are plenty of passable older women out there that have started much older than you. In the grand scheme of things, people in our age bracket (I'm 25 and started at 24) are relatively early transitioners. So don't get too discouraged because hormones can still work despite your age. It depends on many other factors anyway.
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on April 15, 2014, 03:35:07 PM
I'd love to know who's been able to pull off stealth HRT and for how long. :)
2 years low dose and counting. :)
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on April 15, 2014, 03:35:07 PM
I'd love to know who's been able to pull off stealth HRT and for how long. :)
I managed a year on a semi-skimmed dose, then 5 months full fat. I probably could of lasted in stealth at work a bit longer, but just couldn't.
I was doing laser and taking HRT, Had long hair already and a pretty androgynous face to begin with. Within a few months, I couldn't go stealth anymore. Even with my male voice, people thought I was a girl. It happened VERY fast, perhaps even too fast! ;D
Hey everyone, thanks for the replies. I see that male fail can come early, but that a lot of it can be down to presentation, with physical effects hideable. The only physical attribute that I feel would be almost impossible to conceal would be breasts and hips which from what most women on this site say can take many months even on low dose.
If it so happened that my face feminized then I'd be more inclined to present as female, however if facial feminization is minimal but body fat deposits are overt, then that would pose a massive issue, as I'd therefore prefer to present as male as facial feminization is -socially- the most important Feature for passing.
All in all of I'd prefer to do stealth as male until it's impossible for even the most cynical cos person to believe I'm maab. Of course, that is probably an impossibility for me due to my physical features and as I prefer non binary presentation. Hence why is. Be looking at going stealth on low dose for as long as possible.
Any thoughts on this or experience with such a plan? :)
Quote from: provizora2 on April 05, 2014, 06:56:42 AM
I am at Charing. I was there two days ago for a surgical referral so I know their process well. What they want is for you to commence the PROCESS of transition. Change your name, start to change records like bank records, NHS records and start to come out to people. They expect you to document these changes. They do not care what you wear. Having said that if you turn up for your hormone appointment with a beard to your belly-button and bovver boots then do not expect things to go well.
RLE is really about starting the process of change and making the commitment to YOURSELF. No one is expecting you to turn up in a glittery frock, 6" heels and blonde wig. You could "dress as female" by wearing ladies' trousers and a plain blouse and 99.9% of people would not even notice but you would know and it is an easy first step on the process.
At some point you have to face the world. Wait long enough and the hormones will get you to the "weird" stage where you are neither one thing or the other and neither gender role will work. You need to be ready for this. There will not be a magic day where you wake up looking passable. It happens slowly and you need to be prepared for that.
Yep this is pretty how much I've understood it as well. I've been speaking to people on ->-bleeped-<-'s UK transgender section and it does seem to be more of a case of showing a commitment. So things like name change, telling friends, family etc. It does not mean dressing up in a skirt and high heels anymore.
To be honest I think if they did still do that, most people would continue to just self medicate for the 6-12 months leading up to their GIC appointment.
Quote from: "I'm Stella Stanhope, and that's why I drink". on April 17, 2014, 02:51:18 AM
Hey everyone, thanks for the replies. I see that male fail can come early, but that a lot of it can be down to presentation, with physical effects hideable. The only physical attribute that I feel would be almost impossible to conceal would be breasts and hips which from what most women on this site say can take many months even on low dose.
If it so happened that my face feminized then I'd be more inclined to present as female, however if facial feminization is minimal but body fat deposits are overt, then that would pose a massive issue, as I'd therefore prefer to present as male as facial feminization is -socially- the most important Feature for passing.
All in all of I'd prefer to do stealth as male until it's impossible for even the most cynical cos person to believe I'm maab. Of course, that is probably an impossibility for me due to my physical features and as I prefer non binary presentation. Hence why is. Be looking at going stealth on low dose for as long as possible.
Any thoughts on this or experience with such a plan? :)
It may be harder then you might think, (not impossible just harder). When going stealth make sure you can switch you whole persona (voice, posture, stance, mannerisms ect) over from guy to girl mode when required. A while after my second attempt at transitioning while my body showed no physical effects of the hormones, one of my local drinkers recognized what I was going through, by the way I carried myself. Yes he did have understanding of transgender issues but it is something you should be aware of.
4 months HRT and not been busted yet :P
Just gotta sort my voice out D:
QuoteI managed a year on a semi-skimmed dose, then 5 months full fat.
Quote4 months HRT and not been busted yet :P
QuoteI can still pass as a guy despite b being on hrt for over three years
Thanks for the replies everyone :) I am genuinely pleased that you all are happy with where you're at and where your going, though.
But, why the bloody hell is the NHS forcing me to do RLT and socially transition pre-HRT, on the grounds that it'll be impossible to hide low-dose HRT for even a few weeks???
I'm getting increasingly annoyed by what's been asked of me, as it sounds like what the NHS are saying to me is likely to be cast-iron bull->-bleeped-<-, and I'm being forced to do stuff that our community was asked to do back in the 90's when health professionals had no idea how to effectively deal with trans* people.
I'm 29 years of age, not 19! I ain't gonna change physically that much on HRT over a short time, let alone whilst on a low-dose.
It really depends on what you think is going to be the least stressful and the best for you.
So I've done the whole androgynous thing in middle school through college. I'd totally recommend it for people that have concerns about how people will perceive you. I'm 30 now, and I wish I would have had the courage to go further, sooner. I've started back down this path and I am going to stay stealth, in my professional life, as long as I can. I am a bit concerned that after I start hormones(June hopefully), I might not be able to hide my breasts, all the women in my family are tall stick people that are very well endowed. At the end of the day, that's what I'm doing.
As for your voice, check this playlist out, I practice it when I'm in the shower and in the car and every weekend. Short of the South Korean voice feminization surgery, it's the best I've found. http://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC5375389210FC490
This is just what I'm doing, at the end of the day it's really about minimizing your stress. If you stress out too much trying to conceal your change, it might be harder than if you just came out.
As a side note, another reason I'm going stealth is because my boss is a strict Mormon so I'm looking for a new job as we speak. Hopefully I'll find one before my girls fill out, I don't need him to tell me how I'm going to hell - because I'm totally going to heaven. ;P
i started hrt when i was 19-20 (my breasts grew a bit) and when i got my first job a year later, i still had very short hair & i had to use the bandage to tie around my breasts (just like tomboy did to hide their breasts) LOL although i look like a fem gay boy , it worked & noone seemed to care because i got my job done (in Airlines industry)
Quote from: luna nyan on April 15, 2014, 07:52:18 PM
2 years low dose and counting. :)
nearly 3 years on low dose hrt - only issue is that folk that I have not seen in a while think that I look between 10 and 15 years younger than I should. Feeling pleased. Breast growth and fat redistribution is not that obvious if I wear loose clothing, so not yet clocked.
Aisla
Quote from: Aisla on April 22, 2014, 04:32:42 AM
nearly 3 years on low dose hrt - only issue is that folk that I have not seen in a while think that I look between 10 and 15 years younger than I should. Feeling pleased. Breast growth and fat redistribution is not that obvious if I wear loose clothing, so not yet clocked.
Aisla
I have the same issue. Bumped into some folks I haven't seen in a while and they think I've had some sore of procedure done. If only they knew. :P
Quote from: Kova V on April 22, 2014, 02:24:07 AM
As a side note, another reason I'm going stealth is because my boss is a strict Mormon so I'm looking for a new job as we speak. Hopefully I'll find one before my girls fill out, I don't need him to tell me how I'm going to hell - because I'm totally going to heaven. ;P
"At the gates of heaven, St. Peter greeted 3 people on their way into heaven.
They were a TS Woman, and 2 ministers.
St. Peter Chatted with them for awhile, then said to the ministers
I'm sorry gentlemen, but I have to inform you that you've got to spend
some time in hell to pay for your sins. They groaned but accepted it,
until, ST.Peter said to the lady, you my dear can go right on into heaven.
Well those minsters had a snippy fit, They Complained to St.Peter,
wondering why they as representatives of god had to go to hell to pay for
their sins, but the woman was allowed right in!!!!! :-(
Well, St. Pete looked right at them and said
"But Gentlemen, She has already been through
Hell on Earth!!""