Split this from the other thread. I didn't handle some other threads well and need to explain:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163320.msg1405275.html#msg1405275
Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 02:48:36 PM
You post at your own risk, even on a support site.
Imagine being over 25 and hearing some of the things said around here from time to time.
The internets can take some thick skin to handle, just like real life.
If you only wish to confirm your own beliefs, do not ask anyone else questions.
Is that a reference to me? :laugh:
To be fair, I was a little too blunt about it. And I feel really bad about it. But I and many girls do get that message beaten into them (not literally). I don't want to derail the thread and I feel really awful about the way I presented it. But I really did hear and get the strong message at 18 that it was all downhill from there. And 25? Old. 30? Might as well be dead. I was being sarcastic in a lot of my posts. And I don't think I conveyed the message I was trying to - that this ageism against women is very limiting and disgusting. And I hate it. I can't pretend this wasn't programmed into me though.
See, this is just a continuing prevailing cultural problem, though, where girls are constantly judging their own self-worth on whether others think they're pretty or not. And that problem spills over into these vanity threads. Again, why are we not having these same issues with the FtM "Do I Pass?" threads? Doesn't that tell you something there? Maybe the MtF community, and females in general, just need to learn more that there's more to life and more to their self-worth than being pretty. That is really what we should be focusing on here. Why is it that when a girl whines about her problems, one of the first things that always comes up is that she feels "ugly?"
Come on, girls, grow some self-esteem for God's sake! Are we seriously going to close down a thread just because we're so emotionally fragile that a simple negative experience with our appearance is enough to make us question our very worth as human beings?
Maybe we need a "fight the beauty industry, patriarchal culture, and its objectifying standards of feminine worth" thread. Or maybe a "You Did Fabulous, Darling!" thread where people celebrate their triumphs and accomplishments that have nothing to do with beauty or passability.
We focus way too damned much on our appearance. Just saying.
My inner feminist is seriously screaming out in frustration at all of this constant drama.
Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 03:35:16 PM
If only sarcasm translated better into the written form...
I know. And I'm crying now just as when I read Carrie's reply to that other thread. Because I feel so bad about not handling it well. These issues - they're emotional for me. Because this is what I faced as a girl. And it was horribly and maybe lastingly damaging. I was ranting. When I realized it had all been taken the wrong way and that I had actually made women here feel bad? Believe me that I hated myself and cried and cried and cried.
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 03:43:00 PM
I know. And I'm crying now just as when I read Carrie's reply to that other thread. Because I feel so bad about not handling it well. These issues - they're emotional for me. Because this is what I faced as a girl. And it was horribly and maybe lastingly damaging. I was ranting. When I realized it had all been taken the wrong way and that I had actually made women here feel bad? Believe me that I hated myself and cried and cried and cried.
Sorry, FA... my intent wasn't to hurt either. I just REALLY have a personal pet peeve about society de-valuing women if they're not young and pretty, and trans women questioning their worth after a certain age. So my inner feminist just got kind of ranty back there...
I'm serious, all through high school and college I've seen all of these girls that I was jealous of, all of these girls who were amazingly smart and talented, constantly de-value themselves and constantly question their own worth. So it's always been a pretty big trigger for me.
FA, you have just really hit on some hot button issues in this forum lately including, female beauty, trans beauty, the expiration date of beauty, how beauty determines the value of women, a woman's intelligence is not valued, women get raped a lot, trans women get raped even more frequently, violence against women is frequent, violence against trans women is more frequent.
Such discussions in this forum tend to get locked no matter WHO makes them. Such discussions tend to hurt fragile feelings.
We are reminded time and again by other staffers how this is NOT a discussion forum it is a support forum... so these discussion threads, being posted by an Admin can be all kinds of awkward, especially for those of us who have been smited or otherwise reprimanded for being as damaged, curious, willing to share our opinions and discuss hot button issues as you.
I don't know maybe my level of intelligence is not where it should be as far as understanding the argument here , but for the life of me I haven"t seen any thing that FA has said wrong. It's quite possible that I'm missing something in which case just ignore what I post , but I'm getting concerned that FA is beating himself over his head unjustifiably.
The couple of things I saw that FA said wrong were mercifully deleted.
You are right though about him beating himself unjustifiably.
Everybody gets a post or two deleted from here if they post long enough.
Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 05:06:08 PM
The couple of things I saw that FA said wrong were mercifully deleted.
You are right though about him beating himself unjustifiably.
Everybody gets a post or two deleted from here if they post long enough.
thanks for the clarification I've been feeling exceptionally good lately and I didn't want to end up in the psyche ward for the night out of fear my brain had snapped
At this point, it's all long in the past, and I vote that we all just give each-other a big hug and move on.
(Also, darn it, I was kind of hoping that my initial reply would stay in that other thread... 90% of that message was written in response to the debate over the "Passing" threads, and I feel like that self-worth message needs to be shared there. You're not going to be mad if I post it back over there, I hope?)
Quote from: stephaniec on April 17, 2014, 05:11:14 PM
thanks for the clarification I've been feeling exceptionally good lately and I didn't want to end up in the psyche ward for the night out of fear my brain had snapped
Oh, night will come sooner than you think. Muahahahahaha!!!
:P
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 05:11:41 PM
At this point, it's all long in the past, and I vote that we all just give each-other a big hug and move on.
yea, group hugs are the best
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 03:30:37 PM
See, this is just a continuing prevailing cultural problem, though, where girls are constantly judging their own self-worth on whether others think they're pretty or not. And that problem spills over into these vanity threads. Again, why are we not having these same issues with the FtM "Do I Pass?" threads? Doesn't that tell you something there? Maybe the MtF community, and females in general, just need to learn more that there's more to life and more to their self-worth than being pretty. That is really what we should be focusing on here. Why is it that when a girl whines about her problems, one of the first things that always comes up is that she feels "ugly?"
Come on, girls, grow some self-esteem for God's sake! Are we seriously going to close down a thread just because we're so emotionally fragile that a simple negative experience with our appearance is enough to make us question our very worth as human beings?
Maybe we need a "fight the beauty industry, patriarchal culture, and its objectifying standards of feminine worth" thread. Or maybe a "You Did Fabulous, Darling!" thread where people celebrate their triumphs and accomplishments that have nothing to do with beauty or passability.
We focus way too damned much on our appearance. Just saying.
My inner feminist is seriously screaming out in frustration at all of this constant drama.
I don't know, I don't think it's that easy. I'm still gonna judge my worth on my appearance until I actually can stop believing it's what matters to people. And maybe even after that just because I built my worth around that to begin with.
You can tell girls just to not care but they're prisoners of culture. From an age when they are too young to have serious opinions on anything at all. Of course it sinks in and of course it's hard to stop thinking about after that point.
I hear a lot of trans women say and believe they are pretty. It would be hard to honestly get the average cis girl to agree she is, and really believe it. There's a reason and it has nothing to do with them both being women. It's basically stockholm syndrome. (Instead, ask her what her bad features are and she'll have a list. Because to her, those are serious problems. It's not just a little tummy fat or a unique nose. It's being less than, in almost every way. It's her status. It's her place in the pecking order.)
That's just what I think... it is a real difficult problem to stop.
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 03:43:00 PM
When I realized it had all been taken the wrong way and that I had actually made women here feel bad? Believe me that I hated myself and cried and cried and cried.
Isn't it lucky you're human and don't need to be perfect.
If you were perfect, I wouldn't want to be your friend. I'd much rather see compassion in my friends than perfection. And you have compassion in generous helpings.
You put some love in all your posts. If some of them go awry, it isn't because the love isn't there, it's because we all make mistakes and don't always see the consequences of our actions.
You were not malicious, you were wounded. It's ok to be wounded. It's part of the human condition.
Quote from: suzifrommd on April 17, 2014, 05:30:23 PM
Isn't it lucky you're human and don't need to be perfect.
If you were perfect, I wouldn't want to be your friend. I'd much rather see compassion in my friends than perfection. And you have compassion in generous helpings.
You put some love in all your posts. If some of them go awry, it isn't because the love isn't there, it's because we all make mistakes and don't always see the consequences of our actions.
You were not malicious, you were wounded. It's ok to be wounded. It's part of the human condition.
I know I hae a major wound I'm trying to heal
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 05:11:41 PM
At this point, it's all long in the past, and I vote that we all just give each-other a big hug and move on.
(Also, darn it, I was kind of hoping that my initial reply would stay in that other thread... 90% of that message was written in response to the debate over the "Passing" threads, and I feel like that self-worth message needs to be shared there. You're not going to be mad if I post it back over there, I hope?)
Sorry, I didn't realize. :( Not mad at all. :)
Here's my parallel story, just so you can know that I'm coming from a point where I could be equally as bitter about the male experience.
Through my entire childhood, I was picked on and teased and made to feel like an outsider because I was weak, and emotional, and actually cared about women rather than being nothing but a walking sex-drive. (Yes, I actually did get teased for that.)
In 7th and 8th grade, those were the last years that I was openly myself. My voice hadn't changed, I had barely even started going through puberty, and I didn't want to. I loved singing soprano, I loved wearing short shorts, I was still watching cartoons and having 'secret clubs' with friends, I was shaving my legs as the hair started growing in, and you better believe I got teased a million times that year for being "gay" and a "->-bleeped-<-got" and wearing "daisy-dukes." Even my own friends teased me about that. And I was bullied like there was no tomorrow... people intentionally blocked me from getting into my locker every single day, stole my stuff and played "keep-away" with it, I got beaten up, and had to endure near-constant nasty treatment from people.
And when I asked my own therapist and my own Mom about it, how to end the teasing, the response was always something along the lines of "man up." So I was basically taught that the only way to stop people making fun of me, was to stop being different, and to become just as mean, uncaring, masculine, and tough as them.
And, well, unfortunately, I reached a point where I felt like I had no options but to listen. In high school, I stifled myself. I stopped wearing the clothes that I wanted. My voice changed, and I was devastated. I had to stop shaving my legs to avoid teasing, stop being open about my love of Pokemon and Sailor Moon to avoid teasing, hide any and every sign of gender conflict in my head, hide my true emotions, and basically just willfully stopped showing any signs of my internal gender conflict even though by this point I was absolutely screaming on the inside, to the point where I was failing classes because I felt so horrible about myself.
And every single day, I had to look at all of the guys around me playing this macho game, and I just HATED them. I hated how they acted tough, I hated how they used stupid stunts as some kind of proof of their manliness, I hated how they had to act completely emotionless, I HATED HATED HATED how they treated women like s*** and treated them like objects to be screwed and then dumped. I wanted to freaking strangle every single one of them and be like "you're a complete and total A**HOLE!!! I'm embarrassed to be considered a member of the same gender as you, you inconsiderate jerk!" And I was so bitter about how men had no right to express themselves, and niceness in them wasn't even rewarded, it was jerkiness that was rewarded, while girls could at least be tomboys in addition to being a stereotypical girl, while there was no male equivalent whatsoever. I seriously thought, how could ANYONE want to be a man? How the hell do they live with themselves?"
Basically, I was the equivalent of a man-hating radical feminist at that point.
And am I still bitter about this? Yes! Do I still seriously not understand how people could actually enjoy being male? To some degree, yes. I still have a bit of a hard time looking at the FtM "Before and After" thread, because I see people turning from a gender I admire into a gender I'm still bitter about. And every single damned time I heard my male co-workers at the Horseshoe bragging about their Vegas sex-escapades last year, I just wanted to scream.
The thing is, though, over time, I have mostly learned to get over it. I learned to filter out comments from people who I realized I hated anyway. Why was I letting these opinions and these expectations get to me if I didn't want to? I finally learned that I had the freedom to define my own self worth, and that I should quit letting others' expectations get to me so much. I started hanging out with my own kind... nerdy tomboyish girls who didn't care about society's standards of beauty and defined themselves by their talents and ideas, and guys who still enjoyed "childish" things and really didn't care about living up to some dudebro standard of masculinity. They do exist. And although I still remained in denial about my gender identity for years after that, getting in with that more neutral nerdy crowd who don't give two s***s about their popularity really helped me.
So again. We've both been hurt and disenfranchised by the societal expectations of our birth genders. I just feel a very strong activist-like sense of "It doesn't have to be this way. We can change this. I learned to define my own self-worth, so surely I can help others do the same."
I know I'm not completely over this either, though. I have so many emotional breakdowns in my blog it's ridiculous. And you've seen it.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 06:17:38 PM
Here's my parallel story, just so you can know that I'm coming from a point where I could be equally as bitter about the male experience.
Through my entire childhood, I was picked on and teased and made to feel like an outsider because I was weak, and emotional, and actually cared about women rather than being nothing but a walking sex-drive. (Yes, I actually did get teased for that.)
In 7th and 8th grade, those were the last years that I was openly myself. My voice hadn't changed, I had barely even started going through puberty, and I didn't want to. I loved singing soprano, I loved wearing short shorts, I was still watching cartoons and having 'secret clubs' with friends, I was shaving my legs as the hair started growing in, and you better believe I got teased a million times that year for being "gay" and a "->-bleeped-<-got" and wearing "daisy-dukes." Even my own friends teased me about that. And I was bullied like there was no tomorrow... people intentionally blocked me from getting into my locker every single day, stole my stuff and played "keep-away" with it, I got beaten up, and had to endure near-constant nasty treatment from people.
And when I asked my own therapist and my own Mom about it, how to end the teasing, the response was always something along the lines of "man up." So I was basically taught that the only way to stop people making fun of me, was to stop being different, and to become just as mean, uncaring, masculine, and tough as them.
And, well, unfortunately, I listened. In high school, I stifled myself. I stopped wearing the clothes that I wanted. My voice changed, and I was devastated. I had to stop shaving my legs to avoid teasing, stop being open about my love of Pokemon and Sailor Moon to avoid teasing, hide any and every sign of gender conflict in my head, hide my true emotions, and basically just willfully stopped showing any signs of my internal gender conflict even though by this point I was absolutely screaming on the inside, to the point where I was failing classes because I felt so horrible about myself.
And every single day, I had to look at all of the guys around me playing this macho game, and I just HATED them. I hated how they acted tough, I hated how they used stupid stunts as some kind of proof of their manliness, I hated how they had to act completely emotionless, I HATED HATED HATED how they treated women like s*** and treated them like objects to be screwed and then dumped. I wanted to freaking strangle every single one of them and be like "you're a complete and total A**HOLE!!! I'm embarrassed to be considered a member of the same gender as you, you inconsiderate jerk!" And I was so bitter about how men had no right to express themselves, and niceness in them wasn't even rewarded, it was jerkiness that was rewarded, while girls could at least be tomboys in addition to being a stereotypical girl, while there was no male equivalent whatsoever. I seriously thought, how could ANYONE want to be a man? How the hell do they live with themselves?"
Basically, I was the equivalent of a man-hating radical feminist at that point.
And am I still bitter about this? Yes! Do I still seriously not understand how people could actually enjoy being male? To some degree, yes. I still have a bit of a hard time looking at the FtM "Before and After" thread, because I see people turning from a gender I admire into a gender I'm still bitter about. And every single damned time I heard my male co-workers at the Horseshoe bragging about their Vegas sex-escapades last year, I just wanted to scream.
The thing is, though, over time, I have mostly learned to get over it. I learned to filter out comments from people who I realized I hated anyway. Why was I letting these opinions and these expectations get to me if I didn't want to? I finally learned that I had the freedom to define my own self worth, and that I should quit letting others' expectations get to me so much. I started hanging out with my own kind... nerdy tomboyish girls who didn't care about society's standards of beauty and defined themselves by their talents and ideas, and guys who still enjoyed "childish" things and really didn't care about living up to some dudebro standard of masculinity. They do exist. And although I still remained in denial about my gender identity for years after that, getting in with that more neutral crowd really helped me.
So again. We've both been hurt and disenfranchised by the societal expectations of our birth genders. I just feel a very strong activist-like sense of "It doesn't have to be this way. We can change this. I learned to define my own self-worth, so surely I can help others do the same."
I know I'm not completely over this either, though. I have so many emotional breakdowns in my blog it's ridiculous. And you've seen it.
I went through the exact thing you did , but yours seem to be a little bit rougher
QuoteSo again. We've both been hurt and disenfranchised by the societal expectations of our birth genders. I just feel a very strong activist-like sense of "It doesn't have to be this way. We can change this. I learned to define my own self-worth, so surely I can help others do the same."
Well, I get that. But a lot of what I hear (not necessarily from you) is - 'just get over it'. Or the implications about not having being strong enough. Well, guess I wasn't. So, okay I was a weak kid who absorbed all this. Maybe I can't just get put aside. Maybe I need help and don't know how to get it. Or maybe I'm just irretrievably damaged.
And also, while I sympathize what you went through, it also feels like you're trying to counter what I posted. And this is the first time I ever posted what I went through, really. And I'm not saying it's worse than what AMAB kids went through. I'm saying it's what I went through.
FA,
You are obviously in pain and need to talk, but please understand that not everyone will share your views and that's okay. For me, I never meant to disagree or invalidate your feelings on this topic. In fact, I think you have many good points even if I don't fully agree. Everyone's circumstances differ and one's individual perspective doesn't equal the "truth". We all see things differently because we don't all have the same experiences. What is horrible for one person, may be a gift for another compared to their feelings. It doesn't make either view "true", it's just perspective when it comes down to it. You are free to your's and their is no reason for us to argue over it.
Having said all that, while I don't want to debate your feelings, I would like to see you find peace with them.. I think the element of "you're right and I'm wrong" in these conversations which really are irrelevant here. What's important is that you feel all of these things and they are effecting you. How can we help you? How can we help you cope with these dark feelings that you have? How do we get you passed it? Or at aid you in moving on to a healthier self view with less inner grief?
Fo starters, I think it would be helpful if you speak for FA and not for women. Talk about yourself and your own feelings. Open up about yourself instead of your gender or sex even if that plays a role in how you view yourself.
If you can't talk about that here in public, you know there are people that want to help in private.
I'm just having a hard time figuring out why you're just begrudgingly accepting how society treats women, and being bitter about it, rather than taking how badly you were treated as a battle cry to help change it. Maybe we're just different like that, I guess...
Anyway... sorry... I wasn't sharing my story to try and counter yours... that was my pathetic attempt at empathy, to show that I'd been through a lot of the same on the opposite side, and how I (mostly) got over it, to try and be inspiring. I guess I just have a hard time not having everything I post come across as some preachy message...
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 05:26:32 PM
I'm sorry you went through that FA. I can only relate from the other end of the scale (having to man up and pretend to be masculine, and never fitting in regardless, but at least not sticking out anymore). Unfortunately you can't do much about your past, but you can work on the now. I'll never have grown up as anything but a 'male' but at least I can do something now, you know?
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 06:17:38 PM
Here's my parallel story, just so you can know that I'm coming from a point where I could be equally as bitter about the male experience.
Through my entire childhood, I was picked on and teased and made to feel like an outsider because I was weak, and emotional, and actually cared about women rather than being nothing but a walking sex-drive. (Yes, I actually did get teased for that.)
In 7th and 8th grade, those were the last years that I was openly myself. My voice hadn't changed, I had barely even started going through puberty, and I didn't want to. I loved singing soprano, I loved wearing short shorts, I was still watching cartoons and having 'secret clubs' with friends, I was shaving my legs as the hair started growing in, and you better believe I got teased a million times that year for being "gay" and a "->-bleeped-<-got" and wearing "daisy-dukes." Even my own friends teased me about that. And I was bullied like there was no tomorrow... people intentionally blocked me from getting into my locker every single day, stole my stuff and played "keep-away" with it, I got beaten up, and had to endure near-constant nasty treatment from people.
And when I asked my own therapist and my own Mom about it, how to end the teasing, the response was always something along the lines of "man up." So I was basically taught that the only way to stop people making fun of me, was to stop being different, and to become just as mean, uncaring, masculine, and tough as them.
And, well, unfortunately, I reached a point where I felt like I had no options but to listen. In high school, I stifled myself. I stopped wearing the clothes that I wanted. My voice changed, and I was devastated. I had to stop shaving my legs to avoid teasing, stop being open about my love of Pokemon and Sailor Moon to avoid teasing, hide any and every sign of gender conflict in my head, hide my true emotions, and basically just willfully stopped showing any signs of my internal gender conflict even though by this point I was absolutely screaming on the inside, to the point where I was failing classes because I felt so horrible about myself.
And every single day, I had to look at all of the guys around me playing this macho game, and I just HATED them. I hated how they acted tough, I hated how they used stupid stunts as some kind of proof of their manliness, I hated how they had to act completely emotionless, I HATED HATED HATED how they treated women like s*** and treated them like objects to be screwed and then dumped. I wanted to freaking strangle every single one of them and be like "you're a complete and total A**HOLE!!! I'm embarrassed to be considered a member of the same gender as you, you inconsiderate jerk!" And I was so bitter about how men had no right to express themselves, and niceness in them wasn't even rewarded, it was jerkiness that was rewarded, while girls could at least be tomboys in addition to being a stereotypical girl, while there was no male equivalent whatsoever. I seriously thought, how could ANYONE want to be a man? How the hell do they live with themselves?"
Basically, I was the equivalent of a man-hating radical feminist at that point.
And am I still bitter about this? Yes! Do I still seriously not understand how people could actually enjoy being male? To some degree, yes. I still have a bit of a hard time looking at the FtM "Before and After" thread, because I see people turning from a gender I admire into a gender I'm still bitter about. And every single damned time I heard my male co-workers at the Horseshoe bragging about their Vegas sex-escapades last year, I just wanted to scream.
The thing is, though, over time, I have mostly learned to get over it. I learned to filter out comments from people who I realized I hated anyway. Why was I letting these opinions and these expectations get to me if I didn't want to? I finally learned that I had the freedom to define my own self worth, and that I should quit letting others' expectations get to me so much. I started hanging out with my own kind... nerdy tomboyish girls who didn't care about society's standards of beauty and defined themselves by their talents and ideas, and guys who still enjoyed "childish" things and really didn't care about living up to some dudebro standard of masculinity. They do exist. And although I still remained in denial about my gender identity for years after that, getting in with that more neutral nerdy crowd who don't give two s***s about their popularity really helped me.
So again. We've both been hurt and disenfranchised by the societal expectations of our birth genders. I just feel a very strong activist-like sense of "It doesn't have to be this way. We can change this. I learned to define my own self-worth, so surely I can help others do the same."
I know I'm not completely over this either, though. I have so many emotional breakdowns in my blog it's ridiculous. And you've seen it.
Wow Carrie, it was like reading my own school life, right down to the Sailor Moon :3 I'm sorry that you went through it as well. I admit I'm also bitter about masculinity as well, my head is screaming when going through the ftm threads 'whyyyyyyyyyy'. I obviously have issues to work out as well, but thanks for posting your story.
My response, which probably fits better in this thread, but was more a reverse reaction to always hearing that we shouldn't put any value into appearances was this:
Asking about ones physical appearance does not automatically suggest that their world revolves around it. I am respected in my field, have multiple creative outlets, and absolutely love myself and my work immensely. Having people constantly bemoan the fact that I also own mirrors and would like to look good in them is frustrating to the point of ridiculousness. My appearance doesn't define me, sure, but it does add to my definition. Maybe this is because I am a materialist, so don't really buy into the whole magical pixie spirit currently trapped in a vehicle mentality that spiritual people adhere to, but I care how I look as a woman, and I don't think I should be made to feel vain, selfish, or egotistical for it. I think that the reason why men don't care as much isn't necessarily a gender 'construct' used to make women feel like objects and men treat them as that, I think deep down there is a biological mindset difference, in which women want to be valued for their appearance, not necessarily exclusively, but partly. Even in denial, as a male, I was very different in how I valued my appearance over my friends, and it was always pretty obvious, but just ignored.
I know it's tangential, but it's odd how often you hear the 'appearance is so superficial' thing on here. Is it? If it's so irrelevant then why do we have dysphoria?
That being said, I know women that put farrrr too much value in their appearance, as was mentioned here, so really it's a fine line. You can't get lost in it, but I do think it's important to us in deeper ways than gender construct. And it isn't necessarily 'for men' either, I have no interest in men sexually, I just want to be beautiful for me.
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 06:38:26 PM
Well, I get that. But a lot of what I hear (not necessarily from you) is - 'just get over it'. Or the implications about not having being strong enough. Well, guess I wasn't. So, okay I was a weak kid who absorbed all this. Maybe I can't just get put aside. Maybe I need help and don't know how to get it. Or maybe I'm just irretrievably damaged.
And also, while I sympathize what you went through, it also feels like you're trying to counter what I posted. And this is the first time I ever posted what I went through, really. And I'm not saying it's worse than what AMAB kids went through. I'm saying it's what I went through.
I just do not know, FA, if the general populace of this MTF forum is best suited to help you deal with your particular issues. We either have signed up or are considering signing up for the girl juice.
Sarcasm aside, you have recently been using this forum to say things akin to, "Women over 25 are worthless.", "Women are not valued for their minds.", "Beauty is all that matters." and you've said those things definitively and without further context until someone replies to the contrary, thus hurting your feelings by making you feel invalidated, when they are only really trying to defend their old-ass, ugly, intelligent selves.
I really get where you are coming from with your issues. You have painted them clearly many times.
I just do not understand the reasoning for saying such things, sarcastically or not, to a room full of fragile female egos, when you know full well those VERY WORDS did so much damage to you.
Sometimes FA, I don't know if I want to smack you, or hug you.
As others have said, your compassion is undeniable. You are one of my very favorite posters here. I just get torn between wanting to help you, and wanting to protect the countless women in here who read your often harsh and context free generalizations.
I feel bad even posting in your recent threads for fear I may start your tears flowing again. But then, a couple days later, you make another similar thread... and so on.
My PM box is always open, but I am going to do my best to refrain from discussing this topic further in public. I fear my opinions and your feelings may not make a good match right now. I think I have made all the points I wanted to. Feel free to reply or disagree. I will be watching.
Much love,
Tori
Sigh... I've got to work on my empathy. I'm sorry. :<
Not your fault hon.
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 06:38:26 PMOr maybe I'm just irretrievably damaged.
No you're not, hon.
*hugs*
You need to separate yourself from "her". You need to start seeing who you are, beyond who you were. Beyond all the defenses you put in place just to survive. Beyond the reflection everyone saw when they looked in the mirror of your former life.
You're trapped in a past which isn't yours. But at the same time you wish it had been, in a different way. Ties to your life that you want to keep, you feel that if you hadn't been treated how you had been that you would have held on to it. Done something differently. And I think you're angry at a world which made you believe you had to do things differently to what you wanted just in order to survive. To live. But a part of that is also an anger at yourself for doing things in that way. For being put in that position. You hate what the world made you, but you also hate that you allowed it to. The loss of control of yourself and your own future.
It's not as easy as getting over it. You first have to understand what "it" is. And then what "it" was, and finally what "it" isn't anymore.
I never knew you back then, but I do know you now. And I know that you're not that person anymore. I know that you've started to take control of your life for maybe the first time. In the time I've known you, I've seen you display a strength that I've never seen from too many other people. A determination. Sometimes it's seemed like someone waking up from a bad dream.
Keep going, hon. Like Winston Churchill said: "If you're going through hell, keep going." You will come out the other side. I promise. You know where I am. :) *Extra hug*
Kia Ora,
I just thought I'd post this on this thread too...just as a little reminder of what the future holds for all of us....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQTWCTc0aI
Metta Anatta :)
I'm just really emotional right now. Forgot to take my T, I guess. I'm always late taking it.
I'm sorry FA, but I had no intention of hurting you in any way. I'm going to leave this thread because I feel my posts intention was taken in a much different way than it was intended. And for right or for wrong, I do notice I have that impact on some here and for that I'm sorry. Honestly, I didn't mean again to make you feel belittled once again. I just really wanted to focus on your feelings and prevent them from continuing harm to you. That's all I meant to say. I'm leaving now.
Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 06:57:41 PM
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 06:38:26 PM
Well, I get that. But a lot of what I hear (not necessarily from you) is - 'just get over it'. Or the implications about not having being strong enough. Well, guess I wasn't. So, okay I was a weak kid who absorbed all this. Maybe I can't just get put aside. Maybe I need help and don't know how to get it. Or maybe I'm just irretrievably damaged.
And also, while I sympathize what you went through, it also feels like you're trying to counter what I posted. And this is the first time I ever posted what I went through, really. And I'm not saying it's worse than what AMAB kids went through. I'm saying it's what I went through.
I just do not know, FA, if the general populace of this MTF forum is best suited to help you deal with your particular issues. We either have signed up or are considering signing up for the girl juice.
Sarcasm aside, you have recently been using this forum to say things akin to, "Women over 25 are worthless.", "Women are not valued for their minds.", "Beauty is all that matters." and you've said those things definitively and without further context until someone replies to the contrary, thus hurting your feelings by making you feel invalidated, when they are only really trying to defend their old-ass, ugly, intelligent selves.
I really get where you are coming from with your issues. You have painted them clearly many times.
I just do not understand the reasoning for saying such things, sarcastically or not, to a room full of fragile female egos, when you know full well those VERY WORDS did so much damage to you.
Sometimes FA, I don't know if I want to smack you, or hug you.
As others have said, your compassion is undeniable. You are one of my very favorite posters here. I just get torn between wanting to help you, and wanting to protect the countless women in here who read your often harsh and context free generalizations.
I feel bad even posting in your recent threads for fear I may start your tears flowing again. But then, a couple days later, you make another similar thread... and so on.
My PM box is always open, but I am going to do my best to refrain from discussing this topic further in public. I fear my opinions and your feelings may not make a good match right now. I think I have made all the points I wanted to. Feel free to reply or disagree. I will be watching.
Much love,
Tori
Okay, I never should said I was crying. That stuff I said was all meant as sarcastic. Like I said, I felt really bad when I realized it wasn't taken that way. I guess I just have nowhere to go. Not like I can talk to men about this. And honestly, most cis women are not that well versed in women's issues. I guess I could go hang out on a feminist forum where I'll be vilified for transitioning.
Just before it blows up again, I made this thread: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163329.msg1405387.html#msg1405387 for male socialization and experiences! So, now there's one of each! :)
(And I am going to again defend the point of having this thread here. MTF means woman, we all live this every day when we socialize as women. It is just as relevant to us as it is to FA. And everyone gets their own opinion, but there is something actually important here.)
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 07:18:30 PM
I just do not know, FA, if the general populace of this MTF forum is best suited to help you deal with your particular issues. We either have signed up or are considering signing up for the girl juice.
Sarcasm aside, you have recently been using this forum to say things akin to, "Women over 25 are worthless.", "Women are not valued for their minds.", "Beauty is all that matters." and you've said those things definitively and without further context until someone replies to the contrary, thus hurting your feelings by making you feel invalidated, when they are only really trying to defend their old-ass, ugly, intelligent selves.
I really get where you are coming from with your issues. You have painted them clearly many times.
I just do not understand the reasoning for saying such things, sarcastically or not, to a room full of fragile female egos, when you know full well those VERY WORDS did so much damage to you.
Sometimes FA, I don't know if I want to smack you, or hug you.
As others have said, your compassion is undeniable. You are one of my very favorite posters here. I just get torn between wanting to help you, and wanting to protect the countless women in here who read your often harsh and context free generalizations.
I feel bad even posting in your recent threads for fear I may start your tears flowing again. But then, a couple days later, you make another similar thread... and so on.
My PM box is always open, but I am going to do my best to refrain from discussing this topic further in public. I fear my opinions and your feelings may not make a good match right now. I think I have made all the points I wanted to. Feel free to reply or disagree. I will be watching.
Much love,
Tori
Okay, I never should said I was crying. That stuff I said was all meant as sarcastic. Like I said, I felt really bad when I realized it wasn't taken that way. I guess I just have nowhere to go. Not like I can talk to men about this. And honestly, most cis women are not that well versed in women's issues. I guess I could go hang out on a feminist forum where I'll be vilified for transitioning.
well FA for some reason I've missed all the argument that seem to have caused problems. all I want to say is that I love you.
Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 07:13:58 PM
I'm sorry FA, but I had no intention of hurting you in any way. I'm going to leave this thread because I feel my posts intention was taken in a much different way than it was intended. And for right or for wrong, I do notice I have that impact on some here and for that I'm sorry. Honestly, I didn't mean again to make you feel belittled once again. I just really wanted to focus on your feelings and prevent them from continuing harm to you. That's all I meant to say. I'm leaving now.
That's ok hon. I deleted the posts.
Quote from: stephaniec on April 17, 2014, 07:26:29 PM
well FA for some reason I've missed all the argument that seem to have caused problems. all I want to say is that I love you.
Thanks hon. :) :)
I am back. :P
FA, between the times you say, "I was being sarcastic." and, "I am just being honest." it can be almost impossible to get a clear read on you.
Of course you are welcome on the forum you Administrate. Of course, we will be here for you.
But you have "Sarcastically" said things in here lately that have legitimately upset posters to the point of getting themselves smited by you and banned by others. It is ok, I guess, rules were certainly broken.
The sarcasm card leaves me feeling a little unsatisfied though.
I hope that makes sense.
Just tryin' to help dig you out of this new cycle.
I am not being sarcastic, I am being honest.
Quote from: sad panda on April 17, 2014, 07:21:00 PM
Just before it blows up again, I made this thread: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163329.msg1405387.html#msg1405387 for male socialization and experiences! So, now there's one of each! :)
(And I am going to again defend the point of having this thread here. MTF means woman, we all live this every day when we socialize as women. It is just as relevant to us as it is to FA. And everyone gets their own opinion, but there is something actually important here.)
Thanks hon.
I guess I just feel sad and alone.
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 07:34:47 PM
Thanks hon.
I guess I just feel sad and alone.
Yeah... I can see why you would feel that way. It seems like it's been really rough lately. :c
Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 07:32:09 PM
I am back. :P
FA, between the times you say, "I was being sarcastic." and, "I am just being honest." it can be almost impossible to get a clear read on you.
Of course you are welcome on the forum you Administrate. Of course, we will be here for you.
But you have "Sarcastically" said things in here lately that have legitimately upset posters to the point of getting themselves smited by you and banned by others. It is ok, I guess, rules were certainly broken.
The sarcasm card leaves me feeling a little unsatisfied though.
I hope that makes sense.
Just tryin' to help dig you out of this new cycle.
Okay, I am being honest because this is what I've been programmed with. Doesn't mean I think it's ok.
I really want to help, but I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing. I guess what I meant to say is "how can we help fa"? "How can we stop this from hurting him"? I'm sorry if that comes across wrong, but I think your feelings are really what matters in this context and helping you through them would be more productive than us sharing our different takes on it. For right or for wrong, you're going to get a different take from mtf's and that's why I think instead of all of us focusing on our different perspections on life, I'd like to hear what you say and help you through it. Then again, I'm a total joke who can't hlep themselves, so how I am really to help someone else? lol. That's why I'll leave it to others.
Seriously Fa. You've been a friend. I've tried to return it, but I mess up everytime and I'm sorry for that.
FA, I am sorry you are hurting, hugs.
I was very close to my sister and her friends growing up. She and her friends were always obsessing on the issues you mentioned. She would obsess on her issues and we talked about them a lot, sometimes still do. I know the pain she experienced, the self doubt and the internalized imperfections that occupied her thoughts.
I was celibate 7 years prior to meeting my future wife. She became my closest friend and the physical issues and self loathing were the same as my sisters and my sisters friends. I would tell my sister she is not her (explicit parts) and that she was beautiful inside, smart and fun to be with and that I love her.
I speak to my sister several times a week and I always end with a reinforcing statement and that I love her.
I reinforce positive perspective to my wife and daughter and emphasize how they are important to me and why.
I never experienced the pain you experienced; however, I witnessed and felt their pain as a loved one.
I am truly sorry you endured the psychological bar of impossible height and suffered dysphoria at the same time. You are haunted by the past and I am sorry for you pain.
FA, you deleted your post...
Now I'm feeling REALLY crappy that someone was willing to finally open up and share his struggles, and I screwed it up... :(
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 07:54:06 PM
it's okay hon. I'm being a woman about this. And it might be I forgot my T.
Holy crap, that's IT. I totally forgot to take my E this morning. You scare me sometimes with how eerily similar we are.
BIG hugs.
Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 08:08:13 PM
Holy crap, that's IT. I totally forgot to take my E this morning. You scare me sometimes with how eerily similar we are.
BIG hugs.
It's crazy. Though feels kind of good, cause I can't cry on T. I know some men can, but it's really difficult for me. I think it may be genetic. My dad never cries.
I cried all the time, but then again I have a female brain. ;) You are so awesome for pulling me out of my funk today.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 03:30:37 PM
Maybe we need a "fight the beauty industry, patriarchal culture, and its objectifying standards of feminine worth" thread. Or maybe a "You Did Fabulous, Darling!" thread where people celebrate their triumphs and accomplishments that have nothing to do with beauty or passability.
Yes, yes, yes! I love this idea. Also, my next article is about beauty so all of this is *so* interesting!