Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm curious as to why we are transgender?  Is it biological? 

I ask because years ago I had a therapist tell me it was not real and reflected a psychological problem.  I'm also preparing to come out to people and want to figure this out.

I should know this already but I don't. I've spent the past decade trying to pretend it doesn't exist and stuffing my feelings down.

Gender Dysphoria used to be listed as a mental disorder under the title Gender Identity Disorder. Not to long ago it was changed as controversies like the drug DES (Diethylstilbestrol), theories like the Neurons firing into the Amygdala from the Medulla differing in males and females and others came into play. MRIs are showing differing activity in the brain as well showing activity of the opposite sex. I think we will find a definitive answer in the near future that proves it is biological and not mental. This is my opinion of why we are like we are. :)

From what I've read and seen there are real differences in the brains of men and women. MTFs display typical female brains while FTM have male brains. Unfortunately this can only be seen after death and taking slices of the brain.
Belief is that a hormone imbalance for whatever reason during pregnancy is the cause of this. It could be from various sources as Jessica mentioned and it is not a mental or lifestyle choice. It is much deeper. :(

If this is the truth then it does explain a lot and no matter how hard we fight, there is a real reason for the way we feel and yes most of us are born this way and realised from a very early age.

Jen

i disagree that it's biological, to me it's actually much more simple, we just go with whatever pleases us, in my case i love having a feminine appearance and being referred to as the female gender, amongst other things, but i think gender is a social construct

the thing is that society created gender roles, with actions, appearance, mannerisms, etc, that are suitable for those labeled as male and female, and after someone is born they get assigned the male or female label based on whether they were born with a penis or a vagina, and that's it, the person is not allowed to choose which one they prefer (or if they prefer neither or both), and they are expected to accept it, if they don't, they get labeled as having a disorder or a mental problem for not conforming to the majority, everyone is born genderless, gender is learned

gender roles are also destructive to cis people, if they like something that belongs to the other gender, they are made fun of and prejudiced against

i don't think there would be any biological element is there? is there anything biological that defines our tastes? for me it is a matter of what we identify as, of what we want

changing it to gender dysphoria hasn't done much good, being different is still considered bad, a disease, a disorder, apparently we can't just prefer belonging to the other gender (since apparently that's crazy, no one would ever want that right?), also, the treatments didn't change (at least not here), and then there is a lot of red tape to change OUR bodies, to me it just seems like bigotry and prejudice against gender diversity, much like being homosexual was before, now they just need to get over that transgender people are normal too

Quote from: Jenny07 on April 17, 2014, 10:01:01 PM
If this is the truth then it does explain a lot and no matter how hard we fight, there is a real reason for the way we feel and yes most of us are born this way and realised from a very early age.

Couldn't agree more Jen! I mean who would do this on a whim and lose and suffer all we do? Sure isn't for kicks! ;)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 10:05:29 PM
Couldn't agree more Jen! I mean who would do this on a whim and lose and suffer all we do? Sure isn't for kicks! ;)

Totally-who would go through all of this for kicks. 

There has to be something biological. What you both have said makes sense. 

I've been fighting this my whole life. I thought I had it all stuffed away but then developed a chronic illness.

I'm over 45 so I still carry a ton of internalized gender stuff/shame. One would think that not acting like our birth gender was akin to being serial killers.

I'm interested in all ideas so I can be armed for when I tell my family (which I'm terrified to do).  Luckily I'm not dependent on them financially because I know I will be disowned.   

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 17, 2014, 10:03:44 PM
i disagree that it's biological

Prove it. I have empirical test data on my side, do you?

Ryan I used to think everyone felt like I did just dealt with it better than me. That caused a ton of self doubt, shame and guilt. Was I ever relieved when I discovered all the medical indications of biological causes.

I thought the same thing about losing family and friends, but in todays society it is so different from when I grew up. I was shocked at the acceptance I received and support that was shown. It is a new day and even though we still have a long way to go we are much better off today than 20 or 30 years ago. Don't make the mistake of pre judging their responses as it will make coming out so much harder and it will balloon to epic proportions. Don't do that to yourself. We are asking others for open mindedness be sure you go into it the same way. :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 10:05:29 PM
Couldn't agree more Jen! I mean who would do this on a whim and lose and suffer all we do? Sure isn't for kicks! ;)

If someone cis were to undergo hrt on a whim they would suffer severe anxiety and depression within an hour or two, and it won't go away until they stop the hormones. So they would basically feel like we feel before going on hormones.
There are actual documented cases of cis men getting E to treat prostate cancer and having the terrible reactions I just mentioned.

That all pretty much comes from what my therapist told me yesterday.

That's why they call HRT diagnosis by treatment. If it is wrong we feel terrible if it is right we feel relaxed and relieved. All with a day or two but usually the first few hours. My therapist says she has never heard of a "neutral" reaction to HRT in the 40ish years she has been researching it.

Just remember we were born this way and it is not a choice, for me at least.

Try searching the web for Born this way video which is interesting.

It confronts people about their beliefs and prejudice about GLBT's. Most think it is a choice until they are asked when they decided to be straight. Pause, a few pained expressions and then bingo.
They change their tune very quickly and is funny to watch the penny drop.

Good luck as it is terrifying.

Hugs
Jen

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 10:42:38 PM
Prove it. I have empirical test data on my side, do you?

i'd be interested in seeing it, as i don't understand how could something biological define things that we like or identify as that are considered male or female things by society, at least that's my take on it

Study Diethylstilbestrol Hormone and it's effects on male births and the study of the Bed Nuclei of the Striates Terminalis (Post Mortem). They are all over the web. Those are not the only studies at the moment, but the top two. :)

I really don't understand the 'gender is a social construct' camp at all, are you for real? Take a bio 101 class and it becomes pretty clear how silly that argument is. There are deep genetic biological differences between the sexes, and the gender cultural that has built up around each gender was constructed as a reflection of those biological differences, not the other way around. Somebody didn't just decide that there were two genders  ::) read a book about what it is to be an alpha male from a purely animalistic perspective, and then recall that we are just highly cognitive animals. Our behaviour is an extrapolation of behaviour you see in the wild.

Or are the gender differences between chimps and other animals social constructs as well? *sigh*

Sorry if that sounds bitchy, I'm just don't understand the argument at all. Gender Dysphoria is certainly a real disorder, and I would like it acknowledged as one, why the hell would I wake up and just 'want' to do this? You said that you just prefer feminine stuff and that's a choice, sure, but have you questioned why you prefer feminine stuff on a deep subconscious level? 

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 10:49:56 PM
Study Diethylstilbestrol Hormone and it's effects on male births and the study of the Bed Nuclei of the Striates Terminalis (Post Mortem). They are all over the web. Those are not the only studies at the moment, but the top two. :)

i'll take a look in a moment, but it may take some time since it seems a bit complicated and i'm doing other things right now as well

to me though, it seems to reinforce that being trans* is something that was caused by something, and not the case of an individual simply identifying more with other things that are considered either for males or for females defined by society, can it not be the case?

also, does this study also count for female to male transsexuals? are they also caused by a similar hormone or something like that? what about non-binary gender people? would this also count for transsexuals of ancient civilizations and other countries? the quick googling i did (although i didn't open it yet, just read the search preview) says that it was prescribed to women from 1938 to 1971

My biological psychology professor actually covered the biological reasons for transsexualism in class which I thought was pretty cool. As has been said, current studies suggest that hormones during fetal development cause our brains to develop as the gender we identify as. Humans brains are sexually dimorphic. He also covered the fact that there is no evidence of gender roles having a biological basis.
Yes, studies have been done on FtMs and shown the same evidence (just the other direction).

Quote from: Edge on April 17, 2014, 11:04:59 PM
My biological psychology professor actually covered the biological reasons for transsexualism in class which I thought was pretty cool. As has been said, current studies suggest that hormones during fetal development cause our brains to develop as the gender we identify as. Humans brains are sexually dimorphic. He also covered the fact that there is no evidence of gender roles having a biological basis.
Yes, studies have been done on FtMs and shown the same evidence (just the other direction).

Thanks for that information, do you know what the sources on that would be? I'd like to compile some information on the biological basis of GID. Also, I agree that there is no evidence for gender roles themselves having a biological basis, but that doesn't suggest that gender roles which do spring up for whatever reason are culturally defined. They are, instead, defined by the process of adaptation - whatever works at the time to allow for survival becomes reinforced, and thus gender culture begins to spring up. Especially in dimorphic species. There is also the possibilities of sexual selection early on, which may have led to a lot of our gender differences before our brains became as developed as they are.

I recommend the book 'The Red Queen' for those interested in gender differences from a biological basis throughout the animal kingdom. http://www.amazon.com/The-Red-Queen-Evolution-Nature/dp/0060556579 (http://www.amazon.com/The-Red-Queen-Evolution-Nature/dp/0060556579)

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 17, 2014, 11:04:06 PM
to me though, it seems to reinforce that being trans* is something that was caused by something, and not the case of an individual simply identifying more with other things that are considered either for males or for females defined by society, can it not be the case?

Who would choose the things we have to do to be the real us? The urge to transition makes some of us give up everything we had. My Endo even warned me that "E" could change my gender preference. Why? Because I would chemically be drawn and respond differently to smells, tastes, colors and other biological causes. Talk to any Endo if you would like proof of that. Why do certain things cause an allergic reaction? Chemical imbalances and tolerances, that's why. Same thing with being transgendered. My doctor took me off of 12 daily meds for health issue's. It seems my body (chemically) doesn't respond correctly with "T" in my system. That's pretty conclusive to me. :)

Quote from: Nattie on April 17, 2014, 11:03:07 PM
I really don't understand the 'gender is a social construct' camp at all, are you for real? Take a bio 101 class and it becomes pretty clear how silly that argument is. There are deep genetic biological differences between the sexes, and the gender cultural that has built up around each gender was constructed as a reflection of those biological differences, not the other way around. Somebody didn't just decide that there were two genders  ::) read a book about what it is to be an alpha male from a purely animalistic perspective, and then recall that we are just highly cognitive animals. Our behaviour is an extrapolation of behaviour you see in the wild.

how does the genetic biological differences define what someone born male or female should do, wear, how they should act and etc? it seems more like these were traditions that changed countless times in societies, and also vary depending on the society itself, so why would gender be biological and not social?

what i'm trying to understand is that why must our sex and gender role match, and that if it doesn't, its then treated as a disorder? is diversity not allowed?

Quote from: Nattie on April 17, 2014, 11:03:07 PM
Or are the gender differences between chimps and other animals social constructs as well? *sigh*

do chimps define what they are supposed to like if they are male or female? or does their biology does it? i do not know much about animal behavior, but they do not have society and culture like we do, which as soon as someone is born it is teached to them to like blue or pink depending on their sex, and treats everything different as wrong or mental problem

Quote from: Nattie on April 17, 2014, 11:03:07 PM
Sorry if that sounds bitchy, I'm just don't understand the argument at all. Gender Dysphoria is certainly a real disorder, and I would like it acknowledged as one, why the hell would I wake up and just 'want' to do this? You said that you just prefer feminine stuff and that's a choice, sure, but have you questioned why you prefer feminine stuff on a deep subconscious level?

i didn't say i choose, i didn't choose to like computer games, i just like them, they please me, i didn't choose to like being female, i just like it, it pleases me, i didn't choose to not like being a male, it does not please me, so if i don't like things that males are "supposed" to like, i have a disorder? am i not allowed to be different? what about tomboys or feminine men? are those a disorder too? is they behavior caused by hormones?

i could question why i prefer anything at a deep subconscious level, and by having it as a disorder, makes it easier for there still be a stigma and prejudice to being trans*

I would suggest enrolling in a Biology class at your local college or school because I see a deep lack of understanding on Biology and it's effects on the body. Genetic Biology plays a direct role in how a subject acts. How else could you explain how lower life forms know when and how to mate? Take the class and then come back and defend your position intellectually. :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 11:41:44 PM
I would suggest enrolling in a Biology class at your local college or school because I see a deep lack of understanding on Biology and it's effects on the body. Genetic Biology plays a direct role in how a subject acts. How else could you explain how lower life forms know when and how to mate? Take the class and then come back and defend your position intellectually. :)

fine then, though i would appreciate if you could explain where and why i'm wrong since me and my therapist usually talk about this subject, and i'll be able to have a better talk with her next time i go there

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 11:15:41 PM
Who would choose the things we have to do to be the real us? The urge to transition makes some of us give up everything we had. My Endo even warned me that "E" could change my gender preference. Why? Because I would chemically be drawn and respond differently to smells, tastes, colors and other biological causes. Talk to any Endo if you would like proof of that. Why do certain things cause an allergic reaction? Chemical imbalances and tolerances, that's why. Same thing with being transgendered. My doctor took me off of 12 daily meds for health issue's. It seems my body (chemically) doesn't respond correctly with "T" in my system. That's pretty conclusive to me. :)

That is pretty conclusive Jessica and amazing. So you're health issues improved now that you're on "E"?   

Oh, and excellent point about being open minded towards my family possibly being open minded towards me.

I agree that the amount of suffering we have to go through to live who we are is not something we would choose

From what I have read there is a biological basis for gender differences and that it is caused in utero where the mother is subject to a stimulus approximately 1 month after conception which causes an abnormal hormone flow (e.g. from significant stress) which genders the brain in a manner which is inconsistent with the gendered body (male brain female body etc).  A lot of this is still theory but does appear to be supported by post mortem (albeit small sample sizes) brain studies.

The more topical and emotive question to me is whether a woman is a social construct (as Germaine Greer and many sociologists do in fact argue) and that the behaviours, expectations and treatment accorded to them by society cause gendered differences in behaviour.  Interestingly there is now a fairly robust body of research from UCLA on Affect Regulation which posits and provides support for the theory that a brain and personality responds to its environment (e.g. interaction of a baby with its mother etc), that hormonal flows are triggered, new pathways form and brain development follows.  It seems to me that research in this area would suggest that nature (biological reasons) and nurture (social interaction) therefore combine in human development.

At a personal level I admit that I am more receptive to and supportive of a biological explanation for my tg nature.  It means that I am not broken and cannot be 'fixed' by appropriate counselling.  Indeed the immediate and profound impact of hrt supports this explanation and is often quoted as a valid diagnostic tool in treating tg folk.  Taking low dose hrt (in my case an AA and E) stimulates physical changes which appears to seek to make my brain, hormones and body more congruent.  How I deal with this is then a personal choice - and indeed subject to all of the tradeoffs facing an individual considering a full transition.  For me a more androgynous presentation combined with my female brain and more appropriate hormones (even if low dose) has been immensely beneficial and at this stage is enough given the profound benefits that I have felt, so I am not contemplating a full transition.

All of the above has at times proved confounding and confusing.  This coupled with the widely accepted notion that brains and identity are not necessarily binary has left me with a lot of choice.  Only by conscious engagement with and seeking to understand my core identity or self have I been able to plot  a path and direction that works for me. 

If the above ramble suggests an overly analytic and structured approach then I am indeed guilty.  I tend to live in my head rather than in my heart but I am aware of this and am improving in this area.  The result is that I am overly influenced by nuance, rarely accept an easy or obvious answer so for me the excitement is now in my journey rather than in reaching a final destination because I suspect that for me there isn't a binary outcome and my fate and blessing is to continue to change, grow and transition.

Safe travels

Aisla

I really like how you articulated this Aisla.  It's excellent. Do you have any book recommendations? 

The hormone exposure in utero makes sense to me.  It makes me wonder if there are certain critical periods in utero where hormones have a larger impact on the development of gender.  This is a weird analogy but baby ducks have a certain critical period in their development where they recognize who their mother is and will follow "her" around.  If, during this critical period they are exposed to someone other than a "mother duck" they will bond to that object even if it's not a duck and follow that person around. 

I am definitely more supportive of a biological explanation for all of this. I've spent so much money on therapy--analysis, everything. Nothing helped or even got to the amount of shame I felt growing up. 

I like you're analytic and structured approach to this. It's been quite helpful.

TRyan

A quick repost first "Your views are converging with mine and they are being continually reinforced by hrt, counselling, conscious choice, life experience and an increasing number of writers  and the latest views from integrated rather than binary (nature v nurture) thinkers.  I have always enjoyed Kate Bornstein and her latest workbook is no different - it strongly supports her views on gender fluidity and choice. 
Perhaps more impactful has been a massive body of work from Allan Shore developing and applying his theory on affect regulation and the origin of self et al.  His ability to bring together neurobiology, developmental neurochemistry, behavioral neurology, evolutionary biology, developmental psychology, developmental psychoanalysis and infant psychiatry is truly impressive.  As a layperson I have found his argument that the sense of self and therefore gender is a combined neurobiological-social-emotional expression resonates and aligns with my view that chemical/structural (hrt/brain structure) and environmental (socialisation) interact in a constantly changing dance that we can either choose to fight and suffer stress or dissonance or choose to embrace and evolve."

Shore's various books are available on Amazon - his first,  Affect Regulation and the Origin of the Self: The Neurobiology of Emotional Development by Allan N. Schore (May 13, 1999) is pretty heavy but it is a good place to start.  Re in utero stress and the timing of brain gendering is discussed in numerous studies and only occurs in a precise window a few weeks after conception.  This should be easily googled.  Useful research articles which have just been released for free are also available from Routledge Journals which "proudly offers FREE ACCESS to a collection of over 40 mental health and counselling articles".  Again this appeals to and resonates with my overly analytic approach.  I do tend to over analyse and to intellectualise these issues - perhaps the cause of a tg brain and identity is captive to the paradigm of the day so it may be better for folk like me to just accept that I am tg, that I just am, own this, live this and express this and get out of my brain and into my heart.... just saying!!!

Safe travels

Aisla

A professor at Stanford University explaining trans brains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3C4ZJ7HyuE

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 17, 2014, 10:46:17 PM
i'd be interested in seeing it, as i don't understand how could something biological define things that we like or identify as that are considered male or female things by society, at least that's my take on it

The simplest example that is NOT scientific I can give is a picture that my parents had of me when I was about two.  Christmas Day my brother playing with a new toy train by himself and me with my sisters using one of their new tea party sets.  I was way to young to understand gender roles at that time so I did what came naturally.  I am sure most of us have a similar experience but to me that screams biology

I don't believe it's 100% biological for everyone, simply because everyone has different stories. If your brain is male but you're biologically female, you're probably the kind of person who's known since they were a kid and who assumed they'd develop a male body. Not everyone has that story. If it was biological for all trans people, it'd be something we all knew since we were very young.

I think it can be biological and is in a lot of cases, but I also think it can be mental or brought on by other external factors. That's not to make it sound like it's a mental illness or that it's trivial, that's NOT what I'm saying. I'm just saying that I think there are lots of things in life, even tiny things, that influence us in life. And that's not to say that you subconsciously choose to be trans, it's just that your brain naturally develops in that way because of external factors for some people. I think that's why everyone has a different story and a different way of seeing things; because our development isn't always identical.

As I say, this is just my own, personal, theory, and I wouldn't put my theory onto anyone else, I'm just saying it because of the topic. I don't think the why matters. Sure, if it's proven one day why people are trans, it'll be great, a lot of people will shut up hating people for simply being who they are. But it doesn't change the fact that we are who we are.

Quote from: Jason C on April 18, 2014, 06:24:46 AM
I don't believe it's 100% biological for everyone, simply because everyone has different stories. If your brain is male but you're biologically female, you're probably the kind of person who's known since they were a kid and who assumed they'd develop a male body. Not everyone has that story. If it was biological for all trans people, it'd be something we all knew since we were very young.

I think it can be biological and is in a lot of cases, but I also think it can be mental or brought on by other external factors. That's not to make it sound like it's a mental illness or that it's trivial, that's NOT what I'm saying. I'm just saying that I think there are lots of things in life, even tiny things, that influence us in life. And that's not to say that you subconsciously choose to be trans, it's just that your brain naturally develops in that way because of external factors for some people. I think that's why everyone has a different story and a different way of seeing things; because our development isn't always identical.

As I say, this is just my own, personal, theory, and I wouldn't put my theory onto anyone else, I'm just saying it because of the topic. I don't think the why matters. Sure, if it's proven one day why people are trans, it'll be great, a lot of people will shut up hating people for simply being who they are. But it doesn't change the fact that we are who we are.

I honestly feel the same way about homosexuality. That although most are bio gay and born that way, there are a small minority that literally choose to be gay. In fact, I know two gay men who have admitted as much to me, but whether you'd want to say they were simply in denial before hand, that's up to you.

I'm a little offended by the suggestion that because I didn't know from young that I had the "wrong body", that I'm the type that chooses it as you imply. Almost as if those who have direct gender dysphoria are more legitimate than those who have indirect gender dysphoria. You don't say this is the case exclusively of course, but I'd like to express that even though I only came out to myself fairly recently, it's pretty obvious in retrospect that it has been a lifelong issue, behind the scenes. It was always there, it didn't arrive due to trauma or tragic circumstances, I just refused to see it. Indirect gender dysphoria is just as 'real'.

I'm sure there are transwomen and transmen that somehow decided that, for some reason, they'd like to live life on the 'wild side' and play with their gender, but for most of us, living as the wrong gender is torture, and has been throughout our nurture phase. To me, that rings nature, but I'm not opposed to the suggestion it's a little of both. For me, I know it was more nature than anything, but each to their own. I think more studies need to be made personally.

Quote from: ThatGirl on April 18, 2014, 04:52:50 AM
A professor at Stanford University explaining trans brains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3C4ZJ7HyuE

Thanks for posting that, I think it's very interesting. I'm going to look into the topic from an academic pov and see what else I can find :)

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 17, 2014, 11:57:48 PM
fine then, though i would appreciate if you could explain where and why i'm wrong since me and my therapist usually talk about this subject, and i'll be able to have a better talk with her next time i go there

I don't have time to cover your question in as much detail as I'd like, but I think the problem here is you equate gender 'roles' (which are socially constructed) with gender behaviour in general (which people are predisposed to). A lot of behaviour is pre-programmed genetically (more than a lot of us would like to admit) in the same way that cats are - programmed - to scratch the often non-existent dirt after doing their business, or the way that beavers will literally build invisible dams, out of invisible logs, whilst in captivity, simply because they are programmed to do so.

I'm not suggesting that wearing dresses and playing with barbies in itself is genetic (although the barbie doll connection to femininity has actually been somewhat proved genetically by a small number of studies, not my point though) what I am suggesting, is that a predisposition to integration into the female behaviour roles of our species IS genetic, which means that certain things which are culturally connected to femininity, regardless of the era, will be adopted by a person who identifies with that specific gender, almost automatically (programmed behaviour) as a survival mechanism.

Now, the fact that transpeople identify and derive a feeling of normalcy from things which they are NOT supposed to be predisposed to, suggests a biological problem in the wiring at some point during development, which is what the studies are, and will most likely, continue to illustrate. This of course paints a very binary picture, but that's just for simplicity. The truth may be that, depending on the genetic milkshake that you begin as, and the development cycle, you align more with either one or the other gender, until one becomes dominant. Everybody would sit somewhere on the scale. Some women act more manly, some men more feminine. For those of us that are way off the scale in extremes (a male who is extremely feminine and identifies as a woman, for example) I'd suggest something problematic happened at some point during development. Although I understand that there are those who would be outright OFFENDED by the idea that they are some genetic anomaly, it may be the reality. It doesn't mean, however, that we should be considered freaks or ill, just that we didn't develop in an entirely normal way (which judging from our experience growing up, I think we can mostly agree on).

This doesn't mean, however, that I'm suggesting that women are predisposed to ironing and washing dishes, I'm not talking about culturally assigned gender roles of the current or previous era, but preprogrammed gender behaviour (the way we women speak, the mannerisms, the way we socialize, the desires, how we react to other women, or men, et cetera, et cetera...) which probably originate from hundreds of thousands of years ago, in the very least (evolutionary adaptation takes... a longgg... time... )

I'm not sure if that's clear, but again, I'd recommend reading the book I mentioned earlier.

For my part, I'm always skeptical of the biological explanations.  The problem is that there is an enormous cultural bias for seeing behaviors as inborn, and over and over again, we see very scientific studies which supposedly "prove" some biological basis for something which later turn out to have serious and fundamental flaws.  In most cases it isn't deliberate, but rather that people see what they expect to see, and frame what they see in terms of how they think things are.  Differences that agree with people's expectations get noticed and reported, things that don't agree get explained away, ignored, or just not seen at all.

BTW, by "skeptical", I don't mean I'm convinced they're wrong, I just mean I'm not prepared to believe the supposed evidence for them.

Brain functioning: it makes no sense to talk about "women's brains" vs. "men's brains,"  because women's brains aren't all alike and neither are men's brains.  For almost any measurement X you take of men and women, you'll find a large number of women who are more "male" than the male average and a lot of men who are more "female" than the female average.  I suspect that if you looked at brain scans of 1000 men and 1000 women and tried to figure out the sex just from the scans, you'd get a _lot_ of them wrong.  Popular reports (and books) usually just report the averages, not the distributions -- or they just say "they're different."  Next, how does one relate a difference in brain scans to actual behavior?  Nobody has any idea, and you could just as well relate a difference in hair length to behavior.  Finally, it's known that environment shapes brain development.  So even if there's a significant difference in brain functioning between men and women and that difference causes men to act more male, etc., that difference could be due to early influences.

We know that people's social environment affects how they behave and how they see themselves, and that it starts at birth (if not before.)  The gender policing starts even before birth, with people insisting on knowing unborn children's sex, with color-coding infants, with how even newborns are described and treated in a gender-dependent fashion.  Most children have a pretty good idea of "what boys are" and "what girls are" by the time they can talk.

On the other hand, "affects" doesn't mean "determines."  Different children will react differently to the same influences.  For instance, if you are told "you are a boy" and "boys like trucks", but you don't like trucks, you can either try to convince yourself you really like trucks, or you can decide you aren't really a boy because you really don't like trucks.  (Yes, this is very, very, very oversimplified.)  This mostly happens at a very early age, before (almost) any memories that are retained into adulthood.  (Although: I can remember at an early age -- before 6, at least -- consciously deciding to like trains because my father did.  And now, over a half-century later, I'm still fascinated by them.)

But in the end, what does it matter?  It's like asking whether Homer really wrote the Illiad and the Odyssy or some other ancient Greek bard did it.  (Answer: it was really a guy named George, but his buddies saw an episode of The Simpsons and decided to call him "Homer."  But I digress....)

Whether it's your genes, or the chemicals while you were in the womb, or early influences, or that comet you saw when you were twelve (or that spinning wheel you pricked yourself on :) ), you're still the way you are, and that's what you have to deal with -- and what should determine how people should treat you -- not any of the putative causes.

It reminds me of the arguments about whether gays/lesbians were "born that way" or not.  Basic decency and respect should tell us that gays/lesbians/etc. should not get fired, beaten up, thrown out of their homes, arrested, or killed for being gay/lesbian, regardless of why they're gay/lesbian.  Basic decency and respect should tell us that they should be allowed to form the same social commitments (marriage) as straights, regardless of why they're gay/lesbian.

In the same way, figuring out what anatomical and social gender is right for you doesn't really depend on why you are the way you are, and whether society should respect your conclusions and decisions on that score doesn't depend on why, either.

Quote from: Asche on April 18, 2014, 08:23:35 AM
For my part, I'm always skeptical of the biological explanations.  The problem is that there is an enormous cultural bias for seeing behaviors as inborn, and over and over again, we see very scientific studies which supposedly "prove" some biological basis for something which later turn out to have serious and fundamental flaws.  In most cases it isn't deliberate, but rather that people see what they expect to see, and frame what they see in terms of how they think things are.  Differences that agree with people's expectations get noticed and reported, things that don't agree get explained away, ignored, or just not seen at all.

BTW, by "skeptical", I don't mean I'm convinced they're wrong, I just mean I'm not prepared to believe the supposed evidence for them.

Brain functioning: it makes no sense to talk about "women's brains" vs. "men's brains,"  because women's brains aren't all alike and neither are men's brains.  For almost any measurement X you take of men and women, you'll find a large number of women who are more "male" than the male average and a lot of men who are more "female" than the female average.  I suspect that if you looked at brain scans of 1000 men and 1000 women and tried to figure out the sex just from the scans, you'd get a _lot_ of them wrong.  Popular reports (and books) usually just report the averages, not the distributions -- or they just say "they're different."  Next, how does one relate a difference in brain scans to actual behavior?  Nobody has any idea, and you could just as well relate a difference in hair length to behavior.  Finally, it's known that environment shapes brain development.  So even if there's a significant difference in brain functioning between men and women and that difference causes men to act more male, etc., that difference could be due to early influences.

We know that people's social environment affects how they behave and how they see themselves, and that it starts at birth (if not before.)  The gender policing starts even before birth, with people insisting on knowing unborn children's sex, with color-coding infants, with how even newborns are described and treated in a gender-dependent fashion.  Most children have a pretty good idea of "what boys are" and "what girls are" by the time they can talk.

On the other hand, "affects" doesn't mean "determines."  Different children will react differently to the same influences.  For instance, if you are told "you are a boy" and "boys like trucks", but you don't like trucks, you can either try to convince yourself you really like trucks, or you can decide you aren't really a boy because you really don't like trucks.  (Yes, this is very, very, very oversimplified.)  This mostly happens at a very early age, before (almost) any memories that are retained into adulthood.  (Although: I can remember at an early age -- before 6, at least -- consciously deciding to like trains because my father did.  And now, over a half-century later, I'm still fascinated by them.)

I think you're committing the problem of separating humans from the rest of the animal kingdom in your analysis of the issue. Yes, humans have more advanced cognitive abilities, but they stem from the same primitive processes as our evolutionary ancestors. By focusing on humans exclusively, the trap of getting caught in the complexity of cognition is too easy to make (aka gender roles, sociology, psychology, cultural pressures) whereas you can get very clear ideas on the links between genetic make up and behaviour by simply studying animal behaviour. There are very clear differences in behaviour among animals, very often marked along the gender line. Now, the differences don't always fall in the same way (the female isn't always the care-giver, the male not always the dominant protector, etc) but regardless, the differences in gender and the differences in behaviour due to that gender divide is very, very clear. All I'm suggesting is, extrapolate that data and add the complexity of human abstract thought to the mix, and suddenly you have something that resembles our culture, along with gender roles. My initial point (in my initial post) was that gender roles are themselves a reflection of the gender defined behaviours that our species probably adapted during early evolution.  I do understand what you're saying, and I'm not saying I disagree that the social element isn't huge, but I think that it does all stem back down to biology. Just my 2 cents, obviously this is a debate that will not get solved in some little corner of the internet, but will require a LOT of research in these fields.

Quote from: Asche on April 18, 2014, 08:23:35 AM
But in the end, what does it matter?  It's like asking whether Homer really wrote the Illiad and the Odyssy or some other ancient Greek bard did it.  (Answer: it was really a guy named George, but his buddies saw an episode of The Simpsons and decided to call him "Homer."  But I digress....)

Whether it's your genes, or the chemicals while you were in the womb, or early influences, or that comet you saw when you were twelve (or that spinning wheel you pricked yourself on :) ), you're still the way you are, and that's what you have to deal with -- and what should determine how people should treat you -- not any of the putative causes.

It reminds me of the arguments about whether gays/lesbians were "born that way" or not.  Basic decency and respect should tell us that gays/lesbians/etc. should not get fired, beaten up, thrown out of their homes, arrested, or killed for being gay/lesbian, regardless of why they're gay/lesbian.  Basic decency and respect should tell us that they should be allowed to form the same social commitments (marriage) as straights, regardless of why they're gay/lesbian.

In the same way, figuring out what anatomical and social gender is right for you doesn't really depend on why you are the way you are, and whether society should respect your conclusions and decisions on that score doesn't depend on why, either.

And this I wholeheartedly agree with. I don't really think it matters at all, you are what you are and that's that. For me personally though, I'm not 'making a choice'. I didn't wake up one day wanting to be something I'm not. I'm 'fixing' a problem that I've had my entire life, a problem that was not my fault, and that I've suffered with, for all that time. I'm wanting to be something I always was, and that's fundamentally a different thing. Maybe to you it sounds like the same difference, but to me it isn't.

Can we stop conflating gender with gender roles?
Gender is a real, biological thing which has been backed up by scientific studies and will most likely be confirmed by more.
Gender roles have no biological basis (that has been found and is unlikely to) and are something completely different. Women can be "masculine" without turning into guys. Men can be "feminine" without turning into women.

Quote from: Nattie on April 18, 2014, 07:41:48 AM
I honestly feel the same way about homosexuality. That although most are bio gay and born that way, there are a small minority that literally choose to be gay. In fact, I know two gay men who have admitted as much to me, but whether you'd want to say they were simply in denial before hand, that's up to you.

I'm a little offended by the suggestion that because I didn't know from young that I had the "wrong body", that I'm the type that chooses it as you imply. Almost as if those who have direct gender dysphoria are more legitimate than those who have indirect gender dysphoria. You don't say this is the case exclusively of course, but I'd like to express that even though I only came out to myself fairly recently, it's pretty obvious in retrospect that it has been a lifelong issue, behind the scenes. It was always there, it didn't arrive due to trauma or tragic circumstances, I just refused to see it. Indirect gender dysphoria is just as 'real'.

I'm sure there are transwomen and transmen that somehow decided that, for some reason, they'd like to live life on the 'wild side' and play with their gender, but for most of us, living as the wrong gender is torture, and has been throughout our nurture phase. To me, that rings nature, but I'm not opposed to the suggestion it's a little of both. For me, I know it was more nature than anything, but each to their own. I think more studies need to be made personally.

If you read that sentence again, I said that's NOT to say that people subconsciously choose to be trans. I don't believe anyone chooses it, whether consciously or subconsciously. I said that it isn't something that anyone chooses, but for people, like myself, who didn't always know it from a very young age, it might possibly be the way their mind has naturally developed through external factors.

Quote from: Jason C on April 18, 2014, 08:59:21 AM
If you read that sentence again, I said that's NOT to say that people subconsciously choose to be trans. I don't believe anyone chooses it, whether consciously or subconsciously. I said that it isn't something that anyone chooses, but for people, like myself, who didn't always know it from a very young age, it might possibly be the way their mind has naturally developed through external factors.

Whoops, sorry Jason! ^^ Likewise, I didn't know from a young age, but still, I'd find it hard to believe it was events that somehow made me this way. I know many people that went through events much like what I did in school and their home lives and don't seem to exhibit any gender identity confusion, but we are each so varied in how we respond to stimuli, so who knows.

Quote from: Nattie on April 18, 2014, 09:15:51 AM

Quote from: Jason C on April 18, 2014, 08:59:21 AM
If you read that sentence again, I said that's NOT to say that people subconsciously choose to be trans. I don't believe anyone chooses it, whether consciously or subconsciously. I said that it isn't something that anyone chooses, but for people, like myself, who didn't always know it from a very young age, it might possibly be the way their mind has naturally developed through external factors.

Whoops, sorry Jason! ^^ Likewise, I didn't know from a young age, but still, I'd find it hard to believe it was events that somehow made me this way. I know many people that went through events much like what I did in school and their home lives and don't seem to exhibit any gender identity confusion, but we are each so varied in how we respond to stimuli, so who knows.

Interesting convo. I sometimes wonder if there are different causes. Or maybe there could be a variety of causes with it still happening in the womb that manifest differently. There are people for whom this is such a very clear thing early on and others it's not. Maybe there are people for whom it was a more complete masculinization or feminization of the brain. And these might be those who are very stereotypically their target gender. Extremely feminine, straight trans girls. Or extremely masculine, straight trans boys.

I think sexual orientation also plays some part in all this for a trans person. For how this all plays out. I know gender and sexual orientation are important distinctions. But generally, people hoping to attract males are going to engage in certain behaviors less common for people into females. And vice versa. I know it's a generalization and not true for everybody.
But I think this could help explain the vast differences in the lives of straight and lesbian trans women. The latter are just more likely to have adopted a more stereotypically male role. (Not everybody, of course)

Because they were into women, they felt more pressure to live up to male expectations than those who grew up liking men. Basically, males and females are attracted to different things in a partner. So young lesbian trans girls were more likely to develop a more masculine persona than the straight girls. That's my theory, anyway. And I know it doesn't always hold out - some lesbian trans girls didn't do this.

And orientation - maybe whatever 'sexual attraction' part in the brain was left untouched in the hormonal baths of gay and lesbian trans men and women. Again, just an idea.

I think denial can also be stronger than people give it credit.
Personally, I know I picked up effeminate mannerisms to try to pretend to be normal and especially after I was raped because of how badly that affected my mind. Currently, those mannerisms make me very uncomfortable though.

This is a very interesting conversation. I am transitioning later in life and I never knew a thing until it walloped me in my 40s. Now, looking back with the knowledge of who I really am I can clearly see the clues, behaviors, feelings, and the facade I carefully constructed to protect my real self. It wasn't denial; it was more ignorance and all of the expectations put on me as an apparent bio-male. I didn't know any different.

I have all of the classic symptoms of exposure to DES but my mother says she didn't take it during her pregnancy. Who knows what happened back then, but something clearly did.

I was under no pressure socially or in any other way to transition - that pressure came from inside me. That's why the biological in utero theory resonates strongly with me.

Hopefully some day soon definitive proof will be found and all of the grief we have to endure that comes from people thinking this is a lifestyle choice will end.

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 17, 2014, 10:46:17 PM
i'd be interested in seeing it, as i don't understand how could something biological define things that we like or identify as that are considered male or female things by society, at least that's my take on it

Autism.  Hinders sociality, sets us with obsessive interests, specific preferences on sensory stimuli, certain noises and sensations are horrible while others are great, all to a degree well beyond normal, and is something we have little to no control over.

Autism is caused by our brains being wired very differently than the normal.  This biological change to our neurobiology results in autism.  Mri scans have shown the different sections of the brain used for tasks and how entirely different sections of the brain are used depending on whether it is an autistic brain or not.

We aren't that little voice in our head.  We are our brains.  The whole of it.  The frontal lobe is our consciousness.  It is our awareness and the thoughts we hear.  But the sections that control our ability to form and understand speech exist in left parietal lobe.  Without these you wouldn't have that voice that we so often define ourselves as, because it couldn't produce the words, or understand them.  Our emotions and feelings and preferences and likes and dislikes all stem from other regions of our brain.

Damaging any section of the brain can vastly change a person's personality, interests and likes.  This is why electroshock therapy was ever a thing.  It worked.  Damage the regions of the brain to severely alter a person's behavior.  It was effective, and so people overlooked the barbarism of it for a long time.

We aren't that little voice.  We are our brain, its wiring and its structure.  That's biological.



The fact that gender identity issues are horrible and agonizing and we fight them until we just don't have the strength to anymore and resign ourselves to the harsh realities, realities we don't want, of being openly trans in the world, I don't see how it can simply be optional based on preference.  I can prefer things and not indulge.  I can live without.  Preference are choices.  I wish I had the option and choice to be normal, to not be trans.  Life would be better, and I wouldn't be scared that death is the only way I'll truly find peace.  But it's not a choice, and I am stuck with this bitter reality and 30 years of agony because of it.  I prefer to be normal.   I am not.  I am trans.

Social gender constructs do, however, exist.  Back in shakespearean times tights were masculine.  Today, feminine.  Pink was a masculine color, blue feminine.  Pink was warm, warm colors were for men, cool colors like blue were for women.

Dress, colors, social gender roles, all of these are society based and change from time to time and culture to culture.  This however doesn't mean there aren't biological differences and roles.  There are.  These are found everywhere in nature.  Difference being?  Rarely is the much of an inequality in nature between the genders.

But we aren't trans because we want to wear clothes society deems feminine or masculine.  I mean, we can be.  Crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s fall under the transgender label.  However they still tend to identify with their birth sex, but have a preference for the clothes and things society deems belongs to the opposite gender.

That fits SilverGirl's idea of transgender being a preference over biological.  But it only works for crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s.

For the rest of us, who identify as the opposite gender, or neither, or inbetween, it doesn't.  My identity isn't female because I want to wear dresses and makeup.  Remove societal gender constructs and I will still be dysphoric.  Gender expression and society do go together however.  I grew up in the same society and culture as the girls around me.  Getting the same messages as them about what is for boys and what is for girls.  And being a girl, I wanted to join in with the girl stuff.  But that was barred because the rest of the world saw me as a boy.  Yes society does aggrevate our dysphoria something fierce by separating things into "for boys" and "for girls", but it doesn't create the dysphoria.  It was already there, these things just made it worse.

Trans* people get the same societal messages as cispeople do, and are taught the same things and then banned from expressing our gender.  There is no biological cause to want to wear a dress.  There is a biological cause giving me a female identity though.  And I was raised and shaped by the same society and it's socially constructed gender norms as cisgendered people around me were.  I got the same messages they did.  I am female, these are female things.  Then I was locked up on the with the boys and the boy things. 

Biologically there is a reason for my female identity.  I was then influenced the same as everyone else by the society I was raised in.  I would still be dysphoric without society.

Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 10:03:47 AM
Interesting convo. I sometimes wonder if there are different causes. Or maybe there could be a variety of causes with it still happening in the womb that manifest differently. There are people for whom this is such a very clear thing early on and others it's not. Maybe there are people for whom it was a more complete masculinization or feminization of the brain. And these might be those who are very stereotypically their target gender. Extremely feminine, straight trans girls. Or extremely masculine, straight trans boys.

There may very well be a great deal of things that could happen in the womb that would cause it, I'd think. We know that outside influences do affect development, as well as internal situations (stress versus serenity for the mother). When I came out to my mother, one of the first things she said was 'Is it because you were prem?'. I laughed, if that were the case every prem. baby would be dysphoric, but maybe the same things that led to be being dysphoric led to me being premature? Who knows?

Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 10:03:47 AM
I think sexual orientation also plays some part in all this for a trans person. For how this all plays out. I know gender and sexual orientation are important distinctions. But generally, people hoping to attract males are going to engage in certain behaviors less common for people into females. And vice versa. I know it's a generalization and not true for everybody.
But I think this could help explain the vast differences in the lives of straight and lesbian trans women. The latter are just more likely to have adopted a more stereotypically male role. (Not everybody, of course)

Because they were into women, they felt more pressure to live up to male expectations than those who grew up liking men. Basically, males and females are attracted to different things in a partner. So young lesbian trans girls were more likely to develop a more masculine persona than the straight girls. That's my theory, anyway. And I know it doesn't always hold out - some lesbian trans girls didn't do this.

And orientation - maybe whatever 'sexual attraction' part in the brain was left untouched in the hormonal baths of gay and lesbian trans men and women. Again, just an idea.

Sexual Orientation certainly played a part in my denial or understanding (or lack thereof) of my dysphoria. The reason why I didn't click, is because I have always been attracted to women, and still am. In my head, I assumed that I couldn't be a woman if I was interested in women, so I ignored the deep feelings inside that told me otherwise. That being said, I've been attracted to women since around the age of five (maybe when I first realized I 'wasn't' one) which, compared to most males, is VERY early, so it's possible my attraction to women is a projection or manifestation of my desire to truly be a woman? Or maybe, like many women do, I just developed a sexual interest very early (most girls I know said their first crush came at about 5 - 6). 

If I am a natural lesbian (just born in the wrong gender, so to say) it might explain why I was less dysphoric about dressing in a masculine way and pretending to be masculine - and I was able to suppress it for so long (26 years)?  This may not be the case at all but I think it's an interesting angle.  I certainly think there's something to the sliding scale of femininity/masculinity during development that goes toward how you will integrate into society (and as which behavioural role).

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on April 18, 2014, 11:28:01 AM
The fact that gender identity issues are horrible and agonizing and we fight them until we just don't have the strength to anymore and resign ourselves to the harsh realities, realities we don't want, of being openly trans in the world, I don't see how it can simply be optional based on preference.  I can prefer things and not indulge.  I can live without.  Preference are choices.  I wish I had the option and choice to be normal, to not be trans.  Life would be better, and I wouldn't be scared that death is the only way I'll truly find peace.  But it's not a choice, and I am stuck with this bitter reality and 30 years of agony because of it.  I prefer to be normal.   I am not.  I am trans.

Exactly how I feel, thank you. This is why I find the choice aspect hard to swallow, but I also understand my experience (or yours) may not ring true for every transperson.

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on April 18, 2014, 12:38:07 PM
Dress, colors, social gender roles, all of these are society based and change from time to time and culture to culture.  This however doesn't mean there aren't biological differences and roles.  There are.  These are found everywhere in nature.  Difference being?  Rarely is the much of an inequality in nature between the genders.

That's really subjective, define inequality for an animal without abstract thought. I'd say the difference is that they behave the way they behave, and there's little flux. Depending on the level of dimorphism in the species, the females and males may behave completely differently, and how you'd define equality depends on what aspect you're defining. Child rearing? Food supply? Protection from predators? Mate selection? Which elements are equal, because in most cases these are far from equal between the genders of dimorphic species, depending on how you view it. I'm not attributing a positive or negative connotation to my use of the word equal by the way.

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on April 18, 2014, 12:38:07 PM
But we aren't trans because we want to wear clothes society deems feminine or masculine.  I mean, we can be.  Crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s fall under the transgender label.  However they still tend to identify with their birth sex, but have a preference for the clothes and things society deems belongs to the opposite gender.

That fits SilverGirl's idea of transgender being a preference over biological.  But it only works for crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s.

For the rest of us, who identify as the opposite gender, or neither, or inbetween, it doesn't.  My identity isn't female because I want to wear dresses and makeup.  Remove societal gender constructs and I will still be dysphoric.  Gender expression and society do go together however. I grew up in the same society and culture as the girls around me.  Getting the same messages as them about what is for boys and what is for girls.  And being a girl, I wanted to join in with the girl stuff.  But that was barred because the rest of the world saw me as a boy. Yes society does aggrevate our dysphoria something fierce by separating things into "for boys" and "for girls", but it doesn't create the dysphoria.  It was already there, these things just made it worse.

Trans* people get the same societal messages as cispeople do, and are taught the same things and then banned from expressing our gender.  There is no biological cause to want to wear a dress.  There is a biological cause giving me a female identity though.  And I was raised and shaped by the same society and it's socially constructed gender norms as cisgendered people around me were.  I got the same messages they did.  I am female, these are female things.  Then I was locked up on the with the boys and the boy things. 

Biologically there is a reason for my female identity.  I was then influenced the same as everyone else by the society I was raised in.  I would still be dysphoric without society.

Beautifully explained! This is exactly what I was trying to get at, but you've expressed it so eloquently. Thank you! I think that really is the best way to explain it. There is no biological basis behind culturally defined abstract femininity, but in the desire to integrate into the feminine itself.

When I first put on female clothes, for example, I felt euphoric, after spending a lifetime crossdressing in male clothes. It felt so good that I could have easily attributed the feeling to a predisposition to wearing female clothes, as odd as that would be, but the more likely is, my desire to integrate into society as a woman, and be seen as a women, projects onto those things which hold 'femininity' in society. A bra, which is never worn by a man, instantly eases dysphoria, because it makes you suddenly feel closer to what your biological drive has been pushing for, integration into the correct gender role (regardless of the culture built up around it).

I have recently found out that my mother was producing far too much oestrogen while she was pregnant with me. She had all manor of tests done and the doctor's were very worried that I wouldn't stay in there. They never discovered why her levels were so high, she was not taking DES or similar .

I am now convinced that I was essentially undergoing HRT whilst in the womb and my body and brain were becoming female. Once I was born, testosterone took over and gradually made my body revert to type (yuk!) but not my brain.

I am hoping to start HRT in a month or two, which in my opinion, will finish the process begun all those years ago.

I had come to terms with my dysphoria before I found out about this and was already on the path to transition but this revelation was the final piece of the puzzle. Everything just clicked into place. Having a plausible explanation has really helped me and is going to make my job coming out to my remaining family and friends a little easier !

I can't say whether there is always a biological or genetic cause for GID but for my personal situation the evidence would suggest a resounding yes to that.

Nicki

Late to the party (as usual), but I'll put in my two cents.

I experienced being transgender as something that was wired into my brain. I've been able to change habits. I've been able to reevaluate biases. I've been able to change patterns of my own thinking that were entrenched for decades. My likes and dislikes can turn on a dime.

But the part of my brain that is telling me how wonderful it is to be a woman will not budge. It cannot be bought, bargained with, or tempted. It doesn't balance costs and benefits, risks and probabilities. It is not open to logic or emotional appeal, or even fear. It does not present evidence or even appear to have any rational origin. It just insists that I need to be female.

No other process within my brain works that way. In most cases, if I'm presented with a compelling case one way or the other, I'll reevaluate. Otherwise the decision is up to me.

But as far as my gender, the decision is made. Nothing I could do could change it, and that part of my brain was going to MAKE SURE that I KEPT THINKING ABOUT IT until I AGREED 100% to transition.

If I hadn't already heard a lot about transgender when this was going on, I would literally have thought I was gripped by some delusional mania, because here I was, a logical, competent person, capable of managing every aspect of my life, now willing to throw away marriage, possibly a career it took a dozen years to build, possibly even the kids who mean more to me than anything else in the world, just to become a woman.

Folks, this is wired into our brains. There is no way this is an idea I had along the way.

Quote from: Nattie on April 18, 2014, 07:54:17 PM
That's really subjective, define inequality for an animal without abstract thought. I'd say the difference is that they behave the way they behave, and there's little flux. Depending on the level of dimorphism in the species, the females and males may behave completely differently, and how you'd define equality depends on what aspect you're defining. Child rearing? Food supply? Protection from predators? Mate selection? Which elements are equal, because in most cases these are far from equal between the genders of dimorphic species, depending on how you view it. I'm not attributing a positive or negative connotation to my use of the word equal by the way.

Yeah, I'm not sure where I was going with that to be honest.  Whatever my train of thought was then it's gone now, and your counter of it is excellent and spot on.

Quote from: Nattie on April 18, 2014, 07:54:17 PM
Beautifully explained! This is exactly what I was trying to get at, but you've expressed it so eloquently. Thank you! I think that really is the best way to explain it. There is no biological basis behind culturally defined abstract femininity, but in the desire to integrate into the feminine itself.

When I first put on female clothes, for example, I felt euphoric, after spending a lifetime crossdressing in male clothes. It felt so good that I could have easily attributed the feeling to a predisposition to wearing female clothes, as odd as that would be, but the more likely is, my desire to integrate into society as a woman, and be seen as a women, projects onto those things which hold 'femininity' in society. A bra, which is never worn by a man, instantly eases dysphoria, because it makes you suddenly feel closer to what your biological drive has been pushing for, integration into the correct gender role (regardless of the culture built up around it).

Thank you.  This is my big objection whenever someone tries to say that transwomen try to be caricatures of femininity.  That we focus too much on things society deems feminine like make-up and dresses and the like and there's more to being female than that.  As if we're trying to be a stereotype of a woman rather than a woman.

What they miss, besides the point that make-up and feminine attire and long hair often are necessary to help us pass and be accepted as a woman, and not misgendered (just like short hair and no makeup, and male clothes are helpful to transmen in passing.  We aren't the only ones that adopt social norms of our gender) is that as MtFs, we spent our lives unable to express our femininity whenever we wanted to in dress or make-up or whatever.  We weren't allowed.  We could don on pants though.  and wear our hair short, and go without make-up.  But we couldn't put on the dress, or make-up when we wanted to.  Those were barred from us.  They became symbols of what we couldn't and weren't allowed to be.  A lifetime of wanting and desiring to express our femininity as freely with those things as our cis-sisters were allowed to.  It was those things society deemed feminine that we couldn't enjoy with our cis-sisters, so naturally it is those things we yearn for the freedom to wear.

Quote from: TRyan on April 17, 2014, 09:41:23 PM
I'm curious as to why we are transgender?  Is it biological? 

I ask because years ago I had a therapist tell me it was not real and reflected a psychological problem.  I'm also preparing to come out to people and want to figure this out.

I should know this already but I don't. I've spent the past decade trying to pretend it doesn't exist and stuffing my feelings down.

Wow I was going to ask this too...I think it's biological but then I wonder if environment comes into play somehow...I wish I knew! I don't like that it gender dysphoria is referred to by some as a "mental disorder" because then it makes us seem like we're crazy for feeling like this and our minds can be changed through therapy, but it's engrained in you and it can not be reversed...I'd much rather it be referred to as a biological condition because then it shows that this is not our choice and we're not crazy   ;D

SilverGirl, there's a difference between.. gender roles and the things males and females just naturally act, or the things we are naturally attracted to.

If a guy wants to like makeup or girly things but still feels very much male then that's fine. That's where "gender roles" play in society. Or the opposite for women. Like a woman could be into stuff like cars, sports, guns, other things that are usually associated with men, but still feel very much like a woman, and still love BEING a woman. That doesn't mean they're trans or anything like that. That's the gender roles from society.

But in cases like being trans? Like where... in my case I was born female but identify and feel male.. That has to be a biological thing, I mean it makes no sense if it isn't. Whether I was born with higher than norm levels of T, or some other biological jargon that I am seriously not very educated on, and that's what makes me feel the way I do then I will go with the flow. I mean it makes me happier to be a man than I ever did being a woman.

I guess I still have some feminine like qualities to me.. Like have my girly giggle-snort moments, but for the most part? I'm really a guy on the inside, but just because I have feminine like moments doesn't mean it's from social pressure or anything. It's just who and how I am. Personalities, self identifications and preferences can be biological. Society can have an effect on it too, but mostly? It's biological. I mean I don't know how else to put it. We are who we are and we are quite frankly BORN this way and that within itself is a biological thing

Quote from: Confused888 on April 19, 2014, 03:24:45 PM
Wow I was going to ask this too...I think it's biological but then I wonder if environment comes into play somehow...I wish I knew! I don't like that it gender dysphoria is referred to by some as a "mental disorder" because then it makes us seem like we're crazy for feeling like this and our minds can be changed through therapy, but it's engrained in you and it can not be reversed...I'd much rather it be referred to as a biological condition because then it shows that this is not our choice and we're not crazy   ;D

I agree about not liking that gender dysphoria is currently viewed as a mental disorder.  As if!  It just makes more sense to me that it's biological. Especially since so many of us feel better on hormones that straighten our brains out. Someone who has diabetes has to take medication to treat it. People with MS (which used to be perceived as all in your head) have to take medications to treat it.

Maybe trans is similar except our medications are hormones. I don't view it as pathological but I have internalized society's view of it. I'm trying to break free of it enough to come out to people.

Quote from: Kade1985 on April 19, 2014, 06:25:07 PM
SilverGirl, there's a difference between.. gender roles and the things males and females just naturally act, or the things we are naturally attracted to.

If a guy wants to like makeup or girly things but still feels very much male then that's fine. That's where "gender roles" play in society. Or the opposite for women. Like a woman could be into stuff like cars, sports, guns, other things that are usually associated with men, but still feel very much like a woman, and still love BEING a woman. That doesn't mean they're trans or anything like that. That's the gender roles from society.

But in cases like being trans? Like where... in my case I was born female but identify and feel male.. That has to be a biological thing, I mean it makes no sense if it isn't. Whether I was born with higher than norm levels of T, or some other biological jargon that I am seriously not very educated on, and that's what makes me feel the way I do then I will go with the flow. I mean it makes me happier to be a man than I ever did being a woman.

I guess I still have some feminine like qualities to me.. Like have my girly giggle-snort moments, but for the most part? I'm really a guy on the inside, but just because I have feminine like moments doesn't mean it's from social pressure or anything. It's just who and how I am. Personalities, self identifications and preferences can be biological. Society can have an effect on it too, but mostly? It's biological. I mean I don't know how else to put it. We are who we are and we are quite frankly BORN this way and that within itself is a biological thing

Yeah-I agree.  It's strange because I don't necessarily identify as wanting to be a man. I just want to be me and that includes having secondary male characteristics.

I wonder why our culture gets so upset that we challenge binary gender norms. 

Now I have an interesting question that I just thought of. What would happen if gender was scientifically proven 100% to be biological and we were born this way, would insurance companies change their tunes? As of right now more insurance companies see it as a mental disorder, but if it was changed into a biological chemical disorder, what would happen then? Would it play in our favor or go the other way?

I personally find both sides of the coin interesting to learn about. I don't think gender has any construct to being compared and sided with gender roles and I lean towards the newer studies showing gender to be a hardwired thing and thus we are born this way.
I was one of those late bloomers, a person who likes having a name to identify with what I'm feeling or have. I identified as a tom boy up until I was 24 or so because I didn't know anything about transgender at all. I just denied and assumed because I didn't know any better. I was told I was a girl and I bent and went with it.
Does that make me any less trans? I don't think so. I think it brings into question how each person reacts to different things ect. In fact, once I was told I was a girl I let it go. My parents didn't stop me from playing boy sports, being rough and tumbling with my brothers ect so I stopped thinking about it. I was happy just being a kid.
But that all changed when I hit puberty. Course I still just went along with it because, what could I do when I didn't think there was a solution for what I was feeling?

Quote from: Hex on April 19, 2014, 09:45:14 PM
Now I have an interesting question that I just thought of. What would happen if gender was scientifically proven 100% to be biological and we were born this way, would insurance companies change their tunes? As of right now more insurance companies see it as a mental disorder, but if it was changed into a biological chemical disorder, what would happen then? Would it play in our favor or go the other way?

I personally find both sides of the coin interesting to learn about. I don't think gender has any construct to being compared and sided with gender roles and I lean towards the newer studies showing gender to be a hardwired thing and thus we are born this way.
I was one of those late bloomers, a person who likes having a name to identify with what I'm feeling or have. I identified as a tom boy up until I was 24 or so because I didn't know anything about transgender at all. I just denied and assumed because I didn't know any better. I was told I was a girl and I bent and went with it.
Does that make me any less trans? I don't think so. I think it brings into question how each person reacts to different things ect. In fact, once I was told I was a girl I let it go. My parents didn't stop me from playing boy sports, being rough and tumbling with my brothers ect so I stopped thinking about it. I was happy just being a kid.
But that all changed when I hit puberty. Course I still just went along with it because, what could I do when I didn't think there was a solution for what I was feeling?

I think it would play in our favor if it was proven it was biological.

I was a late, late bloomer.  I too identified as tomboy and was most happy playing with boys---then puberty hit and things changed.  They acted differently and I started becoming acquainted with shame (although shame started happening in kindergarten) and depression. 

I don't think gender is real honestly, there's no define between where it begins and ends, it's just a generalisation.

People vary between their masculinity and femininity, physically and psychologically, not just their estrogen and testosterone levels, but the responsiveness of our genes to testosterone and estrogen. As it's well known in the trans community that feminisation or masculination varies on hormone replacement therapy amongst individuals, depending on how responsive the persons gene coding is to particular hormones.

Mental consciousness/thoughts/self-identities reach a level higher in abstraction than predisposition of gender traits, complicating things further. You can build an entirely female idea of self-identity with a brain that's completely on the male spectrum/has no real feminization - neurology studies have shown.

Homosexual men: 10% of the population, a higher degree of symmetry between both the hemispheres and more connections between the amygladya, is why homosexual men are typically more socially intelligent/aware than heterosexual men, you could consider homosexuality not to be a sexuality but apart of the transgender continuum if the reason homosexual men are the way they are - is because they have a feminisation/transgender neurological element.

And so... There's probably homosexual men with more neurological feminisation than some transgender people (autogynophillic crossdressers) - that don't have an urge to transition or choose to.

It could be interesting to find out if homosexual men experience a level of autoeroticism to their own appearance, and that staying within the male role with a feminine neurology would be an autoeroticism without construct/just a natural facet.

Some people very heavily perceive gender as apart of their reality/construct of their world, it's actually more feminine not to recognise the binary as strongly, and so that leads to a contradiction of a sort: If you have a feminised neurology you could possibly not decide to transition because you're comfortable within the male role/vice versa.

Quote from: Terracotta on April 20, 2014, 07:41:02 AM
I don't think gender is real honestly, there's no define between where it begins and ends, it's just a generalisation.

People vary between their masculinity and femininity, physically and psychologically, not just their estrogen and testosterone levels, but the responsiveness of our genes to testosterone and estrogen. As it's well known in the trans community that feminisation or masculination varies on hormone replacement therapy amongst individuals, depending on how responsive the persons gene coding is to particular hormones.

To suggest that gender itself, on a biological level, is a 'generalization' is very strange to me. Yes, genetically, we have different predispositions to the effectiveness of testosterone and estrogen, which is genetic and has to do with an individual's genetic makeup, but that doesn't suggest that gender itself isn't real. What you seem to be saying is we take humans, who are born on a gender spectrum that falls somewhere between male and female, and then class it into two categories socially, and have built up society in this way. This is not the case, animals which reproduce sexually in the wild do not do this, nor do we. There are two biological genders. Intersex individuals develop irregularly (genetically speaking) in the womb. Mental gender identity is a different story.

Quote from: Terracotta on April 20, 2014, 07:41:02 AM
Mental consciousness/thoughts/self-identities reach a level higher in abstraction than predisposition of gender traits, complicating things further. You can build an entirely female idea of self-identity with a brain that's completely on the male spectrum/has no real feminization - neurology studies have shown.

I'd love the sources on this. I have spent my entire life self-identifying as a male, most probably within a feminized brain, and let me tell you, it did nothing.

Quote from: Terracotta on April 20, 2014, 07:41:02 AM
Homosexual men: 10% of the population, a higher degree of symmetry between both the hemispheres and more connections between the amygladya, is why homosexual men are typically more socially intelligent/aware than heterosexual men, you could consider homosexuality not to be a sexuality but apart of the transgender continuum if the reason homosexual men are the way they are - is because they have a feminisation/transgender neurological element.

And so... There's probably homosexual men with more neurological feminisation than some transgender people (autogynophillic crossdressers) - that don't have an urge to transition or choose to.

It could be interesting to find out if homosexual men experience a level of autoeroticism to their own appearance, and that staying within the male role with a feminine neurology would be an autoeroticism without construct/just a natural facet.

An interesting idea, but I think a lot of people (including myself) may have trouble with you saying that homosexual men are transwomen who aren't as feminine as transwomen and thus don't wish to, or feel a need to, transition (if that is what you're saying). I know many gay men who are very masculine, but love dick. I, on the other hand, a transwoman, hate dick (I'm a quote unquote dyke) so I think I'd wager it is a sexuality. Still interesting though. 

Quote from: Terracotta on April 20, 2014, 07:41:02 AM
Some people very heavily perceive gender as apart of their reality/construct of their world, it's actually more feminine not to recognise the binary as strongly, and so that leads to a contradiction of a sort: If you have a feminised neurology you could possibly not decide to transition because you're comfortable within the male role/vice versa.

So because I recognize the gender binary, on a biological level, being real - now I'm less feminine. Hehe, you may want to be careful in how you word things. I think your concept of gender is too closely linked to your concept of sexuality, or at least, that's how it comes across.

Quote from: Nattie on April 20, 2014, 10:13:14 AM
To suggest that gender itself, on a biological level, is a 'generalization' is very strange to me. Yes, genetically, we have different predispositions to the effectiveness of testosterone and estrogen, which is genetic and has to do with an individual's genetic makeup, but that doesn't suggest that gender itself isn't real. What you seem to be saying is we take humans, who are born on a gender spectrum that falls somewhere between male and female, and then class it into two categories socially, and have built up society in this way. This is not the case, animals which reproduce sexually in the wild do not do this, nor do we. There are two biological genders. Intersex individuals develop irregularly (genetically speaking) in the womb. Mental gender identity is a different story.

I refer primarily to mental/neurological gender having the most weight in my generalisation - (which is the part that matters). But to a degree the physical aswell, as it interplays.

QuoteI'd love the sources on this. I have spent my entire life self-identifying as a male, most probably within a feminized brain, and let me tell you, it did nothing.

To summarise: The gynophillic transsexual brain doesn't have traits which lay on a feminine spectrum but is a masculine brain that is different from the typical male brain sample. Part of this difference is an enlargement of the part of the brain responsible for self-awareness of body/being - Which may facilitate the autoeroticism part or be caused by it (enlarging that part of the brain in response to self-affixation.)

"....Conversely, gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals also show differences in the brain from non-transsexual males, but in a unique pattern different from being shifted in a female direction...."
http://m.cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/11/2525

Quote
An interesting idea, but I think a lot of people (including myself) may have trouble with you saying that homosexual men are transwomen who aren't as feminine as transwomen and thus don't wish to, or feel a need to, transition (if that is what you're saying). I know many gay men who are very masculine, but love dick. I, on the other hand, a transwoman, hate dick (I'm a quote unquote dyke) so I think I'd wager it is a sexuality. Still interesting though. 

So because I recognize the gender binary, on a biological level, being real - now I'm less feminine. Hehe, you may want to be careful in how you word things. I think your concept of gender is too closely linked to your concept of sexuality, or at least, that's how it comes across.

I know how provocative/offensive it comes across - I'm not here to be politically correct. I'm seeking honesty/truth/clarity of perspective/discussion. Just because it's offensive doesn't instantly render the idea/thought to be false.

Greetings ......

As I look around the world, the inescapable fact that people/other species have to "pay" for the sins of others is offensive to the last degree.

I am a 64 year old male. I have always felt I should be in a female body. I've known this since I was 6 years old. Yes, you can know that early in life.

My first grade class had desks that looked like "half-tables".  They were rectangular and each one would seat two children. They were all arranged in rows, end to end (I believe there were 4 rows) except for one desk which sat at the end of two rows against the wall, facing the aisle created by the other two rows.

At this desk sat the Hunt twins ......... anything but identical.
Our teacher used to have a little game. She would send a student outside the room. She would pick another student who would hide under the desk of the Hunt sisters and then call the student back into the room to see if they could determine who was "missing".

The first time that I was placed under the Hunt's desk, I sat there and stared at their Mary Janes and pink socks and dresses and knew that's how I wanted to dress.

Soon afterward, I began to play games  etc with the girls on the playground ..... jumprope, hopscotch, etc. I enjoyed it. I was readily accepted by the girls.

However, the boys ridiculed me constantly and I had to give it up to have any peace. My first experience with the ignorance of social conditioning. I was later to discover very few people can or want to reason ...... they only want to be entertained.

I was brought up in a very restricted time. Now, you folks can go to a doctor and get hormones ....... convene and discuss things among yourselves.

When I was growing up a "queer" was a man who  "hung around public restrooms and molested boys".

If you had even suggested that you "wanted to be a member of the opposite sex", you would have been permanently labeled as crazy ....... your parents and friends would reject/ostracize you and you would probably have been assaulted numerous times. We didn't have the luxury of allowing ourselves to even consider such possibilities.

My entire life has been a screwed-up mess.

I had relationships with three absolutely wonderful women. They were all bright, selfless, compassionate, honest, hardworking and caring. However, I managed to offend or emotionally abandon them to the point they all left ....... due to an unconscious dissastisfaction with my role, I think.

My father was a violent alcoholic who terrorized his family every weekend. He would begin drinking on Friday night and not stop till Sunday night. He never touched any of his kids or told them he loved them ......... never ..... until he died.

We had to fear the assault and maybe death of our mother constantly as he picked fights when he was drunk. He would get drunk and gamble money away. We had to worry, as kids, that we would be thrown onto the streets.

We were all messed up from that.

Additionally, I later learned from my mother that he had physically beaten her when she was pregnant with me. I wonder if the stress caused hormonal changes that effected me in the womb.

As to whether these things are biological ???? Yes ...... no one would choose to undergo the pain that goes with these conditions. If it is not a choice, it is biological. 

Quote

I know how provocative/offensive it comes across - I'm not here to be politically correct. I'm seeking honesty/truth/clarity of perspective/discussion. Just because it's offensive doesn't instantly render the idea/thought to be false.

With this particular statement along with the other stuff related to it... I honestly feel you OVER think the entire process and then mix sexuality with genderism and then somehow mix the two together which are never one and the same..

Seeking honesty/truth/clarity means you need to have an open mind to be right or wrong, dig for answers, and come to a conclusion. Not make one before the process even starts.

Terracotta

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.   While your view has merit and it is an alternate paradigm, it is just that, a paradigm.   At this stage I favor a biological explanation for ->-bleeped-<- but recognise environment may play a part hence my interest in affect theory.   Either way paradigms change when superior insight is provided by an alternate paradigm.   Neither may be 'the truth' but both offer insight.  Further research can only help.  Knowing that I am not a fetishist, defective or tg by choice is important to me and to others.  Whether or not believing in a biological explanation is only wishful thinking time will tell but it works for me.

Aisla

Quote from: Terracotta on April 20, 2014, 12:31:40 PM
To summarise: The gynophillic transsexual brain doesn't have traits which lay on a feminine spectrum but is a masculine brain that is different from the typical male brain sample. Part of this difference is an enlargement of the part of the brain responsible for self-awareness of body/being - Which may facilitate the autoeroticism part or be caused by it (enlarging that part of the brain in response to self-affixation.)

"....Conversely, gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals also show differences in the brain from non-transsexual males, but in a unique pattern different from being shifted in a female direction...."
http://m.cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/11/2525

I know how provocative/offensive it comes across - I'm not here to be politically correct. I'm seeking honesty/truth/clarity of perspective/discussion. Just because it's offensive doesn't instantly render the idea/thought to be false.

Alright, I retract my plea for softer language in an attempt to quell potential offense, you're right, truth is more important. I read through the study you posted, as well as several follow up studies, and my opinions on this are now varied. What you're suggesting, is essentially, that neurological gender identity relates, or at least is affected by (or perhaps affects) sexual orientation. Thus, neurologically, androphilic men should have more in common with androphilic women, than gynephilic men (general assumption).

A study that does coroberate that seems to be a study on transmen (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B007WHZsf9YfR0I2MTFWd0lFc2s/edit?pli=1). In this, white matter microstructures were studied and gynephilic transmen were shown to have brain structures which resembled masculine brains more so than feminine brains. This shows a link between sexual orientation and gendered brain structure. The same is shown in the study you posted, in which gynephilic transwomen were shown to share structural links to gynephilic men, over androphilic women. You stated that the subjects show no feminization in the brain, which is outright wrong, but perhaps you were just zealously selling the point. I thought I'd point that out for those who don't follow up and read the papers. In all the studies, trans people are shown to sit somewhere in between the two gendered brain structures, either leaning more toward one gender or the other, but never really completely within the other gender (for example, androphilic transwomen share more in common with androphilic women than gynephilic transwomen do, but all three have very different structures, androphilic transwomen do not have completely feminized brains, and do not sit in the same category as natal androphilic women). All of these studies are pre-hormones, so that may change things as well, but I suppose for the sake of this discussion that's irrelevant.

A problem I do have with the studies so far is the lack of diversity in the sample groups, which could really change things. For example, where is the study comparing androphilic men, androphilic women, androphilic transmen, and androphilic transwomen? And then the reverse (gynephilic men, women, transmen, and transwomen) and then the comparative study between both of those studies? What about bisexuality? Including these things would truly create a trans spectrum in which a lot more of this would become clear. There are certainly feminine androphilic men, but then there are also very masculine androphilic men - would they each have different brain structures that sit on opposite ends of the trans spectrum? And do I, as a gynephilic transwoman, have more in common neurologically with gynephilic men, or gynephilic women? I'd posture the latter, but there is no study yet which has attempted to have a look at this link. 

Regardless, ALL of this suggests fundamental differences in brain structure which would have a biological basis, or in the very least, biological and perhaps partially psychological. The study you posted showed differences in transwomen's putamens and thalamus', and since they are not susceptible to neurological processes (aka brain plasticity), this suggests innate biological basis for trans conditions. None of this suggests biological gender is fluid (which you said in your follow up you agreed with partially), simply that gender identity relates to sexual orientation and neurological structure and chemistry, which is very interesting in my opinion.

In the end, what I take from all this is none of these things are purely psychological, but have biological basis'. What makes me a female on the inside is more than culture, more than brain structure, and more than life events. I'm coming to realize it's probably a mixture of all three.

Quotethe answer is YES, it is biological ! Read below a sample of the many medical publications that document the biological basis of Gender Identity Dysphoria

Dr. Peky



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Results: 1 to 20 of 45


Select item 24617977
1.


Effects of Cross-Sex Hormone Treatment on Cortical Thickness in Transsexual Individuals.


Zubiaurre-Elorza L, Junque C, Gómez-Gil E, Guillamon A.

J Sex Med. 2014 Mar 11. doi: 10.1111/jsm.12491. [Epub ahead of print]


PMID: 24617977 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Related citations

Select item 24391851
2.


Regional grey matter structure differences between transsexuals and healthy controls--a voxel based morphometry study.


Simon L, Kozák LR, Simon V, Czobor P, Unoka Z, Szabó Á, Csukly G.

PLoS One. 2013 Dec 31;8(12):e83947. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0083947. eCollection 2013.


PMID: 24391851 [PubMed - in process] Free PMC Article

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Select item 24070909
3.


On the quest for a biomechanism of transsexualism: is there a role for BDNF?


Fuss J, Biedermann SV, Stalla GK, Auer MK.

J Psychiatr Res. 2013 Dec;47(12):2015-7. doi: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2013.08.023. Epub 2013 Sep 7.


PMID: 24070909 [PubMed - in process]

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Select item 23682909
4.


Men and women, so different, so similar: observations from cross-sex hormone treatment of transsexual subjects.


Gooren LJ, Giltay EJ.

Andrologia. 2013 May 19. doi: 10.1111/and.12111. [Epub ahead of print]


PMID: 23682909 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

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Select item 23433223
5.


Sex differences in verbal fluency during adolescence: a functional magnetic resonance imaging study in gender dysphoric and control boys and girls.


Soleman RS, Schagen SE, Veltman DJ, Kreukels BP, Cohen-Kettenis PT, Lambalk CB, Wouters F, Delemarre-van de Waal HA.

J Sex Med. 2013 Aug;10(8):1969-77. doi: 10.1111/jsm.12083. Epub 2013 Feb 22.


PMID: 23433223 [PubMed - in process]

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Select item 23019350
6.


Sex differences in the neurokinin B system in the human infundibular nucleus.


Taziaux M, Swaab DF, Bakker J.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2012 Dec;97(12):E2210-20. doi: 10.1210/jc.2012-1554. Epub 2012 Sep 27.


PMID: 23019350 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Select item 22987018
7.


Intrinsic cerebral connectivity analysis in an untreated female-to-male transsexual subject: a first attempt using resting-state fMRI.


Santarnecchi E, Vatti G, Déttore D, Rossi A.

Neuroendocrinology. 2012;96(3):188-93. doi: 10.1159/000342001. Epub 2012 Sep 14.


PMID: 22987018 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free Article

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Select item 22364652
8.


Alternating gender incongruity: a new neuropsychiatric syndrome providing insight into the dynamic plasticity of brain-sex.


Case LK, Ramachandran VS.

Med Hypotheses. 2012 May;78(5):626-31. doi: 10.1016/j.mehy.2012.01.041. Epub 2012 Feb 22.


PMID: 22364652 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Select item 22303774
9.


Am I my brain or my genitals? A nature-culture controversy in the hermaphrodite debate from the mid-1960s to the late 1990s.


Kraus C.

Gesnerus. 2011;68(1):80-106.


PMID: 22303774 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Select item 21618223
10.


Galanin neurons in the intermediate nucleus (InM) of the human hypothalamus in relation to sex, age, and gender identity.


Garcia-Falgueras A, Ligtenberg L, Kruijver FP, Swaab DF.

J Comp Neurol. 2011 Oct 15;519(15):3061-84. doi: 10.1002/cne.22666.


PMID: 21618223 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Select item 21503817
11.


Puberty suppression in a gender-dysphoric adolescent: a 22-year follow-up.


Cohen-Kettenis PT, Schagen SE, Steensma TD, de Vries AL, Delemarre-van de Waal HA.

Arch Sex Behav. 2011 Aug;40(4):843-7. doi: 10.1007/s10508-011-9758-9. Epub 2011 Apr 19.


PMID: 21503817 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

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Select item 21448752
12.


Brief report: female-to-male transsexual people and autistic traits.


Jones RM, Wheelwright S, Farrell K, Martin E, Green R, Di Ceglie D, Baron-Cohen S.

J Autism Dev Disord. 2012 Feb;42(2):301-6. doi: 10.1007/s10803-011-1227-8.


PMID: 21448752 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Select item 20219285
13.


Cortical activation during mental rotation in male-to-female and female-to-male transsexuals under hormonal treatment.


Carrillo B, Gómez-Gil E, Rametti G, Junque C, Gomez A, Karadi K, Segovia S, Guillamon A.

Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2010 Sep;35(8):1213-22. doi: 10.1016/j.psyneuen.2010.02.010. Epub 2010 Mar 12.


PMID: 20219285 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Select item 19751389
14.


Neuroimaging differences in spatial cognition between men and male-to-female transsexuals before and during hormone therapy.


Schöning S, Engelien A, Bauer C, Kugel H, Kersting A, Roestel C, Zwitserlood P, Pyka M, Dannlowski U, Lehmann W, Heindel W, Arolt V, Konrad C.

J Sex Med. 2010 May;7(5):1858-67. doi: 10.1111/j.1743-6109.2009.01484.x. Epub 2009 Sep 14.


PMID: 19751389 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Select item 19341803
15.


Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism.


Luders E, Sánchez FJ, Gaser C, Toga AW, Narr KL, Hamilton LS, Vilain E.

Neuroimage. 2009 Jul 15;46(4):904-7. doi: 10.1016/j.neuroimage.2009.03.048. Epub 2009 Mar 31.


PMID: 19341803 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

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Select item 19062760
16.


[Transsexuality: living in a wrong body?].


Jokić-Begić N, Cikes AB, Jurin T, Lucev E, Markanović D, Rucević S.

Lijec Vjesn. 2008 Sep-Oct;130(9-10):237-47. Review. Croatian.


PMID: 19062760 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Select item 18980961
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A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity.


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I don't know.  Sometimes I think I'm crazy, then I realize I'm just terribly frustrated.  Other times I feel like life experiences, the simple way things have played out in my life from the teenage years until now may have lead to it.  However, I know that for as long as I can really remember there has been this creeping dissociation between my brain and body.  Over time it seems to have gotten stronger and stronger.   
I didn't always feel this way, or, that is to say that I was too naïve to really know the realities of ->-bleeped-<-, or maybe still that I didn't know it would get this bad. 

As a little kid I was introduced to the same things any young boy would be exposed to.   I was obsessed with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Mortal Kombat, Marvel + DC, Star Wars - and a myriad of other "boys things."  I played sports.  I did pretty much anything any regular boy would do.  I guess that I sort of let the outward persona that I was creating cloud the reality of my situation. 

As I grew older, I began to realize distinct differences between men and women, not necessarily bodily, but in terms of personality and world view.  Despite my male socialization, not having known any GLBT people growing up, being totally sane (for the most part), and knowing what I am physically has not changed the simple feeling of displacement and now detachment from the world.  I don't want to be trans, and for the most part have forced myself into denying it for almost my entire life.  I can honestly say that I didn't choose to be this way. 

It could be biological I suppose; and I've always had a feeling (not that it means much) that it was.  I read recently that due to testosterone exposer while still in the womb, men will normally develop a longer ring finger than index, and vice-versa for women.  I believe it also said that transwomen normally have a female finger ratio.  I've looked at my hands and the pointer is easily longer than the index.  I've also been looking at the hands of most everybody lately and have realized that I really don't ever see a man with a longer pointer finger, at best they seem to be even.  In-fact, I haven't noticed any with noticeably longer pointer fingers.  That could be big considering brain receptors, pathways and all, also masculinize due to testosterone while in the womb...

Really, all I can truly say for sure is that when it comes right down to it... I have no clue.

Peky

Appreciate the comprehensive contribution.  Looks like I have a little reading to do!

Sincere thanks

Aisla

I don't know.  I hear so many assert that it is biological and there is data to back that up, but isn't it possible that these things "could" have a different source?  Maybe it's biological for someone, maybe not for others.  I guess I'm at a loss.  It seems hard for me to understand myself and how I came to be me.  These feelings have been with me at a young age, but could my socialization have something to do with that?  Did growing up with overly controlling people and facing a lot of the things that I was subjected to make me who I am in some way? In many ways, I think it played a major role and probably is the source of much of my self esteem issues and my general fear of other people. But then that doesn't explain if that was the origin of my gender feelings either.  I'm not sure.  Either way, I'm me.  Messed up LTL and that's okay.  All I know is these feelings have been with me for a long time and haven't gone away no matter how hard I tried to make them disappear.  It is what it is.  I just wish I could understand her sometimes and get her to control her feelings and not care so much about everyone elses to such an insane level. 

My drunkle said it was the work of the devil.   >:-)

I mean, right?  I tried to sell my soul to be a famous rock star and THIS is what I got instead?

LOL

And Who Really Creates the Problems We Have To Deal With ?????

Who Usually Creates Most of Your Problems ??

What If : Nobody noticed/cared who you had sex with (male, female,trans, or whatever) and how many you had sex with ......

And ...... Nobody cared how you dressed and what you looked like ......

What If ?? , you were raised to believe any combination of the above factors was normal ......

Would you still have a problem ??

A good question.  Problems are created and imagined by me, by others, by communities and by biology.  Now if they were not being created then there wouldn't be any problems.  I Like the thought experiment  and would like to live in this place/space.   I am actively looking for the road to take me there.  I think that I have found a way forward but have only taken the first few steps.

Aisla

Quote from: rrecroc on April 21, 2014, 01:17:19 AM
And Who Really Creates the Problems We Have To Deal With ?????

Who Usually Creates Most of Your Problems ??

What If : Nobody noticed/cared who you had sex with (male, female,trans, or whatever) and how many you had sex with ......

And ...... Nobody cared how you dressed and what you looked like ......

What If ?? , you were raised to believe any combination of the above factors was normal ......

Would you still have a problem ??

I'll try to answer this for myself.  Sexuality is irrelevant to me.  It wouldn't be easy living life as a gay man, but hell that would be much easier than being a straight transwoman.  In fact, I worry a lot more about finding love as a girl than a boy.  More roadblocks.   Right now, it's harder being a straight mtf than a gay guy, so the fact that no one would care about my sexuality doesn't change my decision or sway me to live "male"

If no one cared what I looked like or dressed, I would be so much happier.  I'm very aware of my appearance and it sucks.  That doesn't change my gender identity or who I am though.  It just mkaes me feel a little better about having less pressure.  And this is something I would feel regardless of which gender I was living as.  This is about feeling that I can be myself and be free.  However, having less social pressure would make things easy.  I mean if I could be a "boy" that lived and looked exactly like a woman, I guess that wouldn't be so bad.  I still feel that I would like to be viewed as female, but hell that kind of "male" life wouldn't be as dysphoric as my current one.  Then again, I don't really look or live like a typical guy, and that is all soon to permanently change.

Quote
Alright, I retract my plea for softer language in an attempt to quell potential offense, you're right, truth is more important. I read through the study you posted, as well as several follow up studies, and my opinions on this are now varied. What you're suggesting, is essentially, that neurological gender identity relates, or at least is affected by (or perhaps affects) sexual orientation. Thus, neurologically, androphilic men should have more in common with androphilic women, than gynephilic men (general assumption).

A study that does coroberate that seems to be a study on transmen (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B007WHZsf9YfR0I2MTFWd0lFc2s/edit?pli=1). In this, white matter microstructures were studied and gynephilic transmen were shown to have brain structures which resembled masculine brains more so than feminine brains. This shows a link between sexual orientation and gendered brain structure. The same is shown in the study you posted, in which gynephilic transwomen were shown to share structural links to gynephilic men, over androphilic women. You stated that the subjects show no feminization in the brain, which is outright wrong, but perhaps you were just zealously selling the point.

There wasn't an ideological motivation, I followed an informal theoretical pathway - gathering evidence and then forming a point of view. The caption which supersedes the link to the article is a copy and paste from an article referencing the study. I didn't feel like delving into that information when it was a dot point to tie-in the perspective put forward.

Quote
I thought I'd point that out for those who don't follow up and read the papers. In all the studies, trans people are shown to sit somewhere in between the two gendered brain structures, either leaning more toward one gender or the other,

No, the study I linked you to illustrated no feminisation but a separate neural aspect. Therefore not -all- studies proclaim androgyny. But I do agree/believe neural androgyny waivers between individuals and that neurological studies, due to the complexity of the brain - it's not possible to measure absolute everything.

Quotebut never really completely within the other gender (for example, androphilic transwomen share more in common with androphilic women than gynephilic transwomen do, but all three have very different structures, androphilic transwomen do not have completely feminized brains, and do not sit in the same category as natal androphilic women). All of these studies are pre-hormones, so that may change things as well, but I suppose for the sake of this discussion that's irrelevant.

A problem I do have with the studies so far is the lack of diversity in the sample groups, which could really change things. For example, where is the study comparing androphilic men, androphilic women, androphilic transmen, and androphilic transwomen? And then the reverse (gynephilic men, women, transmen, and transwomen) and then the comparative study between both of those studies? What about bisexuality? Including these things would truly create a trans spectrum in which a lot more of this would become clear. There are certainly feminine androphilic men, but then there are also very masculine androphilic men - would they each have different brain structures that sit on opposite ends of the trans spectrum? And do I, as a gynephilic transwoman, have more in common neurologically with gynephilic men, or gynephilic women? I'd posture the latter, but there is no study yet which has attempted to have a look at this link. 

I think it can possibly be gathered that brain areas can co-operate with independant gender persuasions interlocking into one being. But - attraction to the andro is a feminine neurological trait, perhaps it can operate in isolation of other gender-persuaded parts of the brain, but suggestions so far is that it doesn't and may even be relating to connections between certain areas and not an enlargement or decrease in matter. It must also be taken into account that many studies gathered on transgender neurology is from people on cross-hormone therapy, leading them to be obsolete. Although I believe neural androgyny exists in persuasions exist, I don't believe in the credibility of studies (being most of them) which can't be credited for with samples already undergone cross hormone therapy.

QuoteRegardless, ALL of this suggests fundamental differences in brain structure which would have a biological basis, or in the very least, biological and perhaps partially psychological. The study you posted showed differences in transwomen's putamens and thalamus', and since they are not susceptible to neurological processes (aka brain plasticity), this suggests innate biological basis for trans conditions. None of this suggests biological gender is fluid (which you said in your follow up you agreed with partially), simply that gender identity relates to sexual orientation and neurological structure and chemistry, which is very interesting in my opinion.

Gender persuasion doesn't make a straight-forward proclamation of biological neurology in gender, simply persuasions. Possibly in people, the development of the frontal lobe overcomes the decision-making and self-conceptualisation mechanisms rendering a level of thought abstraction which then experiences only mild levels of "feeling" persuasions of gender orientation into their being.

Quote
In the end, what I take from all this is none of these things are purely psychological, but have biological basis'. What makes me a female on the inside is more than culture, more than brain structure, and more than life events. I'm coming to realize it's probably a mixture of all three.

Agreed, with the addition that my point of view on the psychological basis is also partially influenced by the countless people who have undergone HRT and SRS to only proclaim they see themselves as non-binary, not because of the ineffectiveness of the surgery to assimilate themselves into the opposite gender, but to their depth of self-discovery and their enlightenment on their perspective of gender.

It also has to be countered, that if you follow what I'm writing, it doesn't follow an ideological pattern but is quite impartial.

Quote from: SilverGirl on April 17, 2014, 10:03:44 PM
i disagree that it's biological, to me it's actually much more simple, we just go with whatever pleases us, in my case i love having a feminine appearance and being referred to as the female gender, amongst other things, but i think gender is a social construct

the thing is that society created gender roles, with actions, appearance, mannerisms, etc, that are suitable for those labeled as male and female, and after someone is born they get assigned the male or female label based on whether they were born with a penis or a vagina, and that's it, the person is not allowed to choose which one they prefer (or if they prefer neither or both), and they are expected to accept it, if they don't, they get labeled as having a disorder or a mental problem for not conforming to the majority, everyone is born genderless, gender is learned

[and so on]

1. Due to being very socially awkward on top of being homeschooled, I was socially isolated for the most part (edit: I isolated myself; my parents didn't isolate me) and am still transgender, and have been since I can remember my first memories.

2. In spite of my "masculinity," I was never told I was acting inappropriately for a female, or that I didn't like the right things for a female, etc. Never, at all. I live in a very progressive area, and my personality, hobbies, interests, and attitude were all actively encouraged. My parents are not typical of their genders, so my "unusual" traits were always praised. My father was the only man in the family within several hundred miles until I was an adult. He was the only man I frequently spent time around, and I'm more stereotypically masculine than he is. On the other hand, the women I was raised around were strong, aggressive and highly independent; there was never a time in my life where I felt like I acted more "like a man" than "like a woman." I'm not transgender because of the way I act, my hobbies, my passions, etc. I'm transgender because there is a severe disconnect between my brain and my body.

3. Who on Earth would decide to be transgender when transition often means losing everything and everyone they love?

4. If you just want to be another gender, that's fine; that doesn't mean that applies to everyone else, and the things you said are nothing short of invalidating to others.

5. If the "gender roles" of men and women were completely reversed, I would still be transgender. I would just be an unusual man.

Declan/Terracotta

This is a great topic with many different interpretations being given for the same set of facts - until we find a "unified theory for gender formation and development" I suspect that each of us will accept as 'true' that paradigm with which we are most comfortable.

While I confess a need for a strictly biological explanation and at a pinch am comfortable with a combination of social, psychological and biological factors, like most folk, I would like a definitive answer. Given that scientists post Einstein have worked for decades in physics seeking their unified theory, I suspect that I will be waiting a much longer time for a definitive and widely accepted gender theory.

In the meantime I am getting closer to the point of acknowledging that gender exists, that it may be non binary and that it is fluid rather than fixed.   Taking this further means that my energies may be better focused on learning to be fully present, learning to authentically express myself  and to live the ever changing gender that is available to me, rather than seeking an answer as to why I am as I am.   In other words hrt has opened up a whole new world, I should go and explore, rather than fixate on why or how I have not received the accompanying maps and charts.

Safe travels

Aisla

I have no idea why it happens, and I'm sure it changes from person to person. I don't care why it happens or what causes it. All I know is that I'm not this way because of social conditioning, gender roles, society, etc. and it's frustrating for someone to say it is. I'm sure it is for some people, but not everyone, and that belief is the kind of belief that leads to trans-exclusionary feminism and other forms of persecution.

Quote from: Declan. on April 22, 2014, 06:23:46 PM
I have no idea why it happens, and I'm sure it changes from person to person. I don't care why it happens or what causes it. All I know is that I'm not this way because of social conditioning, gender roles, society, etc. and it's frustrating for someone to say it is. I'm sure it is for some people, but not everyone, and that belief is the kind of belief that leads to trans-exclusionary feminism and other forms of persecution.

Declan

Well said.

Aisla