Background: over the past few years, I've been going back and forth as to whether to call myself "transgender." The most precise definition of what I am/do is "gender non-conforming male," in that I wear skirts and dresses and other "feminine" clothing most of the time and have no interest in being masculine, find male-dominated spaces alien, generally prefer women's culture to men's, and identify more with women's perspective, but I don't try to pass as female (not that I would have a ghost of a chance of succeeding if I did.)
According to one definition, that makes me "transgender," in that I'm not acting according to the male role. On the other hand, I don't feel like "a woman trapped in a man's body," and, if I were actually offered the chance to exchange my body (and social role) for a (clearly) female one or stick with the one I have, I don't know which I would choose. And back in the days when I haunted a certain crossdressing site that shall remain nameless, people there would label me "transgender" so they could tell me how I was supposed to be and ignore my own experiences of myself, which didn't exactly endear the term to me. But I've visited less transgender-oriented sites, e.g., crossdressing sites, and they are simply too dudebro-ish and sexist for me. I feel no more at home there than in an NFL locker room. I feel a lot more at home in the transgender fora.
Anyway, I've been a follower of Zinnia Jones' blog, (http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones) and she recently posted an article on drag performance vs. ->-bleeped-<- (http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2014/04/the-worst-assimilation-of-all-how-modern-day-drag-hurts-trans-women-and-achieves-little-or-nothing-of-value/) which, among other things, disagrees with the notion of the "transgender umbrella". One point she makes is that drag performers are able to go back to their cis lives when the show is over and avoid most of the negative consequences of being, so to speak, a "gender outlaw" (someone else's term for it, not Zinnia's), whereas for trans people, this is who they are 24/7, and they can't avoid the discrimination and worse by just taking off their "trans disguise," so to speak.
I think she's got some excellent points and I mostly agree with her. But I don't know where that leaves people like me. On the one hand, I do wear "male drag" (as I think of it) when I go to my office (company dress code and all) and in situations where I really don't want trouble (e.g., dealing with my children's teachers) or where dressing as I normally do would distract from more important things (e.g., performances of our chorus.) On the other hand, the gender-non-conformant me is the real me, as far as I'm concerned, and it's what I express in most (non-work) areas of my life.
So I don't know if calling myself "transgender" would be an appropriation of other people's lives, or if I maybe really belong under some part of the "transgender umbrella" after all.
I'd say that you were transgender. You do have to remember that it is an umbrella term, not a very specific one. The "trapped in a woman's or man's body" thing is usually what being a transsexual is about in general terms. Some trans people try to argue out what they consider to be "weeds" under the umbrella to try and bring more "respectability" to themselves or something like that. I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you, terms and definitions seem to be constantly falling in and out of favor with various bloggers at varying times and as far as I'm concerned, bloggers don't set the rules for the rest of us, they are just throwing their opinion out there and it should be taken as such.
I think the umbrella is meant to cover anybody that is gender non-conforming. Basically if you want to be under it, you're pretty much allowed in.
Hi. Pleased to meet you.
Disclaimer: This is just my point of view.
Personally, I'm against roles being considered part of the transgender umbrella since that further confuses gender (which is biological) with roles (which has no biological basis and are purely arbitrary).
If it helps any, I've known and known of a lot of guys who wear skirts and who relate to and like women more than men.
As for you, you can identify however you want. If you want to identify as transgender, that's your prerogative. If you don't, that's fine as well although you're welcome to stick around if you like. Either way, it doesn't change who you are.
Quote from: Asche on May 02, 2014, 12:09:13 PM
On the other hand, I don't feel like "a woman trapped in a man's body," and, if I were actually offered the chance to exchange my body (and social role) for a (clearly) female one or stick with the one I have, I don't know which I would choose.
This really has nothing to do with it.
I'm as trans as they come, been living as a woman for nearly a year now and loving it, and I NEVER felt like a woman trapped in a man's body. I never felt like a woman at all. Doesn't have anything to do with being trans.
And whether you'd switch places is related to many things, only one of which is your gender wiring.
For many of us, our gender wiring is subtle. It's not obvious we're transgender.
When I started out, I was far less gender variant than you are, was happily (mostly) living as a man.
I don't know your gender or whether you're trans - that's something only you can figure out, but the indications you mentioned above don't really have much to do with it IMO.
before I found Susan's I had never really heard the term transgender. I liked that it is better at describing the transsexual experience because trans for me was never about what sexual orientation I had, but about what gender I felt like I was and it being at cross purposes with my genitals. Now I wonder if it is too broad a term. If I were to say I am a post op MtF transsexual, I think I would be accurately describing the legal definition of who I am. As I am primarily attracted to women, I would say I am a lesbian in my sexual orientation.
If I say I am transgender, I am still left with a lot of explaining to do, especially about my orientation and legal definition. That tells me transgender is so broad, in that everyone fits under the umbrella, that it doesn't define me after all. If a cis man who is always and forever a man in his heart and mind wears a dress to get sexually aroused or to earn a paycheck is the same label as me, then I want a new label. I still support them in their happiness, but it is not my happiness, and I can't identify.
Quote from: Ducks on May 02, 2014, 01:28:41 PM
before I found Susan's I had never really heard the term transgender. I liked that it is better at describing the transsexual experience because trans for me was never about what sexual orientation I had, but about what gender I felt like I was and it being at cross purposes with my genitals. Now I wonder if it is too broad a term. If I were to say I am a post op MtF transsexual, I think I would be accurately describing the legal definition of who I am. As I am primarily attracted to women, I would say I am a lesbian in my sexual orientation.
If I say I am transgender, I am still left with a lot of explaining to do, especially about my orientation and legal definition. That tells me transgender is so broad, in that everyone fits under the umbrella, that it doesn't define me after all. If a cis man who is always and forever a man in his heart and mind wears a dress to get sexually aroused or to earn a paycheck is the same label as me, then I want a new label. I still support them in their happiness, but it is not my happiness, and I can't identify.
It shouldn't be meant to really define who someone is, its just a term for a broad group of people kind of like human is. There are some pretty unsavory people under that umbrella too and if you tell someone you're human, you're still leaving out an awful lot of things, but at the end of the day, you're still human first, then transgender, then mtf, then whatever snowflake you more specifically are. Just depends on how much you feel you need to define yourself in any given circumstance.
Me, I don't explain myself nor do I really define myself to people. I allow them to perceive me as they wish for the most part unless they specifically ask and then I am very liable to go into detail about the alien-human hybrid experiments from the cold war era and secret Alaskan military installations where said research was carried out. They usually get the message, lol.
The concept of "trapped in a _______ body", is quite an out-moded concept of transgender, and probably not applicable in many (though perhaps not all cases). I would never put it in those terms for myself, and probably why I didn't know until late in life (since this is the prevailing concept).
The umbrella is VERY wide and includes potentially includes people who do not identify themselves as transgender. From what are probably "more typical" trans narratives ("I felt this way all my life") to drag (since some drag performers do actually feel some degree of being unaligned with the gender they were born into and others do not).
--Jay
Quote from: Asche on May 02, 2014, 12:09:13 PM
On the one hand, I do wear "male drag" (as I think of it) when I go to my office (company dress code and all) and in situations where I really don't want trouble (e.g., dealing with my children's teachers) or where dressing as I normally do would distract from more important things (e.g., performances of our chorus.) On the other hand, the gender-non-conformant me is the real me, as far as I'm concerned, and it's what I express in most (non-work) areas of my life.
I pretty much agree with Jen. If you identify as trans then welcome to the party. It doesn't much matter to me if you are full time, part time, cross dressing or just gender queer. If you think you are, and you are willing to be thought of as one of us, then you are.
Asche,
That you feel comfortable morphing into guy mode when you think it is appropriate or helpful is an adaptation to life as you experience it. I am a woman, dress like one, act as such, but if I put on my old levis and a work shirt to clean a shed, or fix a roof, that does not negate who I am. I am transsexual, transgender, and gender queer in the same package. I am who I am, and that is enough. I find comfort in this community, but not so much with any attempt to balkanize my experience into narrow definitions. Just my thoughts,
Julie
Quote from: aleon515 on May 02, 2014, 02:02:03 PM
The concept of "trapped in a _______ body", is quite an out-moded concept of transgender, and probably not applicable in many (though perhaps not all cases). I would never put it in those terms for myself, and probably why I didn't know until late in life (since this is the prevailing concept).
The umbrella is VERY wide and includes potentially includes people who do not identify themselves as transgender. From what are probably "more typical" trans narratives ("I felt this way all my life") to drag (since some drag performers do actually feel some degree of being unaligned with the gender they were born into and others do not).
--Jay
Jay, the descriptive of being trapped in the wrong body is only a way to explain the situation in a way that others can grok, it is the best one-sentence description of what I've been going through since birth, that am aware of. It describes a specific situation and gives people with no inkling of gender disphoria a way to get you. How else can you come out and get help if you can't explain yourself? Who's mom is going to get the problem when you say you're a transgender woman if trans woman can describe anything from Jared Leto or crying game star to drag queens to male prostitutes to Christine Jorgenson (or just about anything else). I find it hard to feel understood when using a term that doesn't have any specific meaning to describe myself. I thought trans woman did that when I first heard it but now I know it doesn't even scratch the surface.
Quote from: defective snowflake on May 02, 2014, 01:40:42 PM
It shouldn't be meant to really define who someone is, its just a term for a broad group of people kind of like human is. There are some pretty unsavory people under that umbrella too and if you tell someone you're human, you're still leaving out an awful lot of things, but at the end of the day, you're still human first, then transgender, then mtf, then whatever snowflake you more specifically are. Just depends on how much you feel you need to define yourself in any given circumstance.
Me, I don't explain myself nor do I really define myself to people. I allow them to perceive me as they wish for the most part unless they specifically ask and then I am very liable to go into detail about the alien-human hybrid experiments from the cold war era and secret Alaskan military installations where said research was carried out. They usually get the message, lol.
I agree, I think it's being used to describe our 'community' when it is still only a small bit better than animal, vegetable or mineral. The problem I have is that it is also used to describe MtF or FtM in many medical papers I've read about gender re-assignment. It is being taught to our journalists that you say trans woman or trans man not transsexual or MtF.
I think that's a problem for those who need to be able to really go all the way across to the physical world. For those who plan to have surgery, there has to be a legal way to get there including laws that protect us. Putting surgical women in the same legal boat as cross dresser males means we'll never have a chance of being included in our target gender legally.
Legal descriptions will always be necessary at some level, if you need a passport that matches your genitals post op, you need to be able to avoid saying you're from outer space, that just introduces immigration problems you probably don't need ;)
Quote from: JulieBlair on May 02, 2014, 02:10:17 PM
I pretty much agree with Jen. If you identify as trans then welcome to the party. It doesn't much matter to me if you are full time, part time, cross dressing or just gender queer. If you think you are, and you are willing to be thought of as one of us, then you are.
Julie
Julie, that's great for bars and dinner parties, but what about for real (government, medical, societal) recognition? Maybe some time in the future we can all just be whatever strikes our fancy and it won't matter, but in a world where you can still be killed of fired or put out of your house for being LGBT, it seems a bit far from that day.
To be honest, it seems like trans* is diluting the issue of gender disphoria so far it won't make any sense to anyone. If we open the women's restrooms to anyone who feels like a girl sometimes, it would be a bit scary - who's checking your inner thoughts to make sure you aren't just trying to avoid the line in the men's room? If we go that far, we may as well make all bathrooms unisex and leave women to fend for themselves.
We need something meaningful to get the laws passed that we need to get passed, and my flippant little bathroom reference will become the sound bite on the senate floor. It's a tough dichotomy to resolve, because all of us who are in or past transition had to go into the women's bathroom at some point when we were anatomically still male. That has to be protected because we're really not safe in the men's bathroom. (in general, I think the opposite is not true, this is really 99.9% a woman's issue. I think an anatomical woman who presents male would be welcome in either bathroom though probably not safe in a men's room, but post op FtM would not be understood if they were in the women's room, though they probably would be safe.)
Hi Asche,
After talking to a lot of people, I've noticed two distinctions:
1) Those that confess feelings of identifying with another gender. They can express this in a wide variety of ways; all the way from simple gender-bending clothing, all the way to full-on transition. The driving force however is that feeling of identity.
2) Those that adopt the look of the other gender (for whatever reason) but readily admit they don't identify with it. This surprised me at first, but I've heard a number of cross-dressers tell me "when these clothes come off, I'm all guy, I like being a guy, and I wouldn't want to be a woman". I have heard these people eschew the 'trans' label.
So my own personal meaning of trans* became less to do with outward presentation, or medical procedures, and more to do with how you feel inside. That is, those people that FEEL like their original gender is not accurate, wholly or in part, are to me, transgendered. By that definition, that is a fairly large umbrella.
***
As for Zinna's blog: to me, the "highly visible vs. blending" discussion doesn't seem to be a Trans issue as much as a question of personal tastes / freedom of choice. Cis gendered women have a very similar ongoing battle about appearances and career choices, and mercilessly skewer one another, taking turns calling each other "slutty" or "plain".
In my mind, rather than deciding who is the "correct and true" trans, it's more productive to support one another's ability to choose how we want to live (something feminists have been saying about in-fighting among women).
In this day and age, would a feminist say "don't wear that outfit, it reinforces sterotypes about women?". No, they'd say "if people assume things about us because of the outfit you wear, they're the ones with the problem". I see a direct parallel to what Zinna's writing about.
/kumbaya
Yeah I mean, I'm not saying my feelings about the umbrella (I know better than to touch that can of worms) just how I understand it to be used most of the time. It's kind of loosely defined and all-encompassing, depending on who you talk to.
Quote from: Ducks on May 02, 2014, 03:31:56 PM
The problem I have is that it is also used to describe MtF or FtM in many medical papers I've read about gender re-assignment. It is being taught to our journalists that you say trans woman or trans man not transsexual or MtF.
Hi Ducks,
If you're arguing that the term is imprecise, I would actually agree with you. However, the genie seems to be out of the bottle.
A term was needed for this community of people who are non-gender conforming, and trans evolved into it. I suppose if someone came up with a better one, 'trans' could be reclaimed to be a more specific, medical definition. Or alternatively, the meaning you are talking about could be given a new term.
Quote from: Ducks on May 02, 2014, 03:21:32 PM
Jay, the descriptive of being trapped in the wrong body is only a way to explain the situation in a way that others can grok, it is the best one-sentence description of what I've been going through since birth, that am aware of. It describes a specific situation and gives people with no inkling of gender disphoria a way to get you. How else can you come out and get help if you can't explain yourself? Who's mom is going to get the problem when you say you're a transgender woman if trans woman can describe anything from Jared Leto or crying game star to drag queens to male prostitutes to Christine Jorgenson (or just about anything else). I find it hard to feel understood when using a term that doesn't have any specific meaning to describe myself. I thought trans woman did that when I first heard it but now I know it doesn't even scratch the surface.
Yeah, I agree it is a telegraph that might actually be helpful to some people as an explanation. But kind of a two edge sword, since if you don't (and I didn't) identify with that particular idea, it could make it harder to figure out that you are actually transgender.
--Jay
Quote from: JesseG on May 02, 2014, 04:15:28 PM
Hi Ducks,
If you're arguing that the term is imprecise, I would actually agree with you. However, the genie seems to be out of the bottle.
A term was needed for this community of people who are non-gender conforming, and trans evolved into it. I suppose if someone came up with a better one, 'trans' could be reclaimed to be a more specific, medical definition. Or alternatively, the meaning you are talking about could be given a new term.
It is a process and I realize not everyone fits into a neat category for life, that is what makes it so hard to lump even transsexuals together let alone all gender variances. I personally think those who end up having surgery should be considered covered by the same law for cis people of their gender. The commitment to surgery should be considered sufficient to be completely included. For those on the path to surgery, it gets more complicated because society needs to provide a safe runway to get up to speed for takeoff. Perhaps WPATH standards of care can be adapted to provide a legal way to transition without being at risk of being tossed in a men's prison for using the woman's bathroom. It is a harder problem than I anticipated when I jumped into the discussion.
I'm fine if transgender means all people of gender non-conformity, another term that seems more reflective of the discussion would be PanGender since it includes all genders including intersex and cis and trans. IMHO, there is nothing 'trans' about people happy in their gender but who want to wear a skirt or have a butch haircut. It just seems confused in the media and the community.
Anyway, I am totally not a cis-a-phile who thinks the only way to be trans is to pass as a birth woman/man in every way possible. I just want to see our little brothers and sisters get that better life that I didn't have growing up.
Quote from: aleon515 on May 02, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
Yeah, I agree it is a telegraph that might actually be helpful to some people as an explanation. But kind of a two edge sword, since if you don't (and I didn't) identify with that particular idea, it could make it harder to figure out that you are actually transgender.
--Jay
You kind of come to the point I was trying to make, how do you know you're transgender since anyone can be transgender? How could transgender apply to you if my ilk got it defined to mean people who refused to accept their body was the right gender and felt trapped in it? That is the hard part of having an umbrella that covers everything, I mean how do you know you weren't just gay? I thought for the longest time I was just the gayest thing ever, so gay I wanted to change into a woman and have sex with men... until I said that to a gay man who told me I was the least gay thing ever. ->-bleeped-<-! :)
Quote from: Jen on May 02, 2014, 03:50:51 PM
Yeah I mean, I'm not saying my feelings about the umbrella (I know better than to touch that can of worms) just how I understand it to be used most of the time. It's kind of loosely defined and all-encompassing, depending on who you talk to.
I wish I'd read this earlier :)
Quote from: Ducks on May 02, 2014, 06:38:42 PM
You kind of come to the point I was trying to make, how do you know you're transgender since anyone can be transgender?
I'm not sure I agree with the statement "anyone can be transgender." It's true but misleading. Yes, anyone could be (if the circumstances before their birth brought it about), but not everyone is, right?
Some people's gender identities match their body sex. (Actually, most people).
Those people are not trans.
Other people's gender identities don't match their body sex.
Those people are trans.
As for how you know, you're transgender, for many of us, that's a delicate journey. Some of us have to try out a presentation before we know it's for us. That's what happened to me.
Other people, for whatever reason, know very early, sometimes even before they can talk.
Quote from: suzifrommd on May 02, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
I'm not sure I agree with the statement "anyone can be transgender." It's true but misleading. Yes, anyone could be (if the circumstances before their birth brought it about), but not everyone is, right? Good point, by anyone I meant anyone who felt gender non-conforming, including those who never felt they had gender disphoria or the feeling of being a different gender than their natal gender.
Some people's gender identities match their body sex. (Actually, most people).
Those people are not trans. That I would agree with, but others have said that belief is too narrow
Other people's gender identities don't match their body sex.
Those people are trans.
As for how you know, you're transgender, for many of us, that's a delicate journey. Some of us have to try out a presentation before we know it's for us. That's what happened to me. I am glad you found yourself, having known from my earliest memories, I don't quite get the try first aspect of this, but that is my ignorance not an indictment of your experience. Sorry if it comes off as rude.
Other people, for whatever reason, know very early, sometimes even before they can talk.
Thanks Suzi, I tried to address your points in line
I've been living in a safe bubble away from all the action in the transgender world. I think I might be out of my element but I am anxious to understand and to be understood by the folks here.
Quote from: Edge on May 02, 2014, 12:23:52 PM
Hi. Pleased to meet you.
Disclaimer: This is just my point of view.
Personally, I'm against roles being considered part of the transgender umbrella since that further confuses gender (which is biological) with roles (which has no biological basis and are purely arbitrary).
If it helps any, I've known and known of a lot of guys who wear skirts and who relate to and like women more than men.
As for you, you can identify however you want. If you want to identify as transgender, that's your prerogative. If you don't, that's fine as well although you're welcome to stick around if you like. Either way, it doesn't change who you are.
This topic piqued my interest and I wanted to reply after reading all previous replies but I wanted to address this immediately since I don't believe anyone has yet and it is a dangerous misusage of terminology; Gender is not biological, sex is. Gender = brain, sex = reproductive organs. Plain and simple. Whether or not gender has to do with some physical part of the brain is yet to be determined as we haven't done enough research on that yet, but claiming that gender is "biological" further propagates cissexist ideas about gender.
Now, as to where that leaves gender and what gender actually is... that's a question I've been asking myself for a very long time, and we could probably talk back and forth about it all day.
Actually, scientific research has already determined that brains, alongside being biological organs, are sexually dimorphic. While I agree more research is always good, current studies are pretty clear that gender is, in fact, biological. I do not see how saying that gender is biological (which, again, is backed up by science) is in any way cissexist. Especially since denying that gender is real is usually the tool of transphobic bigots.
Transgender is mainly a politically expedient umbrella term that is used to push a common set of legal and social needs among a somewhat diverse collection of individuals. In some places it is slowly being superseded by the term "trans" or "trans*," due to the history and usage of the term "transgender." "Trans woman" or "transgender woman" and "trans man" or "transgender man" are generally the terms specifically used for transitioners, regardless of surgical status.
I also find it kind of strange that so many Americans seem to declare with absolute certainty that the broad-based approach is ineffective. Canada is a number of steps past the US in terms of our recognition of gender identity and gender expression as protected categories, our funding of surgical treatment, and our social acceptance. And the broad-based approach unquestionably won out here. As long as you recognize that different people under the umbrella have different needs and respect them (and honestly, any group of 10 humans and you are going to have different needs), it is possible to make progress as a whole.
Free surgery in Ontario certainly doesn't help non-ops any more than the right to change IDs without surgery helps post-ops. But it's hardly an accident that both things exist in the same place, along with legal protections for all trans people, regardless of variety. The same rights that label an attack on a crossdresser because they are a crossdresser a hate crime, enables a pre-op trans woman to use the correct bathroom. The same society that enables HRT for non-binary trans people, makes it safe to walk down the street as a visibly trans individual. These are hardly disconnected issues.
Considering it's raining cis cats and dogs out there I'm glad to have any umbrella to stand under...
Quote from: Edge on May 02, 2014, 08:07:18 PM
Actually, scientific research has already determined that brains, alongside being biological organs, are sexually dimorphic.
Actually, the scientific community has determined no such thing. There have been a few sensationalized studies purporting to show differences, which get eagerly snapped up and further sensationalized by the popular press because they confirm popular prejudices, but there are problems with all of them. And plenty of studies which find no significant differences, especially once you adjust for things like body size. More generally, even with conditions which seem to pretty clearly be due to neurological differences, such as autism or mental retardation, no one has been able to identify visible differences in brain structure which can be ascribed to the condition. (Things like trauma or diseases such as Alzheimers are a different story.)
Quote from: Asche on May 02, 2014, 08:38:32 PM
no one has been able to identify visible differences in brain structure which can be ascribed to the condition.
So you are discounting the nerve output mappings which clearly show some cis males active brain portions showing female response is science fiction or "Spin"? ???
Quote from: Edge on May 02, 2014, 08:07:18 PM
Actually, scientific research has already determined that brains, alongside being biological organs, are sexually dimorphic. While I agree more research is always good, current studies are pretty clear that gender is, in fact, biological. I do not see how saying that gender is biological (which, again, is backed up by science) is in any way cissexist. Especially since denying that gender is real is usually the tool of transphobic bigots.
I see your point very clearly, and to an extent, I agree with you. But the problem is that when discussing "biology" to most cisgender individuals (especially those who have little knowledge of trans* issues) their thoughts do not automatically go to the brain; they go to the genitals. There is no denying that the likelihood that gender has a biological (or, more specifically, neurological) basis is very high (Although Asche does make a good point as well). But, as I said, the average individual tends to not think of the brain as "biological" but rather "psychological", even though the brain is definitely biological and psychology is in many, many ways married closely to biology. (Side note: This is where most mental stigma comes from, so I am not saying in any way that the separation of thought and biology is a good mindset to have, only that it exists to a very large extent. On the contrary, as a student of psychology I am appalled by the sheer amount of people who do not seem to understand that our thoughts are not separate from our very
physical brains.) What I'm trying to say is, when people push gender as "biological", no matter their intentions, the majority of the population uses this to claim that you must have a vagina to be a woman or a penis to be a man (intersex? what's that?). Giving people a chart of the human body to point to and saying "This [points to brain] is gender, This [points to crotch] is sex" is the most understandable and simple explanation, but when you do so, people will not think of both as biologically based, even though they know consciously that the brain is an organ that is part of the body; They will take away from that "gender is mental, sex is biological", rather than the truth of "both are to an extent biological, but gender refers to the brain and sex refers to the genitals". In general, it is best to distinguish the two concepts because they are not the same and can lead to some consequences, awkward at best and dangerous at worst, and the gender = mind, sex = body distinction seems to be the most quick and painless way to explain it to someone when they are first starting to try to understand. (This includes abolishing the term "sex differences" when referring to medical discoveries regarding differences among genders in the brain.)
on another note, I finally caught up and would like to add my thoughts to the topic at large in a bit.
Yeah I get what you are saying, ethereal-ineffability. I've met far too many people myself who somehow don't realize that brains are physical. Although, as far as I'm concerned, one is too many people. However, I don't see why that makes what I said any less true. People being ignorant does not make brains any less physical. Denying that they are encourages people to continue being ignorant and that's something I am whole heartedly against. That is what is dangerous. Not educating people.
I want to point out that I make it very clear when I talk about gender being physical that I am talking about brain structures. Here is it a bit different since I assume people have an idea of what I'm talking about (although clearly I was wrong), but I get into much more detail when discussing it with cis people. So far, I have not met anyone who assumed I was talking about genitals.
Personally, I think the gender=mind and body=sex explanation, while quick, does more harm than it helps. I wish people would get on board with actually teaching people and learning about how the body is much more complicated.
Quote from: Edge on May 02, 2014, 09:22:29 PM
Yeah I get what you are saying, ethereal-ineffability. I've met far too many people myself who somehow don't realize that brains are physical. Although, as far as I'm concerned, one is too many people. However, I don't see why that makes what I said any less true. People being ignorant does not make brains any less physical. Denying that they are encourages people to continue being ignorant and that's something I am whole heartedly against. That is what is dangerous. Not educating people.
I want to point out that I make it very clear when I talk about gender being physical that I am talking about brain structures. Here is it a bit different since I assume people have an idea of what I'm talking about (although clearly I was wrong), but I get into much more detail when discussing it with cis people. So far, I have not met anyone who assumed I was talking about genitals.
Personally, I think the gender=mind and body=sex explanation, while quick, does more harm than it helps. I wish people would get on board with actually teaching people and learning about how the body is much more complicated.
This is very true, and I am completely for educating people beyond elementary concepts. One other thing to consider though is the fact that, since it is not commonly accepted that there may be differences in the brain regarding gender, sources would probably be needed and you can't exactly carry around a list of sources for every important issue on a day to day basis (well... unless we are counting google on a smartphone). It's about heuristics, which can be harmful if they are your sole method of understanding of an issue, but spread a basic understanding quickly which opens the door for further discussion. In short, I am for the explanation that you are describing as there is likely a lot of truth to it, but I do not find it practical in a time where we are trying to get people to understand that it is DEFINITELY a thing to be transgender, not to even mention the details of how that might be so... appealing to the general thought process of the mind as purely psychological rather than biological seems like a quicker track to this, and by the time everyone catches on to the basics I am hoping that we will have more solid evidence of the extent to which biology influences gender (and the evidence we already have is no longer used in the sexist way it has been used in the past, ie to "prove" certain things about all men and all women). This does not mean stop explaining it that way, by all means do your thing, just maybe try to refer to the brain rather than "biology" to limit confusion and the spread of the "gender = biology" idea in its cissexist form? Since this is actually a good idea in theory I will try to do so as well, but I am less confident making such claims without a myriad of reputable sources on hand, especially since the people in my life do not really take me seriously.
Quote from: Edge on May 02, 2014, 08:07:18 PM
Actually, scientific research has already determined that brains, alongside being biological organs, are sexually dimorphic. While I agree more research is always good, current studies are pretty clear that gender is, in fact, biological. I do not see how saying that gender is biological (which, again, is backed up by science) is in any way cissexist. Especially since denying that gender is real is usually the tool of transphobic bigots.
Have they even *looked* at brains of people who identify somewhere outside the gender binary? I don't think the research is at a very high level of development. I think gender may have some biological basis, but we don't actually know what that is.
--Jay
Quote from: Ducks on May 02, 2014, 06:38:42 PM
You kind of come to the point I was trying to make, how do you know you're transgender since anyone can be transgender? How could transgender apply to you if my ilk got it defined to mean people who refused to accept their body was the right gender and felt trapped in it? That is the hard part of having an umbrella that covers everything, I mean how do you know you weren't just gay? I thought for the longest time I was just the gayest thing ever, so gay I wanted to change into a woman and have sex with men... until I said that to a gay man who told me I was the least gay thing ever. ->-bleeped-<-! :)
Because "gay" (or perhaps you mean lesbian, as I am FAAB) is who you are attracted to. I don't (since transition actually know who I am attracted to, but that doesn't define my experience in any way (except for that). And no, it's not just a lifestyle or presentation. But I don't consider myself entirely in the gender binary, so I would just switch my label to "male" and that's that. Your gender identity is who you feel yourself to be.
The "umbrella" isn't actually meant to "define" you. YOu do that yourself. You can use whichever word or phrases helps you (if a word or phrase helps). If transsexual (sounds like that's the one which might work-- someone who word switch from one "side" to another-- and I think the "wrong body" actually might work for you. But for me, not so much. I said elsewhere, I do feel 100% male, it's more 30-35% (don't think an exact percentage works, but I think it shows the concept anyway). So I would use another word or phrase of my choice, as being outside the binary is more of something that it a bit newer concept to a lot of people.
All transsexuals are transgender but not all people under the umbrella of transgender are transsexual. You don't need to identify with the word if you don't want to, but if you want services from an agency, you might stay a bit open minded about it. :) I like words so I like to figure out what I word I might use, but really you don't have to chose a word if you don't want to. The concept of transgender means you are, in some way or other, crossing or trespassing the rules about which gender you are supposed to be in some way or other.
I think this video explains the difference between sex (assigned at birth), gender identity, gender presentation, and sexual orientation very well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRcPXtqdKjE
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on May 02, 2014, 10:53:31 PM
Have they even *looked* at brains of people who identify somewhere outside the gender binary? I don't think the research is at a very high level of development. I think gender may have some biological basis, but we don't actually know what that is.
--Jay
Not humans brains yet (that I know of).
Quote from: ethereal-ineffability on May 02, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
not to even mention the details of how that might be so
Why would one not mention the details of how that might be so while talking to a cisgender person with no previous knowledge? That would be ridiculous.
Quote from: ethereal-ineffability on May 02, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
(and the evidence we already have is no longer used in the sexist way it has been used in the past, ie to "prove" certain things about all men and all women).
Of course, this is important to point out too since the difference between gender and stereotypes is important.
Quote from: ethereal-ineffability on May 02, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
This does not mean stop explaining it that way, by all means do your thing, just maybe try to refer to the brain rather than "biology" to limit confusion and the spread of the "gender = biology" idea in its cissexist form?
No. I will continue to tell people that brains are biological organs and continue to explain that gender is biological. I will not encourage the spread of misinformation especially since I think it is harmful.
I still do not see anything cisexist about telling people the truth: that human brains are sexually dimorphic, that brains are biological organs, and that gender is a biological reality. Quite the opposite. Claims that gender is not real are the basis of much of the transphobic discrimination we face.
Quote from: Sarah7 on May 02, 2014, 08:12:36 PM
Transgender is mainly a politically expedient umbrella term that is used to push a common set of legal and social needs among a somewhat diverse collection of individuals. In some places it is slowly being superseded by the term "trans" or "trans*," due to the history and usage of the term "transgender." "Trans woman" or "transgender woman" and "trans man" or "transgender man" are generally the terms specifically used for transitioners, regardless of surgical status.
I also find it kind of strange that so many Americans seem to declare with absolute certainty that the broad-based approach is ineffective. Canada is a number of steps past the US in terms of our recognition of gender identity and gender expression as protected categories, our funding of surgical treatment, and our social acceptance. And the broad-based approach unquestionably won out here. As long as you recognize that different people under the umbrella have different needs and respect them (and honestly, any group of 10 humans and you are going to have different needs), it is possible to make progress as a whole.
Free surgery in Ontario certainly doesn't help non-ops any more than the right to change IDs without surgery helps post-ops. But it's hardly an accident that both things exist in the same place, along with legal protections for all trans people, regardless of variety. The same rights that label an attack on a crossdresser because they are a crossdresser a hate crime, enables a pre-op trans woman to use the correct bathroom. The same society that enables HRT for non-binary trans people, makes it safe to walk down the street as a visibly trans individual. These are hardly disconnected issues.
This sums it all up very well. I have issues with the umbrella, but it is hard to deny it's actual efficacy in affecting positive change for everybody underneath it, even in the states, where this kind of activism has added so many trans issues to the evaluating criteria for HRC corporate equality index, for instance, including surgery coverage. I mean, that is huge, because it has actually prompted many companies to make changes, and cover many of the medical needs of transitioners. But still, there are issues with pouring a diverse set of types in a big bucket, whether they like it or not, swirling them all together and presenting them to the world as if they were a single entity, when in fact they are anything but. Lot of issues. But then again, how do you argue with results? With things happening that could actually change your life for the better?
It has created a situation where both sides have very strong arguments, which is a recipe for derision and divisiveness. and very strong feelings on either side. And that is what we have now.
Since it all is so very unclear to me what's right, or more accurate, it is all very clear that neither side is right or wrong, I for one firmly resolve to sit here and do absolutely nothing lol. I will just wait and see what happens and hope for the best outcome, and I don't even know what that is. Less fighting between us would be grand. I'll root for that.
This leads to the question as to how someone can be be a drag queen and fully identify as a guy?
Also the question of how one can become a drag queen? (Just kidding...maybe...)
Edge, we are probably just going to need to agree to disagree then. Even if we're coming from the same place it's not likely that we're going to come to the same conclusion, and I'm sure that either way we're both spreading awareness so that's something.
But anyway, I have a lot of feelings on this topic, and I put off responding until now because I wanted to find a comment I put on another article that addressed something similar to this that I felt summed up my feelings decently.
"The mention of "[GenderF]" [not sure if this term in its uncensored form breaks forum rules] made me smile, as I often used that term to describe myself in my private blog out of frustration when I was starting to come to terms with my identity confusion. And while I tell people that I am non-binary for politeness and formality's sake (even though that label doesn't quite ring true for me), nothing has fit how I feel about my gender (in terms of society's concept of gender and gender roles in general) quite as perfectly as [GenderF] does. My own gender identity still causes a lot of negative emotions mostly towards myself and partly towards people who laid the foundations for me to have to make a big deal out of this in my head in the first place.
That being said, I'm uncomfortable identifying as "trans" or "trans*", because it makes me feel extremely guilty. ... Part of the reason I stayed closeted for so long was because most people see others who identify outside either cisgender or FtM/MtF to just be people grabbing for attention and trying to "fit in with the cool trans kids" or whatever, and even though I know that's a load of bull, I feel bad identifying as trans* because I don't want to prove them right. I want to convey to everyone that I know my place so that I can be myself in peace. Even if that means avoiding talking about some things I really relate to because, according to the majority of the LGBT community, I can't relate to any of it."
My views of my own gender are extremely complicated and still a work in progress; Labels don't fit, pronouns don't sound right, nothing falls where I want it to. Even I couldn't tell you with 100% certainty where I fall yet. But because of the sheer amount of people debating this very topic, I refuse to identify outwardly as trans*, because even as an outsider this community is important to me since I have so many loved ones who are transitioning, and I feel I can't represent everyone in it properly and trying to do so would be selfish of me.
This usually means that the only people I am comfortable talking with about personal gender-related issues are NB folk who are very, very relaxed about it... which presents several problems to me. Namely, the ones who say "oh yeah, he, she, they, whatever... I don't care. Call me whatever you want! They're just words." And, being that they're the only support group I feel mostly comfortable discussing things with due to the fact that I know I definitely won't be judged or evaluated on my responses, I still feel the need to say "oh haha, me too" or something along those lines, because that is the proper and accepted response. Even if that's not how I feel at all. To me, gender isn't just a game or a piece of clothing I put on and off or what other people think the color of my eyes is at a distance. It's a source of pain. Nothing is ever right, even if I bind it's not good enough because my face is too feminine and I could never pass on the street in my wildest dreams. My reflection stares back at me and all I see is "wrong" all over my body and I don't know how to fix it because the second I think that one thing might help my mindset changes and then it's wrong for a different reason and I can never make permanent decisions because of this, because then I'll only be faced with the opposite problem. And I know other people see the wrongness that I see as well, I know because even though I have already came out to every single one of my friends and told them that they can refer to me as whatever they want to and I would REALLY REALLY PREFER THAT THEY MIX IT UP MAYBE OR TRY SOMETHING OTHER THAN SHE EVERY ONCE IN A BLUE MOON HINT HINT (because if you are not transsexual and you want to be referred to with pronouns aside from that of your birth gender then obviously you are an ->-bleeped-<- and everyone talks about you behind your back, I've witnessed this with a number of my non binary friends already and it kinda scares me how quickly the community turns on them when they aren't looking) and their default, and only thing they EVER refer to me as, is "she". Even when I make an honest attempt to present as masculine as I possibly can. "She". "Her". "Herself". "Hers". She she she she SHE SHE SHE. It hurts, it honestly does. It isn't just a word to me, like so many of my NB friends claim it is. To me, it's a constant reminder of how people see me, how they ALWAYS see me, and how I'm afraid they WILL always see me. The expectations that come along with it, the assumptions, the judgement; it hurts. I can't always just brush it off, I'm not that strong. Not when gender is in literally everything we experience and talk about as human beings in one way or another. The more I think about it, the more it hurts, and the more I hate it. The only two people who've actually made any change at all are the lovely cuties that I am dating who have taken to using "they" as a default with me, and just the fact that they both recognize my internal struggle and are trying to help even when they don't have to means so much to me. I daydream (and sometimes actually dream, if I do dream) constantly about getting sir'd or something along those lines; I don't think I ever have in my entire life, and it's probably not going to happen, so I've forced myself to accept that they're only daydreams. I've only ever been asked if I was a guy or what pronouns I go by with someone I don't know once or twice before, while in cosplay (I cosplay as male characters since it's more socially acceptable to be masculine as someone else than to present masculine as yourself), and I swear to god I nearly cried the one time I remember for sure and probably the other time as well. I remember when I was very young every time heaven was brought up in church I would wish as hard as I could that it would be genderless. No streets of gold, no endless feasts, none of that; All I ever wanted was just a place where I didn't have to think about this, where society would literally not care at all about what I wanted to do or say that would otherwise have gendered implications, where I didn't have to be shoved into a box and was completely free of a concept that I hated with a fiery burning passion even as a small child. I realize that this probably wouldn't solve all of my problems, namely how I see myself, but it would be a start. It would help. It would be nice.
The other day, I got into a conversation with someone because they had posted to facebook "sorry but if your preferred pronoun is some made up word i don't know if i can talk to you". Turns out they were actually referring to otherkin pronouns rather than gender pronouns, but a gender-related discussion broke out in the comments and I felt the need to stop by and add, "hhhhhh I don't want to make anybody mad but this is kind of the reason why I don't ever even attempt to present more neutrally or explore neutral pronouns even though I feel much more comfortable heading in that direction because I never know how much of what I want to try is what people think is okay and not okay and especially people I look up to or are close to because I don't want anyone to hate me. I'm sorry I'm not saying your opinion is bad and you can't have it or anything I can clearly tell you're upset and I know what it's like to be told you can't say anything I just kind of felt like mentioning that thing I am very sorry". They then proceeded to message me and explain what they meant, and any time I would start to explain my feelings on the matter (which are technically a moot point since I can't even decide on anything anyway), they would basically reply with "that's fine so long as you're not one of those people that DEMANDS that people use other pronouns for you". And I just remember thinking... that doesn't help at all? You literally just stated why I will never ask for things that might make me feel better about myself. Why I don't feel like I CAN, like I am allowed to. Because it's annoying and burdensome to other people. They said that if people like me wanted a gender neutral pronoun we should "just pick one", as if we as a group are cohesive enough to decide on one that everyone likes and then POWERFUL enough in our small numbers to make the rest of the population accept that into common everyday language within the course of one lifetime, just like that. Just because we want it. And here's the kicker. When I started talking about how I felt, they said something along the lines of "yeah I kind of feel that way too, like a while ago I thought I was neutral or androgynous or something? I don't care if people call me "he" or "she", like they're just words and don't mean anything to me really." And I thought, Oh? That's so nice for you. I wish I could feel that way. Because I actually DO care; I want people to see me as male but they only ever see me as female, and so, no, "he" and "she" are NOT just words. But I didn't say it, because after they forced themself on my level without actually understanding me they were too quick to use that against me and tell me how I should behave and feel, because that's how they would behave and feel.
I don't want to identify with that. I don't want people like that feeling like they know how I feel, how I'm actually supposed to be completely chill about gender when the reality is that it's caused more breakdowns and panic attacks than anything else in my life. And they were a bad example, because most of my NB friends are open to anything and never try to dictate someone's actions, but the concept still applies. So I'm faced with a choice: continue to seek support with people who do not understand but accept me, or attempt to seek support with people who may understand but may not accept me. I can't bring myself to pick the second. I cannot, in good conscience, identify as trans*, even though I probably fit under a couple definitions and it might make my life just the slightest bit easier.
Does the umbrella actually include individuals like me? Don't know, would be lying if I said I didn't care. But until the answer is a resounding "yes", I don't feel right doing so. I don't feel like I am allowed to do so.
I word-vomited a bit... I'm sorry. I just never really felt like I could talk about this.
Quote from: aleon515 on May 02, 2014, 11:06:41 PM
Because "gay" (or perhaps you mean lesbian, as I am FAAB) is who you are attracted to. I don't (since transition actually know who I am attracted to, but that doesn't define my experience in any way (except for that). And no, it's not just a lifestyle or presentation. But I don't consider myself entirely in the gender binary, so I would just switch my label to "male" and that's that. Your gender identity is who you feel yourself to be.
The "umbrella" isn't actually meant to "define" you. YOu do that yourself. You can use whichever word or phrases helps you (if a word or phrase helps). If transsexual (sounds like that's the one which might work-- someone who word switch from one "side" to another-- and I think the "wrong body" actually might work for you. But for me, not so much. I said elsewhere, I do feel 100% male, it's more 30-35% (don't think an exact percentage works, but I think it shows the concept anyway). So I would use another word or phrase of my choice, as being outside the binary is more of something that it a bit newer concept to a lot of people.
All transsexuals are transgender but not all people under the umbrella of transgender are transsexual. You don't need to identify with the word if you don't want to, but if you want services from an agency, you might stay a bit open minded about it. :) I like words so I like to figure out what I word I might use, but really you don't have to chose a word if you don't want to. The concept of transgender means you are, in some way or other, crossing or trespassing the rules about which gender you are supposed to be in some way or other.
--Jay
Jay, that makes more sense to me now and actually I kind of lived that before I had the words to describe it. When I transitioned, I had to avow my interest in men only, and that I had no children and was not married to a woman. Once I signed off on that, and presented it to my therapist consistently, I was eligible to have HRT and then RLE and then SRS. If I was not able to present that then I was a gay man and just liked to dress up. I was totally pigeonholed either way. Binary or Binary, take your choice, and by the way, in my existence then, one same-sex experience and you're a 'homo' for life. When I ask you how you knew you weren't just lesbian (with a twist), I am coming from that broken explanation. Thanks for your patience helping me work this umbrella thing out. I appreciate it!
Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 09:56:18 AM
Jay, that makes more sense to me now and actually I kind of lived that before I had the words to describe it. When I transitioned, I had to avow my interest in men only, and that I had no children and was not married to a woman. Once I signed off on that, and presented it to my therapist consistently, I was eligible to have HRT and then RLE and then SRS. If I was not able to present that then I was a gay man and just liked to dress up. I was totally pigeonholed either way. Binary or Binary, take your choice, and by the way, in my existence then, one same-sex experience and you're a 'homo' for life. When I ask you how you knew you weren't just lesbian (with a twist), I am coming from that broken explanation. Thanks for your patience helping me work this umbrella thing out. I appreciate it!
Well, that is completely wrong and f'd up, because sexual orientation and gender have NOTHING whatsoever to do with each other. Wherever you are is backwards on that. Also I believe the RLE is a totally backwards concept. But oh well, you have to do what you have to do. But it is definitely what many trans people experienced.
I hope wherever you are will get to the 21st century at some point. Though where I am, my insurance didn't pay for surgery....Anyway, I saw a therapist who didn't even really diagnose me (he's trans), did not need a letter to get T, and then needed a letter for top surgery. All the letter said was: the therapist saw me for X amt of time; that surgery was the next step in my transition, and that I was living and presenting as male, though at the time I was not out at work (actually my surgeon doesn't really even require that you are male). The current WPATH standards do not require any of the above concepts that you mention. However, that said, it is kind of still rampant, but more of an issue with trans women (though still around for trans men).
--Jay