So all the discussion I've been having against ya know..gender dichotomy and binary etc is about to fly out the window for a second. Not that I doont believe that, cause I absolutely do, just..yeh.
I just...really really hate being transgender to be honest. I know most of us do, but at the same time I feel like a lot of you have found some internal sense of peace and belonging that I can't...I just can't get there.
It's funny because I'm at this point where like...passing is second nature. I've gotten to the point where I expect to pass no matter what I wear or whatever. And you know I'm blessed because I can wear what I want and act how I want and get compliments when I know there are some girls who can't, and I recognize that privilege.
But at the same time I feel...soo hopelessly out of place everywhere I go. When I'm around women it's the worst. And because of that i kind of avoid female-only atmospheres, when i can, because I feel like...the cat among the pigeons and like I'm somehow being deceptive. But then like the yesterday I was hanging out with my sister and these girls she worked with...and the girls had no idea I was trans so they were totally comfortable with me and they started talking about all this sh-t that..relates to anatomy and I just want to disappear when that happens.
I feel like...such a liar. And so hollow...like my self portrayal has no depth. I'm good at portraying the image of being female and receive the treatmeant if being female in return, yes. But at the end it feels...fake. I dunno.
Then with guys...when I get around a group of guys it's just awkward. I feel shy and bashful and get really quiet and like...I secretly wish I could identify with them tbh. I just wanna be normal so bad. I know it sounds stupid but I feel like...I have those parts right? So I wish I could like..feel that kinda kinship iguess haha? I dunno. But they just look at me and see a girl, soo.
Honestly, this is one of the hardest parts of the whole trans experience, to me. I can say what I wanna say about self acceptance, and how things should be, and I can be all into that...alternative view of gender. And honestly I do feel all that stuff and I do like androgyny and that. But sometimes? I just wanna be normal so bad. I'm tired of feeling fake and inauthentic and like my very existence is, at best, a close kept secret that I have to conceal and at worst a giant lie or deception.
Honestly some days...being male or female doesn't even matter to me. I just wanna be normal. But I feel like I'm at a point where I have no claim to either, anymore...I'm just a hybrid.
Does anyone else get this?
In a way I think.
I know this body will never be quite right no matter how much money or medical people I use. This others me to not feeling quite able to fit in either side. I do feel much more comfortable being with men as myself and do fine until it hits a snag somehow.
I can somewhat relate. I mean I did have to actively convince myself that I was not being fake when I portrayed myself as female in the early days. Luckily I kind of buy into the arguments I made, and therefore don't probably feel the strain you feel, and mostly don't have to do that anymore, at least not to that degree.
The way I see it is trans women are 100% women, but a kind of woman, like white women are a kind of woman. We are not exactly the same as cis women (any more than a short poor woman is exactly the same as a tall rich one) our socialization was different, especially in the most impressionable years, and our bodies physically differ, so we have a different relationship with them. And we can't necessarily feel kinship with other girls when they start talking about certain issues they have with their anatomy that we don't, especially periods... that comes up a lot. But we can be true to ourselves, be women, and be able to say (or just think to ourselves) you know, I haven't experienced these things cause I'm a trans woman, and it can be okay.
Just like how if a cis woman started talking like she understood what it was to grow up a trans woman I would narrow my eyes at her, she would probably do the same to me if I started acting like I knew what it is to grow up cis. We have almost everything in common with cis girls (well I do anyway, I'm probably talking like everybody is the same as me and I know they aren't) but in those few areas where we are dimorphic, it is okay to accept the differences. That there are areas where I am different from cis girls does not invalidate my womanhood, at all. I just accept it and am mostly okay with it.
Hey,
i have the exact same problem. The impossibility of being "normal" is a huge problem for me. Im pre everything and i have doubts that i will ever be happy whatever i do now. i will have a toxic future or have to live with a toxic past. being trans is a living nightmare for me. it is not just the anatomic, that i wont be able to talk about some themes, it is the secret. i think kill somebody on accident and keep it to oneself is comparable
greetings
If the secret bothers you that much, just be open about things to people. You aren't under any obligation to tell anybody anything though, people withhold details of their lives all the time.
I will say, in those instances where girls start talking about things I can't relate with on a personal level, it isn't an inclusive feeling. It makes me feel different. But the only way I could ever be in a group where that wouldn't happen is if I had a group of trans women my age to hang out with, from my some socio-economic background, who have had similar experiences with their own transitions, and ... I mean... I am the only trans person I know in real life. Not only that, I am the only trans person anybody I have come out to even knows. Obviously I will never have this mythical group of friends, we are just too rare and unique. So, I will always be an outsider in some ways. But truly, there are enough things I have in common with other women my age that I don't often feel that way. I do feel part of the group. And people always strive to be unique snowflakes, I don't have to strive for that lol.
I kind of know what you mean, except about the always passing part. I want people to see me strictly as female, but if they do, then I worry about what would happen if they found out otherwise, but then I also don't want to tell them as I do know the way they relate to me will change, it always does. So I am always careful not to get close to anyone and I tend to keep mostly to myself away from work. I don't feel like an authentic anything really and yeah, it bugs the crap out of me.
I felt that way living pre transition. Now I feel very well adjusted. :)
Jen, I'm quite jealous of that inner fortitude. It's soo hard convincing my brain that stuff.
I kinda feel like...I dunno. It's hard to describe. Like my gender doesn't have that...umph. Superficially, yeah, I'm a girl...but it's a hollow thing. I dunno how to describe it. Like...I'm still biologically male, objectively, in the end.
My big problem is, I'm indignant at the thought of being a guy...like almost oppositionally, like I shouldn't have to be a guy. But then deeep down I feel like I'm not really a girl. Even though I want to be. I feel like I'm not. And it feels like something I'm powerless to change. And trying to change it drives me crazy, like I already said to the point where I just wish so bad I was cis, anyway I could be...and the only way I could be cis would be as a guy...so suddenly I romanticize being a guy...except when actually aam one...then the process starts all over and I'm left at the same place again and again and again.
Which is why even now I resist the urge to detransition, which is there a teeeny bit, honestly. Because I know it won't logically solve the problem. It'll just continue the cycle, in the end.
Uggh..this is why I wish we lived in a society where genders weren't so distinguished..
Abby, in some ways we're a lot alike. I'm pre-T and pre-op, but pass so much it's what I expect, and am living full time (I too realize that I am blessed). It does feel awkward for me when others (of either gender) start sh*t talking about the opposite sex/gender, and sometimes I do feel like an outsider. However, I've felt like an outsider in the same sense for most of my life, so it's not really much of a change for me except that I have a name for it now.
One thing that helps me a bit is having several close friends that know me as a transguy, and I don't have to worry quite so much about how I'm being read.
And technically, though we are assigned female or male at birth, science is starting to prove that objectively, we are biologically trans, in the end.
Society is slow to catch up, per usual, but we belong as much as anyone else.
Quote from: Jen on May 11, 2014, 05:20:17 PM
If the secret bothers you that much, just be open about things to people. You aren't under any obligation to tell anybody anything though, people withhold details of their lives all the time.
I will say, in those instances where girls start talking about things I can't relate with on a personal level, it isn't an inclusive feeling. It makes me feel different. But the only way I could ever be in a group where that wouldn't happen is if I had a group of trans women my age to hang out with, from my some socio-economic background, who have had similar experiences with their own transitions, and ... I mean... I am the only trans person I know in real life. Not only that, I am the only trans person anybody I have come out to even knows. Obviously I will never have this mythical group of friends, we are just too rare and unique. So, I will always be an outsider in some ways. But truly, there are enough things I have in common with other women my age that I don't often feel that way. I do feel part of the group. And people always strive to be unique snowflakes, I don't have to strive for that lol.
maybe secret is the wrong word, english isnt my native and i havent much love to this language so my vocabulary is that of a 3 year old child. not to mention the retard like grammar...
it is the knowledge that you are not the same in a way they wont understand. and the average human avoid those things. it is not that you are a freak, a nerd or have other "normal" nuts. and on the other side it is you who know that your are a alien for them and still trans. i could be part of them till a theme comes up which brings the reality back to me. and it wouldnt matter if the group know that i am trans or not. i dont see this as a gender question, more or less female, it is more the alien thing. my own family, childs were important for me. the traditional family form. normal...
maybe i suffer not enough or long enough under the disphoria that i am unable to accept that i am trans as my normality. i want a normal life. nothing special. and trans is ->-bleeped-<-ing special. dont transition for a cis dream is seductive. i still hope a therapist will convince me that i am not trans...even if i know that wont happen, just to say whats running through my head. this is why abbys thoughts are really interesting for me
greetings
Hm, you know, in a way I feel the same, even though I could be considered binary. I see myself as a man, but knowing which parts I have...I guess I get scared people will find out? And accuse me of lying? Like I feel very nervous about it. I don't think that's exactly what you're going through, but these feelings I have often make me wish I was "normal" too, and unfortunately, by normal I do mean cisgender. :( I don't feel duplicitous in saying that I am a man, but the way I feel about my body makes me feel like I must be a fake.
I should add that even if I wanted to go back to being female, which I don't, I'm too far gone anyway and that would come off as super inauthentic.
Quote from: birkin on May 11, 2014, 09:10:31 PM
Hm, you know, in a way I feel the same, even though I could be considered binary. I see myself as a man, but knowing which parts I have...I guess I get scared people will find out? And accuse me of lying? Like I feel very nervous about it. I don't think that's exactly what you're going through, but these feelings I have often make me wish I was "normal" too, and unfortunately, by normal I do mean cisgender. :( I don't feel duplicitous in saying that I am a man, but the way I feel about my body makes me feel like I must be a fake.
I should add that even if I wanted to go back to being female, which I don't, I'm too far gone anyway and that would come off as super inauthentic.
It's something like this. I don't feel weird saying "ima girl" at all, but it doesn't pack the punch I wish it did. Like..if I never transitioned I could just be like "ima guy" and it would just BE. It's not like now where it's like...girl asterisk. It's like there's so much baggage in being this way it's almost like it's not even worth it, sometimes.
And the other thing is, I can't realky call myself a guy now without coming off as a bit silly, in most contexts. Which is okay, but it adds to that feeling of isolation cause nos...I reaally don't belong anywhere.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 11, 2014, 09:22:15 PM
Like..if I never transitioned I could just be like "ima guy" and it would just BE. It's not like now where it's like...girl asterisk.
yeah that's exactly how I feel. I've had a lot of occasions where people find out I am trans and they just don't see me as a guy. A bad experience a year ago that really scarred me, actually, with a supposed "cis ally." Or they do see me as a man, but as some special sort of man, like Man Lite or something lol. When I was female, it was like, it didn't even matter, it was just the way it was and other than maybe some subconscious sexism, no one really thought anything of it. But when they find out I'm trans...yeah, they just can't see me as a regular person. Even when they think I'm cis, I get all paranoid and caught up in my head, like "if they took off my clothes they'd see" and I can't even enjoy passing. I feel like I should be able to enjoy it, you know? This is how I like my body and the way I want to be seen in the world but the thoughts make it hard to enjoy it.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 11, 2014, 05:50:26 PM
I felt that way living pre transition. Now I feel very well adjusted. :)
Yes, I totally relate to this. I'm pre HRT and when I'm in the office I relate to no one. The few "real" friends I have are gay guys but I don't fit in with them either. They just don't judge me on the way I act sometimes or that I love style/fashion or that when I have a few drinks, I lose my facade and am just one of the girls. I take this as a compliment.
Abbyxo, my suggestion is to find friends to relate to based off one of your interests or hobbies. If you don't have a hobby, look for one. You might find a group of friends that you can relate to based on the interest. :D
Quote from: birkin on May 11, 2014, 09:38:17 PM
yeah that's exactly how I feel. I've had a lot of occasions where people find out I am trans and they just don't see me as a guy. A bad experience a year ago that really scarred me, actually, with a supposed "cis ally." Or they do see me as a man, but as some special sort of man, like Man Lite or something lol. When I was female, it was like, it didn't even matter, it was just the way it was and other than maybe some subconscious sexism, no one really thought anything of it. But when they find out I'm trans...yeah, they just can't see me as a regular person. Even when they think I'm cis, I get all paranoid and caught up in my head, like "if they took off my clothes they'd see" and I can't even enjoy passing. I feel like I should be able to enjoy it, you know? This is how I like my body and the way I want to be seen in the world but the thoughts make it hard to enjoy it.
Ugh...yes. very much that. It's a really hard feeling to describe. I think it's this feeling for me of like...i tell myself ya know...you can feel like a girl and look like a girl, but that doesn't mean you aare one.
I always do this but it's just this profound analogy that resonates so much with me, I liken it to this painting:
http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/rene-magritte/the-treachery-of-images-this-is-not-a-pipe-1948
It just...it's the only way I can sum up such a complex feeling. Like portraying the image of something, exactly, but not being that thing, not reaally. And I love the name, too, "treachery of images", because there is something treacherous about being trans.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 11, 2014, 09:59:51 PM
Ugh...yes. very much that. It's a really hard feeling to describe. I think it's this feeling for me of like...i tell myself ya know...you can feel like a girl and look like a girl, but that doesn't mean you aare one.
I always do this but it's just this profound analogy that resonates so much with me, I liken it to this painting:
http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/rene-magritte/the-treachery-of-images-this-is-not-a-pipe-1948
It just...it's the only way I can sum up such a complex feeling. Like portraying the image of something, exactly, but not being that thing, not reaally. And I love the name, too, "treachery of images", because there is something treacherous about being trans.
Ok, so here's another one of Kova's pearls of wisdom. This is a secret that sales people, TV producers and anyone that is in showbiz.
Perception is reality.
Lets take the analogy of the painting. People will happily pay for a forgery because to them it is the same thing. The funny truth about good forgeries is the brush technique can be perfect, the colors blended magnificently, the skill of the painter is without question. The one difference is the perception of the painting's origin.
At the end of the day, your origin doesn't matter as much as the fact you're still a beautifully crafted masterpiece. Don't get hung up on the asterisk. ;)
Hmm, well, I may diverge from you there. I don't feel that my male appearance is in any way treacherous, per se. I feel like their knowledge of my transness is what betrays my truth, rather than the fact that I'm trans in and of itself. Like as if, when they know I'm trans, my chances of ever being accepted for who I am is gone, and they'll always want to find a narrative to assign to me. Like I hate when guys come up and slap me on the back, because I'm dreading that they'll feel the sports bra straps. Or when a girl hugs me I'm scared she's going to feel too much. Or what if someone randomly decided to pants me in public (lol so unlikely but you know)?
Quote from: Kova V on May 11, 2014, 10:31:56 PM
Perception is reality.
Lets take the analogy of the painting. People will happily pay for a forgery because to them it is the same thing. The funny truth about good forgeries is the brush technique can be perfect, the colors blended magnificently, the skill of the painter is without question. The one difference is the perception of the painting's origin.
At the end of the day, your origin doesn't matter as much as the fact you're still a beautifully crafted masterpiece. Don't get hung up on the asterisk. ;)
I actually think that's quite insightful! I mean, some people would place a great deal of emphasis on the fact that a painting is original, but I think your point still holds up. You've given me something to think about here.
Alright, lemme get it out of the way...
Me too!
*gasp*
Yeah, obviously this seriously resonates with me a lot, and I don't know why. Actually I know why, so I guess I'll explain why.
It's a projection. Projections are a seriously strong psychological mechanism, like really, oh my god. Here's the problem. I know acutely, when living as a girl, that I am trans. I am extremely aware of that. Unfortunately empathy comes from the top down. I have to project how I think onto people to be able to empathize with how they think. That's why I will just never understand a lot of people. Because they are actually different. They actually think differently and have different prejudices... I mean I'll intellectualize the way they behave, and accept that I can't feel the same, but I won't understand, I won't feel how they feel authentically ever unless I happen to change to be authentically more similar to them.
So when I think about how someone will think about me, I can't unknow the potential of being seen as trans. And because I judge myself as unnatural for being trans, I can't help but fear that they will also judge me for being trans. The outsider. The other. A projection... exactly how I believe I really am in the first place. What I fear other people thinking... really to some extent tells me what I think about myself. That's why homophobes are often bi or gay.
Well, it actually can get better, you can feel more natural. I've definitely come a long way living as a girl even if I struggle with these kinds of fears over pretty much every little thing in my life, way beyond just gender. You ultimately have to change your perception of yourself, though. Either get more used to seeing yourself as being not different from other girls, or get out of the habit of thinking about the fact that you are trans (<---hard one to break obv, and basically leaves you without support for your feelings)... also to have a more positive view of either trans people as a whole, or of your unique self.
It's not easy to change all those things... just gotta go with what you think you can actually change. :) You can always become less aware of things... so maybe paying attention to how often you think about being trans, then letting those thoughts go as they come up, making conscious efforts to avoid dwelling on them.
Losing the fear of being known as trans is a big one... that's the whole reason I accepted myself as a boy. I wanted to basically trick my mind with total acceptance of what I am. Well and I mean, I just like the simplicity and naturalness of identifying as a boy, and still being able to say at least some of the time that it doesn't matter. And honestly, it does and has helped quite a lot even though I still present as, to other people, a girl.
Also, having more experiences will make you feel more like other girls, or at least less of an otherness. And it sounds like you're doing that anyway so..
And this is another sort of trick, but, thinking about external things makes you less able to think about and be conscious of yourself. So instead of reacting personally to people, maybe you could judge them a little, lol. :3 Just notice things about them and try to be conscious of when you're comparing or bringing it back on yourself, and again, just nudge your thoughts back to them or to the outside world, to observing and taking in rather than processing and concluding and stuff.
Those are just some things that are helping me personally... I know it aint easy though. :c
*hugs to all suffering from this* :<
Honestly the only way I found my inner peace after years of struggling was finding my passion. Like I totally get where you're coming from Abbey. I also pass fully, can wear whatever, hang out with women and feel the same way. Except in my case I just prefer to hang out with women, I always seem to connect easier with them. With guys its always a bit more of an effort since they're usually more closed off, at least thats been my experience. But when anything female body related comes up, I just go with the flow and listen. I cringe in the back of my mind too and feel like poop about it but in the end its whatever cause I know trans woman or not. Cis women deal with a lot of our same issues, especially body dysphoria..
So yeah if I were you, definitely try finding something you're deeply passionate about cause it will make your world 10x times better. And make the hard moments much easier to deal with.
Quote from: sad panda on May 11, 2014, 11:13:19 PM
Well, it actually can get better, you can feel more natural. I've definitely come a long way living as a girl even if I struggle with these kinds of fears over pretty much every little thing in my life, way beyond just gender. You ultimately have to change your perception of yourself, though.
YES!! agreed, I actually just did this the other day and finally found a way to cope with my bottom dysphoria.
Quote from: sad panda on May 11, 2014, 11:13:19 PM
Also, having more experiences will make you feel more like other girls, or at least less of an otherness. And it sounds like you're doing that anyway so..
I think there is a lot of truth in this. And therefore to an extent, this is a problem that can sort of take care of itself if you give it time. You get to where being a woman is the most natural thing, and it is the only way you can think of yourself, and you look back and you can't even imagine being a man and it is the phoniest fakest thing you could ever think of trying to be. Once you start being in that headspace, feeling authentic about being a woman is the only nature you have. I am already kinda feeling this way. In 10 or 20 years I imagine it will be impossible to see myself as anything but, just given how even now, a few years in, I look back at that person I was supposed to be and feel zero recognition. Like who was that? Me?? Wtf.. Nothing about transition has given me a stronger feeling of dissonance than that.
Yeah, those are all really good points everybody, so thank you.
At the end of it, though...and I don't mean this as a relfection on anyone but me because half the struggle of being trans is internal...but at the end of it, the more I go out and socialize in get active and such the more I feel this way, and here's why...
I honestly feel like I'm living an experience that isn't mine...like I may wish it was mine and I may have always wished it was mine...but in my mind this experience doesn't belong to me. And that's a reality of my birth whether I like it or not.
The male experience, then. It's uncomfortable, yes. Highly uncomfortable. But I'm entitled to it..it's something that I am owed because of my birth.
I'm the type of person where....authenticity is very important to me. It always has been. I have certain ideals of...I dunno. All I know is, I feel out of place around women because I feel like...they are entitled to that identity, and I'm not. I live it and nobody's any the wiser but I'm different, still. And this is an unchangeable reality.
I guess...I just hate seeming disingenuous. And in my mind, there's something fundamentally disingenuous in my self portrayal no matter how convincing. And I think...I always come off as strange to people because that inner feeling of incongruency resonates to the surface, so I seem sad or overly thoughtful and takes me away from my experiences and interactions with others.
I guess fundamentally the way I see it is that I'm a guy still. And for some reason, who knows and who cares why, I have always wanted to be female inside. But that's not the experience I was born into, like it or not. And I can look the part, and sound the part, and feel the part and smell the part...and I do. But in my mind I can't...BE it.
And I guess thats a backward, messed up view of gender that reeks of internalized transphobia, internalization of gender roles yada yada but yeah..
I think you feel its a lie, Because you ARE hiding somthing. I Tell my freinds all the time i wish i was normal, But I wish I was a normal Woman. And Im not. But they accept me as a woman, Just an abnormal one.
What you need to do is figur out if its a normal boy or girl you wish you was. And then fight for your rights as a person to be treat equally because you dont tick all the boxes.
And if that means fighting for your a right to look how you want to look and behave in a natural way and to identify as one or the other and not be victimised because of it thats what trans rights is about.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 12, 2014, 12:17:41 PM
The male experience, then. It's uncomfortable, yes. Highly uncomfortable. But I'm entitled to it..it's something that I am owed because of my birth.
I am totally confused now? ??? Are you fighting yourself to be male or female? Sounds like you are upset you are not living as a male with all the privileges involved. I am trying desperately to understand this. From what I get so far you want to be a female some of the time, but live with male identity. Help me out here, I'm blonde! ;)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 12, 2014, 01:10:26 PM
I am totally confused now? ??? Are you fighting yourself to be male or female? Sounds like you are upset you are not living as a male with all the privileges involved. I am trying desperately to understand this. From what I get so far you want to be a female some of the time, but live with male identity. Help me out here, I'm blonde! ;)
No, it's not quite that. I don't want to live as male, per se. I mean I do romanticize it a bit but that's only because I was born male...so I think I romanticize the authenticity in it...I guess quite frankly the authenticity I see in being cis or living cis, at least, as opposed to trans. And then, of course, I'm attracted to males so there's that element of being able to...appreciate that experience in different ways, but that's a whole other conversation.
But, yeah, that's why. It's not that I don't want to be female for any reason...societal disadvantages or otherwise. None of that plays a role because regardless I would definitely prefer to be a female....but I'm not sure if I wanna be a girl as much as I want to feel real and authentic and I can't help it but I just...don't, this way.
So I guess you could say either way I'm fighting myself. Feelings of incongruency...as male I wish I was female because...god knows why, I'm transgender whatever. But then as transfemale I wish I was cis, and by extension, male, because it's an experience that I feel entitled to and that I feel is a more genuine self portrayal.
It's a bit of a problem...
I suppose I am lucky. I feel female in my heart and soul and don't over think things like this. I consider myself an authentic woman with a birth defect. I own it, revel in it and feel in tune with the universe. There is never the option for me to go back to living as a male because I never was one. Make sense? :)
*boi hugsssss*
Sorry if I'm not helping :(
Come to the dark sideee, let yourself be a boy who is just telling everyone you're a girl if you feel that way anyway
It's so much easier mentally. :)
Sorry if I'm not helping ;-;
Do you feel if you were able to feel authentic in whatever way you prefer to present yourself to the world that it would fix it?
Quote from: Jen on May 12, 2014, 01:37:08 PM
Do you feel if you were able to feel authentic in whatever way you prefer to present yourself to the world that it would fix it?
Also, do you have any Dysphoria symptoms when you present as male or not? ???
@Sad Panda,
Actually, yes! That is kind of what I have been doing...it gives me like a safety net. I guess it's kind of a mental thing right? But I feel silly a bit, especially because I have boobs...I have way more boobs than I expected, too. But yeah, it's weird because I actually feel myself getting a bit euphoric when I hear my birth name these days..
@Jen,
I don't know. I guess because I stand on this weird genderline where...unless I have an overtly masculine presentation, I don't pass as male, and that's just..not comfortable, like overly masculine. In theory, I kinda like the idea, in practice, no.
@Jessica,
I do. I mean, not like...body dysphoria. Call it perception dysphoria. I feel uncomfirtable being perceived as male...or at least the type of male I'm perceived as when I'm not being perceived as female which is like...too masculine.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 12, 2014, 01:56:57 PM
I do. I mean, not like...body dysphoria. Call it perception dysphoria. I feel uncomfirtable being perceived as male...or at least the type of male I'm perceived as when I'm not being perceived as female which is like...too masculine.
??? :eusa_doh: :eusa_think: :icon_weirdface: ???
I need some caffeine real quick! That went over me like a B2 Stealth at night. :)
Sorry Abby, not making fun of your situation just didn't sleep last night so I am not this sharp today! :-*
It seems you have a kindred spirit in Sad Panda, heh. That has seemed immediately pretty obv. :)
I feel like you are experiencing your gender issues differently than me, or at least you're intellectualizing them very differently, so I feel like I don't have the perspective you need, but you are not alone. Not just Panda, but I do hear similar things from other people. I wish I could help more :(
I know it's confusing I'm sorry guys xD
Let me put it this way..I have highly conflicted feelings. Everybody tells me I'm like dissociative (which I'm not) because I have opposite sides...like dramatically so. Which is also a symptom of BPD, so there's that.
Secretly I'm left to wonder if all of this is just mental illness. Can I be frank with you all? I wonder if at my core, beneath the dysfunction, that maybe I'm really just a male who had a not so great youth and learned to cope and process things in an unhealthy way, at a really early age. I haven't talked about this with my therapost because I want her to sign my gender change affidavit eventually, but yeah.
It's almost like...womanhood is like a shell for me. Something I find strength in. And masculinity feels vulnerable because of all the expectations and roles, that I evidently don't measure up to, because I aam naturally feminine. So I think maybe at a young age that along with other stuff translated into dysphoria. I dunnno. All I know is my dysphoria isn't the same, it's more complex.
I think that makes perfect sense! Not the mental illness part, but why you feel this way. Eureka! A break through! Now the question is what are you going to do with this knowledge? If you feel you don't measure up to masculinity what now? Transition fully or stay androgynous? :)
I think you have finally reached a deciding path myself. Just don't go backward and look to the future. We can't change the past so move on with the future.
@Jessica,
Welll, I'm nit sure. Never, ever surgery. I'll always be non op. But right now I feel like I really need long hair. Don't ask me why...it's a little thing but important to me. I'm interested in seeing how I feel in like...a very concretely female presentation like that.
I've considered dropping E and staing on AA but, ehh. I doubt I will. It's just that my boobs have gotten rather...full/noticeable. Some days it's like...oohah, yaay, tits! And others it's like....what are these fat bags and why are they hanging off my chest xDD
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 12, 2014, 03:11:43 PM
I'm interested in seeing how I feel in like...a very concretely female presentation like that.
Sounds like a good plan to me! :)
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 12, 2014, 03:11:43 PM
And others it's like....what are these fat bags and why are they hanging off my chest xDD
LOL. This is pretty much how I have always seen breasts. Fat bags, or a bum on your chest lol. They kind of are ridiculous. I have never, nor do I think I will ever, get the fascination with them. But paradoxically, I want them. Just cause I know people want me to have them I guess? And they would make look more normal? I really don't know. This is one thing where I am for sure being motivated by what society expects more than what I want.
Quote from: Jen on May 12, 2014, 03:35:55 PM
LOL. This is pretty much how I have always seen breasts. Fat bags, or a bum on your chest lol. They kind of are ridiculous. I have never, nor do I think I will ever, get the fascination with them. But paradoxically, I want them. Just cause I know people want me to have them I guess? And they would make look more normal? I really don't know. This is one thing where I am for sure being motivated by what society expects more than what I want.
They're very strange lol. Sometimes it's weird for me that I have them and like I lay flat on my back so they roll into my armpits and aren't so noticeable...like sleeping on my side...ugh, cleavage up to my neck xD not fun.
But then other times I wear pushups and put them on display, but that's more cause I'm an attention whore that way lol.
Quote from: AbbyxoI wonder if at my core, beneath the dysfunction, that maybe I'm really just a male who had a not so great youth and learned to cope and process things in an unhealthy way, at a really early age. I haven't talked about this with my therapost because I want her to sign my gender change affidavit eventually, but yeah.
Abby, you might want to reconsider talking about this with your therapist -- her job is to help you figure out what's right for you, not to be some sort of gatekeeper (those days are pretty much over, thank goodness). She'll probably tell you that it's totally normal to question who you are and to go back and forth on this stuff. When I first admitted that my gender ID was at the core of my problems (mostly depression), it was devastating and I didn't want to accept it at all, despite the fact that I've known for decades that I've
never identified as female. A lot of back-and forth there... but I needed to go through it and work it out. I couldn't have done it without a good therapist -- it was
way too scary.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 12, 2014, 03:42:29 PM
They're very strange lol. Sometimes it's weird for me that I have them and like I lay flat on my back so they roll into my armpits and aren't so noticeable...like sleeping on my side...ugh, cleavage up to my neck xD not fun.
But then other times I wear pushups and put them on display, but that's more cause I'm an attention whore that way lol.
Lol, I mean if you sort of contain them, and push them up in certain ways, ok I can see how it adds to your shapeliness and maybe I can see how they look ok? But when you let them just kind be natural, boobs are ugly. There I said it. Lol
Mine are still pretty small and I do wish they were bigger just cause I am expected to have them or whatever, but even at this size all they are is uncomfortable and just kinda getting in the way and require that I wear this extra scaffolding under my shirt. But I still want them to be bigger. Is that effed up?
Quote from: Jen on May 12, 2014, 03:50:46 PM
Lol, I mean if you sort of contain them, and push them up in certain ways, ok I can see how it adds to your shapeliness and maybe I can see how they look ok? But when you let them just kind be natural, boobs are ugly. There I said it. Lol
Mine are still pretty small and I do wish they were bigger just cause I am expected to have them or whatever, but even at this size all they are is uncomfortable and just kinda getting in the way. But I still want them to be bigger. Is that effed up?
Mine are like...full, 30Bs, lol. And I'm almost underweight, so they show up on my body a fair bit.. But yeah, they are a bit unsightly when they're freestylin, hahah.
Tysilio,yeah, I meann..I dunno. My therapist isn't very good. And I haven't seen her in forever but idont want her tolike...re evaluate my diagnosis. Maybe in other areas it's not like that but she seems to put a lot of stock in my certainty. She's kinda crap tbh and then there's a problem cause she screwed up the billing..drama, drama drama.
The sad thing is she's the only one for hours that handles GID.
Quote from: Jen on May 12, 2014, 03:35:55 PM
LOL. This is pretty much how I have always seen breasts. Fat bags, or a bum on your chest lol. They kind of are ridiculous. I have never, nor do I think I will ever, get the fascination with them. But paradoxically, I want them. Just cause I know people want me to have them I guess? And they would make look more normal? I really don't know. This is one thing where I am for sure being motivated by what society expects more than what I want.
I Will point out that evey woman I know wishes she could take her breast off. It helps me cope with the times I have to remove mine, but makes me feel its unfair that i can.
Quote from: Tysilio on May 12, 2014, 03:47:11 PM
Abby, you might want to reconsider talking about this with your therapist -- her job is to help you figure out what's right for you, not to be some sort of gatekeeper (those days are pretty much over, thank goodness). She'll probably tell you that it's totally normal to question who you are and to go back and forth on this stuff. When I first admitted that my gender ID was at the core of my problems (mostly depression), it was devastating and I didn't want to accept it at all, despite the fact that I've known for decades that I've never identified as female. A lot of back-and forth there... but I needed to go through it and work it out. I couldn't have done it without a good therapist -- it was way too scary.
Ohh I Should listen to this too.
Quote from: Jen on May 12, 2014, 03:50:46 PM
Lol, I mean if you sort of contain them, and push them up in certain ways, ok I can see how it adds to your shapeliness and maybe I can see how they look ok? But when you let them just kind be natural, boobs are ugly. There I said it. Lol
:o Blasphemy.
Actually having boobs is weird though, I can't deny that. I prefer others to carry the burden. :P
@Abby, some (most) people think boobs are the best thing ever, so don't let me make you feel like they're ugly. I know I am the weird one lol
Quote from: birkin on May 12, 2014, 03:57:53 PM
:o Blasphemy.
Actually having boobs is weird though, I can't deny that. I prefer others to carry the burden. :P
Ha :)
Jen, no, I mean...they're unattractive to me too, so dw, haha. But heyy the gents seem to like em, so yaa know haha
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 12, 2014, 12:17:41 PM
I'm the type of person where....authenticity is very important to me. It always has been. I have certain ideals of...I dunno. All I know is, I feel out of place around women because I feel like...they are entitled to that identity, and I'm not. I live it and nobody's any the wiser but I'm different, still. And this is an unchangeable reality.
I guess...I just hate seeming disingenuous. And in my mind, there's something fundamentally disingenuous in my self portrayal no matter how convincing. And I think...I always come off as strange to people because that inner feeling of incongruency resonates to the surface, so I seem sad or overly thoughtful and takes me away from my experiences and interactions with others.
I guess fundamentally the way I see it is that I'm a guy still. And for some reason, who knows and who cares why, I have always wanted to be female inside. But that's not the experience I was born into, like it or not. And I can look the part, and sound the part, and feel the part and smell the part...and I do. But in my mind I can't...BE it.
And I guess thats a backward, messed up view of gender that reeks of internalized transphobia, internalization of gender roles yada yada but yeah..
I really, really understand what you're saying. I feel that way all the time. Birth and biology feel like everything; it's basically the reason I majored in bio, so that I can wrap my mind around it.
There may be some legitimate, natural reason for transphobia, both internal and external. I mean, after all, throughout human history those who pair bonded with someone who wasn't the sex they presented as, neither of them were having children. Religious powers amplified the feeling in society, especially through homophobia.
But never forget one thing: humans are more than just animals, predestined by anatomy. The amazing breadth of our emotions and thoughts truly make us something fundamentally different. Those give us our identity, through and through, and that's not just lip service.
If you swapped bodies with another person... you wouldn't *be* that person, would you?
Quote from: AbbyxoTysilio,yeah, I meann..I dunno. My therapist isn't very good. And I haven't seen her in forever but idont want her tolike...re evaluate my diagnosis. Maybe in other areas it's not like that but she seems to put a lot of stock in my certainty. She's kinda crap tbh and then there's a problem cause she screwed up the billing..drama, drama drama.
The sad thing is she's the only one for hours that handles GID.
Abby, that stinks. It's just wrong that it's this hard to find a good therapist. I had a crap therapist a looong time ago, and when I brought up my gender ID, she was.... well, disrespectful and dismissive. If she hadn't been, I might have been able to transition decades ago.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 11, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
Does anyone else get this?
Unfortunately I do. I'm a gender bender, and while most or at least the majority I've seen here tend to like it and embrace it, I HATE IT! I only wish to be fully female, nothing else, yet my body is male and my mind/soul is female at times, male at times and both (Neutral) at times. I don't much mind the neutral at this point but I hate hate HATE feeling at all male. (Not to mention looking like one) Plus, like you when I'm around people, well, sometimes I'll feel fake and it's not right just because I don't know most of the things girls already know and because I wasn't born with the right body, I feel as though I have to keep it a secret or others won't treat me like I wish to be treated...not to mention I'm a very honest person..
I think whether you are binary or fluid or anything in between, you can get in places like this.
I am personally very binary, very male. I feel very male. I do have enough behaviors that aren't "normal" for a male person that I raise eyebrows occasionally.
When I'm around men, I sometimes feel like a liar, like I should tell them I don't have the "right" genitalia or upbringing. When I'm around women sometimes I feel like a predator, or like I'm giving them the wrong idea about men in general. Like my behavior or opinion as a man isn't quite valid anywhere.
The earlier advice to just tell people about your transition isn't bad but isn't always feasible. I started into this thinking I'd be out to everybody, all the time. Then I encountered situations where it was not safe to be out. Then when I got to reliably passing I got to where I don't know how to bring it up. How do you announce your gender foibles and who you were raised as when nobody asks? It's hard to even bring up sexual orientation when it's not obvious, and it's not like people check your official status on these things when you go places.
Sometimes I miss being a woman, or at least being able to talk about the experience of it. I'm positive that's not strange, and that having internal conflict about your own identity isn't abnormal either. Sometimes I feel like a fake or a failure because I have memories and habits that don't work with who I am right now.
Regarding therapy, you might need to find a therapist you like and then just shoehorn them into dealing with GID. I live in Portland, known (by people who know it) for being progressive and welcoming, and I've still had to do that with some of them. My current therapist is at an LGBT youth center, and well-trained in gender issues, but not better than some of the therapists I've had who knew nothing about the topic before meeting me. Sometimes whether you click with the person and what you need from them is way more important than their prior experience.
Being normal is vastly over rated. If your completely normal than your completely average. Personally, I'd rather be an outcast, different, weird, a freak, you name it so long as it's not normal.
Abby have you ever considered hanging out with a group of queer identified people. I've always found my queer friends to be a lot of fun , and there is something nice about being with people who you can be completely honest about yourself and they won't question you or start misgendering you. Maybe you will feel more authentic since with them you can just be yourself without worrying about the societal rules of the gender binary. Your also young enough to probably be able to go to a queer youth center if there is one near you.
Personally, I don't feel truly male or female. A hybrid or nothing would probably be a good way to describe me. I just think I feel and appear close enough to female that its easier to let the world see me that way.
Abby sorry it took me this long to respond... I don't check all the boards regularly otherwise I would have said something sooner.
I think there's almost inevitably a big difference between trans people who are readily perceived as their non-assigned gender and those who are not. Our experience seems to be more rare on these boards, and also the experience of not having the "trapped in my own body feeling."
I don't feel inauthentic, either as a woman or a man. I feel that gender is inauthentic, and I have qualities of both genders that I apply to specific situations. I'm generally happier as female and only occasionally and in special situations identify as male, a bit more often as genderqueer. I love all these parts of myself, always have always will. It doesn't mean I don't experience moments of crisis, and definitely more of them when I was pre-op, but at heart that's always been how I've felt.
I'm really lucky to have formed super-close friendships with both men and women. The socializing you describe feels relatively superficial, but there's something about knowing so much about someone, about almost living their lives with them, that makes it easier to see yourself in their shoes. It sounds like right now, you might be experiencing womanhood as superficial because that's the part you've experienced. As my friendships deepened as a woman, I increasingly felt much more at home being a woman.
So that's where I am. I hope this helps and don't hesitate to call / e-mail / text.
Quote from: mandonlym on May 15, 2014, 09:49:42 PM
Abby sorry it took me this long to respond... I don't check all the boards regularly otherwise I would have said something sooner.
I think there's almost inevitably a big difference between trans people who are readily perceived as their non-assigned gender and those who are not. Our experience seems to be more rare on these boards, and also the experience of not having the "trapped in my own body feeling."
I don't feel inauthentic, either as a woman or a man. I feel that gender is inauthentic, and I have qualities of both genders that I apply to specific situations. I'm generally happier as female and only occasionally and in special situations identify as male, a bit more often as genderqueer. I love all these parts of myself, always have always will. It doesn't mean I don't experience moments of crisis, and definitely more of them when I was pre-op, but at heart that's always been how I've felt.
I'm really lucky to have formed super-close friendships with both men and women. The socializing you describe feels relatively superficial, but there's something about knowing so much about someone, about almost living their lives with them, that makes it easier to see yourself in their shoes. It sounds like right now, you might be experiencing womanhood as superficial because that's the part you've experienced. As my friendships deepened as a woman, I increasingly felt much more at home being a woman.
So that's where I am. I hope this helps and don't hesitate to call / e-mail / text.
Thanks for the post Meredith...you're such a good writer, the "gender is inauthentic" line really resonated with me. I agree so much xD
Butyeah, thanks for this post *hug*. And thank you all for your input, advice, etc I really do appreciate it
Mandolym
"I don't feel inauthentic, either as a woman or a man. I feel that gender is inauthentic, and I have qualities of both genders that I apply to specific situations." Your response is pretty much my read on my situation and my truth. Physically male but progressively more androgynous in presentation I feel most comfortable and authentic when I flow and move according to the conversation and circumstance displaying and utilising qualities and behaviours which while frequently gendered are to my mind nothing of the sort. They are the qualities that all folk should be able to access and to express.
Aisla
I feel like we're under so much pressure to conform to some sort of standard narrative, and one of them now is that trans people need to feel trapped in their body or be dysmorphic to transition, because medical necessity is the only reason to do it. It's out lives; we can be trans for whatever our own personal reasons are.
For me, I figured out that I prefer to be a woman within the gender system I was living in. I prefer to be a strong woman rather than a feminine man, and I prefer to be a beautiful woman over an ordinary-looking man. I won't apologize for that, nor would I apologize for transitioning partly to be with men who like women, because I prefer the dynamic of being with a man as a woman rather than with being a man as a man. When I sleep with men now, it doesn't mean I "tricked" them into having sex with me because I feel this way. It means that I made the decision that it was worth transitioning to be with them.
I will never apologize for my life because I'm not normal. In my opinion, trying to be who you're not is what requires an apology, mainly to yourself.
"I will never apologize for my life because I'm not normal. In my opinion, trying to be who you're not is what requires an apology, mainly to yourself."
Mandonlym
Thank you for this. If you don't mind I will use this phrase. It is powerfully affirming.
Aisla
I also feel out of place everywhere. I'm recently post-op and I just feel that I don't fit in, and it's very hard for me to open up to other people. For me, though, It's similar yet different. I feel artificial. With every little 'outside help' that I get, I mean surgeries, I feel less and less natural. I had my SRS, normal-sized silicone implants for the boobs (Hormones wasn't enough), the medication, electrolisis, and considering a Facial Feminization.
I feel they help me to see myself better, but I also feel that I wish I didn't have to need them, but can't help it, they are absolutely needed to be seen just as I am, I need my outside to reflect my inside. What concerns me the most, though; is the inability to give birth. To never be able to be a mother. I know there are many childs who need adoption, but still, maternity, beeing able to give life, is a very important part of beeing a woman, and I will never be able to give a child to my love. That makes me feel terrible. I never even felt the need of having a kid until I fell in love so deep and absolutely crazy with this guy. We are officialy together, we see a future together, we even consider marriage, we make extremely happy each other (even when we have fights, its absolutely crazy :P) so it gets me on my nerves to think that one day he might want to have kids and then I will be unable to have our own.
Quote from: Meria on May 18, 2014, 01:56:32 AM
I also feel out of place everywhere. I feel artificial. With every little 'outside help' that I get, I mean surgeries, I feel less and less natural. I had my SRS, normal-sized silicone implants for the boobs (Hormones wasn't enough), the medication, electrolisis, and considering a Facial Feminization.
I feel they help me to see myself better, but I also feel that I wish I didn't have to need them, but can't help it, they are absolutely needed to be seen just as I am, I need my outside to reflect my inside.
Meria
Like many non binaries, my story is similar but different to the more usual tg narrative. I know that my narrative differs from the norm, but the further I travel in my journey, which is a journey to find and to express myself, the better I feel. Hrt, FFS, electrolysis and a more androgynous presentation has meant that I feel less dissonance between my male birth gender and my non binary or GQ nature. My outside is better resembling my inside and I definitely don't feel artificial. Gender is in many ways an artificial, social or power construct. Provided that I am not signalling that I am 100 per cent male or female gendered then I am good. As more androgynous or even when sending mixed gender signals I feel significantly more authentic and real, as I feel that I am being both truer to, and closer to, my nature.
I have wrestled with my need for low dose hrt but I now accept it as necessary to help me address both a physical and an emotional need. Provided I don't reach a situation where I consistently 'male fail' then I am good with it. Being able to access and express so called female and male gendered characteristics and presentation works well for me and the added bonus is that it rids me of my intense GD and does not require me to walk away from my life experience and the journey that has brought me to this increasingly wonderful place.
Aisla
Quote from: Aisla on May 17, 2014, 08:45:13 AM
"I will never apologize for my life because I'm not normal. In my opinion, trying to be who you're not is what requires an apology, mainly to yourself."
Mandonlym
Thank you for this. If you don't mind I will use this phrase. It is powerfully affirming.
Aisla
Absolutely. Please use it as you wish. It would be an honor.