I read in WPATH that genderqueer people can transition, does this also apply to Australia??
My therapist has suggested that I might be a little more genderqueer than MTF several times.. He's a little more right about that than I'll admit to.
So I guess some Aussie therapists are open to the idea..
I don't see why not, especially if you believe transition would improve your standard of life and self image. You would probably need to convince them though.
I'm sorry if this seems insensitive or offensive... but I'm curious why someone who identifies as, 'genderqueer' would want to transition from one gender to the other, especially considering the premise of being, 'genderqueer' meaning they don't identify with either gender that they'd then transition to?
Quote from: teeg on May 27, 2014, 06:42:50 PM
I'm sorry if this seems insensitive or offensive... but I'm curious why someone who identifies as, 'genderqueer' would want to transition from one gender to the other, especially considering the premise of being, 'genderqueer' meaning they don't identify with either gender that they'd then transition to?
Because reagrdless of our identities, we might feel more comfortable being closer to something other than their birth sex. Genderqueer people do still suffer from dysphoria. I'm genderqueer, but am far, far more comfortable in who I am by being more to the female end of the spectrum..
Just because I don't fit the somewhat narrow definition of transsexual doesn't mean I don't need medical assistance.
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 27, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Because reagrdless of our identities, we might feel more comfortable being closer to something other than their birth sex. Genderqueer people do still suffer from dysphoria. I'm genderqueer, but am far, far more comfortable in who I am by being more to the female end of the spectrum.
That's a good explanation, Kelly. Those with more fluid genders can still hover around one end of the gender spectrum - e.g. those who identify as somewhere between female and androgynous on any given day, rather than simply oscillating between male and female. Add into the mix the concept that a MtF may experience some fluidity too and it's not unreasonable to encounter people who were born guys but are really girls who flit from female to something close to female.
Yeah, you explained it far better. It does get confusing.
Exactly what they said.
I don't really identify as any specific gender, however, I fall a lot closer to female if you want to put a label on it.
There are just days when I prefer to be in "boy" mode.
Thanks for the replies girls :)
Freyjja
Short answer is that yes a competent endo in Oz will help a tg person who is seeking to achieve an authentic expression of their identity whether gq or otherwise. In fact they will work with you and provide you with some discretion as to how you may vary your hrt to achieve the result that you desire. This enables you to avoid a binary outcome which may take you out of your comfort zone and bring you a whole lot more distress or discomfort.
Aisla
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 27, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Because reagrdless of our identities, we might feel more comfortable being closer to something other than their birth sex. Genderqueer people do still suffer from dysphoria. I'm genderqueer, but am far, far more comfortable in who I am by being more to the female end of the spectrum..
Just because I don't fit the somewhat narrow definition of transsexual doesn't mean I don't need medical assistance.
Yup, wonderful explanation :). I consider androgyne rather than genderqueer, but I found that HRT has significantly reduced my GD, by allowing to feel and express my core identity which is female. I turned out during transition – and quite unexpectedly – that I actually dont mind having a bit of masculine identity as long as ,,he" is kept in check and behaves properly. Any attempts to get rid of that part caused lots of distress and anguish, so eventually I just accepted being somewhere on the non-binary spectrum. But those results would never be achieved without transition as such.
I am totally screwed without hormones. It is needed, and it is on my letter, along with not fitting the binary definitions.
No worries. Some of us need hormones regardless of presentations. Plural. ;)
Without them, I am in deep psychological trouble.
I am in the states, not bad over here to be GQ and get what is needed.
Enjoy
I was talking to my endo about another matter which fits into a WPATH grey area, and he said that in Australia they are guidelines not law- there is a lot of wiggle room so long as it is in the patients best interest.
If your brain is only partially masculinized in utero it makes sense that you may benefit from having higher than male estrogen levels in your system.
Where in Australia are you?
Quote from: Satinjoy on May 29, 2014, 03:21:58 PMIt is needed, and it is on my letter, along with not fitting the binary definitions.
Without them, I am in deep psychological trouble.
To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available, and more importantly how physicians could ethically prescribe either male or female hormones to a patient who says they don't feel male nor female... ??? I'd be concerned for the patient's mental and physical health upon the administration of hormones. If one thinks they are not a female, but wants to take female hormones which will turn their body into a female's, or thinks they are not a male, but wants to take male hormones which will turn their body into a male's, how will this help anything?
Quote from: Emmaline on May 29, 2014, 07:49:02 PMIf your brain is only partially masculinized in utero it makes sense that you may benefit from having higher than male estrogen levels in your system.
Women have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason. You can't start adding a little estrogen here and there unless you're indifferent to probably experiencing Gynecomastia, infertility, stroke risk, cardiac risk, prostate issues, weight gain, low sex drive, and probably more than I can't remember. It's unfortunate that so many people seem to underestimate the seriousness of hormonal effects on the body and seem to think that this is something that can be played around with.
teeg
If you identify as non binary then adding a little E here and Spiro there is exactly what you do do to relieve your intense dysphoria. The intent here is to address the dysphoria that any tg person feels but in this case this dysphoria relates to an identity (emotional, physical, and spiritual) which is neither 100 per cent male nor 100 per cent female. We are not talking the pursuit of a binarised presentation - in fact, the contrary is sought and is necessary for those who don't fit neatly into the little boxes marked male and female. Its disappointing that binary thinking could impact someone's awareness of appropriate and quite safe, when supervised, treatment. This is not just common practice it is regarded as best practice for the therapy of non binary identified individuals.
Aisla
Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available, and more importantly how physicians could ethically prescribe either male or female hormones to a patient who says they don't feel male nor female... ??? I'd be concerned for the patient's mental and physical health upon the administration of hormones. If one thinks they are not a female, but wants to take female hormones which will turn their body into a female's, or thinks they are not a male, but wants to take male hormones which will turn their body into a male's, how will this help anything?
My case is a little different. Initially I was sure I was a woman.. Time and life experience have taught me different. It was my therapist who made the suggestion I was more genderqueer than MtF initially, a suggestion I scoffed at and denied at the time. A year later and I realised he'd been right. My therapist, gyno and I have had a discussion about changing my hormones, but stopping them never came up. In the end, no changes were made. I take hormones because I have a brain that runs much better when it has estrogen to work with. I'm also happier with a more feminine presentation. I have a preference for female pronouns.. But I won't rip your head off for salling me sir.
QuoteWomen have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason. You can't start adding a little estrogen here and there unless you're indifferent to probably experiencing Gynecomastia, infertility, stroke risk, cardiac risk, prostate issues, weight gain, low sex drive, and probably more than I can't remember. It's unfortunate that so many people seem to underestimate the seriousness of hormonal effects on the body and seem to think that this is something that can be played around with.
The binary thinking in this astounds me.. I'm well aware of the risks, probably better than most. I take hormones because they are what I need. They've helped quell the depression that has haunted me my whole life - far better than any medication I'd been prescribed in the past. And like I said, my brain just runs better on estrogen.
Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available (snip)
Only concerning to the one who is color blind to the point where there is active denial of boxes (genders) that
aren't in the colors "pink" and "blue" (male and female). Time to not just think outside the binary but use the boxes as cat beds.
Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
Women have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason.
Never assume either the biology or the gender characteristics of other humans. You've failed two for two so far. If a person with non-binary identity wants to accept the physical risk of hormone therapy, it's their choice.
Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available, and more importantly how physicians could ethically prescribe either male or female hormones to a patient who says they don't feel male nor female... ??? I'd be concerned for the patient's mental and physical health upon the administration of hormones. If one thinks they are not a female, but wants to take female hormones which will turn their body into a female's, or thinks they are not a male, but wants to take male hormones which will turn their body into a male's, how will this help anything?
Women have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason. You can't start adding a little estrogen here and there unless you're indifferent to probably experiencing Gynecomastia, infertility, stroke risk, cardiac risk, prostate issues, weight gain, low sex drive, and probably more than I can't remember. It's unfortunate that so many people seem to underestimate the seriousness of hormonal effects on the body and seem to think that this is something that can be played around with.
Hi there dear-
Yes I am non binary, yes I have a very complicated diagnosis, and yes I need hormones. On Testosterone I am manic, depressed, anxious, insane, on the edge of meltdown, driven, and extremely dysphoric.
On Estrogen and I have very little T left due to meds, on E I am calm, focussed, relaxed, brilliant (brain fires better), able to concentrate longer, and I feel physically great, and my dysphoria becomes relaxing and not overbearing.
So physically, that is the end on that one. Mentally, I am quite happy - real happy, sustained, for the first time in nearly a half century - and I am convinced that it is because of the estrogen receptors in my brain and elsewhere, and my God given design for living and health.
On the mental side, I am fluid. I can be male, female, anything in the middle, depending on social circumstances. My body is wired totally female sexually and perceptually. Yet I maintain a male GQ appearance, the only give away is my nails when I work. And I am comfortable with that. I am amuzed at the application of the male female extremes to myself, because they are false. And after 15 months of therapy and help at Susans, I am quite mentally healthy as a GQ transsexual. It is a totally honest place, genuine, authentic, without deception of any kind.
So the short answer is, it would be unethical not to treat me with hormones, it would be unethical to force FTE with its dire familial consequences in my case, and I prefer hormones to death.
I was fortunate to have a gender therapist and an endo who both have 40 years experience treating all forms of trans.
My suggestion would be that you get the best one you can buy, as the real danger of transition is self deception, which frankly can kill you. I have been down that road, I have escaped it, and i will not return to it, all because of denying the male components, and a huge desire for acceptance in the mtf community. The funny thing is that I have that acceptance now.
Too much about me here. I just hope it can help. Our cases are all different, complicated, and with different stakes involved.
Also my definition of transition is that I have a female body with no surgeries now and that is the full transition FOR ME. It cannot be argued that I am not mtf transexual without disqualifying every preop/no op in here, BUT it CAN be argued that I am not a complete woman soul living in a mans body, because I am not. I am a free neutral spirit. The body is a house I live in and enjoy, and I have the right to design it to where I feel comforable, happy, and have a safe nurtuting environment for me, all under the outerwear. Look beneath the surface clothing and you have - good luck with that one - . Unique beauty and quite the woman.
When I do present fully I am a knock-out androgyne GQ TS. I worked hard to get there.
I am happy. I am comfortable in my own body and socially. Isn't that the goal of all responsible therapy and endo treatment?
God Bless your journey Teeg, may it fulfill you needs and joys. And same to all here.
Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available, and more importantly how physicians could ethically prescribe either male or female hormones to a patient who says they don't feel male nor female... ??? I'd be concerned for the patient's mental and physical health upon the administration of hormones. If one thinks they are not a female, but wants to take female hormones which will turn their body into a female's, or thinks they are not a male, but wants to take male hormones which will turn their body into a male's, how will this help anything?
Women have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason. You can't start adding a little estrogen here and there unless you're indifferent to probably experiencing Gynecomastia, infertility, stroke risk, cardiac risk, prostate issues, weight gain, low sex drive, and probably more than I can't remember. It's unfortunate that so many people seem to underestimate the seriousness of hormonal effects on the body and seem to think that this is something that can be played around with.
A) Gender doesn't equal sex. There are only two basic options for sex, male or female, and when someone is born somewhere between the two they are quickly assigned one or the other. Many non-western cultures though, do in fact allow for more than two genders. In some older cultures those not fitting the binary were held in higher esteem.
B) All women have Testosterone and Estrogen. It is not ONLY Estrogen. Women have higher levels of estrogen and lower levels of testosterone than men. All men have Testosterone and Estrogen. It is not ONLY Testosterone. In fact, leave testosterone in the system long enough, and it will convert itself to estrogen. Men have higher levels of testosterone and lower levels of estrogen than women. Both estrogen and testosterone are produced by the gonads (testes in men, and ovaries in women) and the adrenal glands.
So, it's not so much the black and white picture you are presenting. For someone that doesn't feel either male or female, finding a hormonal balance between testosterone and estrogen that works for them is just as key as it would be for someone who identifies as male or female. For a non-binary person born and assigned male, that means lowering testosterone levels and raising estrogen levels. For a non-binary person born and assigned female, that means lowering estrogen levels and raising testosterone levels.
Because both estrogen and testosterone are required, and present in our bodies, no matter who you are. It's not estrogen is for females and testosterone is for males and that's it. It's a balance between the two hormones in the body, and it's that balance that differs by sex. Adjusting the balance to suit the person's needs allows for more than just male hormone balance or female hormone balance.
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 30, 2014, 12:48:21 AM
My case is a little different. Initially I was sure I was a woman.. Time and life experience have taught me different. It was my therapist who made the suggestion I was more genderqueer than MtF initially, a suggestion I scoffed at and denied at the time. A year later and I realised he'd been right.
I discovered similar. I think early in transition, people can be more adamant about their identity as the opposite they were assigned. And possibly I felt more male at the time because being female felt so wrong. Now that I don't have that dysphoria to deal with, I find that I identify more and more as an androgynous person than somebody fitting cleanly in the binary.
Quote from: Aisla on May 29, 2014, 11:45:51 PMThe intent here is to address the dysphoria that any tg person feels but in this case this dysphoria relates to an identity (emotional, physical, and spiritual) which is neither 100 per cent male nor 100 per cent female.
Again, apologies if anything I say seems insensitive, especially since I only just learned about non-binary identifications. But to me it sounds alarming. However, I don't think it's right for you say I'm attacking non-binary therapy when I'm only voicing thoughts and opinions, a right that if you expect others to afford to you, you should afford to others.
Quote from: Flan on May 30, 2014, 12:58:17 AM
Only concerning to the one who is color blind to the point where there is active denial of boxes (genders) that aren't in the colors "pink" and "blue" (male and female).
My main point was that if you open any biology book you'll see that there is only physically male and female. While you obviously cannot be both physically male and female at the same time, you also can't not be either. Presentation in terms of socially, emotionally, psychologically, can of course be more fluid than being anchored to male and female norms. It's important to differentiate.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 30, 2014, 09:19:08 AMAll women have Testosterone and Estrogen. It is not ONLY Estrogen. Women have higher levels of estrogen and lower levels of testosterone than men. All men have Testosterone and Estrogen. It is not ONLY Testosterone. In fact, leave testosterone in the system long enough, and it will convert itself to estrogen. Men have higher levels of testosterone and lower levels of estrogen than women.
So, it's not so much the black and white picture you are presenting. For someone that doesn't feel either male or female, finding a hormonal balance between testosterone and estrogen that works for them is just as key as it would be for someone who identifies as male or female.
You're splitting hairs here.
From a medical standpoint I personally don't think it's correct to prescribe hormones simply to eleviate what to me seem to be psychological issues. I'd be nervous prescribing a patient hormones that will turn their body into one of the two sexes when they say that don't identify as either, or especially one who wants to take female hormones, yet not complete surgery to actually be a female or visa versa? That's the whole point of HRT. HRT is a whole body change, that in my opinion shouldn't be used just because it makes someone feel mentally better, there are anti-psychotics for that. When you transition hormonally from having male hormones to female hormones, you destroy all aspects of your male body, likewise with female to male. To someone who says they either identify as BOTH, yet is indifferent to destroying the body of one they identify with, this again is nonsensical to me, not to mention all the health risks of what you try to describe as simply adding a little more estrogen and a little less testosterone. For example your body will consider (ironically what you consider to be balanced) this to be a hormonal imbalance and will exhibit numerous side effects, some very serious.
Quote from: FA on May 30, 2014, 09:41:26 AM
I discovered similar. I think early in transition, people can be more adamant about their identity as the opposite they were assigned. And possibly I felt more male at the time because being female felt so wrong. Now that I don't have that dysphoria to deal with, I find that I identify more and more as an androgynous person than somebody fitting cleanly in the binary.
In my opinion this is probably due to the fact that people have the choice to transition. People can choose whether to get SRS or not, start hormones or not, etc. When you're born, you don't choose which sex you're born as. This then is a catlyst for doubting if someone should continue transitioning, if SRS is worth it, if they're actually male or female, maybe they're not looking how they thought they'd look during their transition, etc. This is why personally I don't consider being genderqueer is valid, just a symptom of self-doubt and confusion. Someone posted the other day about how difficult it was to transition, but that in the end it was worth it. I think more mental health professionals should spend more time confirming that the patient, if indeed transgender, is mentally prepared and commited to the entire transition before they begin anything.
Quote from: teeg on May 30, 2014, 11:26:23 AM
You're splitting hairs here.
From a medical standpoint I personally don't think it's correct to prescribe hormones simply to eleviate what to me seem to be psychological issues. I'd be nervous prescribing a patient hormones that will turn their body into one of the two sexes when they say that don't identify as either, or especially one who wants to take female hormones, yet not complete surgery to actually be a female or visa versa? That's the whole point of HRT. HRT is a whole body change, that in my opinion shouldn't be used just because it makes someone feel mentally better, there are anti-psychotics for that. When you transition hormonally from having male hormones to female hormones, you destroy all aspects of your male body, likewise with female to male. To someone who says they either identify as BOTH, yet is indifferent to destroying the body of one they identify with, this again is nonsensical to me, not to mention all the health risks of what you try to describe as simply adding a little more estrogen and a little less testosterone. For example your body will consider (ironically what you consider to be balanced) this to be a hormonal imbalance and will exhibit numerous side effects, some very serious.
Unfortunately, MtF HRT, doesn't destroy all aspects of the male body. Actually it does very little compared to what Testosterone does. The biggest destruction it does is destroy one's fertility. Beyond that, you get a reduction in genital size. Beyond that all you get is changes tacked onto the male body, such as male fat distribution changing to a female distribution (and fat distribution is completely reversible). Breast development, which is irreversible without surgery, but thats hardly destroying the male body. Unless you start young, hips, shoulders, male facial structure won't change. That's why we have facial feminization surgery. Just about the only thing that can't be undone from HRT is the fertility.
Now then, why is it a mental disorder to be outside the binary but not to be trans* in the binary? You sound like so many on other forums that don't believe in ->-bleeped-<-. "Medical professionals are unethical and immoral for assisting us. We have a mental disorder and need to be treated of that and not have our bodies butchered." Etc. problem is the medical and psychiatric communities tried that. Tried treating it as a mental disorder and various different disorders. Tried anti-depressants, anti-psychotic, meds to control OCD... You name it, it's been tried. Didn't work. That is why HRT and SRS are the treatment options for us. They were the only thing shown to actually improve our quality of life and mental health. That includes non-binary peeps.
So tell me, why should someone not get the treatment they need to better their mental health, just because it's something you don't understand. There are people that argue exactly the same thing for trans* who are in the binary. If medical professionals regulated their treatment option on what some people don't understand, rather than what has been shown to actually work for us, we'd all be screwed. They give non-binary trans* HRT because it works for them, and improves quality of life and mental health just the same as it does for those in the binary. And there are plenty in the binary that opt out of SRS too.
I'd like to add it wasn't that long ago that they thought subjecting transgenders to shock therapy to cure us because they didn't believe we existed
Quote from: teeg on May 30, 2014, 11:26:23 AM
Quote from: FA on May 30, 2014, 09:41:26 AM
I discovered similar. I think early in transition, people can be more adamant about their identity as the opposite they were assigned. And possibly I felt more male at the time because being female felt so wrong. Now that I don't have that dysphoria to deal with, I find that I identify more and more as an androgynous person than somebody fitting cleanly in the binary.
In my opinion this is probably due to the fact that people have the choice to transition. People can choose whether to get SRS or not, start hormones or not, etc. When you're born, you don't choose which sex you're born as. This then is a catlyst for doubting if someone should continue transitioning, if SRS is worth it, if they're actually male or female, maybe they're not looking how they thought they'd look during their transition, etc. This is why personally I don't consider being genderqueer is valid, just a symptom of self-doubt and confusion. Someone posted the other day about how difficult it was to transition, but that in the end it was worth it. I think more mental health professionals should spend more time confirming that the patient, if indeed transgender, is mentally prepared and commited to the entire transition before they begin anything.
Hi teeg.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. But can I ask how long ago you transitioned? Because it's been my experience that a number of people post-transition for a long time feel similarly to Kelly and I. Not all, of course. And many of these people, including me, were pretty adamant about being part of the binary early in transition.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 30, 2014, 11:59:55 AM
Unfortunately, MtF HRT, doesn't destroy all aspects of the male body. Actually it does very little compared to what Testosterone does. The biggest destruction it does is destroy one's fertility. Beyond that, you get a reduction in genital size. Beyond that all you get is changes tacked onto the male body, such as male fat distribution changing to a female distribution (and fat distribution is completely reversible). Breast development, which is irreversible without surgery, but thats hardly destroying the male body. Unless you start young, hips, shoulders, male facial structure won't change. That's why we have facial feminization surgery. Just about the only thing that can't be undone from HRT is the fertility.
Now then, why is it a mental disorder to be outside the binary but not to be trans* in the binary? You sound like so many on other forums that don't believe in ->-bleeped-<-. "Medical professionals are unethical and immoral for assisting us. We have a mental disorder and need to be treated of that and not have our bodies butchered." Etc. problem is the medical and psychiatric communities tried that. Tried treating it as a mental disorder and various different disorders. Tried anti-depressants, anti-psychotic, meds to control OCD... You name it, it's been tried. Didn't work. That is why HRT and SRS are the treatment options for us. They were the only thing shown to actually improve our quality of life and mental health. That includes non-binary peeps.
So tell me, why should someone not get the treatment they need to better their mental health, just because it's something you don't understand. There are people that argue exactly the same thing for trans* who are in the binary. If medical professionals regulated their treatment option on what some people don't understand, rather than what has been shown to actually work for us, we'd all be screwed. They give non-binary trans* HRT because it works for them, and improves quality of life and mental health just the same as it does for those in the binary. And there are plenty in the binary that opt out of SRS too.
You're splitting hairs again. After a long enough time HRT can make the body pretty unrecognizable from the sex it was before, at least it has for mine. YMMV I guess. And again, I don't think the point of HRT is to go back and forth between male and female hormones.
I'm not saying being outside the binary definition in terms of presentation is a mental disorder at all. I'm just simply saying that from my understanding I don't think it's a valid way to define one's self either. Do people think they're both man and woman or are they confused on whether they're a man or a woman?
Being transgender (the sex of the brain being mismatched from the sex of the body) has been studied and scientifically proven as a real and legitimate condition. I don't think it's at all fair to compare someone who is transgender to someone who is non-binary -- they're different.
No one should be denied treatment for a valid condition. But at the end of the day people are going to do what they want to do. However, everything to me about this screams out confusion and inadequate mental health analysis. Even the description of the classification itself does.
Quote from: stephaniec on May 30, 2014, 12:11:42 PM
I'd like to add it wasn't that long ago that they thought subjecting transgenders to shock therapy to cure us because they didn't believe we existed
It also wasn't that long ago that they used to lobotomize people for the simplest of mental conditions. It's pretty embarassing how archaic some of the, "treatment" used to be long ago. :-\
Quote from: FA on May 30, 2014, 12:35:59 PMHi teeg.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. But can I ask how long ago you transitioned? Because it's been my experience that a number of people post-transition for a long time feel similarly to Kelly and I. Not all, of course. And many of these people, including me, were pretty adamant about being part of the binary early in transition.
I'm 23. I started therapy when I was 17, that lasted for more than a year and I began HRT at almost 19. Personally, I always knew I was a woman, but was unsure of how or if I could even fix my body. If anything my feelings about wanting to fully transition and being completely female have got even stronger.
But that's the thing... Who are you to tell another person they are completely mistaken about themselves and their identity? To tell them that you, without meeting them, know their mind and identity better than they do. Just because you or anyone really doesn't understand it, doesn't mean it's not real or valid. Intersex conditions exist, physically. Born outside the binary, neither accurately male or female. This is corrected, with an assignment being made, sometimes arbitrarily, sometimes based on which correction would be easiest to perform, or which is thought to have the best likelihood of success. You can be caught, physically been the two sexes, or be both. It is not in the least bit unreasonable to apply the same stuck outside the binary condition to ones brain and identity.
Also, yes you are unrecognizeable as your birth gender. But if you stopped taking hormones and went back to living as male, in the same number of years you'd be saying the samething ((Barring facial feminization surgery of course)) Because fat distribution would return to that of male distribution. Gone would be the softness of the face, the curves. Starting at 17 you may have a bit of widening of the hips but that really wouldn't be enough to peg you female on its own. (growth plates will be nearing the end of it run and starting to harden and fuse, so you'd get some, but not a lot). Breast would remain. Essentially, you'd be transitioning in reverse. And give the same timeframe will have the same level of results.
Hrt isn't just about leading to SRS and full transitions. It purpose first and foremost is to ease mental turmoil and give the person wellbeing again. For depression you give anti-depressants, for gender dysphoria (regardless if they are trans, genderqueer, non-conforming, etc.) You give hrt. This is why the medical and psychiatric communities give them to those that fall outside the binary. Transsexual/transgender isn't the diagnosis being made. Gender dysphoria is, so whether you agree that non-conforming, non-binary, etc., should be included under transgender or not, it still is a form of gender dysphoria, and as long as hrt shows a betterment of lives and wellness same as with binary trans*, it will continue to be given, for the same reasons.
Oh, I get it now :). Being non-binary is kinda lifestyle choice!
It is very ironic but a couple of months ago I would have agreed with such statememt. I was thinking that non-binaries just wanna be very special kind of transgender and thus come up with all those fancy subcategories and names. As others posters, I was similarly an admant believer of MtF transitions until I realised that something is wrong and things are not happening the way they "should" according to binary rules.
And I have to admit that there types of non-binary whicj I struggle to comprehend even now, because my brain works otherwise. Being androgyne is perhaps the simpliest way, or I am just a simpleton andro - I perceive myself as masculine female who does not wish to give up the residue of parts of previous masculine identity. Or simply cant. Or value some other being too much to purge him because rules require so. Or maybe that is an act of rebellion :). Dunno.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 30, 2014, 01:58:59 PM
But that's the thing... Who are you to tell another person they are completely mistaken about themselves and their identity? To tell them that you, without meeting them, know their mind and identity better than they do. Just because you or anyone really doesn't understand it, doesn't mean it's not real or valid. Intersex conditions exist, physically. Born outside the binary, neither accurately male or female. This is corrected, with an assignment being made, sometimes arbitrarily, sometimes based on which correction would be easiest to perform, or which is thought to have the best likelihood of success. You can be caught, physically been the two sexes, or be both. It is not in the least bit unreasonable to apply the same stuck outside the binary condition to ones brain and identity.
Also, yes you are unrecognizeable as your birth gender. But if you stopped taking hormones and went back to living as male, in the same number of years you'd be saying the samething ((Barring facial feminization surgery of course)) Because fat distribution would return to that of male distribution. Gone would be the softness of the face, the curves. Starting at 17 you may have a bit of widening of the hips but that really wouldn't be enough to peg you female on its own. (growth plates will be nearing the end of it run and starting to harden and fuse, so you'd get some, but not a lot). Breast would remain. Essentially, you'd be transitioning in reverse. And give the same timeframe will have the same level of results.
Hrt isn't just about leading to SRS and full transitions. It purpose first and foremost is to ease mental turmoil and give the person wellbeing again. For depression you give anti-depressants, for gender dysphoria (regardless if they are trans, genderqueer, non-conforming, etc.) You give hrt. This is why the medical and psychiatric communities give them to those that fall outside the binary. Transsexual/transgender isn't the diagnosis being made. Gender dysphoria is, so whether you agree that non-conforming, non-binary, etc., should be included under transgender or not, it still is a form of gender dysphoria, and as long as hrt shows a betterment of lives and wellness same as with binary trans*, it will continue to be given, for the same reasons.
Thank you for this.
When you feel alone in the trans world because you feel unique, it is not very fun. When you fear you wont get desperately needed hormones because you are outside the standards of care, you have no idea where that can take you in terms of mental pain. And then you find out you are not alone, that there are others like you (for me Aisla walks a similar path though there are significant variants), and that we are still authentic, genuine, caring people who are born with a creative set of conditions. And I got lucky with a good gender therapist that can think outside the box.
Also, I am in no way confused, not now. I know exactly who I am, how my gender reacts, and what I want. There was a time when I was but it was based on distortion of the truth of my core gender.
Non binary can be very complicated. Understanding anyone that is in a different set of conditions, build, life- can be really hard as we base our judgements largely on our own experiences, and confusion can quickly come into play.... as well as frustration and impatience.
For the OP, it will be up to her and her shrink where her treatment leads.
Enjoy all. Probably off forum for the weekend, living a dream. :)
"Again, apologies if anything I say seems insensitive, especially since I only just learned about non-binary identifications. But to me it sounds alarming. However, I don't think it's right for you say I'm attacking non-binary therapy when I'm only voicing thoughts and opinions, a right that if you expect others to afford to you, you should afford to others."teeg
Teeg
Thank you for your apology and I certainly appreciate it. I also appreciate the support and in some cases shared experiences and perspectives of satin joy, FA, Emily, Colleen, Flan, Stephanie and Colleen. If I appear to have been overly sensitive perhaps my narrative may help both myself and other non binaries and the hurt we may have felt from your post.
For many, many years I felt broken and displaced, perhaps just someone with a fetish (cross dressing and a sense or dream that I should have been female). The first breakthrough was when I was diagnosed tg and commenced hrt. Then for the first time I felt right, present and emotionally authentic. Apart from deliberately androgyne ffs and hair removal I found that the need to completely turn away from what folk termed or saw as masculine behaviours or masculine attributes because of their discomfort (not mine), caused me dissonance and was a source of inauthenticity. This accelerated as hrt and physical change increased.
My endo saw my confusion and my discomfort. If I clearly needed hrt for emotional comfort and authenticity but didn't want or seek another binary outcome he suggested a simple action. Return to lower dose hrt and work with him to safely test the benefit or negatives arising from varying dosages. I was assured that this was standard therapy not just with hrt but with most medications as ymmv. Needless to say I did my own research and consulted with others on its efficacy and safety. Along the way I learned that hrt therapy was commonly used in treating menopause, prostate cancer, PCOS etc etc and in each case dosage was determined with the patient depending upon its net physical and psychological benefit.
At this point I had found a therapy which really helped. After a bilateral breast reduction which I could have avoided if I hadn't started on a transition regimen, I have felt happy, fully present, authentic and validated. The only residual discomfort was my admittedly irrational, but to me quite real, need to find an appropriate taxonomy or descriptor and explanation as to why I was so weird, indeed queer! Just why I needed to find and own a label wasn't clear but nevertheless I needed one.
Following this my education on gender, brain science, sociology commenced. Through conversation with many on Susans, many leaders in endocrinology, feminist writers, gender theorists and myself I have concluded that I am non binary - not in a reproductive sense, but in every other way. I need to experience and give voice to the broadest range of human qualities that I can find and learn to express, I need to present in a manner consistent with, or at least not detracting from or inconsistent with this. This is simply a social requirement or safety requirement, as presenting in one binary (and here males don't have much flexibility or scope) and displaying nuanced behavior, expression, emotion, thought process or leadership quality commonly associated with the opposite binary is often not a smart thing to do. My experience is that this level of 'queer ness' often results in hostility, discrimination and ridicule. This is rarely the case when one is more clearly androgynous or gender fluid in presentation.
Teeg, like Ativan, Bornstein, Mandonlym etc and many, many others I identify and find my most powerful expression as non binary. This has been a hard, difficult and enormously confusing and challenging journey taken over many, many years. At each point - from my days as an infant through to married partner with grown children I have struggled to understand and to identify myself. Now that I have found myself I consider myself to have been truly blessed. I am non binary and very, very proud of it - apart from this I really dont mind if I am sub labelled as gender queer, gender fluid, androgynous, neutrois etc. Low dose hrt has proved to be a powerful, appropriate and extremely effective therapy.
Teeg I hope that the above can in some way explain my negative response to your post. Very early on in my life I learned that to comment critically on another's experience is problematic - not just because of apparent disrespect but because until you have walked in their shoes on the same path in the same direction in identical circumstance etc you can't possibly understand or empathise. Your quick reaction to to the possibility that hrt can legitimately and safely be used to great benefit reminded me of when I first saw my mother dealing with severe depression and treatment with what appeared outlandish therapy - ECT. Knowing that shock therapy was being used to induce convulsions to replicate convulsions in epileptics just because epileptics had never been seen to suffer from depression seemed ridiculous and indeed barbaric to me. But over time I saw that with varying shocks, length of treatment etc that some folk did indeed benefit, others needed other therapy. This I think is what is going on with the use of low dose hrt. Hormones are incredibly important chemicals which drive us physically and emotionally, they seem to re map the brain, they certainly control many physical characteristics etc. we have now learned that used responsibly that they can be used with enormous benefit in treating a wide range of gender dysphoric folk.
My hope is that more therapists and more fellow travellers learn of, gain access to and benefit from this responsible, safe and powerful therapy.
Safe travels
Aisla
Powerful, as usual, Aisla. And I personally need to be less sensitive, sorry Teeg if this has turned emotional.
Long, tough road. Sorry about that. I trigger too easily, I need to read slower and understand faster.
Appologies to the forum for triggering.
Long day.
You know what, peoples, teeg is entitled to her opinion.. However out of touch with reality it might be.
Let's just be thankful that the medical community doesn't agree with her and that non-binary types are able to access approproiate treatment.
Kelly
I agree and do try to avoid being disrespectful and attacking the person rather than the opinion. I try to seek and welcome other opinion as it helps me to understand another perspective and it presents an opportunity to educate myself and others.
Aisla