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Genderqueer in Australia.

Started by Freyjja, May 27, 2014, 05:11:40 PM

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stephaniec

I'd like to add it wasn't that long ago that they thought subjecting transgenders to shock therapy to cure us because they didn't believe we existed
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Nero

Quote from: teeg on May 30, 2014, 11:26:23 AM

Quote from: FA on May 30, 2014, 09:41:26 AM
I discovered similar. I think early in transition, people can be more adamant about their identity as the opposite they were assigned. And possibly I felt more male at the time because being female felt so wrong. Now that I don't have that dysphoria to deal with, I find that I identify more and more as an androgynous person than somebody fitting cleanly in the binary.
In my opinion this is probably due to the fact that people have the choice to transition. People can choose whether to get SRS or not, start hormones or not, etc. When you're born, you don't choose which sex you're born as. This then is a catlyst for doubting if someone should continue transitioning, if SRS is worth it, if they're actually male or female, maybe they're not looking how they thought they'd look during their transition, etc. This is why personally I don't consider being genderqueer is valid, just a symptom of self-doubt and confusion. Someone posted the other day about how difficult it was to transition, but that in the end it was worth it. I think more mental health professionals should spend more time confirming that the patient, if indeed transgender, is mentally prepared and commited to the entire transition before they begin anything.

Hi teeg.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. But can I ask how long ago you transitioned? Because it's been my experience that a number of people post-transition for a long time feel similarly to Kelly and I. Not all, of course. And many of these people, including me, were pretty adamant about being part of the binary early in transition.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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teeg

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 30, 2014, 11:59:55 AM
Unfortunately, MtF HRT, doesn't destroy all aspects of the male body.  Actually it does very little compared to what Testosterone does.  The biggest destruction it does is destroy one's fertility.  Beyond that, you get a reduction in genital size.  Beyond that all you get is changes tacked onto the male body, such as male fat distribution changing to a female distribution (and fat distribution is completely reversible).  Breast development, which is irreversible without surgery, but thats hardly destroying the male body.  Unless you start young, hips, shoulders, male facial structure won't change.  That's why we have facial feminization surgery.  Just about the only thing that can't be undone from HRT is the fertility.

Now then, why is it a mental disorder to be outside the binary but not to be trans* in the binary?  You sound like so many on other forums that don't believe in ->-bleeped-<-.  "Medical professionals are unethical and immoral for assisting us.  We have a mental disorder and need to be treated of that and not have our bodies butchered." Etc.  problem is the medical and psychiatric communities tried that.  Tried treating it as a mental disorder and various different disorders.  Tried anti-depressants, anti-psychotic, meds to control OCD... You name it, it's been tried.  Didn't work.  That is why HRT and SRS are the treatment options for us.  They were the only thing shown to actually improve our quality of life and mental health.  That includes non-binary peeps. 

So tell me, why should someone not get the treatment they need to better their mental health, just because it's something you don't understand.  There are people that argue exactly the same thing for trans* who are in the binary.  If medical professionals regulated their treatment option on what some people don't understand, rather than what has been shown to actually work for us, we'd all be screwed.  They give non-binary trans* HRT because it works for them, and improves quality of life and mental health just the same as it does for those in the binary.  And there are plenty in the binary that opt out of SRS too.
You're splitting hairs again. After a long enough time HRT can make the body pretty unrecognizable from the sex it was before, at least it has for mine. YMMV I guess. And again, I don't think the point of HRT is to go back and forth between male and female hormones.

I'm not saying being outside the binary definition in terms of presentation is a mental disorder at all. I'm just simply saying that from my understanding I don't think it's a valid way to define one's self either. Do people think they're both man and woman or are they confused on whether they're a man or a woman?

Being transgender (the sex of the brain being mismatched from the sex of the body) has been studied and scientifically proven as a real and legitimate condition. I don't think it's at all fair to compare someone who is transgender to someone who is non-binary -- they're different.

No one should be denied treatment for a valid condition. But at the end of the day people are going to do what they want to do. However, everything to me about this screams out confusion and inadequate mental health analysis. Even the description of the classification itself does.

Quote from: stephaniec on May 30, 2014, 12:11:42 PM
I'd like to add it wasn't that long ago that they thought subjecting transgenders to shock therapy to cure us because they didn't believe we existed
It also wasn't that long ago that they used to lobotomize people for the simplest of mental conditions. It's pretty embarassing how archaic some of the, "treatment" used to be long ago. :-\

Quote from: FA on May 30, 2014, 12:35:59 PMHi teeg.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. But can I ask how long ago you transitioned? Because it's been my experience that a number of people post-transition for a long time feel similarly to Kelly and I. Not all, of course. And many of these people, including me, were pretty adamant about being part of the binary early in transition.
I'm 23. I started therapy when I was 17, that lasted for more than a year and I began HRT at almost 19. Personally, I always knew I was a woman, but was unsure of how or if I could even fix my body. If anything my feelings about wanting to fully transition and being completely female have got even stronger.
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Colleen♡Callie

But that's the thing... Who are you to tell another person they are completely mistaken about themselves and their identity?  To tell them that you, without meeting them, know their mind and identity better than they do.  Just because you or anyone really doesn't understand it, doesn't mean it's not real or valid.  Intersex conditions exist, physically.  Born outside the binary, neither accurately male or female.  This is corrected, with an assignment being made, sometimes arbitrarily, sometimes based on which correction would be easiest to perform, or which is thought to have the best likelihood of success.  You can be caught, physically been the two sexes, or be both.  It is not in the least bit unreasonable to apply the same stuck outside the binary condition to ones brain and identity.

Also, yes you are unrecognizeable as your birth gender.  But if you stopped taking hormones and went back to living as male, in the same number of years you'd be saying the samething ((Barring facial feminization surgery of course))  Because fat distribution would return to that of male distribution.  Gone would be the softness of the face, the curves.  Starting at 17 you may have a bit of widening of the hips but that really wouldn't be enough to peg you female on its own.  (growth plates will be nearing the end of it run and starting to harden and fuse, so you'd get some, but not a lot).  Breast would remain.  Essentially, you'd be transitioning in reverse.  And give the same timeframe will have the same level of results.

Hrt isn't just about leading to SRS and full transitions.  It purpose first and foremost is to ease mental turmoil and give the person wellbeing again.  For depression you give anti-depressants, for gender dysphoria (regardless if they are trans, genderqueer, non-conforming, etc.) You give hrt.  This is why the medical and psychiatric communities give them to those that fall outside the binary.  Transsexual/transgender isn't the diagnosis being made.  Gender dysphoria is, so whether you agree that non-conforming, non-binary, etc., should be included under transgender or not, it still is a form of gender dysphoria, and as long as hrt shows a betterment of lives and wellness same as with binary trans*, it will continue to be given, for the same reasons. 
"Tell my tale to those who ask.  Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.  The rest is silence." - Dinobot



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Sammy

#24
Oh, I get it now :). Being non-binary is kinda lifestyle choice!

It is very ironic but a couple of months ago I would have agreed with such statememt. I was thinking that non-binaries just wanna be very special kind of transgender and thus come up with all those fancy subcategories and names. As others posters, I was similarly an admant believer of MtF transitions until I realised that something is wrong and things are not happening the way they "should" according to binary rules.
And I have to admit that there types of non-binary whicj I struggle to comprehend even now, because my brain works otherwise. Being androgyne is perhaps the simpliest way, or I am just a simpleton andro - I perceive myself as masculine female who does not wish to give up the residue of parts of previous masculine identity. Or simply cant. Or value some other being too much to purge him because rules require so. Or maybe that is an act of rebellion :). Dunno.
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Satinjoy

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 30, 2014, 01:58:59 PM
But that's the thing... Who are you to tell another person they are completely mistaken about themselves and their identity?  To tell them that you, without meeting them, know their mind and identity better than they do.  Just because you or anyone really doesn't understand it, doesn't mean it's not real or valid.  Intersex conditions exist, physically.  Born outside the binary, neither accurately male or female.  This is corrected, with an assignment being made, sometimes arbitrarily, sometimes based on which correction would be easiest to perform, or which is thought to have the best likelihood of success.  You can be caught, physically been the two sexes, or be both.  It is not in the least bit unreasonable to apply the same stuck outside the binary condition to ones brain and identity.

Also, yes you are unrecognizeable as your birth gender.  But if you stopped taking hormones and went back to living as male, in the same number of years you'd be saying the samething ((Barring facial feminization surgery of course))  Because fat distribution would return to that of male distribution.  Gone would be the softness of the face, the curves.  Starting at 17 you may have a bit of widening of the hips but that really wouldn't be enough to peg you female on its own.  (growth plates will be nearing the end of it run and starting to harden and fuse, so you'd get some, but not a lot).  Breast would remain.  Essentially, you'd be transitioning in reverse.  And give the same timeframe will have the same level of results.

Hrt isn't just about leading to SRS and full transitions.  It purpose first and foremost is to ease mental turmoil and give the person wellbeing again.  For depression you give anti-depressants, for gender dysphoria (regardless if they are trans, genderqueer, non-conforming, etc.) You give hrt.  This is why the medical and psychiatric communities give them to those that fall outside the binary.  Transsexual/transgender isn't the diagnosis being made.  Gender dysphoria is, so whether you agree that non-conforming, non-binary, etc., should be included under transgender or not, it still is a form of gender dysphoria, and as long as hrt shows a betterment of lives and wellness same as with binary trans*, it will continue to be given, for the same reasons.

Thank you for this.

When you feel alone in the trans world because you feel unique, it is not very fun.  When you fear you wont get desperately needed hormones because you are outside the standards of care, you have no idea where that can take you in terms of mental pain.  And then you find out you are not alone, that there are others like you (for me Aisla walks a similar path though there are significant variants), and that we are still authentic, genuine, caring people who are born with a creative set of conditions.  And I got lucky with a good gender therapist that can think outside the box.

Also, I am in no way confused, not now.  I know exactly who I am, how my gender reacts, and what I want. There was a time when I was but it was based on distortion of the truth of my core gender.

Non binary can be very complicated.  Understanding anyone that is in a different set of conditions, build, life- can be really hard as we base our judgements largely on our own experiences, and confusion can quickly come into play.... as well as frustration and impatience.

For the OP, it will be up to her and her shrink where her treatment leads.

Enjoy all.  Probably off forum for the weekend, living a dream.  :)
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
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helen2010

"Again, apologies if anything I say seems insensitive, especially since I only just learned about non-binary identifications. But to me it sounds alarming. However, I don't think it's right for you say I'm attacking non-binary therapy when I'm only voicing thoughts and opinions, a right that if you expect others to afford to you, you should afford to others."teeg

Teeg

Thank you for your apology and I certainly appreciate it.   I also appreciate the support and in some cases shared experiences and perspectives of satin joy, FA, Emily, Colleen, Flan, Stephanie and Colleen.  If I appear to have been overly sensitive perhaps my narrative may help both myself and other non binaries and the hurt we may have felt from your post.

For many, many years I felt broken and displaced, perhaps just someone with a fetish (cross dressing and a sense or dream that I should have been female).   The first breakthrough was when I was diagnosed tg and commenced hrt.  Then for the first time I felt right, present and emotionally authentic.  Apart from deliberately androgyne ffs and hair removal I found that the need to completely turn away from what folk termed or saw as masculine behaviours or masculine attributes because of their discomfort (not mine), caused me dissonance and was a source of inauthenticity.  This accelerated as hrt and physical change increased.

My endo saw my confusion and my discomfort.   If I clearly needed hrt for emotional comfort and authenticity but didn't want or seek another binary outcome he suggested a simple action.  Return to lower dose hrt and work with him to safely test the benefit or negatives arising from varying dosages.   I was assured that this was standard therapy not just with hrt but with most medications as ymmv.  Needless to say I did my own research and consulted with others on its efficacy and safety.  Along the way I learned that hrt therapy was commonly used in treating menopause, prostate cancer, PCOS etc etc and in each case dosage was determined with the patient depending upon its net physical and psychological benefit.

At this point I had found a therapy which really helped.  After a bilateral breast reduction which I could have avoided if I hadn't started on a transition regimen, I have felt happy, fully present, authentic and validated.  The only residual discomfort was my admittedly irrational, but to me quite real, need to find an appropriate taxonomy or descriptor and explanation as to why I was so weird, indeed queer!   Just why I needed to find and own a label wasn't clear but nevertheless I needed one.

Following this my education on gender, brain science, sociology commenced.   Through conversation with many on Susans, many leaders in endocrinology, feminist writers, gender theorists and myself I have concluded that I am non binary - not in a reproductive sense, but in every other way.  I need to experience and give voice to the broadest range of human qualities that I can find and learn to express,  I need to present in a manner consistent with, or at least not detracting from or inconsistent with this. This is simply a social requirement or safety requirement, as presenting in one binary (and here males don't have much flexibility or scope) and displaying nuanced behavior, expression, emotion, thought process or leadership quality commonly associated with the opposite binary is often not a smart thing to do.  My experience is that this level of 'queer ness' often results in hostility, discrimination and ridicule.   This is rarely the case when one is more clearly androgynous or gender fluid in presentation.

Teeg,  like Ativan, Bornstein, Mandonlym etc  and many, many others I identify and find my most powerful expression as non binary.   This has been a hard, difficult and enormously confusing and challenging journey taken over many, many years.  At each point - from my days as an infant through to married partner with grown children I have struggled to understand and to identify myself.   Now that I have found myself I consider myself to have been truly blessed.   I am non binary and very, very proud of it - apart from this I really dont mind if I am sub labelled as gender queer, gender fluid, androgynous, neutrois etc.  Low dose hrt has proved to be a powerful, appropriate and extremely effective therapy.

Teeg I hope that the above can in some way explain my negative response to your post.   Very early on in my life I learned that to comment critically on another's experience is problematic - not just because of apparent disrespect but because until you have walked in their shoes on the same path in the same direction in identical circumstance etc you can't possibly understand or empathise.   Your quick reaction to to the possibility that hrt can legitimately and safely be used to great benefit reminded me of when I first saw my mother dealing with severe depression and treatment with what appeared outlandish therapy - ECT.  Knowing that shock therapy was being used to induce convulsions to replicate convulsions in epileptics just because epileptics had never been seen to suffer from depression seemed ridiculous and indeed barbaric to me. But over time I saw that with varying shocks, length of treatment etc that some folk did indeed benefit, others needed other therapy.   This I think is what is going on with the use of low dose hrt.   Hormones are incredibly important chemicals which drive us physically and emotionally, they seem to re map the brain, they certainly control many physical characteristics etc. we have now learned that used responsibly that they can be used with enormous benefit in treating a wide range of gender dysphoric folk.

My hope is that more therapists and more fellow travellers learn of, gain access to and benefit from this responsible, safe and powerful therapy.

Safe travels

Aisla

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Satinjoy

Powerful, as usual, Aisla.   And I personally need to be less sensitive, sorry Teeg if this has turned emotional.

Long, tough road.  Sorry about that.  I trigger too easily, I need to read slower and understand faster.

Appologies to the forum for triggering.

Long day.

Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
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kelly_aus

You know what, peoples, teeg is entitled to her opinion.. However out of touch with reality it might be.

Let's just be thankful that the medical community doesn't agree with her and that non-binary types are able to access approproiate treatment.
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helen2010

Kelly

I agree and do try to avoid being disrespectful and attacking the person rather than the opinion.   I try to seek and welcome other opinion as it helps me to understand another perspective and it presents  an opportunity to educate myself and others.

Aisla
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