How can passing mean anything other than being read as sis? If you're passing, then you're actually "stealth" ???
More so than looks you have a history. Whether you pass or not you always have the option to divulge your history or not. (Well, in this day and age you might not be in control of that) Plenty are passable, some are totally out about being trans, others take an "it is what it is" philosophy of neither broadcasting or denying, and then there are those that coverup or hide the past as completely as they possible can. (Which is nearly impossible these days) Some further granularize this into "Stealth" and "Deep Stealth".
Best way it was described to me is this, stealth means no one knows that you are transgender, you basically did everything possible to destroy/eliminate your old life including all paper and electric trails. Passing just means that your appearance and voice are that of your target gender.
Honestly if you are looking to go stealth you better start up a rather big fire and start tossing stuff in, and also get some forged documents in your new name
Quote from: kariann330 on July 28, 2014, 06:10:46 PM
Honestly if you are looking to go stealth you better start up a rather big fire and start tossing stuff in, and also get some forged documents in your new name
It may be a lot easier to be trans these days compared to the 70's. However it is far far harder to be totally stealth. Unless maybe if you start when you are still in grade school... maybe. (Too much newspaper coverage). Make it pre-K
To me, passing means that people cannot tell my history until I inform them. In other words, I have some control over when they find out that I'm trans.
Non-passing means they can tell by looking at me.
Stealth means nobody knows I'm trans, so word can't spread. For someone who transitioned "in place" it's basically impossible.
Does that make sense?
Quote from: suzifrommd on July 28, 2014, 07:22:12 PM
To me, passing means that people cannot tell my history until I inform them. In other words, I have some control over when they find out that I'm trans.
Non-passing means they can tell by looking at me.
Stealth means nobody knows I'm trans, so word can't spread. For someone who transitioned "in place" it's basically impossible.
Does that make sense?
I transitioning in place, absolutely impossible
Yeah, as another who transitioned in place... passing 100% of the time might mean I'm "temporarily stealth," but as soon as someone talks to somebody who knew me before, runs my Social Security number, etc. my past could come out. I'm not *really* stealth b/c I haven't broken ties to that past.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on July 28, 2014, 07:42:17 PM
Yeah, as another who transitioned in place... passing 100% of the time might mean I'm "temporarily stealth," but as soon as someone talks to somebody who knew me before, runs my Social Security number, etc. my past could come out. I'm not *really* stealth b/c I haven't broken ties to that past.
True. I'm in the same boat. I still live in the same town that I always have. Yeah, there's a chance I could run into some of the people that knew me from before. (I'm not counting family in that group) But, I don't really care at this point. Sure, if I had the money to move somewhere else I would do it. Not so much to "sever ties" but to move some place that isn't as dull as hell. That would be my only real motivation for moving.
Basically what everyone said, but stealth is impossible. It's been a dream of mine since forever, a dream I should give up on but won't. My fave movies are (A) GATTACA (B) A History of Violence , and (C)The Talented Mr. Ripley. All these movies have a common theme: they are all centered around characters who want to destroy their past and start anew. In the first two, the characters are found out, but in the end, their dreams are achieved. Or it works out. In the last one, Ripley kills anyone and everyone that finds out.
"Don't you just take the past and put it in a room in a basement and lock the door and never go in there? That's what I do, And then you meet someone special and all you want to do is to toss them the key and say; open up, step inside, but you can't, because it's dark, There's demons and if anybody saw how ugly it is. I keep wanting to do that, fling the door open, just let light in and clean everything out. But I can't."
Tom: I thought I killed Joey. I buried him in the desert.
Edie: Are you crazy? Are you like some multiple-personality schizoid? What? How did you pick our name?
Tom: It was available.
But the best, is GATTACA...
"It's funny, you work so hard, you do everything you can to get away from a place, and when you finally get your chance to leave, you find a reason to stay."
In that film, he accepts himself and finds someone to love. I know these are all male characters, but, hey, fact is I'm pheotypically male. For now. In ayear I hope to be genetically and phenotypically female, finally. After 32 years. There is a book though that is my favorite book and there is no way the author did not rely heavily on the trans narrative--Half-life: a Novel. it's all about a woman who desires a type of surgery to become herself in a world thatfully accepts her but that isn'tenough as her body dysphoria is overwhelming. She has two heads.
"The half life of Uranium 238: 768 million years. The half-life of myself: 30." This book is like my bible.
Edit: I haven't transitioned in place. I only moved 35 miles away but I live in the most densely populated area in the country, and second in the world. I haven't seen anyone I know/knew once, except once when I chose too. Then I chose not to do it ever again.
Laura Squirrel : Yeah, I hear you. :) I should have added that I'm content with this state of affairs, and like you, I'd only move if there were compelling other reasons to do so. (And even if I did, I'm not willing to hide from my family and friends and start over completely!) Besides, people's memories are oddly short; I know a bunch of cashiers and so on figured out what was going on, but they've clearly forgotten by now. It stops being "news" after a while.
Passing and stealth applies both to pre and post operative state. I speak from my experience and I am pre. To me, passing means not being viewed as male in either looks or voice, but upon closer inspection the 'inspector' begins to question. Stealth, to me, means passing so convincingly that you can literally have a physical examination by a doctor up to the groin area and he wont know. Stealth means you are being intimate with a man and can strip down to your panties and he does not know or even suspicions. You have an eternal menstrual period in these cases. Stealth means that your entire life stemming back to childhood is exclusively female. Your entire family body knows you only as a female. Your sisters, brother, mother and father may know the history but anyone beyond them knows you only as female. Stealth means your first job was as yourself, a girl. Your entire job history is that of a girl. Your college records are female. Your physical presence is that of a normal woman. Your voice, while slightly deep, is unquestionably female. You marry and raise a son (his of course) and attend normal functions, have friends, etc. You have a loving wonderful family. You have joined a womens church group. You are now 'deep' into stealth. No one knows that your bits are slightly different from theirs. You are regarded as someone whose opinion holds great power in your circle. And your husband loves you and lives to make you happy because he sees and knows your life. Then at night you see reports on other 'girls' who come out and when you lay in your bed at night almost asleep, you have a slight wonder what would happen if my neighbor found out (she's nasty and gossipy). What if the girls in my group found out? What if my boss knew? And although I sat on the board when lgbt rights were being discussed for our company policy, I listened to the nasty jokes and wanted to say something -- but could not. What if my son knew? When you are asking yourself these questions, you are 'stealth'. You are deep deep stealth. You are not just 'passing'. Stealth means you are now a female with a deep secret.
Yes, it may mean something entirely different to someone else, but the above is what it means to me and to most of the few other girls I know. Nowadays, if someone were to find out, I would not deny it. In an odd way, I think it may feel liberating somehow. On what level, I do not know. I hope this helps in answering your question.
Quote from: herekitten on July 28, 2014, 09:14:23 PM
Passing and stealth applies both to pre and post operative state. I speak from my experience and I am pre. To me, passing means not being viewed as male in either looks or voice, but upon closer inspection the 'inspector' begins to question. Stealth, to me, means passing so convincingly that you can literally have a physical examination by a doctor up to the groin area and he wont know. Stealth means you are being intimate with a man and can strip down to your panties and he does not know or even suspicions. You have an eternal menstrual period in these cases. Stealth means that your entire life stemming back to childhood is exclusively female. Your entire family body knows you only as a female. Your sisters, brother, mother and father may know the history but anyone beyond them knows you only as female. Stealth means your first job was as yourself, a girl. Your entire job history is that of a girl. Your college records are female. Your physical presence is that of a normal woman. Your voice, while slightly deep, is unquestionably female. You marry and raise a son (his of course) and attend normal functions, have friends, etc. You have a loving wonderful family. You have joined a womens church group. You are now 'deep' into stealth. No one knows that your bits are slightly different from theirs. You are regarded as someone whose opinion holds great power in your circle. And your husband loves you and lives to make you happy because he sees and knows your life. Then at night you see reports on other 'girls' who come out and when you lay in your bed at night almost asleep, you have a slight wonder what would happen if my neighbor found out (she's nasty and gossipy). What if the girls in my group found out? What if my boss knew? And although I sat on the board when lgbt rights were being discussed for our company policy, I listened to the nasty jokes and wanted to say something -- but could not. What if my son knew? When you are asking yourself these questions, you are 'stealth'. You are deep deep stealth. You are not just 'passing'. Stealth means you are now a female with a deep secret.
Yes, it may mean something entirely different to someone else, but the above is what it means to me and to most of the few other girls I know. Nowadays, if someone were to find out, I would not deny it. In an odd way, I think it may feel liberating somehow. On what level, I do not know. I hope this helps in answering your question.
You mean post-op can't be distinguished? Also what's meant by an eternal menstrual period?
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 28, 2014, 05:48:41 PM
How can passing mean anything other than being read as sis? If you're passing, then you're actually "stealth" ???
Yeah, until you're around somebody who knows you are transsexual.
In this day and age if even I were to apply my computer skills and dig deep enough, I could discover a person's past. But I have to have a reason to get involved in discovering someone's past in the first place. So, when I meet someone do I always peer into their past? -of course not. I need a reason to go look up someone's past ie: a personal attack on me, they're going to babysit my kids, or a potential employee, tennant, etc. Something along those lines. Otherwise I do my best to give people the benefit of the doubt and accept them at face value. Which is how most people accept others.
Most of the people who knew me pre-transition don't recognize me now. This even goes for store employees I see regularly. I have no intention of trying to live stealth. If asked about my past I'll gladly explain it. However unless asked I'm just a normal woman going about my business, which is how I'm seen every day.
Allie :icon_flower:
I don't understand why people put so much emphasis on whether not insignificant strangers "might" be able to tell if they were born biologically male or not. To me that seems more like paranoia. Transsexual women use the term "passing" to signify that people in society have no idea that they were not born biologically female. Going "stealth" means not letting anyone know that you were not born biologically female. There is a clear distinction there. In my opinion, who cares? I mean, who cares if someone "might" know? There will always be some degree of hate, prejudice or discrimination you will encounter at some point so why fixate so much on it?
I could sit around complaining about all the discrimination, hate, prejudice, intolerance, the assaults, violence, harassment and various other violent crimes I've went through but why? Why fixate on it? It does not do me any good to sit around dwelling on it. All I can do is try to change how I let fear influence my emotional state by doing things to make sure I feel safe; like having a concealed weapons license and taking my firearm with me everywhere I go. Like I extensively talk about, "One of the most powerful emotional states capable of creating drastic changes in one's behavioral and psychological cognitive processes is fear" (Florez, 2014 p 110). In my research I have found that men and women are affected differently by interpersonal violence or the probability of violence. As transsexual women I purport that we always have that possibility of violence in the back of our minds because we know we are members of the most hated social minority in the United States. I also suspect we all know that crimes committed against transsexual women tend to be more violent and hate motivated than crimes against any other social minority. Thus, it's understandable why people fixate on "passing" and the decision to go stealth, but I find that too negatively affects transsexual women emotionally causing high levels of anxiety, depression, fear, paranoia and never really feeling okay with themselves all of which are risk factors to suicidal tendencies.
In my opinion I feel we are better off simply coming clean and leaving it to history. Being a transsexual is one small part of who we are but if you allow it to consume the very essence of who you are then you become nothing more than a shallow shell where your transgender status dictates your life. What fun is that? When I tell someone new about my cursed birth conditions I make sure they know I will allow them to ask any questions they want and I will not get offended, angry, upset or hold it against them. However, once that question session has been completed I never want to hear another question from them about transsexuality ever again unless I magically bring it up (which I don't). I make this crystal clear. If they bug me I will stop being friends with them because they are disrespecting me and I do not put up with it irrespective of who they are. So my opinion on "passing" and being "stealth" is that they are both BS really.
Quote from: Natalie on July 28, 2014, 11:07:29 PM
I don't understand why people put so much emphasis on whether not insignificant strangers "might" be able to tell if they were born biologically male or not. To me that seems more like paranoia. Transsexual women use the term "passing" to signify that people in society have no idea that they were not born biologically female. Going "stealth" means not letting anyone know that you were not born biologically female. There is a clear distinction there. In my opinion, who cares? I mean, who cares if someone "might" know? There will always be some degree of hate, prejudice or discrimination you will encounter .... So my opinion on "passing" and being "stealth" is that they are both BS really.
Natalie
I am with you on this one but can understand that there are some who just wish to be treated as cis. 'Passing' in my own eyes is more important to me than 'passing' according to some arbitrary standard. Being MAAB, non binary MTA, I want to signal this. To me this is being authentic. Simply said, but hard to effect. Like so many parts of the trans* experience it is an ongoing challenge, but who said life was meant to be easy!
Safe travels
Aisla
Quote from: kariann330 on July 28, 2014, 06:10:46 PM
Best way it was described to me is this, stealth means no one knows that you are transgender, you basically did everything possible to destroy/eliminate your old life including all paper and electric trails. Passing just means that your appearance and voice are that of your target gender.
Honestly if you are looking to go stealth you better start up a rather big fire and start tossing stuff in, and also get some forged documents in your new name
I dunno, maybe it's because of where I live, but all of my records and IDs are in the correct name and gender, and legally the change can't be disclosed. If someone was really desperate to dig into my past, I'm sure it would probably be feasible to find traces, but why would anyone do that? It's enough to pass a background check for a job.
I mean, I moved cities anyway for work. My family would never disclose. I basically ended up as stealth almost by accident. Doesn't have to be that big a deal.
Quote from: Natalie on July 28, 2014, 11:07:29 PMIn my opinion I feel we are better off simply coming clean and leaving it to history. Being a transsexual is one small part of who we are but if you allow it to consume the very essence of who you are then you become nothing more than a shallow shell where your transgender status dictates your life. What fun is that?
Which is exactly why I don't disclose. Why allow one fraction of my identity to dictate how everyone will treat me forever? I'm stealth because I don't want it to overwhelm who I am, because I don't need it casting a shadow over my entire life.
But then, maybe that's just who I am. There are plenty of things that I don't casually disclose: my suicide attempts, my anxiety disorder, my pain condition, my history of self-harm... And a few things I wouldn't be willing to mention even anonymously on susan's. Oh and then there are all the things I hold in confidence for other people. So I have tons and tons of secrets. No big deal.
I think this varies totally to your circumstance and is philosophical more than practical.
I transitioned at work, openly and very publicly. If I pass; fine, I do in general society (or not, I don't actually care). But I can never 'pass' with my colleagues as they will always know who I was before.
But, and for me this is the crux - I am accepted. And with acceptance is respect. My colleagues treat me as the woman I am, even if they know my past.
To be honest I think that is what all decent sensible people would do to anyone in society no matter who or what they are or ever have been.
It is called common human decency.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 29, 2014, 02:40:55 AM
Which is exactly why I don't disclose. Why allow one fraction of my identity to dictate how everyone will treat me forever? I'm stealth because I don't want it to overwhelm who I am, because I don't need it casting a shadow over my entire life.
But then, maybe that's just who I am. There are plenty of things that I don't casually disclose: my suicide attempts, my anxiety disorder, my pain condition, my history of self-harm... And a few things I wouldn't be willing to mention even anonymously on susan's. Oh and then there are all the things I hold in confidence for other people. So I have tons and tons of secrets. No big deal.
Everyone chooses their own path and not everyone will treat you a certain way simply because you are transgender. What I do know is that when you cruise around in stealth mode you always have to worry about this person or that person "finding out" or worry what whomever will do if it's discovered. I've been there and it eventually consumed me like I've seen to virtually every other person that chooses that path. You cannot say this or that, have to watch what stories you tell, how you explain your life, have to be careful who you bring around those that do know, be mindful of what they say, how they say it....it's all just BS. Fact is, you ARE transgender and that will never go away and it IS part of who you are. You have control over who you allow to be in your life and thus, how they essentially treat you because if someone treats you poorly you can disassociate yourselves from them and find people that won't treat you like that.
After everything I've been through and the dozens of people in my life nobody treats me any different than any other woman they know. Nobody fixates on me being a transsexual, nobody talks about it, jokes about it; it's in the past where it belongs. They don't say, "Oh yeah she is a transsexual" or make any distinctions like that even around other transgender people. THAT is acceptance. Not cruising around having to be careful about everything you say or do around people you know.
Quote from: Cindy on July 29, 2014, 02:51:28 AM
I transitioned at work, openly and very publicly. If I pass; fine, I do in general society (or not, I don't actually care). But I can never 'pass' with my colleagues as they will always know who I was before.
How about with people who have started working there since you transitioned? They don't know, presumably don't need to know but work with a whole bunch of people who do know. I'm in that situation myself now. Although my transition at work was notably public, me being trans is now very old news. I don't have a need to tell new staff that I'm trans, I won't be hiding it from them but I'm not going to say "Hi, I'm Grace, I'm trans" when I meet them. Fortunately I work in a sector that is fairly respectful toward trans people, no prying questions and no gossip as far as I can tell. Still, new staff are likely to find out one way or another as my former name (same surname) is plastered over old documents and publications. I'm not letting it bother me.
I don't tell anyone, but I cannot prevent others from doing so. I cannot put on a universal ban.
In many ways that is why my "I don't care what you think about me' armour works.
I also have to admit that I am one of the leading trans*activists in Australia, I will shortly be featured in the media so I have to be able to manage.
I can, that is why I agreed to be who I am >:-)
Being on the telly as a trans person is about as far from being stealth as you can get!
Quote from: Ms Grace on July 29, 2014, 05:20:17 AM
Being on the telly as a trans person is about as far from being stealth as you can get!
You know something? I realised that :laugh:. I had to warn the people I work with, bosses and their bosses that little old frightened Cindy is going to be pushing a barrow straight in the faces of every one who has a newspaper, a television set or social media access that I am going to force them to change the public health system, the education system, social acceptance and how to deal with trans*people in Australia. Sister sister and Brother brother Aboriginal rights, kids rights, get rid of home schooling. Bullying. Allow and train surgeons and endocrinologists, psychiatrists and their Colleges to 'treat' us. Change the anti-discrimination laws to enforce them; I'm taking on a major grocery chain that isn't Coles to sue them for discrimination, I'm taking on the state governments one by one, I will not perjure myself to stop my marriage. I'm taking on the LGBTIQ Alliances to distribute their money.
I'm now secretary of ANZPATH. I'm the organiser of the most important conference on transgender rights in ANZ see www.anzpath.org
No I'm not in stealth; If I pass so what.
I'm a transgender woman and I am damned proud of that. I'm damned proud of having survived.
And I will fight like anything so that men and women who follow me can be in stealth if they so wish.
I'd better stop my rant.
But lets also say on top of that, I work full time, I'm Admin here and run the ANZGSG site, I do community counselling, I'm married, I have close friends, I have an active social life :o I love being me.
Guess what we can have it all.
There is nothing wrong with being trans*, we are as equal or more than equal than anyone anywhere.
I came here a very frightened little creature.
I'm now Cindy.
And I ROCK - and so can you!
(I also have a problem with ego :laugh:)
Rant, pride in you all and motivation stopped for a few minutes :laugh:
Quote from: Natalie on July 29, 2014, 03:25:28 AM
Everyone chooses their own path and not everyone will treat you a certain way simply because you are transgender. What I do know is that when you cruise around in stealth mode you always have to worry about this person or that person "finding out" or worry what whomever will do if it's discovered. I've been there and it eventually consumed me like I've seen to virtually every other person that chooses that path. You cannot say this or that, have to watch what stories you tell, how you explain your life, have to be careful who you bring around those that do know, be mindful of what they say, how they say it....it's all just BS. Fact is, you ARE transgender and that will never go away and it IS part of who you are. You have control over who you allow to be in your life and thus, how they essentially treat you because if someone treats you poorly you can disassociate yourselves from them and find people that won't treat you like that.
After everything I've been through and the dozens of people in my life nobody treats me any different than any other woman they know. Nobody fixates on me being a transsexual, nobody talks about it, jokes about it; it's in the past where it belongs. They don't say, "Oh yeah she is a transsexual" or make any distinctions like that even around other transgender people. THAT is acceptance. Not cruising around having to be careful about everything you say or do around people you know.
Trans folk always make that assumption about me. That I exert all this effort to stay stealth. I don't get it. I feel like, my own experience of my life is something I should be able to express and have people listen. I'm not scared (at least not of that), I'm not careful. That isn't what my life looks like.
I guess I just don't know how to transmute my experience into something people will accept or understand. I'm an out lesbian. I wear dude's clothes and I have short hair and tattoos. I'm visibly queer. I have a girlfriend who I'm totally comfortable talking about at work. I'm an editor and trans-related books come across my desk all the time. The last one to mention trans people was a psychiatrist's memoir that I worked on last month. Hell, I have actually walked into an editorial meeting and pitched the idea of acquiring a memoir of a well-known trans celebrity/activist--to a room absent of people who know anything about my medical history. I've volunteered at a queer theatre and worked alongside other trans people without them knowing my status. I've hung out with other trans folk who are as invisible and stealth as I am, and later disclosed to each other. I've hung out with visibly trans people without giving a damn that it supposedly "puts a target on me" as other stealth folks like to say. I have no fear--not of being outed, I have way better things to be afraid of than that. I can't say it more clearly.
I don't have a history to hide. The number of pictures of me that exist is tiny, and my parents have pretty much all of them. Because I hate having pictures of myself. I certainly don't own any of myself from pre-transition. They make me super uncomfortable even now. I don't own anything that has my old name on it, except a handful of computer files from school. But most importantly I don't pretend like I didn't do anything that I did. I was a tomboy geek then, and I'm a tomboy geek now. I don't have a problem with my past. I don't need to hide anything.
Actually, that's not true. Covering for the 2 years when I did nothing but go to medical appointments is a pain in the butt, but I prefer that to the looks of pity. I bet you all just assumed the medical treatment was transition-related. Nope. I developed a chronic condition in high school. It's horrible, but I manage it. And it isn't anyone's business unless I want it to be.
To me my transsexualism, my transition, is all woven in with the worst moments of my life. With starring vacant-eyed in the mirror and telling myself "I hate you" over and over and over until my voice chokes and I draw red lines with my razor all over my arm to block out the feeling. With wanting to die and trying to figure out ways to trick myself into breathing for another day, another hour. So, no, I don't want to answer any ->-bleeped-<-ing questions from stranger #37, thanks. I don't want to deal with awkward handshakes and awkwarder hugs that remind me every time what I am, how incredibly broken and sad and screwed-up a creature is under the bright eyes and easy smile. I want to keep myself safe and keep my sanity from bleeding out the cracks in my skin. I'm held together with duct tape and wishful thinking. I talk about being trans with people I love and trust, and on here where nobody knows who I am.
I am not going to judge anyone for wanting to be open about their history. If that is what works for you? Brilliant. Extend the same courtesy to me. And rather than making assumptions about my life, about any person's life who lives stealth, ask and listen to the answers.
I find this question fascinating because everyone's answer is based on their life experience, background, convictions, etc. And it all stems from a simple question requesting what the difference is. I admire and respect all the answers because everyone's life walk is unique and anyone in our sisterhood can tell you that while we are all different, we are all in the same boat in various stages of reaching whatever destination we have set before us. I see it as a learning from others and listening carefully; to come away a better person.
PS -- What I meant by having an "eternal menstrual cycle" is that when dating, it was a good excuse to put off sex or wandering hands. Only one man actually liked it and I was quite shocked and did not know how to respond, but I simply told him that I did not like it during my cycle. My worst experience was when I experienced 'date rape', but my thighs are quite strong and had him in a headlock 'cause he was going places that would have proven quite the surprise to him -- its not the way to disclose.
I didn't date at all during transition, I just powered through the standards of care and kept it in my pants until it was anatomically possible to take things as far as *I* wanted to go. When sexual attention did happen, it was great to be able to respond without any reservation
As in my often delusional vision of the world, lol, I do see beyond the rigors of both, passing and stealth. I live my life as a natal woman, I do not speak of my past as though I am proud of the illness I was born with, the disability of genetic malfunction which was my birth defect. As those who had Cancer yet had privilege to be Cancer free do not speak of such as though a virtue.
I make the choice of living my life as a woman, because of the simple detail, I AM A WOMAN, yet I am also transparent in the respect of any question anyone would have as to the origin of my being, I do tell of my illness and the fight for freedom.
Am I stealth, not really, I am simply living as who I really am, and am I passing, I think NOT, because the term passing carries clout of being someone other then, someone camouflaging self to look like other. I am not other, nor am I camouflaging anything, I am transparent if provoked, yet I have done my job to embody and be socially conditioned as a woman just as natal woman do in their childhood and adolescence.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 29, 2014, 06:21:27 AM
Trans folk always make that assumption about me. That I exert all this effort to stay stealth. I don't get it. I feel like, my own experience of my life is something I should be able to express and have people listen. I'm not scared (at least not of that), I'm not careful. That isn't what my life looks like. I guess I just don't know how to transmute my experience into something people will accept or understand. I'm an out lesbian. I wear dude's clothes and I have short hair and tattoos. I'm visibly queer. I have a girlfriend who I'm totally comfortable talking about at work.
You can do that and people make assumptions based on extensive evidence from other transgender people. If you are not scared of how people react to transgender people then that's just naive because violence against our social minority happens all the time. You do not have a magic force-field that prohibits any type of violence. The fact that you are not open about being transgender equates to you putting effort into other people not finding out. Being open as a lesbian and having a girlfriend has absolutely nothing to do with being transgender.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 29, 2014, 06:21:27 AMI'm an editor and trans-related books come across my desk all the time. The last one to mention trans people was a psychiatrist's memoir that I worked on last month. Hell, I have actually walked into an editorial meeting and pitched the idea of acquiring a memoir of a well-known trans celebrity/activist--to a room absent of people who know anything about my medical history. I've volunteered at a queer theatre and worked alongside other trans people without them knowing my status. I've hung out with other trans folk who are as invisible and stealth as I am, and later disclosed to each other. I've hung out with visibly trans people without giving a damn that it supposedly "puts a target on me" as other stealth folks like to say. I have no fear--not of being outed, I have way better things to be afraid of than that. I can't say it more clearly.
None of that has anything to do with
you being transgender. It doesn't matter how active you are in the GBLT community or how many gay or transgender friends you have or who you associate with. You still have to watch what you say or it will out you and the fact that you live stealth only reaffirms this irrespective if you feel you don't have to because you can never escape the fact of your birth condition. If you are stealth your birth sex is one of many things you have to hide. It seems you keep telling yourself that everything is okay and how open your life is as a way to deal with the situation. Keep telling yourself the same thing long enough and enough times you might just start to believe it.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 29, 2014, 06:21:27 AM
I don't have a history to hide. The number of pictures of me that exist is tiny, and my parents have pretty much all of them. Because I hate having pictures of myself. I certainly don't own any of myself from pre-transition. They make me super uncomfortable even now. I don't own anything that has my old name on it, except a handful of computer files from school. But most importantly I don't pretend like I didn't do anything that I did. I was a tomboy geek then, and I'm a tomboy geek now. I don't have a problem with my past. I don't need to hide anything. Actually, that's not true. Covering for the 2 years when I did nothing but go to medical appointments is a pain in the butt, but I prefer that to the looks of pity. I bet you all just assumed the medical treatment was transition-related. Nope. I developed a chronic condition in high school. It's horrible, but I manage it. And it isn't anyone's business unless I want it to be.
Seems self-refuting. If you don't have to hide anything then you don't need to live stealth. You don't have to hide the fact that you are transgender, you don't have to watch what you say, and you don't have to worry about people knowing you are transgender except for maybe the probability of violence which is a very real thing. I am sure you tell the people that do know to not say anything to other people that don't know.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 29, 2014, 06:21:27 AMTo me my transsexualism, my transition, is all woven in with the worst moments of my life. With starring vacant-eyed in the mirror and telling myself "I hate you" over and over and over until my voice chokes and I draw red lines with my razor all over my arm to block out the feeling. With wanting to die and trying to figure out ways to trick myself into breathing for another day, another hour. So, no, I don't want to answer any ->-bleeped-<-ing questions from stranger #37, thanks. I don't want to deal with awkward handshakes and awkwarder hugs that remind me every time what I am, how incredibly broken and sad and screwed-up a creature is under the bright eyes and easy smile. I want to keep myself safe and keep my sanity from bleeding out the cracks in my skin. I'm held together with duct tape and wishful thinking. I talk about being trans with people I love and trust, and on here where nobody knows who I am.
I am not going to judge anyone for wanting to be open about their history. If that is what works for you? Brilliant. Extend the same courtesy to me. And rather than making assumptions about my life, about any person's life who lives stealth, ask and listen to the answers.
My assumptions are all supported by what evidence about transgender people is out there. We all have a past and a story to tell; some worse than others. I am open and I don't need to hide anything to anyone! What I do have control over is who I allow in my reference group; who I allow to be my friend and essentially how they treat me. Being a transsexual does not dictate my life and I don't allow myself to "hide" things or be selective in what I say or to whom it's said to. I mean, your statement here only validated almost everything I already said previously even though I suspect you were clearly attempting to refute it. If that works for you and your life then more power to you, but it will only continue to cause problems because it virtually always does no matter how much you adamantly deny it. One day in the years to come I suspect, with great certainty, that it will happen to you too and all this could be avoided, but it's your life and you live it however you want.
Quote from: Natalie on July 29, 2014, 01:51:39 PM
You can do that and people make assumptions based on extensive evidence from other transgender people. If you are not scared of how people react to transgender people then that's just naive because violence against our social minority happens all the time. You do not have a magic force-field that prohibits any type of violence. The fact that you are not open about being transgender equates to you putting effort into other people not finding out. Being open as a lesbian and having a girlfriend has absolutely nothing to do with being transgender.
If you're not actively thinking about revealing (the process isn't running in your task manager), then how does this equate to putting effort into "not revealing" at all? It's a non sequitur. Information can be exchanged on a need to know basis. If you are confident that you are passing and the topic never comes up, then eventually that belief becomes who and what you are. Passing privilege *is* a force field. But we're talking passing in the strictest sense.
Quote from: Natalie on July 29, 2014, 01:51:39 PM
If that works for you and your life then more power to you, but it will only continue to cause problems because it virtually always does no matter how much you adamantly deny it. One day in the years to come I suspect, with great certainty, that it will happen to you too and all this could be avoided, but it's your life and you live it however you want.
I considered going through and refuting your points about my life one by one, but it really just comes down to: Why would you imagine that you know more about me and my life than I do? I really don't get that. I'm not part of some general standard, some average, some statistical probability. I am me. One individual with my own history, my own family, friends, worries, fears, hopes, dreams... None of which you know anything about. I don't exist within your model. That doesn't mean you should force the things I say to fit what you believe, it means you should consider that maybe your model isn't as all encompassing as you think it is.
And sure, maybe someday someone will beat the ->-bleeped-<- out of me because they find out I'm trans. Or maybe I'll be raped because I'm female. Or maybe I'll be bashed because I'm queer. Or maybe things will get bad and I'll jump off a bloody bridge. So it goes.
But in the meantime, why not live my life the way it works for me? Why not be happy and joke with friends and love my family and ->-bleeped-<- my girlfriend and enjoy the sunsets?
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 29, 2014, 05:12:48 PM
But in the meantime, why not live my life the way it works for me? Why not be happy and joke with friends and love my family and <not allowed> my girlfriend and enjoy the sunsets?
I lovelovelove your philosophy. It's beautiful. (So is your writing BTW).
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 29, 2014, 04:41:44 PM
If you're not actively thinking about revealing (the process isn't running in your task manager), then how does this equate to putting effort into "not revealing" at all? It's a non sequitur. Information can be exchanged on a need to know basis. If you are confident that you are passing and the topic never comes up, then eventually that belief becomes who and what you are. Passing privilege *is* a force field. But we're talking passing in the strictest sense.
Just as there are degrees of passing there are degrees of being stealth. Stealth implies some less of trying to keep one's genetic gender history from those in their life. How deep one wants to be stealth would surely I require a fair bit of effort. Not being stealth I couldn't comment but I would presume it would require some degree of constant vigilance, even if it was running in the background, particularly being wary of people from one's past suddenly showing up.
Quote from: Ms Grace on July 29, 2014, 06:00:39 PM
Just as there are degrees of passing there are degrees of being stealth. Stealth implies some less of trying to keep one's genetic gender history from those in their life. How deep one wants to be stealth would surely I require a fair bit of effort. Not being stealth I couldn't comment but I would presume it would require some degree of constant vigilance, even if it was running in the background, particularly being wary of people from one's past suddenly showing up.
At some point, and I can't remember when, you reach a point where you forget completely and then you catch a snippet of the news or, if you are pre like me, you are trying on a nice pair of jeans and voila! you are reminded.. ugh ugh ugh. But there are those long periods of time when you completely forget. As for the past, if it is like mine, it works because there is no "male" past. I had the hardest time trying to explain on paper a transition that never occurred from male to female. Yes, that does happen. After my surgery, I guess I'll forget for even longer periods of time and I will finally have a physical transition in the peepee area lol!. Either way, life is interesting so I live it.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 29, 2014, 05:42:28 PMI lovelovelove your philosophy. It's beautiful. (So is your writing BTW).
Aww, that's so sweet of you to say. Thank you!
Quote from: Ms Grace on July 29, 2014, 06:00:39 PM
Just as there are degrees of passing there are degrees of being stealth. Stealth implies some less of trying to keep one's genetic gender history from those in their life. How deep one wants to be stealth would surely I require a fair bit of effort. Not being stealth I couldn't comment but I would presume it would require some degree of constant vigilance, even if it was running in the background, particularly being wary of people from one's past suddenly showing up.
Speaking for me, personally, I'd rather just be surprised than spend all my time thinking about it. The whole point of being stealth for me is so that I don't have to think about it if I don't want to.
The one time it did happen was SUPER awkward and embarrassing, but it isn't like I died or something. And besides, it happened when I was back in the city I grew up in visiting a friend. He happened to have a nurse on staff that day that had been a regular carer for him back when I was like 8 or 9. (He's disabled.) You'd think that would make me harder to recognize, but apparently not! So me and my mate had a laugh about it and moved on.
Most people who knew me only briefly or tangentially don't remember I'm the same person, or are medical personnel. Those that knew me better are either long, long gone or family friends and they know the score or I avoid them like the plague, depending on the person in question.
I'm not "deep stealth" as they say. My parents know, my parents' partners know, my sister knows, her fiancee knows, my step-brothers know, my aunts and first cousins know. My sister's closest friends know, my parents' closest friends know. My best friend knows, my best friend's mother knows, one of my best friend's friends knows. My girlfriend knows, my girlfriend's parents and sister know, a trans friend of my girl knows. A handful of friends of one of my aunts knows because she outed me without my consent and I'm still a bit pissed at her about that, though she has probably apologized enough by now.
There was a phase I went through during and after transition where me and my family slowly and carefully disclosed to the people we felt should know. But that period has been over for nearly 3 years now. The new feel has long worn off. The overwhelming majority of the people I interact with on a daily basis don't know my history and have no business knowing. It's become my choice who knows and who doesn't. Who I tell and who I don't. And that, to me, feels really good.
The reason I was so angry with my aunt, is that it felt like... like she'd told them something deeply, deeply intimate about me. Like... Oh this is my niece and she likes to be held down by her girlfriend when they have sex. Yesh. I hold in my head intimate details about lots of people's lives, including about her for goodness sake. And I don't wander around spilling them in anyone's ear. That would be seriously unethical.
It took me a while to learn that I only feel comfortable sharing intimacy with people that I'm really connected to, really love. I have lots of trust issues because of some of the things that happened in my life and that is just who I am. So for me, it feels comfy, it feels good that I can keep that stuff inside my skin. And when I want to talk, I go to someone that I feel will really hear me.
It interesting in the posts - and its so nice to be in here by the way with the girls - that the other meaning of stealth as trans is not looked at. That of still passing as your birth gender, while at the same time, being in reality physically transitioned, though not necessary surgically.
I pass often as cis male, am genderqueer if you look at the nails or I lean back or my suit opens up, and hear not a word from anyone, accept that they want to know how on earth my nails look so nice. Stealth? Dunno, for if anyone asked, I am out as genderqueer, unless they have malicious intent. But I could just as easily say fully TS since I have 14 months of hormones flying around in me, with the rather wonderful results I so desperately need to see and be.
But that was always the second meaning of stealth. Just really not outing yourself. In some social conditions, I have to do that and then I may go so far as what I had called - erroneously based on this thread - deep stealth. In costume, so to speak, as someone that is not a transsexual. Unrecognizable and with a secret identity.
When GQ the term does not apply very well. And I rather enjoy that.
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 29, 2014, 04:41:44 PM
If you're not actively thinking about revealing (the process isn't running in your task manager), then how does this equate to putting effort into "not revealing" at all? It's a non sequitur. Information can be exchanged on a need to know basis. If you are confident that you are passing and the topic never comes up, then eventually that belief becomes who and what you are. Passing privilege *is* a force field. But we're talking passing in the strictest sense.
It's logical, even when one does not actively think about it they still
have done and
will do things that aide them in keeping themselves "stealth." Your statement is essentially self-refuting because it implies its own falsity. The fact that one shares information on a "need to know basis" is done because there are certain things they do not want to reveal which equates to putting in some type of effort, however small, into making sure they stay stealth. They do not need to actively think about it 24\7 especially once they have their routine down. Your last statement is also inherently false because you are claiming that if one believes something enough then it becomes true. Delusions do not always result in reality. Fact is, people might describe themselves differently depending on whether the question they are asked implies situational specificity or not, but your position here is claiming that who anyone is as a person is dependent on how others treat them in society. The simple fact of being a transgender person refutes this erroneous claim because we all suffer strain because of how people adversely treat us because of our transgender status. I cannot "make" my transsexualism go away no matter how much I delude myself into believing that I am not a transsexual person. Thus, if your theory was correct then we would be a big group of virtually nothing but self-deprecating people, however, that is simply not so.
Then again, I don't fixate on whether or not I pass in society because I truly don't care what other insignificant people think about me, but to claim passing is a "privilege" that enables someone to magically advert all this other stuff is probably...that's down right hilarious! People use "stealth" because they believe they might be judged in light of a negative stereotype about their social identity or that they may inadvertently act in some way to confirm a negative stereotype of their devalued group status. When transsexual women value their ability in a certain domain (e.g. passing) but it is one in which their group is stereotyped as something socially negative (e.g. being a transsexual woman) then passing becomes a focal point in their lives and they do everything in their power to do it. After doing it for so long it becomes routine and they may not think about "passing" or being stealth on a daily basis, but they do it in order to alleviate any type of stigma attached to their devalued group membership irrespective if they have to fixate on it everyday or not. Since transsexual women are actively devalued and seen with less worth than women passing and being stealth is fundamentally important, but it comes with various psychological consequences I've already talked about.
Quote from: Natalie on July 29, 2014, 08:24:20 PM
It's logical, even when one does not actively think about it they still have done and will do things that aide them in keeping themselves "stealth."
Sure everyone has a bit of insecurity, that's a given, probably about as much as other cis gals who are insecure about the stealthiness of their fat arses. ;D
But you seem to be making a huge leap to think that somehow being a transwoman who passes has an underlying insecurity that's monopolizing their thoughts to the point of personal affliction. Passing privilege is a *huge relief* for the transwoman.
QuoteYour statement is essentially self-refuting because it implies its own falsity. The fact that one shares information on a "need to know basis" is done because there are certain things they do not want to reveal which equates to putting in some type of effort, however small, into making sure they stay stealth. They do not need to actively think about it 24\7 especially once they have their routine down.
This doesn't make sense. Just because somebody isn't asking me if I used to be a cat doesn't mean it's a thing in the back of my mind I'm continuously putting an effort not to reveal.
QuoteYour last statement is also inherently false because you are claiming that if one believes something enough then it becomes true. Delusions do not always result in reality. Fact is, people might describe themselves differently depending on whether the question they are asked implies situational specificity or not, but your position here is claiming that who anyone is as a person is dependent on how others treat them in society. The simple fact of being a transgender person refutes this erroneous claim because we all suffer strain because of how people adversely treat us because of our transgender status. I cannot "make" my transsexualism go away no matter how much I delude myself into believing that I am not a transsexual person.
Then again, I don't fixate on whether or not I pass in society because I truly don't care what other insignificant people think about me, but to claim passing is a "privilege" that enables someone to magically advert all this other stuff is probably...that's down right hilarious!
If you are passing in spades, your risk of random violence is about as much as the next cis woman...
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 29, 2014, 08:51:57 PM
But you seem to be making a huge leap to think that somehow being a transwoman who passes has an underlying insecurity that's monopolizing their thoughts to the point of personal affliction.
I think it depends a lot on the person in question. I do know trans folk who feel or felt like that, and passing became a really unhealthy obsession. I also know trans folks for whom it became completely second nature.
Me, I don't feel insecure but I do feel guilty sometimes for being stealth, because I know that the more people who are open and out the better for all of us. But I'm just not at a place in my head where I think that would be healthy for me. My sister put it best when she said that "you wish you wanted to be out, but you don't." She was the one who convinced me to give myself some time and not to just be open about it right away. And maybe sometime I will be out, but it's not right for me now.
And then there are those who are unpassable and totally content, or passable and happy to be out and open. Or those who are open and it causes constant strain.
I feel like it just comes down to taking the tools you have and trying to do what feels best for you.
I also feel like sometimes there is a bit of... distance or failure of communication between generations on this one. For a young transitioner, stealth is a lot more tempting. You aren't established in your profession, you don't have a lot of history, you are more likely to be up for moving cities, you don't have kids or a long term relationship to deal with, and your chances of being passable are really high. You are also less likely to have the financial security to insulate yourself from some of the discrimination or violence, so being stealth becomes a method of self-defense.
...I have approximately a hundred billion things I don't tell people, including that I used to be a giant nerd in my past and went to space camp, or that I had eye surgery, and on and on. :) There will come a time, and I can see it on the horizon, when transition is one of those things; when it will take an act of will to recall it in order TO tell people. It's not always a conscious *or* unconscious suppression.
Oh Hell no, they aren't similar at all. Stealth is a very specific condition, of no-one knowing about a persons past. Passing merely means functioning in a normal gender role.
O.o
So much in this thread... Late to arrive as always.
Summary in my head:
1. Passing = looking like a duck! walking like a duck! Sound like a duck! So you are a duck!
2. Stealth = no one knows the duck was a frog before.
3. Degrees of stealth = how much of the pond you grew up in is destroyed. The lily pad or the pond itself... Not so easy to destroy the pond as a frog yah?
And then there is the reverse stealth - feel like a duck, can look, walk, and sound like a duck, but you still act like a frog anyway (or pretend to...)
Anything more to add? :D
So much here is based on personal POV. Nothing wrong with that. How could it be any other way? The original question, does passing "equate" to stealth, is sufficiently vague and ill defined as to engender pretty much what has ensued.
My own take on this will probably not make much sense to most of since my POV comes from what is essentially a totally foreign school thought. I guess what I am saying is that I am not really comfortable with the label "trans*". I did not go through my own personal hell to be anything other than just an ordinary woman.
I suppose that my experience would only apply to the young in that as noted in a previous comment, "....I also feel like sometimes there is a bit of... distance or failure of communication between generations on this one. For a young transitioner, stealth is a lot more tempting. You aren't established in your profession, you don't have a lot of history, you are more likely to be up for moving cities, you don't have kids or a long term relationship to deal with, and your chances of being passable are really high. You are also less likely to have the financial security to insulate yourself from some of the discrimination or violence, so being stealth becomes a method of self-defense."
Conversely, whereas an older transitioner might not have those potential advantages, it could easily be expected that they would find another method of "self-defense".
Quote from: luna nyan on July 29, 2014, 10:36:57 PM
O.o
So much in this thread... Late to arrive as always.
Summary in my head:
1. Passing = looking like a duck! walking like a duck! Sound like a duck! So you are a duck!
2. Stealth = no one knows the duck was a frog before.
3. Degrees of stealth = how much of the pond you grew up in is destroyed. The lily pad or the pond itself... Not so easy to destroy the pond as a frog yah?
And then there is the reverse stealth - feel like a duck, can look, walk, and sound like a duck, but you still act like a frog anyway (or pretend to...)
Anything more to add? :D
nice!!!!!!! Love this post
Quote from: luna nyan on July 29, 2014, 10:36:57 PM
O.o
So much in this thread... Late to arrive as always.
Summary in my head:
1. Passing = looking like a duck! walking like a duck! Sound like a duck! So you are a duck!
2. Stealth = no one knows the duck was a frog before.
3. Degrees of stealth = how much of the pond you grew up in is destroyed. The lily pad or the pond itself... Not so easy to destroy the pond as a frog yah?
And then there is the reverse stealth - feel like a duck, can look, walk, and sound like a duck, but you still act like a frog anyway (or pretend to...)
Anything more to add? :D
I like the cut of this jibe. ;D Brilliant! I actually account for the frog behavior, a-lot... But I can't help myself, I don't feel like a girly girly gurl. But I love my outward appearance.
So I got to thinking about the reply's in here. What do you peeps think about this,
Beautiful women are constantly reminded of their beauty in many different ways. They don't need to affirm anything to themselves because it's done for them, and they'll spend time thinking about other things like how deep that particular gentleman's pockets are. ;D She is "living" and not "coping".
Passing privilege is also a type of beauty, a level thereof. A transwoman who has passing privilege isn't constantly consumed with trying to pass and is also reminded of their "passing" in many different ways. That privilege also free's her up to think about other things, like being a regular normal gal. So she's also "living" and not "coping".
I really think achieving passing privilege is the holy grail of transsexualism. Being beautiful is just icing on the cake.
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 30, 2014, 06:01:51 PM
I really think achieving passing privilege is the holy grail of transsexualism. Being beautiful is just icing on the cake.
It is far easier to pass as an ugly woman than a beautiful one. I think beauty and passing are orthogonal.
I do think passing is the grail of transsexualism, but not of ->-bleeped-<-.
well I fully pass, and get lots of compliments for my looks/physique but idk, I still struggle with bottom dysphoria. I don't have many friends and part of the reason why is cause I'm just paranoid of my surroundings due to where I live. I have a new found attraction to guys but it's not something I'm willing to explore cause of the potential danger that has. So for the time being I'm just continuing to work on myself and still identify as a lesbian since despite my new attraction to guys, I can't see myself being in a relationship with one.
I really wish there were more young transitioners like me in my area, then I probably would have an actual close group of friends. Or even dating another trans woman would be awesome and I could finally feel comfy enough about being intimate. I'm still a virgin at 24 and its all thanks to my dysphoria. I crave human touch right now but I'm not seeking it out. I'm sure in time as I put myself out there more, I'll find someone.
Yea I'd say I'm not coping anymore and living for the first time ever in my life finally and that's thanks to passing. But it just presents a whole new host of problems to deal with, that's life I guess, it's never easy. And no I have not once thought of being a gold digger lololol. I think that's a crazy mentality to have imo. But I do understand the struggles of not passing, I put it in a ton of work and then some to be where I' am with my body. Was training my voice for almost 3 years till I finally achieved my female voice, hours upon hours spent on perfecting my presentation. I presented female prehrt when I didn't pass a 100% and after hrt when I still wasn't passing. You have to go into that IDGAF mode to gain that shred of confidence that makes all the difference in the world. It was really hard but it was the worth experience.
The only huge step left in my transition is srs, which might be happening in the next 2 years if things go right. My dad is doing all he can at his work so they can cover it, right now we're waiting to hear back from his HR department.
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 29, 2014, 08:51:57 PM
Quotefrom: Natalie on Yesterday at 09:24:20 pm
It's logical, even when one does not actively think about it they still have done and will do things that aide them in keeping themselves "stealth."
Sure everyone has a bit of insecurity, that's a given, probably about as much as other cis gals who are insecure about the stealthiness of their fat arses. ;D
But you seem to be making a huge leap to think that somehow being a transwoman who passes has an underlying insecurity that's monopolizing their thoughts to the point of personal affliction. Passing privilege is a *huge relief* for the transwoman.
Quote
Your statement is essentially self-refuting because it implies its own falsity. The fact that one shares information on a "need to know basis" is done because there are certain things they do not want to reveal which equates to putting in some type of effort, however small, into making sure they stay stealth. They do not need to actively think about it 24\7 especially once they have their routine down.
This doesn't make sense. Just because somebody isn't asking me if I used to be a cat doesn't mean it's a thing in the back of my mind I'm continuously putting an effort not to reveal.
Quote
Your last statement is also inherently false because you are claiming that if one believes something enough then it becomes true. Delusions do not always result in reality. Fact is, people might describe themselves differently depending on whether the question they are asked implies situational specificity or not, but your position here is claiming that who anyone is as a person is dependent on how others treat them in society. The simple fact of being a transgender person refutes this erroneous claim because we all suffer strain because of how people adversely treat us because of our transgender status. I cannot "make" my transsexualism go away no matter how much I delude myself into believing that I am not a transsexual person.
Then again, I don't fixate on whether or not I pass in society because I truly don't care what other insignificant people think about me, but to claim passing is a "privilege" that enables someone to magically advert all this other stuff is probably...that's down right hilarious!
If you are passing in spades, your risk of random violence is about as much as the next cis woman...
bUMp for NataliEEEeE! ;D
Quote from: luna nyan on July 29, 2014, 10:36:57 PM
Anything more to add? :D
*Points at her avatar* I'm obviously not a duck. :P :D