There have been a number of posts recently from people who identify as as non-binary. Some of the reply posts have been quite odd. They have been non-accepting, why?
We are a group that suffers intense dysphoria, yet some of us seem unable to accept that people are different to you and your journey.
Our journeys are personal.
No journey is better than another persons. No journey is invalidating. No journey is better or worse.
ToS #10 is clear, everyone is welcome, no one is to be denied.
We fight daily to be accepted in society, and we still fight each other?
Why?
It's been a issue as long as I been around. Lots of inner fights with each other over jealousy.
So why is a great question!
Quote from: Cindy on September 19, 2014, 05:20:50 AM
We fight daily to be accepted in society, and we still fight each other?
Why?
I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that so many of us have had our identities denied throughout some/most/all of our lives. So we're really, really sensitive when someone comes to us with questions like "you're not like us so why do you also want recognition/HRT/Transition/surgery?" They sound invalidating.
I also think that some binary folk might find non-binary folk threatening. Many binary trans folk have had to fight for the opportunity to live as their identified gender. It has been necessary for many of them repeatedly to point out that they ARE members of their identified gender and therefore NEED to have medical treatment and an authentic life free of harassment. Now, along come non-binary folk who testify that it's possible to be sort of in-between and maybe there is a primal fear that binary transfolk will hear some version of "why can't you just live in between like those non-binary folk."
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 19, 2014, 07:34:33 AM
I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that so many of us have had our identities denied throughout some/most/all of our lives. So we're really, really sensitive when someone comes to us with questions like "you're not like us so why do you also want recognition/HRT/Transition/surgery?" They sound invalidating.
I also think that some binary folk might find non-binary folk threatening. Many binary trans folk have had to fight for the opportunity to live as their identified gender. It has been necessary for many of them repeatedly to point out that they ARE members of their identified gender and therefore NEED to have medical treatment and an authentic life free of harassment. Now, along come non-binary folk who testify that it's possible to be sort of in-between and maybe there is a primal fear that binary transfolk will hear some version of "why can't you just live in between like those non-binary folk."
Suzi
I think that you have identified a number of potential reasons for the tension which appears to arise from time to time. The NB and the binary trans experience are quite different. While both types of folk have a shared narrative in that they have struggled to understand, accept and express their identity, their identities are also quite different.
A binary member sees a binary transition as the desired end state and in many ways, as their nirvana. A non binary member seeks to recognise and express an identity which, in many ways varies by each individual and may or may not require surgical or medical assistance. This may, at first pass, appear to a binary member as similar to the transition phase or androgynous part of their journey. They may find that this narrative or experience causes them to regard even self identified non binaries as in denial, resisting an inevitable transition, or perhaps in an unsustainable position. It appears hard for a binary to accept that for a non binary this intermediate state (using the gender spectrum paradigm) is their desired state, they aspire to a mix of so called gender qualities, attributes, cues etc and in most cases, will work with their endos to achieve the target point of equilibrium.
For a non binary to be questioned, disbelieved, ridiculed or harassed is extremely unsettling, invalidating and triggering. Conversely as you say, a binary may find the reality of, and happiness of non binaries as enormously confronting when having transitioned they then find themselves tending towards a non binary identity and presentation. Finding that they both may now occupy a similar identity space but where one person has avoided career, social and partner fallout or trauma by moving eg MTNB rather than MTFTNB may be quite unsettling or indeed confronting.
At the end of the day, folk may or may not find or give offence wittingly or unwittingly. I think that both binary and non binary folk will benefit if we both assume good intent rather than bad intent. Respect is very important and, as with every other family or community, we need to look after each other, call out bad behavior, praise good behavior and be considerate and forgiving of ourselves and of others.
Hope the above makes sense and does not cause offence, as this is certainly not my intention. I respect and love so many folk on Susans and wish everyone the very best on their respective journeys
Safe travels
Aisla
Thank you for this! I agree 100% that we can't afford to be rejecting and insulting people in the same way we are so often rejected and insulted by cis people...
(My wife is non-binary and bisexual, and the pushback she gets over both issues have made her very wary of both the trans and gay/lesbian communities...)
I am one to believe that we are all in the same boat together and that in order to achieve acceptance in society, we all need to be on the same page. I'm no scientist, but the way it was explained to me by my therapist (who has dissected trans brains for her PhD) is that gender dysphoria occurs when your brain does not completely align with your body, and there are most certainly degrees of it. We all start with a female brain, and in most cases a XY fetus' brain will fully masculinize and an XX will not masculinize at all. We all know that doesn't always happen. There are XY brains that fail to masculinize almost completely and some only partially. Sometimes XX brains almost fully masculinize, some partially. I have oversimplified things here, but my point is that gender is a spectrum, not a binary. Some of us can clearly check an "M" or "F" box, some neither, some both.
I initially ID'd as non-binary/androgyne/bigender, but as I explored things after HRT (which may have even shifted me over the edge), I found that the "M" part of me wasn't really me at all. I am female. *RAWR*
There are as many ways to be trans as there are transpeople, and what works for one of us, works for one of us. I think we all need to remember this and respect the fact that our situations are all unique.
I don't really know which posts we're talking about,
But I hope we all can be models of acceptance and encouragement for
All the various forums and groups.. I really love the trans binary forums, I envy some of the beautiful transitions taking place, and wish I could share more...
Quote from: Mark3 on September 19, 2014, 03:06:10 PM
I don't really know which posts we're talking about
Probably the one I was involved in Mark. It seems I have some kind of talent for making people uncomfortable and angry when I am just trying to help. I really am trying to figure it out everybody :(
I apologize yet again. Can we move forward now? :(
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 19, 2014, 06:40:08 PM
Probably the one I was involved in Mark. It seems I have some kind of talent for making people uncomfortable and angry when I am just trying to help. I really am trying to figure it out everybody :(
I apologize yet again. Can we move forward now? :(
Jessica, stop being so hard on yourself.. I can think of others who push against the non-binary far more than you - not that you really do at all. A certain woman who's username starts with a t, is followed by a double vowel and ends in a single consonant would be far higher on my list of suspects.
Thanks Jessica..
I fully understand now,
I know the details now and some of the past problems..
Yes, I remember that topic well..
It was a shame it ended so harshly..
I couldn't help thinking those comments were putting
Great emotional stress on some involved,
And because of that it appeared easy to take sides,
I admit being guilty of that..
Quote from: kelly_aus on September 19, 2014, 06:54:52 PM
Jessica, stop being so hard on yourself.. I can think of others who push against the non-binary far more than you - not that you really do at all. A certain woman who's username starts with a t, is followed by a double vowel and ends in a single consonant would be far higher on my list of suspects.
Ditto. Jessica you are always well intentioned. Be well.
Aisla
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 19, 2014, 08:56:06 PM
I think a different way to look at this is why don't we help each other out as groups to begin with?
Share questions and answers, information...
Why aren't we building bridges and tearing down the divides between groups?
True, not all of it applies to everyone, but how do you know what the next person is thinking about, what help they are looking for?
People around here change as they grow more experienced with their own paths, they change accordingly.
Does that change the way you should treat them?
We should be helping people when they feel a need to change their directions, their paths.
I like this...! This is so right..
Quote from: paula lesley on September 20, 2014, 01:59:27 PM
Forgive me, but do " all " users of this forum dislike each other ? Is it really so important to them ?
Anyone who questions their " gender " is " trans " Which part of the spectrum we choose is up to us.
I do not know any " trans " people. I am happy ;)
I am pleased to say that there is a great deal of love, support and respect in this community. However from time to time problems have arisen and this thread has been an attempt to understand why this occurs and how this can be best avoided and managed. In some ways misunderstandings will always occur, but it is how we deal with this and move forward which defines us as a family.
Safe travels
Aisla
It seems to me that since posting in a forum does not convey auditory and visual cues it is hard sometimes to really get the meaning of certain posts. I am usually guided by the subject and tags.
It will help if in the tag or in the subject the OP includes the words "serious topic," to warn the reader that even thought the subjects does not seem serious to a regular reader, it is to the OP and other participants.
For example, the subject could be about "farting clowns," and that could be a serious matter of which no "funny responses" would be acceptable to the OP or the other serious followers. Well, then my "funny post" could send the serious OP of his/her followers in "floating anger," so to speak...
Do not take yourself so serious, take a "chill pill, give me the benefit of the doubt, ignore me, send me a PM (I will profusely apologize if I have offend you...) be a little bit more tolerant.... live your smite and harsh words for the end... when else has failed
Personally I have never made a difference between the Binaries and Non-binaries... I believe there are absolutes, we all are balanced in a continuum at many different levels
Peace,
Peky
I feel both non-binary and binary members can learn from one another, just like human beings can learn a thing or two from one another.
Non-binary members, I feel, may need to learn that binary members only have their own life experiences to call from when giving support and advice. It should not be assumed that their experiences (such as transitioning) means your life will eventually replicate their experiences like a mirror. I feel it is rude for non-binary members who act as if binary members are urinating on their territory when attempting to empathize and maul them to pieces like a rabid dog. There is no need to resort with such hostility. If you feel your identity is threatened or invalidated by a binary member's existence, then your identity is not as strong as you previously thought. Vice-versa for binary members - if a non-binary member's existence feels threatening to you, then the problem does not lie with them, it lies within you - be it fear of difference or insecurities.
Binary members... I feel, they have their heart in the right place, just it can be hard to keep up with the ever-fluid nature and labels of non-binary members (Perhaps a Sticky of the Non-Binary labels/definitions may be useful...? I wanna add all the Non-Binary Stickies!)... I feel more open communication from non-binary members can help to educate others more - the "forest" thread and "path of non-binary" are wonderful examples of people's experiences - not just NB! It's true that sometimes one cannot relate to another's experience unless they have been through it themselves.
I, for one, would love to make a thread about the things binary members have in common with non-binary members (and vice-versa) - I think it could be enjoyable and we can begin to learn that we aren't really so much different from each other as we think. One example I can think of is a non-binary and MTF sharing make-up tips, helping each other out by giving suggestions on fashion and maybe even going shopping together, having fun and laughing together.
I used to get upset by comments on the Non-binary forum but I don't anymore. I learnt that my mind can easily manipulate innocent conversation into triggers that upset me and I'll have basically made a big thing out of pretty much nothing. If the mind is fragile from past hurt and crippled with fear, even the most supportive comments can appear to be laced with malicious intent. A mind filled with fear will lash out at those who hurt and those who support. I have since learnt to stop my mind from doing this - how, you say? Quite easy, I detach myself from the situation and look over the posts slowly, making sure I am getting the message the person is attempting to send. I will read them over and over again until I feel I have succeeded, if not, I will most likely PM the member for more clarification to properly understand.
I have confidence in my identity of myself - I don't have to prove myself or justify myself to anyone. If people question me genuinely, I will answer them honestly and respectfully but if they refuse to give the same respect back, continuing to belittle my experiences and question my behavior because it is not "normal", I will take that as my cue to leave the thread. No nastiness, no name-calling - none of that because I know I am better than that.
We all are better than that.
*Hugs and kisses for everyone!* :icon_bunch:
Jacey
Edit: :police: The two posters above me, please remove yourself from the threads, only adults are allowed to post here. :police:
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
(Seriously though, attacking each other on a thread that is trying to solve this very issue is quite alarming... May I suggest apologizing to each other sincerely, asking for forgiveness and moving forward...? Otherwise this community will struggle to proceed forward in achieving acceptance and building stronger bonds between one another.. all over what? Members holding past grudges against one another? That would be such a shame.)
I just read and refrain from posting. No one needs my opinions.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 19, 2014, 06:40:08 PM
Probably the one I was involved in Mark. It seems I have some kind of talent for making people uncomfortable and angry when I am just trying to help. I really am trying to figure it out everybody :(
I apologize yet again. Can we move forward now? :(
I agree with Kelly, Please stop being so hard on yourself.
As for why Cindy. That is something I can't understand. I definitely agree with Jill in we are all in the same boat. I just hope it ain't the Titanic we're all on.
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 21, 2014, 11:25:31 AM
You are consistently and absolutely a part of the problem and lack the intelligence to realize it.
Your words are meaningless and I find your words hollow in content.
This is exactly what divides us. The poster said if something offends to ask and see if it was a misunderstanding. Maybe you should ease your anger a little and try to help with relations between members instead of judging which is something binaries are being accused of. :(
I don't undrstand what is meant by "binary" and "non-binary". Please tell me.
binary is anything that has only two possible values, which are rather either or.
like binary numbers, consisting only of 1s and 0s.
a binary view on gender, would say that there is only male and female, and you are either one or the other (this is rather true for most people).
non-binary is a term we have applied to all experiences of gender that don't fit with the binary view.
it might be the androgyne, where a person is a little bit of each, somewhere in the middle.
the neuter, that is nothing of neither, and would rather not be associated with any gender at all.
someone who is both at the same time, fully and wholly rather than in between.
or something else entirely. like a lone pluto in a world of men from venus and women from mars.
Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 21, 2014, 11:44:07 AM
I, for one, would love to make a thread about the things binary members have in common with non-binary members (and vice-versa) - I think it could be enjoyable and we can begin to learn that we aren't really so much different from each other as we think. One example I can think of is a non-binary and MTF sharing make-up tips, helping each other out by giving suggestions on fashion and maybe even going shopping together, having fun and laughing together.
I love this idea Jacey..! :)
i just realized one thing. a rhetorical mistake that is made so often.
why? because we forget to validate each other's viewpoints.
when offering a different option, solution, or something than the poster before, try validating their post as well if you can agree with it (in a general sense, not necessarily in the case discussed).
i just forgot to validate, maybe i thought it wasn't necessary. but we aren't mind readers, and i got self defense in response.
started defending myself as well, and then suddenly, after posting, realized that the extra posting might not even have been needed if only i'd validated first.
it's a mistake i often make. people think i disagree with them because i offer a completely different view or solution. i offer those because i see value in considering other possibilities, but when i don't validate the other's opinion before starting, of course they'll think i'm disagreeing. unless they actually know me really well, but most people here don't.
Sometimes, when reading posts by both sides involved, I get that vague feeling that binaries are facing the same difficulties when trying to understand non-binaries (and vice-versa) as cisgenders when trying to understand transgender community. Duh.
i remember this manga author once writing about how she doesn't understand gays (even though she writes homoerotic literature).
she's bisexual, so it's easy to understand what it's like to like the same sex. but not liking the opposite sex, that's something of a mystery to her.
monosexuality and bisexuality are so different that it might be easier for a heterosexual and homosexual to understand each other, than it is for either to understand bisexuality. or for a bisexual to really understand the two other.
probably something of the same thing between binary and non-binary.
they're just so fundamentally different.
Quote from: Taka on September 22, 2014, 06:53:50 AM
i remember this manga author once writing about how she doesn't understand gays (even though she writes homoerotic literature).
she's bisexual, so it's easy to understand what it's like to like the same sex. but not liking the opposite sex, that's something of a mystery to her.
monosexuality and bisexuality are so different that it might be easier for a heterosexual and homosexual to understand each other, than it is for either to understand bisexuality. or for a bisexual to really understand the two other.
probably something of the same thing between binary and non-binary.
they're just so fundamentally different.
Ironically, I was contemplating a bit similar thoughts just yesterday and came to conclusion that I dont understand homosexual couples either. I_just_dont_get_it. Now, being trans as the most marginalised and stygmatised minority ever (amirite?), I should be all about acceptance, tolerance and understanding? Wrong. I am not homophobic. Period. Means, I dont care who do they sleep with and are attracted to and theoretically can befriend anyone if we click on the emotional level. But.. I just dont get them :) and do not really want to. So being such like - can I really condemn binary or cisgender people for not being able to understand or approve me as trans? Guess, not, so I better shut up now:).
We need to address the gender assimilationist "just like you (cis)" narrative that permeates the binary trans world. Fortunately those who are militant in pushing that narrative are small in number, and already not welcome on the forum, but listen to the general chatter and there's definitely a culture of judging other trans folk on their ability to blend in. This environment is subtly not welcoming and a little bit toxic for non binary and gender non-conforming individuals, because we're not trying to fit neatly in the binary, which means we can get perceived as a threat to it.
I've only been back a couple of weeks and I've only really seen one example of naked aggression towards non-binary identified people, but I've read plenty of chatter that has made me feel uncomfortable in some spaces in the forum.
I feel that there needs to be more respect for other people's paths and experiences, yes there are some similarities in the various paths we walk, but we're not all the same and it really shouldn't be an issue that we aren't.
I just can't believe that we all face the same discrimination from society, the same hate, the same animosity, the same non acceptance form society and so on and we are fighting amongst ourselves. ??? We are all under the same "umbrella" and no one wants to get wet in a downpour. I mean I am non binary, I think. Sometimes it seems like I am drawn toward the MTF binary. And then sometimes back to non binary. Really though, what difference does it make? I'm me and that is all that I can be. Whether MTF Non Binary, MTF Binary, Cis ( yeah that worked really good when I tried. BIG FAIL ::)) I really don't care who identifies as what because I find the experience here priceless. Way better than therapy even.
Some may not like what I got to say in this next part but we are all shunned by society. Except for small circles or subcultures. Yes it seems to be changing and picking up momentum but the important thing is that we are all transgender no matter how broad that term may be, and we really need to stick together especially when we are gaining sympathy from parts of society. I'm sorry but no one is better than anyone else and no path is more legitimate than any other. If we stick together, we may change things. If we separate and form our own little groups, well we are divided and one rule of warfare is to divide and conquer. I for one don't want this movement conquered. :( I want to see it pick up more momentum and force society to accept everyone, or at least respect everyone's right to live their own lives. But how can we expect society to accept and respect us, when we can't even accept or respect different concepts under the same transgender umbrella?
I really expect someone is gonna' get mad at me for saying what I said. I am sorry if I offended anyone but we really need to stop and think and then stick together because we as transgender are becoming more and more known in society in a positive light. No more swept under the rug, no matter how you identify. Now is the time we really need to stick together. I mean Cindy put her self out there and got way more positive responses than negative. That is a plus. A really big plus. And now is the time we all need to stick together.
No I will shut up and wait for the rotten vegetables to hit me in the face. :-\
Quote from: Jess42 on September 22, 2014, 01:47:17 PM
We are all under the same "umbrella" and no one wants to get wet in a downpour.
Yes, get out that transgender umbrella so we don't all get covered in gender fluid (or rotten tomatoes).
Sorry, bad joke. I fully accept non-binary people as part of "the club" and we really do need to stick together. You'd think we would all know a thing or two about the importance of tolerance around here.
Quote from: Jill F on September 22, 2014, 02:01:35 PM
Yes, get out that transgender umbrella so we don't all get covered in gender fluid (or rotten tomatoes).
Sorry, bad joke. I fully accept non-binary people as part of "the club" and we really do need to stick together. You'd think we would all know a thing or two about the importance of tolerance around here.
Yeah, you would think so huh? Strength in numbers for sure. United we stand, divided we fall and all the other clichés. I really have no idea what I am. One day I am one and ready to go for it and the next I'm the other and kind of apprehensive. So what does that really make me? Other than all messed up. :D
Quote from: Jess42 on September 22, 2014, 02:06:46 PM
Yeah, you would think so huh? Strength in numbers for sure. United we stand, divided we fall and all the other clichés. I really have no idea what I am. One day I am one and ready to go for it and the next I'm the other and kind of apprehensive. So what does that really make me? Other than all messed up. :D
I was there on the fence for a few months myself. Have you tried taking E? That's ultimately what made me realize I belong over on the "F" side.
No. I already have low T levels and am an emotional mess at times. I am thinking really hard but my god, how would I react to E? That is kind of what I am scared or kind of apprehensive of. I mean when I finally opened up to my shrink, she knew. Then the tears came and I bawled like a little girl. She actually told me that I didn't even act like a real guy. ::) So I can all I can to do is say the word and then she will refer me to an Endo. She told me I overplayed my guy persona. She told me it was so far out there and over the top that I was either crazy, or using it to hide my true self. ??? Unfortunately I am still on the fence. It sux 'cause I never had this problem before. Either, both or more of one than the other. Definitely more the female than male. Who knows? It is definitely something I really need to try to figure out.
QuoteQuote from: Ativan Prescribed on Yesterday at 12:25:31 pm
You are consistently and absolutely a part of the problem and lack the intelligence to realize it.
Your words are meaningless and I find your words hollow in content.
This is exactly what divides us. The poster said if something offends to ask and see if it was a misunderstanding. Maybe you should ease your anger a little and try to help with relations between members instead of judging which is something binaries are being accused of.
Absolutely right Jessica.
Ativan Prescribed response is offensive and unduley harsh !
Considering I started this thread to remind people to interact with each other in a respectful and understanding manner, I am very disappointed that members have used this as a way of arguing between each other rather than working together.
Thread locked in sad amazement.