screw it, I don't care.
Well here goes.. I will add my thoughts, even though I'm not 100% certain what to write.?
I re-read that topic you linked to, and it didn't really seem to have any concrete answers to this question.?
In the entire time I've been here, Ive always gotten such a nice vibe here from everyone, but the past few days
since those now closed or removed topics, I've sensed a different ora in the air, kind of a quietness, especially here in the NB section..
Whatever it takes for us to stay on that high road, I'm in 110%, yet I'm not completely certain how to achieve that.?
I think we all are just human, and emotionally many things affect us, and all of us differently... Sometimes this comes out
in certain discussions, but none of us are perfect, as hard as we try to behave towards all others here in the same way we want to be treated..
I liked a point someone else made somewhere here, that we should interact more in the other forums, and invite everyone in the other forums
to interact with us in NB.. I love whats going on in the other forums, and wish we as an entire group be less sectioned into our separate spaces and labeled
forums, and were lumped together a bit more.. But thats just me, maybe others feel different..
I've felt at times as if some haven't been 100% accepted for the path they are on, and noticed hints here and there by some that some of us should
look more ahead towards something else or more, rather than just be content how we feel for now.. This is what I see as unacceptance between us all here.
There are plenty of places to post topics asking for advice, but giving each other advice when none is wanted at the time, is perhaps a problem,
and not lending itself to an atmosphere of total acceptance..? That may not be the high road at times..?
On the other hand, the acceptance, tolerance, love and support I feel here has moved me so much that it has affected how I treat others in the outside real world,
something that has never happened to me before.?
I don't think I have a good answer to your question, except to say YES I want to be part of that high road, and will do anything anyone asks of me to help keep us on it..
Thats all I know how to answer.?
some times, i get a feeling that things would be easier if we could handle triggers better. i have read many threads where i've winfered why people keep arguing with a person after they've said that they have their opinion and this is it. quarrelung or trying too hard to explain thing to someone who doesn't want to unferstand, is pointless. when one person has said that the problematic poster's comments are hurtful, it would be perfectly ok to ignore any further problematic posts from them. let the mods deal with posts that aren't well formulated, instead of adding fuel to the fire.
one thing i often wonder about, is if many trans people actually have had a rather privileged life prior to coming out as transdespete the dysphoria. i grew up in an environment so hostile that i ended up just laughing at insults. triggering me is rather difficult, and if i am triggered by something, i'll usually just step away from the discussion. because all my experience says that answering to a trigger will only make things worse.
well, that's for the types that make people angry. they seem common all over the boards.
we have a different type of problem here though, where people often have fought more than twice as hard a fight to figure it out. we all learn the binary in typical cis education, and even when trans becomes known, traditional transition is often as far from the right answer as one can get. and there's also the problem of balancing, that many of us experience. when a part of oneself sorely need the full transition while another refuses to do even half, and another part fails to make the two agree on anything, it gets really difficult to react to comments that seem to imply denial, with anything other than hurt. we're going through this because we aren't in denial, because we chose to be all that we are. and it feels invalidating when someone else sees only one side, or only sympathizes with the side that would be happier with a full transition.
but this is something we can only hope that others will consider when they post here. we can't expect anyone to actually understand it, we're all so different that an actual good explanation of the non-binary is still out of grasp even to usmost of the time.
I think it helps to look past people's words to their intentions. If they use vocabulary that we find offensive, why do we think they're doing it? Are they actively trying to disparage us, or are they just lacking in knowledge or insight as to how it would affect us? The difference is huge.
I suggest trying to treat every post as if it's honest interest. Until there's an obvious attempt to disparage, I'd claim it's better to treat all posts with respect and provide whatever information might be helpful.
if the posts aren't obviously meant as an offense, and the poster isn't someone who's only there to tell about their own opinion and how that is actually better and a reason to disagree with how someone else chooses to live... it's better to look for the good intentions ir the thirst for knowledge.
for me it also helps to know who i am. nobody can invalidate me, for my own self validation is stronger. some might see a little bit of arrogance in how i describe the world, and how wonderful i find it to know that i am non-binary and free of the familiar cages that many don't see any need to leave. but this really is only confidence that comes from having seen and experienced that i am true. those who wish to learn should be able to see that even if my way is the greatest there is for me, i still don't want anymore from other people than acknowledgement, just as i will acknowledge their experiences.
it's difficult though. a little bit like trying to translate the japanese "aoi", when it pretty much means a blue color that even covers indigo and green. i've seen grass be called blue in english translations becaus it's difficult for most people to understand how colors can be classified so differently from one culture to another.
good communication mostly happens when there is a real intention on both sides to understand the other, rather than insistence on making oneself understood. we don't have similar vocabularies, the same word doesn't mean the same when i use it as when someone else uses it. i still hope the person i talk to will try to understand my explanation, just the same as i will try to understand what it really is they are asking about or trying to describe.
I'm probably outing myself as terminally clueless, but I have no idea what posts Cindy is talking about. In this forum at least (Non-Binary), the only thing I've seen that comes close to what is described was one user who was posting hurtful/annoying posts, and I believe they were evicted. Are hurtful and/or intolerant things being posted and I'm not recognizing it? If so -- that is, if I can't recognize it -- it makes me worry that I'll unthinkingly say things that hurt or trigger other people.
On the other hand, maybe this stuff is going on in a part of the forest I'm never in. If so, I'd like to know where not to go.
Quote from: Asche on September 20, 2014, 03:07:16 PM
Are hurtful and/or intolerant things being posted and I'm not recognizing it? If so -- that is, if I can't recognize it -- it makes me worry that I'll unthinkingly say things that hurt or trigger other people.
On the other hand, maybe this stuff is going on in a part of the forest I'm never in. If so, I'd like to know where not to go.
I think you are not alone in thinking that...
Part of it was that topic you remember and mentioned, any other parts I'm not sure, some are about the different forums not be accepting to one another sometimes..?(Please excuse if I said that wrong).
NOTE: I edited part of this post out, as it wasn't a positive contribution to the subject.. (Mark)
Quote from: Asche on September 20, 2014, 03:07:16 PM
Are hurtful and/or intolerant things being posted and I'm not recognizing it?
This is what I've observed:
* A binary site member was smited for an insensitive comment in the "come play with me" thread.
* A moderator made comments she hoped would be helpful to a non-binary member about whether that person should transition. They were taken as invalidating.
* A binary site member who found out I was non-binary made a comment to me asking my why I'd want GRS.
* Someone who (I believe) was not a member of the site, began posting in the non-binary area asking why we were so sure of our identities. That person's final post implied that being non-binary was not "normal".
There might be more that I'm not privy to.
This may be a bit of a ramble but I hope that it will provide a few more examples of the issues that have arisen, possible reasons and potential solutions. They are ill formed but I wanted to get them down so we can deal with this issue in the best way possible.
It could be that we as humans are uncomfortable with ambiguity. We wish to classify, to enable understanding ahead of interaction, contact and risk. This is problematic for all trans and more so for NB.
As Taka says, language is clumsy and it is contextual. In the absence of shared experience and a common vocabulary there will be misunderstanding. This is inevitable and ill intent should not be assumed or offence taken.
At a broader level, I think that many behaviours are not designed to provoke, but in the main, quite normal social or tribal behavior. Cheerleading, promotion of your own paradigm or narrative typically leads to more members, more supporters, more power, more validation, less doubt, greater vindication, more security, more confidence in your own choices etc.
However I think that there has been a general zeal for promoting one's own narrative and perspective. New members who have just started to understand themselves are being evangelised and assumed or treated as binary or perhaps as NB even when the OP appears to be stating otherwise. Similarly I have found a number of folk confuse NB with the B temporary state which they move through before they present full time as binary. This again is narrative and it comes from applying the lens or explanation that we have used to make sense of our own situations. It goes without saying that this, while not intended as such, is extremely invalidating and disrespectful.
In other instances there has been deliberate bullying, conflating terms to deny legitimacy of the NB and denying, questioning or dismissing the reality of another's lived experience. Apart from ignorance, wilful or otherwise, only nastiness can explain this type of behavior. Explaining a decision by anyone to present as NB or as more androgynous as being merely changing presentation for fashion reasons rather than for authenticity when it could be both, either or neither is designed to provoke. Dismissing, not listening or respecting another's perspective is also damaging.
In many ways Susans rep points have been a very positive community tool in that we self assess and moderate our own behavior without relying on the intercession of leadership. Loss of the rep point log with reasons given has been harmful. This sort of data will generally help you understand the member and their perspective before you hit 'reply'.
I would like to say that we just need to be more supportive, more focused on helping, sustaining and contributing to the OP and to our community but, while true, this does not address Ativan's question.
What is the high road, how do we identify it and how do we ensure that we stay on it. Do we need a manifesto, guiding principles or core values that we design and own to support Susan's intent and our greater interest? Do we think that additional forum features would help? Have we seen something relevant elsewhere on social media? Should we insist that any disagreement be taken to PM? But is this even possible given the nature of this site?
Hope this helps as this site and the members I have 'met' have been a very, very important part of my journey and I honor and thank each and everyone of you.
Safe travels
Aisla
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 20, 2014, 06:26:14 PM
If you find something that is unacceptable to you and your mind is made up about it, it has no place here, it's the low road.
Keeping your personal nonacceptance out of comments and responses would be taking the high road.
Ativan
That is the whole thing right there..! Perfectly said..
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 20, 2014, 06:26:14 PM
What can we do to stay on the high roads and to build better bridges of communication, get rid of barriers, walls that separate?
Ativan
I just go post everywhere, in all the forums I know anything about whats going on there.. I make new friends in other forums a lot, and I really like reading they're issues, and contributing whenever I have something to say..
My gosh, it's not hard, everyone here is beautiful, and going through a special journey, in every forum, in all the topics..! All we have to do is be there, support, encourage, understand... I don't get why it's so hard for some.??
Just me thought...
it's a whole lot about not answering a question with aggression at the poster's misunderstandings. when someone asks, it's vetter to answer the question, instead of attacking the wording. never post in a topic only to attack someone's misconseptions and poor wordings. if wrong things are being said, it is usually because the person doesn't understand or hasn't yet learned. answer the question if you have a good answer, and take the time to politely explain how some wordings and cis/binary concepts are misunderstandings built on misinformation. give someone the time to take in information and learn before attacking. attack is never the best defense if it turns out the one you attacked was a potential friends who could have strengthened your defense.
but it takes time to learn what and why. when non-binary people need so much time to unlearn binary concepts, we can't really expect others to understand things simply because someone explained it. the story sounds so similar to binary stories that it should be consideres rather difficult to understand how our stories come to a different end, or have no end at all.
to othet peopleit would seem like we're trying to live a fairy tale, how do we explain to them that this is actually possible to combine with reality? that magic is real? some people are more willing to accept than others. maybe they also see another story, maybe it takes an ability that not all have developed equally well.
i think a whole lot of the trouble has to do with takung a lack of understanding for invalidation. people want to validate, most really do, but it may come in the wrong form simply because they don't understand. it's like a math equation, if you understand how to find the answer, you'll get it right every time. but if you don't understand how to do it, you only have the answers to the few problems you've seen. it's best not to be offended when people try, even when they find the wrong answer. even though i understand many will be hurt when it gets as personal as this.
Quote from: Taka on September 21, 2014, 06:06:29 AM
to other people it would seem like we're trying to live a fairy tale, how do we explain to them that this is actually possible to combine with reality? that magic is real? some people are more willing to accept than others. maybe they also see another story, maybe it takes an ability that not all have developed equally well.
I've noticed this also personally, as well as towards some others.. Well put.. :)
I seem to be closer to being on a similar path in my journey to you Taka than anyone else here.. Thank you for answering so many questions I have had with really thought provoking replies..
...
For me now, this topic made by the author is worn out, and I don't really want to participate any further.. After watching last night as the last several replies (now deleted) exploded into more name calling and unacceptance, I realize these high road/low road ideals are unattainable in any permanent form..? We all are just human, we say things on occasion that we shouldn't, we apologize and make things smoother if we can, then we move on, back to business as usual here, which for most of us, is trying our best, as imperfect as that will always be...
Good bye topic... ???
I believe every one of the posts here deserve a +10 ,you have all went the extra mile and I respect that.
Every one of us on this forum has one thing in common we are all different, not really male and not really female but somewhere on a gray scale in between the two.Our minds direct towards one or the other but also at times very close to the middle and we straddle both sides and do it comfortably.Each of us occupies our own distinct place on the scale, some of us close together some far apart and each deserves respect from the others for their decisions.
Emotions play such a large part in how we feel and react to perceived triggers they can be our downfall, for we react without thinking and at times hurt people with our words just because we don't understand what they truly are trying to say.
I was taught something about crossing a street when very young and realized later how important it is in everyday life, stop, look and listen I believe if we all took that approach things would be better. Look at both sides of a statement not just your side try to understand what the other person is saying and when in doubt do nothing.If negativity is fed it will flourish if not it will die.
May God bless us all . Patty
I think people need to be aware that binary privilege is actually a thing, it's the privilege of knowing where you fit within societies simplistic notions of gender, and this exists for both trans and cis individuals. Binary thinking reduces gender to an either or choice, but it doesn't reflect non binary experiences, our lives and paths - as different as they are individual - go against the status Q of gender. There are many cis folk who never even think about gender, and many trans folk who only think of gender within the accepted binary paradigm. Our world is saturated with black and white notions of gender and I think that can colour the thinking of binary identified individuals, often perceiving things that go against the enforced narrative of binary gender as being a threat to that construct. This can create defensive attitudes in binary individuals when it comes to NB experiences, it's people scared of something that they don't understand reacting in a negative way because they believe it invalidates their identity - which is utter BS, but that's how peoples minds work.
While I think that we as non binary individuals can help educate binary identified individuals, I don't necessarily think that we should - the reason there are different forums here is because different people have different experiences of being trans, I view them more as safe spaces rather than educational one. This forum is for us to figure out our paths, not for holding the hands of people who "want to understand". Talk of the high road is admirable, but I don't think we should tone police ourselves, if someone comes in here and starts waving privilege around and invalidating our experiences, then that is an act of violence - micro-aggressions I think they're called - constant little reminders by the world that we don't fit the enforced narrative. Getting angry is a perfectly reasonable response to this kind of thing, and while it can be destructive it also drives change.
As to what we can do about, well we need binary identified individuals to respect our lived experiences, that is fundamental to understanding things that are currently outside your knowledge. When people respect other people's experiences and listen without trying to tell them what they "need" to do, that's a healthy environment for learning and growing. Sadly this is not always the case, so what to do about times when people feel under attack? I think the best thing we can do is to try our best to judge intent, people can be well meaning but still wave their privilege stick around, or they can be acting in a deliberately antagonistic way, or anywhere in between. It's a tough thing to call, but we have to use judgement and abide by ToS, PMing individuals is better than public mud flinging, mods can be BCC'd if needs be, posts can be reported, mods do try and keep the peace as best they can (I should know, I used to be one), even if the mod team appears to be lacking in NB perspectives (this is not an attack, merely an observation, I know how hard the job is).
Anyway, that's my radical queer, anarcha-feminist perspective on things.
well, an attack is an attack, and it's ok to defend oneself. but i'm still thinking that if one member has told the problem poster that they're out of line, that should be enough. the whole community don't have to add their own aggressive defense. and if you have already told someone off, it would be better to not answer another attack from the same person in the same post, it's better to simply report the post. for the sake of some peace and quiet, less flame wars, and good support.
there was recently a post by a very distressed woman in the trangender forums, that was attacked by way too many, because she hadn't educated herself properly before asking for help. one post from her was answered by almost countless retaliations against something that was not even a threat. just bad wordings because she didn't know better, she'd never learned and had never had reason to either, before something very distressing happened. one lone and distressed woman, up against a whole community of aggressive defense that wasn't even needed.
it's ok to get angry, but even that can be done with some moderation. there's no need to tell people they're idiots for not understanding. do that to a kid in school, and they will only learn to hate their teacher, not how to solve the problem. if you can't find a non-aggressive way to formulate a retaliation, it's better to not write anything and let someone else tell the poster what they did wrong. or just sleep on it. topic might have already gotten locked before you wake up though.
Yeah, it's always better to report posts rather than attacking as it just makes the Mods job harder.
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 20, 2014, 05:00:29 PM
* A moderator made comments she hoped would be helpful to a non-binary member about whether that person should transition. They were taken as invalidating.
This one is on me! :embarrassed: I meant no harm though as the OP was having issue's with leading three different lives and the stress it was placing. I merely gave advice to live as the true person they are and get out of the mess of trying to keep all the separate identities together which can be impossible to do. I was attempting to help, not judge, but it was taken that way by others and not the OP who agreed in part.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 21, 2014, 12:58:58 PM
I think people need to be aware that binary privilege is actually a thing, it's the privilege of knowing where you fit within societies simplistic notions of gender, and this exists for both trans and cis individuals.
I have never heard of binary privilege myself. I merely gave advice to someone whose own words echoed mine from years ago. The OP was stressing out and breaking down with the weight of three different personalities this person was trying to live with. I merely used my own experience with this and suggested it was time to move on to another level of transition to ease the pain and mental fatigue. The OPs last few topics had displayed a large amount of anguish, pain and mental exhaustion caused by trying to be everything for everyone. I merely tried to suggest it was time for a decision one way or another before the OP broke down. That was meant as true concern and compassion, not enforcing some kind of privilege. Why was my message so intense? I had received many PMs from others worried about the OP and they thought I could get through to the OP. This was taken by our non binary members as an attack on their beliefs and identity. :(
i'm not too sure you're the one who was poking around with your privilege stick the most in here, jessica. we've had visitors who really felt more like intruders, and i don't see you as one of those.
i think we should talk a little more about support vs advice again, maybe i'll send a pm.
Comments were about behaviour within the larger community and society as a whole, and not aimed at specific individuals, and certainly not aimed at you Jessica.