Got a weird question.
I'm as stealth as anyone, my family know, of my friends only 2 that I'm aware of know that I'm post op trans.
Anyway, one of my friends is dating a guy, who is very funny at times, but on our trip to Thailand for a wedding made a number of transphobic comments and i've noticed that he's still doing it.
I've pulled him up a few times, but beating on the point is starting to look like I'm keen on the subject.
Its a hard one, while we get along and part of this girls life, the transphobic comments really have me questioning whether he's a friend I want in my life.
One of the comments he made was about a she-male (talking about porn), a term I hate.
one of my friends did tell him to stop it cause he's coming off very homophobic and he laughed.
Sounds like someone may be in denial
I don't think it's that, he's a few years older than her. He's also from a tougher area where most of my friends are from an area that's very LGTBAIW friendly. My best friends school was the first in Australia to ban degrading use of the word gay, that was 20 years ago.
All i know is that peoplee who talk way too much about something means they have some form of interest. Your friend seems to talk a lot about trans girls for someone who says he doesn't like them.
Just my experience ;)
Quote from: Nicole on November 12, 2014, 08:12:15 PM
Got a weird question.
I'm as stealth as anyone, my family know, of my friends only 2 that I'm aware of know that I'm post op trans.
Anyway, one of my friends is dating a guy, who is very funny at times, but on our trip to Thailand for a wedding made a number of transphobic comments and i've noticed that he's still doing it.
I've pulled him up a few times, but beating on the point is starting to look like I'm keen on the subject.
Its a hard one, while we get along and part of this girls life, the transphobic comments really have me questioning whether he's a friend I want in my life.
One of the comments he made was about a she-male (talking about porn), a term I hate.
one of my friends did tell him to stop it cause he's coming off very homophobic and he laughed.
I know she-male is used as a derogatory term at times but I see it used more often to refer to a type of porn fetish and a cis guy would probably have more exposure to it being used in porn too rather than hearing the term being used to degrade trans women. If it's something that he's constantly bringing up for no reason then chances are it's a fetish that he's into and he's looking for a safe way to bring it up and talk about it under the guise of making fun of it.
It's not that he always brings it up, it's just that he seems to be the one who does.
I'm also talking about in general, could be a story on tv about a trans person and people start talking about it,
I say you ought to stick up for what you believe in here. Witholding truth may not be unethical in a situation like this (Personally, I'd kill for the chance to stealth), but saying nothing is wrong. I think that as trans women, we have a responsibility to defend our sisters, even if it's just by correcting an asinine biggot.
This attitude of mine is not the product of an entitled culture. It's the product of a marginalized one. I'm not going to smite you with this. I don't really get why you're being so aggressive over this though...it was an honest comment. We all owe our community something-we owe the people who came before us respect, and the kids who are going to come after us help. The only way a community as small and disadvantaged as our survives is by taking care of our own, even if it's in as small a way as standing up for what's right. If we can't look beyond ourselves, our movement is doomed.
Listen-you are not compromising yourself by defending someone else. I'm not saying she ought to out herself, that's not what I'm saying at all. Hell, I wouldn't do that to prove a point. What I do mean is that we all have a shared responsibility to stand up for what is right, and if someone is defaming one of us, we should stand up for them, even if it's not in a way that involves divulging our trans status. That's all...to me, it really is a moral issue.
Oi. Spoken like a truly bitter person. Listen, in the unlikely event I ever get to that point, stealth, I will not hesitate to stand up for what is right. It is perfectly possible to be a decent human being and not out yourself. If a cis woman said something, people wouldn't all of a sudden think she's trans. If you look good enough for stealth, chances are you could easily say something. And yet, so many people choose not to, and it's a disservice to us all.
You talk about standing up for yourself...well, when someone makes derogatory comments about one trans person, they're insulting us all. Including you. They are saying that people like you are invalid, and unworthy of their identities. Our identities. I say our, because the individual cannot make the world a substantially improved place. Attitudes are changing, and they are changing because many individuals cis as well as trans are finally gathering the courage to just say something. I feel bad for you, that you don't feel secure enough to take part in that. And I sincerely hope you find yourself in a place where you might be able to make the world a bit more open minded.
Anyhow, take what you will from this...I don't want to get into a war over this. But in my mind, there is no greater sin than apathy. Nothing has caused humanity in general as much harm as apathy.
Ok, if I was to start over today, everybody would know and I would scream it loud & proud.
However I came out when I was a teenager, at a time when trans people were freaks because of shows like Jerry Springer & Rikki Lake, so when I came out, after years of bullying, after being bashed by boys at my school for being a "sissy" a word that to this day tears me up when I hear it, my mother packed us up, we moved back to her home state and we started a life where I was born female, always lived as female and my new friends only knew me as female.
The ones who know, my family and 2 of my very best & closest friends know for many reasons, one held my hand as I woke after SRS.
The only regret I have is that I've not told my unbelievable amazing group of friends and that I've lied to them all this time.
I also know that all wouldn't think twice if I told them that I was trans, but I would lose friends for lying to them all this time.
So my stealthiness is not because I'm hiding that I'm trans, it's because I don't want the people in my life that I love to think I've lied to them for 15 years
I am going to make some personal observations here based on more than forty years of having lived a relatively normal, and exceedingly satisfying. life as the simple older woman I have grown to become. As I type this, I am on my way home from a delightfully pleasant visit with my husband's son, his son's wife and their two children, our grandchildren.
Happiness is watching the smile on my husband's face as his five year old grand daughter strokes his beard and says, "so soft...", or pats on his stomach, smiling and laughing and squealing, "Belly!"
Happiness is watching our son, (Yes! I now have a son and, a daughter-in-law)...play with his daughter, threatening to put her inside his belly while she laughs and screams in delight.
Happiness is watching our now 14 y/o grandson mature into a strapping young man excelling in soccer and his academic pursuits. He has joined NROTC his Freshman ear in HS and plans to go to college on a military scholarship to study computer sciences
These are just a few of the simple joys that come with leaving all things trans* far behind us and long forgotten. These are the hard earned rewards that Androgenouspainter "would kill for".
Do not feel guilty for your hard won success. Relish it. Revel in it and pass it on if you can. Do not be seduced by some siren's song, attempting to lay a guilt trip born of jealous envy upon you. You owe these cyber strangers nothing! You, who have made it to that almost mythical land of "stealth" and return to offer a hand of help or a word of advice...what have you received in return for your troubles?
My question to you all is, "What is trans*?" Is it some perpetual state of being? Is it some "identity" different for all, yet sufficiently tangible and/or homogenous to form a "community", to which you owe some allegiance?
I did not correct my physical deformities to join some club or "community" where others tell me who I am or how to think, or to whom "I owe some debt". No! I went through my own personal hell, (without "their" help, thankyouverymuch), so that I could live MY life, MY way, as the happy, getting older grandma that I am, and enjoy MY life with my man and our family , without some "wanna-be activist in training" telling me I owe some nebulous and essentially non-existent "community" some unspecified debt of servitude or "respect".
This is your life to make of it what you will. Like anything else in this life, you will have to learn what is right for you and work for it. Those of you who have had it relatively easy, and have been blessed with parental support from early on, do not throw that precious gift of personal privacy away lightly based on the words of a stranger. Once it is gone, it will be gone forever. Use your head and do what is right for you.
Sorry... didn't catch the parts about having basically tried already, but he's still doing it anyway.
Never mind then.
If you've already said something and he's still doing the same damned thing, and others are calling him out on being homophobic now and he's just laughing about it, forget him, some people just don't want to change.
You don't owe anyone anything just because they are trans. If it bothers you personally, mention it but if you are stealth then you can also say you know someone else. Or let it be.
There are no other trans than you who is bothered by it, because he says it at moments he thinks there are no transgenders around. I told people about transgenders about the past and to them they were just sissies. When I came out they just said that was typical guy talk. Some men think they have to have certain thoughts.
Read up on intersectional feminism, it should give you to tools to correct him without needing to out yourself to make your point.
And could we call it trans antagonism, calling it a phobia is ableist.
Quote from: Myarkstir on November 12, 2014, 08:34:32 PM
All i know is that peoplee who talk way too much about something means they have some form of interest. Your friend seems to talk a lot about trans girls for someone who says he doesn't like them.
Just my experience ;)
haha you don't know how right you are ..... sometimes they are testing the waters to see how others react and information they can find, otherwise.
As a person, you have an obligation to stand up for others. It has nothing to do with being transgender. Some people fail at it much more spectacularly than others.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 13, 2014, 09:46:53 AM
As a person, you have an obligation to stand up for others. It has nothing to do with being transgender. Some people fail at it much more spectacularly than others.
Damn right.
Quote from: Nicole on November 13, 2014, 03:06:23 AM
The only regret I have is that I've not told my unbelievable amazing group of friends and that I've lied to them all this time.
If you've allowed them to believe you're a woman, you haven't lied. You ARE a woman.
If I don't tell people that I had some other medical condition, would I be lying? No, because no has a right to my history until I'm ready to share it with them.
Why should being trans be any different?
Reap what ye shall sow.
I think you're in a hard situation but it wouldn't jeopardize your stealth by saying something. I imagine being stealth for 15 years has it's pitfalls. Obviously, it's awesome but I can see your dillema. Most of my close friends know I'm IS but no one ever thinks I'm MAAB and if, or when, I'm in a similar situation, I could see myself saying nothing. But I say nothing to all kinds of comments so I'm just a wuss in general.
I would just keep doing what you're doing and if the situation arrises where you could say something and have it MATTER (ie get thru to him), do it. If not, I don't think you should fault yourself. You can be silent and proud. I am.
Now that I think of it, I was in a similar situation. My BF's friend said something about prostitutes where he lives and then said "ya gott be careful cause some of them be ->-bleeped-<-s...." or something I didn't say a word. He expected me to laugh with him but my BF and I just knda grinned. So yeah. I didn't know what to do. I pass well and it prob wouldn't have hurt that, but there's that little voice..."just be quiet..."
I wish I could say something but it's just not who I am. I'm pretty demure in general so it's tough...
I just tell people I have close friends who are transgender, and I've seen what they go through, so I know X, Y, and Z. Or I could say that I saw a YouTube video on the topic, I always refer people to Laverne Cox because she is one of the few positive representations we have. There are some resources out there I'd never show another person because they'd get the totally wrong idea.
Quote from: suzifrommd on November 13, 2014, 01:38:37 PM
If you've allowed them to believe you're a woman, you haven't lied. You ARE a woman.
If I don't tell people that I had some other medical condition, would I be lying? No, because no has a right to my history until I'm ready to share it with them.
Why should being trans be any different?
My thoughts exactly
Nicole, this is your life and you need to do what makes you comfortable.
If I were in your situation, I would likely work to correct this person but not go so far as to out myself.
Due to my own situation, I am not and likely never can be stealth (age, adult children, grandchildren, etc.) though I also do not "shout it from the rooftops" and thus far I am accepted as a woman wherever I go. I will tell someone if I feel that is beneficial and proper for me to do and so far that boils down to close friends. If I were to get into a romantic relationship, I would ensure this is disclosed at some point before intimacy became an issue.
But because of a transphobic acquaintance? I think I'd just occasionally remind them that they are being homophobic and/or transphobic.
I might even try to embarrass them and ask if they have a personal fetish about "chicks with dicks" since they mention it so often and if it gets them off? That might frighten him into realizing how he's sounding and at least quiet him down. I doubt he's going to change his personal perspective short of some personal epiphany. All that you can do is plant seeds of doubt, so no, if I were you I would not risk my stealth status just for one transphobic jerk.
Quote from: Nicole on November 13, 2014, 03:06:23 AM
Ok, if I was to start over today, everybody would know and I would scream it loud & proud.
However I came out when I was a teenager, at a time when trans people were freaks because of shows like Jerry Springer & Rikki Lake, so when I came out, after years of bullying, after being bashed by boys at my school for being a "sissy" a word that to this day tears me up when I hear it, my mother packed us up, we moved back to her home state and we started a life where I was born female, always lived as female and my new friends only knew me as female.
The ones who know, my family and 2 of my very best & closest friends know for many reasons, one held my hand as I woke after SRS.
The only regret I have is that I've not told my unbelievable amazing group of friends and that I've lied to them all this time.
I also know that all wouldn't think twice if I told them that I was trans, but I would lose friends for lying to them all this time.
So my stealthiness is not because I'm hiding that I'm trans, it's because I don't want the people in my life that I love to think I've lied to them for 15 years
Getting back to you and your concerns Nicole, under the circumstances you are one of the few women living stealth that should never acknowledge your past to anyone, there would be no need to ever, and it would only open your life up to unneeded pain, criticism and loss of a few friends. The ongoing undercurrent of speculation within the group of friends that remained would be awful and something you needn't endure. Moreover you needn't become defensive of people in the GLBTI world other than to mention that it is in poor taste for anyone to make unseemly remarks and comments about people who are different. Your make friend is either a fetishist or is on a fishing expedition at your expense, if I was in your stead I would avoid him.
Good luck sweetie, you deserve your privacy and to have life devoid of any unwanted BS.
Guys, you have to be blind to think that no trans has helped you on your journey... You were only able to change your name because some trans people fought for it, way back. You were only able to have a good endocrinologist prescribing you hormones because someone made tansexuals visible to the world and to doctors... If you came in today as a guy to an endocrinologist, no endocrinologist would prescribe you hormones, when would someone give a man the wrong hormones?? They'd treat you for some mental disease... Surgeons... No reputable Surgeons would give you a boob job! It'd be unethical. SRS ??? we wouldn't even know what that is... Thanks to the older trans we now have SRS, and good SRS, because back when it started it was experimental, and it's thanks to many of us getting them done that Surgeons are able to specialize on it and give us even better results. If society somewhat accepts us today, if we have any laws in our favor, if we are accepted at work as trans, if some companies pay for our surgeries themselves, this is only because of the trans people who made us visible and who fought for our rights... And if you, I, many of us are stealth, it is only because of those women.
Be stealth as much as you want, I also am. But don't be ungrateful. Realize we're only here thanks to the activists, the people who put themselves in danger, got killed even. The people who fought hard so we could have an "easy", safe stealth life today.
As this was not directed to Nicole, let's go back to the original topic:
I also live stealth and It also bugs me when people say something transphobic and I try to play the intellectual girl, the one who tries to understand everything. In your case, though, I'd tell him to quit being a douchebag... If you have gay friends it makes it look more OK for you to defend LGBT people. Tell him that it makes you uncomfortable being around someone who keeps throwing hate... Tell him it's weird that he cares/talks so much about ->-bleeped-<-s, "maybe you're actually into them" and laugh it off, it'll probably make him stop :p
Nicole is in a unique spot and should not ever compromise herself. I do agree through that there are those of us who are never far from where we first got in this bed that we can't and should speak up as transdgenered people in defense of others and ourselves always.
Honestly there are sadly too many opportunities in my life to stick up for Trans people or, for that matter, any marginalized group of people. I regret when I did not have the fortitude or energy to address them. Each journey is unique but we are all called to address injustice especially when we have the means to make a difference.
I appreciate your awareness and that you care enough to bring the issue up
I have no concern with being out in most situations (where its not dangerous), so my perspective on it would be slightly skewed from one who is attempted to stay stealth. If pushed I'd just admit my trans-status and go from there. It really wouldn't phase me or ruin my day at all if someone discovered I was trans unless it greatly effected my employment or housing. That being said I'm unintentionally stealth to most people in my life.
Typically I'll try to lightly steer them towards acceptance by making a more open-minded trans statement back to them. Something like "well, I don't see anything wrong with that" or "they're just trying to live their lives man... why you gotta be hating on them?" Sometimes both.
This is such a tough situation...
I absolutely agree that the OP has no obligation to potentially put herself in a position to reveal her personal history. If she has concerns that pushing the issue might reveal her as a "trans woman" and she is (rightfully) worried about the common perceptions (and misperceptions) that still exist regarding trans people, then I completely support that decision. If it is because she feels she will be perceived as a liar for the past 15 years, I fully support that, too.
I understand nobody was actually telling her to out herself for the sake of responding to one ignorant bigot, but the implication was that if she didn't do something, then she was somehow "ungrateful" or failing to do her "duty" as a trans person. I have to say, there are a lot of other ways she can be (and I am sure she is) an activist for trans issues and contribute to the "cause" without having to risk outing herself. "Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor," as Shakespeare would say.
As for her actual question on how to deal with the situation while minimizing (or eliminating) the risks of discovery, there were some good ideas...mostly related to his potential proclivity for trans women or ways to embarrass him into being quiet. However, that is not actually educating him or trying to help him understand how hateful, hurtful and bigoted his thinking is. Regardless of the situation, this is a very difficult thing to do, and is often easier said than done. Someone mentioned referring him to a person like Laverne Cox, but I don't think I completely agree with that (which might be a question for another forum...). Are there any other constructive ideas on how to help people change their perceptions of trans persons (short of being a good example yourself)?
Quote from: gabimoneratt on November 15, 2014, 11:18:11 AM
As this was not directed to Nicole, let's go back to the original topic:
I also live stealth and It also bugs me when people say something transphobic and I try to play the intellectual girl, the one who tries to understand everything. In your case, though, I'd tell him to quit being a douchebag... If you have gay friends it makes it look more OK for you to defend LGBT people. Tell him that it makes you uncomfortable being around someone who keeps throwing hate... Tell him it's weird that he cares/talks so much about ->-bleeped-<-s, "maybe you're actually into them" and laugh it off, it'll probably make him stop :p
You have a good point Gabi and invariably that is usually the case when they continue on about something like that.
Quote from: Wendywishes on November 15, 2014, 05:36:02 PM
I understand nobody was actually telling her to out herself for the sake of responding to one ignorant bigot, but the implication was that if she didn't do something, then she was somehow "ungrateful" or failing to do her "duty" as a trans person.
Wait, before this gets out of context I never said Nicole is ungrateful, cuz I truly don't think she is... I just read some posts of people saying they owe nothing to the community and that they have gotten through their transition without the community's help. Sure, might not have been direct help, but everything I said is still true. And it all bugged me because it's like ignoring everything that other trans women did to us and saying that they have done everything themselves. The only reason we are able to be stealth is thanks to the other trans women who made our issues visible and fought for our rights. That's all. Nicole actually wanted to stand up somehow to trans people, and as I said, this was not intended to her. That's all :)
Quote from: gabimoneratt on November 15, 2014, 05:57:14 PM
Wait, before this gets out of context I never said Nicole is ungrateful, cuz I truly don't think she is... I just read some posts of people saying they owe nothing to the community and that they have gotten through their transition without the community's help. Sure, might not have been direct help, but everything I said is still true. And it all bugged me because it's like ignoring everything that other trans women did to us and saying that they have done everything themselves. The only reason we are able to be stealth is thanks to the other trans women who made our issues visible and fought for our rights. That's all. Nicole actually wanted to stand up somehow to trans people, and as I said, this was not intended to her. That's all :)
I apologize gabimoneratt...I did not intend to target you! The sentiment was brought up in a broader context than just the OP's issue, and I brought it all together in my response. I think I just got caught up in the heat of the debate over the obligation to act versus the right to abstain. I do agree with you 100% that the only reason we are where we are today, whether it be trans rights or landing a spacecraft on a comet, is because we are "standing on the shoulders of giants." Thank you for making that point!
Quote from: Hanazono on November 15, 2014, 10:07:16 AM
I'm going to say it bluntly. feel free to smite me.
I apologize in advance for the offense I will cause by my observation and interpretation of truth.
it's people who have no stealth who are all for speaking up. I am not going to exclude anyone or divide the trans star community here, but really the original topic was addressed to people in stealth .
would that make every response by non stealth persons moot?
Maybe a similar analogy would be attending a group support for say, icythiosis sufferers (I have this ) but having the discussion hijacked by a (group of ) non icythiosis sufferer(s) who is(are) frequently plagued by migraines.
I find your assumption that the only reason people would want to stick up for trans issues and individuals is that the struggle to be perceived as female. I know plenty of cis women who are vocal about trans issues, so your petty minded reasoning is just that. Petty.
There's this little thing called empathy, you may have heard of it.
I am in fear of commenting further so I will reiterate my original response.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 17, 2014, 07:20:25 PM
I find your assumption that the only reason people would want to stick up for trans issues and individuals is that the struggle to be perceived as female. I know plenty of cis women who are vocal about trans issues, so your petty minded reasoning is just that. Petty.
There's this little thing called empathy, you may have heard of it.
Other than this forum, Facebook and one half hour at a trans group which sent me home in tears (one of the reasons I don't have much to do with the community), Ive had nothing to do with trans issues & causes.
I'm sorry for that, I have been stealth since the day I went full time, most of my closest friends, who I have known for almost 20 years haven't got a clue.
These days I do what I can, but its not just trans causes.
I stand up for what I believe is right, if someone said a sexist comment around me they're in for a fight, a trans comment, they're in for a fight, a racist comment, they're in for a fight.
One of the reasons I believe I've been stealth for all these years is because of what I've done, I don't go out of my way to meet other transpeople, I feel bad about that, but I've often thought one of the easiest ways to get clocked is by being around other trans people.
The topic I started here was how do you deal with trans issues when stealth.
I've chatted to my best friend, one of the very few people in my life that knows my whole history and even she thinks that sticking up too much for trans issues can lead to questions.
When I came out, I was in high school, I was young and like so many my age will tell you, our exposure to trans people were on trash TV talk shows.
These days there are so many role models, who are women first and trans second, these people are educating the public and that can only lead to good.
Yes I feel bad for those who aren't stealth and it does seem on these pages at the very least that its them sticking up for the issue, but the way people attack those who are stealth is just as bad, to say we don't care about our community, that because we pass and blend in we are leaving you behind is wrong, it's "stealth-shaming".
Quote from: Hanazono on November 17, 2014, 08:23:24 PM
Completely agree with you on all of your post especially this part.
Me too though I am not stealth and never will be. I believe that Nicole is a prime example of someone who should never out herself under any circumstances, she has a good life and is regarded as fully cis by her friends and associates, to announce to the other girls, "guess what I'm trans and I've been lying to you girls for 15 - 20 years," how stupid would that be?
Quote from: Shantel on November 17, 2014, 08:30:02 PM
...to announce to the other girls, "guess what I'm trans and I've been lying to you girls for 15 - 20 years," how stupid would that be?
I agree. That would be insanely stupid.
Quote from: Nicole on November 17, 2014, 08:16:43 PM
Other than this forum, Facebook and one half hour at a trans group which sent me home in tears (one of the reasons I don't have much to do with the community), Ive had nothing to do with trans issues & causes.
I'm sorry for that, I have been stealth since the day I went full time, most of my closest friends, who I have known for almost 20 years haven't got a clue.
These days I do what I can, but its not just trans causes.
I stand up for what I believe is right, if someone said a sexist comment around me they're in for a fight, a trans comment, they're in for a fight, a racist comment, they're in for a fight.
One of the reasons I believe I've been stealth for all these years is because of what I've done, I don't go out of my way to meet other transpeople, I feel bad about that, but I've often thought one of the easiest ways to get clocked is by being around other trans people.
The topic I started here was how do you deal with trans issues when stealth.
I've chatted to my best friend, one of the very few people in my life that knows my whole history and even she thinks that sticking up too much for trans issues can lead to questions.
When I came out, I was in high school, I was young and like so many my age will tell you, our exposure to trans people were on trash TV talk shows.
These days there are so many role models, who are women first and trans second, these people are educating the public and that can only lead to good.
Yes I feel bad for those who aren't stealth and it does seem on these pages at the very least that its them sticking up for the issue, but the way people attack those who are stealth is just as bad, to say we don't care about our community, that because we pass and blend in we are leaving you behind is wrong, it's "stealth-shaming".
It wasn't directed at you Hun, you quite obviously care, it was directed at a single hurtful individual.
And for what it's worth it's very rare that I'm read as anything other than cis, and I'm capable if being vocal in support of trans issues without needing to out myself. Unless of course I want to.
Quote from: Hanazono on November 17, 2014, 08:00:30 PM
cis women don't risk having their cis identity questioned. I understand you identify as non binary. Scroll up to see topic.
Your logic is flawed, if you are perceived as FAAB and cis, why would you have your identity questioned if other cis women aren't? Unless of course talking about trans issues makes you question your identity, in which case I wouldn't be so quick to attack others.
I may be non-binary, but I also fully medically transitioned MtF a number of years ago and only get read as trans if I out myself. I find your belief that anyone who would stick up for trans rights and individuals, would only do it because they aren't able to fit it deeply insulting and extremely callous. There are many reasons people would speak out about trans rights, not least because trans-misogyny and trans-antagonism hurt all women.
I don't think the whole argument has been about stealth shaming... I am stealth, one of the biggest reasons why i am stealth is safety, or else i can be one of the LGBT people killed every 26 hours in my country for a single reason: hatred.
With that said, what really bugged me was people thinking their transition was all because of them, no help from other trans whatsoever and that they owe nothing to trans people... hell, if it weren't for Roberta Close and some other trans icons or trans people who fought for rights in my country i don't even freaking know if I'd still be alive. Changing documents is a lot harder here in comparison to North America and Europe, so even though i pass, whenever i have to show my ID people find out. That being said, if it weren't for trans women who fought for us to have free treatment, idk where I would be... I never found a good gender specialized therapist in Rio, other than mine who actually was thrown into it because the public health system started to consider transition and SRS the cure for "transexualism". Secondly, i would live my university life in hell because of name issues... thanks to the trans who fought for the so called "social name", I don't have to panic anymore because i know they won't call me by my old name in front of the entire class like they have done on my first 2 semesters (and i felt like poop for that...) I now have a student ID that states my name thanks to the ones who fought for it.
for me to say i owe nothing to anyone???? THIS is what I think is wrong. Be stealth, don't be an activist, but be thankful. Thanks to them we get to be stealth, thanks to them we get to have a much better life than we would have without them... and realize that they do far more than us for the younger trans girls that are to come...so they can have an even easier life, so that they can be stealth if they choose to, unlike many older trans women... because if it weren't for them probably there would be no such thing as stealth :)
Quote from: Hanazono on November 18, 2014, 08:34:48 AM
maybe you don't appreciate or understand the different risks and culture of where I'm at.
I suggest you get off your high horse of idealism and know, not in every land, being vocal or visible or having trans activism gets what we deserve.
some of us have to work for it. so please respect our risk aversion as much as I respect your free choice.
you can do whatever you like, as can anyone in a free world, but I would like to respectfully remind you that you never have the right to mandate what people should or should not do.
it's ironic I have to say this, because in the stealth shamers have trodden all over the rights and free will of those who elect to remain silent, in their pursuit of drumming up vocal support
I'm not shaming people who chose to be stealth, I'm shaming you, personally, for your lack of empathy and callousness. There is a world of difference between wanting to be able to discuss trans issues without outing yourself, and saying that you owe nothing to the trans community.
I have nothing but respect for Nicole, because she is prepared to make her voice heard, as a woman. But you don't need to be trans for trans-misogyny and trans-antagonism to be issues that affect you, because they affect all women.
:police:
No more personal attacks will be permitted under TOS. This is being monitored closely and will be locked and warning levels issued if this continues.
"Be stealth, don't be an activist, but be thankful. Thanks to them we get to be stealth, thanks to them we get to have a much better life than we would have without them... and realize that they do far more than us for the younger trans girls that are to come...so they can have an even easier life, so that they can be stealth if they choose to, unlike many older trans women... because if it weren't for them probably there would be no such thing as stealth :)"
From the mouths of babes...
This post is so depressing. The amount of privilege blindness here is just making me sick, as is this underlying notion that all of you are "better" than those of us who for whatever reason don't have the luxury of stealth (and I've heard that directly stated by one of you in a PM). I'm not even interested in this conversation, just exhausted and sick of people who keep saying that their way is the right way, and that stealth is the best thing someone can be.
Frankly, I think a lot of the people here are shaming those of us who aren't, can't, and will never be able to blend in. Please, check yourselves. I'm trying to be as civil as everyone else here, but this whole topic has me more than a bit angry.
I see no shaming at all, just disagreements. This topic has provided some facts.
1. There are those who are in imminent danger if they are discovered. Very true.
2. The trans people of the past got us where we are today. Very true.
3. We should all respect those who choose stealth. Very true.
4. Stealth members should be thankful for those of us who are out and open. Very true.
Stealth and open trans people are in a symbiotic relationship. EXTREMELY TRUE. :)
This wasn't directed at you...you've not at all been on that tangent. But there is this underlying mentality of superiority and shaming of those who do not pass/stealth here, not from you but plenty of others.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 18, 2014, 01:47:58 PM
This wasn't directed at you...you've not at all been on that tangent. But there is this underlying mentality of superiority and shaming of those who do not pass/stealth here, not from you but plenty of others.
I know that was not directed at me. :)
I just did not want anyone to overlook the facts that have come out during debate. I personally see no shaming at all, disagreements, but no shaming. I do hope the younger, more passable members do not look down on those of us who don't well. If they do that is on them. You are always going to have ungrateful people anywhere over any topic. I personally love seeing those here who pass without a doubt because I know they will never have to go through what we did. If they are grateful for our open lives helping them achieve their goals I am happy. If anyone tries to shame or place a non passable person on a lower level we have TOS against that and action will be taken. :)
Quote from: Hanazono on November 13, 2014, 02:50:43 AM
I don't owe anyone in any community.
Members may disagree with this, but I feel it is a true statement. None of us owe each other at all. Things are better though when we care for each other, but the poster is not in a position to do this for safety concerns.
Quote from: Samantha007 on November 18, 2014, 02:01:59 PM
Same goes gor hanazono, if you are that stealth and passable then no one will suspect anything about you. They will just see you as a ciswoman who stands up for good values!
The problem is she is not in a position to take that chance.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 13, 2014, 03:03:09 AM
Listen, in the unlikely event I ever get to that point, stealth, I will not hesitate to stand up for what is right.
I do not support this as one never knows how they will react until it does happen. Sure, you can imagine that you would do it I am not saying you will not stand up for trans issue's, but until you are at that point, who knows. :)
My career was filled with what would you do's, but things happen that are unexpected in life.
Quote from: Samantha007 on November 18, 2014, 02:01:59 PM
Very simple! If you are that passable and have been stealth for the last 20 something years, then you can freely defend trans issues and stand up for them without being suspected of being one!....I have never been suspected of anything! Same goes gor hanazono, if you are that stealth and passable then no one will suspect anything about you.
There are some mighty big "if's" in this statement. IMHO it is arrogantly presumptuous to ass-u-me that what works for you will/should work for all.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 18, 2014, 01:30:48 PM
This post is so depressing. The amount of privilege blindness here is just making me sick, as is this underlying notion that all of you are "better" than those of us who for whatever reason don't have the luxury of stealth (and I've heard that directly stated by one of you in a PM). I'm not even interested in this conversation, just exhausted and sick of people who keep saying that their way is the right way, and that stealth is the best thing someone can be.
Frankly, I think a lot of the people here are shaming those of us who aren't, can't, and will never be able to blend in. Please, check yourselves. I'm trying to be as civil as everyone else here, but this whole topic has me more than a bit angry.
I am sorry that you find this thread disturbing and depressing. However, I certainly do not see any "shaming' on the part of those who are 'stealth'. In fact what I see is exactly the opposite wherein those are have in fact achieved some degree of 'stealth', are being told that they should feel guilt or shame for having done whatever it was that they had to do to achieve that level of contentment or comfort. Is that not the ultimate goal, to live in peace in their own skin, and on their own terms? Perhaps it is those who are angered or depressed by the success of others, that "should check their privilege"?
Quote from: Samantha007 on November 19, 2014, 04:47:30 AM
Susan552: No wonder you are being moderated.
hugs,
Samantha
Excuse me? I am getting the snide implication, but just exactly is your point? You don't like my POV, therefore I should be "moderated"?
Okay friends
This has been fun, but not really very much fun
Wouldn't it be nice if people could express their opinions without going at each other?
Topic Locked
Thank you
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