Hi all,
I'm just curious how, as someone with a non-binary gender identity, you define your sexual orientation.
I'm struggling with this now because for basically my entire post-pubescent life I've thought of myself as a lesbian and most of my social circle is made up of cis lesbians and bi women. It's only been over the last year or so - I think once I finally shook off all the shaming vestiges of my conservative Christian upbringing - that I've started unpacking the messy "queer" box. I'm not sure what to call myself now. I know I'm still exclusively attracted to female-spirited people, but I can't be a lesbian if I'm not a woman, right? ???
How have you gone about defining your sexual orientation in relation to your gender identity?
This may help solve the problem. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynephilia
I am pansexual. I enjoy the person, not the gender. Solves the whole "categorizing" thing.
I have always been and probably will always be attracted to men. I was born female but I'm gender fluid so my brain moves around on the gender spectrum. When I am female, I am straight. When I am male, I am gay. Either way, I'm still attracted to men.
I was thinking about this just this morning!!
I identify publicly, politically, etc. as a lesbian and have for almost 40 years. Personally, in my heart, in terms of desire, I often feel more like a gay man. Given my gender identity as non-binary, I'd probably just say that "personally, in my heart," I identify - in terms of sexual orientation - as bisexual. But, since I've been with the same person for almost 20, I do consider myself to be in a lesbian relationship, no matter my personal identity.
Yeah, a bit convoluted but I think that if we're all (cis, trans, questioning...) honest with ourselves, we're probably all bi to some degree! :)
Not sure, LOL. For a long time identified as "bi" but I think that was more because I enjoyed sexual experiences with men and women. But when with a man I always think of myself as a woman and make it clear to the guy that is the case (dressed or not). Pansexual may be the better "label" if one is even needed.
I sort of lucked out in the nb orientation game. I'm bisexual: attracted to people who are the same gender as me, and also those who aren't. No matter where my own gender floats on the spectrum, that still holds true.
If ''gynephile'' isn't up your alley identity-wise, you could always go with the simple, ''I'm attracted to women.'' Not as satisfying as having A Word sometimes, I know, but accurate and communicative.
Ditto!
Quote from: suzifrommd on November 19, 2014, 08:12:58 AM
I am pansexual. I enjoy the person, not the gender. Solves the whole "categorizing" thing.
I just use the word "queer", since sex isn't really my thing and I guess it carries more weight to it than pansexual. Pansexuality is an orientation, but queer is a shared cultural identity, of liking whoever we damn well please!
I don't "do" identities. I "do" whatever works....with whomever is willing and floats my boat :laugh:
Currently that is my own personal hunk/man-toy.
Bi most definitely. Definitely don't set boundaries for myself though. I never know from which direction love may come from and I sure don't want to miss it again.
Quote from: Emerald on November 19, 2014, 07:50:35 AM
This may help solve the problem. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynephilia
Erm, yep, thanks Emerald. :P
I uh, must admit, though, that the most commonly used word in English that ends in "-phile" is not exactly a club I'm eager to join... :-\
Hmmm!
Yes please.
Just only married.
Bi and very vanilla
I'm in love with a (cis) girl. Most of my physical attraction is for other women (both lesbian and bisexual) and I identify as a demigirl, so sometimes I feel like "lesbian" is appropriate for me, and other times, "queer" feels right. I've found myself also attracted to and flirt with non-binary identified people as well. So it's all very fluid. I think orientation is very subjective and what is important is what makes you feel comfortable.
Straight though I feel my sexuality shifting towards bicurious.
Quote from: Marcellow on November 20, 2014, 12:11:37 PM
Straight though I feel my sexuality shifting towards bicurious.
That's cute, may I borrow it? It is both descriptive and accurate. ;D Although I'm a little further down the bisexual road. At some point in my life I've covered the whole LGB spectrum. Perhaps I'm just sexually eager?
Julie
Fluid, I am more interested in harmony with the person than anatomy. I guess some might call it bi but I have a loving partner so no plans in looking for someone else anyway.
I'm a can't-get-no-sex-ual... :-\
Until that changes I'm not even going to bother trying to define my sexuality.
Quote from: Ms Grace on November 21, 2014, 10:11:38 PM
I'm a can't-get-no-sex-ual... :-\
Until that changes I'm not even going to bother trying to define my sexuality.
Hmmm...Sounds like a bad case of Lakanookie. ;)
Quote from: HexenPixi on November 20, 2014, 12:00:06 PM
I'm in love with a (cis) girl. Most of my physical attraction is for other women (both lesbian and bisexual) and I identify as a demigirl, so sometimes I feel like "lesbian" is appropriate for me, and other times, "queer" feels right. I've found myself also attracted to and flirt with non-binary identified people as well. So it's all very fluid. I think orientation is very subjective and what is important is what makes you feel comfortable.
I feel similar, lesbian doesn't always feel like it fits, so queer feels more comfortable.
Just curious. What is a 'demi-girl'? I found this by googling the term"
"A demigirl is someone who only partially (not wholly) identifies as a girl or woman, whatever their assigned gender at birth.[1] They may or may not identify as another gender[2] in addition to feeling partially a girl or woman.
Alternatively, demigirl can be used to describe someone assigned female at birth who feels but the barest association with that identification, though not a significant enough dissociation to create real physical discomfort or dysphoria, or someone assigned male at birth who is trans feminine but not wholly binary-identified, so that they feel more strongly associated with "female" than "male," socially or physically, but not strongly enough to justify an absolute self-identification as "woman".[3]
References
1.↑ http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/55798-definitions-master-list/ AVEN: Definitions Master List
2.↑ http://genderqueeries.tumblr.com/identities Gender Queeries: Some Genderqueer Identities
3.↑ http://genderqueerid.com/gq-terms'
It just sounds to me that not only sexual dimorphism has gone out the window, but now gender has followed suit. Or maybe it is the other way around. ???
On the other hand...again from Google: "Queer is an umbrella term for sexual and gender minorities that are not heterosexual, or gender-binary. Originally meaning strange or peculiar, queer developed a usage as a pejorative term for homosexual in the late 19th century. Beginning in the late 1980s, some political and social LGBT groups began to reappropriate the word to establish community and assert a political identity, with it becoming the preferred term to describe some academic disciplines and gaining use as a descriptor of non-heterosexual identities.[1] Queer may be used by those who reject traditional gender identities as a broader, less conformist, and deliberately ambiguous alternative to LGBT.
No wonder nobody except those on the "inside", actually understand
Actually Susan, I think using the word queer actually simplifies things. Traditional sexual and gender rolls are beginning to dissolve more and more today; among young people, and this is a very good thing when you look and just how restrictive socioity has been in the past...within the queer community, this is just happening faster. So many people don't want to limit themselvs to one sort of person, because they've realized that actually, it IS ok to just do whatever you'd like. So, gender aside, queer is a lot easier to understand than gay or straight. Queer is anyone who doesn't fit into the traditional sexual and gender roles that have been laid out before us...and among my generation, the number of people who identify as such is rapidly growing.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 23, 2014, 01:04:34 PM
Actually Susan, I think using the word queer actually simplifies things. Traditional sexual and gender rolls are beginning to dissolve more and more today; among young people, and this is a very good thing when you look and just how restrictive socioity has been in the past...within the queer community, this is just happening faster. So many people don't want to limit themselvs to one sort of person, because they've realized that actually, it IS ok to just do whatever you'd like. So, gender aside, queer is a lot easier to understand than gay or straight. Queer is anyone who doesn't fit into the traditional sexual and gender roles that have been laid out before us...and among my generation, the number of people who identify as such is rapidly growing.
While I might agree that this
might be happening faster within the queer community, I am far from convinced that this is a good thing. In addition I do not see our Western Society as being overly restrictive, especially when compared to other culture in our world.
Queer as an identity is as much political as it is a way of describing a way of being. It sticks two fingers up cissexist hetronormativity and reclaims a word once used as a slur.
I defined that I am not probably sexually oriented at all. ::)
I am 30 and I have never in real life found another person 'hot'. Used to bother me seriously.But nowadays my own identity became so complicated that sexual orientation doesn't trouble me anymore.
Well, you may not think it's good, but like it or not, this is the future we are headed towards-and personally, It gives me hope for humanity. Few things have caused us as much grief as a species as the constructs surrounding gender.
Quote from: Susan522 on November 22, 2014, 02:34:07 PM
Just curious. What is a 'demi-girl'? I found this by googling the term"
"A demigirl is someone who only partially (not wholly) identifies as a girl or woman, whatever their assigned gender at birth.[1] They may or may not identify as another gender[2] in addition to feeling partially a girl or woman.
Alternatively, demigirl can be used to describe someone assigned female at birth who feels but the barest association with that identification, though not a significant enough dissociation to create real physical discomfort or dysphoria, or someone assigned male at birth who is trans feminine but not wholly binary-identified, so that they feel more strongly associated with "female" than "male," socially or physically, but not strongly enough to justify an absolute self-identification as "woman".[3]
References
1.↑ http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/55798-definitions-master-list/ AVEN: Definitions Master List
2.↑ http://genderqueeries.tumblr.com/identities Gender Queeries: Some Genderqueer Identities
3.↑ http://genderqueerid.com/gq-terms'
It just sounds to me that not only sexual dimorphism has gone out the window, but now gender has followed suit. Or maybe it is the other way around. ???
On the other hand...again from Google: "Queer is an umbrella term for sexual and gender minorities that are not heterosexual, or gender-binary. Originally meaning strange or peculiar, queer developed a usage as a pejorative term for homosexual in the late 19th century. Beginning in the late 1980s, some political and social LGBT groups began to reappropriate the word to establish community and assert a political identity, with it becoming the preferred term to describe some academic disciplines and gaining use as a descriptor of non-heterosexual identities.[1] Queer may be used by those who reject traditional gender identities as a broader, less conformist, and deliberately ambiguous alternative to LGBT.
No wonder nobody except those on the "inside", actually understand
I think the word means different things depending on the person and how they identify. In my case, I identify as a female sometimes and non-binary other times; it fluctuates.
Quote from: HexenPixi on November 24, 2014, 12:52:10 PM
I think the word means different things depending on the person and how they identify. In my case, I identify as a female sometimes and non-binary other times; it fluctuates.
And therein lies the problem. How is one to communicate, carry on a conversation, or even understand one anther, if the meaning of words is variable/changeable/optional and/or "depending". Sure context is one thing as in "running a machine" or "running for exercise". But terms like "demi", (which means partial or incomplete), or "trans", (another antonym which is often misused and consequently misunderstood)....should IMHO have clearly understood and agreed upon means.
Otherwise chaos ensues and peoples get their feeling hurt, and I end up in the penalty box >:(
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 24, 2014, 11:46:29 AM
Well, you may not think it's good, but like it or not, this is the future we are headed towards-and personally, It gives me hope for humanity. Few things have caused us as much grief as a species as the constructs surrounding gender.
I agree and am also frustrated that folk continue to seek a rigid taxonomy that does not shift, adapt and change to reflect common usage. If the terms used have meaning within the context of that conversation this is usually enough. Clarity may be sought if confusion is felt. Nothing more than common courtesy really. I have never really understood a vexatious focus on words and terms rather than on seeking to listen, to observe, to reflect, to understand and to support. But as they say, different strokes for different folk. Motivation is often unclear.
Safe travels
Aisla
Quote from: Susan522 on November 24, 2014, 03:09:53 PM
And therein lies the problem. How is one to communicate, carry on a conversation, or even understand one anther, if the meaning of words is variable/changeable/optional and/or "depending". Sure context is one thing as in "running a machine" or "running for exercise". But terms like "demi", (which means partial or incomplete), or "trans", (another antonym which is often misused and consequently misunderstood)....should IMHO have clearly understood and agreed upon means.
Otherwise chaos ensues and peoples get their feeling hurt, and I end up in the penalty box >:(
I guess I just don't really concern myself with what the "social norms" think of my identity. Of course when I go to the doctor to access medical care, I have to conceal the "fluidity" in my identity because society hasn't grasped that part yet. It's all in the eye of the beholder in the end, and I personally don't really care what people think. I know who I am, no one can change that.
Quote from: HexenPixi on November 25, 2014, 11:28:41 AM
I guess I just don't really concern myself with what the "social norms" think of my identity. Of course when I go to the doctor to access medical care, I have to conceal the "fluidity" in my identity because society hasn't grasped that part yet. It's all in the eye of the beholder in the end, and I personally don't really care what people think. I know who I am, no one can change that.
In the end having understood and accepted yourself I think that the only imperative is to authentically express yourself. It really is about your narrative and your life. If folk were less concerned with what others think they would be more likely to identify and to realise opportunities to access all qualities, attributes and nuance whether they appear to be pink or blue, M or F. Very few folk consider themselves 100 per cent masculine or feminine and I am beginning to suspect that a significant group have some degree of gender fluidity. It is then up to the individual as to just how much they choose to share or to express in their interactions with others.
Safe travels
Aisla
I get so very confused in these threads :P I am a woman who has no intention of throwing away what she learned and experienced in a previous life. I am attracted to people men and women cis and trans who are whole, loving, and generous of spirit.
My doctor, my shrink, some of my friends look at me askance at times and I flow through pronouns like a stream through the forest. Ripples and rapids are to be expected. The language is imprecise, but then so am I.
What is more important and more interesting to me is that I live and love authentically and honestly. Gender and Sexual identification is bimodal, and I seem to roll up and down between the humps. That is both okay and as it should be.
Peace,
Julie
Quote from: JulieBlair on November 25, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
I get so very confused in these threads :P I am a woman who has no intention of throwing away what she learned and experienced in a previous life. I am attracted to people men and women cis and trans who are whole, loving, and generous of spirit.
My doctor, my shrink, some of my friends look at me askance at times and I flow through pronouns like a stream through the forest. Ripples and rapids are to be expected. The language is imprecise, but then so am I.
What is more important and more interesting to me is that I live and love authentically and honestly. Gender and Sexual identification is bimodal, and I seem to roll up and down between the humps. That is both okay and as it should be.
Peace,
Julie
Beautifully said! :)
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 19, 2014, 08:26:33 PM
I just use the word "queer", since sex isn't really my thing and I guess it carries more weight to it than pansexual. Pansexuality is an orientation, but queer is a shared cultural identity, of liking whoever we damn well please!
Quite a nuanced way of describing things. I like it.
Hetero, why I lived as a monk for the majority of my life, I couldn't express myself. However, and here's where it gets weird, my wife of 12 years is hum....a cross dresser, or let's say male who presents as female, and so well that even in the hospital in icu, the staff and doctors referred to her as "she". Confused? Lol. I've always been the man in the relationship. Even in bed. Wink
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Let me follow that up by saying I grew up with glam rock, and I'm still living in the 70s, I guess, so I really dig this new freedom, and I really appreciate how far society has come.
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Quote from: arimoose on November 25, 2014, 04:47:26 PM
Hetero, why I lived as a monk for the majority of my life, I couldn't express myself. However, and here's where it gets weird, my wife of 12 years is hum....a cross dresser, or let's say male who presents as female, and so well that even in the hospital in icu, the staff and doctors referred to her as "she". Confused? Lol. I've always been the man in the relationship. Even in bed. Wink
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Excellent. Fluidity is a very good thing. Apparent role reversal is often liberating and empowering to both parties.
When I'm male I'm heterosexual and when I'm female I'm lesbian though I sometimes feel a strong sexual attraction to other non cis individuals. I guess I'm bi curious.
Unlimited.
I'm not even sure anymore... I don't really like sex. I see it as a functional reproduction ploy, with dire consequences such as babies and STD's. Orgasm = Nature's incentive in cheating animals to reproduce. Or is that too cynical? So... I think I can label myself as Asexual, but that sounds too rebellious and political... I dunno. Nonsexual? I don't belong on this planet.
Quote from: Susan522 on November 24, 2014, 03:09:53 PM
And therein lies the problem. How is one to communicate, carry on a conversation, or even understand one anther, if the meaning of words is variable/changeable/optional and/or "depending". Sure context is one thing as in "running a machine" or "running for exercise". But terms like "demi", (which means partial or incomplete), or "trans", (another antonym which is often misused and consequently misunderstood)....should IMHO have clearly understood and agreed upon means.
Otherwise chaos ensues and peoples get their feeling hurt, and I end up in the penalty box >:(
And who gets to define them? You act like language is a fixed and immutable thing, when really it isn't. insisting that people use definitions usually defined by straight, white, cis male academics is an act of violence and oppression in itself.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 26, 2014, 10:08:54 AM
And who gets to define them? You act like language is a fixed and immutable thing, when really it isn't. insisting that people use definitions usually defined by straight, white, cis male academics is an act of violence and oppression in itself.
Nonsense! Community is an act of consensus. Government is an act of consensus. Likewise the definition of terms/terminology/
language is an act of consensus. Allowing for a "fluidity" of language, where definitions are "whatever" anybody says they are, depending on how they feel today or how much pot they smoked today, is a recipe for chaos and/or anarchy, which is what we are witnessing in Ferguson, MO., and other large cities where self serving activists are exploiting the death of a young man for their own selfish needs or "progressive' agenda.
I object. I will continue to speak out against the tyranny of the mob for as long as I am able. Sorry about the de-rail, but I simply will not buy into the plethora of anarchistic BS that seems to have invaded the so called "trans* movement".
Responding to Susan, but think this is a useful thought to put out there...
You may be bothered by that termonology, but frankly I don't think you should be. The term identity bothers me too, but since all of this is fluid, I am in a way understanding of why the word is used. Some of what we expierence (i.e dysphoria) is whooly a matter of biology, but other things-the pronouns we use, the clothes we choose to wear are personal choices, albiet ones that are in no way independent of the other factors at play. So I take it as is...
Your understanding is entirely wrong! There are many of us who experience substantial physical dysphoria, and a few (such as myself) even identify as transexual; it simply means that I am not comfortable with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles. Others can choose to do this and it's fine, but I just don't feel right with it myself. I am both sensitive and assertive. I like pants and dresses...I am a woman, but I'm not comfortable with all of the labels, expectations and presumptions that come along with the word "woman".
You're of course right that this is a need, but the social piece is a major one as well. I think that the social cost of being openly trans is a huge piece of this for me. Of course I also need to change my body-but that's only part of the issue. Surgery is important to me, but so is a sense of belonging. Perhaps even more so.
Now, the practicals are even now a bit much for me. And while it's fine for some people to give up their entire lives and just make that money, I am not happy to do this. There are other things that matter to me, and my education is, right now, even more important to fixing my body. One impedes my ability to live, but the other gives me a reason to go on. I'm hoping to get it eventually...but I'm not like you in that my transition is just a part of who I am and what I need to be happy.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on November 26, 2014, 06:21:59 PM
Responding to Susan, but think this is a useful thought to put out there...
You may be bothered by that termonology, but frankly I don't think you should be. The term identity bothers me too, but since all of this is fluid, I am in a way understanding of why the word is used. Some of what we expierence (i.e dysphoria) is whooly a matter of biology, but other things-the pronouns we use, the clothes we choose to wear are personal choices, albiet ones that are in no way independent of the other factors at play. So I take it as is...
Your understanding is entirely wrong! There are many of us who experience substantial physical dysphoria, and a few (such as myself) even identify as transexual; it simply means that I am not comfortable with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles. Others can choose to do this and it's fine, but I just don't feel right with it myself. I am both sensitive and assertive. I like pants and dresses...I am a woman, but I'm not comfortable with all of the labels, expectations and presumptions that come along with the word "woman".
You're of course right that this is a need, but the social piece is a major one as well. I think that the social cost of being openly trans is a huge piece of this for me. Of course I also need to change my body-but that's only part of the issue. Surgery is important to me, but so is a sense of belonging. Perhaps even more so.
Now, the practicals are even now a bit much for me. And while it's fine for some people to give up their entire lives and just make that money, I am not happy to do this. There are other things that matter to me, and my education is, right now, even more important to fixing my body. One impedes my ability to live, but the other gives me a reason to go on. I'm hoping to get it eventually...but I'm not like you in that my transition is just a part of who I am and what I need to be happy.
I really like this response in that there is a lot of thoughtfulness as opposed to the usual regurgitation of "anti-establishment" rhetoric. Firstly there is an acknowledgment of our differences in personal perceptions. What this does it allows for a deeper inquiry into the thinking behind this: "
There are many of us who experience substantial physical dysphoria, and a few (such as myself) even identify as transexual; it simply means that I am not comfortable with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles"
The questions I have include, but are not limited to, the following: The 'physical dysphoria' that you refer to above...Is this a fundamental unhappiness with your sexual morphology? If it is, then I clearly understand and sympathize. However, my confusion comes from this 'seemingly' related statement that, "it simply means that I am not comfortable with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles."
This is not how I understand the symptomology of Transsexualism. Simply put, I see Transsexualism as a serious and acute discomfort with one's sexual morphology...not as a discomfort "with traditional roles and notions wrt gender, or rather, I do not feel like I fit within those roles". Personally, I am all over the place with my "presentation".
I just don't see presentation as the issue. From my POV,
this is the issue: "I think that the social cost of being openly trans is a huge piece of this for me. "
If the cost of being 'openly trans*' is a major/"huge" piece of this for you, and it is getting between you and your goals an your happiness, then why not prioritize those things which might improve your current state of existence? It just seems that maintaining this queer identity is getting in your way.
As for me I'm all girl/woman, a bit of a girly girl lesbian who prefers other girly girl lesbians like myself. However I respect every ones preference in their individuality and sexual preferences. But in answer to the question, for me sexually I'm attracted to and prefer girls.
Peace everyone. :)
Ally ;)
Quote from: suzifrommd on November 19, 2014, 08:12:58 AM
I am pansexual. I enjoy the person, not the gender. Solves the whole "categorizing" thing.
This is probably the best way I can describe my orientation. I was strictly hetero for some time but my desires changed earlier this year. It's not unusual for that to happen to people.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 26, 2014, 10:08:54 AM
And who gets to define them? You act like language is a fixed and immutable thing, when really it isn't.
Also, I agree with this alongside turning "queer" into a more positive term.
I'm asexual, so that about solves it for me. Haha
Gave it some more thought, and I actually feel like when I was pre-puberty, as a child.
Not interested, not feeling anything related to sex. Sex never crosses my mind anymore. It is so much more orderly and peaceful, not being driven by hormones and urges. Maybe I have desexed myself. I am not sure, but ever since on HRT I had no libido, and after surgery I was completely void of any sexual desire. And I kinda like it that way. And what is sex anyway... just a couple of minutes of exchanging bodily fluids. No wonder it grosses me out. What's the big deal anyway, when you think it through.
I love bumper stickers and one of my favs is "We're Here We're Queer Get Used To It" and that one is over a decade old. Face it folks, the only real constant is change;-)
Queer is a statement in my case that is political and inclusive of gender and orientation. I also identify as Bi or Pan and rather like Jill's "unlimited" identity. What great fluid fun!
I am queer and like our lovely Julie i have been in what others would call straight, gay, bi and lesbian relationships. Just labels when it is the love we share with people that counts. I am also now a wife to my wife and we are amused to find that people who witness our public displays of affection, like a kiss, to raise eyebrows. Same two sets of lips as years before but now it's shocking? Go figure what really matters to some?
Quote from: Vestyn on November 20, 2014, 09:42:03 AM
Erm, yep, thanks Emerald. :P
I uh, must admit, though, that the most commonly used word in English that ends in "-phile" is not exactly a club I'm eager to join... :-\
I agree.
As for my orientation it's just dick (man or transF) lol that makes it so much easier, without the "phile"..
Or maybe I'm a non-vaginal liking bisexual lol, I really don't feel like I fit into any orientation category.
Right now I am boycotting my sexual orientation. I've got my picket signs.
The word i use is queer. Queer 4 queer!
I'm very fluid, although when i swing feminine i tend to be "more" femme, & my masculinity is quite glam & dapper. ("Demigirl" is a great word, i think i'll tryit on today and see if it fits.) As my gender shifts my sexuality shifts, & vice versa. I'm a switch with a good attitude and effortlessly adjust my energy to compliment my partners.
Because my attractions (and "identity" - whatever that means hahaha) are always changing, i reaally love the word queer. I also resonate with the community, challenging the gender binary & the societal compulsion to fix an"identity" as one or another (male or female, gay or straight). Queer is community, acceptance, anti-oppression.
As for my specific attractions, specifically i like genderqueer folk, gender non-conformists, gender benders, gender enders, tricksters, and illusionists. But simply saying "queer" is enough for solidarity purposes. It's great shorthand. It could mean anything, yet paradoxically, it always helps me find my tribe.
When I first came out to myself it felt weird to think of myself as gay because I'm a girl that likes girls. To me gay means guys liking guys. Calling myself a lesbian felt strange as well. It was easier to just say I like girls. Now calling myself a lesbian doesn't seem so strange. Gay still seams a little strange, but not as bad.
Quote from: Susan522 on November 26, 2014, 05:44:14 PM
Nonsense! Community is an act of consensus. Government is an act of consensus. Likewise the definition of terms/terminology/language is an act of consensus. Allowing for a "fluidity" of language, where definitions are "whatever" anybody says they are, depending on how they feel today or how much pot they smoked today, is a recipe for chaos and/or anarchy, which is what we are witnessing in Ferguson, MO., and other large cities where self serving activists are exploiting the death of a young man for their own selfish needs or "progressive' agenda.
Ummm... ok. I'm gonna say it.
NOT COOL!
Opposing systemic racism and inequality is not a "selfish need."
QuoteI object. I will continue to speak out against the tyranny of the mob for as long as I am able. Sorry about the de-rail, but I simply will not buy into the plethora of anarchistic BS that seems to have invaded the so called "trans* movement".
This is the non-binary subforum, correct?
I come here to feel safe.
You seem to be calling a certain subset of nonbinary queers, our words, our thoughts and struggles, "BS." I hope i misunderstand you, but i'm having trouble reading your posts as anything but hostile. Please say it ain't so.
Hello,
Susan can be a little dramatic no? Lol, yes this is the non-binary area but people do not and ought not check their beliefs and/or opinions at the door when they arrive. Conflict is a part of conversation, and the conversation here can be dynamic and even sometimes abrasive depending on the author. Here is the thing. We absolutely must allow people to have their say without censorship. Your points are well taken, and I agree. It was also derailing the conversation into politics and political philosophy. Things get derailed here all the time.
Last month there was a dust up on this. One person in particular refused to allow others to express themselves without fear and without judgement. I believe that there was no evil intent, but it blew the forum apart. Fifty people left because they did not feel free to cry, suffer anguish, struggle, and ultimately triumph. We lost some of the best and the brightest. I stick around because I think this place and the people who come seeking authentic lives here are too important, and because I have enough hubris to think that I might be useful.
When there is hostility, by all means call it out, but anarchy and freedom of expression is the alpha and omega of this forum. I have learned more from the participants here than in any other venue I have ever discovered. I am glad that you are mining the history here. Pay attention to Taka, Satinjoy, Ativan, Aisla, Shan and others to numerous to mention. There is insight here that extends back in time spanning years. It is up to us to carry the wisdom forward with consideration and selflessness. Thank you for doing so here.
Peace,
Julie
Quote from: awilliams1701 on December 30, 2014, 12:55:09 PM
When I first came out to myself it felt weird to think of myself as gay because I'm a girl that likes girls. To me gay means guys liking guys. Calling myself a lesbian felt strange as well. It was easier to just say I like girls. Now calling myself a lesbian doesn't seem so strange. Gay still seams a little strange, but not as bad.
How about human? Gay and Lesbian are artifice. I am a woman who loves people. What that makes me is spontaneous and generous of spirit. Why would I refuse to learn and be intimate with a man, just because he identifies as male and loves men? Why would I not embrace a woman who finds delight in feminine intimacy? I spent most of sixty years trying to be a straight dude. It wasn't me and it sucked. I intend to spend the remainder of my life as a woman who embraces diversity in all of its color, and all of its confusing charm.
Fair winds on this sunny day in Seattle,
Julie
I was just trying to say that in my case I dealt with the orientation issue by avoiding the common labels and just saying that I like girls.
As for people in general, sorry but I can't do men. I'm completely revolted by the male form including what little masculinity I have left. My disphoria would always hit me when that area got excited. Now that it doesn't I find that the disphoria is a lot more mild. But I can't wait to get rid of it with SRS and then I hope I never see one again.
Quote from: JulieBlair on December 30, 2014, 01:34:13 PM
How about human? Gay and Lesbian are artifice. I am a woman who loves people. What that makes me is spontaneous and generous of spirit. Why would I refuse to learn and be intimate with a man, just because he identifies as male and loves men? Why would I not embrace a woman who finds delight in feminine intimacy? I spent most of sixty years trying to be a straight dude. It wasn't me and it sucked. I intend to spend the remainder of my life as a woman who embraces diversity in all of its color, and all of its confusing charm.
Fair winds on this sunny day in Seattle,
Julie
Quote from: awilliams1701 on December 30, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
I was just trying to say that in my case I dealt with the orientation issue by avoiding the common labels and just saying that I like girls.
As for people in general, sorry but I can't do men. I'm completely revolted by the male form including what little masculinity I have left. My disphoria would always hit me when that area got excited. Now that it doesn't I find that the disphoria is a lot more mild. But I can't wait to get rid of it with SRS and then I hope I never see one again.
Fair enough :) do you have the surgery scheduled? I have some other medical issues that will keep me deformed for another year. (And I was so excited when I got my year of RLE and now I have to wait some more. :( )
I'm glad to see you reply, Julie. I like seeing you around here.
From my own experience in "identity," i've been on the receiving end of a lot of cruel words & judgements from people who've said i'm not ___ enough. Ive been slammed back into the gender/sexuality closet on a couple occasions which are quite painful in my memory.
Years of feeling not quite right, and anxiety around trans, gay/bi, poly, kinky, social justice activists, etc resulted.
Comfortable as a "trans ally," i was afraid to come out as genderfluid (gendersomething, gendermushy?) for fear of being scolded, or far far worse, accused of harming the cause.
I've worked on accepting myself, and on defending nonbinary people while still striving to honor and center transsexual people in wider discussions of gender rights. But here in the nonbinary subforum, i'd hate to imagine another nonbinary newbie wandering into a thread about sexual orientation and feeling invalidated, even if unintentionally.
I'd not want to censor anyone. But i would want to remind. I daresay that everyone here has probably been on the receiving end of "what you are isn't real" or "you're just making up words" at one point or another. And we never know when even someone who seems very strong might be having a vulnerable day.
On that note, to Susan522, if you read this, i want to thank you for bringing up valid points about meaning within communication. You've inspired some quality journalling. I wouldn't delve as deep without the hard questions. Thank you.
Aaand... done with my/our derail? I hope?
No. Even if my insurance covers it, I'll still need to pay close to $6000 just in the medical side alone. It cost a lot to come out so while I could afford that, its not ideal at this time. Plus I know most require a year of full time. I've only been out to myself for about 6 months and on hormones for 1 month. I suspect the earliest this will happen is 2016.
My insurance is a lot worse than it used to be. I used to have co-pays on everything so as someone who didn't get sick often it was cheap to both have and use. Now I'm required to pay 100% of my medical costs up to $2000. After that the co-pays kick in to a percentage (35% maybe), however once I reach $6000 out of pocket medical costs, then its supposed to cover everything. I'm not sure what SRS costs, but I suspect its more than $6000, so hitting my cap seems likely.
Terms, orientations, and identity shifts...
I have a kissing-friend who calls themself a "no-bro-sexual." To them, men and masculinity are fine - but not sexist, posturing frat boy types.
Now that i'm more openly expressing my masculinity, i find that (surprise!) i have a little bit of that frat-boy energy as a part of me! So i flirt with my friend sometimes and they say *maybe some* dudebros aren't so bad... so long as they're queer.
Quote from: DoYouRealize on December 30, 2014, 02:26:51 PM
Terms, orientations, and identity shifts...
I have a kissing-friend who calls themself a "no-bro-sexual." To them, men and masculinity are fine - but not sexist, posturing frat boy types.
Now that i'm more openly expressing my masculinity, i find that (surprise!) i have a little bit of that frat-boy energy as a part of me! So i flirt with my friend sometimes and they say *maybe some* dudebros aren't so bad... so long as they're queer.
Lol, I think it sounds like a fun party. :)
I'm asexual but would be romantically attracted to males if I wasn't aromantic which maybe partly explains why I didn't really put a non-binary or trans* label on myself for the first few decades. In some vague way I sort of fit the hetero-normative model except I didn't participate in it and wished for an androgynous body. It's really only a few months ago that I discovered there is life outside the binary so I just couldn't conceive of who or what I was.
I don't have a sexuality but I like the male body visually.
transient. love feeling as a woman with a man
Most of my Life, I had trouble with my sexuality and gender ID and I did not know why, when in High school, I would see a cute Gal and say, wow she is cute, then a Cute guy would walk by and I would say to myself, Wow he is cute, Wait a Minute, where did that come from, looking into my Pants and seeing male genitals, Hmmmmm whats going on here, anyway, I did my best to be a hetro male, Married, had 3 boys and then at age 45, I went through Menopause X 10, I could no longer function as a male, or function at all, I had to go on female hormones and testosterone blockers, that helped, but then 5 years later, my boobs grew out, my face became more fem and my demenor was totally fem and now i was attracted to Guys, I am a M2F ts, I now live full time female, had a Court Ordered gender and name change, after 10 years living full time female, I thought I was a hetro female, as I am Attracted to Guys Now, then a few Months ago, I was at a local night club, its a gay and straight Friendly Club, and I was attracted to a Gal there, Hmmmmm that got me thinking again about my Sexuality, I think I was attracted to Her Male Gender side,
That confused the heck out of me, then it happened again, whats going on here, So Now, I just say I am Pan gendered and Leave it at that, I am Not going to Worry about it any More :) Take care, Chellie
I'm just queer :D. I'm a tad demi/asexual as I don't see someone and want to have sex with them, but can appreciate that they are attractive. I also find women more sexually and physically attractive than men, but would consider going out with a pre op trans guy. Not sure how I'd feel if he then had bottom surgery. Any other queer people on this forum?
Quote from: Elis on February 20, 2015, 06:15:01 AM
I'm just queer :D. Any other queer people on this forum?
Oh heck yes, loads of us queer people here. I really like that TG/TS people cover the spectrum of orientation.
This is such a great topic, haha. I love reading all the answers so far.
When I answer people irl who ask this question, I usually say "pizzasexual" and go on about toppings (interesting reactions are guaranteed). But when I'm not being silly, I just say I'm queer. Queer is more of a social identity for me rather than an orientation, though...I typically feel more closely asexual than anything else, but I find femmeness more sexually attractive (in the rare occasion that I can find people sexually attractive rather than situations) and masculinity more romantically attractive (most of my partners including my current partner have been male-identified). Overall, just really queer.
Been struggling with this lately.. I'm technically pansexual and poly but I actually kinda resent it more now. I wish I could pick one side or the other, because in this society it's just difficult going from one gender to another and back, or even harder having more than one at a time. I have a boyfriend at the moment and I keep checking out women, longing to be with them again. So, lately I've been leaning more towards being a lesbian. Just thinking about sticking with that label makes me feel oddly warm and fuzzy inside... but then, aside from my boyfriend, I also find myself attracted to the occasional guy here and there. Not just 'oh, he's pretty attractive' but rather I get tingly all over and turned on. It's frustrating for sure. :/ But honestly, I think I could give up men, but can't say the same for women. So I guess that's something.
Quote from: Ashey on February 22, 2015, 05:24:17 AM
Been struggling with this lately.. I'm technically pansexual and poly but I actually kinda resent it more now. I wish I could pick one side or the other, because in this society it's just difficult going from one gender to another and back, or even harder having more than one at a time. I have a boyfriend at the moment and I keep checking out women, longing to be with them again. So, lately I've been leaning more towards being a lesbian. Just thinking about sticking with that label makes me feel oddly warm and fuzzy inside... but then, aside from my boyfriend, I also find myself attracted to the occasional guy here and there. Not just 'oh, he's pretty attractive' but rather I get tingly all over and turned on. It's frustrating for sure. :/ But honestly, I think I could give up men, but can't say the same for women. So I guess that's something.
In the past I have felt like it would simply be easier to be in one camp or the other more definitely. Isn't it possible that some people assume that social identity to end speculation or for the group solidarity and identification with a clear label? How many people do we know that have been married and intimate with a heterosexual partner for years, created a family and then come out "lesbian or gay"? Being Bi is sadly like being transgender for some and too often considered part of a lower social stature. Yes, as ML says I am really Queer too.
Quote from: Tessa James on February 22, 2015, 12:48:33 PM
Isn't it possible that some people assume that social identity to end speculation or for the group solidarity and identification with a clear label?
That's why I would choose to label myself a lesbian. Technically, I'll always be pansexual but I'd rather pick a side and try to stick to it. And I suppose there would be more support being a part of the lesbian community and more understanding from everyone else. I honestly don't know if that would make things any easier, but I'll probably try anyway. It's just so difficult right now having a boyfriend but still longing for a girlfriend, and also having little to no support or understanding from people. It'd be one thing if my boyfriend were poly too, but he isn't and I feel like for my own sanity I should choose to have a boyfriend or a girlfriend and stick to that. Of course, I'd probably get a girlfriend and end up missing guys.. ::) But there's just so much stigma attached to polyamory and no understanding about pansexuality, it's very frustrating and makes me feel like a freak really..
A lesbian is someone (exclusive of cis males) that is strictly attracted to women,
So unless you're a cis guy you definitely can identify as a lesbian.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Ashey on February 22, 2015, 01:26:49 PM
That's why I would choose to label myself a lesbian. Technically, I'll always be pansexual but I'd rather pick a side and try to stick to it. And I suppose there would be more support being a part of the lesbian community and more understanding from everyone else. I honestly don't know if that would make things any easier, but I'll probably try anyway. It's just so difficult right now having a boyfriend but still longing for a girlfriend, and also having little to no support or understanding from people. It'd be one thing if my boyfriend were poly too, but he isn't and I feel like for my own sanity I should choose to have a boyfriend or a girlfriend and stick to that. Of course, I'd probably get a girlfriend and end up missing guys.. ::) But there's just so much stigma attached to polyamory and no understanding about pansexuality, it's very frustrating and makes me feel like a freak really..
Sorry about that freak feeling but it are seems to come with the territory. We just got a new governor in Oregon, Kate Brown, and one of her claims to fame is that she is the first "openly self identified as bisexual" governor in the US. She remains married to her male appearing partner so her identity could have remained in the closet. I now have one more reason to be a proud Oregonian and see the stigma of Bisexual/poly fading into the sunset. And then I do fly a freak flag whenever it suits me;-) :D
So many fun phrases - gendermushy might be my favorite. :)
When watching romantic scenes in movies, I fail to empathize with straight couples and was confused for a long time as to why people liked it so much (Oh great, another kissing scene. Grossssss.) Then I saw a lesbian couple kiss on tv and the icky feeling was gone. Hm. [suspicious]
I prefer "queer" for the same reasons others have mentioned. I objectively identify femininity as more attractive than the male physique, and I'm more comfortable thinking about feminine spectrum intimacy, but I have no desire to act on those impulses. But I'm also in a relationship with a cis-male which is more about loving the individual than the orientation. I'm probably asexual or demisexual as far as drive goes, so pan or bi might not be quite as truthful... Queer is the closest I can get to the truth in one word. I value its ambiguity, instant identification as non-traditional, and almost tip-of-the-iceberg-tease effect it can have:
"Why, yes, yes, I am queer, and no, I may or may not want to go into detail for you if you're a creeper queery-phobe."
(Is what I'd like to say... I get embarrassed talking about love in public.) :icon_redface:
I am bi but because of my nonbinary gender, I often feel like I'm gay no matter who I'm with. So I go back and forth. If someone asks me directly what my orientation is, I will tell them that I'm bi, but I refer to myself as gay a lot. I'm kind of iffy about the word "queer" being applied to me because of personal reasons, but I am okay with it if I'm around close friends who I feel like understand me. Sometimes I get kind of self-conscious about my labels seeming like they don't "make sense," but they make sense to me and I appreciate it when the people around me are understanding about it.
As a transwoman Im into males. If I had a choice, bisexual and 6'2+ men.
Bisexual men are best in my opinion.
Quote from: ERROR: gender undefined; on February 23, 2015, 02:13:31 AM
So many fun phrases - gendermushy might be my favorite. :)
When watching romantic scenes in movies, I fail to empathize with straight couples and was confused for a long time as to why people liked it so much (Oh great, another kissing scene. Grossssss.) Then I saw a lesbian couple kiss on tv and the icky feeling was gone. Hm. [suspicious]
I prefer "queer" for the same reasons others have mentioned. I objectively identify femininity as more attractive than the male physique, and I'm more comfortable thinking about feminine spectrum intimacy, but I have no desire to act on those impulses. But I'm also in a relationship with a cis-male which is more about loving the individual than the orientation. I'm probably asexual or demisexual as far as drive goes, so pan or bi might not be quite as truthful... Queer is the closest I can get to the truth in one word. I value its ambiguity, instant identification as non-traditional, and almost tip-of-the-iceberg-tease effect it can have:
"Why, yes, yes, I am queer, and no, I may or may not want to go into detail for you if you're a creeper queery-phobe."
(Is what I'd like to say... I get embarrassed talking about love in public.) :icon_redface:
Wow. That explains why I get mushy for straight kissing versus gay guys... gay guys romance is less amazing to me.
Quote from: ERROR: gender undefined; on February 23, 2015, 02:13:31 AM
So many fun phrases - gendermushy might be my favorite. :)
I prefer "queer" for the same reasons others have mentioned. I objectively identify femininity as more attractive than the male physique, and I'm more comfortable thinking about feminine spectrum intimacy, but I have no desire to act on those impulses. But I'm also in a relationship with a cis-male which is more about loving the individual than the orientation. I'm probably asexual or demisexual as far as drive goes, so pan or bi might not be quite as truthful... Queer is the closest I can get to the truth in one word. I value its ambiguity, instant identification as non-traditional, and almost tip-of-the-iceberg-tease effect it can have:
"Why, yes, yes, I am queer, and no, I may or may not want to go into detail for you if you're a creeper queery-phobe."
Love your explanation of Queer. ;D I was recently at a national college diversity conference and repeatedly referred to myself as transgender and queer. The squirming and discomfort at hearing those words was palpable with some people crossing their legs, arms and turning away. Finally one guy said "well i thought that was an offensive term and i'm glad it is ok to use now." i responded that is somewhat like using the N word for people of color. We may describe ourself and sometimes each other that way but the truth is that not every one is Ok hearing that from someone else outside of the group. Language is important and reclaiming once offensive terms like queer and gay is part of integrating ourselves in the larger community and accepting ourselves IMO.
Quote from: suzifrommd on November 19, 2014, 08:12:58 AM
I am pansexual. I enjoy the person, not the gender. Solves the whole "categorizing" thing.
^This. I may prefer the female body for sexual activity, but it's really about who someone is, not what.
seems like we're as colorful with orientation as gender expression...
I tend to get more excited by a Rambler essay, an orangey sunset or a meal with friends then I ever have from sexual thoughts. I suppose that puts me somewhere on assexual realm of things. This is a pity, I like the idea of being a roister-doistering, rogering old reprobate.
Quote from: Pica Pica on March 16, 2015, 03:54:30 PM
I tend to get more excited by a Rambler essay, an orangey sunset or a meal with friends then I ever have from sexual thoughts. I suppose that puts me somewhere on assexual realm of things. This is a pity, I like the idea of being a roister-doistering, rogering old reprobate.
Totally off the topic, it's really good to see you posting again. It's been a while hasn't it?