How do you know you are LEGALLY a woman? In other words, how do you know if your true gender is recognized by law?
Are you legally a woman when you change your name? or do you become legally a woman when you change your gender marker on your drivers license?
Many states in the US (i.,e California) will let you change your name and gender marker on your drivers license even before you have SRS. The process is very simple; all you need as a therapist's letter and a filled out DMV form stating that you are transsexual, and voila your new drivers license/ID card arrives in two to four weeks with the new gender marker. Pretty awesome, huh?
Well, but what does this new driver license entitle to? Does it mean that if you are arrested, you will be taken to a women's jail? What about if you have children and divorce your spouse? will they give you custody or at least visitation rights? what about alimony for the children?
This is strange but it would seem that the laws only consider you "legally" a woman or a man after genital reconstruction surgery (i.e, SRS, GRS), which to me, is absurd, given the fact that you already have some form of documentation under your preferred gender.
Based on California laws this is what you need to change
your name.
QuoteWhat makes your name "legal"?
Your legal name is the identity by which you are officially known. Your birth name is a legal name because it is on your birth certificate and is used on all of your legal documents. If you want to change that name, you have two options, a "common law" name change and a "court ordered" name change.
Common Law Name Change Some people who change their name never get formal recognition of the change. They simply adopt a new name and use it over time.
If this name is used consistently for business and personal affairs, it can become your legal name through what is called a "common law" name change. This is a free method of changing your name. However, it does not create the kind of solid paper trail that a court ordered name change will.
Court Ordered Name Change A court ordered name change is one where a judge approves your request to change your name. You begin the process by picking up the proper forms, filling them out, and submitting them at the county court house. Once you pay a fee (or submit a fee waiver) you will be given a court date within six weeks.
During those six weeks, you are required to take out a small ad in the classified section of a local paper stating that you will be changing your name. Most everyone who changes their name, regardless of their reason for doing so, has to do this. In a few limited cases, a judge can waive this requirement. Judges will sometimes do this for people who need to protect their identity (often true of survivors of domestic violence) or who are unable to pay for the classified ad (can range from $50 to $120 in SF).
On your court date, you will appear before a judge with proof that you have taken out the ad. The judge may ask you a question or two about the name change. If all of your paperwork is in order and no one objects to your name change request, the judge will approve your request to change your name. This name is now your legal name.
And to make your gender legal in California?QuoteWhat makes your gender legal?
No one knows for sure. California allows you to change the gender on your California birth certificate. Legal experts believe that this change will legally change your gender. However, as far as we know, this theory has not been tested in court.
The reason you might want to try to "legalize" your gender is that some laws (marriage and child custody, mostly) might require you to be a certain gender in order to utilize them. And while changing the gender on your California birth certificate will not guarantee that this gender is "legal," it is the best available method of getting recognition of your gender change.
The process for getting your California birth certificate changed is similar to the one used to get a name change. The primary difference is that you'll need a letter from your health care provider declaring that you have undergone "surgical treatment for the purpose of altering [your] sexual characteristics to those of the opposite sex." [California Health and Safety Code 103425.]
What "surgical treatment" means is unclear. In most cases, a letter from your physician or surgeon documenting that you have undergone the "recommended treatment" for altering your anatomy and appearance is sufficient. This is true regardless of what kind of surgery you have had. However, a judge is allowed to ask you specific questions about your treatment and can deny your request if your treatment does not include genital surgery. From our experience, however, denial on this ground is rare. It is more probable that the judge will grant your request and ask the state to issue you a new birth certificate.
Quotes extracted from this link. (http://www.nclrights.org/publications/pubs/legalizinggender.pdf)
So this is what is going on in sunny California right now, not so good IMO considering the upcoming Real ID Act. What about in your state or country? do you know if you are LEGALLY a woman?
tink :icon_chick:
The law in the UK (and indeed most parts of Europe) has been clarified in recent years. Previously in the UK your legal Gender was given by that recorded on your Birth Certificate.
Most law develops from "Case Law" which is set by legal presidence and in the UK in the 1960's the April Ashley case (in which a TS woman married a rich aristocrat) was used to define Transsexuals legal status.
In the above case the aristocrat decided to divorce April Ashley when he found out she was a transsexual. The case went to the Crown Court and the judge ruled that April was "Legally" a Man, as this was the "Sex" recorded on her Birth Certificate. The ruling given in the 1960's fixed the legal status of transsexuals as there was NO mechanism for changing your Birth Certificate.
Forward to 1990's Christine Goodwin a TS woman, was refused the right to marry her partner, because she was "legally" Male according to her birth certificate. Following lengthy appeals in the UK (which all failed), Christine took the UK Government European Court of Human Rights in Strassbourg, claiming she was a woman (physically and mentally), had had SRS and the UK Government was stopping her from being able to marry her long term partner.
The UCHR upheld her complaint and decreed that the UK Government should change (in Law) the ruling regarding the status of transsexuals and allow them to change their Birth Certificates.
The European Legal system is hierachical based with the UCHR being one of the highset Courts in this system. The ruling is binding on all countries within the European Union and the mechanism is that any ruling by the UCHR has to have a response from the Countries concerned and the ruling has to be implemented within a 3 year time period.
The UK Government introduced a legal process to allow Transsexuals to change their birth certificates as a proposal that went by the title of Gender Recognition Bill. The Bill went through various stages of consultation, drafting and discussion before becoming Law in the Uk in early 2004 as the Gender Recognition Act (2004).
From this date, any TS who meets the requirements of the application process and conditions (2 years in role, Name change, formal diagnosis of GID / Transsexualism, medical reports, signed legal declaration to live in role rest of natural life) is issued a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), which allows all documents to be legally changed and the birth certificate to be changed.
The act is not flawless and requires couples (husband and wife) to divorce (because same sex marriages are not legal) before a GRC is issued, this obviously effects a number of people.
Other European Countries (most recently Spain) have announced similar Gender Recognition legislation and hopefully harmonisation across Europe will take place.
In December 2005, I received my GRC and my new Birth Certificate from the Register of Births and Deaths in the UK. My Sex is listed as Female and in the eyes of the European Union, I am legally Female.
It took nearly 50 years to clarify the legal status of transsexuals in Europe and one determined lady to effect that change.
Buffy
I fear what is going to happen once the Department for Homeland Stupidity has the final say on identification in America, especially the gender marker (which seems to have been thrown in as an after thought).
Am I covered legally? Not even close.
As bad as it is in Cali, in some states, you are your birth gender. Period. Forever!
I got my gender changed on my Social Security records, showed them my Driver's Lic, Passport and Surgeon's Letter, no problem.
Maryland will change my birth certificate and my passport will be changed to permanent F upon submission of the surgeon's letter.
Some women in Cali have been able to get their gender changed with a non-specific letter from an FFS surgeon indicating an ireeversible procedure to conform to the target gender. My SRS surgeon's letter is very specific.
Soon, I will be completely legally female.
Although one can get their gender M or F changed on driver's license pre-op, in most states that isn't considered a legal gender change until post op. Even then, there are some states, such as Ohio, where you can't change your birth certificate. If the Real ID act is implemented, this will make it even more difficult.
On another thread, folks have been discussing whether gender attribution even needs to be on legal documents. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,17633.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,17633.0.html)
Zythyra
Well according to the US Federal Government, they recognize you as a different gender once you have completed SRS for a MTF. I don't know what is required for FTM. So when RealID goes in place everywhere, it will mean everyone who's states are following the federal guidelines will have to follow the federal standard of SRS. Its not so much harder, just a longer wait for the official nod of being legally a female.
Quote from: Tink on August 14, 2007, 02:49:07 AM
What about if you have children and divorce your spouse? will they give you custody or at least visitation rights? what about alimony for the children?
I know for the state I live in (I'm currently dealing with this), according to the law (which a judge may not always follow) custody and visitation is normally decided between the parents and if that doesn't work, neither one is automatically awarded based on gender. Alimony is normally awarded based on the amount of income each parent makes. Child support is calculated on the percentage of time the children spend with each parent and the income of each parent (offset by the alimony received).
I'm not certain of the jail question though and I'm not willing to test it either. :P
Tell me about it Zythyra, I am one of those unlucky ones who was born in Ohio. The will change the name, but NOT the gender marker.
Oh well.
Sarah L.
QuoteWell according to the US Federal Government, they recognize you as a different gender once you have completed SRS for a MTF. I don't know what is required for FTM. So when RealID goes in place everywhere, it will mean everyone who's states are following the federal guidelines will have to follow the federal standard of SRS. Its not so much harder, just a longer wait for the official nod of being legally a female.
And non recognition of gender change of anyone who is pre or non-op. grrrrr
QuoteTell me about it Zythyra, I am one of those unlucky ones who was born in Ohio. The will change the name, but NOT the gender marker.
Sorry about that Sarah, hopefully that will get changed sometime soon!!
Zythyra
Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 14, 2007, 04:48:32 PM
Tell me about it Zythyra, I am one of those unlucky ones who was born in Ohio. The will change the name, but NOT the gender marker.
Oh well.
Sarah L.
Move to California and you can get a California birth certificate.
Quote from: Tink on August 14, 2007, 02:49:07 AM
How do you know you are LEGALLY a woman? In other words, how do you know if your true gender is recognized by law?
Are you legally a woman when you change your name? or do you become legally a woman when you change your gender marker on your drivers license?
It depends entirely on where you are at the moment. The gender marker on your drivers license tells you your legal gender in the state that issued it, but as soon as you cross state lines you have to check their laws. Your passport will tell you what the federal government identifies as your gender, but the states are not required to accept their opinion. Your birth certificate indicates your gender in your birth state. There are states like Texas, Kansas, and Ohio that refuse to accept gender change.
Posted on: August 16, 2007, 10:59:26 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 15, 2007, 10:27:59 PM
Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 14, 2007, 04:48:32 PM
Tell me about it Zythyra, I am one of those unlucky ones who was born in Ohio. The will change the name, but NOT the gender marker.
Move to California and you can get a California birth certificate.
No, you cannot. You can only get a birth certificate from your state of birth.
Posted on: August 16, 2007, 11:05:04 AM
Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 14, 2007, 04:48:32 PM
Tell me about it Zythyra, I am one of those unlucky ones who was born in Ohio. The will change the name, but NOT the gender marker.
There is an alternative method. Send the required documentation to the U. S. Department of State and get a new passport with your correct gender marker on it. Then use your passport as your primary means of identification instead of your birth certificate. The DMV in any state will accept your passport gender marker as correct.
In Alberta (Canada), you need to have GRS (SRS) in order to have your gender marker changed legally. You need two letters, one from the surgeon who preformed the GRS/SRS and one from an independent doctor declaring under oath that you have a vagina. I know some people here are trying to challenge that and have been for years, since not all people can get GRS (medical reasons or otherwise).
There are a few people, however, who have gotten there gender marker changed without going this route by someone who was unaware of the proceedure. Basically, you walk in and you say that you have an error on your card and some people, although rare, have had there gender marker changed that way, but only on their license.
Your Alberta Healthcare card can be changed as well with the right letters before undergoing SRS, that is the rules; however, many people run into a worker who will not change it unless you have surgery. So, it kind of becomes a luck of the draw thing, sadly.
You can change your passport gender marker if you are undergoing SRS in a year, but by the end of the year you must prove that you've undergone surgery or your passport is revoked, leading to possible future issues.
I know of people who have gotten there passport and Healthcare card changed, and then went into to use that if the person asks for documentation that you are female. It sometimes works. But, technically, they are supposed to use your birth certificate as the proving document, which cannot be changed until GRS. (I think technically, your birth certificate is actually just amended, so the card you have will say F, but in government records it will have your original gender marker and then an amendment for gender change attached to it).
Since I have not undergone GRS yet, my documentation has not been changed.
Posted on: August 16, 2007, 05:18:26 PM
I should mention that here we do not have to go to court to change our names or our gender. Which is nice. Everything is done through a registry.
Regarding Prison and Jails -
We live in CA, and have a friend who is pre-op, and has an F as a gender marker on her DL.
She was arrested after her mother filed a false vadilism charge against her in an attempt to get her "mental help" for her "condition". The damage that was sited was minor, and related to a fight that was instigated by her mother (who attacked her, and bit her BTW)
She was arrested, and treated as a woman until they did the medical screening for the jail, in which they immediately switched pronouns to he, and assigned her to a male jail for 7 days while she awaited a hearing.
When she spoke to the jail's shrink, the shrink said to her, that in jail they don't have to respect your gender, and that it is what is between her legs that defines her as male or female. The shrink called her MR, and Sir, despite her obviously female appearance. whe she objected the shrink degraded her, and told her that it didn't matter what some quack doctor on the outside said, cause as long as she had a D#@$ betweek her legs, she was a man.
She was kept in solitary confinement to keep her segregated from the other prisoners, and was referred to as male by all the staff, except for one or two people who just didn't talk to her.
Mind you, she was NOT convicted of anything, and was released after her hearing.
So in my mind, until you have GRS, you are legally male in the justice system.
(As an update on this case, our friend has been ordered to appear in court, despite the fact that her mother tried to drop the charges. The DA is trying to raise the charge to a felony, which could lead to more jail time. They see her Therapy as a sign of "Mental Instability", and wrote up her Estrogen injections as "Drug Needles" in the police report. It's a bunch of BS that wouldn't have happened if she wasn't trans.)
Sorry to rant, This is just a very personal subject for me right now.
Hugs
Mila
That really sux geo. I hope your friend doesn't go back to jail.
I believe that it is the same thing here, so if I were to go to jail pre-op I'd be thrown into a mens jail. I don't imagine it would be fun at all.
Quote from: genopunk on August 16, 2007, 06:29:33 PM
Regarding Prison and Jails -
We live in CA, and have a friend who is pre-op, and has an F as a gender marker on her DL.
She was arrested after her mother filed a false vadilism charge against her in an attempt to get her "mental help" for her "condition". The damage that was sited was minor, and related to a fight that was instigated by her mother (who attacked her, and bit her BTW)
She was arrested, and treated as a woman until they did the medical screening for the jail, in which they immediately switched pronouns to he, and assigned her to a male jail for 7 days while she awaited a hearing.
This is awful, what county did this happen in? This all comes down to the first advice I got from my gender therapist, do not ever put yourself in danger of getting arrested.
Media Contacts:
Mattheus Stephens, Stock Stephens, LLP, 619-234-5488 x 308, mestephens@stockstephens.com
Christopher Daley, Transgender Law Center, 415-865-0176, chris@transgenderlawcenter.org
July 5, 2007 - John Doe, a 2005 inmate of the Orange County Jail, today successfully settled a civil rights suit against the County resulting in significant policy changes and a settlement sum of close to $50,000. Doe, represented by San Diego law firm Stock Stephens, LLP and the Transgender Law Center (TLC), alleged denial of medical care and gender identity harassment in the suit. The resulting policy changes will formalize policies regarding provision of hormones to transgender inmates and training for medical and corrections staff.
"This settlement is a huge win for our client and for transgender people throughout Orange County," said Mattheus Stephens, Partner with Stock Stephens, LLP. "We signed on to this case because we were appalled by the way our client was treated and believe that this settlement goes a long way towards guaranteeing that the County takes seriously the needs of transgender residents."
"Transgender prisoners around the state and nation are at high risk for abuse and denial of medical care," said Christopher Daley, TLC Director. "We're proud to have worked with Doe and Stock Stephens to not only reach resolution for the harm Doe suffered, but also to have successfully worked with Orange County officials to move forward on these important safety issues. We look forward to working with the County over the next year to implement the terms of the settlement."
In reaching this settlement, the County denied all wrong doing. Doe and his attorneys were impressed by the County's willingness to engage on these issues and their clear commitment to making the agreed upon policy changes.
# # # 30 # # #
Transgender Law Center (www.transgenderlawcenter.org), founded in 2002, provides free legal services to transgender people throughout California and works with community members and partnering organizations on cutting-edge transgender rights policy initiatives.
Stock Stephens, LLP (www.stockstephens.com), Attorneys Lauri Stock and Mattheus Stephens merged their practices in 1999 and shortly thereafter started Stock Stephens, LLP. Together they focus on domestic partnerships, civil rights and human dignity issues, employing their combined 36 years of legal experience in the fight to end discrimination and establish equality for the LGBT community and others.
Quote from: regina on August 16, 2007, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: genopunk on August 16, 2007, 06:29:33 PM
Regarding Prison and Jails -
When she spoke to the jail's shrink, the shrink said to her, that in jail they don't have to respect your gender, and that it is what is between her legs that defines her as male or female. The shrink called her MR, and Sir, despite her obviously female appearance. whe she objected the shrink degraded her, and told her that it didn't matter what some quack doctor on the outside said, cause as long as she had a D#@$ betweek her legs, she was a man.
And while it's not the most compelling personal reason to get SRS, it IS something I mention to non-ops I ever encounter. Stories like this and the horrible death of Tyra Hunter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyra_Hunter
No one ever expects this to happen to them. You can say you feel like a woman all you want, but to much of society, what we have between our legs is the key way of how they identify us. As shallow as that is, I don't plan to be the one who attempts to change the way the penal system deals with gender variant inmates (and, no matter what the laws eventually state, men's jail will NEVER be a safe environment for transwomen). I certainly hope none of us find ourselves in that situation, but there are plenty of people that also didn't expect to find themselves in jail who are incarcerated for completely fraudulent reasons.
ciao,
Gina M.
Thing is, transmen really have no choice in the matter. It's keep what's between your legs or spend 60,000 - 100,000 on 10 stage surgeries that don't produce anything even approaching male genitalia (which most likely wouldn't pass muster in a strip search anyhow).
So how is one declared legally Female or Male in the US?
It appears that there is no clear legal prescedent?
Buffy
The transmen at my gym change and shower in the women's locker room/showers. It seems they are more comfortable in that environment.
Posted on: August 16, 2007, 11:24:48 PM
Quote from: Buffy on August 16, 2007, 11:24:11 PM
So how is one declared legally Female or Male in the US?
It appears that there is no clear legal prescedent?
Buffy
http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html
State to state breakdown
Once you have had GRS, you can file a legal gender change in court.
I have had several friends do this, and they have not problems in regards to this change.
(BTW, my friend who is having the legal problems lives in CA as well, in the US)
Quote from: regina on August 16, 2007, 10:36:35 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 09:28:37 PM
Thing is, transmen really have no choice in the matter. It's keep what's between your legs or spend 60,000 - 100,000 on 10 stage surgeries that don't produce anything even approaching male genitalia (which most likely wouldn't pass muster in a strip search anyhow).
While I can appreciate the hard place so many transmen find themselves in with regard to the cost, complexity and mixed results of ftm genital surgery (although, again, I think metoidioplasties are a very good alternative) the reality is that a transman in a women's facility isn't under the same level of danger that a transwoman is in a men's facility. I'm not saying it wouldn't completely suck to be a transman in that situation, but try to imagine being a transwoman surrounded by some pretty violent, very sexually aggressive characters. Yes, there are many people in that exact situation within the prison system and most of them live through a system of prison yard protection and often tend to be at the center of a lot of violence between inmates. Do you know of situations where transmen are either in a woman's facility or if there is a case of a transman being in a men's facility? (it'd be VERY shocked if that happened) Never heard of such a thing, but I'd be interested to know.
Gina M.
*sigh*
First off, I made a statement about the difficulty of transmen to ever be viewed legally as men in these types of situations. Nowhere did I discuss danger levels or anything of the sort. You posted something amounting to 'why surgery is the way to go'. I simply stated that transmen don't really have such an option.
This is the second time you have turned a benign statement of mine into a pity party for transwomen.
Why do some transwomen feel the need to shout from the rooftops how hard they have it?
Why do they feel the need to state what a bowl of cherries they think a transman's life is?
Do they harbour some kind of resentment towards transmen?
Secondly, I know all about TG women in prison. I've heard plenty of stories and descriptions from friends on the inside.
So don't tell me to 'imagine' anything. To be honest, the assumption that I don't know or care about violence on transwomen is insulting. I never ever said anything of the kind. My friend's TS girlfriend was found in a dumpster with her face smashed in. His pain was my pain. Stop with the insinuations that I care nothing for the violence on transwomen.
This is the last time I address any pity party posts flung at me from transwomen simply for being a transman.
The hardships trans folks (men and women) go through are very personal and profound. It's never a good idea to question, criticize or mock the efforts of another. It hurts. It offends. It forms walls amongst us. Nuff said.
Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 12:57:53 AM
Quote from: Nero on August 17, 2007, 12:37:18 AM
First off, I made a statement about the difficulty of transmen to ever be viewed legally as men in these types of situations. Nowhere did I discuss danger levels or anything of the sort. You posted something amounting to 'why surgery is the way to go'. I simply stated that transmen don't really have such an option.
What I wrote about was the possible dangers of being non-op in this society as it currently exists. Both in prison and in situations as where Tyra Hunter died. I was talking about specific instances in connection to the post about the transwoman who was incarcerated. If there was a pity party, it's you taking this discussion out of context and, out of nowhere, turning into bemoaning how you don't have surgical options... which in fact, you do. So what's your problem with that, dear? What are we complaining about now? Not enough attention?
The discussion from what I read was about being legally considered a man or woman. I quoted your post with genopunk's post embedded from your quote. Genopunk's post dealt solely with being seen as your birth gender in jail.
Your post said 'I always mention this kind of thing to non-ops.'
So I simply stated that not all TS have the option of being physically congruent enough to pass muster.
Instead of addressing my post, you immediately started in on 'we have it so much worse than you' rant.
A simple 'So what.' in response to my statement would've sufficed.
As for the rest of this:
Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 12:57:53 AM
QuoteThis is the second time you have turned a benign statement of mine into a pity party for transwomen.
Why do some transwomen feel the need to shout from the rooftops how hard they have it?
Why do they feel the need to state what a bowl of cherries they think a transman's life is?
Do they harbour some kind of resentment towards transmen?
When you experience the same level of violence and scorn in society that transwomen do, then you're ENTITLED to call it a 'pity party.' I prefer to call it the ugly truth. Sorry, I forgot we have to be equal in terms of the what we face from society or else little brother throws a tantrum.
QuoteSecondly, I know all about TG women in prison. I've heard plenty of stories and descriptions from friends on the inside.
So don't tell me to 'imagine' anything. To be honest, the assumption that I don't know or care about violence on transwomen is insulting. I never ever said anything of the kind. My friend's TS girlfriend was found in a dumpster with her face smashed in. His pain was my pain. Stop with the insinuations that I care nothing for the violence on transwomen.
That assumption was your creation and your own issues. Kindly don't dump them on me. I stated a tragic factual case about a transwoman who was, in affect, murdered for being a nonop. You decided to make it into your own little crusade. I can't control how you interpret things. But I never insinuated anything of the kind. In past, I have said you have some obnoxious attitudes concerning feminism and I don't appreciate a lot of the language you use about women, but I've never made any kind of suggestion about your insensitivity toward violence and I find it hurtful that you're suggesting I did.
And again, a discussion is derailed into something that has little to do with the important original question asked. I want to apologize to the other people participating in this thread for taking it off in a very upsetting direction. These are some very important issues of safety we were discussing.
Gina M.
Beep. Beep. Beep.
We're sorry, but Nero doesn't address pity party posts of this kind.
Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 01:57:44 AM
Quote from: Nero on August 17, 2007, 01:35:28 AM
Beep. Beep. Beep.
We're sorry, but Nero doesn't address pity party posts of this kind.
Hello... Operator, there's a madman I'm trying to call who isn't picking up on the other end. Yes, he thinks he's talking to other people but he's really talking to himself. [nods head] Uh huh, yes, one of THOSE. Operator... is there anything that can be done for this person... he's really a sweetie even though he can be highly annoying sometimes... what do you recommend?
[nods head] uh huh... uh huh, uh huh. I see... I see, I see. Let him stew in his own juices but tell him how much you still care about him? Thanks... thanks for your help. I'll do exactly as you said.
ciao,
Gina M.
LoL *hugs Gina*
Sadly enough, I LEGALLY am a woman... still. :'(
It's easy and cheap enough where I live to change your name legally, which takes care of most issues, (aside from that tricky Passport thing).
My problem is that I can't change my name legally unless I wish to potentially mess up a possibly rather large inheretance. What's a poor guy to do...?
Thanks for bringing up this topic... it makes for some thought provoking questions that we all have to deal with.
Scott
i've changed my name & gender marker with my local dmv and ss office. i can only change my birth certificate after grs. it's a matter of days now. ;)
My government happily and cheerfully changed my gender on everything after chest surgery. They then happily and cheerfully declined to cover any medical procedures or tests that males do not get.
Yay governments.
Dennis
Quote from: Buffy on August 16, 2007, 11:24:11 PM
So how is one declared legally Female or Male in the US?
It appears that there is no clear legal prescedent?
Buffy
You are talking about a concept that doesn't exist. There is no such thing as being declared legally F or M in the US. That power exists only at the state level, and no law requires any state to recognize any other state's action in this reguard.
I'm not sure about the US, Gina. In Canada, top surgery suffices for changing everything, including passports. Just being on T is sufficient for a British Columbia driver's licence.
Unfortunately I have a UK birth certificate, so I'll have to jump through their hoops at some point.
Dennis
One little question, once I'm legally female in Canada, do I just send the docs to change my SSN in the US (I worked there for 3 years), the next time I work or become resident there? Are there other identifications that woud linger in the US, probably credit report, but I never had a US issued credit card (I used my Canadian issued one and just changed the address when I moved) and I last time I paid a phone or whatever bill in the US was in 2003. At the state level, I had a driver license in California but when I moved to Quebec I had to give it back in exchange for my Quebec one in 2003.
Quote from: regina on August 16, 2007, 11:13:47 AM
I'm going back and forth about my birth certificate.
Anyone have any other good reasons?
ciao,
Gina M.
The Real ID Act. I suggest you change it as soon as you are able. The provisions for the law were only pushed back to the end of 09. If you do not then the Department of Homeland Security can force all of your gender markers to match what is on the birth certificate. They are the authority and for the gender area there are no guidelines set down yet.
Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 10:53:39 AM
For the drivers license you'd just go to the DMV with your passport, and wait in line to be insulted and dehumanized like everyone else.
Hmm, I wasn't insulted or dehumanized when I did this, and I did it before I went fulltime. It actually went quite smoothly and they treated me as a woman including calling me ma'am. I think it's really something that's hit or miss with how you are treated, but my point is that there ARE experiences like mine that go just fine.
Quote from: regina on August 17, 2007, 10:53:39 AM
Quote from: Dennis on August 17, 2007, 09:34:57 AM
I'm not sure about the US, Gina. In Canada, top surgery suffices for changing everything, including passports. Just being on T is sufficient for a British Columbia driver's licence.
Unfortunately I have a UK birth certificate, so I'll have to jump through their hoops at some point.
Dennis
Ooh, Canada. I didn't know you were one of THEM (actually, small request: can you kindly sponsor me, give me a job and let me move in with you for a few years? Pleeez.). Glad it wasn't too overly complicated to do that. Now, are there any us 'Mericans out there who can answer my question within the context of the land of the unfree?
ciao,
Gina M.
I'll look up other states. Mine full SRS is required. (may be a small but doubtful loophole) Some states require a hysterectomy. I was lucky enough to be born in one of only 2 states that never change birth certificates no matter how much surgery, therefore I can never really achieve stealth. There is a very slim chance I can even get my license changed.
Quote from: Nero on August 17, 2007, 12:19:35 PM
I'll look up other states. Mine full SRS is required. (may be a small but doubtful loophole) Some states require a hysterectomy. I was lucky enough to be born in one of only 2 states that never change birth certificates no matter how much surgery, therefore I can never really achieve stealth. There is a very slim chance I can even get my license changed.
This is the link to change your gender marker on a drivers license:
http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange
To change your birth certificate where applicable:
http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html
U.S. passports for transsexuals:
http://www.geocities.com/sherrylanina/TempPassport.html
QuoteSSA (Social Security Administration) records
Prior to 2002, some pre-ops were able to change the sex marker on their Social Security record. Having an orchiectomy seemed to improve the odds that the clerks would be willing to change the sex marker, and some were even lucky enough to encounter a clerk who was kind enough to change the sex marker without any surgery at all.
But on October 3rd, 2002, the Social Security Administration changed their rules and now refuses to change the sex marker until you have had the complete SRS surgery. Some pre-ops who managed to change their sex markers before October 2002 have even reported that the SSA changed those markers back to M.
SSA policy for changing data on their records:
https://s044a90.ssa.gov/apps10/poms.nsf/0/cc131541aa8b691685256e410011e5d9?OpenDocument
One of those PMS moments with the SSA:
http://www.geocities.com/sherrylanina/SSA.html
Some exceptions:
http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=524
I believe that things will get even worse with the upcoming Real ID Act law...
tink :icon_chick:
In Australia especially South Australia the wording of Legislation states that you must have had affirmation surgery that could be hormones to alter your genitals or SRS with a neo vagina. All you need is a letter from a psychiatrist and one from a psychologist to verify you are on hormones to alter your genitals. I did mine without the letters and just explained to the people what was going on and that I could get letter from my doctors and therapists if they like and they said no thats fine. I think they are sick and tired of all the red tape and government handling of gender issues.
Sara.
Here in Hawaii, They will amend your BC and DL. However, the pre-op information will always be on record. i.e. at the bottom of my amended BC, states this document has been amended. Which can always be reffered to, by city and state employees. Thus, you can only be stealth, to those who are not privy to the info. Other then that, as long as your post-op you can consider yourself a legal women.
I have a lot of pre-op friends, who still deal with not being accepted as a legal women...SUCKS! but true.
I have no interest in the legalities......many transsexuals have bits of paper saying this or that and are legally female but they are still taken as male on face value, so the documents don't really help them.
We have the 'Gender recognition bill' in the U.K which is really only in existance because people are not excepted as female...if a gender change was successful the 'Gender recognition bill' would not exist.
My true gender doesn't exist, legally.
'Nuff said.
Hi Katia, congrats, Join the ranks of some of us old timers, I went through all that 7 years ago. I just run across the link for this group that was way buried in my email and here I am again. Got curious. ;D
Sincerely
Cynthia
Posted on: September 06, 2007, 02:29:31 AM
Hi Keira,
A friend of mine told me that the best thing to do with Social Security is to contact them and ask where to send any papers showing a change of name and/or gender. A certified copy of your birth certificate or a court order approving your change(s) will usually suffice. Don't expect any annuity payments from Social Security on just 12 quarters (3 years) of contributions. Ask them how to handle it so you don't lose whatever money you have paid-in to Social Security.
As for credit reports and other things following you from California to Canada, I wouldn't be concerned. I have come to learn that Canadian banks don't pull U.S. credit reports. In any case, Canadian law protects us better than U.S. laws in many important socioeconomic areas.
Cynthia
I've got all my papers changed with the exception of birth records. I will take care of that wee problem after GRS.
Hi Berliegh
Heck I sometimes had people mistaken my gender identity before I even transitioned. So I just stepped out of my apartment one morning as Cindy and all my boss was concerned about was my safety. Not a word has ever been said about my other gender ID, As far as I'm concerned that morning I walked out as me and never looked back. I felt much like the lady in the song Harper Vally PTA. Well here it is going on 8 years later SRS behind me, traveled over half the US and have moved from Ontario to British Columbia and not a nasty word ever said to me. Of course I'm an easy person to get along with. I believe I have a wonderful outgoing personality. I like to laugh and joke around just as much as any other in my company. ;D
Cynthia
Quote from: cindybc on September 06, 2007, 03:39:24 AM
Hi Berliegh
Heck I sometimes had people mistaken my gender identity before I even transitioned. So I just stepped out of my apartment one morning as Cindy and all my boss was concerned about was my safety. Not a word has ever been said about my other gender ID, As far as I'm concerned that morning I walked out as me and never looked back. I felt much like the lady in the song Harper Vally PTA. Well here it is going on 8 years later SRS behind me, traveled over half the US and have moved from Ontario to British Columbia and not a nasty word ever said to me. Of course I'm an easy person to get along with. I believe I have a wonderful outgoing personality. I like to laugh and joke around just as much as any other in my company. ;D
Cynthia
Long before I ever started transition I was taken as female most of the time and pulled up and even questioned when I had a male bank card and ID and asked 'Where did you get that', it's a man's card', did you steal it'?.....but there is also a flip side...
I've read a lot of stories about Transsexuals in the U.K who are far less fortunite and have been through the whole GRS route and changed all their legal documentation only to get thrown out of a ladies toilet and pub as their were complaints that 'men' were in the ladies toilet. The Transsexuals went to court but lost their case.....This proved that the legal documentation didn't help or support them in any way.
Unfortunitely the true sad reality is that people are still taken at face value no matter what paperwork they may have.
Quote from: Berliegh on September 06, 2007, 04:48:14 AMUnfortunitely the true sad reality is that people are still taken at face value no matter what paperwork they may have.
Which can actually be an advantage to some people.
Well nobody seems to have given this face a second look. I am 62 years old and some say I look some 20 years younger then my real age but I am certainly nothing exceptional.
Cindy
I prefer to look physically a women more than being interested in bits of paper which do not always help the individual....see my earlier post for details..
Hi Berliegh
Judging by your Avatar I would say that you should pass easily enough. You take into consideration as to how many GG's out there that appear androgynous or even more male looking then feminine. Many people out there don't think at all and wouldn't notice a pterodactyl standing in the middle of main street with it's wings fully extended out shrieking at them. Most folks live in a very small box and don't take much notice as to their surrounding and the ones that do notice don't give a damn. It is mostly on how you present yourself. I mean if you present yourself as your true self *the woman within* you will get mammed by those who do notice. Just one word of caution, never go for a walk on a down town street after dark when most stores are closed. There are some undesirables that haunt the streets after dark. Your coming out and how it will work out depends greatly on attitude and how you present yourself.
I was fortunate that I grew up mostly in the care of my mom and I idolised here and I remember thinking how she looked so much like a princes when she would get all dressed up to go out. I think she suspected or knew about who I was from birth. Back in those days it was not uncommon for a mother to let their boys hair grow long from birth. I have a very good memory of my early childhood and I can still remember with clarity from the age of three when there were times my mom dressed me in girls clothes and proudly paraded me before her friends, and that was also not uncommon in those days.. So I was sometimes my moms suck as well as her little girl. When I turned six years old, school age, I had to get my long locks cut off at a barbershop, and how I cried over loosing my hair. Of course I was very close to my mom and I followed her around the house like I was her shadow and I picked up many things from her, like not just chores but cooking, cleaning the house and doing the laundry as well I also inherited many of her mannerisms as I grew up. After I transitioned I just let those mannerisms come to the surface.
I had my second experience at being a girl when I ran away from home and joined up with some hippies. I had my dark brown hair back long again, butt length to tell the truth, and at fifteen years of age I very much still had the feminine features and with my half way voice everyone thought I was a girl and I certainly wasn't about to disappoint them of the notion. I lived in a commune as a girl for a year and a half and in the meantime I fell head over heals in love with this tall skinny kid with long blond hair and a small goatee under his chin. I remember how it reminded me of a billy goat. But then unfortunately fantasies don't last forever and I had to go back home.
I must admit it takes a lot of guts to come out even with the short term previous experiences I fortunately acquired, It was still a scary proposition for me. It didn't mater to me what anyone said or didn't say in the end you are the only one who has to make the decision to be her and live as her, and once out there is simply no turning back and if you truly are transsexual I guarantee you you will not have any desire to go back, it's a one way street. If I had known what I know now back in my teens I would probably have transitioned right there and then. But the thing is there just wasn't much of any kind of support for transitioning in those days, if any at all. But believe me the longer you sit on the fence the harder it will be to get off that fence. I wish I would have done it year ago, but since I didn't I will savor every second of what's left of my life living it as who I am. I also had the experience of playing the roll of being a *mother* to 11 children through the years and now I am a *grandmother* of six.
Sorry if this got a little long and all over the map but I guess I could say that I have just told another part of Cindy's story. ;D
And I want to thank you kids so much for for taking time to read this, hmmm like spilt ink on a map.
Quote from: cindybc on September 09, 2007, 07:14:27 AM
Hi Berliegh
Judging by your Avatar I would say that you should pass easily enough. You take into consideration as to how many GG's out there that appear androgynous or even more male looking then feminine.
fortunitely I do pass. that was exactely my point......I'm very lucky, I have never needed bits of paper...... ....but the one's who do usually get a raw deal and they get thrown lot of ladies toilets and changing rooms despite going through GRS and carrying legal documentation. The paperwork doesn't help them, I've witnessed these cases in the U.K and know these girls who went to court and lost their case.
We need to look at this again and deal with the real issue's behind why paperwork like the 'Gender recognition bill' is needed.......
Hi Berliegh
Oh yes I am quite aware of those that have had problems even with proof of identity. I guess like you, I was lucky that way and I have never ad any problems with using the ladies room.. I did get all of my documents changed to the proper gender after SRS but I am still thankful that I have never had to find out if they would be accepted in such cases as you mention.
I pray I never have to find out so fare the only reason I have had to use my ID is for crossing the border, to fill out certain forms or documentations or for renewal of drivers licence and such. I guess all one can do is to send prayers to Great Spirit for the safe keeping of these girls. Sometimes that is all one can do for others is to pray for them.
Cynthia
Quote from: cindybc on September 09, 2007, 09:20:03 AM
Hi Berliegh
Oh yes I am quite aware of those that have had problems even with proof of identity. I guess like you, I was lucky that way and I have never ad any problems with using the ladies room.. I did get all of my documents changed to the proper gender after SRS but I am still thankful that I have never had to find out if they would be accepted in such cases as you mention.
I pray I never have to find out so fare the only reason I have had to use my ID is for crossing the border, to fill out certain forms or documentations or for renewal of drivers licence and such. I guess all one can do is to send prayers to Great Spirit for the safe keeping of these girls. Sometimes that is all one can do for others is to pray for them.
Cynthia
Sorry Cindy, I should have mentioned I had changed most ofl my documentation in 2003 (Driving licence, passport, national insurance, bank cards/accounts, hospital number, voting documents etc), the only thing that hasn't been changed is my birth certificate. It doesn't bother me as no one has ever asked to see it.......
I got so much hassle in supermarkets when I still had male bank card and staff asking me where I got them from. Once I got arrested and they said 'it's a man's card', did you steal it'.......so it's the flip side to most TS experiences...... so I had to change them to female to avoid any more questioning or hassle.
Hi Berliegh
I to and all on the same day. I got all the forms I required and got money orders to cover the fee and sent them all out the same day. Sheeeeesh can you imagine me, who hates paperwork doing all that in one day? I would sooner walk through a bed of coals then do paperwork.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on September 10, 2007, 04:59:01 AM
Hi Berliegh
I to and all on the same day. I got all the forms I required and got money orders to cover the fee and sent them all out the same day. Sheeeeesh can you imagine me, who hates paperwork doing all that in one day? I would sooner walk through a bed of coals then do paperwork.
Cindy
I did it all on the same day as well.
But there's far more to a transition than paperwork.....
Hi Berliegh
Your right, it depends much on how you feel about yourself inside. Are you happy with the child within. Ya I say child because I feel more youthful now then I ever did for many years. I feel good about myself and I feel confident about myself. Also instead of the dreaded depressions I use to get, I get emotional instead. Like from one extreme of the emotional scale to the other. Did you know that both emotions, the negative ones and the positive ones when they reach their peek they are equal in their intensity. there is no difference, I usually say prayers and send these emotions as healing for all. who are in need. and that is how I deal with emotions.
I have done little in the way of appearance, the hormones mostly took care of that as I have said before on which ever thread that I never aspired to be a beauty queen, just be myself, the innerself which I call the inner child. But I can't say I don't feel a bit jealous when I see a pretty lady on the street.. Well anyway I should be happy that this 62 year old woman can still attract the attention of some men. "Hee, hee."
Cindy