**Possibly some triggering things here**
Since I'm non binary, I get some pretty off putting responses from people at times. From other trans people. Which is pretty upsetting to say the least. Not everyone does, but some people give me a hard time. Such as, "so wait what are you a guy or a girl? " "Why do you want top surgery but not bottom surgery" "so you aren't actually trans? I mean you don't want hormones or to be called a guy you can't just pick parts of being trans" It goes on. Since I'm posting in a forum I kept the language civil but I get nasty language in a lot of those comments irl. How do you, if you've experienced this, deal with it? I find easier to ignore the ignorant straight cisgendered people but when it's people who are supposed to be part of the same community, other trans people, that's when it bothers me.
We don't do "more trans than thou" here at Susan's. Anyone who does is in violation of ToS.
Happens a lot for so many under the umbrella.
Have to be a better person then they will be.
It i feel makes us stronger in the end.
Hugs
You need to do what you need for you, not anyone else who might try to tell you what you need to do.
Be yourself not what others would make you.
Quote from: Jill F on November 25, 2014, 08:31:26 PM
We don't do "more trans than thou" here at Susan's. Anyone who does is in violation of ToS.
That's good to know. I'm new here so I was wondering if there was a policy against it. Makes me feel a lot more comfortable.
Quote from: White Rabbit on November 25, 2014, 08:38:42 PM
You need to do what you need for you, not anyone else who might try to tell you what you need to do.
Be yourself not what others would make you.
I'll keep that in mind. I'm quite happy to see how supportive people here are.
It's mostly based on (educated) ignorance. Sometime malicious, sometime harmless and simply educated ignorance. Depending on which it is, you could reeducate them on the spot. When I just started, I was asked plenty of times if I was a she male. I corrected the educated ignorance and explained what that term means and that it does not apply to being trans*. One soul at a time...
You don't need to justify anything about yourself to anyone else. If they ask too personal of a question, just tell them that discussion of that subject is not open for debate or discussion. Period.
Remind them that gender exists on a spectrum, just as is hair color, intelligence, sexual orientation...everything about humans is on a spectrum.
Quote from: GrayBaby on November 25, 2014, 08:19:02 PM
**Possibly some triggering things here**
Since I'm non binary, I get some pretty off putting responses from people at times. From other trans people. Which is pretty upsetting to say the least. Not everyone does, but some people give me a hard time. Such as, "so wait what are you a guy or a girl? " "Why do you want top surgery but not bottom surgery" "so you aren't actually trans? I mean you don't want hormones or to be called a guy you can't just pick parts of being trans" It goes on. Since I'm posting in a forum I kept the language civil but I get nasty language in a lot of those comments irl. How do you, if you've experienced this, deal with it? I find easier to ignore the ignorant straight cisgendered people but when it's people who are supposed to be part of the same community, other trans people, that's when it bothers me.
Gray Baby
It is unfortunately often the case that folk will invalidate you, either consciously or unconsciously. Lateral violence is abhorrent but unfortunately occurs far too often. An apparently innocent remark or an off handed comment to a non binary can be intensely confronting and triggering. My only advice is to focus on who you are and stay focused on your journey. At the end of the day the only person who should be concerned as to your choices and direction should be you. Best response is to ignore and to avoid confrontation.
Safe travels
Aisla
People are can be very insensitive about what it means to be trans. There is no one right way to be trans. Trans persons are a wide mosaic not just one decided stereotype. Don't let closed minded people trigger you or make you uncomfortable. You can correct them or tell them it's non of their business. People need to realize that we make different choices but that does not make us more or less trans.
Hey,
I'm sorry this happened! I personally don't believe in binaries, I believe in spectrums. And there is no such thing as (not) trans enough.
I*'m not trans enough,I go to the punk festival,listen to punk,metal & rock,hardly ever wear make up,don't wear heels or dresses,don't colour my hair,like classic bikes & muscle cars,sometimes shoot pool,don't like gay bars(or any other)l.All stuff I shouldn't be doing
It's easy to say, don't worry about what other people think, what matters is how you see yourself.
But we humans are social creatures. We are not as separate as USA-an individualism would like to think we are (cf.: John Donne's "No man is an island", (http://jhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Meditation_XVII) which BTW I read at our TDOR last Saturday.) How others see us diffuses into how we see ourselves. We exist to the extent others recognize that we exist (remember Doc Daneeka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Daneeka) in Catch-22?) To invalidate who someone is is an act of violence; an act of soul-violence, but just as deadly as physical violence. That's why living in the closet is so destructive, and why people feel compelled to show the world who they really are, even if it gets them killed (literally or figuratively.)
We are the mirrors of one another's souls. It is vital for our survival that we be willing to see one another for who they are, not for who it would make us more comfortable for them to be.
There's no such thing as "not trans enough".
Great news everyone! I just ran "not trans enough" through The Universal Translator and that sucker melted down! :laugh:
Quote from: GrayBaby on November 25, 2014, 08:19:02 PM
How do you, if you've experienced this, deal with it?
Great question, GB.
I'm an educator. My job is to educate people. I fall back on that when I encounter ignorance.
When I see the attitude you're describing, I try to get people to understand a few basic facts:
* There is no right way or wrong way to be trans
* Everyone experiences being transgender in a slightly different way.
* Being non-binary does not disqualify us from ANY of the interventions and transformations that help binary folk. We are just as entitled to surgeries, hormones, or social transition as any other trans people.
There is a current growing within the trans* community that trans* people are simply 'born that way' which sadly opens a back door to essentialist narratives of the right kind and wrong kind of trans. Sadly as non-binary and genderqueer individuals don't fit the accepted narrative of trans as defined by the cistem; stuff like being trans means you have to transition, often to the opposite gender; you always have strong physical dysphoria related to your genital configuration and secondary sex characteristics; you have to know from a very young age, etc, etc, etc. Basically all the tired old tropes that get trotted out when ever mainstream media does a trans story.
Because the cistem views these as truths, many trans* folk do, to the point where many folk who definitely aren't cis don't identify as transgender because their narrative doesn't fit the narrative transgender has come to represent. It is an act of violence by an oppressive cistem to validate certain narratives of trans* existence as acceptable - not valid, because trans* lives are always less valid than cis - and trans folk who parrot those views are merely instruments of that violence. The limited acceptance of some trans narratives, means that it can be hard for people to acknowledge other narratives because by doing so, it shows how meagre and limited the acceptance is of the 'acceptable' narratives.
Sadly these acts of violence from the cistem can be hard to counter, by granting a few crumbs of superficial acceptance to one disenfranchised group, the cistem has primed them to perpetuate the very thing that disenfranchises them in the first place. Intersectional feminism however is a great place to start and can help you navigate and to try and educate individuals - though you are under no obligation to have to educate anyone you don't want to. In fact, if you need to carefully explain your lived experiences and why they are valid to someone for them to respect you identity and life, then they really don't respect you and probably have no desire to.
I recently (Monday night) gave a presentation on trans* cultural competence to the local county human rights commission. I explained non-binary in this way:
"In the realm of sexual orientation, we see that people's can be attracted to the same sex, the opposite sex, both, or neither. So in the realm of gender identity, it is unsurprising that we also see people identify with the same gender they were assigned at birth, or the opposite, or both, or neither."
The idea of non-binary is hard for most people to wrap their minds around. It's even hard for me as a trans* person who spends umpteen bazillion hours with non-binary folks. But that's no excuse for treating the non-binary part of our community as "less than" or "other." What it does show is that sometimes the most important group of people to educate and the most important recipients of advocacy about trans* people are . . . other trans* people.
My personal belief is that non-binary identities are the overwhelming majority of our community, but that people don't understand or feel comfortable enough with the idea to express or recognize it. I certainly cannot know what happens in another person's head. But I can see a lot of how people express their identities. The example of a trans woman whose behavior and expression is extremely masculine comes to mind. Or a trans man whose behavior and expression are extremely effeminate. We've probably all seen people like that who insist their gender identity is very binary. But the gender expression doesn't seem to match what they say about their identity. The expression seems very non-binary, which makes me wonder whether the underlying identity is really so binary. I don't know a way to test that, but I strongly suspect that this shows non-binary to be a majority in our community.
No one is safe from the "not trans* enough" thing. It is an unfortunate part of our community. My own history was: (1) not trans* enough because I looked androgynous while presenting male; (2) not trans* enough because I didn't spend enough time at bars with drag performers and crossdressers; and (3) not trans* enough because I started seeming too much like a ciswoman.
So . . . you're not alone. Everyone is "not trans* enough" to someone.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on November 26, 2014, 10:03:44 AM
Sadly these acts of violence from the cistem can be hard to counter, [ because ] by granting a few crumbs of superficial acceptance to one disenfranchised group, the cistem has primed them to perpetuate the very thing that disenfranchises them in the first place.
QFT
This is a tactic that's used all over the place. The "good" blacks vs. "thugs". The "moderate" feminist (e.g., Sarah Palin) vs. the "bra-burner."
Quote from: Asche on November 26, 2014, 12:47:20 PM
QFT
This is a tactic that's used all over the place. The "good" blacks vs. "thugs". The "moderate" feminist (e.g., Sarah Palin) vs. the "bra-burner."
Sarah Palin as a feminist??? Pleeeaaaaase :P
Quote from: Asche on November 26, 2014, 06:04:48 AM
It's easy to say, don't worry about what other people think, what matters is how you see yourself.
But we humans are social creatures. We are not as separate as USA-an individualism would like to think we are (cf.: John Donne's "No man is an island", (http://jhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Meditation_XVII) which BTW I read at our TDOR last Saturday.) How others see us diffuses into how we see ourselves. We exist to the extent others recognize that we exist (remember Doc Daneeka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Daneeka) in Catch-22?) To invalidate who someone is is an act of violence; an act of soul-violence, but just as deadly as physical violence. That's why living in the closet is so destructive, and why people feel compelled to show the world who they really are, even if it gets them killed (literally or figuratively.)
We are the mirrors of one another's souls. It is vital for our survival that we be willing to see one another for who they are, not for who it would make us more comfortable for them to be.
A very good post and your point is well made. My earlier comment was that I think that it is best to try to maintain focus on your own truth. IMHO even as social beings we need to understand and to keep focused on our truths. Yes contrary opinions, criticism, ridicule, rejection, invalidation does hurt but then so does a life based on fear and denial. As with most things there is a path which works for you. I can't and wont let the the opinions of others dominate and determine how I live my life. If I can't pursue my truths then really what is the point?
Safe travels
Aisla
Quote from: JulieBlair on November 26, 2014, 01:19:20 PM
Sarah Palin as a feminist??? Pleeeaaaaase :P
she can field dress a moose
Quote from: JulieBlair on November 26, 2014, 01:19:20 PM
Sarah Palin as a feminist??? Pleeeaaaaase :P
I had a laugh at that one :D
But anyways...
There is no 'level' or 'scale' to being trans. But i often think that there is this influence in small parts of the community to 'abide' by what a stereotypical gender role is. But to that i say keep breaking and tearing down the binary for a brighter future :) Goodluck and enjoy your stay at Susan's Place :)
I want us all to simply be ourselves and leave others be unless they are perpetuating harmful behavior. I have absolutely nothing against a trans man who wears flannel and has a beard and drives a big truck and works out a lot. That's cool, that's him. But then still, if a trans man is gay and likes neon colors and interior design that's fine too. And if a trans woman likes motorcycles and whiskey and dresses, she isn't weird or any less of a woman. Some of us are in that more traditional definition of masculine or feminine. Some of us are in between. I agree with the idea that a lot of the violence within our own community comes from people who have allowed themselves to fall beneath the expectations of the people who are against any trans persons existence. It's kind of like internalized misogyny and sexism. Our society and culture is so affluent with something, that some of us forget to think for ourselves, we absorb it, and then don't even realize that trying to police people's gender by some strict definition is just as bad whether you're trans or not. And just because some people accept the trans people who they determine are "deserving" of being called by their gender they identify as, that isn't acceptable itself. Giving a few trans people a gold star sticker and saying okay long as you're like this, I'll accept you, is a kind of violence itself. A man is a man if he says he is. A woman is a woman if that's her identity. Our clothes or how much we shave, or our hobbies, do not determine if we get to be called by our own identity. I do wish more of us would break from the binary. A scale can't define a human being, we are far more complex than that, and we do ourselves a disservice by perpetuating it. Most people even ones who do fall on the extreme ends of the binary probably have some parts of themselves that do not fit that. And I believe we would all live happier lives if we accepted that a big bearded man might like ballet or that that a woman who loves dresses and high heels and gets her nails done every week also wants to be a mechanic. It's a personal thing. It's all okay. And yes trying to focus on yourself and what makes you happy and feels right is very important. But even the most self confident person can be affected by cruelty or judgement from their peers. That's why I think it's so important we stop trying to police each other. That's why it bothers me that when I post online about wanting top surgery and raising donations for it, people accuse me of all kinds of things and say there are boys who deserve it more than me because I don't want hormones at this point in my life and don't know if I ever will. Trans people have had to deal with enough discrimination, we shouldn't have to fear each other as well. You have all made very good points. I'm glad I decided to make this post. It's been very cathartic. I didn't expect so many comments, especially ones that I wholeheartedly agree with, and it makes me confident that I can continue to come here.
Quote from: Asche on November 26, 2014, 12:47:20 PM
QFT
This is a tactic that's used all over the place. The "good" blacks vs. "thugs". The "moderate" feminist (e.g., Sarah Palin) vs. the "bra-burner."
There's nothing more heartbreaking or blood curdling to me than lateral violence. I call these people the Uncle Ruckus's of their groups. Unfortunately they're not as funny to watch as he is.
To the OP: I've experienced it to a small extent irl and a handful of times online. My course of action is usually to avoid and ignore such people. I'm not sure what else to do. The alternative is to fight them or educate them, and I just don't have the energy for that usually.
I'll confront people on their nonsense when it comes to trans issues in general, but when it comes to my personal life that's not up for debate. They can't know what I am or what I'm not anymore than I can. Least not until they come up with some magic brain test to see who's really trans and who isn't. And even if such a test existed it would simply show us the biology we're dealing with. It wouldn't dictate the ethics we would follow on how to deal with our feelings and how to live our lives.
I think that also, non-binary is a relatively new thing to the trans community. My current therapist told me that she's recently (past couple of years) seen an influx of non-binary trans people whereas she'd previously never heard of them before. Traditionally, being transgender meant you wanted a total makeover to the opposite side of the spectrum. Now that we've expanded the definition to be more inclusive, and are discovering that we can transition only partially, or to something non-binary, or not go on hormones and have surgery, or whatever, it's ruffling some feathers.
Anyway, a ton of FTMs want top surgery and not bottom surgery, what are those people giving you grief for??
Quote from: Gothic Dandy Luca on December 02, 2014, 04:20:26 PM
I think that also, non-binary is a relatively new thing to the trans community. My current therapist told me that she's recently (past couple of years) seen an influx of non-binary trans people whereas she'd previously never heard of them before. Traditionally, being transgender meant you wanted a total makeover to the opposite side of the spectrum.
One big factor in this is gatekeeping by the medical profession. Until recently, treatment of trans people was focussed entirely on "total makeovers," and trans people who failed to aspire or adhere 200% to the stereotypes of their target gender were excluded from treatment, (in a lot of places and a lot of practices, it's still that way.) Just as institutionalized sexism pervades standards of medical care for women (and it used to be much, much worse), so the traditional standards of medical care for transgender people were built upon transphobic (and often transmisogynistic) attitudes. This leads to people finding out the "correct" answers and saying what the doctors want to hear, rather than being honest.
I wonder how much of the change that therapist sees is an actual increase in the number of non-binary and less gender-conformant trans people and how much is just people lying less.
Quote from: Asche on December 02, 2014, 04:52:13 PM
One big factor in this is gatekeeping by the medical profession. Until recently, treatment of trans people was focussed entirely on "total makeovers," and trans people who failed to aspire or adhere 200% to the stereotypes of their target gender were excluded from treatment, (in a lot of places and a lot of practices, it's still that way.) Just as institutionalized sexism pervades standards of medical care for women (and it used to be much, much worse), so the traditional standards of medical care for transgender people were built upon transphobic (and often transmisogynistic) attitudes. This leads to people finding out the "correct" answers and saying what the doctors want to hear, rather than being honest.
I wonder how much of the change that therapist sees is an actual increase in the number of non-binary and less gender-conformant trans people and how much is just people lying less.
Wow! I'm sure glad that I missed out on that bit of discrimination. Three years ago I believed that I was a pretty typical MTF woman. The realization that I am far more complex than that was actually a shock. It was the people on this forum who helped me find a different way of viewing who I am and my therapist who gave me the validation I needed to explore and accept my own gender fluidity. What I do think is happening in the trans community is increased acceptance of the notion of a spectrum of gender identity. It seem obvious to me now, but for my brothers and sisters who transitioned a decade or more ago. The prejudice of the broader community almost necessitated that they deny that which did not confirm the stereotypical masculine and feminine roles. Those who diverted were brave indeed.
Julie
It's very interesting to read that some of you think that non-binary people are less and less rare :). I hope it's true !! I also think that the fact medical team gave a very rigid frame for transition influenced a lot (if didn't give birth to) that "not trans enough" idea (which is, in my opinion, a complete non-sense).
But there's still a question I can't solve :
there is a lot of persons, trans* or not, that are very far from gender stereotypes. I know a lot of boys that are very "feminine", some girls that are quite "masculine" and it's perfectly logical : nobody is so simple to stick to stereotypes. But they don't seem to have any problem with that or hate any part of there body. They even often "like" their gender and claim it. So why can't some of us stand being gendered ? What exactly makes the difference ?
I'm not sure what trans means. I might not be included in the modern definition myself. Definitions keep changing, its been years since I looked up what things meant.
Quote from: Jill F on November 25, 2014, 08:31:26 PM
We don't do "more trans than thou" here at Susan's. Anyone who does is in violation of ToS.
This is the post which convinced me to register and participate here, after weeks of just-reading. ;D
Quote from: Ptero on December 04, 2014, 05:03:18 PM
It's very interesting to read that some of you think that non-binary people are less and less rare :). I hope it's true !! I also think that the fact medical team gave a very rigid frame for transition influenced a lot (if didn't give birth to) that "not trans enough" idea (which is, in my opinion, a complete non-sense).
But there's still a question I can't solve :
there is a lot of persons, trans* or not, that are very far from gender stereotypes. I know a lot of boys that are very "feminine", some girls that are quite "masculine" and it's perfectly logical : nobody is so simple to stick to stereotypes. But they don't seem to have any problem with that or hate any part of there body. They even often "like" their gender and claim it. So why can't some of us stand being gendered ? What exactly makes the difference ?
In my case to be gendered is to be labeled and I've been labeled for as long as I can remember. Sissy, ->-bleeped-<-ot, bitch, boy, man, slut, t-obvious, have all been epithets directed to me. To be labeled here as t-girl, trans woman, even mtf, is simplistic and ignores the texture of who I am. I guess I am just tired and done with labels of any sort. Yes I am a transexual person, presenting as female, and genetically male. So what? The truth about me is far more complex and far more interesting than how I present or what surgeries I have endured.
I think dysphoria enters into it as well. My body has never fit who I am and that dissonance was only made worse when it was pointed out to me that I was a boy. I wasn't, and to be reminded that my body looked like a dude only made the feelings of inadequacy and ugliness worse. It finally became a trigger for depression that almost killed me. I no longer wish to die.
If you need to use a gender label as a mental heuristic, then you are only putting me and others in boxes once again. Boxes which do not fit. Boxes which are incomplete. That is why many here object to he and she, preferring they and their. Julie always works ;)
My goal is a life of discovery and authenticity. My goal is happiness and usefulness to both the trans community, and my larger community of friends and lovers. I have all of this in my life today and only ask for, and always try to give, acceptance and respect from everyone.
Peace,
Julie
You just need to be who you want be and not let anyone tell you other wise. I'm Trans but I accept everyone. Ever since I joined Susan's I found a place to solve problems and make friends. You're in a safe place here.
With Hugs Dawn
Quote from: Hanazono on December 28, 2014, 01:28:00 AM
Someone told me I should not participate in this forum if I did not identify as trans. ???
I don't "identify" as Trans (or as male or female.) I
conclude I'm trans, based on some of the things I feel and do. (At least on the days when I'm not telling myself I'm just making it up to get attention.) So far, nobody has yet told me to get out.
IHMO, unless it's one of the Mods telling you that, with their Moderator hat on, I'd ignore it.
Quote from: Asche on December 02, 2014, 04:52:13 PM
One big factor in this is gatekeeping by the medical profession. ...This leads to people finding out the "correct" answers and saying what the doctors want to hear, rather than being honest.
I wonder how much of the change that therapist sees is an actual increase in the number of non-binary and less gender-conformant trans people and how much is just people lying less.
Indeed.
During the course of my discussing my gender "stuff" with my doctor & later getting referred to a specialist, i would switch my presentation from sloppy-guy to girly-female & a few things in between. At one point, she did express uncertainty about me beginning T, raising an eyebrow when i arrived at her office in pink fishnets and a leopard minidress. She told me right then that she would talk with some other trans* specialist health care providers about nonbinary identities, because she'd never personally reommended T for someone who "looked so feminine."
I was worried (will this mean i can't get treatment?), but a part if me accepted her hesitation; honestly i don't blame her for having concerns and questions. I insisted on not lying to obtain treatment. (She later apologized & agreed that T has been good for me.)
Once i got to a specialist at an informed-consent clinic, the process was swift. I actually thought, "don't you want to gatekeep me just a little?" Because truth be told, i had uncertainties! Yet i was assured that after i tried, i would likely know if it was right, and many binary trans people also feel unsure & nervous too when they begin HRT, even if they are 100% sure they are transsexual. It was validating to hear that nervousness is okay. It is a big decision after all.
I am glad i was honest, insisted from the start that i feel "in between" genders, or "other," and in many ways enjoy my femininity. T has been good so far, although i do have doubts sometime because i'm "going it alone." These forums are where i can hear from other nonbinary people who also choose to transition in a variety of ways. I plan to seek out support groups at my college after winter break. :)
Binary transsexual people, and nonbinary people who had to jump through the SOC hoops, paved the way - at great risk to themselves - for our rights & freedom to modify/correct our own bodies, and to be respected as our true gender/s (or lack thereof). It is thanks to these binary folks that openly nonbinary folks and queers like me are slowly finding understanding & access to treatment that is right for us. I'm very grateful.
According to the DSM, I'm not trans.. I don't make the diagnosis.
Lucky for me, my therapist trusts his experience more than the DSM..
What Kelly said. Same.
DSM exists in USA no where else, it is a document for the medical insurance industry in the USA.
Quote from: Cindy on December 29, 2014, 06:20:16 AM
DSM exists in USA no where else, it is a document for the medical insurance industry in the USA.
I just wish that industry was required to cover gender dysphoria. I am out of pocket for hormones and ops are considered non needed cosmetic surgery.
Nor will anyone concede DES as a factor.
Upsetting.
Hi Cindy. :-)
Quote from: Cindy on December 29, 2014, 06:20:16 AM
DSM exists in USA no where else, it is a document for the medical insurance industry in the USA.
I'm well aware of that, Cindy, I was merely making a point.
Coverage for transgender people in the United States is sadly dependent on where you live. In sixteen states it is required, in the balance not so much. Sadly Florida is not on the list of mandatory coverage, and so folks whose insurance coverage is dependent on their employer are often left out in the cold. This will eventually change, but probably not any time soon. :(