WARNING: What follows is an opinion that many will probably NOT enjoy reading. Try to recall it is an opinion and not the word of deity and only directed toward you if you believe it to be.
All you gals who came here thinking you were gonna find out, please go ahead and leave before reading anything.
Those of you who thought you might come in to extol how well you exude that essence, hmm, yep, you better go ahead and find something else as well.
I really doubt that any people who came for either of those two reasons are gonna like what you find. You may even get a bit angry.
I would rather not be subject to venom, so please do not read if you KNOW that you have the essence of womanhood. Thanks.
No, I am not angry. Nor am I particularly bothered by those who might fit what I am about to rant about. In fact, I see this rant as being not much of a rant at all. Just some observations and following opinion.
Many TS women have no clue about the essence of womanhood. I have just about decided that there is none, at least not if you are gonna talk about it.
I highly agree with the Dhammapada in which Siddartha states: Those who speak of it do not know. Those who know do not speak of it.
Yes, he was saying that about enlightenment. Not a bad quest for any transitioner, imo. I find it applicable to "leading a woman's life" as well. Another kind of enlightenment, maybe.
1) I am 100% woman!
Sorry, if you have to tell me that, I'm gonna start noticing just how much you are not.
Excitement at transition can be a giddy experience. BUT ...
Trust me. After awhile, if you are lucky, you will realize that the giddiness needs to go. Fast. Life is right in your face.
Job, school, kids, dates, paying the bills what have you. Yes, you will be 100% if you are able to keep your mouth shut, get over transitioning and make your life on your life's terms. That is the Essence of Womanhood.
2a) I pass all the time.
So, why are you telling me that if I haven't asked? (See #1 again, you need the refresher.)
When you carry your child to appointments at the doctor's, dentist's, grocery. When you don't have a child and find yourself going to work without makeup and no breakfast because you overslept.
When you have to work twice as hard just to get the same recognition as the guys in the office. When you absolutely KNOW that dammit, this gender thing is no bed of roses. AND shrug that off as life?
Then you are living in the essence of womanhood.
2b) I am beautiful. People tell me so. Same tune, then why are you so quick to let me know? (See 2a.) Honey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you are spending that much time in front of a mirror after a year or so of transition: YOU are NOT beautiful. You are wishful.
3) Men open doors for me.
They often do for my great aunt. If they don't, I do, because she has trouble with them.
Get over it. That is a culturally related activity and has nothing to do with the essence of anything other than social mores.
In fact, it can be rather insulting if you are not my great aunt. What! You think I am too damned weak to open a door? Go mow the yard for me if you really wanna do something worthwhile. Chop a cord of wood for the fireplace!
4) I feel domestic.
Maybe so, but keeping a house clean when someone, or a number of someones, actually live in it is not fun. If domestic were so grand, you'd be paying your au pair and housekeeper some real money, now wouldn't ya?
Lookit, a lot of us apparently watched Leave It To Beaver when we were either very young and it was on as a current show, or we watched a lot of reruns on Nick. June Cleaver was not the Essence of Womanhood. Neither was Laura Petrie. Not then, definitely not now. This is not your momma's Oldsmobile, honey.
Come back to 2007.
Summation: The Essence of Womanhood is being a real woman. If you find the definition, the essence of the essence, please let me know what you discovered.
If it's that men tend to be agency oriented and women tend to be communion oriented, don't bother telling me. I already know that.
Otherwise, just live your life as best you can, go home tired, relax, take your shots regularly and BE A WOMAN. The drama is not the essence.
Nichole
Edited to incorporate Shiva's suggested rewording of a sentence.
re: Passing issue. I have hesitated to say this but I concur. There are those on TS forums (not so much here) who take every opportunity to tell the group how well they pass. I feel exactly like you, if you pass so well, why do you need to reinforce it on an anonymous forum?
I have a habit of leaving the TV on while I do other things (a bad habit BTW but that's another topic) my ears perked up when I heard the voice of a transwoman on a promotional announcement, I looked up and saw visually a woman, probably a Dr O graduate, the promo was a show about people who do a lot of plastic surgery and maybe too much, she was in for a procedure to revers aging, she obviously didn't need any more feminization. The point being almost no one who transitions past their teens passes all the time 100%, (the good news is that this woman passed 100% to the people on this show, nothing was mentioned about her being trans) Other than the safety and, perhaps, job considerations, there is no reason to be obsessed about passing all the time. One cannnot control how other people see you and their perception of you is meaningless (unless they attack you or fire you.)
And I will repeat my mantra---even though Westerners won't get it ;)---attachment to passing (and certainly the attachment to passing "flawlessly") will only lead to dukha i.e. suffering.
Nicole,
I don't know why you felt the need to state all of this?
Dhammapada in which Siddartha states: Those who speak of it do not know. Those who know do not speak of it.
These words that you used could apply to what you have just said in length.
I'm sure you feel 100% woman and are just that. I'm happy for you. As far as passing goes, we get all excited about passing and if it happens and no we aren't going to pass all the time, some more than others, but there will be times when we are read and if that person doesn't say anything, we still feel like we passed. No matter how old we are when we transtition, we will look at ourselves in the mirror to try and make the makeup work for us. As you know, we never had the pre-teen era for that kind of child's play. So we do it now. I don't think that we are that vain to think we look in the mirror to see how pretty we are. You are right, we are beautiful inside, all of us. Opening doors, what a nice gesture of being polite. I open doors for people all the time and I get doors open for me. I love the gesture and it makes me feel special, not so much a woman, but just that someone else thinks to help another person out. There are other little gestures that happen all the time. Doesn't it make you feel special and wanting to do an act of kindness? Oh yes, how about the chores around the home. I have been doing domestic, if you want to call it that, since I was 8 years old. My mom said that when I move out that I could find a wife that will do those things. Well, guess again. I may not have to do as much as when I was at home, but I still do my fair share of all the chores. You see, we both worked and to find time together we did the chores together,38 years. Now that I'm retired sort of, I do most of the chores. I don't feel as they are so much of a burden and something that I'm creating to live and feel clean and have that good feeling about you, when you come home from someplace. You don't have to live in a nice neighborhood to have that feeling.
Susans is a place that we can talk about our living in the opposite gender, maybe for only a few hours to living 24/7. We talk here to find out how to do certain things as we may not have the resources to asked or we might be too ashamed to ask. This is someplace to go and live out a fantasy and maybe someday that wish will come true, as it did for me. I don't have that philosophy of don't ask don't tell.
This is my opinion.
Love Sheila
Quote from: Sheila on August 15, 2007, 04:34:27 PM
Nicole,
I don't know why you felt the need to state all of this?
Dhammapada in which Siddartha states: Those who speak of it do not know. Those who know do not speak of it.
These words that you used could apply to what you have just said in length.
As it could be applied to virtually anything posted here.
QuoteAs far as passing goes, we get all excited about passing and if it happens and no we aren't going to pass all the time, some more than others, but there will be times when we are read and if that person doesn't say anything, we still feel like we passed.
I guess anywhere from a thousand to five thousand people see me in any given week, unless I survey (and get an honest answer) each one of those people, I will never know how flawlessly I pass. That is another reason why I think it is questionable to be bragging about how well one passes, since there is never any concrete way to gauge it.
EDIT: Sheila, I am Nicole, without the H...
Nicole
Love yourself and watch -
Today, tomorrow, always.
First establish yourself in the way,
Then teach,
And so defeat sorrow.
To straighten the crooked
You must first do a harder thing -
Straighten yourself.
You are your only master.
Who else?
Subdue yourself,
And discover your master.
Wilfully you have fed
Your own mischief.
Soon it will crush you
As the diamond crushes stone.
By your own folly
You will be brought as low
As you worst enemy wishes.
So the creeper chokes the tree.
How hard it is to serve yourself,
How easy to lose yourself
In mischief and folly.
The kashta reed dies when it bears fruit.
So the fool,
Scorning the teachings of the awakened,
Spurning those who follow the dharma,
Perishes when his folly flowers.
Mischief is yours.
Sorrow is yours.
But virtue is also yours,
And purity.
You are the source
Of all purity and impurity.
No one purifies another.
Never neglect your work
For another's,
However great his need.
Your work is to discover your work
And then with all your heart
To give yourself to it.
BTW not everything I post here is to be taken at face value and I don't post emoticons to indicate tongue-in-cheekiness. Maybe I should, as a lot of times, people can't see I am joshing, anyway... carry on.
"Use the Buddhist as a human shield, they won't mind."
Nichole, I agree with you and thank you for posting that.
--natalie
spot on bird. this is quite true.
SO many times those phrases crop up, and usually the person saying them hasnt a a clue about life as a woman,
so many obsess over transition, and spend so much time trying to be women, they dont make it... and never will.
when you think your beautiful, your either a liar, or deluded, nearly all women have something they would change or dont like. and none of my friends consider themselves beautiful, some will admit to being sortof pretty, but women are modest about thier looks for the most part, something ->-bleeped-<-s miss... and usually its the ones that ARNT beautiful.
Passing 100%? if your passing, your not a woman, women dont need to pass, they are. dont give me the bs about sometimes a woman is mistaken for a man, thats not the same, women are women, men are men, if your socially accepted as female, visually, mentally and otherwise, then you are a woman, your not passing, passing suggests acting. and i cant honestly belive folk who claim to pass 100% of the time. thier usually wrong!
R :police:
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 15, 2007, 05:25:50 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 15, 2007, 05:01:17 PM
BTW not everything I post here is to be taken at face value and I don't post emoticons to indicate tongue-in-cheekiness. Maybe I should, as a lot of times, people can't see I am joshing, anyway... carry on.
Thanks, Nicole. So you just refuse to use the emoticons?
O my, a stubborn Buddhist! :laugh: :laugh:
Need to start placing that into my calculations when I read your posts!! ??? :D
Thanks for the info!
Nichole
Whoa, another pic of my twin!
Posted on: August 15, 2007, 06:25:58 PM
Quote from: Rachael on August 15, 2007, 05:57:55 PM
spot on bird. this is quite true.
SO many times those phrases crop up, and usually the person saying them hasnt a a clue about life as a woman,
so many obsess over transition, and spend so much time trying to be women, they dont make it... and never will.
when you think your beautiful, your either a liar, or deluded, nearly all women have something they would change or dont like. and none of my friends consider themselves beautiful, some will admit to being sortof pretty, but women are modest about thier looks for the most part, something ->-bleeped-<-s miss... and usually its the ones that ARNT beautiful.
Passing 100%? if your passing, your not a woman, women dont need to pass, they are. dont give me the bs about sometimes a woman is mistaken for a man, thats not the same, women are women, men are men, if your socially accepted as female, visually, mentally and otherwise, then you are a woman, your not passing, passing suggests acting. and i cant honestly believe folk who claim to pass 100% of the time. thier usually wrong!
R :police:
R, your (new?) attitude about "passing" is spot on. Quite frankly, I wish there was a forum devoted to passing and passing only, the topic really gets old. As we know, passing referred to Jews passing as Non-Jews, and Blacks passing as White, these are people trying to pass as something they are not. That is not what we are doing, or should be attempting to do. As pointed out by Sheila and myself, there is no way to determine exactly how well one passes, if you aren't getting sirred, or him or he, that means one is passing reasonably well but it doesn't mean that one is lock-down stealth unreadable.
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 14, 2007, 05:10:17 PMI highly agree with the Dhammapada in which Siddartha states: Those who speak of it do not know. Those who know do not speak of it.
And many who do not speak of it, also do not know. I see many people on here never speak about topics that they do not know anything about. ;)
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 14, 2007, 05:10:17 PM
When you carry your child to appointments at the doctor's, dentist's, grocery. When you don't have a child and find yourself going to work without makeup and no breakfast because you overslept.
Um, yep. ::) I just did the second one this morning in fact. :P I've done the "walking to places with your child because you don't have a working car" thing too within the past year.
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 14, 2007, 05:10:17 PM
When you have to work twice as hard just to keep up with the guys in the office for recognition. When you absolutely KNOW that dammit, this gender thing is no bed of roses. AND shrug that off as life?
Then you are living in the essence of womanhood.
I agree that gender thing in and of itself may be no "bed of roses", it only allows you to act within a certain set of socially acceptable parameters. However, don't accept that viewing being a woman as something bad is required to be "living in the essence of womanhood." I know that I have experienced extreme dysphoria by growing up in a male body/life, so now that I'm finally able to just be a female, I make sure to enjoy every moment of that to the best of my ability. In other words, I do experience the simple joy in being a woman, but that's only because I have such a good basis of comparison.
Here's an analogy for you. Say you suddenly find yourself homeless. You are cold and living on the streets for months constantly afraid of danger and often hungry. Now let's say you come across an opportunity that you take and you are finally are able live in a house once again. That house may not be perfect, but at least you have shelter and food. Don't you think you would appreciate that house SO much more than you ever would have before, because now you *know* what it was like not to have one?
That's exactly the way I feel about being a woman. Had I been born in a female body, I probably would have been living just about the same kind of life I am now, but I wouldn't have that appreciation for being female that I have now. If you take being female for granted, then you have gained nothing from all the suffering you went through all those years.
Thanks Rach, Nat and Nicole, but especially to LIT for my favorite passage from the Gita! I had never read that translation before. HUGS. HUGS for all.
I am not feeling vinegary today. But, I do really think we need to watch ourselves a bit more closely at times. It's great to be able to see one's own beauty, but I've always felt better when others have pointed it out to me, rather than the other way around. Same with most things. Kudos work better as gifts from others rather than purchases for myself.
I understand that this woman needs to live her life and leave the living of others' lives to themselves. I understand I am not wise as Krishna, but I have some experience. :)
Anyhow, we all learn, hopefully.
Nichole
what i dont understand, is peoples obsession with identifying as trans, or a ts woman. or thier need to be out, for me, this isnt something i want to remember, and once i finish transition (at grs yes...) ill get on with my life as a girl and leave this far behind, some say thats impossible, but maybe thats more thier desire for being 'special' or attention seeking. Im told im in denial if i identify solely as a woman. sorry, but thats just me. and i dont see how they have a right to tell me what i must identify as, and what is a part of who i am. trans is not part of me. and it neednt be. i think peoples views and responses on this forum, and the subjects in this topic say a lot about them. i for one, wouldnt mind having a normal life and normal problems one day. and it IS possible before someone tells me ill never be normal.
R :police:
Now that I look at my pic and my baby sis's (Sharon Stone) I see that Sharon is a masculine version of me, lower brow, wider jaw, longer upper lip, fuller lips though...but more make-up to mask her male face!
Posted on: August 15, 2007, 07:11:11 PM
Quote from: Rachael on August 15, 2007, 07:09:20 PM
what i dont understand, is peoples obsession with identifying as trans, or a ts woman. or thier need to be out, for me, this isnt something i want to remember, and once i finish transition (at grs yes...) ill get on with my life as a girl and leave this far behind, some say thats impossible, but maybe thats more thier desire for being 'special' or attention seeking. Im told im in denial if i identify solely as a woman. sorry, but thats just me. and i dont see how they have a right to tell me what i must identify as, and what is a part of who i am. trans is not part of me. and it neednt be. i think peoples views and responses on this forum, and the subjects in this topic say a lot about them. i for one, wouldnt mind having a normal life and normal problems one day. and it IS possible before someone tells me ill never be normal.
R :police:
Who is obsessed with IDing as trans, I don't see that. OTOH if you want to be a trans activist, you have to be out. And later transitioners have so much history, it's hard to erase. I can perfectly see younger transitioners putting this behind. I am on the way to do this myself and I am just healing from my GRS and only three years fulltime.
Ten years from now R, I can't see you living as anything but a "normal woman."
I still don't see you in a "cocktail dress" though! LOL
Quote from: Rachael on August 15, 2007, 07:09:20 PM
what i dont understand, is peoples obsession with identifying as trans, or a ts woman. or thier need to be out, for me, this isnt something i want to remember, and once i finish transition (at grs yes...) ill get on with my life as a girl and leave this far behind, some say thats impossible, but maybe thats more thier desire for being 'special' or attention seeking. Im told im in denial if i identify solely as a woman. sorry, but thats just me. and i dont see how they have a right to tell me what i must identify as, and what is a part of who i am. trans is not part of me. and it neednt be. i think peoples views and responses on this forum, and the subjects in this topic say a lot about them. i for one, wouldnt mind having a normal life and normal problems one day. and it IS possible before someone tells me ill never be normal.
R :police:
I get wanting a normal life. I don't get why acknowledging who you are without shame, precludes you from that. It seems like you're ashamed of your past, and that can't be healthy. I mean, is hiding your transition going to make for a normal life, or a paranoid one? I don't feel like being transgender invalidates at all my life as a woman.
oddly, me neither! just not yet :P im too much of a raving tomboy. though with my recent interest in pink nailvarnish, and desires to own a dress, i may well end up in a cocktail dress! as long as its beyond sexy :D
heck, pigs have flown... ask american airways..
R :police:
You are welcome for the passage. :) I have recently restarted on my journey along the noble eightfold path and I find myself re-reading things once known but lost in time.
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 15, 2007, 07:21:08 PM
I get wanting a normal life. I don't get why acknowledging who you are without shame, precludes you from that. It seems like you're ashamed of your past, and that can't be healthy. I mean, is hiding your transition going to make for a normal life, or a paranoid one? I don't feel like being transgender invalidates at all my life as a woman.
Well im really not deneying my past, as i never really had one, no landmarks to speak of, no friends. no major events. there isnt much to forget. I didnt necesrily say hideing it. but to be honest, im ashamed that im trans, its one of the main things that haunts me. i hate the fact i have to do this. i dont want to, but im a girl, i have to. Nomatter how much transgender is accepted, it will never be on a par with being a natal woman i fear. im not transitioning to be asecond class citizen, just a girl.
think im wrong? mad? deranged? probably. but with society as it is, i will be embaraced about this.
R :police:
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 14, 2007, 05:10:17 PM
1) I am 100% woman!
Sorry, if you have to tell me that, I'm gonna start noticing just how much you are not.
Excitement at transition can be a giddy experience. BUT ...
Trust me. After awhile, if you are lucky, you will realize that the giddiness needs to go. Fast. Life is right in your face.
Job, school, kids, dates, paying the bills what have you. Yes, you will be 100% if you are able to keep your mouth shut, get over transitioning and make your life on your life's terms. That is the Essence of Womanhood.
2a) I pass all the time.
So, why are you telling me that if I haven't asked? (See #1 again, you need the refresher.)
When you carry your child to appointments at the doctor's, dentist's, grocery. When you don't have a child and find yourself going to work without makeup and no breakfast because you overslept.
When you have to work twice as hard just to keep up with the guys in the office for recognition. When you absolutely KNOW that dammit, this gender thing is no bed of roses. AND shrug that off as life?
Then you are living in the essence of womanhood.
2b) I am beautiful. People tell me so. Same tune, then why are you so quick to let me know? (See 2a.) Honey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you are spending that much time in front of a mirror after a year or so of transition: YOU are NOT beautiful. You are wishful.
3) Men open doors for me.
They often do for my great aunt. If they don't, I do, because she has trouble with them.
Get over it. That is a culturally related activity and has nothing to do with the essence of anything other than social mores.
In fact, it can be rather insulting if you are not my great aunt. What! You think I am too damned weak to open a door? Go mow the yard for me if you really wanna do something worthwhile. Chop a cord of wood for the fireplace!
4) I feel domestic.
Maybe so, but keeping a house clean when someone, or a number of someones, actually live in it is not fun. If domestic were so grand, you'd be paying your au pair and housekeeper some real money, now wouldn't ya?
Lookit, a lot of us apparently watched Leave It To Beaver when we were either very young and it was on as a current show, or we watched a lot of reruns on Nick. June Cleaver was not the Essence of Womanhood. Neither was Laura Petrie. Not then, definitely not now. This is not your momma's Oldsmobile, honey.
Come back to 2007.
Summation: The Essence of Womanhood is being a real woman. If you find the definition, the essence of the essence, please let me know what you discovered.
If it's that men tend to be agency oriented and women tend to be communion oriented, don't bother telling me. I already know that.
Otherwise, just live your life as best you can, go home tired, relax, take your shots regularly and BE A WOMAN. The drama is not the essence.
Nichole
"I'm 150% woman, pass 149% of the time. I look like a movie star, men succumb to my feet and are tantalized by my voluptuous, hourglass, feminine figure" >:D >:D >:D >:D what is wrong with this quote? >:D I don't see anything wrong with it! >:D >:D ;D ;)
I think that the problem here is that some women tend to associate womanhood with what I usually call "barbie syndrome". The "essence" of a woman is that invisible aura/vibe/energy that others
feel when they are around you. It doesn't have anything to do with wearing the right lipstick, acting/looking like a plastic bimbo, or having DDD boobs!
On the other hand, I also think that Sheila has brought up some excellent points. Honestly, I do enjoy when men open the door for me; it just shows me that although an endangered species,
gentlemen are still out there, willing to show courtesy. Nowadays it's very easy to find men, but it is almost impossible to find
a gentleman amongst men. :)
Wonderful responses kitty cats!
tink :icon_chick:
yes! thier dieing out, but its nice when you find one, i hate guys who barge ahead or let doors slam in your face. some common decency and oldfashioned gentlemanly behaviour goes a long way :D
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 15, 2007, 07:53:00 PM
...but to be honest, im ashamed that im trans, its one of the main things that haunts me. i hate the fact i have to do this. i dont want to, but im a girl, i have to. Nomatter how much transgender is accepted, it will never be on a par with being a natal woman i fear. im not transitioning to be asecond class citizen, just a girl.
So do you feel inside that having a transgendered past automatically makes a woman inferior to a GG? It's kind of funny, but I certainly don't *feel* inferior, nor consider myself beneath any other woman just because they were handed being female from birth. It's not the body or past that you have, but what that person does with themselves that makes them better or worse. It's also the same reason I don't automatically respect somebody who was lucky enough to be born into wealth; it's what they do with that money that says what kind of person they are.
not inside, but socially it is, lets be honest.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 15, 2007, 09:16:40 PM
not inside, but socially it is, lets be honest.
R :police:
Only if you let it. I'm not ashamed, nor am I proud; I just am. There's no reason to go around telling people, but there's also no reason to constantly be living in shame or fear of being "discovered".
QuoteAs we know, passing referred to Jews passing as Non-Jews, and Blacks passing as White, these are people trying to pass as something they are not.
One might not necessarily be trying to pass at all, even though in certain situations they do... then one has to make a conscious effort to out themselves. As a Jew, I can be standing in a group of people in which someone says something anti-Semitic. Until the moment in which I say something, and trust me, I will, to them I've passed as white. I wasn't trying to pass, although I did. I am proudly Jewish, and would rather pass as who I am.
QuoteTen years from now R, I can't see you living as anything but a "normal woman."
I still don't see you in a "cocktail dress" though! LOL
How about a slinky cocktail hoodie for Rachael ;D
Zythyra
Nichole,
Great post both challenging and thought provoking, I agree with the majority of your comments in the original post.
IMHO many people transition to remain transsexuals or to end up meeting the stereotypical view of a transsexual (have to wear a skirt, appear overly feminine, lots of make up etc), where passing does become an act and a constant validation of their own mindset. It does take a different mindset to fully integrate into society as a woman, where passing validation is not an issue and life simply and totaly is just that. I also accept that everyones circumstances are different, some may not seek total integration of ever have the opportunities (both financially and socialy) to gain that mindset.
I know some very sucsessful woman, who have a transsexual past. They are part of the corporate brigade that Melissa 90299 talked about in one of her previous posts. No one knows there past, they do not dwell on what they have done, but have risen to Senior positions as women, because they have totally integrated as women and proven themselves as women. Stealth may be an emotive subject for most people, but these women have always been my role models and something I had to aspire to. When I talk to them, I hear no trace of existence of transsexual, they just appear confident, inspired and without a care about their past.
I admire transactivists, they are a brave bunch of people who believe they have to proclaim their transsexuality in order to further the cause of all transsexuals, I can find no fault with this. But personally I hope that many of us can achieve that simply by being here and relating to anyone who has gender issues, that you can overcome them, can go on to lead (what most of society would consider) a normal life. Examples of success in the TS community are fairly rare and at times I think that success is based on the fact that people are TS (and its a novelty) rather than their ability to actually achieve success in their own right as a Woman (or Man).
Many years ago, I had to take time off work (as my partner was ill) to look after my Children. I took them to school on a daily basis and for the first time realized that the glamarous, well groomed, perfectly made up, immacuately dressed woman was a myth. People I knew in a work situation or saw at social functions turned up to the school gate in jogging bottoms, sweat shirts, training shoes, without make up, hair just tied up. I saw them as wives, mothers, but still totally and without question very femimine. At times I think TS's just try to hard to always be that perception of women that society expects (and a lot of that perception is based on what men expect).
I know of many TS's who have to remove all body hair, will not go out without make up, have to try and fit to that stereotypical view of what a woman wears. In a magazine recently I saw a marvellous article about 4 women who where asked NOT to undergo all the personnal grooming or beauty treatments they did daily, weekly, monthly for a period of two months (so as to see what the effect was on thier boyfriends / husbands). Legs where left unshaved / plucked, eyebrows not shaped, underarm hair not removed, no visits to the beauty parlour. Only one guy actually mentioned to his wife, her legs where a bit hairy!
As women, no one questioned their feminimity or their beauty, just because they did not groom, pluck, shave and wax on a daily basis.
From my own personal point of view, I see being transsexual as a phase that I had to go through to achieve womanhood. I accept it is not easy and many people may not make that leap (or want to move) to the next phase or have the right mindset. I have fully integrated into society, I am accepted as a woman and I am extremely happy I have been able to do that. I never think about passing, I never constantly have to validate myself, I wear what I want, when I want, I enjoy getting made up, going out socially, to work, but equally happy slumming around in jeans and a T-shirt, going to the Mall or food shopping without make up and hair just tied up, going to the gym or sweating my butt of in softball training at 110F and 90% humidity, because you know what many of my female friends do exactly the same as that, because its just part of life.
Buffy
uh... what are you all talking about?
;)
Cindi
QuoteFrom Buffy - "I admire transactivists, they are a brave bunch of people who believe they have to proclaim their transsexuality in order to further the cause of all transsexuals, I can find no fault with this. But personally I hope that many of us can achieve that simply by being here and relating to anyone who has gender issues, that you can overcome them, can go on to lead (what most of society would consider) a normal life. Examples of success in the TS community are fairly rare and at times I think that success is based on the fact that people are TS (and its a novelty) rather than their ability to actually achieve success in their own right as a Woman "(or Man).
Response:
Not to be a raving Bit-h or anything, but i found unfortunate issue with part of this statement. I felt it was far too generalized to be valid, at least for myself.
As someone that has recently become more involved in certain activist "events" - for example - the NCTE Lobby day here in DC - making Senate and Congressional appointments to help further equal rights protections in the workplace and other critically important issues.
I consider these issues, and the attendant discriminatory factors which still require people to make themselves heard, to be
human rights issues, and not necessarily "transsexual issues", at all.
Bigotry and continued discrimination, in any part of the world, in any culture, and for any reason, whether it be based on religious, social, cultural, sexuality, or gender expression - is intolerable and horrific, and based in the highest (or lowest) expressions of ignorance, fear, and hatred that still exists amongst the human family at large.
I believe that i do not have to (nor necessarily have i) "proclaim my transsexualism" as it was put, but rather, since i
AM a transgendered person, and these issues DO directly impact MY life and MY future as one such a person (as well, obviously, as many others in the same or similar boat), it is for me a necessary starting point, one based on personal experience, and therefore directly valid and much more easily and powerfully expressed by me personally to others as part of trying to help expand awareness of the plight of anyone being discriminated against, anywhere in the world, for
ANY reason at all.
Gotta start someplace, so i started with what hits closest to home for me personally, as it were.
I totally disagree with this assessment and of the blanket motivational generalization that was made in this statement, and i hope that it will be corrected, as the writer cannot possibly speak for me personally, nor for anyone that they have not met nor personally spoken to in this life.
Thanks,
Sincerely,
Annagirl
Annagirl, you've managed to hit the mark in my book. It's an issue of equal rights for everyone. Equal treatment. An equal opportunity to be happy. Can it be any more simple?
And that brings us full circle to the essence of womanhood. It's something different for everyone to be sure. But ain't it great?
Cindi
Quote from: AnnagirlForever on August 16, 2007, 01:02:11 AM
QuoteFrom Buffy - "I admire transactivists, they are a brave bunch of people who believe they have to proclaim their transsexuality in order to further the cause of all transsexuals, I can find no fault with this. But personally I hope that many of us can achieve that simply by being here and relating to anyone who has gender issues, that you can overcome them, can go on to lead (what most of society would consider) a normal life. Examples of success in the TS community are fairly rare and at times I think that success is based on the fact that people are TS (and its a novelty) rather than their ability to actually achieve success in their own right as a Woman "(or Man).
Response:
Not to be a raving Bit-h or anything, but i found unfortunate issue with part of this statement. I felt it was far too generalized to be valid, at least for myself.
As someone that has recently become more involved in certain activist "events" - for example - the NCTE Lobby day here in DC - making Senate and Congressional appointments to help further equal rights protections in the workplace and other critically important issues.
I consider these issues, and the attendant discriminatory factors which still require people to make themselves heard, to be human rights issues, and not necessarily "transsexual issues", at all.
Bigotry and continued discrimination, in any part of the world, in any culture, and for any reason, whether it be based on religious, social, cultural, sexuality, or gender expression - is intolerable and horrific, and based in the highest (or lowest) expressions of ignorance, fear, and hatred that still exists amongst the human family at large.
I believe that i do not have to (nor necessarily have i) "proclaim my transsexualism" as it was put, but rather, since i AM a transgendered person, and these issues DO directly impact MY life and MY future as one such a person (as well, obviously, as many others in the same or similar boat), it is for me a necessary starting point, one based on personal experience, and therefore directly valid and much more easily and powerfully expressed by me personally to others as part of trying to help expand awareness of the plight of anyone being discriminated against, anywhere in the world, for ANY reason at all.
Gotta start someplace, so i started with what hits closest to home for me personally, as it were.
I totally disagree with this assessment and of the blanket motivational generalization that was made in this statement, and i hope that it will be corrected, as the writer cannot possibly speak for me personally, nor for anyone that they have not met nor personally spoken to in this life.
Thanks,
Sincerely,
Annagirl
Anna,
Yes I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else who actively persues the rights of TS people anywhere in the world. I totally agree that high level lobbying in getting the political and legal position changed is a tremendously important part of activism. Human rights is a very important part of the acceptance of all of us. Yes it was a generalization and not aimed at anyone in particular
The two points I was trying to make (obviously badly) was that you dont have to don a pink T-shirt, proclaim you are TS and march behind a banner in order to show the world you are an activist (but nothing wrong with that if anyone wishes to). Secondly even though I have sucessfully transitioned, view myself as a woman (and not a transgendered Woman), I choose to stick around, as I feel I have experience to offer to anyone here on the forums or in the chat room. I have not forsaken the community that gave me help in my times of need and hopefully will continue not to do so.
Buffy
Buffy no offense, most trans-activist are not what I would call the out and proud types (though they are significantly more likely to be a bit more out). Its a little more complex than that, and stereotyping the activist community in that way...is well...a little off base. Anna is a bit right when it really gets down to it, it really is a human rights issue.
To quote Martin Luther King Jr. "An Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere". When it gets down to it, that is what it is really about, with regards to any civil and human rights issue.
Basically, I find kind of the stereotype that you are putting forth as far as transactivism, well...a bit insulting. I rather avoid that public display, but honestly that does not stop me from assisting transgroups with my policy knowledge and research abilities. Along with years of experience in social justice advocacy and activism.
Generally speaking I am an activist, as part of my profession. I work on everything from consumer issues, to health care, to labor issues, and environmental issues. I spend such a small fraction of my time on trans issues, but the truth is, they are important to me, because it was my own fear of discrimination that kept me from transitioning, but also lead to me to a career where social justice became much of my life. I don't do trans activism just because I am trans, I do it because I care about social justice in general. I did LGBT advocacy since college, and when I could not transition. The truth is being an activist is a much bigger part of my life than being TS. TS is just a condition I am cursed with, being an activist and working to make the world a better place for everybody, is who I am. I am an idealist...it makes me a trans-activist, but it also makes me a consumer advocate, a feminist, an environmentalist, a civil rights advocate, and about a dozen other things.
I have a ton of insecurities...well the truth is, this is the heart of who I am. But I define myself in many ways, female is just one, trans is just another. I am an activist, a musician, a critic, a poet, a philosopher, etc. The entirety of a person when defined in such a limited fashion as ones gender, and ones condition, is ultimately shallow. A person is so much more than ones gender identity. I identify as female, and I was born with male features. But honestly, that is not the entirety of my being, and never will be. No human should be defined in some limited fashion.
I don't know why, but in some ways I found the original post a bit...insulting. Its the type of thing that is written at a transperson, be it man or woman, that is completely disconnected from what its like and why things are sometimes said. It seems like something typically written by the spouse of a trans person, who thinks they know something, but are often missing out on quite a bit of context or real understanding. We have heard this all before, and honestly it comes off as speaking down to us, and generally speaking, insulting. The only reason I say this is because I have seen it dozens of times before. It is almost always used to degrade or insult trans people in some way. I would not go to far to call it borderline trolling.
Next time you want to post something on a transboard like this, read Julia Serano's Whipping Girl. Because honestly, some of us can read subtexts of posts, myself included. There are quite a few generalizations in this post without really quite understanding the cultural context or the history (both personal and community) of trans people. It is quite a bit of the same crap that has been thrown at us for years, and to be honest, we are sick of hearing it.
The truth is transwomen get so much of this crap, it begins to grind on us. So we have every right to call it for what it is: insulting.
Passing is a safety issue first and foremost with most transwomen. We are too often the victims of horrible hate crimes. That is why many a transperson, especially transwomen stress about it.
I did not know being a female or being a male was based on percentages.
Even though we are transsexual, some people use it as an excuse to lecture to us what it means to be a male or female (on both ends) as if they think they are offering good advice. But the truth is, it often comes off as degrading or insulting...and I definitely see that to be the case here. We are still adults, even though we may have new stuff we have to learn. Please treat us as such.
And in the future...keep posts like this that lecture us off transboards. We have heard it all before.
The essence of womanhood...I am sorry, but is not there just the essence of being at peace and being human enough. And living life as one sees fit, without being lectured for who we are and what we have to do to obtain peace.
Everybody is different. Leave them be, and please don't post these things on transsexual boards.
Quote from: Amy T. on August 16, 2007, 02:45:03 AM
... I don't know why, but in some ways I found the original post a bit...insulting. Its the type of thing that is written at a transperson, be it man or woman, that is completely disconnected from what its like and why things are sometimes said. It seems like something typically written by the spouse of a trans person, who thinks they know something, but are often missing out on quite a bit of context or real understanding. We have heard this all before, and honestly it comes off as speaking down to us, and generally speaking, insulting. The only reason I say this is because I have seen it dozens of times before. It is almost always used to degrade or insult trans people in some way. I would not go to far to call it borderline trolling.
Next time you want to post something on a transboard like this, read Julia Serano's Whipping Girl. Because honestly, some of us can read subtexts of posts, myself included. There are quite a few generalizations in this post without really quite understanding the cultural context or the history (both personal and community) of trans people. It is quite a bit of the same crap that has been thrown at us for years, and to be honest, we are sick of hearing it.
The truth is transwomen get so much of this crap, it begins to grind on us. So we have every right to call it for what it is: insulting.
Passing is a safety issue first and foremost with most transwomen. ... But the truth is, it often comes off as degrading or insulting...and I definitely see that to be the case here. We are still adults, even though we may have new stuff we have to learn. Please treat us as such.
And in the future...keep posts like this that lecture us off transboards. We have heard it all before.
The essence of womanhood...I am sorry, but is not there just the essence of being at peace and being human enough. And living life as one sees fit, without being lectured for who we are and what we have to do to obtain peace.
Everybody is different. Leave them be, and please don't post these things on transsexual boards.
Your essay could be seen as being quite true by many of the readers here. Perhaps they regard any criticism as being a net negative.
After years of living with this, I do not choose to see it as either trolling or talking down. I regard it as an expression of my view. If it clashes with yours, that is fine with me. But, the pov expressed is one from a member that I would expect you view as trans.
To live a stereotype and to find in that safety is a bit like finding safety in hiding in the grass. That is fine for a grasshopper, less fine for a water buffalo. The water buffalo is likely to be found. The grasshopper not so much.
My essay was not a trolling expedition. It was and is a pov.
Women are women. There are all different types, Amy. My type is not of the Reagan sort that demands never criticizing what seems harmful to me, even if it comes from one of my own. After all, none of us, I am sure, wish to see even one more girl murdered or beaten. I am sure none of us wants to see another woman raped.
Exactly where does one find a view that walks awry of the party line and expresses that if not on a trans board? Perhaps I should have placed this on a Neo-con board, so it would have resonated with all of the audience? But, would many of them see the difficulties that younger and newer transitioners do or will face? Thus, I believe a trans board is absolutely the right place for a different pov.
I appreciate the right of people to be and act in ways that accord with who they find themselves to be. But, where rubber meets the road to match oneself to a stereotype is an impossibility. The struggles of some to find their place within their gender can be awesomely difficult. I accept that.
Perhaps, it is not out-of-line to point out a few pitfalls.
As for not posting TS-related thoughts and opinions on trans boards: must we now all read from the same version of the Bible? Who will write the Bible? Who will be willing to decide that she or he has the pathway that fits all?
Like any group of people TS people are various.If someone is comfortable being June Cleaver, then more power to her. She or another she or he have every right.
If I were to be a trans-activist I think I would have to do my best to represent all of the spectrum of people and not insist that only certain povs are acceptable. That seems like a much better exercise than does a constant winnowing of what we can and cannot say.
My original post did not insist that anyone agree with me at all. Nor do I insist that you agree. My rant was just that. I went through pretty much every one of the false, imo, poses I presented when I began. I found that to lead my life I needed to get away from the stereotypes. Not at first, but if I wished to lead a womanly life. I do not think I deserve a lecture anymore than you think others do.
There was plenty of warning to begin with. The pov is mine. I was a transsexual at a period of time in my life. I am no longer. If your comfort is elsewhere, that is fine with me.
But to have my pov dismissed as trolling and harmful? I rather think not.
Imo, the ability of trans-people to live abundant lives, and to find each her or his own place within the culture we abide in, is a right afforded to each of us. To only have people posting on this or any other board if they only have a
particular pov seems to me to be inimical to the quest for being seen by others as being simply a part of the natural experience of humanity in all of its diverse ranges.
That post was not directed at any one, maybe even any, individual I have read here. It was directed at what I see as a very harmful and dangerous way of viewing transition. A way to make sure that the boldest question a Larry King can ask of a trans-woman is whether or not she sits to pee. Thus far, that is the very real fact of activism over the past twenty years. Larry now perceives us all as being unable to sit and pee.
That progress seems to me to be minimal. Perhaps he does allow one of us to come on his show, but when he begins to see us as women and talks to us as such, then progress will have reached a stage where one can, imo, say it has been meaningful progress. I doubt that will come by all of us adhering to a one right way concept of talking among ourselves. If we plan to use the divesity of life as a means of effecting changes in perception from among the nons, I believe that we should present the nons with people of whom they can realize:
Hey, that guy is really a guy. That woman is really a woman.That will not happen when we insist that for the good of the Movement that no criticism should be broached among ourselves. The portion of your post I highlighted i find terribly much out-of-step with the view you were seeming to present.
Best wishes in all of your endeavors,
Nichole
Edited to add: btw, I have read all of Julia Serano I can get my hands on. Including interviews. I have never noticed, however, that she will not say things that might be less than critical of women who were/are trans.
Quote from: y2gender on August 15, 2007, 10:11:29 PM
QuoteAs we know, passing referred to Jews passing as Non-Jews, and Blacks passing as White, these are people trying to pass as something they are not.
One might not necessarily be trying to pass at all, even though in certain situations they do... then one has to make a conscious effort to out themselves. As a Jew, I can be standing in a group of people in which someone says something anti-Semitic. Until the moment in which I say something, and trust me, I will, to them I've passed as white. I wasn't trying to pass, although I did. I am proudly Jewish, and would rather pass as who I am.
QuoteTen years from now R, I can't see you living as anything but a "normal woman."
I still don't see you in a "cocktail dress" though! LOL
How about a slinky cocktail hoodie for Rachael ;D
Zythyra
Z, I think the days of Jews trying to pass as non-Jews has long passed (thankfully) I imagine being able to pass in Hitler's Germany would have been a quite valuable skill.
QuoteWhen you have to work twice as hard just to keep up with the guys in the office for recognition.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Talent is talent, aptitude is aptitude; if a woman is good at something, she's good. If she's bad, she's bad. Same with men. It has nothing to do with gender.
"Having to work twice as hard to keep up with the guys" is NOT the "essence of womanhood." The
real women I know, from all different starting points in life, are as capable and intelligent as their male counterparts. They do not use their gender as an excuse or a reason why they aren't as good as so-and-so. I would despise them if they did.
Now, because of the way you worded it, it's possible that the actual meaning is that women get less recognition for the same (or better) work. The problem is the use of the words "keep" and "up" in that sentence. Did you mean:
1: "When you have to work twice as hard just to get the same recognition as the guys in the office."
or:
2: "When you have to work twice as hard just to keep up with the guys in the office".
?
The thing is...its a stereotype. It is one that is rarely if ever true. Transwomen get more than enough stereotypes in our lives heaped onto us. For example, the bit about being domestic. What the hell? I did not know any transwoman who ever talked about this.
Thats the funny thing is there is very few transwomen who live by a stereotype, its one of the most constant problems that we encounter is the fact that people think we do.
The point being, is the criticism is there for a purpose, and its pretty clear while you may have read Serano, it is pretty clear to me you did not understand what she was writing, because not a single word of the post would have been written, largely because its based on media stereotypes of trans people, and complete mis-interpretations. The type of "critism" you are leveling would never be found in her works, is the criticism itself is seen as part of the problem.
There are parts of the trans community that even I am critical of, but not the parts written in your post. I do not walk the party line myself, and I have upset more than my share of transwomen. But the issue of stereotyping trans people and presenting them as criticisms is a problem.
There is a difference betweenn internal community criticisms based on some of the realities of trans people, and basing criticisms on stereotypes of trans people (which is what you are doing). As much as you are defending your position as a particular point of view, it is a point of view that is obviously not based in reality.
Like I said, your post is something that has been written at trans people for several years. There is no getting around that. Its a point of view that really...comes off as insulting.
Last time I checked I have not met a single transwoman who lives on some dated stereotype of woman or tries to live a stereotype. That is an antiquated viewpoint if you think that is the case.
Even newer transitioners do not act or even think within these stereotypes or reaching toward them. Transitioning when it gets down to it is getting used to being oneself, which is difficult enough without being lectured on stereotype, which are in fact based on stereotypes.
Like I said, this is a party line on trans boards, largely because we have heard before and based on some stereotyping of trans people and transitioners.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 16, 2007, 12:35:36 AM
uh... what are you all talking about?
;)
Cindi
This is clearly the best post of this thread.
Love always,
Elizabeth
QuoteZ, I think the days of Jews trying to pass as non-Jews has long passed (thankfully) I imagine being able to pass in Hitler's Germany would have been a quite valuable skill.
Yes, however passing wasn't an option for most. The SS had birth records for everyone, so they knew if someone was half or a quarter Jewish. Unfortunately, anti-Semitism is on the rise again. It isn't necessarily a problem in the US, but there are countries where it is very dangerous to be openly Jewish.
Zythyra
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 16, 2007, 01:10:57 AMAnd that brings us full circle to the essence of womanhood. It's something different for everyone to be sure. But ain't it great?
And that's exactly right, every woman sees it as something different.
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 16, 2007, 07:58:52 AM
After years of living with this, I do not choose to see it as either trolling or talking down. I regard it as an expression of my view. If it clashes with yours, that is fine with me. But, the pov expressed is one from a member that I would expect you view as trans.
Yep, this is obviously what the essence of womanhood means to you. However, that doesn't mean it necessarily applies to anybody else. For others, it may be for them to follow a stereotype.
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 16, 2007, 07:58:52 AM
Like any group of people TS people are various.If someone is comfortable being June Cleaver, then more power to her. She or another she or he have every right.
And that would be what the essence of womanhood is to that person. It sounds like this almost completely contradicts this:
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 14, 2007, 05:10:17 PM
June Cleaver was not the Essence of Womanhood. Neither was Laura Petrie. Not then, definitely not now.
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 16, 2007, 07:58:52 AMThat post was not directed at any one, maybe even any, individual I have read here.
Um, you originally said completely the opposite of this in your OP.
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 14, 2007, 05:10:17 PM
Many TS women have no clue about the essence of womanhood. I have just about decided that there is none, at least not if you are gonna talk about it.
It may not be what you meant to say, but this certainly reads as being directed at us--particularly because the people on here that are going to be the ones reading it.
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 16, 2007, 07:58:52 AM
To live a stereotype and to find in that safety is a bit like finding safety in hiding in the grass.
By making generalizations about how a trans-woman should live their lives, you are basically defining a stereotype yourself that we all should live by. And I believe *that* is what is most offending about your post, which is your very own self-contradiction.
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 16, 2007, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 16, 2007, 12:35:36 AM
uh... what are you all talking about?
;)
Cindi
This is clearly the best post of this thread.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Why thank you Elizabeth ;) There is great meaning in so few words.
Cindi
Nichole, i agree with your sentiments, this isnt a rant or a trolling on your part. i think its fairly justified, all the anger and oposition seem to be the same group that are apposed to any different views than thier own closed minded wingeing narcisism.
R :police:
Quote from: Nichole W. on August 16, 2007, 01:32:35 PM
I had locked the topic. Melissa informed me that I should have noted that, since mods can enter anyway. My fault that the mods apparently did not know it was locked.
I have unlocked it again. So, if you want to post, please feel free. I will simply be quiet and read. Next time I lock I will post that it is locked.
Nichole
Actually Mods do know it's locked, they are warned of that fact prior to posting.
Steph
is there really an essence to anything? but then, I am no Platonist
there is manhood, and womanhood, everything contains an essence. and a being. and i feel there is such a thing for women and men. something that often goes a miss in the trans community.
R :police:
Quote from: Steph on August 16, 2007, 02:56:23 PM
Actually Mods do know it's locked, they are warned of that fact prior to posting.
Steph
Only if they start a post *after* it's locked. ;) Some of us are slow typists.
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 03:05:47 PM
something that often goes a miss in the trans community.
R :police:
Yes, that's true in the MtF trans community. In the FtM community, it goes a mister.
i dont feel that needs changeing as a phrase, 'going amiss' isnt gendered :P
that quite annoys me in the trans commuinity, like the 'oh my goddess' crap
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 05:18:55 PM
i dont feel that needs changeing as a phrase, 'going amiss' isnt gendered :P
that quite annoys me in the trans commuinity, like the 'oh my goddess' crap
R :police:
I find it funny, but that's probably because I like puns.
not doing it agaist goddessworshipers, it just seems quite a lot of ->-bleeped-<-s have masculinsed or feminised phrases that are long standing socially used ones for themselves, where a natal person of thier gender usually never cares.
same as i get shouted at for saying 'hey guys' to a chat room full of m2f women, appanently thats rude??? (when natal girls use it regardless)
R :police:
Guys = girls or guys and girls, any socialized woman knows that. Like dropping F bombs, very ladylike in my circles anyway, when used properly.
Quotesame as i get shouted at for saying 'hey guys' to a chat room full of m2f women, appanently thats rude??? (when natal girls use it regardless)
A lifetime of being sir'ed, mister'ed and dude'ed does make one a bit sensitive to being called a guy. ::)
Zythyra
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 06:04:47 PM
...it just seems quite a lot of ->-bleeped-<-s have masculinsed or feminised phrases that are long standing socially used ones for themselves, where a natal person of thier gender usually never cares.
same as i get shouted at for saying 'hey guys' to a chat room full of m2f women, appanently thats rude??? (when natal girls use it regardless)
Oh yeah, that bugs me when another TS will "correct" me by trying to get me to phrase something in a female gendered way, even though I don't want to say it that way. I don't mind others doing it, but I don't want to be forced to use special language around others just because of their own internal unresolved issues.
Quote from: Melissa on August 16, 2007, 06:14:09 PM
Quote from: Rachael on August 16, 2007, 06:04:47 PM
...it just seems quite a lot of ->-bleeped-<-s have masculinsed or feminised phrases that are long standing socially used ones for themselves, where a natal person of thier gender usually never cares.
same as i get shouted at for saying 'hey guys' to a chat room full of m2f women, appanently thats rude??? (when natal girls use it regardless)
Oh yeah, that bugs me when another TS will "correct" me by trying to get me to phrase something in a female gendered way, even though I don't want to say it that way. I don't mind others doing it, but I don't want to be forced to use special language around others just because of their own internal unresolved issues.
I know. 'You guys' is the same as 'y'all'. And girls do call each other 'dude'. In my neck of the woods, a woman objecting to being referred to as 'dude' or included in a 'you guys' would raise eyebrows. GGs take these terms for granted. They are not offended by them.
ive heard a girl say ' yeah man' to another girl.
an interesting one is luv - men use it to women, but women use it to men and women :)
->-bleeped-<-s are too uptight, and usually obsess over femininity in ways natal females just are...
R :police:
/me giggles quite loudly attracting odd stares in the it center >:D
nice.
dont ninjas suprise buttsechs pirates too in thier spare time?
R :police:
Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 06:27:58 PMThey are not offended by them.
Neither am I. I even have been called "dude" by somebody at work who said it to everyone. He changed it to "dudette" (it was shortly after I had gone fulltime) and I was like "whatever". To be honest, if people made a point of constantly feminizing these phrases with me, it would certainly raise my suspicions about them. What I DO find offensive however, is when my parents use my old name and male pronouns just to spite me.
Quote from: Melissa on August 16, 2007, 06:45:04 PM
Quote from: Nero on August 16, 2007, 06:27:58 PMThey are not offended by them.
Neither am I. I even have been called "dude" by somebody at work who said it to everyone. He changed it to "dudette" (it was shortly after I had gone fulltime) and I was like "whatever". To be honest, if people made a point of constantly feminizing these phrases with me, it would certainly raise my suspicions about them. What I DO find offensive however, is when my parents use my old name and male pronouns just to spite me.
Yeah. I can't think of a similar situation with guys, but if someone kept changing their wording instead of just calling me the way they call every other guy, I'd feel they weren't seeing me as any other male. I don't want special treatment. So I know exactly what you mean.
Transwomen who freak out about being included in a 'you guys' are demanding special treatment. That or they have absolutely no female socialization and don't know any better.
Well, this is the meaning of
dude:
Quote
dude (dd, dyd) KEY
NOUN:
Informal An Easterner or city person who vacations on a ranch in the West.
Informal A man who is very fancy or sharp in dress and demeanor.
Slang
A man; a fellow.
dudes Persons of either sex.
TRANSITIVE VERB:
dud·ed , dud·ing , dudes
When said in the plural form, I gather it is the same as calling a bunch of people "guys"; I think that the only way this noun could be offensive is if the person saying it knows your TS history or perceives you as TS. My two cents.
tink :icon_chick:
yup :)
R :police:
Quote from: y2gender on August 16, 2007, 06:13:04 PM
Quotesame as i get shouted at for saying 'hey guys' to a chat room full of m2f women, appanently thats rude??? (when natal girls use it regardless)
A lifetime of being sir'ed, mister'ed and dude'ed does make one a bit sensitive to being called a guy. ::)
Zythyra
Guy (singular) = Man.
oh well, this is another thing nichole was saying, transexuals seem obsessed with femininity in language.... :) this shows how confuseing that can be :D
still, i dont mind being refered to in singular as dude, i know some people who just do it. its just them :) mate however, is male i feel.
R :police:
QuoteGuy (singular) = Man.
Right. I take no offense when someone says "you guys" to a group of women, men or others. But calling me Mr, Sir, or that guy over there... sure won't get someone on my good side >:D
Quotedudes Persons of either sex.
TRANSITIVE VERB:
dud·ed , dud·ing , dudes
Gotta love modern language, dude is now a verb. Wasn't when I was growing up. Shakespear is probably rolling in his (or her) grave :P
Ms (or perhaps Mx) Z ;D
Quote from: y2gender on August 16, 2007, 07:24:59 PM
QuoteGuy (singular) = Man.
Right. I take no offense when someone says "you guys" to a group of women, men or others. But calling me Mr, Sir, or that guy over there... sure won't get someone on my good side >:D
Quotedudes Persons of either sex.
TRANSITIVE VERB:
dud·ed , dud·ing , dudes
Gotta love modern language, dude is now a verb. Wasn't when I was growing up. Shakespear is probably rolling in his (or her) grave :P
Ms (or perhaps Mx) Z ;D
'Get all duded up" has been around awhile.
Hey guys can we do the topic starter the courtesy of staying on topic. It's an interesting thread after all :)
Steph
I pretty much just want to lock this again. Derailing takes many forms. Not all a divergence from the subject. Some derail with a sort of self righteous indignation that poses as argument or discussion. At that point discussion ends. Discussion has a certain grace and acceptance of what is. Argument and steamrolling do not.
So I am going to lock this thread and this is the last word ... I hope ... in this thread.
I don't generally have any problem listening to another's pov. I sometimes do not agree and try to gauge how well that person might wish to hear about my disagreement. That was why I made a four paragraph intro to that OP.
I was really hoping that people would understand that I knew that not everyone, maybe not anyone, was gonna agree. I suppose I should have requested that posters try to maintain a sense of their own dignity and that of others as well. My bad, I didn't.
In my life, I don't particularly look for agreement. I simply desire, from time to time, to air my opinion and have it at least listened to.
Which is what bothers me about some of the replies. No sense, that I could see, that the writers even got that an opinion is just that, an opinion. More that they feel it, the opinion, IS an identity. Huh?!!
Some people seem more than willing to load their language to attempt to totally dismiss any opinion they do not possess. THAT I find objectionable, rude and narcissistic. I do not find that disagreement. I do find it disagreeable and misanthropic.
I would be willing to bet that people who do such things are very sensitive to their being treated with some respect. The smallest empathy with another might, thus, be in order. But, in their own sense that their opinion is their identity, they cannot do so.
If someone feels that her view need be the only one available, I understand that as a really deep insecurity. I may not be right about the reason, but that is what I chalk it up as and try to move on.
Lookit, I do staff meetings with some regularity, and classes with some regularity, where there are people who do that. They seem to wish to storm over every objection or pov that doesn't fit their own. I am uncomfortable with that. Given reactions from others, they are not comfortable with it either.
There seems no need for it, IF someone believes that they have a better way. Say that, support that, but do so with some grace, some decency.
To simply dismiss and malign another to get their point across is not only rude; but, I think, an admission that if others do not buy their ideas then maybe there is something wrong with their ideas. It speaks to me of a profound loss of self worth that needs constant bolstering with everyone else's agreement to a proposition. Hence the effective stance of: 'Shut up!'
What I object to is being told that I should take my opinion elsewhere and 'shut up.' I have been told to 'shut up' since before I was four. Every time I attempted to explain my soul to them, my parents told me to 'shut up.'
I try not to say that to others. It's hurtful and simply means to me that this or that view undermines what the person saying 'shut up' believes in and that they require total agreement with that belief in order to feel validation.
I really doubt that my experience is incredibly rare among transpeople in general. Thus, I would rather not inflict it on others, knowing how badly I have been hurt by that.