The Essence of Womanhood: Be Careful, Please. Rant

[Melissa]

...but to be honest, im ashamed that im trans, its one of the main things that haunts me. i hate the fact i have to do this. i dont want to, but im a girl, i have to. Nomatter how much transgender is accepted, it will never be on a par with being a natal woman i fear. im not transitioning to be asecond class citizen, just a girl.

So do you feel inside that having a transgendered past automatically makes a woman inferior to a GG?  It's kind of funny, but I certainly don't *feel* inferior, nor consider myself beneath any other woman just because they were handed being female from birth.  It's not the body or past that you have, but what that person does with themselves that makes them better or worse.  It's also the same reason I don't automatically respect somebody who was lucky enough to be born into wealth; it's what they do with that money that says what kind of person they are.

[Rachael]

not inside, but socially it is, lets be honest.

R

[Melissa]

not inside, but socially it is, lets be honest.

R

Only if you let it.  I'm not ashamed, nor am I proud; I just am.  There's no reason to go around telling people, but there's also no reason to constantly be living in shame or fear of being "discovered".

[Shana A]

As we know, passing referred to Jews passing as Non-Jews, and Blacks passing as White, these are people trying to pass as something they are not.

One might not necessarily be trying to pass at all, even though in certain situations they do... then one has to make a conscious effort to out themselves. As a Jew, I can be standing in a group of people in which someone says something anti-Semitic. Until the moment in which I say something, and trust me, I will, to them I've passed as white. I wasn't trying to pass, although I did. I am proudly Jewish, and would rather pass as who I am.

Ten years from now R, I can't see you living as anything but a "normal woman."

I still don't see you in a "cocktail dress" though! LOL

How about a slinky cocktail hoodie for Rachael 

Zythyra

[Buffy]

Nichole,

Great post both challenging and thought provoking, I agree with the majority of your comments in the original post.

IMHO many people transition to remain transsexuals or to end up meeting the stereotypical view of a transsexual (have to wear a skirt, appear overly feminine, lots of make up etc), where passing does become an act and a constant validation of their own mindset. It does take a different mindset to fully integrate into society as a woman, where passing validation is not an issue and life simply and totaly is just that. I also accept that everyones circumstances are different, some may not seek total integration of ever have the opportunities (both financially and socialy) to gain that mindset.

I know some very sucsessful woman, who have a transsexual past. They are part of the corporate brigade that Melissa 90299 talked about in one of her previous posts. No one knows there past, they do not dwell on what they have done, but have risen to Senior positions as women, because they have totally integrated as women and proven themselves as women. Stealth may be an emotive subject for most people, but these women have always been my role models and something I had to aspire to. When I talk to them, I hear no trace of existence of transsexual, they just appear confident, inspired and without a care about their past.

I admire transactivists, they are a brave bunch of people who believe they have to proclaim their transsexuality in order to further the cause of all transsexuals, I can find no fault with this. But personally I hope that many of us can achieve that simply by being here and relating to anyone who has gender issues, that you can overcome them, can go on to lead (what most of society would consider) a normal life. Examples of success in the TS community are fairly rare and at times I think that success is based on the fact that people are TS (and its a novelty) rather than their ability to actually achieve success in their own right as a Woman (or Man).

Many years ago, I had to take time off work (as my partner was ill) to look after my Children. I took them to school on a daily basis and for the first time realized that the glamarous, well groomed, perfectly made up, immacuately dressed woman was a myth. People I knew in a work situation or saw at social functions turned up to the school gate in jogging bottoms, sweat shirts, training shoes, without make up, hair just tied up. I saw them as wives, mothers, but still totally and without question very femimine. At times I think TS's just try to hard to always be that perception of women that society expects (and a lot of that perception is based on what men expect).

I know of many TS's who have to remove all body hair, will not go out without make up, have to try and fit to that stereotypical view of what a woman wears. In a magazine recently I saw a marvellous article about 4 women who where asked NOT to undergo all the personnal grooming or beauty treatments they did daily, weekly, monthly for a period of two months (so as to see what the effect was on thier boyfriends / husbands). Legs where left unshaved / plucked, eyebrows not shaped, underarm hair not removed, no visits to the beauty parlour. Only one guy actually mentioned to his wife, her legs where a bit hairy!

As women, no one questioned their feminimity or their beauty, just because they did not groom, pluck, shave and wax on a daily basis.

From my own personal point of view, I see being transsexual as a phase that I had to go through to achieve womanhood. I accept it is not easy and many people may not make that leap (or want to move) to the next phase or have the right mindset. I have fully integrated into society, I am accepted as a woman and I am extremely happy I have been able to do that. I never think about passing, I never constantly have to validate myself, I wear what I want, when I want, I enjoy getting made up, going out socially, to work, but equally happy slumming around in jeans and a T-shirt, going to the Mall or food shopping without make up and hair just tied up, going to the gym or sweating my butt of in softball training at 110F and 90% humidity, because you know what many of my female friends do exactly the same as that, because its just part of life.


Buffy

[cindianna_jones]

uh... what are you all talking about? 



Cindi

[ChefAnnagirl]

From Buffy - "I admire transactivists, they are a brave bunch of people who believe they have to proclaim their transsexuality in order to further the cause of all transsexuals, I can find no fault with this. But personally I hope that many of us can achieve that simply by being here and relating to anyone who has gender issues, that you can overcome them, can go on to lead (what most of society would consider) a normal life. Examples of success in the TS community are fairly rare and at times I think that success is based on the fact that people are TS (and its a novelty) rather than their ability to actually achieve success in their own right as a Woman "(or Man).

Response:

Not to be a raving Bit-h or anything, but i found unfortunate issue with part of this statement. I felt it was far too generalized to be valid, at least for myself.
As someone that has recently become more involved in certain activist "events" - for example - the NCTE Lobby day here in DC - making Senate and Congressional appointments to help further equal rights protections in the workplace and other critically important issues.

I consider these issues, and the attendant discriminatory factors which still require people to make themselves heard, to be human rights issues, and not necessarily "transsexual issues", at all.   

Bigotry and continued discrimination, in any part of the world, in any culture, and for any reason, whether it be based on religious, social, cultural, sexuality, or gender expression - is intolerable and horrific, and based in the highest (or lowest) expressions of ignorance, fear, and hatred that still exists amongst the human family at large.

I believe that i do not have to (nor necessarily have i) "proclaim my transsexualism" as it was put, but rather, since i AM a transgendered person, and these issues DO directly impact MY life and MY future as one such a person (as well, obviously, as many others in the same or similar boat), it is for me a necessary starting point, one based on personal experience, and therefore directly valid and much more easily and powerfully expressed by me personally to others as part of trying to help expand awareness of the plight of anyone being discriminated against, anywhere in the world, for ANY reason at all.

Gotta start someplace, so i started with what hits closest to home for me personally, as it were.

I totally disagree with this assessment and of the blanket motivational generalization that was made in this statement, and i hope that it will be corrected, as the writer cannot possibly speak for me personally, nor for anyone that they have not met nor personally spoken to in this life.

Thanks,

Sincerely,


Annagirl

[cindianna_jones]

Annagirl, you've managed to hit the mark in my book.  It's an issue of equal rights for everyone.  Equal treatment.  An equal opportunity to be happy. Can it be any more simple?

And that brings us full circle to the essence of womanhood.  It's something different for everyone to be sure.  But ain't it great?

Cindi

[Buffy]

From Buffy - "I admire transactivists, they are a brave bunch of people who believe they have to proclaim their transsexuality in order to further the cause of all transsexuals, I can find no fault with this. But personally I hope that many of us can achieve that simply by being here and relating to anyone who has gender issues, that you can overcome them, can go on to lead (what most of society would consider) a normal life. Examples of success in the TS community are fairly rare and at times I think that success is based on the fact that people are TS (and its a novelty) rather than their ability to actually achieve success in their own right as a Woman "(or Man).

Response:

Not to be a raving Bit-h or anything, but i found unfortunate issue with part of this statement. I felt it was far too generalized to be valid, at least for myself.
As someone that has recently become more involved in certain activist "events" - for example - the NCTE Lobby day here in DC - making Senate and Congressional appointments to help further equal rights protections in the workplace and other critically important issues.

I consider these issues, and the attendant discriminatory factors which still require people to make themselves heard, to be human rights issues, and not necessarily "transsexual issues", at all.   

Bigotry and continued discrimination, in any part of the world, in any culture, and for any reason, whether it be based on religious, social, cultural, sexuality, or gender expression - is intolerable and horrific, and based in the highest (or lowest) expressions of ignorance, fear, and hatred that still exists amongst the human family at large.

I believe that i do not have to (nor necessarily have i) "proclaim my transsexualism" as it was put, but rather, since i AM a transgendered person, and these issues DO directly impact MY life and MY future as one such a person (as well, obviously, as many others in the same or similar boat), it is for me a necessary starting point, one based on personal experience, and therefore directly valid and much more easily and powerfully expressed by me personally to others as part of trying to help expand awareness of the plight of anyone being discriminated against, anywhere in the world, for ANY reason at all.

Gotta start someplace, so i started with what hits closest to home for me personally, as it were.

I totally disagree with this assessment and of the blanket motivational generalization that was made in this statement, and i hope that it will be corrected, as the writer cannot possibly speak for me personally, nor for anyone that they have not met nor personally spoken to in this life.

Thanks,

Sincerely,


Annagirl

Anna,

Yes I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else who actively persues the rights of TS people anywhere in the world. I totally agree that high level lobbying in getting the political and legal position changed is a tremendously important part of activism. Human rights is a very important part of the acceptance of all of us. Yes it was a generalization and not aimed at anyone in particular

The two points I was trying to make (obviously badly) was that you dont have to don a pink T-shirt, proclaim you are TS and march behind a banner in order to show the world you are an activist (but nothing wrong with that if anyone wishes to). Secondly even though I have sucessfully transitioned, view myself as a woman (and not a transgendered Woman), I choose to stick around, as I feel I have experience to offer to anyone here on the forums or in the chat room. I have not forsaken the community that gave me help in my times of need and hopefully will continue not to do so.

Buffy

[seldom]

Buffy no offense, most trans-activist are not what I would call the out and proud types (though they are significantly more likely to be a bit more out).  Its a little more complex than that, and stereotyping the activist community in that way...is well...a little off base.  Anna is a bit right when it really gets down to it, it really is a human rights issue.

To quote Martin Luther King Jr. "An Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere".  When it gets down to it, that is what it is really about, with regards to any civil and human rights issue. 

Basically, I find kind of the stereotype that you are putting forth as far as transactivism, well...a bit insulting.  I rather avoid that public display, but honestly that does not stop me from assisting transgroups with my policy knowledge and research abilities.  Along with years of experience in social justice advocacy and activism. 

Generally speaking I am an activist, as part of my profession.  I work on everything from consumer issues, to health care, to labor issues, and environmental issues.  I spend such a small fraction of my time on trans issues, but the truth is, they are important to me, because it was my own fear of discrimination that kept me from transitioning, but also lead to me to a career where social justice became much of my life.  I don't do trans activism just because I am trans, I do it because I care about social justice in general.  I did LGBT advocacy since college, and when I could not transition.  The truth is being an activist is a much bigger part of my life than being TS.  TS is just a condition I am cursed with, being an activist and working to make the world a better place for everybody, is who I am.  I am an idealist...it makes me a trans-activist, but it also makes me a consumer advocate, a feminist, an environmentalist, a civil rights advocate, and about a dozen other things. 

I have a ton of insecurities...well the truth is, this is the heart of who I am.  But I define myself in many ways, female is just one, trans is just another.  I am an activist, a musician, a critic, a poet, a philosopher, etc.  The entirety of a person when defined in such a limited fashion as ones gender, and ones condition, is ultimately shallow.  A person is so much more than ones gender identity.  I identify as female, and I was born with male features.  But honestly, that is not the entirety of my being, and never will be.  No human should be defined in some limited fashion.

I don't know why, but in some ways I found the original post a bit...insulting.  Its the type of thing that is written at a transperson, be it man or woman, that is completely disconnected from what its like and why things are sometimes said.  It seems like something typically written by the spouse of a trans person, who thinks they know something, but are often missing out on quite a bit of context or real understanding.  We have heard this all before, and honestly it comes off as speaking down to us, and generally speaking, insulting.  The only reason I say this is because I have seen it dozens of times before.  It is almost always used to degrade or insult trans people in some way.  I would not go to far to call it borderline trolling. 

Next time you want to post something on a transboard like this, read Julia Serano's Whipping Girl.  Because honestly, some of us can read subtexts of posts, myself included.  There are quite a few generalizations in this post without really quite understanding the cultural context or the history (both personal and community) of trans people.  It is quite a bit of the same crap that has been thrown at us for years, and to be honest, we are sick of hearing it. 

The truth is transwomen get so much of this crap, it begins to grind on us.  So we have every right to call it for what it is: insulting. 

Passing is a safety issue first and foremost with most transwomen.  We are too often the victims of horrible hate crimes.  That is why many a transperson, especially transwomen stress about it. 
I did not know being a female or being a male was based on percentages. 
Even though we are transsexual, some people use it as an excuse to lecture to us what it means to be a male or female (on both ends) as if they think they are offering good advice.  But the truth is, it often comes off as degrading or insulting...and I definitely see that to be the case here.  We are still adults, even though we may have new stuff we have to learn.  Please treat us as such.
And in the future...keep posts like this that lecture us off transboards.  We have heard it all before. 
The essence of womanhood...I am sorry, but is not there just the essence of being at peace and being human enough.  And living life as one sees fit, without being lectured for who we are and what we have to do to obtain peace.   

Everybody is different.  Leave them be, and please don't post these things on transsexual boards. 

[NicholeW.]

... I don't know why, but in some ways I found the original post a bit...insulting.  Its the type of thing that is written at a transperson, be it man or woman, that is completely disconnected from what its like and why things are sometimes said.  It seems like something typically written by the spouse of a trans person, who thinks they know something, but are often missing out on quite a bit of context or real understanding.  We have heard this all before, and honestly it comes off as speaking down to us, and generally speaking, insulting.  The only reason I say this is because I have seen it dozens of times before.  It is almost always used to degrade or insult trans people in some way.  I would not go to far to call it borderline trolling. 

Next time you want to post something on a transboard like this, read Julia Serano's Whipping Girl.  Because honestly, some of us can read subtexts of posts, myself included.  There are quite a few generalizations in this post without really quite understanding the cultural context or the history (both personal and community) of trans people.  It is quite a bit of the same crap that has been thrown at us for years, and to be honest, we are sick of hearing it. 

The truth is transwomen get so much of this crap, it begins to grind on us.  So we have every right to call it for what it is: insulting. 

Passing is a safety issue first and foremost with most transwomen.  ... But the truth is, it often comes off as degrading or insulting...and I definitely see that to be the case here.  We are still adults, even though we may have new stuff we have to learn.  Please treat us as such.
And in the future...keep posts like this that lecture us off transboards.  We have heard it all before. 
The essence of womanhood...I am sorry, but is not there just the essence of being at peace and being human enough.  And living life as one sees fit, without being lectured for who we are and what we have to do to obtain peace.  

Everybody is different.  Leave them be, and please don't post these things on transsexual boards. 

Your essay could be seen as being quite true by many of the readers here. Perhaps they regard any criticism as being a net negative.

After years of living with this, I do not choose to see it as either trolling or talking down. I regard it as an expression of my view. If it clashes with yours, that is fine with me. But, the pov expressed is one from a member that I would expect you view as trans.

To live a stereotype and to find in that safety is a bit like finding safety in hiding in the grass. That is fine for a grasshopper, less fine for a water buffalo. The water buffalo is likely to be found. The grasshopper not so much.

My essay was not a trolling expedition. It was and is a pov.

Women are women. There are all different types, Amy. My type is not of the Reagan sort that demands never criticizing what seems harmful to me, even if it comes from one of my own. After all, none of us, I am sure, wish to see even one more girl murdered or beaten. I am sure none of us wants to see another woman raped.

Exactly where does one find a view that walks awry of the party line and expresses that if not on a trans board? Perhaps I should have placed this on a Neo-con board, so it would have resonated with all of the audience? But, would many of them see the difficulties that younger and newer transitioners do or will face? Thus, I believe a trans board is absolutely the right place for a different pov.

I appreciate the right of people to be and act in ways that accord with who they find themselves to be. But, where rubber meets the road to match oneself to a stereotype is an impossibility. The struggles of some to find their place within their gender can be awesomely difficult. I accept that.

Perhaps, it is not out-of-line to point out a few pitfalls.

As for not posting TS-related thoughts and opinions on trans boards: must we now all read from the same version of the Bible? Who will write the Bible? Who will be willing to decide that she or he has the pathway that fits all?

Like any group of people TS people are various.If someone is comfortable being June Cleaver, then more power to her. She or another she or he have every right.

If I were to be a trans-activist I think I would have to do my best to represent all of the spectrum of people and not insist that only certain povs are acceptable. That seems like a much better exercise than does a constant winnowing of what we can and cannot say.

My original post did not insist that anyone agree with me at all. Nor do I insist that you agree. My rant was just that. I went through pretty much every one of the false, imo, poses I presented when I began. I found that to lead my life I needed to get away from the stereotypes. Not at first, but if I wished to lead a womanly life. I do not think I deserve a lecture anymore than you think others do.

There was plenty of warning to begin with. The pov is mine. I was a transsexual at a period of time in my life. I am no longer. If your comfort is elsewhere, that is fine with me.

But to have my pov dismissed as trolling and harmful? I rather think not.

Imo, the ability of trans-people to live abundant lives, and to find each her or his own place within the culture we abide in, is a right afforded to each of us. To only have people posting on this or any other board if they only have a particular pov seems to me to be inimical to the quest for being seen by others as being simply a part of the natural experience of humanity in all of its diverse ranges.

That post was not directed at any one, maybe even any, individual I have read here. It was directed at what I see as a very harmful and dangerous way of viewing transition. A way to make sure that the boldest question a Larry King can ask of a trans-woman is whether or not she sits to pee. Thus far, that is the very real fact of activism over the past twenty years. Larry now perceives us all as being unable to sit and pee.

That progress seems to me to be minimal. Perhaps he does allow one of us to come on his show, but when he begins to see us as women and talks to us as such, then progress will have reached a stage where one can, imo, say it has been meaningful progress. I doubt that will come by all of us adhering to a one right way concept of talking among ourselves. If we plan to use the divesity of life as a means of effecting changes in perception from among the nons, I believe that we should present the nons with people of whom they can realize: Hey, that guy is really a guy. That woman is really a woman.

That will not happen when we insist that for the good of the Movement that no criticism should be broached among ourselves. The portion of your post I highlighted i find terribly much out-of-step with the view you were seeming to present.

Best wishes in all of your endeavors,

Nichole

Edited to add: btw, I have read all of Julia Serano I can get my hands on. Including interviews. I have never noticed, however, that she will not say things that might be less than critical of women who were/are trans. 

[melissa90299]

As we know, passing referred to Jews passing as Non-Jews, and Blacks passing as White, these are people trying to pass as something they are not.

One might not necessarily be trying to pass at all, even though in certain situations they do... then one has to make a conscious effort to out themselves. As a Jew, I can be standing in a group of people in which someone says something anti-Semitic. Until the moment in which I say something, and trust me, I will, to them I've passed as white. I wasn't trying to pass, although I did. I am proudly Jewish, and would rather pass as who I am.

Ten years from now R, I can't see you living as anything but a "normal woman."

I still don't see you in a "cocktail dress" though! LOL

How about a slinky cocktail hoodie for Rachael 

Zythyra

Z, I think the days of Jews trying to pass as non-Jews has long passed (thankfully) I imagine being able to pass in Hitler's Germany would have been a quite valuable skill.

[shiva]

When you have to work twice as hard just to keep up with the guys in the office for recognition.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Talent is talent, aptitude is aptitude; if a woman is good at something, she's good. If she's bad, she's bad. Same with men. It has nothing to do with gender. 

"Having to work twice as hard to keep up with the guys" is NOT the "essence of womanhood." 

The real women I know, from all different starting points in life, are as capable and intelligent as their male counterparts. They do not use their gender as an excuse or a reason why they aren't as good as so-and-so. I would despise them if they did.

Now, because of the way you worded it, it's possible that the actual meaning is that women get less recognition for the same (or better) work. The problem is the use of the words "keep" and "up" in that sentence. Did you mean:

1: "When you have to work twice as hard just to get the same recognition as the guys in the office."

or:

2: "When you have to work twice as hard just to keep up with the guys in the office".

?

[seldom]

The thing is...its a stereotype.  It is one that is rarely if ever true.  Transwomen get more than enough stereotypes in our lives heaped onto us.  For example, the bit about being domestic.  What the hell?  I did not know any transwoman who ever talked about this. 

Thats the funny thing is there is very few transwomen who live by a stereotype, its one of the most constant problems that we encounter is the fact that people think we do. 

The point being, is the criticism is there for a purpose, and its pretty clear while you may have read Serano, it is pretty clear to me you did not understand what she was writing, because not a single word of the post would have been written, largely because its based on media stereotypes of trans people, and complete mis-interpretations.  The type of "critism" you are leveling would never be found in her works, is the criticism itself is seen as part of the problem.

There are parts of the trans community that even I am critical of, but not the parts written in your post.  I do not walk the party line myself, and I have upset more than my share of transwomen.  But the issue of stereotyping trans people and presenting them as criticisms is a problem. 

There is a difference betweenn internal community criticisms based on some of the realities of trans people, and basing criticisms on stereotypes of trans people (which is what you are doing).  As much as you are defending your position as a particular point of view, it is a point of view that is obviously not based in reality.

Like I said, your post is something that has been written at trans people for several years.  There is no getting around that.  Its a point of view that really...comes off as insulting.

Last time I checked I have not met a single transwoman who lives on some dated stereotype of woman or tries to live a stereotype.  That is an antiquated viewpoint if you think that is the case. 

Even newer transitioners do not act or even think within these stereotypes or reaching toward them.  Transitioning when it gets down to it is getting used to being oneself, which is difficult enough without being lectured on stereotype, which are in fact based on stereotypes. 

Like I said, this is a party line on trans boards, largely because we have heard before and based on some stereotyping of trans people and transitioners.     

[Elizabeth]

uh... what are you all talking about? 



Cindi

This is clearly the best post of this thread.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Shana A]

Z, I think the days of Jews trying to pass as non-Jews has long passed (thankfully) I imagine being able to pass in Hitler's Germany would have been a quite valuable skill.

Yes, however passing wasn't an option for most. The SS had birth records for everyone, so they knew if someone was half or a quarter Jewish. Unfortunately, anti-Semitism is on the rise again. It isn't necessarily a problem in the US, but there are countries where it is very dangerous to be openly Jewish.

Zythyra

[Melissa]

And that brings us full circle to the essence of womanhood.  It's something different for everyone to be sure.  But ain't it great?

And that's exactly right, every woman sees it as something different.

After years of living with this, I do not choose to see it as either trolling or talking down. I regard it as an expression of my view. If it clashes with yours, that is fine with me. But, the pov expressed is one from a member that I would expect you view as trans.

Yep, this is obviously what the essence of womanhood means to you.  However, that doesn't mean it necessarily applies to anybody else.  For others, it may be for them to follow a stereotype.

Like any group of people TS people are various.If someone is comfortable being June Cleaver, then more power to her. She or another she or he have every right.

And that would be what the essence of womanhood is to that person.  It sounds like this almost completely contradicts this:

June Cleaver was not the Essence of Womanhood. Neither was Laura Petrie. Not then, definitely not now.

That post was not directed at any one, maybe even any, individual I have read here.

Um, you originally said completely the opposite of this in your OP.

Many TS women have no clue about the essence of womanhood. I have just about decided that there is none, at least not if you are gonna talk about it.

It may not be what you meant to say, but this certainly reads as being directed at us--particularly because the people on here that are going to be the ones reading it.

To live a stereotype and to find in that safety is a bit like finding safety in hiding in the grass.

By making generalizations about how a trans-woman should live their lives, you are basically defining a stereotype yourself that we all should live by.  And I believe *that* is what is most offending about your post, which is your very own self-contradiction.

[cindianna_jones]

uh... what are you all talking about? 



Cindi

This is clearly the best post of this thread.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Why thank you Elizabeth   There is great meaning in so few words.

Cindi

[Rachael]

Nichole, i agree with your sentiments, this isnt a rant or a trolling on your part. i think its fairly justified, all the anger and oposition seem to be the same group that are apposed to any different views than thier own closed minded wingeing narcisism.

R

[Steph]

I had locked the topic. Melissa informed me that I should have noted that, since mods can enter anyway. My fault that the mods apparently did not know it was locked. 

I have unlocked it again. So, if you want to post, please feel free. I will simply be quiet and read. Next time I lock I will post that it is locked.

Nichole

Actually Mods do know it's locked, they are warned of that fact prior to posting.

Steph