just a question out of curiosity . I'll never attain stealth, just wonder what the percentage is of those who need stealth and those who don't.
ive been thinking about this a lot lately and I think the number of mtf who can actually achieve the level of passability needed to be truly and completely stealth is very low.. at least for those who started after puberty and haven't spent thousands on ffs and other surgeries. Its my belief that a lot of people think there stealth when the reality is people just aren't bringing it up cause there being polite...let me make one thing very clear though and that is theres a big difference to passing in the streets or in quick day to day interactions with strangers and passing in all situations one hundred percent... I definitely believe its possible to be stealth and some mtf definitely have achieved it... but if you started hormones older than your teens and you've had no surgeries I just don't think its possible for most...
Quote from: Annabolton on December 03, 2014, 12:28:34 PM
ive been thinking about this a lot lately and I think the number of mtf who can actually achieve the level of passability needed to be truly and completely stealth is very low.. at least for those who started after puberty and haven't spent thousands on ffs and other surgeries. Its my belief that a lot of people think there stealth when the reality is people just aren't bringing it up cause there being polite...let me make one thing very clear though and that is theres a big difference to passing in the streets or in quick day to day interactions with strangers and passing in all situations one hundred percent... I definitely believe its possible to be stealth and some mtf definitely have achieved it... but if you started hormones older than your teens and you've had no surgeries I just don't think its possible for most...
Anna, I totally agree with you, stealth status is highly sought after, but as a whole not too many trans women are able to achieve it. I chose 10-20%, as what is most probable, but, maybe I'm just being jealous, because I can't be stealth, but the reality for me is that I started at age 35, and was extremely fit prior to starting HRT, and still have some residual muscle from those days, and I don't have hips, and not much of a butt (I have to wear hip and butt pads), I'm also 6'0 tall, and although I would not be considered fat, I need to lose some weight, and I have long arms.
I do the best I can to blend in well with cis gendered women; I have developed a female voice, I've had FFS and BA surgery (and will be having liposuction with fat grafting to my hips, and butt implants early next year), I have a feminine walk and mannerisms, but I realize that no matter what I do, I will never achieve stealth status.
Yes ma'am I agree with Anna too. For some it seems like the holy grail and ultimate achievement and honestly I wish all of us the most meaningful success.
That is a really good question.
I think given enough effort and time lots more MTFs reach stealth, or stealth-like, status than we think. We can meet stealth trans people and never know the difference.
Another thing is defining stealth. How do you draw that line? Passing without effort? Intentionally hiding?
I don't tell anyone I'm trans, no one asks or suspects. I would have to tell them myself. Is that stealth?
If it is then let me warn that stealth comes with its own slew of issues. Stealth does not = mental health or the resolution of trans-issues!
I guess the thing about the concept and desire for stealth is that it exists primarily as a result of a number of factors; shame about being trans due to social attitudes and taboos, fear of discrimination or rejection or violence, a desire to completely separate oneself from one's previous gender especially is trauma was part of that picture, and so on. Maybe as those situations and issues change and people are accepting then the need for stealth will diminish?
I'm not sure there's any good way to answer this question, as a stealth person may not risk posting to a site like this!
I'll never be "truly" stealth because I transitioned in place, but it sounds like there's also two different questions bundled into one there : will you be outed by your documents/friends/history, and will you be outed by your appearance. I'm definitely vulnerable to the former, but as for the latter, I've had people *argue* with me (and other people) when told I'm trans. It's weird for me, because it means that even without making an effort to hide anything, and without necessarily *wanting* to be, I'm effectively stealth until something outs me or I tell someone. And I'm too shy to tell most people my life story. :) So more and more, I just blend in.
Quote from: Ms Grace on December 03, 2014, 03:07:14 PM
I guess the thing about the concept and desire for stealth is that it exists primarily as a result of a number of factors; shame about being trans due to social attitudes and taboos, fear of discrimination or rejection or violence, a desire to completely separate oneself from one's previous gender especially is trauma was part of that picture, and so on. Maybe as those situations and issues change and people are accepting then the need for stealth will diminish?
The are certainly degrees of stealth. I transitioned in place in Los Angeles. I still go everywhere I went before and interact with a lot of the same people. It's not exactly a secret that I used to be a Greg. I knew hundreds of people before, and they all know. I assume everyone that I ever knew at one time or another knows by now. True stealth is not an option for me, nor a necessity. The parts of LA that I frequent are not usually trans-unfriendly, and I feell pretty good about where I am.
That being said, I don't get read very often anymore. Most people out there have no freakin' clue that I'm not cis. My wife is also an amazon, so it's even better for me. I think people just assume we're sisters. This is the degree of stealth that I can enjoy. As far as strangers go, I am normally presumed cis, and that's fine with me. I don't exactly wear a neon sign that says "I'm a transsexual!"
Some places are a lot less progressive than Los Angeles, and if I lived in one of them, I might have considered a different approach. The small towns in Ohio that my parents are from are places I probably shouldn't go now. People know, people gossip, and out comes the angry mob with torches and pitchforks. Most of them would probably even be my own distant and not-so-distant relatives. I'm sure that even smalltown USA would be a walk in the park compared to a lot of countries in the world, where if you were found out, you'd be dead in a ditch in a heartbeat. This is where true stealth becomes a matter of survival.
Since i'm sure that i'm trans i started to look for masculine features or behaviour in women and were surprised how often i actually encountered it. And 95% time i didn't doubt that the person is a ciswomen, and that not out of politeness.
So i think that a good amount (50-60% - which is already my pessimistic view on that question) of us MtF can actually achieve stealth (getting identified as ciswomen by strangers) depending on amount of irreversible virilization that has happened before HRT (which can but doesn't have to correlate to the person's age). But reaching the state of being an absolutely georgeous or extremly cute looking or sounding women might be impossible for most. But i wouldn't consider that the requirement for "stealth".
Also i think there are actually a lot of stealth transwomen who don't consider themselves as stealth, because they're overly aware of remaining male features and thus still see a male in the mirror even if others don't.
However that is pretty normal for every kind of women. We are all overly aware of our self-declared flaws and are most of the time not satified with us. There are very few women who can really accept everything about themselves and don't start questioning everything again if some minority of people starts to make negative comments.
I agree with Jill and if you include the spectrum I think the percentage of stealth is quite high.
Deep stealth as in completely woodworked is probably like 5-10%. Stealth to most people is probably around 25-30%. Stealth to strangers is probably like 60-70%. I used to think that late transitioners were stuck looking like men for life but after seeing a lot of you I don't think that is the case. You can get good results even if you start late, just need to work at it.
thanks for the great answers, great perspective
My definition of stealth is as you say "deep stealth and woodworked", meaning that you are 100% identical to a cis woman. And no one would look at you and think "hmm, there's something about her" and they focus in on you (not when you can see them, they would consider that rude), and start looking for what it is that's different, and bit by bit they put the puzzle together. They probably will make their final decision in less than a minute ( so the longer you interact with them, means the more time they have to put it together) and anything masculine about you; looks, voice, deportment, etc. will lead them to the conclusion that you are trans.
I'm technically somewhat "deep stealth" to the unsuspecting public even though I'm out at work to over 1,000 people, who ever they've told and those who know me online and that's just a rain drop in size compared to the overall population that I am a part of where I live. I don't match the typical female proportions as far as height and body size go as I'm a 5'11" tall amazon woman. I live in the DEEEEEEEP South and when I'm out in public all by myself nobody gives me any crap, I don't get misgendered from my looks or my voice, people do stare but I think that's just due to me being tall in the land of 5'2-5'6 women and the ones that I've come out to after knowing them for a while and feeling comfortable to tell them never suspected that I could be transgender even though personally I don't feel that way because I told myself that this was NEVER possible for years and years. Even a lot of my new cis friends have a very hard time ever seeing me as having lived as a male for 30 years as to them I'm a woman in every way possible through and through even though they do know that I am transgender. I think the number of transgender women who are fully 100% stealth is very very low, I'd have to say around 5-10% if that.
How can one be "technically deep stealth" while at the same time, "out" to 1000+ people at work? My head is about to expode! ??? :o :o ???
Quote from: Susan522 on December 03, 2014, 09:29:27 PM
How can one be "technically deep stealth" while at the same time, "out" to 1000+ people at work? My head is about to expode! ??? :o :o ???
You'll notice I said to the unsuspecting public, hence the technically part. One can be completely out at work where lots of people know that you are transgender but that doesn't mean every person in the entire world knows that you are transgender so if I cross paths with some random stranger who doesn't know of my past then guess what I'm stealth because I'm not going to out myself for no reason. Those who are able to venture out in public all alone in a place that has zero protections for a transgender person whether it be day or night and not have issues then I'd say they qualify as being stealth to some varying degree. I have achieved that level of stealth as I don't walk around yelling that I'm transgender so as far as I know people are only seeing me as a tall woman because I don't get discriminated against, treated differently from other women, I can freely go to any women's public bathroom with zero fear what so ever, I recently went to a bath house that requires swimsuits and had no issues and I'm very much pre-op and can pull off wearing a swimsuit in public.... I can keep listing things off that most transgender women don't get the luxury of experiencing because something about them get's them clocked where as that just doesn't happen to me anymore when it use to when I was very early in my transition from late 2013 till April/May 2014. If I really wanted to I could find a new job in some other state and live in full stealth but I don't want to risk leaving my good paying job for something totally unknown when things are going just fine for me as is where I'm at.
Quote from: Jill F on December 03, 2014, 03:25:17 PM
I assume everyone that I ever knew at one time or another knows by now. True stealth is not an option for me, nor a necessity...
That being said, I don't get read very often anymore. Most people out there have no freakin' clue that I'm not cis.
Ditto
Quote from: missymay on December 03, 2014, 08:50:17 PM
My definition of stealth is as you say "deep stealth and woodworked", meaning that you are 100% identical to a cis woman. And no one would look at you and think "hmm, there's something about her" and they focus in on you (not when you can see them, they would consider that rude), and start looking for what it is that's different, and bit by bit they put the puzzle together. They probably will make their final decision in less than a minute ( so the longer you interact with them, means the more time they have to put it together) and anything masculine about you; looks, voice, deportment, etc. will lead them to the conclusion that you are trans.
Yep so the voice and facial hair is a top priority for me. Even if I look a little masculine, if I say, "excuse me?" in a feminine voice people will immediately retract and gender me F.
The 'stealth' question- hmmm.. Seems there is no real definition but after reading some of the posts it would appear to be varying degrees of stealth? To me, stealth mode is just what it says - No noise, no visibility, no sense of what was before.
100% Stealth = Post-op and your husband or significant other does not know. Your children do not know. Your OBGYN or Family Dr. do not know (other than surgeon and he passed also). No one knows except your parents (and they have passed on). Great majority of time, even you forget what once was. You might even be a famous lingerie model.
99% Stealth = Post-op but your surgeon is still alive. No one else knows. Parents passed.
98% Stealth = Post-op but your surgeon is still alive and your OBGYN knows. Parents know.
90% Stealth = Pre-op and husband or significant other knows. This particular percentage category could be given greater percentile dependent on the situation. No one else knows or has a clue. Great majority of time, even you forget you are pre-op.
Funny way of rating it by percentage - no? I may take time and work on this little scale and give it more detail.
To me, stealth means having someone who doesn't know you think that you're female in any given casual interaction; for example, the grocery store clerk or bank teller who calls you ma'am because you pass as a female and not just because he's being polite. For us older girls, there's too much of a paper trail, too much history, and too much testosterone-damage for us to truly chase the illusion of stealth. I'll be happy when I look, to most people, like a girl, and I'll be happy when I'm treated as one at home, in the workplace, and in public. Sure, I'll still be obviously trans, and most people will know that I used to be physically-male and there'll be a certain level of "wink wink yeah I know you used to be a guy but I'll play along because I'm not an ->-bleeped-<-", but hopefully I'll not be so obviously trans that it'll cause people to regularly misgender me accidentally.
Chasing the goal of being stealth also seems too time-consuming and expensive for me. I personally don't have the time or the money to spend the next five years of my life having surgery after surgery after surgery, and emptying my life savings into the pockets of surgeons of all description. I think that one can achieve 90% of the results with 10% of the money (therapy, HRT, a decent wardrobe and maybe SRS), and to get to that 100% stealth result takes the remaining 90% of the money (high-end FFS, voice surgery, hair transplants, extensive wardrobe, uprooting oneself to another part of the country and cutting all ties with the past etc.) Not a good investment for me, but I'm fully supportive and understanding of those whose priorities are different.
Besides, I think trans girls are some of the most beautiful people on the planet. I'm so proud to be one.
Quote from: Annabolton on December 03, 2014, 12:28:34 PM
ive been thinking about this a lot lately and I think the number of mtf who can actually achieve the level of passability needed to be truly and completely stealth is very low.. at least for those who started after puberty and haven't spent thousands on ffs and other surgeries. Its my belief that a lot of people think there stealth when the reality is people just aren't bringing it up cause there being polite...let me make one thing very clear though and that is theres a big difference to passing in the streets or in quick day to day interactions with strangers and passing in all situations one hundred percent... I definitely believe its possible to be stealth and some mtf definitely have achieved it... but if you started hormones older than your teens and you've had no surgeries I just don't think its possible for most...
Have to disagree by real life example.
A MTF friend of mine transitioned when she was 16, hormones at 18 surgery at 20. She thinks she passes, and she does to some extend. Until I heard that she does get clocked from time to time, but doesn't know it herself. Should we tell her? or leave her ignorant? Another MTF friend transitioned at the age of 47. No one ever clocked her to my knowledge. I can sit face to face with her, and it never occurs to me that she's even trans. So what is the difference? ...YMMV. Have a few more examples, but these aren't practical to describe. I think 100% passable all of the time, is impossible. No matter the age factor. One day, someone will know or find out. Whether voluntary by saying it yourself, or involuntary. In fact, hundreds of people already know: doctors, police, courts, lawyers, government personnel etc... etc... never mind the rumor mill :)
I think everyone can pass, unless there are so many factors that disturbs it. I guess 70-80% will pass most of the time. Maybe a good 50% go stealth successfully.
I think the variety in the female genetic pool allows passing even if extra work is required, as others have said, what is ' passing '
Quote from: Annabolton on December 03, 2014, 12:28:34 PM
ive been thinking about this a lot lately and I think the number of mtf who can actually achieve the level of passability needed to be truly and completely stealth is very low.. at least for those who started after puberty and haven't spent thousands on ffs and other surgeries. Its my belief that a lot of people think there stealth when the reality is people just aren't bringing it up cause there being polite...let me make one thing very clear though and that is theres a big difference to passing in the streets or in quick day to day interactions with strangers and passing in all situations one hundred percent... I definitely believe its possible to be stealth and some mtf definitely have achieved it... but if you started hormones older than your teens and you've had no surgeries I just don't think its possible for most...
This is my opinion too. I think there's "out & about" passing & direct "face to face" passing & just overall, passing in any & every situation. I feel like if someone sees me, then they usually just think I'm a normal girl. I think I do "out & about" pass. Face to face is only sometimes. I'm 90% sure the only thing that gives it away is my voice. Also, maybe my body language. I was a flaming homosexual before transition & I do have some pretty gay tendencies like many tgirls do. I'm trying to get rid of them lol
You know...Until I first "came out" 'on line', I had never even heard of the term "stealth" applied to anything other than a military plane that was "invisible" to radar. So is that what we are talking about here? Being "invisible" and/or "flying under the radar"?
Just like the term "passing", it implies a sort of hiding, deception or subterfuge, as in "passing" counterfeit money. Just what is being 'hidden' under all that makeup and pretty skirts? A long forgotten medical procedure/history or a "little extra" between the legs? And....how does it matter? If it does, how so?
Stealth? Passing? Is that what it is all about? I certainly do not see it that way, but that is fine for me. For you? How about what ever works for you :)
Quote from: Susan522 on December 04, 2014, 02:58:37 PM
You know...Until I first "came out" 'on line', I had never even heard of the term "stealth" applied to anything other than a military plane that was "invisible" to radar. So is that what we are talking about here? Being "invisible" and/or "flying under the radar"?
Just like the term "passing", it implies a sort of hiding, deception or subterfuge, as in "passing" counterfeit money. Just what is being 'hidden' under all that makeup and pretty skirts? A long forgotten medical procedure/history or a "little extra" between the legs? And....how does it matter? If it does, how so?
Stealth? Passing? Is that what it is all about? I certainly do not see it that way, but that is fine for me. For you? How about what ever works for you :)
I agree with you.
I been at this a very long time and always hear passing and stealth.
How about just plan old living?
Way to much energy and money is spent on these.
You are you. Male or Female and with time on Hrt beauty tips and dressing ones age its easy to go about your day as yourself.
I did it at age 43 full time with 5 years hormones and practice. Never looked back.
So believe in yourself.
Hugs
"Complete stealth" is very rare and, in my opinion, not worth the cost (socially) or the effort. There is also a time factor - you may be completely stealth (except to your prescribing doctor) but almost certainly that will not last indefinitely - it will come out sooner or later and if it is "a spectacular discovery" word will spread fast! (I know!)
If you are a woman, think of yourself as a woman, and live as a woman, even people who 'know' will forget in time. I have had to remind my doctor why I don't need a PAP smear LOL!
If you mean 100%, where nobody ever has even a moment of doubt about you, then yes, super low number of people on that list. Many cis women would not be on that list, tbh.
If you mean being able to just live your life like a normal woman, and have no, or close to no, people really suspect anything other than you being cis, then it might be higher than you think. Most people are less observant and more self-absorbed than you could imagine.
All that matters though is just that you simply find a way to live that makes you comfortable, and everybody can do that!
I was thinking about this same question a couple of days ago. I was at my local mall getting my cell phone repaired at a kiosk and was people watching as I stood there waiting. During my people watching I noticed an older trans woman mall walking. I noticed that nobody else took any extra notice of her. Aa someone who's never went out in public as myself except to go to therapy due to fear it made me think. Either nobody could tell or nobody cared, and after reflecting I think it's the former. I think people are wired to make assumptions based on what's presented--if you see how a person is presenting your mind tends to automatically gender them accordingly. I don't think most people have "I wonder if this person is trans" running through their minds as they interact with people. So in spite of my personal fears I agree with everybody saying the day to day passing rate is probably much higher, maybe more so than any of us think.
Are you in women's clothes when you visit the mall
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Annabolton on December 03, 2014, 12:28:34 PM
ive been thinking about this a lot lately and I think the number of mtf who can actually achieve the level of passability needed to be truly and completely stealth is very low.. at least for those who started after puberty and haven't spent thousands on ffs and other surgeries. Its my belief that a lot of people think there stealth when the reality is people just aren't bringing it up cause there being polite...let me make one thing very clear though and that is theres a big difference to passing in the streets or in quick day to day interactions with strangers and passing in all situations one hundred percent... I definitely believe its possible to be stealth and some mtf definitely have achieved it... but if you started hormones older than your teens and you've had no surgeries I just don't think its possible for most...
Not true, depends on facial structure, Sona avedian was a 240 pound marine who transitioned at age 32, and has only had breast implants, not an opinion but she is 100% passable, se chose to put her story out to help others to realize theres always hope for passing. Several videos out there of verifiable passable women who started late, putting this crap out there does not help those of us who have hope to pass not for the sake of passing but to have as normal a life as possible. If ffs is needed depnds on a lot, but I have met some personally that pass (not me being nice either) that shocked me. As always age is NOT the only determining factor for passing and ymmv,
but there are a lot of people who will be discouraged from transition and finding happiness from reading this, and I for one don't think its cool to gate keep on misconceptions.
Yep. It's not a life sentence if you don't start at 14. It just takes work and is possible. Beard shadow and voice are the biggest giveaways. Work on those.
I think it is around 30% as I have seen women on this site that just blow my mind, but then I also have my own experience where I started HRT at 16 and will never attain stealth without major facial surgeries. At the end of the day its a lot harder to look female as males always developed crazy big features(most of the time).
This is the double edged blade of mtf and ftm. The guys will generally get into stealth easier but then have the srs issue and the girls have to get more stuff done to stealth i general. (Yea this is a safe generalization I know that the men can also need more surgeries).
The majority of the general public is quite ignorant and unaware of trans people being "real" human beings walking amongst them. The perception most people have is the freak type man-in-a-dress or an over-exaggearted hookerish "->-bleeped-<-". Stealth is achievable due to most people being ignorant and unable to detect a "trans person". Lets face it 99.9% of us are bricky to a certain extent and only those who have not undergone male puberty would be very passable. Of course if you're over 6 foot tall, walk like a man and talk like a man with a 5 o'clock shadow ...well you're pretty much a man in a dress in the eyes of most people which is fine if you're goal is not to pass.
Sorry I feel an obligation to post again. I don't want people to think looks will solve their problems.
Hear me out:
I transitioned in my late 20's and I am fortunate to look really good. Today the honest truth is the only one who ever wonders about passing is ME. People tell me I'm flawless. I once tried to tell and then convince someone I was trans and they just got confused. That's great right? Everyone's goal right? BUT the fight is still on in my head. How can that be?
Do not fool yourself into thinking that something shallow like appearance will resolve those deep problems. It helps a lot in some ways, but its not a magic pill. It is not the key to happiness, take it from someone who has been there.
Quote from: MiaOhMya! on December 05, 2014, 02:56:25 PM
Sorry I feel an obligation to post again. I don't want people to think looks will solve their problems.
Hear me out:
I transitioned in my late 20's and I am fortunate to look really good. Today the honest truth is the only one who ever wonders about passing is ME. People tell me I'm flawless. I once tried to tell and then convince someone I was trans and they just got confused. That's great right? Everyone's goal right? BUT the fight is still on in my head. How can that be?
Do not fool yourself into thinking that something shallow like appearance will resolve those deep problems. It helps a lot in some ways, but its not a magic pill. It is not the key to happiness, take it from someone who has been there.
totally agree, It's difficult to tell your brain that you never presented as the opposite gender
Only around 10% of trans people transition and have surgery, the stealth number is lower than that. Account for any number of individuals my endocrinologist states he's prescribed to and worked with that don't fit any standard.
Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on December 05, 2014, 05:55:33 PM
Only around 10% of trans people transition and have surgery, the stealth number is lower than that. Account for any number of individuals my endocrinologist states he's prescribed to and worked with that don't fit any standard.
looks like the 10-20% is ahead in the poll so could be right
Stealth is just an illusion these days. I prefer the don't ask don't tell approach. Because if you don't ask I sure won't tell. ;)
Quote from: stephaniec on December 05, 2014, 03:28:00 PM
totally agree, It's difficult to tell your brain that you never presented as the opposite gender
.
I am not so sure. Maybe if you stop trying to
tell your brain, (is this talking to yourself?)...that you never did this or that......you might just forget what it was that you never did. Huh? ??? ;D I sure did. ^-^
I think it depends on how we define "stealth". If it's nobody knowing, having no clue, you are transsexual, even your group friends and your partner, then I think that's a very very tiny small percentage of trans women. Of course, this level of stealth would involve cutting off everyone who knew from the time before you transitioned and moving way, and I think nowadays, it's virtually impossible due to social networks, everything's connected, so it's very difficult.
But I think if we define "stealth" as interacting with people who don't know about you or even people who knew and you are gendered female, the it's larger pool of people. I think eventually most people can pass, given enough time on HRT, makeup skills, voice work and getting rid of facial hair. Like about 70-80% of women will eventually reach this level if they work it. For some, FFS and other procedures are needed. This is where money counts and it can be really unfair but unfortunately, the more money, the faster you can go stealth.
Interesting question, but like many others I'm confused what you mean with stealth stephaniec? Or is it left up to voters?
I see two main interpretations, one of them being nobody knows your trans background and the other that people gender you correctly after your transitioning process (as in having no idea you're trans unless they know your background). To me the latter is waay more interesting. It gives a better idea of how well you're able to work on your gender presentation. The "nobody knows" interpretation is about (to me) secondary issues such as moving to another location, paperwork, keeping your status to yourself before the transition etc. Basically what Aurora said right before.
I was surprised by the quite negative numbers but I guess it's because many have interpreted the question according to the nobody knows alternative. I voted 50-60% myself and I thought I was being a downer. Then again I'm lucky to have a large group of accepting friends, both trans and cis so the secondary issues don't matter as much to me.
Oh and guys who do you base your votes on? I can only guess the numbers myself based on posts here and on ->-bleeped-<-'s transtimelines. Plus a few local friends.
stealth , just going about , no stares, no children asking their mothers just being invisible . the data being base on your own perception of your environment rather than scientifically acquired data , although I prefer to consider this poll in terms of some what of scientific in nature.
Quote from: stephaniec on December 07, 2014, 08:58:21 AM
stealth , just going about , no stares, no children asking their mothers just being invisible . the data being base on your own perception of your environment rather than scientifically acquired data , although I prefer to consider this poll in terms of some what of scientific in nature.
This sounds more like "passing" than stealth to me.
Quote from: MiaOhMya! on December 03, 2014, 02:02:00 PM
That is a really good question.
I don't tell anyone I'm trans, no one asks or suspects. I would have to tell them myself. Is that stealth?
If it is then let me warn that stealth comes with its own slew of issues. Stealth does not = mental health or the resolution of trans-issues!
this!
Quote from: Susan522 on December 07, 2014, 04:07:40 PM
This sounds more like "passing" than stealth to me.
I guess passing and stealth are pretty much intertwined where is the line separating begin and end
hmm I guess sticking up for pre ops and non op girls isn't allowed here? My post got deleted I don't know what i said wrong other than pointing out someone's problematic comments towards a large part of the trans community...
There's a difference between "passing" and "stealth".
Passing is purely a physical aspect. How you look, sound and behave. I believe a decent amount (at least around 50%) of transwomen can become passable, especially with those transitioning in their late teens and early 20s. Hormones and youth tend to work great together. As someone who previously thought I'd be an unpassable mess, I'm already seeing myself get looks and being misgendered in boy-mode. With just hormones and good voice training, I'd say at least 50% of MtFs will be passable if they transitioned by 25. With FFS, that number is probably close to 90%. You have to be extremely unfortunate in your body and facial structure to be unpassable after FFS, or simply not have put any effort into your voice.
Stealth is social. You need to be passable to be stealth obviously. But you also need to cut off ties with your relationships pre-transition. You need to someone manage or hide your work or school history if you did that as a male. Age IS a big factor here because your paper trail only gets longer and longer as you get older. If you transitioned by time you finished college? You probably have a decent chance at establishing yourself stealth - no one really looks back to your high school days or younger. If you transition after college, or after being in a job, it will be tougher. Your transcripts will show male, your references will show male. It becomes very difficult your past as you enter adulthood.
Quote from: evecrook on December 07, 2014, 07:19:45 PM
I guess passing and stealth are pretty much intertwined where is the line separating begin and end
You can't have stealth without passing, but you can certainly have passing without stealth. They are intertwined in this way, for sure. Stealth is defined differently by different people, but it is just going to become a less and less relevant term, because A) good luck erasing your history in this age, and B) the day is coming when there will be no reason to hide your history anymore anyway. Not soon maybe, but maybe sooner than we think. Progress has been amazing the last couple years.
Quote from: Nevara on December 07, 2014, 08:41:43 PM
There's a difference between "passing" and "stealth".
This is what I was trying to say but I didn't find the words! I was wondering if I was missing something but I believe I confused stealth with passing. Haha. I guess I just realized what's important to me.
BUT you can always get them to change your name in your transcripts & references after transition, at least in Europe. It just requires the guts to ask them. Social networks are different.
It's hard to put a percentage on it. I'd say a good two-thirds of MTF's will eventually blend in and could go stealth if they wanted to completely cut off their past. The reason it seems like fewer are successful is because we're only aware of the awkward transitioners and those who can't pass. We don't see the ones who do blend in and just fade into society.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we can pick out trans people because we know what to look for. But Grace said something a while ago that I think is exactly right. Most people walk around with the mantra "I'm cis, you're cis, we're all cis." So unless something really sticks out as unusual (severe beard shadow, low voice with male inflections, etc), most people don't even have transgender as a possibility in their minds.
Quote from: Annabolton on December 07, 2014, 08:28:52 PM
hmm I guess sticking up for pre ops and non op girls isn't allowed here? My post got deleted I don't know what i said wrong other than pointing out someone's problematic comments towards a large part of the trans community...
Your post got deleted as I cleaned up the thread from a post I was removing.
I don't know about the percentage, but I started transition in my early 20s and have not had FFS (and am pre-op for SRS). I do however, pass. I can not be completely stealth because too many people in my life know, which is a reason to move or migrate after SRS for me.
I have worked at an internship for 5 months and then someone outed me to the boss there by accident, and he was flabbergasted. I have had a few experiences like that, and they have convinced me that I obviously pass for cis, even if I don't think so when I look in the mirror. Also an oral surgeon that used to do FFS surgeries, told me I don't need it.
I do not know if this is an argument against what some said about post puberty transitioning and 'needing' FFS. Because there are a few indications that my puberty didn't fully complete (I don't have an adam's apple and my voice never really got into male ranges, a serious lack of body hair compared to cis women I know, even pre hrt, and a few other things), which obviously isn't standard in your early twenties. I do know others that transitioned around my age and some have a real bad time with passing unfortunately, but I think most that transition before 25 still have a pretty good chance of passing without needing FFS.
I think a lot just depends on facial characteristics regardless of age. I have a feeling Edward G. Robinson would have a harder time going stealth at 20 or 40.
I had to buy my passability since without surgery it was impossible for me. The facial features that HRT could not change were too much in male ranges to ever look remotely closed to a woman.
I could say that with FFS and being glad that I am not particularty tall or have a too wide ribcage, I have attained what I call "basic passability": My body does not betray me, but other factors such as voice work, dressing properly or mannerisms still aren't worked enough to grant me full passability.
After passability, Stealth would be complicated. Work experience I cannot wipe or change will always clock me if they perform a background check, so even if I decide to go stealth, it will never be deep stealth.
I have been watching this thread while I was lurking. I have always assumed I passed and really didn't give it any thought. Stephaniec has been exploring this topic for some time, and has gotten me to re-think my assumptions about stealth and passing. I really appreciate her ability to have such a hard conversation and push these things out into the light.
I believe passing is mostly about our own expectations. If we think about everything we aren't, we can all find ways in which we will never pass. Society / culture will see us in the spectrum of female or male-ness. If we have the will, I think we can all find our perfect spot in that spectrum to 'fit in'. Perhaps gaining or losing a lot of weight is required, or stopping our extroverted tendencies and stop talking in public. Maybe we need to dress like an old frumpy battle-axe, or have a lot of surgeries. The list is long of things to try. Unfortunately, after all that, we probably still don't pass 100% of the time, or worse, being that woman or man may not be the pot of gold we hoped for when we began this journey.
So setting my expectations is how I pass. My first customer is myself. If I feel and act female as I understand it, I become what I want to be in my mind. If others don't see that at first, they usually seem to come around as I consistently portray myself in my chosen niche. Over time it becomes easier, and my friends drop their guards and trust me so that I can do the same with them.
I will say that in today's world, passing and stealth are very hard compared to the 'old days' when I started (1980's). In those days it seemed everyone had an aunt who had a deep voice and that was enough to set their minds on the right perception, but today we are out and proud and on the cover of Time, and not at all trying to be stealth. Today, people see that tall deep-voiced woman differently, and it can be harder to avoid discussions about gender with even casual acquaintances.
Stealth has so many definitions, I am stealth in that I have broken the tie between my new name and my old in every way possible and only my closest friends and family knew me as both. That doesn't mean others don't know I'm trans, just that they can't easily track down my history. I'm not sure that qualifies as stealth, but in combination with my passability, it provides me with a safe and rewarding space to exist.
QuoteI do not know if this is an argument against what some said about post puberty transitioning and 'needing' FFS. Because there are a few indications that my puberty didn't fully complete (I don't have an adam's apple and my voice never really got into male ranges, a serious lack of body hair compared to cis women I know, even pre hrt, and a few other things), which obviously isn't standard in your early twenties. I do know others that transitioned around my age and some have a real bad time with passing unfortunately, but I think most that transition before 25 still have a pretty good chance of passing without needing FFS.
I started hrt in my early 30s and can safely say (I think) that I don't need FFS and that I blend fine, and this is true of several of my friends I've made here that are the same age, that transitioned at same time. However, there are things abt my my body that would have been better if I had done it in my teens, for sure. But the idea that it's impossible to pass if u don't transition in your teens is incorrect. It's just that it will be harder and less likely the longer u wait. Genetics play a big role either way.
Wow. It seems so obvious now that stealth is yet another spectrum...from a kind of "stealth option," to "absolute stealth".
This would be a fascinating research topic. We trans people are somethin' else! :laugh:
It's more of a generational thing. Almost nobody is doing stealth witness protection style anymore, so the word evolves which makes it a broader term cuz not everybody evolves with it.
Quote from: MiaOhMya! on December 09, 2014, 11:35:52 AM
Wow. It seems so obvious now that stealth is yet another spectrum...from a kind of "stealth option," to "absolute stealth".
This would be a fascinating research topic. We trans people are somethin' else! :laugh:
I'm sure it would make a good PHD thesis for a psych grad.
A lady recently came to my trans support group. She was total stealth for 15+ years, no one outside her immediate family had any idea. But she realized that it was still causing her anxiety and shame, even after all these years. There was very little chance of anyone finding out, but it was still at the top of her mind all the time. So she decided to start being more active in the community again and to just stop worrying about being figured out.
All-out stealth takes a lot of work...and it sounds really stressful. And it just isn't necessary like it used to be.
I'd rather believe it's the person rather than the appearance, or as a great man said it's not the appearance , but rather the character of the individual, to paraphrase Dr. Martin Luther King.
Quote from: katiej on December 09, 2014, 12:23:02 PM
A lady recently came to my trans support group. She was total stealth for 15+ years, no one outside her immediate family had any idea. But she realized that it was still causing her anxiety and shame, even after all these years. There was very little chance of anyone finding out, but it was still at the top of her mind all the time. So she decided to start being more active in the community again and to just stop worrying about being figured out.
All-out stealth takes a lot of work...and it sounds really stressful. And it just isn't necessary like it used to be.
This is true. And we can thank those who are out and proud such as Laverne Cox, Janet Mock and a lot of the youtubers for that. Being trans is approaching the point of just not being a big deal to people anymore. Sure, you'll have people who make asses of themselves by outing trans people and making us feel less than human, but society is turning against them. One only has to look at the facebook comments on a Laverne Cox post. The few people who say "that's a man" or "she's not a real woman" are almost instantly given the virtual beatdown. It brings a smile to my face to see them run away tail tucked between their legs.
It's a good time to be trans, for sure, and it's only getting better.
I do get though that there are some people who feel that they will never be "complete" unless they are totally stealth. That's their choice and that's fine. But to me it's not worth the stress, even if I could do it (and I probably could if I tried really really hard, moved and dropped a lot of the activities I enjoy).
Might be silly theorie but eventually with a partner, most of us (from what I have seen in other topics) want to tell it to him/her. If people know you are trans it at least makes it easier on that point. Knowing they accept you already no matter what :p.
Still I rather be a bit more stealth but I dunno.. time will tell.
this whole stealth concept is so totally different for me just because of the fact of my age. I suppose if I had transitioned when young I would of cared..
I feel like I'm in a minority of a minority of a minority of a minority.... :/ I've only had some laser sessions and otherwise just HRT. I was passable at 3-4 months, and voice caught up at about 6-7 months in. I shrunk from 5' 11" to 5' 7" or so in height and shrunk 2 or 3 shoe sizes. Doctor said it simply wasn't possible and the convo didn't go any farther than that... Hopefully I don't get any shorter! I have 42-43" hips, I wear a 36B bra, and have a great complexion and full cheeks. I'm a lil over a year into transitioning and because of all these factors, I'm stealth. It just happened really, since I got with my boyfriend. We live with a few other people and they have no clue and we're not going to tell them. Meaning I have to watch what we both say. I hung out with my boyfriend's family recently, staying with them for a few days. His niece felt I was the big sister she always wanted, his mother wants me in the family, and I got along well with everyone. But they have no clue I'm trans. Most people I meet and actually tell have a hard time believing I used to be a guy. And even my own father had trouble recognizing me recently when he saw me. I don't know if I have any specific genetic advantages or if it's sheer luck really... I'd say I'm lucky that I no longer worry about passing, but to be perfectly honest, I don't prefer being stealth and there are a lot of times I want to tell people but it would affect more than just me. :/ I'm very open about my past and who I am, but having the option to be stealth, I guess I've taken it. I suppose safety is an issue too... If people knew, I might have some trouble from time to time. As it is, I blend right in and the only problems I have are typical female issues and having guys hit on me a lot... Being stealth is just very weird and very very surreal.. Sometimes it's very psychologically stressing as well... For me it happened so quickly I'm just trying to process it as I go.. For those wanting to be stealth as soon as possible, I would seriously recommend taking time to sort yourself out and make sure you're really ready for it. There are times I feel like I went right from one closet to another... And I have some trans friends that look to me for advice in starting to transition and see me as a role model and end goal to look like, but I hate breaking it to them that I'm probably a fluke, and that their results may not be the same. :(
Ashey : The "back into a closet" feeling is one I'm familiar with, and I've rarely seen anyone else express it (or so well), so thanks. :) I feel really weird coming out to people constantly, not to mention that *I* don't want to be reminded of my past every fifteen seconds anymore, yet it seems like hiding a lot of of what makes me myself to gloss over huge portions of my past. And yet, when I *want* to be out and help the community - like when I recently joined the diversity committee at work - I have to struggle to perpetually remind people that I'm trans or else I get shunted off as an "ally" again. I literally had to add a line to my name tag of why I count as diversity! It's frustrating.
(I haven't been misgendered since 6 months on HRT, and that last time was months after it had stopped happening otherwise. I also shrank 1" to 5'7" and lost a shoe size, and I'm 42DDD-30-44. None of which I can take "credit" for; that was all HRT. OK, and laser helped, and being post-op now means I don't have any immediate "proof" that I'm trans either.)
Lol
Quote from: Jenna Marie on December 10, 2014, 08:27:01 AM
Ashey : The "back into a closet" feeling is one I'm familiar with, and I've rarely seen anyone else express it (or so well), so thanks. :) I feel really weird coming out to people constantly, not to mention that *I* don't want to be reminded of my past every fifteen seconds anymore, yet it seems like hiding a lot of of what makes me myself to gloss over huge portions of my past.
One thing that I find annoying is having to amend my past for people... Like, apparently I used to be a lesbian, considering how many relationships I had with women.. Can't talk about them to anyone without being a 'former' lesbian anyway... And of course other bits I simply can't even mention. I have a friend who is 'deep stealth' and she keeps telling me to stick with it. She doesn't seem to think it's a big deal, and that there are hardly any differences in how I spin my past, but I feel like there are. :/ My past shaped who I am now, so to tell it differently, I practically have to present as a different person... Idk, maybe I'm making it a bigger deal than it is, it's just really awkward and strange sometimes.. Most of the time I'd still rather be open about it all.
Ashey : I think your friend means well, but her experience is clearly different from yours. I feel the way you do, if it helps; I don't always want to get bogged down in discussing The Trans so I don't highlight those bits of my past that are inextricably tied to being a boy, but as you've said, it *does* feel like all that editing adds up to a pretty big misrepresentation after a while. So it's great for her that she doesn't feel that way, but that isn't really going to help you.
And that's without even having a bunch of past relationships with women... yes, that must be awkward! (Can you tell people you're bisexual? I really am, so that helps too.)
I agree that is does feel like moving from one closet to another. The whole "I'm not trans" vibe applies applies to both.
I feel that's the underlying reason why true stealth is not something I could endure. It'd be a bit like battling in a war only to return home and not mention a word of it for the rest of my life.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on December 10, 2014, 01:36:35 PM
And that's without even having a bunch of past relationships with women... yes, that must be awkward! (Can you tell people you're bisexual? I really am, so that helps too.)
Oh yes, I say I'm bi to explain my orientation but in practice I usually explain I 'used to be a lesbian' like it was a phase I went through to account for the long string of only women in my past relationships.. The stressful part about that is that I'm still trying to figure out how to be with women as a woman! So I have absolutely no clue if I'm presenting as an 'authentic lesbian' (former or otherwise).