Is it absolutely necessary for one to pass in order to transition?? Or can you transition knowing that you may never pass as long as you are absolutely or close to it happy with this?? Just curious.
It is a personal choice and only you can answer that question for yourself.
It is important to me to some degree. It may not be important to some people.
Quote from: Laurette Mohr on December 19, 2014, 10:51:36 AM
Is it absolutely necessary for one to pass in order to transition?? Or can you transition knowing that you may never pass as long as you are absolutely or close to it happy with this?? Just curious.
I know many trans women who never pass. They're some of the happiest trans women I know, thrilled just to be able to live as their true selves.
I am one of those who pass sometimes in casual situations and accepted myself as transgender and unlikely to ever look as good as I feel. Transitioning is wonderful for me and i try not to fuss about the varied responses. Most smiles are returned:-)
Balance...
If you feel 'Passing' is absolutely necessary, and you feel you don't, then don't.... yet
Bottom line, Transition is just another way of saying I am sick and tired of being TWO SEPARATE PEOPLE. How you go about, and the steps it takes to reach that goal are unique to each and every one of us. Just as all the crap that life threw at us that we have to get over before we even can is unique.
I found that once I began to accept myself for who and what I am, what others thought mattered less. And this is coming from someone obsessed with being accepted and not having rocks thrown at her (and I have)
The goal of transitioning is, to our best ability, try to look and alter our body to the sex the matches our gender. To pass is often the end goal, but there is no guarantee that it will be attainable due to different circumstances. Although I'm fortunate that I do pass well, I've accepted the fact that there are some testosterone induced features that I could never change, like bone structure, feet/hands size.
A different view. Passing is in your brain, not in other people's.
The thing is not to write yourself off based on your current perception of yourself. I know that when I started to consider transition for the second time I believed I would have absolutely zero chance of passing. Seriously. What hope did I have looking like this??
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fxmung.com%2Fimpossumbly%2Fugh.jpg&hash=5807f55520f769a4905d5812ecffeb8e38fd4c2a)
That was taken two weeks before I started HRT. And today, 18 months later I pass pretty much every time I'm out and about and interacting with strangers and so on and so forth. The HRT has made a difference for sure, but the rest of it was in presentation and confidence and belief in myself.
Which leads us too...
Quote from: Cindy on December 20, 2014, 12:18:20 AM
A different view. Passing is in your brain, not in other people's.
I would agree with this, and it's why so many people who do pass can't or won't admit that they do.
Yes for me passing is almost everything to me.
For me passing would be important to feel better about myself. At the very least, if I could keep them guessing, would be better than nothing!
Thank you all for words of encouragement and guidance. It seems to me there's no right nor wrong way to transition. We write the script as we go along. Thank you so much again. BIG HUGS
I am 56 started social transition about a year ago, not on HRT yet hopefully next year; no wig no makeup, and I don't have a guy mode. Do I pass? Sometimes about 50% maybe less, could be people are just being nice. I have some hard days, yet I still feel so much better like this. Regrets, I should of surrendered to me years ago.
Passing is not so much important to me. Just looking sexy and hopefully beautiful is my priority.
barbie~~
Quote from: Laurette Mohr on December 20, 2014, 04:34:18 PM
We write the script as we go along.
This is definitely an ad lib theatre sports style production!
For most people I'd say yes it is. Say what you will, but there is a huge amount of discrimination towards visible transgender people. This seems to be especially true for transwomen. If you pass, you are treated as any other young woman. If you don't pass, you are suddenly a freak.
Every time I bring this up, someone gets into a debate of male vs. female privilege, but let me say that being visibly transgender is about worst thing you can do to yourself in terms of career, education and social (dating) opportunities.
If you had a career for 20 years and you're established financially and socially, not passing might be doable. However for a fresh college-grad in her early 20s, passing is paramount. I wouldn't even DARE walk into an interview presenting female unless I wanted to be laughed out of an opportunity. No one wants to hire or admit a transgirl when there are 100s of equally qualified cis-guys and girls applying as well. Not passing pretty much denies you any opportunity at any client-facing careers. So I'm pretty much forced to drudge it out in male mode until I have my surgeries.
I guess this is why I have a hard time relating to the 40- and 50- year olds here who can brush off not passing. It's also why I envy the girls that were able to transition early so much. I know I won't be passable before I have FFS. And in white middle class suburbia, presenting female while I'm unpassable is just about the worst and most humiliating thing I can think of doing. So basically I need to make this massive jump from presenting male to having FFS and presenting female full time just to really kick off my transition.
Quote from: Nevara on December 21, 2014, 01:20:31 AM
I guess this is why I have a hard time relating to the 40- and 50- year olds here who can brush off not passing.
Trust me I don't brush it off, it sucks being called mam and sir during same transaction with a clerk, it can make you feel pretty ->-bleeped-<-ty about yourself. The cost of maintaining the facade of manhood for decades was just too taxing on me physically and mentally. If I come across with what seems a flippant attitude its just me trying to bolster my confidence.
Stevie
No, passing is required for stealth, not transition. The situation is: if you don't pass, people will either jump to the conclusion about your past, or directly ask you, along with all the prejudicial baggage that entails.
Quote from: Nevara on December 21, 2014, 01:20:31 AM
For most people I'd say yes it is. Say what you will, but there is a huge amount of discrimination towards visible transgender people. This seems to be especially true for transwomen. If you pass, you are treated as any other young woman. If you don't pass, you are suddenly a freak.
Every time I bring this up, someone gets into a debate of male vs. female privilege, but let me say that being visibly transgender is about worst thing you can do to yourself in terms of career, education and social (dating) opportunities.
If you had a career for 20 years and you're established financially and socially, not passing might be doable. However for a fresh college-grad in her early 20s, passing is paramount. I wouldn't even DARE walk into an interview presenting female unless I wanted to be laughed out of an opportunity. No one wants to hire or admit a transgirl when there are 100s of equally qualified cis-guys and girls applying as well. Not passing pretty much denies you any opportunity at any client-facing careers. So I'm pretty much forced to drudge it out in male mode until I have my surgeries.
I guess this is why I have a hard time relating to the 40- and 50- year olds here who can brush off not passing. It's also why I envy the girls that were able to transition early so much. I know I won't be passable before I have FFS. And in white middle class suburbia, presenting female while I'm unpassable is just about the worst and most humiliating thing I can think of doing. So basically I need to make this massive jump from presenting male to having FFS and presenting female full time just to really kick off my transition.
I think you are making some legitimate points about some of the distinctions for our individual transitions. I'm one of those oldies who is basically established and secure with no bosses to please or jobs to lose. And then folks in my situation may say we have the most to lose with a long established relationship, family and career. There is no real meter for quantifying the pain we may endure. The real problem is the discrimination you aptly acknowledge. How we change that for the people currently out and vulnerable and those to follow is an even greater challenge that we face together. Happy Solstice
Quote from: Nevara on December 21, 2014, 01:20:31 AM
If you had a career for 20 years and you're established financially and socially, not passing might be doable. However for a fresh college-grad in her early 20s, passing is paramount. I wouldn't even DARE walk into an interview presenting female unless I wanted to be laughed out of an opportunity. No one wants to hire or admit a transgirl when there are 100s of equally qualified cis-guys and girls applying as well. Not passing pretty much denies you any opportunity at any client-facing careers. So I'm pretty much forced to drudge it out in male mode until I have my surgeries.
Yes. It is true. I have had to outperform professionally.
Some people, some times, have tried to object to my wearing makeup and skirt, but they do not repeat it. They have no alternative but to accept (or ignore) my appearance and live (or work) together with me. They do not have any implementable measure to discourage me.
barbie~~
I just started my transition a few months ago and for me passing or not doesn't matter much. For now it's more about becoming my true self.
Quote from: Nevara on December 21, 2014, 01:20:31 AM
For most people I'd say yes it is. Say what you will, but there is a huge amount of discrimination towards visible transgender people. This seems to be especially true for transwomen. If you pass, you are treated as any other young woman. If you don't pass, you are suddenly a freak.
Every time I bring this up, someone gets into a debate of male vs. female privilege, but let me say that being visibly transgender is about worst thing you can do to yourself in terms of career, education and social (dating) opportunities.
If you had a career for 20 years and you're established financially and socially, not passing might be doable. However for a fresh college-grad in her early 20s, passing is paramount. I wouldn't even DARE walk into an interview presenting female unless I wanted to be laughed out of an opportunity. No one wants to hire or admit a transgirl when there are 100s of equally qualified cis-guys and girls applying as well. Not passing pretty much denies you any opportunity at any client-facing careers. So I'm pretty much forced to drudge it out in male mode until I have my surgeries.
I guess this is why I have a hard time relating to the 40- and 50- year olds here who can brush off not passing. It's also why I envy the girls that were able to transition early so much. I know I won't be passable before I have FFS. And in white middle class suburbia, presenting female while I'm unpassable is just about the worst and most humiliating thing I can think of doing. So basically I need to make this massive jump from presenting male to having FFS and presenting female full time just to really kick off my transition.
Right after graduation from uni and few years later, I twice experimented with transitioning. I totally understand your point. YES passing WAS paramount for me then and still is, to a large extent, today. I grew up as a big fat target of ridicule. I worked hard to get through uni, get a degree in something I love doing. I wasn't a total POS like I thought myself to be. Just mostly one. I NEEDED to feel I was good at at least the one thing that totally turned me on. Being an engineer was and is still today a BIG aspect of myself. I am unwilling to sacrifice that on the alter of trans.... That is unless I really really have to. To date, I've been blessed and haven't hit that dark wall. TBH, I am unsure how much time I got before I do.
There are PLENTY of teens and 20 somethings out there that... TBH, don't really pass but at the same time don't give a rat's ass about it. For some it's like a mind F* game, others it's just what it is. I am sooooo totally envious of them. I wish I couldn't give a rat's ass what other people think, but I do.
They have self confidence fostered by growing up in a far far different day and age. In the 60's, 70's 80's even 90's being essentially a public trans pretty much put you in the modern day leper colony. It has taken me several years of hard work to reach a point where I have enough self confidence to venture out into the real world as the real me. THERE IS NO GREATER FEELING. But I do have a life, a career, an invalid wife, and bills to also worry about. I'd love to go full-time. Thankfully, I don't have to... yet.
There is one major inexorable force that every one I know of that went full-time seems to have in common. That is we all reached the "Transition or Die" point. When you are 40-50 or older you tried the alternative option to no or some avail. When you are 20 or younger, it is far far more important to think "I can totally pull this off if...." Totally passing is a BIG if. Many cis women have a hard time at it! Prying on cis women's low self esteem is a multi-billion dollar industry
I am beginning to think that there is this "Dead Zone" for trans people that begins somewhere around the 8th grade and ends in your 40's or later. We need to survive, have a life, have a means of supporting ourselves, no matter what, Or of course just die trying. Once you have a "History" it is difficult to make a jump. When you're 12, no-prob. OK plenty of HS crap but... that is the really the same no matter. Eventually you reach a point in your life that a) You cant take it any more and b) I feel secure enough to dare try.
Quote from: Nevara on December 21, 2014, 01:20:31 AM
For most people I'd say yes it is. Say what you will, but there is a huge amount of discrimination towards visible transgender people. This seems to be especially true for transwomen. If you pass, you are treated as any other young woman. If you don't pass, you are suddenly a freak.
Every time I bring this up, someone gets into a debate of male vs. female privilege, but let me say that being visibly transgender is about worst thing you can do to yourself in terms of career, education and social (dating) opportunities.
If you had a career for 20 years and you're established financially and socially, not passing might be doable. However for a fresh college-grad in her early 20s, passing is paramount. I wouldn't even DARE walk into an interview presenting female unless I wanted to be laughed out of an opportunity. No one wants to hire or admit a transgirl when there are 100s of equally qualified cis-guys and girls applying as well. Not passing pretty much denies you any opportunity at any client-facing careers. So I'm pretty much forced to drudge it out in male mode until I have my surgeries.
I guess this is why I have a hard time relating to the 40- and 50- year olds here who can brush off not passing. It's also why I envy the girls that were able to transition early so much. I know I won't be passable before I have FFS. And in white middle class suburbia, presenting female while I'm unpassable is just about the worst and most humiliating thing I can think of doing. So basically I need to make this massive jump from presenting male to having FFS and presenting female full time just to really kick off my transition.
I'm not actually 40 yet, so I'll dial back the righteous indignation.. :P
Not passing is doable at any age.. Passing is doable at any age. Heck, passing is a complicated mix of things, of which, looks are just one part. I've met trans women who physically pass just fine - until they move.. Or speak. I've also met trans women who were arguably quite marginally physically passable, but passed just fine because they have the rest of the package together.
I'm pretty sure a criminal record would have more of a negative effect on my life than being trans. Career continues to progress at a reasonable pace. As for dating, I do better now as a non-op lesbian that I ever did pre-transition. As for education, I could choose to attend any tertiary institution I can gain entry to based on my merits.
I don't 'brush off' my lack of physical passability. I've just realised that way more often than not, being able to deliver the 'whole package' works a whole lot better than simply looks.
Quote from: JoanneB on December 21, 2014, 08:34:45 PM
There is one major inexorable force that every one I know of that went full-time seems to have in common. That is we all reached the "Transition or Die" point. When you are 40-50 or older you tried the alternative option to no or some avail.
Pretty much sums up my situation.
for me it is or at least pass some of the time. But the most i want is to pass the approval of my wife to know she accepts me. I have been hiding and fighting this for 39 years. So now that i have taken the first step and stepped out. I feel i want nothing less to pass. But this is just what i want as i feel i need to pass to be happy. If you are happy and dont pass then you know what. Sound like you are still a winner. So really only one that can answer the question of do you need to pass is you. everyone else just helps to validate your own answers.
Vicky
MtF
Passing is important to me.. but perhaps not totally necessary.. I think someday I will have a greater desire to pass and be only perceived as female by any new people I meet. I just want the ability to let people know about my transness at my own discretion and not at my body's/face's nonpassability. But I'm going about the world now presenting as female, without any hrt or surgery, and I'm not sure if I pass 100%... yet I'm happier and feeling more sure about my transition.
I live in a rough part of town. Not passing would mean violence
I really really really really really hope to be passable. It won't make or break my transition, and I hope to be active and visible in the community anyway, but I of course would like to not be too easily picked out of a crowd either.
For me, yes, passing is necessary.
Quote from: Cindy on December 20, 2014, 12:18:20 AM
A different view. Passing is in your brain, not in other people's.
???
Quote from: Hanazono on December 19, 2014, 11:55:18 PM
passing is useful to appropriate cis privilege... in some societies being visibly trans marginalizes otherwise mainstream people.
This! :)
Whether you pass or not dictates the experience that you receive. Having the experience that a woman would have going around your daily business is different to the experience of that of someone who is identified as a transgender. I transitioned to experience being a woman externally as well as what i feel internally. I didn't transition to experience being treated as a transperson. I want to live what every other woman lives. So in that regard passing is everything for me even so far a if i thought for a second that I could not (eventually)pass i would not have transitioned.
I feel passing is to subjective and not worth the effort to think about.
Just another one of the fear hurtles
I say be yourself, stay your age and less is more.
Just my nickel.
I would say acceptance trumps passing. I've found acceptance everywhere I've gone - I get treated as a woman regardless if I've been read or not. For me, the main goal is to be treated as, and interacted with as a female. That comes with acceptance. Passing just makes it easier on other people. :) Mind you I live in a fairly LGBT aware and accepting area. I've even had estheticians treat me as Jess when I've gone in boy clothes to a laser hair removal appointment. That was really cool.
Hugs,
Jess