At the start of the month I was prescribed a month's supply of Cyproterone Acetate as a sort of trial see how I feel type thing. Mentally I felt pretty good but 6 days after taking it I had some really scary side effects. Thankfully I feel fine now.
But the thing is during that week I felt so terrible that I resolved that once I was better I was going to put these feelings behind me. I even felt pretty happy that it had happened. I've often felt like something drastic was going to have to happen to give me some clarity, and it felt like this was it. Nothing is worth risking your health. So what if deep down I know I'm transgender. I've been good at being a guy. If I can be who I was before I'd be happy. Maybe I just need to focus on the great friends and family I have, focus on the huge advantages I still have in life despite doing my best to mess it up, focus on exercise and the hobbies that I love, focus on what I am good at and forget what makes me insecure, care less about what I see in the mirror. I think I could be happy. I still change my mind constantly, but for the first time in ages I'm seriously thinking about flipping that switch that I've left alone lately, and really giving it a shot. I really believe you can do a lot with positive thought. I know it is far healthier to accept who you are naturally. But I had 20 years or so of lying in bed at night and wishing I would wake up a girl before I realised where that might be leading me. That creates a pretty powerful desire. I think I could practice changing the way I think and stop giving this desire so much space in my head.
I should say I think I'm far from typical of most people with gender dysphoria. I don't want anyone to think I'm saying you can just think this feeling away. I mean I wish I was a girl. I always will. But I'm not. So the second option has always been be the best guy that I can be. That is what my life has been up to this point. And I've liked who I was. I think I can again. I never hated being a guy, I just always knew I'd prefer being a girl. I think that means that transition would be the third option. If I was lucky enough to know that I could pass I'd do it. But I can't. One of the things that has made me realise I am transgender is that I used to put on my sisters clothes in secret. But I more or less stopped around 16. I never really knew why I stopped but I know now it was because I used to be able to look in the mirror and see a girl. As soon as my body started getting big it just embarassed me. I looked in the mirror and saw a big guy in girls clothes. I think that is what transition would feel like. I want to be a cis-girl. I don't want to be a transgender. So again, given that life wasn't so bad for me, I think that the best option is to put these feelings away again.
Like I said I was good at being a guy. There were definitely things I liked about my life that were as a result of being a guy. Being good at sports and getting the respect of others for being athletic and strong made me happy and I'd be giving that up. I liked that attention I got from girls and I liked playing that role. It never felt like I was faking anything. If I decide to put this behind me then that is the type of guy I want to be again. I don't mean macho but I like being the kind of guy that girls would be attracted to and that other guys respect. I mean that is the me that I was when I was happy.
So here is my question. What do you think my chances are? If I end up depressed and decide to transition anyway in 10 or 20 years I'm going to have so much regret. I want to avoid that so badly. I know no one can really know but me, that I need to go to therapy etc, that is not what I'm looking for here. I'm not going to base my choice on what some people say to me on the internet. So seriously, if I put a gun to your head, based on just what I've said here, what do you think my chances are of being able to leave these feelings alone?
It doesn't go away and it doesn't get better. Exactly what that means for you, only you will know. But have a good look around the site and you will quite few stories of people who started when young, stopped and then found themselves transitioning later. And then you get people like me, who just tried to be the best man I could be - all I'm going to say is that no one was surprised when I eventually came out and transitioned, except me.
If it were me, I'd do it now, rather then live the train wreck of a life I lived on my way here..
Hi Orangejuice,
Everyone is different. For me, I put it off and hated being trans and bi. I tied to kill myself twice December 2012 when I just could not put the thoughts out of my head and I could not suppress it anymore .
I constructed a life to occupy all my time. When My Mom died late in 2011 all of what I tried to hold back came rushing in. I tried to hold it back and I failed.
I have read that as testosterone drops when we age the feelings become unstoppable. It is for me.
I made a deal with myself at age 12 that transitioning in 1987 was impossible so I would make the most of my life as a male. I did. By age 36, graduated top of my undergrad class, top of my law school class, worked at an international law firm ranked in the top 15 in the US, left there, started my own firm, married the girl I wanted to, had three beautiful kids, we live on the lake, have a gorgeous house with the pool and all of that, we have all the sporting event tickets anyone wants, we travel, drive nice cars, and on and on and on and every step of the way dysphoria got harder to deal with. I'm now 40% through my transition and have only professional transition left to do and working on that this year.
I don't know your story but for me having it all made it worse in a lot of ways because I realized it wasn't what I wanted or what I needed.
I hope to keep all of that which we accomplished but being good and being a male doesn't cut it for me anymore.
YMMV
never got better for me.
Mmmmm I suppose I asked for this didn't I haha thanks for the replies.
Quote from: ashley_thomas on January 05, 2015, 07:59:25 PM
I made a deal with myself at age 12 that transitioning in 1987 was impossible so I would make the most of my life as a male. I did. By age 36, graduated top of my undergrad class, top of my law school class, worked at an international law firm ranked in the top 15 in the US, left there, started my own firm, married the girl I wanted to, had three beautiful kids, we live on the lake, have a gorgeous house with the pool and all of that, we have all the sporting event tickets anyone wants, we travel, drive nice cars, and on and on and on and every step of the way dysphoria got harder to deal with. I'm now 40% through my transition and have only professional transition left to do and working on that this year.
I don't know your story but for me having it all made it worse in a lot of ways because I realized it wasn't what I wanted or what I needed.
I hope to keep all of that which we accomplished but being good and being a male doesn't cut it for me anymore.
YMMV
Hi Ashley your story is really interesting. I know you will probably say I don't know any better, but I think if I had as successful a life as yours I would be happy. I'm 25. For the first 18 years of my life I basically had the ideal childhood. Lucky enough to go to a great school, was popular,great friends, good looking, sports captain, school captain, good grades, got into study Law at University actually-which I then unfortunately completely blew as I started to get unhappy. Massive regret. Anyway the whole time I knew I'd rather be a girl, but it didn't bother me in the slightest. I know that might sound weird, but there honestly wasn't the tiniest shred of me that was unhappy. It was only when all these things started to crumble away that I began to see the feeling of wanting to be a girl as a problem. So I don't know if I can work on sorting out other aspects of my life I think I could be happy again. It's where I'm leaning at the moment.
I also find it difficult because how do I know that there aren't people out there similar to me who
have been able to leave it alone and be happy? I mean if there are they aren't going to be coming on sites like this one you know? This whole thing is just really hard to work out. But thanks again for the comments it helps.
Back in high school, and the first year of college, the dysphoria was so bad that I couldn't go a single day without thinking about it and without feeling bad about it.
My experience is a bit different than other people's though... it did get better for me after age 19, for a while. I had to basically decide 100% that I was going to get over it, going to pray it away, was going to devote my life to God instead, and then I fell in love for the first time in my life, in order for me to start doing better. But I did do better after that. It was a struggle the whole way, still dealing with a body I hated, a sex-drive I hated, having almost no social life, and having to fight, fight, fight, every single day just to get myself to do my homework, just to get myself out of bed, bound and determined that I was going to succeed no matter what, and was going to keep fighting to be a success and fulfill my life's Godly purpose no matter what, but I DID cope, however hard it was. And trying to pray it away, while it did NOT make the dysphoria go away, was able to change it from something that was dominating my life and making it near-unlivable in terms of stress, to at least giving me a reason to fight the dysphoric voices in my head telling me that my body was wrong and my social life was wrong, which made it more of just a persistent lingering annoyance that only somewhat interfered with my day-to-day functioning. (Mostly in ways that I didn't understand at the time until I finally went on hormones and experienced the way that my mind was actually supposed to work.)
Admittedly, though, even graduating college, having a girl that I loved enough that I was thinking of marrying her, having our own house together, getting my first full-time job in a field that I'd always wanted to be in, and having every single external reason to be happy, still did not make the dysphoria go away. And the ticking clock did indeed get worse and worse. My hair was starting to fall out, I was getting even bigger and even more male-ish, and my youthful androgynous features were disappearing more and more with every single year. And then when I finally saw videos of people my age who had transitioned, and read that HRT could only reverse 5-7 years of hair loss, I knew that it was now or never, that I could still transition now and reasonably expect to pass, but if I waited even just another few years it was going to keep getting harder and harder. It was either deal with it now or possibly be stuck between a rock and a hard place later.
Yes, I could hide it. I did hide it. And my life was by all means externally a success. But despite more or less successfully fighting it, and my dysphoria getting a bit better, I was still fighting it. Which meant that I wasn't really happy with myself, I was just coping with it. Always coping.
If my dysphoria had stayed at the level it was, even five years ago, I could have got away with not transitioning and never telling another soul about it. Then it pretty much snowballed to where it could never again be denied, ignored nor suppressed. My dysphoria turned from a little voice in the background to a sad, angry, desperate woman screaming bloody murder 24/7. I can't believe I did this to myself. That sad, angry desperate woman was the real me and I almost died trying to squash her. I can't believe that I was so afraid of being Jill. I'm really not all that scary. In fact, I think I'm cute and silly. I love being me.
I think I need to have a good cry right now.
Quote from: orangejuice on January 05, 2015, 08:27:48 PM
Mmmmm I suppose I asked for this didn't I haha thanks for the replies.
Hi Ashley your story is really interesting. I know you will probably say I don't know any better, but I think if I had as successful a life as yours I would be happy. I'm 25. For the first 18 years of my life I basically had the ideal childhood. Lucky enough to go to a great school, was popular,great friends, good looking, sports captain, school captain, good grades, got into study Law at University actually-which I then unfortunately completely blew as I started to get unhappy. Massive regret. Anyway the whole time I knew I'd rather be a girl, but it didn't bother me in the slightest. I know that might sound weird, but there honestly wasn't the tiniest shred of me that was unhappy. It was only when all these things started to crumble away that I began to see the feeling of wanting to be a girl as a problem. So I don't know if I can work on sorting out other aspects of my life I think I could be happy again. It's where I'm leaning at the moment.
I also find it difficult because how do I know that there aren't people out there similar to me who have been able to leave it alone and be happy? I mean if there are they aren't going to be coming on sites like this one you know? This whole thing is just really hard to work out. But thanks again for the comments it helps.
OJ, I intend to keep all of that which we built and then build upon it some more. I've lost a brother and a mother and expect to lose my father but I have already gained so much more. I expect to lose some financially but intend to land solid on my feet and to build back and then move even higher.
The point is, the drum beat of dysphoria didn't go away and I started to run out of things to accomplish
Look up the "hedonic treadmill" or "hedonic adaptation" and you'll see happiness from things like what we can achieve is fleeting, and add to that dysphoria and you can see that it's likely dysphoria will never go away.
I shuddered to think of what it would be like to grow old as a man, growing old as a woman? I can do that a number of ways.
YMMV
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 05, 2015, 08:42:17 PM
Back in high school, and the first year of college, the dysphoria was so bad that I couldn't go a single day without thinking about it and without feeling bad about it.
My experience is a bit different than other people's though... it did get better for me after age 19, for a while. I had to basically decide 100% that I was going to get over it, going to pray it away, was going to devote my life to God instead, and then I fell in love for the first time in my life, in order for me to start doing better. But I did do better after that. It was a struggle the whole way, still dealing with a body I hated, a sex-drive I hated, having almost no social life, and having to fight, fight, fight, every single day just to get myself to do my homework, just to get myself out of bed, bound and determined that I was going to succeed no matter what, and was going to keep fighting to be a success and fulfill my life's Godly purpose no matter what, but I DID cope, however hard it was. And trying to pray it away, while it did NOT make the dysphoria go away, was able to change it from something that was dominating my life and making it near-unlivable in terms of stress, to at least giving me a reason to fight the dysphoric voices in my head telling me that my body was wrong and my social life was wrong, which made it more of just a persistent lingering annoyance that only somewhat interfered with my day-to-day functioning. (Mostly in ways that I didn't understand at the time until I finally went on hormones and experienced the way that my mind was actually supposed to work.)
Admittedly, though, even graduating college, having a girl that I loved enough that I was thinking of marrying her, having our own house together, getting my first full-time job in a field that I'd always wanted to be in, and having every single external reason to be happy, still did not make the dysphoria go away. And the ticking clock did indeed get worse and worse. My hair was starting to fall out, I was getting even bigger and even more male-ish, and my youthful androgynous features were disappearing more and more with every single year. And then when I finally saw videos of people my age who had transitioned, and read that HRT could only reverse 5-7 years of hair loss, I knew that it was now or never, that I could still transition now and reasonably expect to pass, but if I waited even just another few years it was going to keep getting harder and harder. It was either deal with it now or possibly be stuck between a rock and a hard place later.
Yes, I could hide it. I did hide it. And my life was by all means externally a success. But despite more or less successfully fighting it, and my dysphoria getting a bit better, I was still fighting it. Which meant that I wasn't really happy with myself, I was just coping with it. Always coping.
Hi CarrieLiz. See when I have been able to put the feeling away in the last few years or so, I haven't feel like I was struggling through anything. In fact the longer I could go without thinking about it the better I felt. But the thing is I have never been able to stop it coming back. But like I say, when I was happy with everything else in my life it didn't bother me.
That is a few times I've heard that line about HRT reversing 5-7 years of hair loss. Is that seriously true? That alone genuinely makes me want to transition. My hair started to fall out at 18. I took propecia which halted it for a few years but then stopped again. But if I could get back 5-7 years boy that would make me insanely happy. Maybe it is all part of the same thing but I genuinely wonder sometimes whether I am transgender or whether I just can't handle going bald. It makes me want to kill myself every time I look in the mirror. Seriously. Its part of what I'm saying here. If I didn't feel that way every time I looked in the mirror then I think I'd be happy, and I didn't feel that way before my hair started to fall out. But then again maybe the fact that changing my gender would be nothing other than a positive side effect of getting my hair back is telling me something.
Quote from: orangejuice on January 05, 2015, 09:06:05 PM
Hi CarrieLiz. See when I have been able to put the feeling away in the last few years or so, I haven't feel like I was struggling through anything. In fact the longer I could go without thinking about it the better I felt. But the thing is I have never been able to stop it coming back. But like I say, when I was happy with everything else in my life it didn't bother me.
That is a few times I've heard that line about HRT reversing 5-7 years of hair loss. Is that seriously true? That alone genuinely makes me want to transition. My hair started to fall out at 18. I took propecia which halted it for a few years but then stopped again. But if I could get back 5-7 years boy that would make me insanely happy. Maybe it is all part of the same thing but I genuinely wonder sometimes whether I am transgender or whether I just can't handle going bald. It makes me want to kill myself every time I look in the mirror. Seriously. Its part of what I'm saying here. If I didn't feel that way every time I looked in the mirror then I think I'd be happy, and I didn't feel that way before my hair started to fall out. But then again maybe the fact that changing my gender would be nothing other than a positive side effect of getting my hair back is telling me something.
Well, I talk a lot about how the defining feature of being trans isn't necessarily a desire to be rid of your own sex's problems socially and with aging, it's the desire to have the socialization or body of a different sex. Lots of guys don't want to be bald. I'm actually kind of surprised how many trans-guys on this site FLIP OUT when their hair starts falling out, and I'm just sort of chuckling to myself saying "yeah, welcome to manhood... everything that goes with it." And hell, there's lots of cis women who hate being expected to be feminine, and lots of cis guys who hate being expected to be masculine. But that doesn't mean they're not men or women, it just means that, like millions of other people, they HATE going bald, or hate the social restrictions placed on their gender and want more social freedom. There's a reason why Hair Club, Propecia, Rogaine, and all of those hair-transplant surgeons exists in the first place. But these guys do NOT want to be women, and these women do NOT want to be men. They just want to be guys with more hair, or guys doing feminine things, or women who can be respected more socially.
No, the defining official medical definition of being trans is actually the following: "A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender, and assigned gender... of at least 6 months duration." Which basically means that you feel like the gender that you were assigned at birth is incongruent with the gender that you feel like you should be. And there are 6 "indicators." Generally someone needs at least two of them, again, of at least 6 months duration, to be medically diagnosed as trans.
"1. Incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender, and one's actual primary/secondary sexual characteristics. (Basically feeling bad about having male muscles, or a penis, or a blocky frame, or breasts and hips in FtMs, other things of that nature.)
2. A strong desire to be rid of one's primary/secondary sexual characteristics due to this incongruence. (Or in young adolescents a desire to prevent the development of anticipated secondary sexual characteristics.)
3. A strong desire for the primary/secondary sexual characteristics of the other gender.
4. A strong desire to be the other gender. (Or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender.)
5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender. (Or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender.)
6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender. (Or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender.)"
The persistence of it is key. All of these are "of at least 6 months duration." For most of us, gender dysphoria, our feelings of "wrongness," and our feelings that we should be the opposite sex, are something that never fully went away no matter how much we tried to fight them. Generally if it's something that keeps bothering you month after month, year after year, and you constantly have to actively repress it in order to not think about it, you probably have gender dysphoria. If it's something that only comes around once in a while, and it's fun to think about for that short time but then the thoughts fade again and you go back to being happy as a guy, are more or less totally fine with it, and it's another few months before you maybe start thinking about it again, the person is a bit less likely to be classically gender-dysphoric.
And with the hair loss thing, the question is, would you be comfortable being male if men didn't have to lose their hair, or could grow long feminine hair? Because, well, there are a ton of ways to not lose your hair despite having male hormones in you. Hair loss is completely because of a hormone called Dihydrotestosterone, or DHT. The reason why trans* people generally regrow some hair is because HRT knocks our T levels down to almost nothing, and no T means no DHT either. But you don't have to be on HRT in order to do that. In fact, that's exactly how Propecia works, is by preventing the conversion of T into DHT. Dutasteride does the same thing.
Same thing with socialization. One of the reasons why I was pretty sure about transition was because there was a point where I thought to myself "you know what? Why am I attributing these feminine things to being female? Why am I keeping myself from shaving my legs? Why am I keeping myself from wearing "softer" looking clothes? Why am I letting being male stop me from insisting that people treat me warmly and openly instead of as a threat? That's society speaking. I can still do those things as a guy! Who says I need to transition in order to do them?" And I did do them as a guy... and it still wasn't enough. I quickly realized that no amount of social freedom could make me happy with having a male body. I wanted the smooth skin, I wanted the reduced slender musculature, I wanted my body hair GONE, I wanted curves, I wanted the softer features, and I was still uncomfortable with the male sex-drive and male-hormone-fueled emotions. And so I knew I had to transition.
Just some thought experiments to consider.
Hi orangejuice,
for me it's very true.
I had a few issues when I was younger, but not sufficiently strong that I ever made the connection to being transgender. I only realized when I was in my 40's and it started getting much stronger. I was ok on low dose estrogen for some years after that, but it didn't last. It just kept getting worse and worse until I couldn't take it anymore, and now I'm on full HRT. I'm ok again, for the moment. Not planning on socially transitioning though. Not really planning too much at all. Planning to stop it, for me at least, has been an utterly futile and awful experience.
I've no idea how my experience relates to anyone else of course, but I had all that and you sound like you've got it much worse that I ever did when I was younger.
I don't think it matters what else you have in your life either, no matter how successful you are. Its not something that anything else in your life counterbalances. It didn't help me stop feeling like this, and perhaps in some ways the more you have to lose the more it makes you reluctant to risk it all and go forward.
I didn't start with an anti-androgen so I don't know what effect that has, but perhaps you should try estrogen. You might suddenly realize what your missing. I so much wish I'd known earlier.
Quote from: AnonyMs on January 05, 2015, 11:28:46 PM
Hi orangejuice,
for me it's very true.
I had a few issues when I was younger, but not sufficiently strong that I ever made the connection to being transgender. I only realized when I was in my 40's and it started getting much stronger. I was ok on low dose estrogen for some years after that, but it didn't last. It just kept getting worse and worse until I couldn't take it anymore, and now I'm on full HRT. I'm ok again, for the moment. Not planning on socially transitioning though. Not really planning too much at all. Planning to stop it, for me at least, has been an utterly futile and awful experience.
I've no idea how my experience relates to anyone else of course, but I had all that and you sound like you've got it much worse that I ever did when I was younger.
I don't think it matters what else you have in your life either, no matter how successful you are. Its not something that anything else in your life counterbalances. It didn't help me stop feeling like this, and perhaps in some ways the more you have to lose the more it makes you reluctant to risk it all and go forward.
I didn't start with an anti-androgen so I don't know what effect that has, but perhaps you should try estrogen. You might suddenly realize what your missing. I so much wish I'd known earlier.
Hi AnonyMs. Ye I'm basically flipping between thinking I need to try low dose HRT and that I need to forget about it on an almost hourly basis at the moment. I mean I'll just say it. I'm unquestionably transgender. I want to be a girl so badly. The reasons I think I might be happier leaving it alone don't cone from me. They come from everyone else. They come from my parents, my sisters, my friends, the way people would look at me when I walked down the street. They come from my own shame that society has taught me and which I can't rid myself of no matter how hard I try. They come from all the people who have known me as the guy I was and the way I'll be seen as a result. There is a reasonable enough chance that I could not pass to the extent that I'd forever draw stares walking down the street. I don't want that life.
Can I ask how noticeable it was physically for you on low dose HRT? That is the only other potential option for me. I might actually not pass so much that it could be a blessing. I mean I'd happily take all the effects of HRT without breasts. Then I could just live a normal life presenting as a guy. But sadly even that seems unlikely.
It does get worse with age for me, but I'm only 23 now.
As I start feeling and looking more male, I feel more uncomfortable about it, 'uncomfortable' doesn't even begin to describe how I feel, but I'm gonna go with it. I also think the realization that I might be trans has put my mind at ease somewhat since I no longer feel like there is something wrong with me, but has also increased my dysphoria. I do have thin hair at the moment (not going bald or anything), fixing my hair would make me feel a little better, but my issue with my body is a lot more than just hair. The problem in my case, is that I'm not really 'growing up' or I don't want to, when I try to think about my future, I don't see anything.... it's hard for me to explain. I never wanted any of this, I just want to feel 'OK', at the moment I don't, I don't know why I feel this way either, I'm a skeptic through and through, I qestion everything, but the feeling just won't go away, and it's so tiring. It's just ridiculous., sometimes.
I'm not on HRT, so I don't really know, but from what I've heard, low dose HRT can make you grow breasts, I'm not sure if you can just choose what kind of 'changes' you want with the body. (but that'd be great too).
Quote from: Cin on January 06, 2015, 12:28:03 AM
It does get worse with age for me, but I'm only 23 now.
As I start feeling and looking more male, I feel more uncomfortable about it, 'uncomfortable' doesn't even begin to describe how I feel, but I'm gonna go with it. I also think the realization that I might be trans has put my mind at ease somewhat since I no longer feel like there is something wrong with me, but has also increased my dysphoria. I do have thin hair at the moment (not going bald or anything), fixing my hair would make me feel a little better, but my issue with my body is a lot more than just hair. The problem in my case, is that I'm not really 'growing up' or I don't want to, when I try to think about my future, I don't see anything.... it's hard for me to explain. I never wanted any of this, I just want to feel 'OK', at the moment I don't, I don't know why I feel this way either, I'm a skeptic through and through, I qestion everything, but the feeling just won't go away, and it's so tiring. It's just ridiculous., sometimes.
I'm not on HRT, so I don't really know, but from what I've heard, low dose HRT can make you grow breasts, I'm not sure if you can just choose what kind of 'changes' you want with the body. (but that'd be great too).
Hi Cin, what you find hard to explain sounds so familiar to me. What you said describes me exactly since I was 18. The first feeling I had that made me know something was so wrong, was when everyone was growing up, leaving school, going to college etc and generally finding themselves as adults, I didn't want any of it. The amount of times I've said those exact words, about looking into the future and not seeing anything.
Ye you can't pick and choose. Wish you could.
I was in one of the best places for being trans*, my wife knew and was OK with me dressing as soon as I came home from work, go on holidays as sisters.
I'm also successful career wise, I was terrified of losing the lot so I was content to just keep going on as Cindy behind the curtain.
But Cindy behind the curtain was being sustained by alcohol abuse so that she would forget that she had to cross dress the next day to go to work. Cindy behind the curtain was a pretty miserable selfish bitch who saw her existence as more important than anyone elses.
And then it got too much and .... I got rid of the curtain, I live a happy, very full, sober, life with friends and family.
Only one regret. Why didn't I do this when I was a kid?
Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 05, 2015, 09:40:23 PM
Well, I talk a lot about how the defining feature of being trans isn't necessarily a desire to be rid of your own sex's problems socially and with aging, it's the desire to have the socialization or body of a different sex. Lots of guys don't want to be bald. I'm actually kind of surprised how many trans-guys on this site FLIP OUT when their hair starts falling out, and I'm just sort of chuckling to myself saying "yeah, welcome to manhood... everything that goes with it." And hell, there's lots of cis women who hate being expected to be feminine, and lots of cis guys who hate being expected to be masculine. But that doesn't mean they're not men or women, it just means that, like millions of other people, they HATE going bald, or hate the social restrictions placed on their gender and want more social freedom. There's a reason why Hair Club, Propecia, Rogaine, and all of those hair-transplant surgeons exists in the first place. But these guys do NOT want to be women, and these women do NOT want to be men. They just want to be guys with more hair, or guys doing feminine things, or women who can be respected more socially.
No, the defining official medical definition of being trans is actually the following: "A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender, and assigned gender... of at least 6 months duration." Which basically means that you feel like the gender that you were assigned at birth is incongruent with the gender that you feel like you should be. And there are 6 "indicators." Generally someone needs at least two of them, again, of at least 6 months duration, to be medically diagnosed as trans.
"1. Incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender, and one's actual primary/secondary sexual characteristics. (Basically feeling bad about having male muscles, or a penis, or a blocky frame, or breasts and hips in FtMs, other things of that nature.)
2. A strong desire to be rid of one's primary/secondary sexual characteristics due to this incongruence. (Or in young adolescents a desire to prevent the development of anticipated secondary sexual characteristics.)
3. A strong desire for the primary/secondary sexual characteristics of the other gender.
4. A strong desire to be the other gender. (Or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender.)
5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender. (Or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender.)
6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender. (Or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender.)"
The persistence of it is key. All of these are "of at least 6 months duration." For most of us, gender dysphoria, our feelings of "wrongness," and our feelings that we should be the opposite sex, are something that never fully went away no matter how much we tried to fight them. Generally if it's something that keeps bothering you month after month, year after year, and you constantly have to actively repress it in order to not think about it, you probably have gender dysphoria. If it's something that only comes around once in a while, and it's fun to think about for that short time but then the thoughts fade again and you go back to being happy as a guy, are more or less totally fine with it, and it's another few months before you maybe start thinking about it again, the person is a bit less likely to be classically gender-dysphoric.
And with the hair loss thing, the question is, would you be comfortable being male if men didn't have to lose their hair, or could grow long feminine hair? Because, well, there are a ton of ways to not lose your hair despite having male hormones in you. Hair loss is completely because of a hormone called Dihydrotestosterone, or DHT. The reason why trans* people generally regrow some hair is because HRT knocks our T levels down to almost nothing, and no T means no DHT either. But you don't have to be on HRT in order to do that. In fact, that's exactly how Propecia works, is by preventing the conversion of T into DHT. Dutasteride does the same thing.
Same thing with socialization. One of the reasons why I was pretty sure about transition was because there was a point where I thought to myself "you know what? Why am I attributing these feminine things to being female? Why am I keeping myself from shaving my legs? Why am I keeping myself from wearing "softer" looking clothes? Why am I letting being male stop me from insisting that people treat me warmly and openly instead of as a threat? That's society speaking. I can still do those things as a guy! Who says I need to transition in order to do them?" And I did do them as a guy... and it still wasn't enough. I quickly realized that no amount of social freedom could make me happy with having a male body. I wanted the smooth skin, I wanted the reduced slender musculature, I wanted my body hair GONE, I wanted curves, I wanted the softer features, and I was still uncomfortable with the male sex-drive and male-hormone-fueled emotions. And so I knew I had to transition.
Just some thought experiments to consider.
Ye 3,4,5 and 6 I have big time. It does confuse me a little that I don't have 1 or 2 really but whatever, everyone is different and I don't think there's one way you experience this stuff. I'm now absolutely certain I'm transgender. There are memories there from as early as 3 or 4 which is pretty much the deal breaker. That wasn't really what I was questioning but thanks for the info, interesting stuff. It's just I've been given this feeling that has always been there, but literally every other circumstance of my life has lead me to be a fairly successful guy. As a result there is so much to put on the 'cons' list for transitioning. Internally and externally.
Well I have to chime in with another 'No, it doesn't go away, it gets worse'.
I think you really have to sit and think babe. Drift off into fantasy land in your head and imagine living your future life as a female, how does that make you feel? Then imagine that same fantasy future as a man.
I don't believe everyone has to reach a 'do or die' stage of dysphoria to decide to transition. It can be based simply on what you would prefer, as long as you are aware of the possible consequences of course, and are prepared to accept them.
But I really wouldn't advise basing your decision on some vague hope that it may all go away with time, I think there are enough posts on here to disabuse you of that notion :)
Hi orangejuice,
so physically there's been a number of changes, but I've managed to hide it all quite successfully.
My face looks noticeably different, and actually pretty odd in the early days, but I keep a short stubble and that hides it perfectly. There's a special shaver for stubble. I've not seen my face clean shaven in years now.
My breasts got to perhaps B on low dose, and a fair bit bigger now. I can still hide no problem, but due to my circumstances I'm free to dress however I like and don't need to meet people much, so that makes it a lot easier. My personal situation is quite unusual, and it depends what genetics gifts you with of course.
Body shape has changed, but the right (crappy looking baggy) clothes can hide that.
You might want to bear in mind that if you start estrogen it may not be the physical changes that will be causing you problems. I found the mental changes are huge, far bigger than physical ones. Its good in a way, since you'll probably know what you want or need to do at that point, and won't be questioning anymore. I started and stopped HRT a few times in the early days - whatever starting estrogen does, stopping really clarifies things. I'm not doing that ever again.
I'm not in a very good situation with all this, and I don't think stopping where I am is good for me, but its a trade off with some other things. Its not ideal no matter what I do, and I'd not really recommend this path. It's useful perhaps when you're trying to work out where its all going, but long term I think it sucks. Younger really would have been so much better.
If its just other peoples stopping you all I can say is they have no idea what they are talking about, and they are not going to pay the price of being wrong about this either way it turns out.
Regarding passing, obviously I've not even attempted to, but I've seen endless YouTube video's of people transitioning and its quite amazing what people achieve. There's got to be hundreds of Youtube channels on this, and I think I've seen most of them. I can't imagine passing either, but I've seen enough to be confident I could eventually, and I can afford surgery if it comes to that.
From what you say I suspect that even if you stop now, you'll just end up in the same position later, only everything will be so much harder. At some point there's no choice, and its fear that pushes many of us right up to that boundary.
I tried to transition when I was 23. I was on HRT for two years before deciding "it was never going to work" and stopping. Despite the fact I felt distraught about not being able to live my life as a woman I was able to bury those feelings underneath distraction and personal projects and general busy-ness. Other people might use drugs, alcohol and other things - anything to help forget and not feel the pain. I tried for so long to keep all that pushed down - I am a writer and artist and was able to use that to shunt my feelings off into some parallel world where I could live my female life through female characters and fantasy. I think I coped in the real world by presuming I was a woman and that as long as I didn't act like a man, even though I outwardly looked and presented as male I would still be accepted as female. That of course was just a delusion. I hadn't realised I was in a slowly descending spiral of depression and denial - my cleverly but unconsciously crafted make believe world crashed up hard against reality one day and quickly imploded. Then I just realised how deeply and desperately miserable I truly was and that the solution, predictably, was exactly the same as it had been back when I detransitioned 20 years earlier.
The thing to remember is that transition is not a magic fix all - if you have other problems and issues in life the only thing transition will resolve if you are trans is that you will be able to live as the gender you identify as. It will help with a lot of the dysphoria but it won't instantly make your life or your emotions better. Finding out how to do that is part of the journey of transition.
I don't seem to fit into the usual (MtF) trans narrative, but the dysphoria does seem to have become much more of an issue for me in the past few years. I don't know if it's that the dysphoria is actually worse or that I'm finally allowing myself to see it as dysphoria. I can't say I was ever much of a success at being an ANSI-standard Man(tm) (nor did I really want to be), but I did keep myself busy doing the male-permitted stuff I imagined would make my life fulfilled.
I think what turned me around was when I was forced to realize that trying to be what everybody told me I was (or was supposed to be) wasn't working. (Actually, it was killing me.) I started trying to find out who I was underneath the manure-pile of "shoulds" and have come to see that I've never been happy being male. I've just done it because it never occurred to me that there was an alternative. It's like if you've only ever seen black-and-white movies and TVs and then one day you see something in color. Having considered the option of living my (few) remaining years as a woman vs. as a man, I can't be satisfied with the black-and-white life my existence up to now has been. (Of course, the idea of actually changing scares me silly. On the other hand, my butt's gettin' awfully sore from sitting on this here fence.)
I think when you're younger, you can imagine that the future will take care of the nagging doubts and dissatisfactions you face. It'll all become fine when I marry the right person, when I get the right job, when I have kids (all of them "above average," of course :) .) Then you get to the point where there isn't so much future ahead of you and you realize doing the stuff everyone tells you will make it all worth it doesn't make it all worth it.
Quote from: Ms Grace on January 06, 2015, 06:38:48 AM
I tried to transition when I was 23. I was on HRT for two years before deciding "it was never going to work" and stopping. Despite the fact I felt distraught about not being able to live my life as a woman I was able to bury those feelings underneath distraction and personal projects and general busy-ness. Other people might use drugs, alcohol and other things - anything to help forget and not feel the pain. I tried for so long to keep all that pushed down - I am a writer and artist and was able to use that to shunt my feelings off into some parallel world where I could live my female life through female characters and fantasy. I think I coped in the real world by presuming I was a woman and that as long as I didn't act like a man, even though I outwardly looked and presented as male I would still be accepted as female. That of course was just a delusion. I hadn't realised I was in a slowly descending spiral of depression and denial - my cleverly but unconsciously crafted make believe world crashed up hard against reality one day and quickly imploded. Then I just realised how deeply and desperately miserable I truly was and that the solution, predictably, was exactly the same as it had been back when I detransitioned 20 years earlier.
The thing to remember is that transition is not a magic fix all - if you have other problems and issues in life the only thing transition will resolve if you are trans is that you will be able to live as the gender you identify as. It will help with a lot of the dysphoria but it won't instantly make your life or your emotions better. Finding out how to do that is part of the journey of transition.
Distractions do work, definitely. When I'm doing things I like or am *forced* to do like study or homework or even paying bills (and other stuff I really hate), 'gender thoughts' don't necessarily enter into my head. It all starts at the end of the day for me, for, when I feel like my 'professional' life's going OK, but I need a 'personal' life too, that's because I feel like I'm making no progress as a 'person'. (I'm terrible at describing how I feel, sorry)
I agree with it not being a magic fix too, I don't think it would fix existential depression, for example.
Quote from: orangejuice on January 05, 2015, 07:18:58 PM
So seriously, if I put a gun to your head, based on just what I've said here, what do you think my chances are of being able to leave these feelings alone?
Well, since you have a gun to my head, if you are like most people, the chances are zero.
Having said that, it may well be that you are not ready to transition at this point in your life and therefore stopping now and re-evaluating your feelings and drives may be the wisest thing you can do.
Transition can be all consuming. It can take a lot of time and energy as well as money. If you are not prepared to have it occupy a large portion of your life for the next few months or years then stepping back until you are ready is definitely better than plunging in and hoping for the best.
As for me.... I thought I could take it to the grave, my "dirty" little shameful secret. I was wrong.
All consuming is right, holy heck is it right but when ready for it and when it's necessary you can do it. Frankly that's exactly what therapy is for, to help wade through all those issues.
The other thing is youth can mask a lot of these issues, it did for me. I knew I was trans for years but had no signs of aging. Dressing from time to time I could look in the mirror and see a soft good looking gal. I still don't have any wrinkles (well that's not true, around my smile, one crinkle in my forehead and a crease on my neck, but no crows feet yet) but I did start male pattern baldness and that's what made me realize I would have huge regrets when I transitioned in my 50s or 60s. Knowing I wanted to and waiting through the last years of my visible youth was where my regrets would find their home. So I moved on it and started transition.
I'd also add that I felt like crap on just testosterone and DHT blockers. It wasn't until I added E that I started to feel good about life and there is simply no way I can stop taking the little blue pills, whether I transitioned socially or not.
YMMV
Oh well, orangejuice, we are all different and what works for one might not work for another or vice versa. A lot of what You wrote in Your opening post struck memories in me. I will try to be brief and not hijack this thread with usual "I did... in my case" etc but some stuff was really similar. Ever since I was little kid, I knew something was wrong and around age of 4 -5 I figured out what the issue was. Around the age of 13 I learnt what transsexual was, read an article about Caroline Cossey, looked at her picture and sort of got impression that this could never happen with me because I was in a different situation and lived in another country. I also stopped crossdressing around the age of 15 because I started to look bad in my mom's stuff and also doing that and then switching back caused a lot of distress, so I figured out that maybe if I would not deliberately pick at it, it would not hurt afterwards or maybe go away.
I was very insecure about being a guy, but around the age of 16 I started to figure out how to be a one - I did not like most of my peers but I found role models from movies and literature who, in my opinion, were decent men and made a point always to act like them - I thought that if I would follow this simple mental programme nobody would ever find out and I would go on living like an ideal man. I took hobbies which strengthened that image - martial arts, equestrian sports, medieval swordfighting - You get the idea. The more You get into this, the more You want and need and stuff gets more and more extreme, because testosterone and adrenaline are powerful combination.
I would lie if I said that this stuff was not enjoyable - I liked what I did, it helped to forget and ghosts from past started to fade out. Except, You need to keep this stuff going because once Your mind and body become idle, vague things and deeply supressed memories will come out and You will remember who You are.
So, yeah, I was quite sure that it was over and I have dealt with it and could go on with my life as a guy. And then, something somewhere broke down and that stone wall started to crumble. At first, I did not notice anything and kept going with a flow – I started doing not very typical guy things and did not even think twice about why I did them. One thing led to another until I realised that feelings from my childhood are back in full force, like they happened just yesterday, not some 30 years ago (I was to turn 35 when I came back(. And worst part was that nothing of my coping mechanisms seemed to work anymore – suddenly, those hobbies seemed empty and shallow, and I was too scared to try out more dangerous stuff. But the most important part was that it made me remember who I was deep inside and as soon as I accepted that, I could not deny that anymore.
At one point of time, when trying to figure it all out in first attempts to sort out all that internal mess I came accross this article: http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
It opened my eyes to a lot of things, and some missing (nope, deliberately forgotten) pieces of my life came back, it all clicking into their places as some kind of puzzle. I did recognise the pattern all too well and I did not like some of possible future scenarios. So, yeah, read at Your discretion and apply to Your own situation, but there is one thing which I did learn – this thing does not really go away completely and ignoring it and pushing it into some deep and dark places does not help. You can keep runing but You wont outrun Yourself – and this stuff is INSIDE You, not in some random external place from where You can run away forever. You can run, but it keeps running with You.
Emily, thanks a lot for sharing that article by Dr. Vitale. I have been searching this site and the rest of the internet for answers to my problems for a few weeks now, but this is the first time I have seen such a clear explanation that seems to fit in so well with what I am experiencing (a classic G3).
Though I am not too sure about some of the generalizations about professions etc, and thankfully I have no sexist, homophobic or transphobic notions (at least none that I or others around me have ever noticed), the rest of the article seems spot on. And it seems scary too. :-\
I had a good few distractions. Hobbies, career, family.
But it was still buzzing in my ear like the mosquito that just wouldn't go away until you slap it and kill it.
Eventually it won and I gave up fighting.
just like Cin, I am also 23 so I cant say how it feels at an older age.
What I can say though, is that I relate a lot to what you said about how you used to be happy when you were an athlete, ect, and believe that you can get back to that. In highschool I did a lot of theatre, i loved it and felt truly happy and during that time I was never bothered by my female desires. after highschool though, they came back and truly became a problem. I always believed that If I could somehow get back to what made me happy, get my life in a good place, i could once again forget about these desires.
up until last summer it was getting really bad. then, in late august, i moved to california to pursue a career in tv or film. i loved it. I met amazing new friends and and in just a couple months i had already worked on a couple low budget projects. my dreams were coming true and once again I felt truly happy, and i hardly even thought about those female desires. i truly thought that i had beaten them, and everything was finally gonna be ok
then, just after october, sure enough the dysphoria came back, and came back harder than ever. this time it was different than ever before, because this time i couldnt just tell myself that i just needed to get my life in a better place, because now I WAS in a better place. i realized that if all these amazing new friends and dream jobs werent enough to stop the dysphoria, then nothing would. this was huge for me and it was the turning point that led me to where i am now.
now im just hoping that I can continue to pursue my dreams and be happy with my career and social life, while also finding happiness with who i am. i havent yet transitioned, so I'll have to get back to you on how that turns out :p
I cant tell you what to do, all i can say is that finding happiness in the other aspects of my life didnt work for me.
Thanks for the article Emily.
I do get that its not going to go away. I just wonder how much I can live with it, and whether living with it would be better than the life I really don't want of being seen as a freak by others. I mean more and more I'm certain that I am transgender, and I'm beginning to accept that its not my fault, but that mostly just makes me sad. I'm getting sadder and sadder every day to be honest. I'm so sad for the person that I could have been. So much better than I am now. But I just struggle to see transition as the same thing. My wish that I was a girl won't go away if I look in the mirror and don't see one and as a result the world won't treat me as one. I can't help but keep coming back to the fact that I want to be a girl, I don't want to be transgender.
I know its nuts but sometimes the only thing that keeps me going is that maybe when we die we get to experience life again somehow or that we learn about something deeper that makes all this not matter.
Quote from: ImagineKate on January 06, 2015, 12:37:51 PM
I had a good few distractions. Hobbies, career, family.
But it was still buzzing in my ear like the mosquito that just wouldn't go away until you slap it and kill it.
Eventually it won and I gave up fighting.
^This^ I tried to fill my life with distractions, which actually wasn't all that hard with ADD. Music, projects, work and movies all come to mind. I also tried every drug there was, legal or not, smoked cigarettes and drank a lot. The drugs didn't work, I quit smoking and drinking for a time after a health scare, got in shape and the dysphoria started kicking mah butt royally. As soon as I got the doc's OK, I started drinking again to drown out that little voice that was getting a bit louder every day. In March I was drinking moderately, but by October I was drinking insane amounts of hard liquor to try to drown out the screaming woman in my head. I had put the "insane" notion of transitioning out of my head ages before, and I thought I could never, ever go there.
Quote from: bbepgy on January 06, 2015, 07:01:18 AM
As for me.... I thought I could take it to the grave, my "dirty" little shameful secret. I was wrong.
I almost did that twice inside of a month. Waking up in the ER with stitches in your head totally sucks. I think my BAC was in the .4 range both times. I'm glad one of the doctors was very familiar with transgender people and told me to find a therapist right away. Now I look back and wonder what I was so afraid of. The "new me" is the "real me" and I think it's a drastic improvement. I also find sobriety quite peaceful now.
Quote from: Jill F on January 06, 2015, 01:58:35 PM
Now I look back and wonder what I was so afraid of. The "new me" is the "real me" and I think it's a drastic improvement.
Indeed. It amazes me that people are so terrified of coming out even though I remember being petrified myself :o Even so, I also remember thinking that if people turned their backs on me I could find a way to cope. I had to be me.
Quote from: Jill F on January 06, 2015, 01:58:35 PM
I also find sobriety quite peaceful now.
I never took drugs or smoked and although I never abused alcohol as you describe it, I did drink and the occasional bender found me passed out on floors. Nowadays I hardly touch the stuff. I just lack the need. I got through Xmas and New Year with 12 bottles of wine and I shared every single bottle with at least one other person and usually several. I probably had the equivalent of 4 bottles in the last 6 weeks and that is a lot these days.
I am so much more secure in myself. I no longer need "crutches".
It got worse and worse and worse until I broke. Will it be the same for you? Honestly, probably. But nobody can know but you, 10-15 years from now. But figure on slim chances of it getting better or even staying the same.
Quote from: orangejuice on January 06, 2015, 01:54:09 PM
I do get that its not going to go away. I just wonder how much I can live with it, and whether living with it would be better than the life I really don't want of being seen as a freak by others. I mean more and more I'm certain that I am transgender, and I'm beginning to accept that its not my fault, but that mostly just makes me sad. I'm getting sadder and sadder every day to be honest. I'm so sad for the person that I could have been. So much better than I am now. But I just struggle to see transition as the same thing. My wish that I was a girl won't go away if I look in the mirror and don't see one and as a result the world won't treat me as one. I can't help but keep coming back to the fact that I want to be a girl, I don't want to be transgender.
I know its nuts but sometimes the only thing that keeps me going is that maybe when we die we get to experience life again somehow or that we learn about something deeper that makes all this not matter.
Yes, but no matter what, it has always been (known or not) and will remain something which will define Your life - steps that You take, words that You speak, the way You act, take decisions etc etc etc. All my life I though that I was unique and special, that there was a higher purpose, a quest to complete. All my life I had been searching the ultimate purpose of life, sometimes thinking that journey itself was more important that the result. I always looked outside, looked for roads and ways to explore - never inside, maybe because I was afraid from I would see. There is something that my first therapist told me (he was not great at all and by far any kind of expert in trans issues), but I forgave him for this single thing. He told me that there is only one purpose for our life - to live it out fully and reach happiness.
And we can only be happy when we are whole as persons, not divided or torn by internal fears, struggles and issues.
Almost two years ago, I kept looking in the mirror, searching for answers and the more I stared at my reflection, the unhappier I became. It all reached the point when I could not even look at women on streets without tears. At that point, it did not really matter, I had to try atleast something or I would blame myself for the rest of my life. And despite that lot of fears, insecurities, basically everyone telling and warning of not becoming some sort of freak - it turned out quite good. Or at least, waaay better than I did expect :).
I'd be so much happier if my dysphoria just disappeared tomorrow, but... arggh.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on January 06, 2015, 03:13:56 PM
And we can only be happy when we are whole as persons, not divided or torn by internal fears, struggles and issues.
Almost two years ago, I kept looking in the mirror, searching for answers and the more I stared at my reflection, the unhappier I became. It all reached the point when I could not even look at women on streets without tears. At that point, it did not really matter, I had to try atleast something or I would blame myself for the rest of my life. And despite that lot of fears, insecurities, basically everyone telling and warning of not becoming some sort of freak - it turned out quite good. Or at least, waaay better than I did expect :).
That bolded part, I fear that I'm getting there. It
really worries me as I already have a hard enough time looking at girls just being girls, it doesn't really take much for me to feel bad about myself. I'm ok for now, but thinking about my future really scares me :(
Quote from: Cin on January 06, 2015, 03:45:21 PM
I'd be so much happier if my dysphoria just disappeared tomorrow, but... arggh.
That bolded part, I fear that I'm getting there. It really worries me as I already have a hard enough time looking at girls just being girls, it doesn't really take much for me to feel bad about myself. I'm ok for now, but thinking about my future really scares me :(
All I can say - once You hit or reach a certain threshold things can and do only get better!
I've always wondered if I started a family if that would take my mind off transitioning, the replies here helped answer my question ;)
Quote from: alena on January 06, 2015, 04:00:06 PM
I've always wondered if I started a family if that would take my mind off transitioning, the replies here helped answer my question ;)
It would also complicate Your transition tremendously.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on January 06, 2015, 03:53:23 PM
All I can say - once You hit or reach a certain threshold things can and do only get better!
I just hope this threshold is not around the corner, as I'm not ready yet :)
I did hit another kind of threshold about a year ago, when I finally decided to interact with other transgender folk to learn about myself and I feel so much better about myself these days.
very true!
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on January 06, 2015, 04:03:31 PM
It would also complicate Your transition tremendously.
Ye I think I'm leaving this alone. It's just not worth it. My starting point is too bad. Maybe there is a smalll chance that at some point in the future after years of hormones and if I've somehow managed to save up for extensive surgery that I could look ok enough that I'd be happy walking down the street. But even getting to that point id say would be less than 50/50. A lot less. Given everything I'd be giving up and how completely traumatic coming out would be for me because of the life I've had its not worth it. I'm always going to wish I was a girl and I'm pretty sure transition isn't going to fix that. I can be happy as a guy again. Or at least happy enough.
Thanks for all the advice.
Quote from: orangejuice on January 06, 2015, 07:19:41 PM
Ye I think I'm leaving this alone. It's just not worth it. My starting point is too bad. Maybe there is a smalll chance that at some point in the future after years of hormones and if I've somehow managed to save up for extensive surgery that I could look ok enough that I'd be happy walking down the street. But even getting to that point id say would be less than 50/50. A lot less. Given everything I'd be giving up and how completely traumatic coming out would be for me because of the life I've had its not worth it. I'm always going to wish I was a girl and I'm pretty sure transition isn't going to fix that. I can be happy as a guy again. Or at least happy enough.
Hi orangejuice,
just in case you come back and read this.
I understand where you are coming from with this as I've been there myself, and am in some ways I am still there. And I can really relate to the "happy enough" part. The perceived cost is simply not worth it. But the big problems really occur if you get more and more desperate over time. Its a pretty unpleasant place to be, but maybe not really understandable until you get there. The balance changes until no matter the cost and loss there's no choice. Or maybe you'll be more fortunate. No way of knowing for sure I guess, except wait and see.
I'm not at that point myself yet, but I'm on the way. I've made myself quite ill by refusing to move forward, and not just mentally ill, but very serious health problems. So I've moved forward a bit (twice now) and I guess you could say I'm happy enough to stop where I am. Not happy about it though, just enough to not go forward any further. There's a price I don't want to pay right now, and I can get by at this point for a while. I'm not expecting too much, and if it gets worse again I've found there's no fighting it. I'll lose, yet again. And while I'm avoiding this, I'm not living the way I'm pretty sure I'd be happy. I regret more than anything not knowing when I was younger and doing something about it, but that's easy to say in retrospect.
You might want to think about disclosing this to you're partner when it comes to it. Lots of people get into a situation with wife and kids when it all blows up, and its not very fair. There's been some posts about this recently.
Each of us have a different story to tell and we all all unique in making this incredible decision. I was an outstanding alpha male with a T count in the 1000 plus and I always had thiis desire to be female secretly. I was just so good at being a male, and outstanding academic and business success, a world class endurance athlete and representing my country in the Ironman world championships BUT I did NOT know there was an option and I thought this this just a quarky sexual fantasy. Then I found out about TGs, dated one and that was it. The cat was out of the bag and I spoke to a therapist some 6 years ago. Once out there was no going back, this is what I am even thoughit took another 4 years to start HRT. The urge just built up to a point that I was getting almost bi polar. We all have doubts in the process but I am so much at peace now that I shudder distressfully remembering who I was. It only get more difficult and let nature take its course, you will know when its time.
I never wanted male features. My deepest desire has always been to be feminine, but I felt like it was unattainable given my unfortunate genetic mishap. Even as a child, I tried to suppress masculine development and play female games sometimes, but it was with puberty at 14-15 that things really got ugly. I did not know why, but suddenly I was suicidal. I was also cutting unwanted body hair, which I saw as "ugly." I did not want to masculinize, but I did not really see myself as a girl, either. They were so much better than me. I socialized with teachers to pass the time and avoided my peers. I was scared of boys because I was so different and got bullied for it, and I was rude to girls because I was so jealous. Then I graduated high school, and soon reached my darkest depth at 19. I was severely depressed, had more suicidal plans, and also completely avoided social situations and developed a succession of eating disorders. I eventually settled on binging and college courses to ease the pain, but it came right back whenever I ate less for even 2 days. Faced with college failure and gender dysphoria at 22, I again considered dying and actually sought help for gender issues. If only I had done my homework then, and realized that good feminization IS possible with hormonal changes alone, I could have been so beautiful. Life could have been great if I had transitioned. Instead, I simply grew my hair and was perceived as effeminate for that reason. Why transition, if I could have my hair and keep my home? Little did I know, I couldn't have my hair. Most of it was lost over time to DHT poisoning, and the rest has almost all disappeared due to a fungal infection. I often denied I was transgender. In fact, I rarely admitted it, but when I look back at the evidence it is very convincing and goes back to age 5. I will be full of self-hate for the rest of my life, all because I ignored my feelings.
To anyone who is undecided, Please do not make my mistake. My thought is if you have ever had any of these types of feelings, then you are probably transgender. Trying to suppress it might make sense for social or economic reasons in the short term, but it WILL come back, and stronger each time. It is who we are, after all. It won't go away forever. As one ages, the cumulative damage from hormonal imbalance grows, and the potential to induce change diminishes. Perhaps the most common regret is not transitioning sooner.
So ye shock if I'm back here questioning again. I can't make up my mind for two minutes. I make a decision based on logic on and then all it takes is to see one female and I feel it all again and want to cry. Cry because I'm not one but also cry because it feels so hopeless. Its impossible. The logical thing to do is surely the right one not based on some unwanted desire. Its the feelings that I choose against the ones that I don't but they are the ones that always seem to win. Its just to hard to see transition as the right thing to do. But I am scared of the future. I have heard all these stories. But how can it be the right decision?
I mean cons- losing the respect of family. My sisters, I have two, always kinda looked up to me as being the cool brother. I was popular, good at sports and I got attention from girls. In a second my relationship with them would be changed forever. Would they see me as a freak? That would be worst case. Best case they would eventually get it but I'm pretty sure they'd forever feel uncomfortable around me. I like that they see me that way and I'd be sad to ruin it. We get on pretty well, to see all that gone, ruined forever, is that worth giving up? My parents give me all the support I could possibly ask for. I'm close to my Mum in particular. Again it would make me sad to just destroy their whole impression of me. The happy memories that I do have are of being that son that they were proud of. They'd support me, but they are pretty straightforward people, the idea that gender isn't as big a thing as society leads us to believe I think would be beyond them. They'd never really get it and never really see me as me again. My one remaining grandparent is the best, the nicest guy, but he wouldn't want anything to do with me. He's just of that generation and backward way of thinking.
losing my friends- I have a group of friends I've known since childhood, half of them since primary school. They are all guys. They are all into sports. They are all that type of guy. Only one or two of them MIGHT get it. And anyway even for those ones, the respect and role I have within the group would disappear in a second. This would literally floor them. I mean floor them. And then once they got up off the floor the jokes would be constant, and until I die. Is it worth that? Giving up being able to laugh and joke and enjoy their company as an equal in return for feeling like a weirdo every time I saw them? Because that is how they would make me feel. My best friend has an Uncle or second cousin or something who is transgender. He's disowned by the family and I only know about it because as young as 10 my friend has endured jokes about it, including from me.
the unwanted attention- I'm not hugely popular or anything like that, in fact secretly I haven't made any new real friends since high school, but because of the success I had as an athlete as a teenager and the school I went to, a lot of people in particular circles in my home city know me. And its the same deal as my friends. All the success as a guy, the role I just sort of fell into growing up, no one will expect this from me. Ex-girlfriends, ex team-mates, they will all think I've had some kind of mental breakdown. And it will be the single most shocking thing that people will have heard. It'll get talked about and joked about a lot. I mean I think of all the gossip I've heard about people that I know and this will top it all. It's not as though I'd be able to do it quietly. All that ridicule from people? How can that be worth it? Especially since I'd be giving up a pretty well respected reputation.
my personal circumstance-I'm 25. I've become increasingly uncomfortable, depressed and mostly insecure about having to find my way in life as a 'guy' and everything that people expect of that, but when I'm 'on', when I'm happy enough to walk out the door, that is still the guy I try to be. Its all I know. I keep the fact that I know I react more to the world in a more female way completely hidden. I'm still financially reliant on my parents to my shame. I blew a Law degree and now I have a year and a half left of a degree in English Literature. I'm so lucky that I still have that chance. But I have no clue where I'm going career wise. I can't picture myself being successful at anything because to be honest I am so completely uncomfortable with who I am and do not have a shred of self-esteem. Not exactly a stable place from which to begin transition.
my interest- I love sports. I love team sports. There's no way I can entertain these thoughts for a second while I'm in that guy environment. The culture just doesn't let that happen. I feel so much shame I want to kill myself. But I love the game itself. And I'm good at it. I'm good at a bunch of sports. I'd be giving up that up'
I'd be so alone-I've been successful in the role that life seems to have given me. I've always felt more comfortable around girls, but my insecurities about being around guys socially growing up wasn't really there. That has only been as a young adult and realising all the dumb stuff about what it means to become a 'man'. Stuff all my friends seem to like but I find embarassing. But the point is as a result growing up I never needed to make female friends. I mean I hung out with girls but only really in groups. Its not as though if I came out I'd suddenly have a bunch of sympathetic people getting in touch. That is really where i feel different to every story I've ever heard. I don't have any arty friends or gay friends or anything like that. Even just friends who don't conform so much to stupid stereotypes. I'd be tearing up the respected image that I have, I'd be seen as a freak by many, and I'd be going into transition completely alone.
the way I look- I'm not going to pass. It's not impossible but its unlikely. I know people don't seem to like discussing the whole passing thing, but it just feels so important to me. I talk about my friends and people who know me. Passing is the difference between, 'have you heard about OJ? He's a woman now its crazy' and 'have you heard about OJ? he lost it walks around in womens clothing its crazy'. Most people have transphobia. Its not their fault. If I could go home to family and look like a girl, they' be more accepting, that is just true. Its not fair but its true.
And then you have the pros- Quieting the constant desire that makes me feel so sad and hopeless. That's pretty much it. Losing all the shame I feel about knowing I'm more like a female deep down, well will that go away if I look in the mirror and still see a guy? And know that others still see a guy?
I'm terrified. All the evidence suggests it won't go away. It's already ruining my life. But look at all the cons versus the pros? How can that be worth it?
I can only talk about my own experiences of course OJ, but for me I had a huge list of cons too, including my own family. As the dyshoria and general unhappiness increased for me, so the power of those cons lessened. I just picture it as a pair of scales, eventually they'll tip.
Fear is a powerful force and that's what has a grip of you now, fear of losing everything and everyone, fear of ridicule etc. Fear has it's place and can even be useful of course, but it can also stop you living, if you let it.
Only you can decide the outcome of the pro's and con's weigh up, but consider this, as you progress through life you will gather more 'losable' things, friends, family, work etc.
It's never an easy decision but it's one better made early than late.
Good luck babe :)
Quote from: alena on January 06, 2015, 04:00:06 PM
I've always wondered if I started a family if that would take my mind off transitioning, the replies here helped answer my question ;)
That made it worse for me, especially since I have two daughters and I get to see what a cis female version of me essentially would be like.
Don't get me wrong, I love my family to pieces. It does however complicate transition.
Please see a therapist, be honest with them and yourself. Don't spend fifty years grieving the girl that never was while trying to be the man you can never be.
It's going to get a lot worse, but then you have the hope of it getting better. All along, nothing is entirely in your hands. Good luck, it's a crazy ride.
I can sense the frustration and unhappiness in your posts, Orangejuice. I can relate to a lot of what you said. I'm still single, but My guess is that those with family will come to a point where they feel that risking their family and 'normal' life is too great a risk, or they just can't deal with being in the wrong body anymore. I wonder if a compromise is possible somehow, but it's not really possible to make everyone happy. The fact that you listed out both your cons and pros in details tells me how much you've thought about this and think about this everyday, but in the end only you can decide, people can only give you advice.
Hi orangejuice,
you speak of logic, but I think I hear fear speaking instead. I think logic would say you're either transgender or not, and if you are then depending where you are on the spectrum you'll manage to get by without transitioning, or not.
If you're like many others speaking here then logic says, to me at least, that its not a question of choosing if you'll transition or not, the only question is when you do it. If you do get to that point then you'll risk throwing away everything you have and still do it, and there's a good chance that afterwards you'll be happy you did. For those in this situation there's no summing up what you'll lose and logically saying it too much - I guess its not something you can really appreciate yet, and lets hope you never do.
Perhaps logic says you should wait until it gets bad, because maybe it won't. If it does get bad then you'll be a lot worse of because everyone like that regrets not doing something about it earlier, but maybe you'll be lucky. But fear also tells us to wait, and its hard to tell the difference.
I think logic also suggests that you should see a gender therapist or psychiatrist and try to understand your situation better. I don't really know if you can get an answer out of that, but it seems the best option at this point. I don't know how to explain why, but I found it a great help.
I too thought I had several, very rational reasons to not transition. It never seemed worth it until I started to go bald. Now I know just what I was missing out on all those years, what could have been a beautiful life that I instead spent in despair.
Quote from: orangejuice on January 07, 2015, 07:09:35 PM
I mean cons- losing the respect of family. My sisters, I have two, always kinda looked up to me as being the cool brother. I was popular, good at sports and I got attention from girls. In a second my relationship with them would be changed forever. Would they see me as a freak? That would be worst case. Best case they would eventually get it but I'm pretty sure they'd forever feel uncomfortable around me. I like that they see me that way and I'd be sad to ruin it. We get on pretty well, to see all that gone, ruined forever, is that worth giving up? My parents give me all the support I could possibly ask for. I'm close to my Mum in particular. Again it would make me sad to just destroy their whole impression of me. The happy memories that I do have are of being that son that they were proud of. They'd support me, but they are pretty straightforward people, the idea that gender isn't as big a thing as society leads us to believe I think would be beyond them. They'd never really get it and never really see me as me again. My one remaining grandparent is the best, the nicest guy, but he wouldn't want anything to do with me. He's just of that generation and backward way of thinking.
I thought my family would hate me and abandon me too, but I was pleasantly surprised. My mother and sister turned out to be supportive, and even my right-wing father who pays most bills prefers not to talk about it; he has not tried to disown me or even really argue much. Family concerns were one of the reasons I hesitated, a decision I will regret all my life. I am still financially dependent on them largely because gender dysphoria (and secondary physiological and mental problems stemming from living in the wrong body) left me un-employable, and it took me 8 years to end up with a 4-year college degree. I can never get a job until I stop the T poisoning, and while I am on HRT already, it does not seem to be helping much.
Quotelosing my friends- I have a group of friends I've known since childhood, half of them since primary school. They are all guys. They are all into sports. They are all that type of guy. Only one or two of them MIGHT get it. And anyway even for those ones, the respect and role I have within the group would disappear in a second. This would literally floor them. I mean floor them. And then once they got up off the floor the jokes would be constant, and until I die. Is it worth that? Giving up being able to laugh and joke and enjoy their company as an equal in return for feeling like a weirdo every time I saw them? Because that is how they would make me feel. My best friend has an Uncle or second cousin or something who is transgender. He's disowned by the family and I only know about it because as young as 10 my friend has endured jokes about it, including from me.
If those guys can't accept your true feelings, are they really friends? You probably would lose them, but being truer to yourself would give you the opportunity to make new friends who understand you better. I have not had a friend since I turned 13, largely because I was unwilling to socialize in a male body with all the false impressions it would invoke; I felt like the person people saw when they looked at me was totally inconsistent with my feminine vision of myself. I have also found that the female hormone makes me feel more like a woman; I lost interest in male activities fairly quickly when I reached a meaningful level, although I am talking about stuff like walking alone - not intensely masculine stuff like hanging out with guys for sports, which I never did anyway.
QuoteAnd it will be the single most shocking thing that people will have heard. It'll get talked about and joked about a lot. I mean I think of all the gossip I've heard about people that I know and this will top it all. It's not as though I'd be able to do it quietly. All that ridicule from people? How can that be worth it? Especially since I'd be giving up a pretty well respected reputation.
The criticism usually goes away after a while. It can be difficult, but if you want to see the rainbow, you may have to tolerate the rain.
QuoteBut the point is as a result growing up I never needed to make female friends. I mean I hung out with girls but only really in groups. Its not as though if I came out I'd suddenly have a bunch of sympathetic people getting in touch. That is really where i feel different to every story I've ever heard. I don't have any arty friends or gay friends or anything like that. Even just friends who don't conform so much to stupid stereotypes. I'd be tearing up the respected image that I have, I'd be seen as a freak by many, and I'd be going into transition completely alone.
I thought I was going it alone too, another reason I waited so long. Then I found a caring therapist, this site, and even unexpected acceptance from female family members - all positive relationships that were totally unexpected when I decided to transition, but very real now.
Quotethe way I look- I'm not going to pass. It's not impossible but its unlikely. I know people don't seem to like discussing the whole passing thing, but it just feels so important to me. I talk about my friends and people who know me. Passing is the difference between, 'have you heard about OJ? He's a woman now its crazy' and 'have you heard about OJ? he lost it walks around in womens clothing its crazy'. Most people have transphobia. Its not their fault. If I could go home to family and look like a girl, they' be more accepting, that is just true. Its not fair but its true.
Like me a few years ago, you seem to underestimate the power of hormones. The body really does change over even just a few months when taking Estrogen and blocking testosterone. Most people here who transition in their 20s become very passable, even if they started out quite masculine. The prospects for passing do however diminish with age. The longer one waits, the harder it gets.
QuoteAnd then you have the pros- Quieting the constant desire that makes me feel so sad and hopeless. That's pretty much it. Losing all the shame I feel about knowing I'm more like a female deep down, well will that go away if I look in the mirror and still see a guy? And know that others still see a guy?
I saw a guy in the mirror in July and it broke my heart. Now after several months of HRT, I see something different and it actually cheers me up instead of bringing me down, and I am older than you are. There are also many other ways to feminize one's appearance that you just won't know about as long as you try to live as male. I learn more every month.
It gets stronger for sure. I started cross dressing around the age of 10 or so( Im 42 now)in secret of course. And been hiding it ever sence. Every single day every hour the thought of wanting to be a women is killing me. I came out to my wife one month ago and it's been up and down but that's another story. I started seeing a therapist one month ago cause I had to tell someone that would not judge me. I have tried to suppress the thoughts my whole life by racing bmx and motocross and other extreme sports.But even during a race the thoughts are still there. Im also in the Army (11B) with deployments and never feared death, i hate my self anyways right. I'm married with three boys and I am so scared of losing my family if I transition but I don't know how long I can suppress the women inside.
I am one more person who can testify to dysphoria being progressive and persistent through life. I will be 64 next March. Like so many here I knew as a kid I was different and actually believed I would magically become a girl and mom until puberty crushed that idea. Then I tried periodically to be like the man people expected with a kind of overcompensation many of us can relate to. I have been materially successful with a great career and enjoyed a very full social life. I was happy plenty but anxiety and fear about my intimate life and sense of self eventually become crippling. 'She' became my shadow but never left until i could set myself free. Being transgender before and after transition doesn't mean it has to dominate our lives. i threw myself into community activism which i still love. I am also one who feels she has gained far far more than I have lost. Sure it is a challenge and most worthwhile achievements are. I would say that it gets better with age as we have had opportunities to develop some coping skills and answer other fundamental life questions. Trans or not we still have people to meet, a mouth to feed and roof to maintain eh?
I can only imagine how different life might have been if a forum like this with so many knowledgable and experienced contributors was available in my youth. You are priceless people and this community support saves and changes lives.
The wavering and wondering are part of the journey OJ. Thanks for the question and your thoughtful responses.
Like Bailey Jay said, your desire to transition isn't going away. Tick tock, tick tock.
( true )* infinity
I'll add to the pile up...
Did the dysphoria get worse? Probably no. What got worse... Waaaay Worse, were all the other problems of not handling the dysphoria led to. They led to having to really do something about it rather then continuing telling myself "It aint all that bad"
In my early 20's I twice experimented with transitioning. Both times stopping to be a "Normal(ish)" male. At 6ft tall, balding fast, big boned, deep voice, big feet and hands in a world of 5'5" women my age any thoughts of passing was fantasy. I learned as a kid standing out was not a good thing. I wasn't going to volunteer for a lifetime of it if it could be avoided.
So instead I threw my energy into another passion, electronics. I had a job that was more like getting paid to have fun. Over time I became quite good to great at it. Traveled the world to see key customers, design a bunch of cool award winning medical products. Been involved with all manner of crazy leading edge BIG physics research machines. Any outside observer would say I was doing great. I felt nothing. All diversions and distractions to help feed my denial. All the accomplishments meant nothing. It wasn't the real me, the complete me.
Then finally the excrement hit the air handler. At 50+ and the peak of my career as VP of Engineering most of that world disappeared in an instant. Suddenly I was working several states away at a mindless job. A very shakey long distance marriage to a semi-invalid semi-suicidal wife. No longer the super hero engineer. Just another chipped cog in the industrial military complex. I suddenly found myself with way too much free time. Then came the way too much dysphoria, worse then ever before, or since.
I needed to do something different. I made changes. Got into touch with my true self. I knew I needed to bring those two great and important aspects of myself together into one whole, healthy, and happy person. Some 5-6 years latter I think I am about there. I still present and live as a male. My wife is not thrilled about some of the things I needed to do to manage the dysphoria, but is very pleased with the results of the new me.
Nobody sane wants to be trans. Having to transition to full-time is no easy undertaking. Luckily I have not (yet) reached the "Have to" point. I would love to mainly to feel 100% genuine. I'd settle for a bit less then 100% while I can. Sure beats the 0% I was running for over 30 years. There are other more important things in my life that need to be addressed before I can consider it.
For all I've learned in my meager 20 years of existence, I've come to understand that anything you try to repress will keep coming back, and probably stronger each time. It's also a basic fact of psychology. That's pretty much the reason I don't want to push my own feelings aside, because I know they'll come back. My whole questioning journey actually started a few months back when a repressed memory resurfaced, and suddenly everything started making sense. I wouldn't wanna end up doing that to myself again.
It seems to get worse with each passing day for me. I think physical appearance has something to do with it.
I didn't have dysphoria this bad when I was 16 or 14.
As my secondary male characteristics become more 'prominent' with age, it makes it harder and harder for me to connect with my inner self. The disconnect between my inner self and my outer shell is worse now than it was a few years ago, and it looks like it will keep getting worse, but that's just how my dysphoria manifests itself in me. Some don't feel as strongly about their bodies, but they have dysphoria in other ways.
It certainly does not get better.
Quote from: Cin on February 03, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
It seems to get worse with each passing day for me. I think physical appearance has something to do with it.
I didn't have dysphoria this bad when I was 16 or 14.
As my secondary male characteristics become more 'prominent' with age, it makes it harder and harder for me to connect with my inner self. The disconnect between my inner self and my outer shell is worse now than it was a few years ago, and it looks like it will keep getting worse, but that's just how my dysphoria manifests itself in me. Some don't feel as strongly about their bodies, but they have dysphoria in other ways.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you said, and that is why I think people should transition as soon as they know they are trans. When living with the wrong hormones, the body is constantly under assault from the inside, and the damage is cumulative over time.
Although male puberty did make me suicidal at 14-15, I got over it when I realized I did not look like a man anyway. When I was in high school, I could live with being 'male' because my features were so neutral and maintaining a borderline low weight prevented male development. Indeed, I was so neutral-looking at 19 (small frame, even had temporary breast growth for a month) that I wondered if I even
was fully male. Still, I was depressed and suicidal again because I could not feminize. Weight gain at 19-20 caused masculinization, but that stopped when I eliminated cheese from my diet (saturated fat raises testosterone) and lost a few pounds. At 22, even though my features were still fairly neutral, I again wanted to die because I felt no hope of ever living as female. If I had transitioned then, I would have been a beautiful woman by now. Instead, I escaped to my studies, outdoor activity, and binge eating, gaining weight and going bald in the process. It was not until I was 27 and less than one year away from total baldness that I finally realized 'mind over matter' was not working, and decided I was "better dead than bald." The sudden sense of urgency brought me to gender therapy with intent to transition. I might still be able to pass if I lose weight, remove my facial hair, practice my voice, and get a wig, but it would be so difficult, and I am not sure I want to try - especially with regard to the fake body parts.
The moral here is that my transgender feelings never went away, and my dysphoria only became worse as testosterone continued to ruin my body.
By transitioning sooner, I could have slayed the beast of dysphoria. Now it will haunt me forever. All because I missed my 'window of opportunity' to feminize. No one should have to suffer that fate. :(
Ye this above is what really has lead me to realise I could be trans, except for me I was never too feminine looking. I got big and tall at 12-13. But still if I'd realised this stuff at 18 or something my face could have totally passed I'd have just been a lot bigger than most girls. Now my facial features are beyond repair and my hair is getting to that critical point too, if not already. I didn't know I was trans before. Its so cruel that it seems for a lot of people the catalyst to realising is actually reaching the point where transitioning successfully, at least outwardly, is impossible.